Ep. 516 - Imad Jbara - The Shocking Mistakes COOs Make (and How to Avoid Them)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Shocking Mistakes COOs Make (and How to Avoid Them)

Podcast: Second in Command: The Chief Behind the Chief with Cameron Herold
Episode: 516 – Imad Jbara
Recorded: October 7, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this insightful episode, Cameron Herold sits down with Imad Jbara, COO for L2, Infinite Insurance and former COO at Wojo Media, to discuss the often-overlooked yet critical mistakes COOs make—and how to avoid them. The conversation explores practical leadership strategies, building high-performing teams, orchestrating culture change, navigating rapid growth, and the personal evolution required to succeed as a "Chief Behind the Chief." Imad draws from his extensive experience scaling companies alongside household names like Tony Robbins, Grant Cardone, and Alex Hormozi, aiming to share actionable wisdom for fellow COOs and operational leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenges of Culture Shift and Setting Standards

• Initial Hurdles: Imad describes his first major lesson: transitioning into new roles and earning respect, struggling between being "too aggressive or too kind."
  Quote [00:00]:

  “I came in and I was kind of tired of the shit and I was aggressive and it bit me in the ass because the culture then shifted. Great, because now we were defined as [a] standard. But it kind of took a little bit longer for me to build everybody up...” — Imad

• Redefining Expectations: He emphasizes the importance of clearly establishing high standards and not tolerating mediocrity.

2. Diagnosing and Fixing Structural Issues

• On joining Wojo Media, Imad faced a client retention crisis (20%) and chaotic, "pod-like" organizational silos.

• Strategic Steps:

  • Broke down the org chart into distinct departments (copywriting, graphics, media buying).
  • Promoted informal leaders to managers and implemented daily 15-minute huddles.

• Communication Cadence:
  Quote [06:23]:

  “...the agenda for [the huddle] was, ‘What are the problems today? What happened yesterday that was a major issue? What can we do today to make it better? What's the goal for the week?’ ...Let’s focus on the present, brick by brick.”

• Immediate Impact: Client retention jumped from 20% to 80% within six months, tripling revenue.

3. Managing and Removing Toxic Employees

• Imad discusses his approach to handling "cultural cancers."

• Lesson Learned:
  An abrupt, aggressive firing strategy backfired—creating anxiety and a sense of expendability among remaining team members. Quote [11:19]:

  “I came in and I was kind of tired of the shit, and I was aggressive and it bit me in the ass... not everybody was afraid because they felt expendable...the most important currency in a company is safety and security. If your employees feel safe and secure, they will give you the roles.”

• Best Practice: Balance high standards with genuine care and create an environment where employees feel secure.

4. Growing and Empowering Managers & Building SOPs

• Leadership Pipeline:

  • Encouraged managers to create their own SOPs for all aspects of their roles, ensuring the organization wasn’t dependent on any single "irreplaceable" employee.
  • Required managers to present problems with three solutions. Quote [09:18]:

  “A manager tells people what to do. A leader creates individuals that can think for themselves and... move the company forward without them.” — Imad

• Practical Systems: Utilized templates and checklists; lag in KPIs or repeated questions signaled SOP non-compliance.

5. Reflections on Personal Growth and Leadership Style

• Wisdom Over Time: Imad admits that earlier in his career he let ego and impatience dictate his approach, only learning patience, humility, and the importance of teamwork through failure and “pain.”
• Delegating the Ego: Key advice from a mentor—don’t make yourself a single point of failure.
  Quote [15:10]:

  “You just built a liability and you’re bragging about building a liability...it showed me something where I was still the bottleneck.”

6. Feedback, Praise, and Constructive Criticism

• Praise vs. Criticism: Cameron advocates the "positive sandwich" (praise, criticism, praise) to grow confidence and skills, rather than tearing performers down. Quote [17:17]:

  “You have to praise people twice as often as you actually give them criticism...Our job is to grow their confidence, their skills, their confidence, their skills.”

7. Onboarding and Training for Success

• Comprehensive Onboarding:
  • Imad recommends as much time onboarding as spent recruiting, with daily checklists and gradual trust-building.
  • First three months should involve micromanagement to establish standards.
  • Full transparency with new hires—explain micromanagement is for their benefit and trust-building.
• Role Modeling: Leaders should do the job first, document the process, then delegate. Never abdicate training to untrained staff.

8. Coping with Leadership Stress & Mentorship

• Support Systems:
  • Imad emphasizes having a circle of high-level, heart-driven mentors as a “safe space” for voicing doubts and seeking advice.
  • Cites mastering delegation and transparent communication as a constant skill focus.

9. COOs Need Sales Skills

• “You’re literally selling ideas every single day ... If people come in there and they're afraid to sell, this is not the position for you. You can't be a leader.” — Imad [27:02]

10. Navigating AI & Rapid Change

• Facing Employee Fears: Imad addressed AI job-security anxieties by encouraging staff to master AI and expand their capabilities, not hide from the change.
• Transparency: Always communicate looming changes early and honestly, so employees can adapt proactively.

11. Advice to His Younger Self

• Be patient. Growth, trust, and skills only come through enduring the “pain” of failure.
• “If someone gives you advice, just shut up and listen. Especially if there's somebody that you want to switch positions with, please, for the love of God, just shut up and listen.” — Imad [30:34]

12. What’s Next for L2 Infinite Insurance

• Recently secured capital funding (now valued at $18M), Imad is navigating the learning curve of VC-backed growth vs. bootstrapping. He's focused on leveraging mentorship and avoiding common new-COO pitfalls.

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• “A manager tells people what to do. A leader creates individuals that can think for themselves.” — Imad [09:18]
• “The most important currency in a company is safety and security. If your employees feel safe and secure, they will give you the roles.” — Imad [12:15]
• “You are not going to get replaced by AI—you'll get replaced by an employee who’s using AI.” — Cameron [29:11]
• “If you got hit by a bus tomorrow, what happens to the department? ... You just built a liability.” — Imad [15:10]
• “No shot. I don't believe that at all. Because you're literally selling ideas every single day... You can't be a leader if you can't sell.” — Imad [27:02]
• “Be patient. You don't know it all... The only way I learned those skills was through pain, through failure, through losing the opportunities I thought would change my life.” — Imad [29:37]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | | --------------------------------------------- | ---------- | | Initial lessons in cultural shifts | 00:00–02:30| | Diagnosing and repairing structural issues | 02:30–04:30| | Daily huddles and communication routines | 06:00–07:30| | Growing/empowering managers, SOPs | 07:30–10:00| | Removing toxic employees | 10:50–12:30| | Building safety & security in culture | 12:15–13:30| | Feedback, praise, and the “positive sandwich” | 17:17–18:30| | Onboarding & team integration | 21:53–23:30| | Coping with leadership and stress | 24:21–25:30| | Selling as a COO core skill | 27:02–27:25| | Approaching AI and change management | 28:10–29:37| | Advice to younger self, wrapping up | 29:37–31:16|

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Tone & Language

The exchange is energetic, candid, and filled with practical (sometimes blunt) wisdom. Imad is self-deprecating and direct, often using humor and real-life examples. Cameron offers complementing insights with a mentor's voice, balancing praise with reflection.

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Takeaways for COOs & Leaders

• Set clear standards, but anchor them in care.
• Early communication rhythm (daily huddles) is vital for rebuilding structure.
• Accelerate leadership development by making managers think and own their roles.
• Don’t let ego make you a single point of failure—document, systematize, and delegate.
• Nurture your personal growth by seeking mentorship, honest feedback, and continuous learning—especially around sales and change management.
• Face technology shifts (like AI) head on, and guide your team to adapt rather than resist.
• Patience and humility are earned through experience—don’t rush the process.

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For more COO best practices, visit cooalliance.com

Transcript

[A]

This was a very big learning lesson. I think when I first stepped into these kind of roles, even before the company, before that, the hardest part was transitioning into the company and getting the respect. It was like you, it's always, you're either too aggressive or you're too kind. And I learned my lesson with this one. I came in and I was kind of tired of the shit and I was aggressive and it bit me in the ass because the culture then shifted. Great. Because now we were defined as standard. But. But it kind of took a little bit longer for me to build everybody up because you come in there and people are listening and they're just constantly. It's like a laissez faire attitude. And I don't like them companies. I'm like, you guys, I want Apache, I want A players. If you guys are BRC players, I don't want you. So then everybody got nervous like, oh, we went from being lazy and not doing anything to now actually having to work, which is all but a shocker. You're at the job, you shouldn't be working. Welcome to the Second in Command podcast produced by the COO alliance, the and brought to you by its founder, Cameron Herold. In the second in command podcast, we talk to top COOs who share the insights, strategies and tactics that made him the chief behind the chief. And now here's your host, Cameron Herald. My name is Imad Jabara. I have trained the biggest sales teams on the planet, taking companies from seven to eight figures through client retention. I've worked with people like Tony Robbins, Grant Cardone, Alex Hormozi. I've helped with infrastructure, systems and overall package. And you're gonna have a great time listening because I'm gonna give it. I'm gonna give you guys so much actual tangible, step by step details that you can implement your company that will take it to the next level within the next 60 to 90 days.

[B]

This is absolutely an episode you're gonna wanna share, have your team listen to and you can also watch and listen to all of our podcasts. We'll see you on the inside. All right, I'm excited for this one. We've got an in person podcast interview happening in Austin, Texas. I'm here with Ahmad Jumara who is the COO for L2, Infinite Insurance and the past COO for Wojo Media. Is that right?

[A]

Yes, it is.

[B]

I think it was. Wojo. Ahmad and I just met last week and I was really impressed with him and his skill sets. We had dinner together with a group of coos here in Austin. So I thought we'd be able to do an in person podcast before I jet off again. So, Ahmad, welcome to the second fan podcast.

[A]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here and just excited to see what's next.

[B]

Yeah, looking forward to this. So why don't you start off by talking a little bit about Wojo. What was Wojo Media? What was the growth curve like as your coo? And then we'll get into some of the details there.

[A]

So one of the big things for Vojo Media that I was brought in for was actually initially client retention. The company was incredible at making money, but not the best at keeping the clients. So they basically brought me, I think at time when I came in, the client retention was about 20%. So the churn was like insane. I came in and within like the first six months, we took it from 20% to 80%, which then tripled their revenue basically kind of like overnight, but not really. And one of the big things that I saw in the company was there's a lack of structure. And what's crazy is you would think a lot of companies are doing millions of dollars would have structure. They'd be like absolutely crushing it and organized. Never, never the case. And you're just blown away. You're like, I like, how is this even possible? So going in there, kind of seeing everything for what it was and then kind of like organize. It's kind of like when you're a CEO, it's like a puzzle. You know, you see one piece, you see another piece, you just put them all together. Then finally once you put all the pieces together, you start seeing the engine work the way it's supposed to work. And I think that was kind of like the pivotal role for me to like really kind of go in there and shift everything.

[B]

What were some of the early pieces then? So you saw some pieces that weren't working. I think there's also that the return on time and return on effort. Right. As you said, there's all these different pieces you could be working on. How did you decide which were the critical few pieces to focus on versus the important many?

[A]

So the first thing I did was when I first came in, it was the founder, which is Bojo, and then there was a CEO, there was a client success director, and then everybody. It didn't work out because now when problems were happening, nobody would communicate, especially based on different departments. So if you're running a marketing agency, it's broken down to different components. You have ads, you have graphics, you have copywriting, you have all these different parts of this company and it's like there's a problem copywriting. How would the COO or the director know? Because it was just. They were all just part of one single pod. And you basically hope that the person that's running that pod is going to take all that information and give it to the client success director. So the first thing we did when I first came in, I took the different positions, the different departments, the copyright department, the graphics department, the media buying department. And we found the individuals that had the most talent, but also the ones that were kind of being a leader without the title. We made the managers, we bought them all and made them all different managers. And then we had one 50 minute call every single day. We needed it because we needed to kind of catch problems as soon as they happened. That one 15 minute huddle basically got everybody in sync. Everybody had two minutes to talk about what's good, what's not good, what needs to be fixed for the week. And based on that, just collaboration, everything kind of came more structured and more organized. So we started rebuilding that culture. After we started doing that, I went and also then fired like the major weeds in the game. And what I also don't think is people don't realize how one bad egg can ruin the whole entire company. We had four. Everybody that just complained. Every time you told them to do something, they would always just give you some sort of rebuttal. But, but, but. And I'm like, please, for the love of God. I'm just, I'm. I'm being nice. I'm helping you. Just help me help you. But it's like, you get that enough and you're like, all right, I'm done with this. I'm like, we're not going to move anywhere. And then these people would then influence other people to follow in their footsteps. I just didn't want to deal with it.

[B]

Yeah. I want to ask you about getting rid of some of those bottom performers. I also want to ask you first, though, about the Daily Huddles that you did. That was just the managers that were doing the Daily Huddle. Correct. What time of day did you hold the Daily Huddle? What was the actual agenda or format for the Daily Huddle? And were there ever periods where you kind of thought about canceling it, but kept pushing and kept doing it?

[A]

Yeah. So the first two months we had to do it every single day. And the reason for that is because there were so many problems that were Happening that we had to basically fix everything that was already, like, in shambles. Basically, the agenda for it was we would get in and every single person have two minutes, and the biggest thing they would focus on are, what are the problems that we're facing today? What happened yesterday? That was a major issue. What can we do today to make it better? And then what was the goal for the week? I like focusing on week goals because everybody looks at the big picture goals. We can have them. But those were more for quarterly meetings. We're doing quarterly meetings. Then we'll focus on the bigger picture. But for now, let's focus on the present. And all right, there's problems that are going to come up in the. In the future. Let's wait, let's breathe, let's focus on the problems we have right now. Let's deal with them. And I look at it as, like, let's. Brick by brick. Yeah, so.

[B]

So it sounds like communication between departments was a big thing that you worked on, and then you elevated some people into these manager roles. I've always believed that a leader's core job is to grow people. What were you having to work with some of those managers on in terms of growing their skill sets or growing their confidence outside of communication between departments, what else did you work with, growing them on?

[A]

Well, communication was big, but SOP creation was also big. Um, one thing I also realized a lot of these specific employees were irreplaceable. I don't like that. I learned that the hard way, because the. The first company that really helped me build my skill sets, when I left the company, there was a half a million dollars in refund requests. Well, and it hit. It really hit. Because I'm like, all right, I never want to be me in another company. So whenever I see employees that are exceeding expectation, I love that. I want to support them, but I also want to learn what they're doing, and I want to replicate that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The first thing was we took every single one of the managers and we got them to create their own SOPs for their basically daily task, their monthly task, everything they were looking for, the whole entire process. We got that set up. And then I told them to build out processes for their whole entire system. And I had a bunch of templates that I'm like, hey, just take this, edit it. Put whatever you need to do in it to simplify the process. Just because I believe in making it easier for everybody else. I'm not going to have you create something that you don't know how to Create. So I've already have everything set up so I can just delegate it to you. They came, they basically put the roles of the people that were working for them. They the description, the daily tasks, the key KPIs, and if they didn't have decent KPIs, we had them rebuilt the KPIs. And the biggest thing was really focusing on getting them to have their confidence. A lot of people don't have their confidence. And everybody thinks being a leader is easy. Everybody looks sexy from the the ground up. Oh my God, I can't wait to go and manage people. But there's a difference between being a manager and being a leader. A manager tells people what to do. A leader creates individuals that can think for themselves and they can actually move the company forward without them. So that was kind of my intention. I'm like, how can I make you guys think differently? So whenever they come to me with a problem, if they didn't give me a solution, I just like the message.

[B]

I like it.

[A]

And then they were just like, why aren't you responding? I'd like that message too. I'm like, you already know, I already told you, I'm not going to repeat myself. Yeah, you give me a problem, you give me three solutions, and then you tell me which pro, which solution you like the most, and then you implement.

[B]

It and then we'll see you where.

[A]

We go from there.

[B]

Good for you. Okay, so you're starting to elevate them as leaders. You're making them do their own thinking A little bit. I love the whole elegant kind of creating the SOPs for each of the roles and each of the roles below them. When you're creating the SOPs, was there a system that you were using? Was it just Google Docs and Google Sheets? Were you pushing stuff into things like, you know, trainual, process, street? What were you doing for creating the SOPs? And then how did you make sure people use the SOPs when they were created? Or was it just there in case you had to actually replace them later?

[A]

Well, the SOPs basically gave people like the, the framework. So the reality is if they were handing KPIs, they're not following the SOPs. And that's kind of how I took it. I'm like, whenever they would have a problem, I'd be like, well, the problem is already in the sop. You're basically telling me that you're not looking at the sop, because that question is literally on page three. And that was kind of how it called people kind of out in a very loving way. But also it was like redefining the values and being like, what are the values we stand for? So if we say we're going to do something, we're actually going to do it. And I would focus really on seeing how these leaders were going to show up for themselves. And if they weren't going to go through the documents, I'd be like, all right, cool. If this is not the standard that you're now setting for everybody under you, do you really belong in leadership? It's kind of like, hey, I'm not going to reprimand you. But also, you are expected to show up like this. And I'm worried that now.

[B]

How many employees were at Wojo?

[A]

60.

[B]

Okay, so you had about 60 employees, but you said you identified four that were kind of those cultural cancers, the bad egg that you had to remove. How did you go about removing them? And then I've often wondered and believe that almost 90% of the time, when you remove those people, you don't even need to add a new person to replace them. They're not doing much anyway, other than causing problems. They're not getting a lot of productivity. Often the team can just pick up. What was your experience there?

[A]

This was a very big learning lesson. I think when I first stepped into these kind of roles, even before the company. Before that, the hardest part was transitioning into the company and getting the respect. It was like, it's always, you're either too aggressive or you're too kind. And I learned my lesson with this one. I came in and I was kind of tired of the shit, and I was aggressive and it bit me in the ass. Because the culture then shifted. Great. Because now we were defined as standard. But it kind of took a little bit longer for me to build everybody up. Because you go in there and people are listening and they're just constantly. It's like a laissez faire attitude. And I don't like them companies. I'm like, you guys, I want Papa G. I want a players. If you guys are BRC players, I don't want you. So then everybody got nervous, like, oh, we went from being lazy and not doing anything to now actually having to work, which is all, what a shocker.

[B]

You're at the job.

[A]

You shouldn't be working. So when I went in there, I kind of called everybody out and I, like, just fired them. But what happened is not everybody was afraid because they felt expendable.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which kind of goes back to what we were talking about. At dinner, where it's just like the one thing I learned the hard way in being a COO is the most important currency in a company is safety and security. If your employees feel safe and secure.

[B]

They will give you the roles, those hierarchy of needs, safety and security at the bottom layer. Right or right after, I guess the basic needs being met. Safety, security, or second.

[A]

So that was really big for them. And I realize now every decision I make is based on how are these people going to feel safe in this moment and in doing. Feeling. Feeling safe. They're going to make me feel safe.

[B]

So you came into the company. How many employees were there when you came in?

[A]

16. We got rid of like, more than four. Actually like about like four to eight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And just fired all of them the first three weeks.

[B]

But you feel you did it too soon, then. Scared people.

[A]

It's the way I came in. Yeah, I came in aggressive. I was. They didn't see my heart.

[B]

How old were you at the time?

[A]

30.

[B]

30. Yeah. There's some. I think what you've got now is some wisdom that is matching your leadership skills. Right. And the confidence that you had. Now you have some wisdom there that you need time to actually build that wisdom.

[A]

Muscle 100.

[B]

I think you've now seen that. So if you were going into a new company, you just joined L2, you're coming in there as the COO and a smaller company now, kind of a different industry or same industry, but coming in a different way. What's your approach been now, going in there as the coo, and what advice would you give leaders going into a new company as a CEO for the first time?

[A]

Well, starting, I think, frame is the most important thing. People don't need to really like you. They need to respect you. And I think after they respect you, then you can really start developing that, hey, listen, I'm here for you and I'm here to support you. But at the end of the day, there's this. The bigger picture is, what's the mission? What's the vision? How are we going to get there together? How can it be symbiotic where it's like, you value, I value you, you value me. We give each other value in the moment. And also the biggest thing is really focusing on the systems and structures. There was one piece of advice that I got that I'll never forget, and it shifted my whole perspective on just business and delegation. I was working with closers, which is where Ms. And I remember at the time I skyrocketed in the ranks Became coach to a point where then I was building out their back end for their B2C. We took it from like 0 to 1.4 million in like three months. I remember I was feeling like I was me. Yeah, look at me. Look how big my. You know what I mean? Like, look, I'm great. And I went to one of my mentors at the time in the company and I asked her. I was like, hey, tell me I'm great. I just did something that you guys didn't think was possible. And I was still my arrogant. Like, I wanted to prove myself. And she was like, all right, so hypothetically speaking, you get hit by a bus tomorrow, what happens to the department? Yeah, well, it blows up and goes downhill. And she's like. And you're proud of that? Like, excuse me. She was like, you just built a liability and you're bragging about building liability. Wow. Like, if they're stabbing. I felt that in the heart.

[B]

I was that leadership or gaslighting, I.

[A]

Don'T know what it was, but it was. There was a lot of.

[B]

But it work. It.

[A]

It did because it showed me something where I was still the bottleneck. I was the one that did all the stuff. And it was all around me because of my own ego. I wanted people to look at me like, I'm doing all this, but the reality is it wasn't me. And then I hated her for a couple of months. And then it came back and was, no, she was right.

[B]

So if you were leaving someone today that came in with that kind of bravado and wanted all that praise and you wanted them to make sure that they put systems in place to cover themselves, how would you give that feedback or that advice or that direction without necessarily potentially hurting the confidence, you know, could. Do you think you do both now?

[A]

Yes. Before, No. I think before I would have reacted the same.

[B]

Exact same way.

[A]

Yeah. But I think now it comes down to. I always try to find there's always three types of truth. You've got spoken truth, the unspoken truth, and the unknown truth. And it's like a lot of managers will focus on the spoken and unspoken. The real value comes from the unknown, which is you want to make a lot of money, you want to make a lot of shift. Why? Well, I want to buy all the nice fancy cars. Cool. But what are you trying to impress? I'm trying to impress people because I didn't get love when I was in high school. Oh. Deep rooted. Cause pain right there and then. For me, it's like, I understand the true buying motivators. And I think through that, then I associate it with the values and it comes back to the mission. So say then when I talk to you, I don't talk to you as the employee that's trying to make more money. I'm trying to talk to you as the employee that wants to retire their family. So the way you're acting right now is never going to retire your family.

[B]

I think in an approach too of just saying to the person, or if I just said to you, ahmad, that's amazing, like, you've totally crushed it. We are ridiculously proud of you. Like, this is stuff to celebrate in the company. Let's actually look at this from a different growth perspective as well. So what else do you think we could do now to make sure that if you got hit by a truck tomorrow that you haven't just left them with the liability? Right. So it's kind of like praise and versus just cut you out from the legs and expect you to rebuild. Do you think that would have worked?

[A]

That's a really good frame. I would love to kind of hear your perspective on this. I think I always get kind of mixed feedback sometimes about that. And from your experience, when you build amazing companies, does the positive like, you know, the positive sandwich, does that always work or is there like a, like a what do you.

[B]

Yeah. So the idea around the shits, the sandwich, the positive sandwich that it comes out in the book, the one minute manager, huge core around the grounding around situational leadership, which is one of the modules in the investment you leaders training. Yes, it absolutely works. You have to praise people twice as often as you actually give them criticism. It doesn't have to happen in the same sentence, it doesn't have to happen in the same day. But our role as a leader is to grow people's skills and confidence. Almost like they're walking up two ladders with their left hand and left foot climbing up the skills ladder and then right behind it, their right hand and right foot are climbing up the confidence ladder. If at any point we knock down their confidence, it's hard for them to get their skills. Our job is to grow their confidence, their skills, their confidence, their skills. So I think your leader, she had an opportunity to go, that's amazing. Well done. A bubba loo. This is fantastic. Keep your confidence high and let's actually feed off of that and see if we can work on the skills of not leaving a liability or a detriment there. What she did was knocked you down a couple of rungs and expected you to somehow climb back up to where she was right at wanting to give you more skills. But I don't think she needed to destroy your confidence to get you there.

[A]

You know, someone. I have never looked at it from that perspective. I just looked at it as like, who said needed now? How do I delegate myself out of role? That's my. That was.

[B]

Well, it's kind of like, you know, I got spanked back in the 1970s but. But my dad could have probably raised us in a different way. I mean it worked and, and I grew. But we don't do it that way today. Right. And I think it's the same way with the leader. She pro have it modeled to her before, but I think that's something that, you know, everyone who's managing people. I'd love to know what your thoughts are in the comments, but I think that's just a better way to do it is a great job and versus a you you still have better to do. Right? So your approach as a leader now in leading and growing people, how do you show up every day with them? What do you focus with them on? Hey, it's Cameron. I hope you're loving today's episode. Quick question for you. Does your company have a strong leadership training program in place to grow the skills of everyone who manages people? If you want to help yourself and your company grow, get everyone who manages people learning from my invest in your leaders online training program. There are 12 core leadership skills that I cover online and they're all going to really grow. CEOs pay me $78,000 a year to coach them one on one and now you can all benefit for 1% of what they pay me. These are the same leadership skills that I created and Certified. Everyone in at 1-800-got junk when I was there as COO. Go to investinyourleaders.com today and use promo code PODCAST10 before the end of the month to get 10% off each manager you sign up. Now back to the show.

[A]

For me.

[B]

Is it still things like SOPs and.

[A]

And SOPs in the beginning, but usually I've realized that I usually delegate that very, very quickly. I really focus on integrity with them and I always say the intention is all in all right, I want you to make your own mistakes. I look at it as like if you're making new mistakes every day, I'm happy you're making the same mistakes every day. You're not growing. And that's kind of the main focus where I'm just watching on how they interact with their team. I'm watching how they show up for themselves and I'm watching exactly. The skills are developing day by day. It becomes more of like, kind of like management of expectations. And that's kind of been my main role, especially right now with the new company. The first three months, it's all micromanaging. You're going to have to micromanage first 90 days, just until you can build the trust. Because I don't. I see a lot of CEOs and just people in general just come in and they give. Like, they don't train their COOs, they don't train their team, they just be like, oh, hey, do this.

[B]

Here's more. Yep.

[A]

And you're just sitting here, I'm like, well, you didn't teach me. So it's like, if you didn't teach me, how can I grow? I see some sales managers all the time where a COO will come in, they're afraid of sales, so they'll bring a sales guy, they'll have them do all the sales. They don't know anything about the process. God forbid that person leaves, then they're stuck back at square one. So I'm like, you do it first for three months. You get the recordings, you get the breakdown systems, you do everything and then you bring somebody else and you have them copy what you're doing. Now if God forbid, they leave, you still have something that you can present to the team. And you're also not screwed because you also understand. So you can train them. If they're the one training themselves, building everything themselves, and they don't know what it is, you can't get mad at them. Right. For not having success that you haven't clearly defined as a leader. But again, all this stuff sounds sexy, but you have to experience it all these are problems.

[B]

Let's talk, I want to talk about that onboarding. So I've always believed that companies, if you take two months to recruit and hire somebody, you should take two months to onboard them as well.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Two months to integrate them into your company, your core values. If you're bringing a new manager into the company and they're coming in for, you know, they're going to be leading people coming in at like a mid to a senior level role. What's the onboarding process?

[A]

You would typically put people through nine days. I usually have a SOP week one and I have a checklist every day, day one. So Monday would be like, get on this meeting, get this done, go through this video Go through this document Shadow day two. Shadow this person. Do this, this. Meet with every single person that you need within the company just to kind of get to know each other, to build that kind of integrity within the company and just step by step. For the first three months, I'm very micromanaging. And I tell them later, I'm like, I'm going to micromanage you. I'm going to be on your ass. And it's not because I don't trust you. I am doing this so I can build the trust to help you be by yourself so I don't have to touch you later on. They're usually very receptive as long as you're very open with it. And I'm like, I don't want you to be frustrated. I just want to be open about this communication. And usually, like I said, the first month is just getting integrated in the company. Second month is really kind of focusing on systems, and then third month is really about maintaining the skill and seeing, can you do it without me?

[B]

All right, so go ahead. So. So you're growing people, you're integrating people, you're bringing them into the organization, and then you yourself as the leader every day, it's kind of the biggest thing you've ever grown, right? The company keeps getting bigger. It's like pushing a snowball up a mountain. It keeps getting bigger, and you're kind of clawing your way up with one hand and pushing the snowball up with the other. What skills do you work on as a leader? What skills are you trying to get better at yourself?

[A]

Well, for me, I'm always. I've realized one of the big things, like, especially at this level, delegation is so, so powerful. But also training people has been the most valuable skill I've had to learn. So constantly thinking about leadership books, constantly learning about communication books, also constantly learning about what's. What's the new things that are developing, like AI. How can I integrate into AI? How can I one make my life easier, but then everybody else's life easier, I think. And you understand this more than anybody when you're at that position, a lot of decisions you have, you make can destroy a company. And it's kind of terrifying. You know, it's like there's a lot of pressure a lot of people don't see. And it's like, you have to sit there and be confident, yeah, this is gonna work. And you're like, for three weeks, you can't sleep, you're bricks. You're like, I really hope it works. I really hope it works, but it's like. But it's kind of one of those things where if you're a commander in war, you can't be the. Your legs can't be shaken.

[B]

They are.

[A]

Everybody else behind you, they can see right there with you. Yeah.

[B]

So I've noticed this as well. Two things. One is when leaders point their finger at somebody and blame somebody else, there's three fingers pointing back at you. But the second part that you just illustrated is leaders have to sometimes fake the confidence 100%. But we need to have some kind of a group where we can actually say we don't know what the fuck we're doing. So one of the reasons we started the COO alliance was to give all these COOs a place to come in and meet behind the scenes to go. I'm scared. I don't know if what, what I'm planning is working. I've just recruited somebody. I'm not even sure how we're going to pay them yet. Where do you go right now? How do you kind of work through some of those worries so that your team doesn't see your leg shaking?

[A]

I have a lot of mentors, very, very successful mentors. I think in the years I've gone to. I think one thing I really appreciate about you as well is like you're very heart centered. I started finding, it was very difficult to find heart centric people that are making a lot of money, you know, and initially I had a lot of individuals that I would go to that were just money driven, very good at what they do, but they didn't really.

[B]

Care about the people.

[A]

They cared more about the profit, they cared more about the product.

[B]

They cared more about.

[A]

Thank you. But even the customers. And it wasn't until I really kind of found those kind of mentors that were like, that were successful, that had the same values, we could communicate and I can feel their authenticity. That really kind of things started shifting for me. So I usually go to them, have like three really big mentors that have sold and exited like massive, worth hundreds of millions of dollars. And they're the people that I really kind of go to for support in that way. And obviously some masterminds. But sometimes I feel like the mentors that are hundreds of millions have been more, you know, but it also depends. I've also never been in a complete coo, so that's also another different.

[B]

Not yet.

[A]

There it is. There it is.

[B]

When you're working with a mentor and you're thinking of reaching out to A mentor, how do you approach that? Is it a one off call? Is it a regular call? Do you meet with them in person?

[A]

You should take them out to dinner. Nice dinner. You know what I mean? I'm like, hey, you missed. Are you craving steak today? Let's go. You know, I mean, I'll take him out to dinner also. Just call, you know, I mean, I, I also provided much value because a lot of these mentors as well, I, I have skills sometimes that they also need. So I'll just constantly even point to them, like maybe their sales process, something that they'll come to me. So we've built this kind of mutually beneficial relationship. Where are they? Leagues ahead. Yes. But there's also a lot of things that I can provide for them that they don't have and that they can come to me instead of.

[B]

You know, you've spoken a lot about sales, and I've always believed that one of the core skills of any good leader is to be good at selling. Right? Not just selling to land clients, but selling your team to deliver more, selling your team to take on better challenges, selling partners to work with you. Do you agree and do you think anybody could be a second in command without being good at selling?

[A]

No shot. I don't believe that at all. Because you're literally selling ideas every single day. You're selling it to the CEO, you're selling it to the managers, you're selling it to the employees, you're selling it to the company, selling to the shareholders, the customers. You're constantly selling. So if people come in there and they're afraid to sell, this is not the position for you. You can't be a leader. Yeah, like you literally can't be a leader. And you can try and you will lose most of the time.

[B]

I've said that to my two boys who are 22 and 24, that the only time that no means no is in the bedroom. And if you're not in the bedroom, no just means you haven't explained yourself. No means that you haven't, you know, shown them different options. You didn't hear their objections. But in the bedroom, no means no. But in the rest of the sales world, no doesn't mean no until they say F off. Get out of here. Get out of my office. So we're really starting to grow companies right now in pretty rapid change. If the rate of change outside your business is greater than the rate of change inside your business, you're out of business. AI is coming in pretty fast and furious right now. How Are you, as a leader, starting to think about and leveraging AI and how are you working with people inside of your company on leveraging AI?

[A]

So that was one of the big fears where a lot of the employees were coming to us and they were worried that AI was going to take their position. One of the big things I told them was, if you want to have job security, learn how to integrate AI and then make your. And learn how to integrate AI, but also to triple the amount of workload you were doing. If you develop that skill, then we won't need to hire outside sources to do that. So in other words, I told them, I was like, I'm not going to sit here and tell you you're safe, because I don't know and I don't know how the company is going to move. But what I can tell you is if you want to be very safe, this is what you should do. Yeah, And I'm all about kind of giving my team a heads up and being like, this is kind of what's going on in the company, just to be transparent. And I'm not trying to create fear, but also, I don't want to. I don't like the whole, like, yeah, one day you go to work and you're okay, by the way, let's have a talk. We got to let you go. And again, this kind of goes back to what you're saying before, where it's just like, I always try to give people as much notice as possible. If I know they're going to get rid of them or something is coming up, I'll give them warnings, sure, but they have to be on paper for I fire them.

[B]

It is the classic outage, though, of like, you're not going to get replaced by AI. You'll get replaced by an employee who's using AI. So, yeah, you have to be able to. It's kind of like you couldn't come into a company today and say, well, I'm not going to use a laptop, I'm not going to use wi fi, I'm not going to use the Internet. You're not going to work here either. Right. So AI is just a tool that's on our disposal. If you were to go back and give yourself, you know, the younger you some advice, what advice would you give the younger you that you know to be true today?

[A]

Be patient. Be patient. You don't, you don't know it all. Like, it's just, again, so much ego. Even though I still feel like I have somewhat of you, but I Think it's more like heart, a little more heart centered. But there was just so much where I just wanted to do it all so fast. And I was trying to avoid the suffering. I was trying to avoid the. I wanted my team to love me before having them hate me. In the beginning, I want to do all these different things. And what's crazy is I had to. I only learned those skills that I wanted only through pain, only through failure, only through losing the opportunities that I thought were going to change my life. So if I go back and just be like, just be patient, it's all going to come. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep getting better. One step at a time every single day, and I promise you're going to be in the position that I'm in right now. But, you know, I learned the hard way, I shouldn't have to. But if you can, if you're listening right now, if someone gives you advice, just shut up and listen. Especially if there's somebody that you want to switch positions with, please, for the love of God, just shut up and listen. Just trust. Yeah.

[B]

Whether you follow it or not is one thing, but just listen to it. Don't debate them on it. For sure.

[A]

Take it.

[B]

All right, what's next for L2?

[A]

We just got our capital funding, so we are super excited. Yeah. That made the company's already valued at 18 million, so I'm pumped. It's a whole new world. It's like really first time playing with VC funding. So I'm nervous again. This is one of those moments where now I'm scared because, like, I heard all the horror stories trying to navigate, but I'm trying to listen. I'm trying to go to all my mentors. I'm like, all right, what is the best approach? How do we not get screwed? But I'm really excited because again, coming from a. Coming from a. From an industry where most of the things are bootstrapped, you take zero and you make millions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Compared to now, where I have all this money to play with and just build the company the way I want, it is a different mindset, is a whole shift. So I'm excited.

[B]

I love it. Ahmad, thanks for being on the Second Command podcast.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Appreciate it.

[A]

This is amazing. You've been listening to Second in Command, brought to you by COO alliance founder Cameron Herald. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to, like, share and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and our other podcast streaming platforms for more best practices from industry leading COOs, visit cooalliance. Com.