← Second in Command: The Chief Behind the Chief with Cameron Herold
Second in Command: The Chief Behind the Chief with Cameron Herold
Ep. 472 - Pepper Construction Senior Vice President of High Performance and Sustainable Construction, Susan Heinking
00:41:24
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- [00:00]
Cameron Herold
Hey, it's Cameron Herald, the host of the Second in Command podcast. Before we dive in, there's something you need to know. If you're a coo, VP Operations, or you're in any role where you're the second in command to the CEO, the COO alliance is the place for you. If you're the integrator to the visionary, you're going to want to join us. The COO alliance is the world's leading community for the second in command. We've had over 500 members like you join from 17 countries to grow their skills, connections and confidence. You'll get the tools, friendships, and a 10x guarantee to ensure that you get your money's worth. Go to cooalliance.com to learn more and see if you qualify. You can even book a free call with our team to ask questions. Now, let's jump into this week's episode.
- [00:44]
Susan Heinking
I walked past somebody that I probably needed an answer for and I didn't even say good morning. I just spat out the question like, hey, do you know where? And he stopped me and he goes, good morning, Susan. And it like, oh my gosh, I am being way too serious. And somebody's like, you have to keep it light. Like, don't forget to keep it light. And so I think like, that's probably the best piece of advice I ever got as a younger person to like to keep it light. Welcome to the Second in Command podcast produced by the COO alliance and brought to you by its founder, Cameron Herold. In the second in command podcast, we talk to top COOs who share the insights, strategies and tactics that made him the chief behind the chief. And now, here's your host, Cameron Herold.
- [01:43]
Cameron Herold
Today I'm joined by Susan Heinking, the Senior Vice President of High performance and Sustainable Construction at Pepper Construction. In this conversation, I take you behind the scenes of Susan's incredible leadership journey. Susan opens up about what it takes to scale within a long established company while staying true to its core values. We talk about how intentional communication, adaptability, and a deep sense of purpose guide her leadership of a high performing team. You'll hear how she manages complexity without losing sight of the passion that drives her work. We get into the strategies she uses for delegation, how she fosters a culture of self awareness, and how her team stays aligned with bigger goals while continuing to evolve. We also explore how Susan embraces failure, rethinks collaboration, and even uses small moments of levity to keep things grounded under pressure. Whether you're leading a team or looking to Grow into a leadership role. This episode is full of thoughtful insights, practical tools, and a few surprises. Let's dive in. So, Susan, welcome to the Second in Command podcast.
- [02:47]
Susan Heinking
Thank you for having me.
- [02:49]
Cameron Herold
Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. I can't think back. I think we've done 450 episodes and I don't think we've done anyone who is operating at the level that you're operating at in terms of the construction industry, and especially someone who's in kind of the sustainability side of construction industry. I first got exposed to sustainability back in 2004. 2005, we were building our new office for 1-800-got- junk and, and Brian, our CEO wanted something that was kind of sustainable. Didn't even know what that meant. And we had this team come in and they looked at every single potential part of the office and kind of what we created was an unbelievable space. But can you talk to us a little bit about that? Because I know that's something that's really core to you and I'm going to kind of ask a bunch of questions around that.
- [03:36]
Susan Heinking
Sure. Well, since 2004, sustainability has really kind of evolved into what we consider it today and, and how we define it. But back in the 90s, early 2000, sustainability was really looking at energy efficiency and how we can save energy with, through our buildings and how can we save water. And it was really, if you can think about it, it was planet driven. You know what?
- [04:04]
Cameron Herold
Yeah, we did stuff with. Our floors were made out of bamboo and our, our materials on the walls were some special material.
- [04:11]
Susan Heinking
Right, right. So it's like all about saving resources. And so that kind of kicked it off. And the United States Green Building Council, or the USGBC for short, created a building rating system called leap. And it really just gave everybody a guidebook on, oh, you want a sustainable building, follow these principles, do these things. And at the end of the day, depending on how many you do, you get a light green to a deeper green. You know, they had ratings from certified to platinum, but you know, you get a score, you get a nice little plaque, something to show off on your wall for when people visit your building. And so over time, you know, as we learn more about climate change and we are now experiencing pretty strong weather events and the intensity of weather and how building codes have to evolve in regards to that, sustainability has really kind of taken a turn to resilience. So how do we bounce back quickly from a hurricane or a flood or tornado or a wildfire that, you know, LA just went through or is, you know, still reeling from. But it also, I think when the pandemic hit, it was kind of in sustainability's favor because we already knew that green buildings were good for the environment. But we also know that sustainable buildings or green buildings are good for human health because we spend 90% of our time indoors. And so if we're going to surround ourselves with products, right, the buildings are made up of, they should be healthy, non toxic products. And so when that pandemic hit and we all were stuck inside, we all started learning about mechanical systems and air quality and how do we, you know, make our space healthier for ourselves. And so with that, you know, sustainability evolved to human health. Not only just planet health, but human health. And now you kind of have the convergence of the two today. You know, it was really strong in architecture, which it still is in the design industry. Construction was a little bit slower. Coming up to understanding, you know, what does sustainability mean to me on the job site? You know, what does it have to do with what I'm doing? And so where I work, where I sit, coming from the architecture side, going into construction side, being able to kind of bridge that gap and that understanding that, you know, job sites are workplaces too and that we should be having healthy job sites and building sustainable buildings.
- [06:52]
Cameron Herold
That'S a really interesting approach for, or kind of an extension, I guess, from, from the core. And yeah, you're right. When we were building our, the head office for 1, 800 got junk. I do remember a lot of the focus was around people. We weren't necessarily trying to win an award for the space. We ranked the year before as the number two company in all of Canada to work for. And I know that we were trying to build a workplace that felt environmentally friendly but was also, you know, for the people, was the lighting was better, the the sound was better, that you kind of had that feng shui feeling kind of coming into it. And then they incorporated some of the stuff around sustainability. Where do companies go wrong with this stuff? Where do they end up either wasting time or money or energy around it?
- [07:34]
Susan Heinking
I think that we're all still figuring it out. We have a lot of science backed initiatives that we can go off of, but it also has to be met with budget and it has to be economical. And I think a lot of times in the sustainability world, we have a lot of data that we're trying to sift through and make sense of and then explain to people and we can kind of get in our own way with terminology and just really really nerding out on, you know, the topic of sustainability in the environment. I think we still have that presumption that sustainability has to cost more. That's only true depending on what you're comparing it against. You know, like, so if you're building hospital, for example, there's a lot of evidence based solutions that healthcare follows to help patients heal quicker and have better healing environments that are sustainable. So it's something, it's something that we need to work through to say, okay, what's the low hanging fruit that we're already doing that's sustainability driven? And then above and beyond that, you know, what are we doing and how can we do it in a more economical fashion? So I think like that's where we are still struggling a little bit in the industry, getting people to kind of wrap their heads around that as a.
- [08:53]
Cameron Herold
Layman and somebody who's, who's certainly not in this space at all. My guess is that a lot of the products for construction now that are sustainable are meeting the same pricing pretty close as the non sustainable, aren't they? Like having a lot of the products come pretty darn close to being the same price or close enough within reason.
- [09:11]
Susan Heinking
I think that you've got, depending, you could have a 3% or 5% premium. I would guess it's in line with what we're seeing with inflation and any sort of upcoming tariffs. Right.
- [09:23]
Cameron Herold
So not like 50% like it would have been 20, 30 years ago.
- [09:27]
Susan Heinking
Oh no, no. Yeah, you don't have that much of a gap that you have to close.
- [09:32]
Cameron Herold
Because I think that was the old excuse, right. Is it seemed like everything was going to be so expensive to use it. So people just kind of said, oh, I'm not going to bother. And now it's really not that expensive as an excuse anymore. But it sounds like one of the excuses was to get buy in from the team or from the company. This is a movement that I think you brought to Pepper Construction too, did you not? Or is it a movement that was kind of happening at the company?
- [09:55]
Susan Heinking
So I think sustainability in general was happening in the market. And when I came on to Pepper Construction, a lot of the drive was around a green building certification. So if the client asked you for it, that's when you would jump on and go ahead and follow that green certification. What I brought to the table was really trying to understand how do we go to our clients with these ideas, not just wait to be asked and looking at doing that, you know, trying to close that economical or budget gap and saying okay, if you put in this strategy now, here's the savings over the long term and really like looking at different ROI or return on investment scenarios. I think a lot of time as contractors we're asked to price out different alternates, so different mechanical systems side side by side. And with that it takes time to understand. Well, I could give you the first cost right off the bat, right, the construction cost, but you're going to be holding onto that mechanical system for the next 10, 15, 20 years. You need to really understand what that long term investment is on those different scenarios going forward, we would typically rely on the mechanical engineer to run an energy model to tell us what that was going to be. But that took a lot of time and we need to make, we need to have answers so clients can make decisions. So we actually built our own energy modeling tool in house that could quickly model different mechanical scenarios tied to our construction pricing database so that clients could just look at it and understand, you know, the information straight ahead, what their future utility going to be.
- [11:43]
Cameron Herold
Great.
- [11:43]
Susan Heinking
What is their first construction cost going to be and what is that resulting ROI and payback period. And so just kind of like challenging assumptions or maybe confirming assumptions. You know, it's just putting the numbers side by side so they can make the information or that informed decision. And what I discovered was that doing letting the data talk for me, I didn't really have to say anything. It was kind of proving itself out. And so I used, I took that lesson and have just kind of recycled it over and over again with different initiatives through the construction industry and what we want to push and strive for.
- [12:28]
Cameron Herold
That's amazing. I really love that approach actually of then you're not having to sell it at all. You're letting the client buy themselves into the process. When it comes down to the work site sustainability and building that kind of approach, how does your company rationalize that? Or is that just again building one of the best companies to work for and just taking care of people and you're gonna have less sick days and happier employees and better productivity. Is that kind of the approach from it?
- [12:52]
Susan Heinking
Well, I think when you look at job sites, they're not the easiest work environments.
- [12:58]
Cameron Herold
Right.
- [12:58]
Susan Heinking
To show up at. And safety number one priority. Right. And so when we look at safety, it's usually looking at like everybody goes home safe at night. And one thing that's not necessarily looked at often is the long term health effects of that job site and that hard work on your body over time. And when I say job sites or workplaces too I mean, that like the people who work and build the buildings that we occupy every day, that is their work site. It might seem temporary to you because you're just watching the building get erected, but the person that's hanging that steel is just going to another job site to erect more steel on it, you know, in a different location. The scene never changes that person, you know. And so we wanted to look at health on the job site through a safety lens because it's really kind of looking at your, the safety of your health and your well being. And how we did that was. I don't know if you've ever walked on a job site.
- [14:08]
Cameron Herold
I've done a few.
- [14:10]
Susan Heinking
Okay, so they're not very glamorous. They can be hot, they can be cold or dirty. A job site trailer is probably less than desired working environment. You know, you don't have the best lighting, you don't wood paneling. And so we decided to kind of reinvent the job site trailer and look at like, okay, how far can we push this, the bar, you know, what, what can't be done or what? And so we design and built in house a class A office space that is a job site trailer. And we call it our Net Zero trailer. And so it's got passive house standard walls, has VRF systems, we have 27 solar panels on the roof powering the thing. So it's completely off the grid. We built a little nice kitchenette. So you have a full size fridge, you know, in there and you know, coffee maker and somewhere to like microwave your lunch. And so just really look, we have bamboo floors, just like your first office space. So just like really looking at like what a job site trailer could be. And we unveiled it in 2018 at Green Build and in Chicago. And we got calls all over the country asking if we could build, you know, other general contractors, these trailers, which unfortunately we weren't actually in the trailer right, you know, market. So we actually partnered up with a trailer manufacturing out of St. Louis. So if somebody wants a Net Zero trailer, they can call Craftsman Industries and they will build you your very own Net Zero trailer. We shared all of the documents, all the drawings with them.
- [15:54]
Cameron Herold
So I love it.
- [15:55]
Susan Heinking
Everybody is like open to do it. And it's just gotten a lot. It's gotten a lot of press and it's currently sitting at the Columbus Zoo right now in Ohio. And I'm proud to say it's been through two polar vortexes and it has done just fine. And everybody's inside with their coats off, being Comfortable. So I think like that was kind of the testament to, you know, does this thing actually do its job and then it does.
- [16:21]
Cameron Herold
Well, I love that the company is actually thinking about sustainability and thinking about health and thinking about this, this whole kind of area across the entire business. You're not just looking at building a building. I'm friends with the CEO of a company in Dubai building a company called Iowa. I'll drop the link into their to the chat for you to take a look at and I'll put it in the show notes. This building that they're building is off the charts. I think it just won the international building of the, of the year, like globally this year. You know, the water is being blessed, there's crystals at certain parts of the building like that. It's, it's ridiculous what they're doing. Like it's at another level. But I don't know if the job site's any better. Right. I think what their end product is going to look good, but I think their job site's a job site. I think what you guys are looking at is probably what matters even more. Because when you start that trickle up approach where every single employee is feeling cared for, they're going to put more work into or you know, more performance into the work. I think you're actually going to see some of your costs come down because your labor and your people care more. The cost of building these places is actually going to equalize. So I think you're doing some good stuff. Can you talk about what it's like working inside of a male dominated industry as a woman, as a female leader, or is it still male dominated?
- [17:34]
Susan Heinking
It's still male dominated. It's not as much as when I started, you know, when I went to, to school for architecture. I was I think one of five females in my class. And so just kind of coming up the ranks through my career, you know, I see more females being like elevated. It's funny in sustainability there's more females than there are males in this space, which you know, kind of flips the script. But as far as construction, you would think, oh, you know, it's male dominated on the job site, so it's a boys club. But I have not experienced that.
- [18:12]
Cameron Herold
Good. Okay.
- [18:14]
Susan Heinking
Yeah. So I think just having more. I love seeing women on the job site, especially as a foreman or a laborer. Working with their hands on a job site I think is very empowering. We do a lot of work with organizations that are focused on getting females into the construction industry and into any Other stem related industry, which I think is very, very important for girls to have exposure to. I think my generation and generations after mine have just been able to take advantage of a lot of opportunities that generations before us kind of broke that glass ceiling for us to take advantage of that really, really grateful for. So I want to do my part for, you know, the next generation coming up after me.
- [19:05]
Cameron Herold
Talk to us about working with the CEO of the organization. What's it like working day to day with the CEO and then do you ever, do you ever battle with them around this area? Are you guys completely in alignment now?
- [19:17]
Susan Heinking
So this is a family owned business. So I think you have to kind of go in to that. So not that a family owned business is any more important than any other company, but I think that there's an extra level of ownership there, right? That's kind of like you grew. This is the fourth generation is in this company. So it's like you're born into it. You literally are born into it if you are a pepper, right? And it's kind of just part of that family dynamic, a non family member. You know, I think going into it, you have to respect that, right? That there's that, that culture, that family owned culture. And working with the CEO, you know, at first, you know, it wasn't all like sunshine and butterflies. You know, they have a job to do running this company, they've got to read the market, they need to understand financials, they need to do what they think is best for the company with the information that they have at hand. And when I first met the CEO, you know, like I'm just coming in brand new and he's been here basically his entire life, right? Because his dad was the CEO of the company and his grandpa was the CEO of the company. Now he's just next in line. And so talking about sustainability, what I learned was it wasn't about sustainability, it was about, to him it was about air quality and looking at, okay, what is our air quality? And he's noticing that the air pollution is getting worse, right? And so we didn't even talk about how buildings are connected to that. We just talked about air pollution and where is the air pollution coming from? And then he had a comment about, well, we're just getting a lot of rain lately and our job sites are really, really flooded and we've got to do something about it, right? So he was more talking about like the impact of all these things and where I'm coming from is the preventative of all those things. And so I kind of had to flip my script with him to focus on what he cared about at that moment and then tie it back to, okay, well, this is why sustainability is important. This is why sustainability can mitigate the air quality or the flooding on the job sites. And this is why we do the things we do. And once I was able to kind of connect air pollution to carbon emissions and greenhouse gases and how everything was getting trapped and then talk about how buildings are around 40% of those emissions are directly tied to buildings, then it started to, we started to get on that same page and then we talked about, okay, he's like, well, then what can we do about it? You know? And at that time, Paul Hawkins book Drawdown had just come out and it was a book of a hundred strategies on how you could actually reduce carbon being emitted in the atmosphere. And out of those 100 strategies, 25 were building related.
- [22:21]
Cameron Herold
Wow.
- [22:22]
Susan Heinking
So we started talking about, okay, out of those 25, what would make the most sense in the control of a contractor? Like, what can the contractor control? Because we're not designers. And so we went through and we picked five strategies that we would just introduce to our clients. Like, did you know we're raising awareness, we're not trying to push this down your throat. And we developed a model where we would apply those five strategies to our projects that were coming in the door just to show them, if you adapt these, here's what your building could look like and here's the positive impact your building could make over the long term for the health of the occupants, for the health of the planet. And so just kind of meeting him where he was and where his concerns were has allowed me to really kind of understand different people's perspectives and what they care about. Right. But then also kind of learning how to translate sustainability to fit those, those different needs and concerns.
- [23:21]
Cameron Herold
I like that kind of odd g shucks approach to it too, where you're just kind of explaining it and just kind of throwing it out there and seeing how it sticks. And the people that like it, you're going to be able to run with the ones who don't. You can either explain it and try to sell or just kind of move on. Right. But it sounds like this, has this permeated the entire organization. Now, do you think that culturally everyone at Pepper is in line with this or is it still something that's being sold throughout the organization?
- [23:47]
Susan Heinking
I think it has been adopted. It is part of our company's commitment. We track it every year. So we have two company wide Meetings a year. The results of that program are being presented to every employee twice a year. It gets reported to our board once a year. And then we have monthly meetings with each of our company presidents so they can kind of see where they're tracking. So just really building it through. And then I email the entire company once a month just with topics around those five strategies. So they understand any sort of regulation coming down the pipe or new technology or new conversation that they can have with their clients. What a lot of folks have realized is that it gives them kind of new information to reach out to their clients about or learn about their marketplace. And I think that people love to learn new information, and so it kind of keeps it fresh.
- [24:48]
Cameron Herold
Makes sense. Can you speak a little bit around the family business component? I mean, Pepper's not a small company there. How many employees approximately do you think are across the organization?
- [24:57]
Susan Heinking
Well, I guess the fields with the field staff. Yeah, because we have office and field, I think we're, we're close to a little over a thousand people.
- [25:06]
Cameron Herold
Okay.
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Susan Heinking
And we're Midwest based.
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Cameron Herold
Yeah.
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Susan Heinking
So.
- [25:09]
Cameron Herold
So it's not a small company. It's not like it's a, you know, 50 person company where, you know, grandpa's rolling in and mom's sitting there in the book doing the bookkeeping. But there's still a bunch of, as you said, the peppers are still there. There's a bunch of the family people that are still involved. Involved. What are some of the pros and cons of a family business and how do you work around some of the natural stuff? Or is it so big now that the family stuff doesn't really impact the business in a negative way? I mean, my dad sold his company to my brother 15 years ago, but then one day, three years later, my dad went in and fired the bookkeeper. Like, dad, you, you don't work there anymore. You're not allowed to fire the bookkeeper just because she pissed you off seven years ago. But, you know, and then my brother and dad go golfing together that day. Right. So can you speak to some of that family component or have you grown past that now?
- [25:56]
Susan Heinking
Company doesn't, I guess, operate in that sort of grassroots family component way that you just described. It's relatively kind of a straightforward company. If you didn't know it was family owned, I don't think you would know that. It's. It's family owned. Like there's definitely like that culture of support and that Pepper family supports other like your family and supports family life outside of work. So you you feel that, which I think is. It just feels different than a corporate setting, which is where I came from. So it's a little bit more wholesome in, in that regard. But as far as like the business operation acts like any other makes sense company, you know, structure with a board of directors that they report to.
- [26:45]
Cameron Herold
Yeah, so it sounds like you've kind of grown through that, but it still operates with a lot of the Midwest core values, Midwest kind of culture, which is permeated through the organization. What do you focus on day to day? And then how do you kind of orbit the giant hairball? How do you stay out of the, the day to day mess that you could get sucked into?
- [27:03]
Susan Heinking
I have a really hard time doing that because I still love working on project work. So yeah, that's still something. I kind of like to keep my hand in a little bit. And then I think my team probably gets frustrated with me because I get too much into the leads and I do have to pull myself out. But delegating obviously is a huge help. And then just trusting the team that I've developed underneath me. We still have bi weekly meetings with the entire team where it's just kind of, we have an agenda, of course, but then it's like, who needs help? Where? Right? Is it a quick fill in? What do you need? How can we share resources? Here's the bigger company initiative that we're trying to achieve and just doling out assignments in that way and just kind of managing that process. My main job is managing those bigger company initiatives and making sure that those are on track and on time. While everybody in the group is working like day to day on project work directly with clients.
- [28:10]
Cameron Herold
When some of the bigger project initiatives sound like they don't really have a completion date, like there's no way to, to kind of get to perfect. How do you define, you know, what, what the end point is on some of those projects or are they always just kind of stuff we're always going to be working towards?
- [28:29]
Susan Heinking
Well, I'm a big planner, so when we have a big idea. So let's say we have the Net zero trailer. Okay. We knew that the completion date had to be by green build because we're unveiling it at that, that level. And so we made the plan to get that design, to get that built, to get, you know, whatever media coverage we needed to get by that date for green build. And then after that it was like, okay, now we have this thing. Now we got to coordinate. It's got to be usable. It's got to go to a job site. And then we started to coordinate its schedule for the job sites on what job site it was, at what job site it was going to go next. We had a lot of PR and media reach out. So that was kind of like it had an end date. But then it kept living beyond that end date, which I was helping manage. All of those questions and milestone dates of movement around the Midwest to different job sites, other projects that are maybe more data set, like our building energy tool. Right. Like, we have this idea. I try to base every deadline on a quarterly basis. And so if I have my deadline, I'm building out my plan to say, okay, what is the milestone dates that I need this certain program to be done, and what do I want it to look like, what I want it to do? And then I always have a testing period, and depending on what the feedback is, we revamp it, and then we use it, and then we recess and we revamp it. And so it's not like, oh, this project's done. It goes on the shelf and I move on to the next one. It's, this project's done, but it's continuously getting worked on and tweaked. Right. Over time while we kind of take on another big project. And if we have something that we're like, this no longer serves us. Like, we're not afraid to say, well, this no longer serves us.
- [30:26]
Cameron Herold
Sure.
- [30:26]
Susan Heinking
You know, when it was right at the time. Yeah. And then we put it aside.
- [30:31]
Cameron Herold
I think one of the things that we always have to evolve as leaders. Right. Every day the company becomes bigger. Our role takes on more and more responsibility. Curious what you're working on as a leader right now. Where are you working on your skill sets? Where are you continuing to evolve?
- [30:46]
Susan Heinking
You mean my soft skill sets?
- [30:48]
Cameron Herold
Yeah. Software, technical. Sure, both.
- [30:52]
Susan Heinking
So looking at kind of my leadership skill set, one of my staff, she is really big into these personality tests and kind of like using those personality tests to figure out, like, how well can we work together. Right. And so she kind of brought that to me, and I'm like, well, that actually sounds fun. And we could probably learn a lot more from each other and how each other works and how we can kind of plug in. So that's one of the things that we're. We're working on as a team is getting those personality tests out for everybody to take to get our results and then just have a team bonding session to kind of go over and to understand, you know, how I think I work versus how I really Work, there's probably going to be a gap there with what I perceive myself to be versus what others. And so just really kind of working on that and then just letting the team grow and fail on their own but quickly so we can kind of get back to it. You know, like, I think as a leader, especially in a department that you really built up, like from scratch, it's hard to not be a control freak. Right. And so I'm really working on letting go and seeing how others can kind of evolve the department.
- [32:12]
Cameron Herold
I want to ask you about that. I'm going to go back to the personality profiles in a second, but I want to ask about letting the team fail but fail quickly. And it's hard for a leader to do that. Right. To. It's hard for, for a parent to let their kid fall off the bicycle, but then get back up and learn from, from some of that failure and that adversity. And, and it also helps the lessons stick. And how do you rationalize that as a leader? Is it that kind of same approach? And how far will you let someone fail before you'll swoop in to help them?
- [32:41]
Susan Heinking
One, I want to recon. I want them to recognize they failed. Right. I want them to recognize the red flag. I don't want to be the one saying red flag. I won't let it go too long. But if, you know, if they don't recognize it pretty quickly and if it's going to cause any sort of negative backlash from a client or somebody within the company. Right. I'm going to swoop in, correct the situation. If there is some leeway to kind of fail over time, we'll do that. But I'm going to keep checking in with them just to kind of course correct. And I would rather them see the failure versus me pointing out the failure and that. And so trying to kind of lead that conversation in that way to try to get them to not, not like, oh, I am failing, but just to kind of see like, oh, I need a course correct. Or, or I, you know, I need a pivot.
- [33:39]
Cameron Herold
Sure.
- [33:39]
Susan Heinking
I think that that's just hard for any leader to do. You don't want anything to fail, but if you don't allow people to fail in self correct. Then it's always going to be on you. You're never going to be able to have any sort of fallback. You need to have that fallback.
- [34:04]
Cameron Herold
Yeah. And there's also a principle in adult learning that the learner controls the environment. And until the learner has stumbled and failed, they're not open to growth. So sometimes that's the hardest thing. And, but it's interesting because I don't, I don't hear very many leaders that cognizantly are thinking that way, which is nice that you're actually like, are right there and letting them fail. But again, swooping in quickly if need be. Let's go back to the personality profiles. I've been a huge fan of personality profiles for 20 plus years and I've always believed that it's almost like it's not even which one is the right one. It's that every year let's do a different one to learn more about each other, to understand how to work better and collaborate. And one of my COO alliance members the other day came with an idea we use. One of. One of the ones we're working on this year is called the Colby profile. And the Colby profile just teaches you how you initiate projects. So basically it's how does one person start a project versus another person? It's kind of cool. And so what we're doing is plugging it into ChatGPT. We're plugging each person's personality profile and saying, okay, I've got Susan and I've got Cameron. Here's Susan's profile, here's Cameron's profile. How can they work better together? What's going to drive them crazy about each other? And then ChatGPT pops out the hey, it's Cameron. I hope you're loving today's episode. Quick question for you. Does your company have a strong leadership training program in place to grow the skills of everyone who manages people? If you want to help yourself and your company grow, get everyone who manages people learning from my invest in your leaders online training program. There are 12 core leadership skills that I cover online and they're all going to really grow. CEOs pay me $78,000 a year to coach them one on one. And now you can all benefit for 1% of what they pay me. These are the same leadership skills that I created and certified everyone in at 1-800-got junk when I was there as COO. Go to investinyourleaders.com today and use promo code podcast10 before the end of the month to get 10% off each manager you sign up. Now back to the show. Answer. I'm like, whoa. It's like it's the cheat sheets. It's really cool. What profiles are you guys working on right now and how are you kind of taking them next level to grow from them?
- [36:26]
Susan Heinking
Well, we're just starting out, this was not my idea. This was a person on my team's idea. So I said, okay, I'm all for this. This sounds awesome. You go do the research on which profile system you think is going to work best and then please work with HR because I don't want to get in trouble with whatever you choose. So she's working with HR and picking the best one. We are first going to, I mean you talked about starting a project. Our first one is going to be around how each of us learns. And so because I think it's very like we have noticed that we probably each learned in different styles and retain information very differently. Totally. And so when you're collaborating on one project together, we've got to know how each other learns so we can actually sync up and be stronger together. So that's our first profile that we're going to be working on.
- [37:22]
Cameron Herold
I love that. I remember my, my son, when he was in grade five came home in tears and he was really frustrated with his teacher. And I said, what's wrong? He said, I keep asking the math teacher to show me how to do something. And I asked him today three times to show me how to do something. And the teacher kept getting mad saying, I've told you six times how to do this. I'm like, oh my God, you're a visual learner and he's an auditory teacher. You're screwed. And so I went in and talked to the teacher about it. I said, have you recognized a. Been showing like saying show it's. It dumbfounds me. But they haven't. They have an impossible job. It's impossible to be a teacher. I think that's a great starting point. I love the idea of how do we learn because then it's going to open up the differences and then also the similarities, right. The auditory, visual, kinesthetic learners and, and where we are with learning cycles. I want you to go back and give yourself some advice. If you were the 21 or 22 year old, Susan, you're just starting out in your career, what advice would you give the younger you?
- [38:15]
Susan Heinking
I'm going to give myself the best advice I've gotten. I think as a younger person you tend to just. I think younger people tend to be more serious. Right. And just like diligent. And I used to be that way. I used to come into work early and just get straight, you know, to that computer and do whatever assignment I was assigned that day. And earlier in my career I was, it was like 7:30 and I think I was going to the kitchen to get a cup of coffee.
- [38:43]
Cameron Herold
And if you want more leadership tips and systems from me, they're free at YouTube, forward slash amronherald. And that's H E R O L D.
- [38:56]
Susan Heinking
I had already been there for an hour, right. So my brain's already on. And I walked past somebody that I probably needed an answer for. And I didn't even say good morning. I just spat out the question like, hey, do you know where? And he stopped me and he goes, good morning, Susan. And it like dawned on me, like, oh my gosh, I am being way too serious. And somebody's like, you have to keep it light. Like, don't forget to keep it light. You know, like, don't get too funnel vision in what you're, you're doing and like, read the room. And so I think, like, that's probably the best piece of advice I ever got as a younger person to like, understand the people that you're working with and be friendly. And not everything is, you know, a 911 emergency.
- [39:46]
Cameron Herold
Yeah.
- [39:47]
Susan Heinking
And, you know, to keep it like, I Love it.
- [39:50]
Cameron Herold
My 21 year old son's running his own business and has been for a couple years. And he calls it letting European Connor out to play because he, when he lets the European out to play, he has fun. But if he's so serious, he says he ruins everything. So he, a year ago he bought himself and myself something to remind ourselves to let the fun out every day while we're so serious and we have to wear you to use a hello Kitty wallet. So I'm literally like in business settings pulling out a hello Kitty and it's impossible to be serious. When I pull out a hello Kitty wallet and it cracks me up every time I do it, I have to kind of like turn to these other business people and go, none of this matters. And they all kind of crack up too. So I love that advice. Susan, thank you for sharing. Susan Heinking. We've got the senior VP of High performance and sustainable construction at Pepper King. And thank you so much for sharing with us today on the Second Command podcast.
- [40:43]
Susan Heinking
Thank you for having me. I had a good time.
- [40:45]
Cameron Herold
Really appreciate it.
- [40:48]
Susan Heinking
You've been listening to Second in Command, brought to you by COO alliance founder, Cameron Herald. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to, like, share and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and our other podcast streaming platforms. For more best practices from industry leading COOs, visit COOAlliance.com.