Ep. 539 - Taco Johns COO Jackie Secor - Why Emotional Strength Now Outperforms Expertise

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Second in Command with Cameron Herold

Episode 539: Taco John’s COO Jackie Secor – Why Emotional Strength Now Outperforms Expertise
Date: December 26, 2025
Guest: Jackie Secor, Chief Operating Officer, Taco John’s
Host: Cameron Herold

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Main Theme

This episode explores the evolving nature of operational leadership with Jackie Secor, COO of Taco John’s. The focus is on how emotional intelligence, adaptability, and human connection now outperform pure technical expertise in executive roles—especially in today’s rapidly changing business environment. Jackie shares her unique experience transitioning into Taco John’s after 25 successful years at Auntie Anne’s, discusses her approach to building teams, promoting from within, managing a family-owned franchise business, and embracing technology while staying grounded in operational basics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Transitioning into a New COO Role

• Relationship-based Recruitment: Jackie was recruited by CEO Heather Neary, who she previously worked with, highlighting the value of relationships and reputation over active job seeking.
  • “Great people are never looking for a job… Good people have to be poached, right?” – [10:42, Cameron]
• First 90 Days:
  • Focused on listening, learning history and culture, and asking questions at all levels—not just relying on hierarchical reporting.
  • Needed to address standardization issues due to varied operational practices across locations.
    • “We got away from operational standardization… We needed to make some changes pretty quickly to get that, you know, kind of claw back some of that standardization.” – [07:42, Jackie]
• Balancing Immediate Action with Deliberation:
  • Tackled urgent process needs quickly (like standardizing taco assembly), but delayed or tested changes when appropriate.

2. Identifying and Developing Leadership Talent

• Promoting from Within: Looks for potential leaders internally through stretch assignments and challenging employees to bring solutions, not just problems.
  • “You never walk into my office and drop a problem on my desk… You tell me what the problem is and then you have your list of solutions.” – [13:30, Jackie]
• Valuing Soft Skills and Emotional Intelligence:
  • Soft skills and the ability to handle ambiguity and stress in operations are prioritized over technical expertise alone.
  • “It’s more of the soft skills and the emotional intelligence… The skills I can teach you, but you have to have the ability…” – [13:30, Jackie]
• Managing Generational Differences:
  • Recognizes younger generations have different expectations—often seeking rapid advancement and not planning for long tenures.
  • Advocates for transparency about career paths, even if it means supporting employees moving elsewhere.
    • “It's being totally transparent... I'm not afraid to have conversations with the people who work for me to say what's next? And it might not be [here]. And that's okay.” – [16:42, Jackie]

3. Learning from Both Franchisees and the Front Line

• Empathy from Franchisee Experience: Having spent years as a franchisee herself, Jackie brings empathy and a grounded perspective to franchisor decisions.
  • “Working for a franchisee for 10 years gave me the awareness and experience of what it’s like to live the life of a franchisee. And it’s hard!” – [20:03, Jackie]
• Brutal Transparency with Franchisees:
  • Deals with difficult decisions and necessary changes by being honest and clear, and seeks backup from the CEO when needed.
    • “It is just brutal transparency… if it’s a decision that we need to make and it’s good for the system as a whole, you state your point, state the reasons why…” – [23:43, Jackie]
• Trickle-Up Innovation:
  • Spends significant time visiting stores, both with franchisees and store-level staff, to observe real practices and glean new ideas.
  • “There is nothing that replaces sitting in a car with somebody traveling to their stores and learning their history… Investing in that upfront builds the foundation for when you have to have those hard conversations.” – [26:17, Jackie]
• Real-World Standardization Example:
  • Detailed the debate over whether taco meat should go on the bottom or the side—a practical example of operational consistency.
  • "We put it on the bottom… That is the official Taco John’s way moving forward under Jackie as COO.” – [29:28, Jackie]

4. Strengths of a Family-Owned Brand

• Multi-Generational Involvement:
  • Noted Taco John’s success with third-generation franchisees, achieved by fostering strong culture and brand loyalty.
  • Family ownership provides authentic passion and continuity, which can be a competitive advantage versus private equity-backed chains.
    • “There’s a long history and passion for this brand unlike anything that I’ve seen before.” – [30:20, Jackie]

5. Adopting Technology Sensibly (AI & Robotics)

• Careful AI & Robotics Adoption:
  • Watching robotics trends due to prohibitive costs; focused instead on practical uses of AI (e.g., AI-driven drive-thru orders, automating reports, ticketing).
  • Noted cultural resistance to AI in rural communities; emphasizing redeployment of labor rather than elimination.
    • “It’s been an interesting experience. In our more rural communities there is less acceptance of AI… It’s not about reducing labor, it’s about redeploying labor.” – [34:07, Jackie]
  • Agrees with Cameron that the ROI isn’t there for being first-mover on robotics; better to let prices fall and learning increase.

6. Back to Basics Philosophy

• Avoiding Over-Complication:
  • Stresses simplifying operations at the store level and not overburdening staff with conflicting directives.
  • “For God’s sake, let’s make a taco the same way, right?... We overload, especially at the drive-thru window, the person who is handing out food to our guests…” – [37:07 & 38:03, Jackie]
• Cutting Out the Noise:
  • Campbell and Jackie both shared anecdotes about scrapping overly complicated metrics and surveys to focus on what truly matters (e.g., net promoter score, intent to return).

7. Modernizing the Brand & Menu Evolution

• Pivot to Value Messaging:
  • With industry value wars on, Taco John’s is bridging toward quality by emphasizing value and fresh ingredients; positioning itself between fast-food giants and fast-casual competitors.
    • “Value wars are on… We’re really looking at, at least from a menu perspective, getting back to quality and being able to message quality.” – [43:13, Jackie]
• Retaining Corporate Locations:
  • Maintains some corporate stores for R&D and rapid prototyping but is not seeking aggressive expansion on that front.
    • “We are heavily leaning into especially our two locations in Minneapolis, because our culinary team is in Minneapolis… So we are just throwing stuff in there and saying, will this work?” – [45:59, Jackie]

8. Advice to Her Younger Self

• “Trust your gut, never leads you wrong.” – [47:02, Jackie]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Relationships and Recruitment:
  • “Great people are never looking for a job… Here’s a person who knew you, liked you, trusted you, saw your results and brought you with her a little bit later…” – Cameron [10:42]
• On Team Building:
  • “I’m a firm believer and give all the credit away, take all the responsibility, got your back. And when you build teams like that, you would walk through fire for each other.” – Jackie [11:30]
• On Standardization:
  • “We put [the meat] on the bottom. That is the official Taco John’s way moving forward under Jackie as COO.” – Jackie [29:28]
• On AI Adoption in Restaurants:
  • “It’s redeploying labor to areas where we can work on speed and accuracy. The things our consumer tells us is they want speed, but we also have a problem with accuracy and we need to make sure we’re still creating that human interaction at the window.” – Jackie [34:07]
• On the Value of Simplicity:
  • “Let it be genuine hospitality. There are, you know, a couple things that we can focus on but let’s calendarize it… Instead of everybody in the office going, my app is really important, my survey results are really important, we need to upsell…” – Jackie [38:03]
• On Employee Happiness:
  • “My most important metric is the happiness of employees, first. The customer, second. Because if I have really really happy employees, they’re going to wow the customers…” – Cameron [41:03]
• Advice to Her Younger Self:
  • “Trust your gut, never leads you wrong.” – Jackie [47:02]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• First 90 Days as COO: Learning & Integration – [03:35–07:42]
• Standardization Crisis (Taco-Making Example) – [07:42–10:42]
• Team Building & Core Competencies – [11:30–13:30]
• Leadership Development/Soft Skills vs. Expertise – [13:30–16:42]
• Gen Z & Y Workforce Management – [16:42–18:23]
• Franchisee Empathy & Frontline Insights – [20:03–22:10]
• Brutal Transparency with Franchisees – [23:43–25:12]
• Field Visits and Operational Truths – [26:17–29:28]
• Strengths of Family-Owned Franchises – [30:20–31:52]
• On Technology and AI in Restaurants – [33:10–36:09]
• Back to Basics & Operational Simplicity – [37:07–41:24]
• Modernizing the Brand & Value Proposition – [43:13–44:58]
• Corporate Store Strategy for R&D – [45:05–45:59]
• Advice to Her Younger Self – [47:02]

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Final Takeaway

Jackie Secor’s journey highlights the vital role of emotional strength, adaptability, and clarity in modern operations leadership. Her approach blends authenticity, practical experience, and a focus on developing people—all while navigating technology’s possibilities and the enduring strengths of a family-owned brand.

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Transcript

[A]

I think it's really taking a step back. I think it's what I just talked about is that, you know, giving people stretch assignments, allowing them to make decisions. You know, anybody who has ever worked for me knows that you never walk into my office and drop a problem on my desk. You walk into my office, you tell me what the problem is and then you have your list of solutions and let's talk through it. So, you know, it's really evaluating the way that they approach an issue or a problem or an opportunity that they see that nobody else has seen. And, you know, fostering that environment to encourage that creative thinking or that out of the box thinking. But then it's also about, you know, how because to be an operator, to work in operations. Welcome to the Second in Command podcast produced by the COO alliance and brought to you by its founder, Cameron Herold. In the second in command podcast, we talk to top COOs who share the insights, strategies and tactics that made them the chief behind the chief. And now here's your co host, former COO of a multi eight figure remote company and alumni member of the COO Alliance, Savannah Brewer.

[B]

All right, I'm excited about this podcast, not just because I like tacos, but because Jackie Secor, who is the chief operating officer of Taco John's, is dropping some huge, huge bombs for us today. She's going to walk us through how an executive like her who had been with one company for 25 years in a number of different operational roles, leading seven different franchise organizations, how she transitioned into Taco John's as their chief operating officer, what her first 90 days was like, how she's constantly looking for people internally to promote them from within versus always bringing people in from the outside. She's going to talk about what she learns from the franchisee that she can bring into the franchisor side, which really translates into what we can learn from the frontline staff and bring that up into corporate. She's also worked on the franchisee and the franchisor side and she's going to talk about modernizing the brand, leaning into AI and what you have to do in this very competitive landscape when everything in the business world and certainly in the restaurant world is changing. You'll love this episode and as always, you can share the episodes, subscribe to the episodes, and all of our podcasts are on our YouTube channel as well as Spotify, Apple, anywhere you listen to podcasts. We'll see you on the inside. So, Jackie, welcome to the Second in Command podcast.

[A]

Thank you, Cameron. Happy to be here.

[B]

Yeah. I'm looking forward to this for a few reasons. One, I kind of grew up in the franchising world. My very first business, I was awarded a franchise when I was 20 years old of a company called College Pro Painters. And I've built three different franchise organizations. So I've always been very enamored with that whole face. Spent a lot of time in the ifa, which is the International Franchise association, which I'm sure you know of or a part of. But then I also wanted to talk a little. A little bit. I think where I want to start is the first 90 days of an executive. You've just come into Taco John's as their chief operating officer about four or five months ago. I really want to know because I've always talked more hypothetically, but it's from the rear view mirror lens. You know, the last time I entered a company was 25 years ago. What's it like coming into a company today as a senior officer when the existing team is already there? I'm sure some are excited to work with you and some are going, well, who's she and why didn't I get the job? And can you kind of speak to that for us to start us off?

[A]

Sure. Yeah. It is. It is an interesting transition, especially because coming from my previous role, I was with that company for almost 25 years in some form or fashion. Right. So I really had anticipated that I would finish my career out there and kind of ride off into the sunset. And the opportunity came around because Heather Neary, the current CEO of Taco John's, she and I worked together for a number of years at Auntie Anne's. So if, if anything, it's a testament to. Relationships matter, networking matters, people matter. Because honestly, coming into this, I didn't know much about Taco John's, but I did know that if Heather was involved in something, it was something I wanted to be involved in as well. But transitioning into the role certainly was a new experience for me since I had spent 25 years with, you know, antennae and go to foods. But I think it's really important when you come into a new role like this that you give yourself the time and the space to be able to learn. Because I don't come in thinking that I have all the answers. I mean, structurally and things happening within the organization. I certainly have experience with and. And have some ideas on how we can move it forward. But it's super important for the team around you to have the opportunity to share with you Kind of their history, what they're thinking, where they see pitfalls, because I still have some blinders on and not really being able to recognize some of the history and the culture and things that are happening within the organization. So just allowing yourself that time, but then also asking a ton of questions to everyone within the organization. Right. It's not the hierarchy where you can't kind of go down a couple levels and just say, hey, tell me. I heard about this. Tell me your perspective on it. And so I really have spent the past 90 days doing that, understanding, seeking to understand, Understanding people's roles and where they fit within the organization and figuring out if that makes sense for the future or if there are changes or things that you need to make along the way.

[B]

And was a CEO good with that as well? Did they understand the need for you to just get to understand the company and the people and the lay of the land and the culture, or did they have stuff that they wanted you to work on right away, like come in and let's, you know, hit the. Hit the ground running?

[A]

Yeah, probably a combination of both. You know, Heather had spent 18 months with the organization, so she was well aware of some of the challenges and gaps that we needed to build. So there's, you know, definitely a need to, like, go fast. We need to get some stuff in line. But also understanding that she didn't have all the answers right, as the. Because she's a new CEO in the. In the organization as well. So, you know, knowing that she didn't have all the answers and allowing me the time to kind of dig in and. And figure some stuff out, and, you know, honestly, within the first two to three weeks, you know, every time we turned the corner, I would say, Heather, hey, you didn't tell me that part. So, you know, it. She's. She's the balance of allowing me to do what I need to do to figure out what needs to be done. But also, I've known Heather for a long time, and she wants to go fast. If it's broken, she wants it fixed. So.

[B]

Well, I've often said that in the first 90 days. The first 30 tends to be just get an understanding of the history and the culture in the lay of the land. The second 30 is kind of test some of your hypotheses. You've probably come up with a bunch of things you want to fix or change, and it's testing that. And then month three is going for some easy wins. Did you try to delay some decisions a little bit as well in Your first kind of 30 days or did you, did you run with some, if you, if you saw them and how do you weigh which ones to run with and which ones to delay in that starting period?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So there were some decisions that, that I made very early on just based on some of the processes and programs that were in place that I felt were just lacking in clarity, needing, you know, updating. And so I needed to make some changes pretty quickly to one of the areas that I was responsible for and just streamline how we were getting things done. And that because of that, because of the processes that were in place. As a 50 year old brand that's, that's owned by a family and really kind of came up through the ranks of relationships and allowing people to kind of run their businesses the way that they wanted to. You know, what had happened over the years was we got away from operational standardization. And so the way a taco was made in, you know, Sheridan, Wyoming was different than the way that it was made in, you know, Iowa. And, and, and a lot of passion around it. So from the franchisees and, and that wasn't anybody's fault. It was just what had happened over a number of years. So as a, you know, as a brand, we need standardization. There's no way that I can support 17 Ways to Make a taco, nor my team. So we needed to make some changes pretty quickly to get that, you know, kind of claw back some of that standardization. And so that's a project that we started within the first 30 days. Other things that I have waited on longer and tested out hypotheses is the decision was made a number of years ago to outsource the auditing of brand standards to a third party vendor. And there's pros and cons to that, right? I've seen that through the years with a number of brands. And that also contributed to kind of the degradation of standardization around operations. And so I believed that we needed to kind of weighing back in the responsibility for OPS standards internally with our team, right? They made the decision of, hey, we've got this FBC team. And the buzzword in the industry was being more of a consultant and a partner with a franchisee rather than focused on operations. And so previous leadership said that's the direction that we want to move. And FBCs, you're now consultants. We waved our magic wand and said, go forth and prosper. And so that people kind of brought their own lens to what that meant. So even bringing back in the way that we support and work with our franchisees at the store level, we've just got to get back to basics and fix all that stuff before we can talk be talking about the higher level business stuff.

[B]

So I want to go back to something you mentioned just around how you were found and brought into Taco John's is because you worked with the CEO before. And I think it speaks to two things. One is that great people are never looking for a job. Right. Great people like you don't even have a resume. You already had a job. Right. You don't like last time you probably had a resume was 25 years ago because you've never needed one. Because here's a person who knew you, liked you, trusted you, saw your results and brought you with her a little bit later over to the next organization. Good people have to be poached, right? Good people are not on industry job boards and looking. And so I would guess that you've got your eyes on some people that you're going to be able to bring with you. How does that work? That you kind of know who to bring with you and who not to?

[A]

Sure. So I think one of my strengths throughout the years and I've been doing this a long time, I turned 60 this year. So I'm reflective on what I want to leave behind and my legacy. And I think one of the things that I have been known for over the years is really building strong, well, high performing team and that really comes with giving people the space to be able to make decisions on their own. But having their back and talking them through it all the way. I'm a firm believer and give all the credit away, take all the responsibility, got your back. And when you build teams like that, you know, you would walk through fire for each other. So there are definitely people that I have worked with over the years that I would love to bring along on the team. But I also think that it's important that from a cultural standpoint that the people that are working for us now are in that consideration set as well. Right. It's really matching the what do we need to do to move this business forward with the people that you've surrounded yourself with over the years and matching that skill set and those core competencies. So you know, I've got, you know, a laundry list of people that I've worked with over the year that I'm just like, wow, they are just fantastic people, but might not be a fit for what we're trying to accomplish now. So it's really matching the skillset with what needs to be done.

[B]

What are you looking at internally to identify the next wave of leaders? What are you looking at to find the right people to kind of to bet on. And I think sadly too often leaders spend all their time with the bottom performers, trying to grow them and make them better. Instead of identifying the emerging leaders and spending our time with them, what do you look for to find them?

[A]

Yeah, I mean it's so, so important to have a bench strength, right. So that I say it all the time. If I get hit by a bus tomorrow or win the lottery, I'll take the lottery, you know, who, who would step into my shoes? And so I think it's really taking a step back. I think it's what I just talked about is that, you know, giving people stretch assignments, allowing them to make decisions. You know, anybody who has ever worked for me knows that you never walk into my office and drop a problem on my desk. You walk into my office, you tell me what the problem is and then you have your list of solutions and let's talk through it. So it's really evaluating the way that they approach an issue or a problem or an opportunity that they see that nobody else has seen and fostering that environment to encourage that creative thinking or that out of the box thinking. But then it's also about how, because to be an operator, to work in operations, it is just a unique breed of people at work in operations. Right. We are quick on our feet. We figure stuff out really fast. We've got a, you know, I, I laugh all the time and I say, you know, our marketing folks who I adore and, and that is such an important relationship to have in operations. But they make these pretty plans and then they just follow the plan, right? In operations, it's, you make a plan and then somebody laughs and says, yeah, let me, you know, drop this bomb in your lap today. So it's, it's how they handle those high stress and high pressure situations. Because not only are the teams internally looking to your leadership and your guidance and how you react to situations, it's also the franchise community and you know, franchisees and managers, they need to know that they've got an unwavering, level headed partner in making decisions and, and you know, kind of leading that team. So it's evaluate, it's more of the soft skills and the emotional intelligence that is that like, that's almost more important than anything else. The skills I can teach you, but you have to have the ability to be able to look at it, you know, any situation at a third, from a 30,000 foot lens and evaluate the impact of a decision on every single person within the organization.

[B]

Yeah, tough to do too. And some of that comes with the wisdom of time. You, you said something a little bit ago that I want to ask about and it's that, you know, you expected that your career was going to kind of maybe continue on at Andie Anne's and you're going to be there till the, till the end. That's not normal today, Jen. You know, you're kind of the first year of Gen X or the last year of baby boom. Baby boomers were kind of 15 to 25 years in a company. Gen X was maybe 5 to 15 years in a company. Gen Y is maybe 2 years to 5. Gen Z is like 6 months to a year and then they're flipping to the next thing. How do you, how do you wrap your mind around working with the Gen Z and Gen Y cohorts that aren't here for 20 years? They're certainly not even here for 10 years.

[A]

Yeah. I think the other challenge is also they think they should be president tomorrow. So you know, it's really level setting expectations and you know, and some people get it and some people don't. Right. That, you know, you've got to work through that to say, look, what is the next step for you? What is the next thing that you want to do? And help them identify how that can happen. Right. Whether it's within your organization or outside the organization. But to your point, it's usually outside the organization because not only is that happening, but I also find within organizations, you know, and Auntie Anne's was owned by Go To Food. So we had seven brands. And the role that I was in there that I eventually moved into, I worked with all seven brands as much as, and with Taco John's as well, as much as we want to look internally for promotions, it is more often than not that people move on to another organization for the next level. So I think it's really important that companies recognize that too. And what is the career path and really working for somebody so that they are working with somebody so that they can see the vision of how their career could progress with the current company. And if it can't, then helping them to identify what would be the next step with you, for you with, with another company. And it's, it's being totally transparent about it. I'm not afraid to have conversations with the people that work for me to say what's next? And it might not be. And that's okay, but let's talk through it.

[B]

Well, I've spoken about that for years, that, you know, our job as parents is to grow our children so they become these happy, healthy, independent adults so they can move out and become their own. Like, it's not to keep them in our house forever. And some sometimes with our employees are. The best path for our employees is to go somewhere else. Maybe it'll come back to us, maybe it won't. But our job is not to keep people internally. So do you think that is a different mindset than it was maybe back in the 80s and 90s where companies thought it was like, how do we hire people and keep them? I guess that's culturally part and parcel of the same thing then?

[A]

Yeah, I think so. It's just a different culture. But I also think that when I started with Auntie Anne's and I began my career on the franchise side, so I worked for a franchisee for a number of years before I moved over corporately. But I also think it was unique to Auntie Anne's. So when, if you look back at Auntie Anne's 10 or 15 years ago, it was not uncommon that there were people within that organization that had been there for 15 or 20 years or even 10 years. And it was a uniqueness for that organization unlike anything that I've ever seen with other brands similar to it.

[B]

So you've worked on the franchisee side and the franchisor side, which is pretty rare. And I did as well. I was a franchisee for three years and then I was on the franchisor side of the same brand and then two other brands on the franchisor side. What were the big lessons that you saw from the franchisee side? And I'm not even going to lead you. I was going to. I almost continued, but I think that would have been a leading question. So what did you learn from working on the franchisee side that helps you be better at the franchisor?

[A]

I think it is probably in the top five list of the reasons that I have had a successful career. Working for a franchisee for 10 years gave me the awareness and the experience of what it's like to live the life of a franchisee. And it's hard. It is hard. And not only is it hard, but the business is your child. So there's an emotional attachment to it as well. And that ability to be able to filtered decisions and my leadership style through the lens of being a franchisee is probably a competitive advantage that I had over a Lot of people in the industry.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's the empathy. And I was exactly the same. I mean having been a franchisee for three years, when I was on the franchisor side, I was like, no, it's not good for the franchisee. We have to obsess about our franchisees profitability. They're out there killing themselves and driving hard and like we have to try to, it has to be about them. If they're really successful, they validate well, they refer more, they're more profitable, they're less of a pain in the ass, they'll buy more locations and we'll, we'll do better, we'll make, we'll make more. But so and so many people miss that. Why do they miss that?

[A]

What's the, you know, I would say there's a whole number of reasons. Right. It's ego. People think they know it. And, and if you don't have the experience, you just don't know. You just been there, you just haven't been there, you haven't lived it. And I say it all my, all the time to my team. I'm like, if we implement something that makes the, the frontline employees life harder, it will never be successful. So you have like and, and that experience goes right across the counter to our, to our guest.

[B]

Hey, it's Cameron Herold, your high energy leadership guru, here to pump you up on the Second in Command podcast. If you get frustrated because your managers aren't leading like you want them to be, check out my game changing leadership [e-mail] that's investinyourleaders.com for just 347 per leader you get 30 years. My proven experience straight from taking 1-800-got junk from 2 million to 106 million as COO and it's packed with 12 easy modules. Learn situational leadership coaching, delegation, conflict management management and more all in under six [e-mail] with straight to the point videos, worksheets and real life scenarios, your team will master time management, be able to hire a players and get aligned with your vision. It's all backed by a 30 day money back guarantee and raved about by hundreds of CEOs and thousands of managers already learning from the content. Grab this now and watch your business soar. So on the, on the franchisor side and especially in the operations side, we're the ones that have to say no. We're the ones that have to say not yet. We're the ones that have to roll out the decisions that can be harder on the franchisee. Whereas marketing, it's all pretty stuff. Maybe their, their marketing budget, but we're the ones saying you have to contribute more. How do you balance wanting to be liked, wanting to be part of the culture, and also needing to say no to the franchisees or not. Now, how do you. And does the CEO play a part in that, in helping you?

[A]

Yeah. So I think to the first part of your question, it is just brutal transparency, right? It is just brutal. Like, don't sugarcoat it. Don't, don't, you know, try and pretty it up and, or avoid having the conversation. It really is just having a direct conversation and not sugarcoating it. If it's a decision that we need to make and it's good for the system as a whole, you state your point, state the reasons why, and I want to understand how it's going to impact you. But at the end of the day, we're moving to get, we're moving forward in this manner. I think for at least my experience with CEOs and even, you know, other folks, you know, when I was a VP and somebody was a president or, you know, any kind of a role where there was a structure where I had to have the difficult conversation, it's my responsibility to have that conversation. I bring the CEO in when it's something that we can't move past. Right. I, I just truly believe that as the CEO, I own that relationship. I own that responsibility, and I don't want to skirt it. So. But I also don't have a problem if, if I feel like, hey, I'm just not hitting the mark on this one, or I'm just not, or it's just really becoming contentious to say, I may need some backup here and some support.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. The backup and the support, I think, is the key part. Right? Them. Them shining the spotlight on us to make us look good so that we can roll out those tough decisions, I think is all part and parcel of the, the issue. I also wanted just to ask about the franchisees and learning from them. You know, sometimes the franchisor has the best systems and the best ideas, but sometimes those trickle up from the front line. And when, when I left 1-800-got junk. I was their COO from, you know, 12 locations to 330 in six years. When I left, they brought in the former president of Starbucks USA to replace me. And she was like, oh, what a cute little company. She didn't like the franchisees. She didn't embrace the entrepreneurial culture. She came in from a very corporate lens and she was fired 12 months later almost because of that. How do you filter up the information from the franchisees? How do you go to them to find out more, to learn from them? How do you kind of embrace. Because sometimes they are making the Taco in a better way and not always too.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, right now, absolutely. So I think a couple of things, Cameron. One is I spend a lot of time in the field and not a lot of COOs do that. It is important to me that we, in this day of age of zoom and teams and working remotely. There is nothing that replaces sitting in a car with somebody traveling to their stores and learning their history and their journey through franchising and looking them in the face eye to eye, that investing in that upfront builds the foundation for when you have to have those hard conversations. And I never want to be in a position where I'm calling somebody that I haven't met yet or talked to yet that I've got to deliver bad news to because it's not going to be received well.

[B]

But how do you get the good things to come up from them? Like how do you get. How do you find the good ideas and the new best practices that are different from the operating manual? Is it part of having a franchise advisory council or, you know, what are the things, the systems that you use? Because I think anyone listening can also remember that we can learn from our frontline staff too. Sometimes they do have the new best ideas. Right?

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So I also spend time on the phone with the people who are working in the store. So it's important to spend time with the franchisees. And often they're not the ones putting their hat and apron on in the morning and going to the, to the stores. But with our, with some of our larger franchisees that have infrastructure with above store leaders and VPs, I connect with them on a regular basis to just kind of share what I'm thinking and, and the things that we're talking about internally and how does that impact you and what are your thoughts there? So getting. Gathering that feedback. And it's important because I will also tell you that I have learned over the years what a franchisee will tell you is happening in their stores is not often exactly what's happening in their stores.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

So, so, you know, an example would be. So the, you know, the first project I tackled at Taco John's was. Or the, you know, the, the discovery of. We've got different processes is whether you take the meat and place it in the bottom of the taco shell or whether you slide it up the side. And so. Right, I know, Interesting.

[B]

Okay, I'll work with this. Keep going.

[A]

So, you know, I, I sent a note to our franchise leadership team and said, hey, this is what, what I'm discovering. What, what are your thoughts on it? And so everybody gave me their thoughts and what was happening in their stores. And then when I traveled around to their stores, what they had said the process was, was not actually being executed in their stores. And they admitted it. You know, they laughed about it. Now, you know, and, and you know.

[B]

Do as I say, not as I do.

[A]

Right, exactly. Exactly. And some of it was not even do as I say, do as. You know, it was more historically, it had been split up the side. So the franchisees who had been in the system a long time are like, yeah, we slide it up the side.

[B]

Okay, so we do need to. This is probably the most important point you're going to make on the podcast. Do you put the meat on the bottom or do you slide it up the side?

[A]

We put it on the bottom.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Good. So we standardized one process.

[B]

Right. I put, I put the meat first, then I put the hot sauce, and then I layer all the goodies on top of that.

[A]

On top, yes. Yes. That is the way that I'm Canadian.

[B]

So I don't know what I'm doing.

[A]

Nope, that is, that is the, that is the official Taco John's way moving forward under Jackie as coo.

[B]

Okay. So some of, some of the other Taco John's way is the family owned side of the business. I mean, you are family owned from inception still to this day. And I think like everything, it brings its corresponding strengths and weaknesses. So what are some of the strengths? And I want to focus on the strengths. There's no point on the weaknesses. But how many generations are working in the business at Taco John's and what do you think some of those strengths are of being that family run business?

[A]

So we in, in some of our locations and some of our franchise organizations, they are on third generation, which is really phenomenal, you know, And Anti Ann's back in the day, when I started with them, was family run and owned. And I will tell you that Anti Ann's was not as successful with second and third generation franchisees as Taco Johnson. There is a long history and passion for this brand unlike anything that I've seen before. And they have figured out how to transition from generation to generation. Even if it's, even if it's not family to family, we have a number of franchise organizations where the franchisee actually was a GM in one of the stores early on. So, you know, it's unique. And I would say the, you know, the beauty of it is that you get all the history and all the culture and all the, you know, how it started, and you can rally a system around that about being, you know, we are Taco John's. And I will say I saw Auntie Anne's lose some of that because I've been through, you know, an organization where we were privately owned by. By a family, then sold, you know, and sort of had a, you know, an investment group and then sold again to private equity. And it changes the culture. There's good and bad, right?

[B]

Yeah. From the outside, walking past, I never felt like Auntie Anne's had a culture or like it was. It. It seemed very plastic. It seemed very. I. I don't know. There was, there wasn't a calling into it. Where Taco John's does have that feel to it still.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

Something about that, and I don't know what the analogy, like, it's almost like Sprint versus, you know, T Mobile. Like T Mobile had a culture. And I used to coach the CEO of Sprint, the former CEO, like, it just, it was, it was just corporate, like, you know, as kids would say. Six, seven, right?

[A]

Yeah, exactly.

[B]

All right, so that, that part makes sense. Now I want you to talk about where, where we are going right now and where the industry is going right now. The industry around food is changing. I read the other day that 14% of the current workforce in Korea is robots. You know, I listened to Travis Keller from the former CEO of Uber, what he's doing with the cloud kitchens movement and, and Robotize, bringing robots in. Are you looking at that? Are you waiting for the industry to look at that first and adopt later? Because it's just so expensive to be on the bleeding edge. Where are you on the robotic side of food and preparation in the business?

[A]

Yeah, so I would say on the robotic side, we're watching, it's because it's so hugely expensive. But just some of these organizations or these vendors and platforms that are coming out that literally cameras all over your store that tell you when you need to make taco meat, when you need to refresh temperatures, drop below something, or, hey, you need to order extra on your truck because you went through a lot of it and weights and measurements.

[B]

It seems like, it seems like overkill in many areas. Right.

[A]

It's so overkill. It's. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's hugely fascinating. But, but overkill. I think the things that we are leaning into is we just, just on.

[B]

That, I think you're smart to actually wait because I think Moore's Law is going to come in where the technology is going to get better and better every year and the cost of that technology is going to drop every year. There's no economic upside, there's no ROI for being first on the robotic side, I don't think. But go ahead.

[A]

Yes, agreed. Agreed. The things that we are leaning into is we are testing with an organization called Presto AI through our drive thru. So having AI take orders through our drive thru, it's been an interesting experience. And one of the things that I learned along the way is that in our more rural communities there is less acceptance of AI within an organization. So we've really got to kind of take a step back and say, hold on, are we sacrificing sales and transactions for speed of service? And you know, I wouldn't say labor reduction because this isn't really an exercise in reducing labor. It's redeploying labor to areas where we can work on speed and accuracy. Because the things that our consumer tells us is that they want speed, but we also have a problem with accuracy and we need to make sure that we're still creating that human interaction at the window.

[B]

Well, I don't know the restaurant space other than having been a client at one and one day back in my college pro days, having eaten at three different fast food restaurants for breakfast, lunch and dinner on the same day, which scares the crap out of me. Now I've never worked in this space, but my guess is that your real upside in the next three years is going to be on the franchisor side with leveraging AI versus on the franchise D side.

[A]

Yes, yes, absolutely. So how do we automate reports? How do we automate just manual tasks or common tasks that we do every day? So through reporting, through responding to guest complaints, to responding to, you know, help desk tickets that come in, is there a way to automate those that, that give the answer in simple situations as opposed to requiring a human to do that work?

[B]

And that's where the real, that's where the real upside happens, right?

[A]

Absolutely, absolutely.

[B]

I'm curious, how, how does the, how do you, at the franchisor level and, and even going back on your experience with NTNs and, and then the parent group, how do you focus on which areas of the business to stop growing. And what I mean by that is we, we had some franchisees back in the 1 800, got junk days that were always asking about the next marketing tool, the next marketing idea. And I was like, you're not using the top three that we tell everybody to use in the first place. Like, you're just not using like the core basic, foundational, fundamental things you're not doing. The silver bullet's not going to matter. So at one point we just stopped creating anything new and we started spending all of our time making sure they were working on the critical base level, foundational things. How do you balance that? You know, trying to come up with new, new stuff all the time, new creative, new piece. When, when sometimes it's not about new.

[A]

Yeah, it isn't. And, and I will tell you, that is what fragments a system, right? If you, if you've got too much going on it really, you gotta pull it back and go, let's just get back to basics and for God's sake, let's make a taco the same way, right? It's, you know, so, so you do have to have that awareness around you. Always be curious and looking at those things. But you gotta have a gut check that your base is operating the way that it needs to.

[B]

I saw that one day when I went into a Subway restaurant. This was going back about 10 years ago. And I was like, it just seemed very cluttered all of a sudden. Subway went from being very simple, very systemized. Like there were so many different pieces of marketing material everywhere. Like nothing seemed to just, it was almost confusing and overwhelming versus just, you know, very Lululemon would be a brand that I would walk into and go, wow, it just, it just kind of works, right? And there's some. So do you look for those opportunities?

[A]

Absolutely. And I'll give you an example of what we're working on right now. We overload, especially at the drive through window, the person who is, you know, handing out food to our guests and we, we hang all these things around the drive thru menu that says you have to, you have to ask if they have their, if they have the app, you have to ask them to take our survey. At the end of the receipt, you have to ask them if they, you know, want hot sauce. And then, and then ask them a couple more upsell, you know, make sure that you're upselling to the large drink. And oh yeah, by the way, when you do that, I want you to do it with a smile and be really happy, right? And I literally was in a store. And I was like, oh my gosh, if I had to work in this store, these people have the hardest job in our company and we have to simplify it. So we are, we are clawing all that back. And I was like, I do not want to see any more posters on the drive thru of telling them what to say. Let it be genuine hospitality. There are, you know, a couple things that we can focus on but let's calendarize it. Let's be really intentional about it instead of everybody sitting in the office going, my app is really important but my, my, you know, survey results are really important and you know, my sales are really important. So we need to upsell. Like we've got to pull them all.

[B]

Together with the customer being happy and the food. Like, yeah, we did the same thing at 1-800-got junk. Brian and I, coming back from a retreat decided to phone our call center and shit was just going sideways. And we realized that we were tracking on every five minute phone call 67 things on the quality assurance form. And we're like, wait, the five big ones they're not even doing. We're not picking up quickly. We're not wowing the customer. We're not handling objection. We're not hugging them at the end of the call. We're not doing a follow up. The five critical things. Who cares about the other 57 things that could be done? So we eliminated the whole 67 points and went back to five.

[A]

Yeah, that's it. Yeah, we're doing the same thing with our, we have a guest feedback system. At the end of the receipt you can call and tell us how we did. I took it. I took the survey the other day. There's like 47 questions. I was like, I just want to know, are you coming back? Tell me if you're coming back.

[B]

Yeah. What's my net promoter score?

[A]

Tell me why.

[B]

Right, yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. How do you rate us? Yeah, exactly. And I'm glad you see it from that lens because I think we do end up getting so. And then what ends up happening is we, we tend to then say we need to charge more, we need to have higher royalties to cover all these expenses of all this stuff that we're doing that nobody's using in the first place.

[A]

Exactly, exactly. And then, you know, you, when we've, you know, to your point on getting back to basics, right. We've the survey platform that we use, we have taught our managers that the most important thing is your overall satisfaction score. And so in their mind they're like, I just need to get more people who like us to fill out the survey so that I can increase my score and stop hearing from my fdc. And we've totally missed the point.

[B]

Yeah. Well, here's. And my most important metric is the happiness of employees. First.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

The customer's second. Because if I have really, really happy employees, they're going to wow the customers, which means the customers are going to be happy and they're going to give us nines and tens. But if I'm focusing on the customer, customer, my employees feel burned out and unloved and uncared for.

[A]

Right. We're just putting more shit on them. It's terrible.

[B]

Yeah. And I think the good franchisees get that. Do you have a franchise advisory council? Like, do you have a group? Yeah. How does that operate? How do you pull the information up from them?

[A]

So we meet a couple times a year, A couple times in person as well, which is super important. But on the outskirts, I also connect with them on a. On a regular basis. So it is, it's. But in those meetings, it's an opportunity for us to talk about. Okay, here's how I'm thinking about things. Here's like kind of the, the framework of a plan of how I want to tackle this and then get feedback from them. And, you know, the challenge with an advisory council, and I've experienced this in every, you know, all seven brands that I was with with Go To Foods and in Taco John's is it's very difficult and understandably to pull yourself out of your own situation and think about it more broadly of what's good for the system. And so when we get together with the entire group, it allows them to even talk to each other about, hey, I hear what you're saying, but here's why that won't work for me. And trying to get to a common place to be able to move forward.

[B]

Yeah, I like that. I want to ask you a couple more questions before we wrap. One is just in terms of where you are now in terms of modernizing the brand, where is Taco John's going? As you know, food is changing as customers demands around food is changing as healthier and organic and is changing. Where are you going that side of the business and modernizing Taco John's now?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, the value wars are on. Right. So we're really looking at, you know, at least from a menu perspective, getting back to quality and being able to message quality, but we can't. We can't Wave our magic wand and make that happen tomorrow. So we're leaning into value now as our bridge to quality and working on, you know, how do we have more fresh produce or, or you know, freshly made things in our stores so that we can screen that from the rooftop. That's a competitive advantage for us. You know, over, over, you know, the Taco Bell's, the McDonald's, the Wendy's of the world, which are direct competitors. Right.

[B]

But it's crap. I don't like it. I know I did, I did back, back when I was like 25, I'd go to Taco Bells, but it was usually because I was really drunk and I'd eat it and like, but it's just not good. Like whatever. I am looking for good quality, like at a good price. Like I. And that's kind of what I'm craving is that I think that's why Chipotle took off or initially was. It was perceived as. Or it certainly was better than what the other options were out there. And I think that's. So is that where you're kind of leaning into then?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, sure, you know, every Chipotle commercial that you see, they're like, you know, making guac fresh in the back of the. Right. It's, it's great messaging, but even Chipotle is leaning into the value now. So it's a balance, right? You've got it. You've got to find the balance. And then I think also, you know, as a, you know, the beautiful thing about being a family owned brand is that you can create that culture and, and a sense of community with the, you know, the people that work in our stores and that is a competitive advantage as well.

[B]

I'm curious, this is a question I'm going in blind on, but are there any corporate locations or is it all franchise locations?

[A]

There are corporate locations. So we have five in Cheyenne and then we have two in Minneapolis.

[B]

Okay, good. I'm glad, I'm glad I asked because I'm excited about this. I've always believed that a good franchisor has to operate some corporate locations so they can test everything so they can literally follow the manual to the T so they can actually show better numbers in every. Like we had a franchisee one time, they said, yeah, but you couldn't do it in the south side of Chicago. I'm like, okay, we're opening up in the south side of corporate and we kicked your ass there. Well, you couldn't do it in Atlanta. I'm like, watch Me do it in Atlanta. So. And why are we giving away all if the franchisees are making so much darn money, why don't we run some corporate ones and make all that money? Is there, is there, are you leaning into more corporate locations at all or are you operating the more as tests or are they buybacks that you then turn around and sell? Or is it all of the above?

[A]

It's yeah. So currently, right now we are not in the market for more corporate locations. Doesn't mean that we aren't considering, you know, as we think about expanding and moving beyond just our footprint, should we seed an area with some corporate locations and then sell it and. And develop it? Because that's a challenge for a small brand like us. Right? Like we can't go into Atlanta and open some stores. Nobody knows us there and you'd have to have 20 of them for it to make a difference. So. But we are heavily leaning into especially our two locations in Minneapolis because our culinary team is in Minneapolis, that it is our rapid testing store. And so we are just throwing stuff in there and saying, will this work? Does this have legs? And let's continue to develop it out. So we make that. We make our managers a little crazy, but they at least get to see what's coming and help develop what it looks like.

[B]

I love it. All right, I want you to go Back to the 21 year old Jockey Secor and give yourself some advice. What advice do you wish you'd known as a younger you that you know to be true today?

[A]

Trust your gut never leads you wrong.

[B]

Trust your gut. I thousand thousand percent agree. Jackie Secor, Chief Operating Officer for Taco John's, thank you so much for sharing with us on the Second in Command podcast.

[A]

Thank you, Cameron. Appreciate the time.

[B]

That was amazing. Thank you.

[A]

You've been listening to Second in Command, brought to you by COO alliance founder Cameron Herold. If you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to watch like, share and subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and our other podcast streaming platforms. For more best practices from industry leading COOs, visit COOAlliance.com.