Are You Addicted to Misery? Dry Drunk Behavior, Earned Love & Why Happiness Feels Impossible | #119

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy – Episode #119

Are You Addicted to Misery? Dry Drunk Behavior, Earned Love & Why Happiness Feels Impossible
Released: February 23, 2026
Hosts: Louie Paoletti & Michael Malone

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Episode Overview

In this raw, deeply personal episode, Louie and Michael explore their struggles with emotional growth, codependency, the concept of a “dry drunk,” and why happiness can seem unattainable. The friends peel back the layers on misery, self-sabotage, inherited patterns around self-worth, and the exhausting notion of "earning" love. What emerges is an honest, gently funny, and at times painful look at the messiness of healing and the real challenges of changing lifelong mental habits.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding “Dry Drunk” Behavior

• Michael shares that a friend recently described him as a “dry alcoholic,” unfamiliar territory for both hosts (08:00–09:00).
• Louie reads a checklist of “dry drunk” characteristics: acting self-important, harsh judgments, impatience, impulsivity, feeling unsatisfied, daydreaming, being disorganized, and backing out of 12-step commitments (08:44–10:20).
  • Michael deflects and jokes, “Unrelatable. Go on,” multiple times.
• Discussion turns to how these behaviors overlap with ADHD, and the hosts consider: Can you have “addictive” behaviors without substance abuse? (12:06–13:01)
• Both reflect on inherited patterns—alcoholism in Michael’s family, Louie’s struggles around food and codependency (11:04–12:56).

Louie (11:24): “It’s interesting how you can develop the behaviors of it without the substance.”

2. Is Happiness Even Real or Attainable?

• Michael recounts a recent session with his therapist, who suggested “maybe happiness isn’t for you”—a challenging idea that resonates uncomfortably (16:21).
• The hosts debate if happiness is even real, or merely a fleeting, Western concept. Louie admits he values peace or contentment over happiness, which he believes “comes in moments” (17:54).

Louie (17:54): “I more so desire peace and contentment, and happiness comes in moments—but it’s not something I chase anymore.”

3. The ‘Addiction to Misery’

• Michael is struck by how attached he feels to feeling bad or “miserable.” He introspects on a BoJack Horseman quote: “Even a better version of me is still me.” (18:18–20:55)
• He recognizes he is “smart enough to know that’s not healthy thinking,” but can’t shake the feeling that being miserable “just fits” (20:58–21:12).
• They discuss cynicism around positive thinking, mocking “what if it all works out” posters as naive (21:23–21:48).

Michael (21:04): “It just fits, you know? Feels the most realistic... makes the most sense.”

4. Gratitude, Mindset, and Feeling Stuck

• Michael struggles to access gratitude even when things are objectively good—bills paid, a new book on the way, sunny days (26:04–26:34).
  • He experiences fleeting moments of thankfulness, but the mindset doesn’t last.
• He identifies with being “hurt enough to not know how to be grateful,” despite being “smart enough to know” he should be (25:18–26:02).
• This returns to a cycle of self-neglect—“not showering, not brushing my teeth, not taking care of myself”—especially when in “work mode” (27:25–28:18).

5. Inherited Patterns: Learning to ‘Earn Love’

• Michael reveals he grew up around the belief you have to “earn love”—a narrative passed down by his mom, who always felt “too fat to be loved” (34:42–35:36).
• Louie challenges the idea that love should be earned: “You don’t earn love” (35:36).
• Michael admits he hasn't broken the habit and describes seeking inclusion as evidence he’s “earned” affection (36:18).

Michael (36:50): “A couple weeks ago, I got invited to a Super Bowl party. You earned that? Yup. By being cool, being whatever they needed me to be.”

6. Self-Worth and Identity

• Michael confesses to never feeling truly “fine”—always in survival mode (29:14–29:53).
• Louie draws an analogy: “It’s also crazy that you set the bear trap and you have the key and you’re still in the bear trap” (31:35).
• Michael fears being “not presentable,” worrying that others would think less of him if they saw his struggles (32:40).

7. Judgment, Perception, and Anxiety in Relationships

• Much of Michael’s paralysis in friendships comes from overthinking and anticipating judgment—offering help feels risky because he fears it’ll be misread (47:59–51:08).
• Louie encourages simple action (“Just do it... you can invite me, I’ll say yes or no”) and challenges Michael’s addiction to misery: “Would you rather be seen as the friend who does nothing at all?” (49:34–49:42).

Louie (52:00): “You are addicted to being miserable.”

• Michael acknowledges he can’t control others’ perceptions, but struggles to let go: “That’s tough” (52:05).

8. The Familiarity and Safety of Misery

• Louie posits that misery is “familiar and easy,” asking explicitly which is easier—being miserable or being happy (54:40–54:52).
• Michael jokes and deflects, underscoring how ingrained this mindset is.

Louie (54:41): “What’s easier? Being miserable or finding happiness? No, no, tell me the truth.”

9. Why Self-Love is Hard

• Michael asks how Louie has learned to like himself; Louie credits intentional work defining and sticking to his personal values, regardless of momentary slips (41:06–43:17).

Louie (42:40): “I can always find my way back to, like, I’m good... nobody can tell me otherwise.”

• Michael admits he can’t say the same with certainty—his “bad moments stick out more than the good” (45:10–46:18).

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Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------|-------------| | 08:44 | “Acting self important by either having all the answers or playing what is often referred to as, quote, poor me.” | Louie | | 16:21 | “Maybe happiness isn’t for you.” | Michael’s therapist (via Michael) | | 18:18 | “It feels so good to feel bad, and I don’t know why I’m so attracted to that, to misery.” | Michael | | 21:04 | “It just fits, you know?” | Michael | | 25:21 | “A lot of bad has happened, and so I’m jaded and hurt enough to be in that mindset of, like, yeah, this sucks.” | Michael | | 31:35 | “It’s also crazy that you set the bear trap and you have the key to the bear trap and you’re still in the bear trap.” | Louie | | 35:36 | “Well, you don’t earn love.” | Louie | | 41:06 | “I’ve put in a lot of intention on identifying the kind of character I want to have... And I know in the big picture, I’m good.” | Louie | | 52:00 | “You are addicted to being miserable.” | Louie | | 54:41 | “What’s easier? Being miserable or finding happiness? ...Which one’s easier?” | Louie | | 56:09 | “I don’t deserve to be anything else.” | Michael |

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Significant Timestamps

• 08:00–10:20 — “Dry drunk” traits explained; overlapping with ADHD
• 16:21–18:18 — Is happiness for everyone? The idea of happiness as a Western concept
• 18:18–21:23 — Attracted to misery, pop culture references (BoJack, S-Town)
• 25:21–26:34 — Gratitude in daily life and why it doesn’t stick
• 29:14–29:58 — The question “Have you ever been fine?”
• 34:42–35:47 — Parental models, “earning” love, self-worth
• 41:06–43:17 — Building self-worth intentionally and not letting others define you
• 45:10–46:18 — Michael struggles to view himself kindly; “bad moments stick out”
• 47:59–51:08 — Paralysis and anxiety over being a “good friend,” overthinking offers of help
• 52:00–54:59 — “Addicted to misery,” and the ease of familiar pain over pursuing happiness
• 56:09 — Michael’s admission: “I don’t deserve to be anything else.”

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is laced with the humor and self-deprecation that fans of Secondhand Therapy expect, but the mood is notably introspective and vulnerable. Both Louie and Michael balance raw self-examination with gentle ribbing, refusing “toxic positivity” but also challenging one another’s resignation.

Listeners will leave with new language to examine “addictive” emotional cycles, questions about their own relationship to earned love, and the uncomfortable realization that familiar misery is, for many, an easier emotional home than happiness.

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Final Thoughts

Secondhand Therapy #119 offers an unsanitized look at the real, nonlinear struggle of emotional growth and the allure of old, painful stories about ourselves. If you’re wrestling with feeling “stuck,” with old wounds or with letting go of inherited ideas about worth, their conversation is a reassuring—if sometimes bracing—reminder that you’re not alone.

Transcript

[Michael]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod if you're interested

[Louie]

in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[Michael]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Do they do that?

[Louie]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[Michael]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[Louie]

All right, so here's the thing. That he already did it. Okay? Now here. Here's the thing. If you want to talk to a psychic, and trust me, here's what you do. You go to trypsychic source.com/sht10, okay? You're going to get 40 minutes. 44. Zero minutes for $19.80. Now, you don't have to use all 40 minutes with one person. I didn't. I did 20 with. And look, mind your business. Talk about my love life.

[Michael]

Okay? All right.

[Louie]

Talk about my love life.

[Michael]

Trying to see some. Some.

[Louie]

Maybe some road bumps, just seeing if it's gonna be clear skies, and it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just like a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess. You're gonna do a medium.

[Michael]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Louie]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10. You get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it and then DM us because I want to hear how it went.

[Michael]

Oh, I can't. I. Please, please DM us.

[Louie]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[Michael]

I want the tea. Welcome back to Secondhand Therapy. We'd like to remind you that we are not therapists. We're not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way.

[Louie]

That's true.

[Michael]

God damn right, that is true. Oh, you're gonna hear some ads. You are so, so many ads. But there's a way to avoid that. You can head on over to say it with me now. Patreon. That's right. Patreon.

[Louie]

Patreon.com Secondhand therapy. Therapy pod.

[Michael]

Add free episodes. You get early access to episodes. You get merch discounts, you get live hangouts, you get access to our other podcast that's non therapy related. Call the other show. You get. And. And we have. When we have special things going on, they get it first. So head on over to Patreon. There's different tiers I'm sure you'd like to tell them the tiers.

[Louie]

There's different tiers. The first tier, you're gonna get your early and ad free episodes, and if you sign up for that, we're going to send you the greatest sticker ever designed. The second tier, you're going to get everything I just mentioned. You're also going to get access to the other podcast. You're also going to get access to all the bonus content, such as after the pod, such as asmr readings, such as whatever else today that was thirst traps that we talked about on the other podcast. So if you want to see one of us looking beefy and one of us not.

[Michael]

If you want to see two beefy dudes,

[Louie]

yep, that's on Patreon. And if you sign up for that too, you're gonna get the greatest sticker ever made, and then you're gonna get the greatest print ever made, and we are going to sign it for you and mail it to you. And then I'm gonna write a little note on the back for you, and then I'm gonna address the envelope to you and then I'm gonna drop it off.

[Michael]

How. How uncomfortable are you that the trap is up on. On Patreon?

[Louie]

In a word? Quite. Really, in a word, very. And then the last to live streams. We needed to do one this Saturday, just so you know.

[Michael]

Great.

[Louie]

If you're listening to this on Patreon, that's tomorrow. If you're listening to this live, that was two days ago.

[Michael]

You're too late.

[Louie]

You get access to live streams. And if you do that, when we're going to send you a T shirt designed by us, Inhouse with a logo that we're never going to sell.

[Michael]

That's right.

[Louie]

Oh, God. Don't look at the pictures, though. You know, sign up just for old

[Michael]

Louis traps over there.

[Louie]

Oh, buddy. Did you read the comments on this picture? I did. Well, take it down.

[Michael]

You got some fans.

[Louie]

Well, hey, who knew I owned a bakery? Who knew? Beefcakes in stock. Who knew it's on sale?

[Michael]

Nope.

[Louie]

Full price.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Louie]

In stock. Full price.

[Michael]

Head on over to Patreon Beef Cake. In other news, I wrote a book and it's up for pre sale right now at Velvet Tiger books dot com. It's called Modern Love and Other Natural Disasters. If you want to check it out, great. If you don't want to check it out, also great.

[Louie]

But check it out, because we don't know he's riding this motorcycle around. He died once.

[Michael]

All right. Yes, please buy.

[Louie]

Buy the book. Because after he's dead again. You can't buy it again.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's up for pre. Pre order right now. And with that comes a signed copy. You get stickers, you get a bookmark, you get a couple other surprises in there. So.

[Louie]

And when he says signed copy, he means I'm signing it.

[Michael]

That's right. He just traces his middle finger. And then. So head on over to VelvetigerBooks.

[Louie]

Can I sign the back of all of them and say you. You, Louie?

[Michael]

You, Louie. If they come. If they. If you mention that you are coming from secondhand. Yeah, yeah, I'll have. I'll have. I'll.

[Louie]

I'll just sign a page in the middle of the book. You, Louie.

[Michael]

Oh, you can contact us.

[Louie]

Don't.

[Michael]

You can Head on. Well, the details are in the description. You can send us physical mail to our PO Box, or you can send digital mail.

[Louie]

We're on Snapchat.

[Michael]

We are, unfortunately. We are on Snapchat.

[Louie]

You can get us our username. You couldn't do second. Secondhand Therapy pod because it was too long. So it's shitpod. Sht. P O D. That's us.

[Michael]

That's nice. But, yeah, you can send us some digital mail. You can send us some text or some voice memos, and sometimes we talk about it on air. We need to do another one of those sometime.

[Louie]

Yeah, we definitely talk about it here in this room.

[Michael]

A lot of judging, but, you know, no judging. Maybe the microphones are on, maybe they're not. Head on over. Yeah, send us a mail to our PO Box.

[Louie]

Send us a mail. Send us. We like recipes. We like Polaroids.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

I mean, I'm getting my ipod going. I'd love a mix CD or something to put on there. You find a mixed CD in your house, send it to a Papa Bear with the mailbox.

[Michael]

Oh, my God. Okay, well, head on over to Patreon. What are you still doing here? We love you. Let's do an episode, I guess.

[Louie]

Oh, God.

[Michael]

Exactly.

[Louie]

Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Michael]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[Louie]

And we know that. So you saw our old buddy Ken Gar recently?

[Michael]

I sure did.

[Louie]

He's. He's in town. Hopefully we can get him. I really want to get him for an episode. To school you on codependency, because he schooled me pretty good.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

So hopefully we can get him in the studio and we can do that. But he mentioned to you that maybe you could be what is known as a dry alcoholic.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

And I am very unfamiliar with that.

[Michael]

I have no idea what I had never even heard that term before and

[Louie]

I didn't have therapy today, so. I read about it.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Louie]

Do you want to talk about it? Yeah.

[Michael]

Because I just did a. A light Google of like. What is this?

[Louie]

What did you learn?

[Michael]

Not much. I'm going to tell you that I

[Louie]

sent a screenshot to my light phone here.

[Michael]

Okay. All right.

[Louie]

Some typical signs of a dry drunk are ready.

[Michael]

Why. Why does this feel so loaded? All right.

[Louie]

I just. Tell me if it sounds like.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Louie]

If this sounds relatable to you.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Louie]

Acting self important by either having all the answers or playing what is often referred to as, quote, poor me.

[Michael]

Unrelatable. Go on.

[Louie]

Making harsh judgments of yourself and others at times.

[Michael]

Unrelatable. Go on.

[Louie]

Struggling with impatience or impulsivity.

[Michael]

Unrelatable. Go on. Weird.

[Louie]

Acting impulsively.

[Michael]

Huh.

[Louie]

Acting selfishly.

[Michael]

None of this is resonating, really. It's weird.

[Louie]

Struggling to make decisions. Feeling unsatisfied. Oh, boy. Daydreaming. Fantasizing.

[Michael]

Okay. No, no. Can't. Really. Weird.

[Louie]

Distracted. Disorganized. No.

[Michael]

Very. Yeah. Very organized.

[Louie]

Starting a 12 step program. Commonly codependence, anonymous and being unable to consistently commit.

[Michael]

That's not on there.

[Louie]

It is.

[Michael]

No, it's not.

[Louie]

Yeah. Backing away from or dropping out of a 12 step program. Most commonly coda.

[Michael]

Really? Yeah. Okay.

[Louie]

And that's the list. I thought you might have had a couple, you know, what is.

[Michael]

What do you do about it?

[Louie]

Just one screenshot. I don't know. That's a question for your therapist.

[Michael]

Wow.

[Louie]

How much of that? You can say all of it.

[Michael]

How much of that?

[Louie]

Yeah, it was all of it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Oh, no. You're drunk, dude.

[Michael]

I'm drunk. I'm a drunk.

[Louie]

You're a dry drunk. So if you. So you never started drinking out. Was it because. Was it just out of fear or was it out of not wanting to repeat or like, what was the reason you never started or you didn't drink?

[Michael]

I think a little of both. It was like lack of control. And then also. Yeah. I just saw what alcohol does to people and I'm like, why would I want to do that? Yeah. I never saw any positive things with alcohol.

[Louie]

Yeah, same.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Yeah. I've never been a bit. I mean, I've never been a big drinker and I, like I've talked about here. I kind of live a sober life now and I've never had a problem with substances other than food, but yeah, it never really appealed to me either. It's interesting. Yeah. How you can develop the behaviors of it without the substance.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Because it Sounded like, from the surrounding information that I read, it's typically people who have quit drinking and then they maintain the behaviors without the alcohol. What are your thoughts?

[Michael]

I mean, honestly, a lot of that just sounded like adhd. Like it was like disorganized and like selfish tendencies, this and that. Like, all those things. I'm like, oh, yeah, I think that's the other thing. But I mean, I. I'm also not an expert. I don't fucking know.

[Louie]

ADHD is a selfish thing.

[Michael]

There's some tendencies in there. Yeah. Like some of those things. A lot. A lot of those things are ADHD stuff. And so I didn't know that. That. I mean, again, I don't know. Half a dozen of one and you know, the other. Yeah, I don't know what. I don't know what's what, but alcoholism runs in my family. I mean, we could do a marathon, you know what I mean? Like, it's. It hit everybody, so makes sense on that front. I've just. I've also never heard of it.

[Louie]

Yeah, I hadn't either.

[Michael]

Yeah. So I don't know.

[Louie]

How do you feel? Let's say

[Michael]

Yar. Yeah.

[Louie]

How's that feel? Also, to be clear, I didn't have therapy today, guys. I'm doing my best here. You know, I read some more of the Matthew Perry book. Not a lot to pull from. And then I heard the drag as I read about that.

[Michael]

Yeah. I don't know. I'm just more curious than anything else, I guess.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And. Yeah. And especially I'm like, so what? So what? If. If that is the case, then what do you do about it? I go to AA for not drinking. You know what I mean? Like, is that a thing? I don't know.

[Louie]

Maybe. I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. AA seems like, yeah, it's for staying sober. Maybe it is. Like, maybe it is coda.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Like, coda is the AA of dry drunks. And you back off because it's cuz. I mean, the main reason. Don't quote me on this. Somebody told me this a long time ago, I'm pretty sure. But the main reason people fall out of AA is because they don't want to face the truth of the problems they have. So it would make sense to me that if alcohol is not the problem, it's a behavior thing, then going to coda, maybe facing the truth of the problem is hard to like.

[Michael]

Yeah. And to be clear, like, I haven't intentionally stopped going to coda. That wasn't like a decision I made or something that I was like, oh, I'm not gonna go. Like, I'm still going, just not as often. And it's more of like, we talked about it the other day. It's like forgetfulness. I'm like, oh, today's Wednesday. I gotta do that thing. And then it's not. Then it's not Wednesday. And so that's more so what it is. I didn't. There wasn't like a. I can't handle this. I was loving it. I was loving discovering all of these things and learning more and. And you know, all that stuff. So, like. Yeah, that part of it when you're reading that I was like, oh, yeah. I didn't. Like, I'm not like, oh, I can't handle code. Like, no, I love being in coda. I'm just a forgetful.

[Louie]

Knew it's possible there's a subconscious thing.

[Michael]

No. Because I was enjoying it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Louie]

What's going on with you?

[Michael]

That's kind of like one of the things we talked about was. A little bit about, like, not taking care of myself when I'm in work mode and things like that and not taking care of myself in general. And why, like, what. What is going on with that? And why can't I give a. About myself more? And my therapist hit me with an odd thing. He said, maybe happiness isn't for you. Isn't that a weird meaning?

[Louie]

What?

[Michael]

Like, we got on this idea of, like, do I actually want to be happy? Yeah. And he said, I have an answer.

[Louie]

He does not.

[Michael]

He said, maybe happiness isn't for you,

[Louie]

Meaning it's not a desire, it's not an option.

[Michael]

Meaning that it's not for everybody. Happiness is not for everybody. He quoted. I forget who he quoted, but he was saying that happiness is a. Is a Western idea. Yeah. And I'm so used to the. The opposite. Or like the pushback being like, of course. Of course you want to be happy. Or like everybody wants.

[Louie]

I don't.

[Michael]

Yeah. And it was just like, is happiness for you? I'm like, oh, I don't know. What do you mean it's not for you?

[Louie]

I mean, I've said that I'm not really. I've been pretty vocal. I don't know that happiness is even real.

[Michael]

Yeah, we talk about that. Yeah. But.

[Louie]

Yeah, so, I mean, and I've talked about it a lot. I more so desire peace and contentment and happiness comes in moments. But, yeah, it's not something I chase anymore. You don't recall me talking about that.

[Michael]

I do, but not in a way of, like. I don't know. I feel like that's still under the umbrella of, like, happy.

[Louie]

Okay.

[Michael]

I don't know. You didn't feel that way?

[Louie]

No. Like I said, I don't. I'm not even convinced it's real. So.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

I don't know.

[Michael]

Yeah. I'm coming at it more from an angle of, like, it feels so good to feel bad, and I don't know why I'm so attracted to that, to misery. Yeah. I told him. I was like. I was like, this is so stupid. But I was like this. I'm smart enough to know better. Like, I'm self aware enough to know better. Like, this stupid BoJack clip came up the other day, and he. He said in the. In the clip, he was like. He was talking to Diane, and he's like, I'm sorry. I wanted to be better when I saw you again. And he's like. And I. And she's like, what are you talking about? He's like, I just wanted to be different. I wanted to be better, but even a better version of me is still me. And I was like, yeah, man. And then. But I'm smart enough to be like, oh, hey, that's not healthy. That's not healthy thinking. Like, that's. He's good guy. That's not good guy. Like, don't be like him. But I latched on to that. I was like, oh, that's so relatable. Like, yeah, even a better version of me is still me. And it's like, hey, hey, man. Hey, that's not what we're doing here. We're. We're just trying to get, like. We're trying to get somewhere total different. And, yeah, I don't know why. And I was talking about that. And I was talking about when I listened to the podcast S Town back in the day, and I related to a lot of things that he was saying, and that guy was miserable. And one of my favorite things in that whole series is he has a sign in his workshop, has three glasses, and it says, I'm. I'm half full. I'm half empty. And the third glass says, I think this is piss. And I'm like, yeah, that's it. Like, this sucks. And I'm like, no, no, no, that's not cool, man. Like, that's not. That's not a good way to think. So I'm like, self aware enough and smart enough to know, like, that's not it. But Also, I'm so attracted to that being it.

[Louie]

What's attractive about it?

[Michael]

I don't know. It just fits, you know?

[Louie]

I don't. What does fits mean?

[Michael]

Feels the most realistic or feels like the most. It makes the most sense. I'm like, yeah, this sucks.

[Louie]

What sucks?

[Michael]

Just, you know, I was mocking in therapy today. I was mocking those, like, posters that are like. They're like, what if it all works out? Oh, cool, dude. Are you done? Like, what if it all work? What if it's better than you imagined? Hey, it's not. It sucks. It all sucks. Like, what are you talking about? What if it's better?

[Louie]

You believe that?

[Michael]

I don't want to believe it. I don't want to be attracted to that. But that's what makes the most sense to me. I know we talk about better help a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[Louie]

They are a sponsor, dude.

[Michael]

I'm using better help. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for, and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[Louie]

Yeah, yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[Michael]

Not a good fit. Hey. And that happens. Finding good therapist is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[Louie]

And you're married now.

[Michael]

Oh, no.

[Louie]

Never.

[Michael]

Never.

[Louie]

You're in love now.

[Michael]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[Louie]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[Michael]

Absolutely not.

[Louie]

Let's do one together.

[Michael]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[Louie]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you?

[Michael]

Dude?

[Louie]

You think I'm not gonna walk out with the trophy?

[Michael]

I know you will.

[Louie]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor. And if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us, you can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy, and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhand therapy. We love you guys. I don't understand what you mean when you say, it makes the most sense.

[Michael]

Like. Like, okay, like, when you say, I, I don't know if happiness is real. Right. Like, and you believe that? Right? Like, that just seems like the answer. Right? Like, people have to be dumb to be happy kind of thing. Like, that's your. That's your argument kind of thing. Right.

[Louie]

Like, I don't know that I have a belief around it. It's more of an unknowing. But I could. I could get on board with, you have to be truly dumb to be happy. Let's go with that.

[Michael]

Yeah, but you just. So that just feels like something that you know or that you feel like. Feels right.

[Louie]

Okay.

[Michael]

That's the way I feel about, like, when people are like, it's all gonna

[Louie]

work out, and it makes sense to you that that's dumb.

[Michael]

Yeah. I'm like, no, it sucks here,

[Louie]

just being existing.

[Michael]

Yeah, it. Yeah, it's just like, yeah, it's. No, it's not. It's not. It sucks. It's gonna suck.

[Louie]

Does it always suck for you?

[Michael]

I guess that's where happiness comes in, right? It's not that it's, like, bad all the time, but I'm just not happy. I don't know how to be happy. I'm working on being grateful. That was the other thing I shared. I was like, I am smart enough to know that I. How grateful I should be, but I'm also hurt enough that I don't know how to be grateful.

[Louie]

What do you mean, hurt enough?

[Michael]

A lot of bad has happened, and so I'm jaded and hurt enough to. To be in that mindset of, like, yeah, this sucks. And I've been really practicing being grateful in moments, both when I'm feeling that way and when I'm not feeling that way. I like to remind myself in the last few months, like, I've been practicing, like, trying to almost convince myself that things are good and that I am grateful. You know, I'm reminding myself of things that I should be grateful for and, like, what.

[Louie]

What should you be grateful for that you're not?

[Michael]

I mean, the other day I was on the bike. I think I was either going to or coming from coffee with you, and I'm like, dude, it's like a Wednesday afternoon. You're on your bike, it's sunny out, your bills are paid, you have a book coming out. Like, you have coffee with your friend, like, in the afternoon, like, a random afternoon. Like, things are good. Life is good. Be grateful.

[Louie]

But you're unable to feel grateful.

[Michael]

I feel it in those moments, but it's brief.

[Louie]

Do you not find that most feelings are fleeting?

[Michael]

Maybe feeling isn't the word. Maybe it's mindset. That mindset doesn't stick around.

[Louie]

Why not?

[Michael]

I don't know. It just goes back to being like, yeah, this sucks. I feel stuck in a lot of ways.

[Louie]

You sound stuck.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. And. I. I'm having a hard time taking care of myself, especially when I'm in. We were talking about, like, work mode kind of thing, like, trying to finish the book. Like, I'm not showering. I'm not brushing my teeth. I'm not eating right. I'm not being active. Like, I'm just not taking care of myself. And I caught myself in therapy today saying something verbatim. My mother would say, oh, let's hear it. Foreign. I'm fine. He asked me how I felt about not taking. I'm fine. And then I went, holy, dude. My mother. Like, my mother could have her foot in a bear trap and be like, hey, do you. I'm fine, Michael. I'm. Don't worry about me, ma. Let's get your leg out of a bear trap. That's how I feel about myself. I'm like, I'll be fine. All this other stuff is more important. I'll be fine.

[Louie]

Have you ever been fine?

[Michael]

I don't know. I always survive.

[Louie]

You ever been fine?

[Michael]

I'm sure I have.

[Louie]

I'm not. When you say sure, are you actually sure, or is it just so uncomfortable to think about?

[Michael]

I don't. I mean. Define fine.

[Louie]

I'm not the one who said it. My guy. You define fine.

[Michael]

I don't think so.

[Louie]

So how are you going to be fine if you've never actually been fine?

[Michael]

I gotta start putting myself. No, I don't. I almost said. I almost said not first. Holy. That even felt like you're being selfish. Can't put yourself first. What are you doing? Yeah. Hey, what is that? Hey, what is that? That's.

[Louie]

Mama, Open your eyes. Alone. We weren't even talking. Fell asleep.

[Michael]

What else you got going on? What's up with you,

[Louie]

dude? My. My friend's a dry drunk, his mom is still ruining his life, and he doesn't want to talk about it.

[Michael]

Sounds terrible.

[Louie]

That's what's going on with me, bro. What does this say? Runs from the truth. What were you closing your eyes for?

[Michael]

Yeah, man.

[Louie]

Yes, man.

[Michael]

I'm in a. I'm in a bear trap. And I. Yeah, Yeah.

[Louie]

It's also crazy that you set the bear trap and you have the key to the bear trap and you're. And you're still in the bear trap. That's what's wild.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[Louie]

So you're in a bear trap. Yeah, it's fine.

[Michael]

It's fine.

[Louie]

You're fine. Do other people see you in the bear trap?

[Michael]

I don't think so.

[Louie]

Because you don't let them or they're not paying attention or. Why?

[Michael]

Probably both.

[Louie]

What would they say?

[Michael]

I mean. I mean, you do. You're a hunter. You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Louie]

And if not me saw you in a bear trap, what would they think or say about you?

[Michael]

Well, being in a bear trap is not very presentable now, is it?

[Louie]

Mm.

[Michael]

Yeah. So they would probably think less of me.

[Louie]

Yeah. Okay. Being in a Barrett trap is not presentable, so they will think less of you. Interesting. Do you think that the way your mom talked about other people is how you think people are talking about you?

[Michael]

Yeah, I heard somebody bring that up. I think, on a podcast recently. They were talking about self worth or this or that, and that was brought up, and I related to that very much. They were saying, however. However you heard your parents or adults around you talk about other people.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Is kind of programming how you view yourself when. How you think other people are viewing you when you think about, like, what we're talking about, like, oh, yeah, I'm not being presentable. Why do you think that? Because if my mom or dad or whatever would look at me and be like, this guy is it.

[Louie]

They would look at you or they would look at anybody.

[Michael]

Anybody. But you were in that position. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, that's. That was a justification of. Of just a position. Sorry. Of the. The two.

[Louie]

So your mom was judgmental as

[Michael]

she was worried about being judged.

[Louie]

Did that cause her to judge other people?

[Michael]

I would imagine so, yeah. She wasn't outright judgmental, but she was worried.

[Louie]

Like, imagine she's not listening.

[Michael]

Yeah, I am. Like, there was never, like, any, like, talking. But she loved the tea. You know what I mean? And I love the tea. I love the gossip. So she'd participate in that. But it was never, like, we'd be out and about and she'd be like, well, look at her. That was never a thing. But she would always think, like, I can't leave the house like this. They'll think, blah, blah, blah. She was always. I was talking about this today. Like, she was always too fat to Be loved. She was always too fat to fit into clothes that she liked. She was always. Yeah, she just wasn't. She just wasn't enough to earn love.

[Louie]

Well, you don't earn love.

[Michael]

I know we've been over this, but that's what it was like. Yeah.

[Louie]

Do you think you still try to earn love?

[Michael]

Yeah, I haven't broke that habit yet. I. I don't. I don't know how to turn that off yet. All the way. Like, I don't. I don't fully understand it because it's just been beaten in my brain like that, like. Yeah.

[Louie]

How do you know when you've successfully earned the love? What does it look like?

[Michael]

Acceptance. Yeah.

[Louie]

And that looks like what?

[Michael]

Inclusion.

[Louie]

That means they love you.

[Michael]

No, I mean, I think you're getting hung up on the word love, but, like. Yeah, that means that they like you or love you. Yeah. Inclusion.

[Louie]

When's the last time you've successfully earned some love?

[Michael]

A couple weeks ago, I got invited to a Super bowl party.

[Louie]

You earned that?

[Michael]

Yep.

[Louie]

How would you do?

[Michael]

Being cool. Being around. Being whatever they needed me to be. I think.

[Louie]

Okay.

[Michael]

I don't know.

[Louie]

Is that really what you believe happened?

[Michael]

Yeah. Being likable. Being, you know. Yeah. Being. Being just enough and not too much.

[Louie]

Do you enjoy being in rooms that you have to earn your way into?

[Michael]

I don't know any other way, so I can't answer that.

[Louie]

Have you. Have you ever been in a room that you didn't have to earn your way into?

[Michael]

I couldn't tell you. I don't know.

[Louie]

Damn.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Are you uncomfortable?

[Michael]

A little bit.

[Louie]

Why?

[Michael]

Because I don't know these answers. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what that looks like. What does that look like?

[Louie]

I don't. I don't think you're.

[Michael]

You show up uninvited.

[Louie]

I don't know, man.

[Michael]

Yeah. I don't.

[Louie]

I don't think you. One, I don't think you want to be in a room you haven't earned your way into. And two, I don't think you would believe you were in a room that you hadn't earned your way into. I don't think you would believe that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

I would think you would convince yourself that you earned your way in.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it?

[Michael]

Oh, my God.

[Louie]

Are you?

[Michael]

Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybody else. Sure.

[Louie]

Okay. All right. Well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone.

[Michael]

Okay? Okay.

[Louie]

It's called the light phone.

[Michael]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[Louie]

The light. Yeah, you seem to use it. The light phone. Also known, some people call it a dumb phone. Anyway, it's a smartphone. It has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation. It has a calendar and a flashlight.

[Michael]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[Louie]

Kinda.

[Michael]

Oh, yeah, I love that.

[Louie]

It has a pretty cool camera too. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got a dope camera on it. It's got a camera. Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough, they sent us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone three, use code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[Michael]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[Louie]

Stop your doom scrolling. Be more present in life. Link down below. Promo code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world. Why do you hate yourself so much? Oh, man. Dude.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Louie]

Damn.

[Michael]

Yeah. Hey. I don't know, man.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Do you?

[Michael]

Why? How do you like yourself so much? There's a question. How'd you figure that out?

[Louie]

I don't think it's a thing I figured out. And also, I don't always like myself, but I've done. I've done a lot of intention. I've put in a lot of intention on. Identifying the kind of character I want to have. And once I identified that, I committed to implementing it. And I'm not perfect at it. I still do and say things that I shouldn't. I'm hypocritical all the time, but I know in the big picture, I know that I'm a good person. I know that I'm kind. I know that I'm a good partner. I know that I'm a good friend. I'm sure I could be a better partner. I'm sure I could be a better friend. I'm sure I could be a better brother and a better son and a better uncle. I could be better at all those things, but I know I'm good.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

And I don't. I don't let other people. Tell me otherwise.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

I'll have moments where somebody will say something and it'll hurt and it might fuck with my head a little bit, but I can always find my way back to like, I'm good, like, gonna have moments where I'm not. I'm gonna be hypocritical. I'm gonna do all that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

And. But nobody can tell me, hey, you're disrespectful. Hey, you're unkind. Hey, you're like, you. You can tell me that all you want. It's not true. I might be those things in moments, but I'm not those things.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

And I know that. What do you know about your.

[Michael]

I don't think I'm any of those things.

[Louie]

What do you know about yourself? What are you. Doing?

[Michael]

I don't know. I don't know. I think. I don't think. I think I'm selfish.

[Louie]

Do you know you're selfish? What do you know to be true about yourself?

[Michael]

I don't. I really don't. I find myself fighting in my head right now about, like, I can't say any of those things you said about yourself with, like, the certainty that you say them.

[Louie]

Is there anything else you could say about yourself with certainty? Do you have your own list?

[Michael]

Not really.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I'm not very disciplined. I don't always show up in friendships. I don't always show up in relationships. I.

[Louie]

But I just said those things, too, that I could be better. And sometimes I'm like, I just said all that, too.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Why is it different, do you think?

[Michael]

I think the bad moments just stick out more than the good moments for me. I find myself a lot of times feeling awkward or a lot of anxiety around the decisions that I make or what to do, even if I know it's the thing to do.

[Louie]

Give me an example. I don't think I understand what you're saying.

[Michael]

Like, I don't. I'm just gonna pick a random thing. Like, if a friend is coming in and they're coming into the airport, like, the thing to do is be like, I'll pick you up at the airport. But I have a lot of anxiety about even offering to come pick you up at the airport, because maybe you don't want me to. Maybe you have other plans. Maybe you got this or that. So, like, maybe I don't offer. And then they go, this guy won't even pick me up at the airport. And I'm like, oh, I've thought about that 1 million times. So good friend would just be like, hey, man, I'll pick up at the airport. I don't know how to show up like that without overthinking it, without feeling like, is this the right answer? Or not? Or whatever the. And so, like, that Puts me in bad friend category, where it's like, this guy. This guy didn't even offer to pick me up at the airport, or he. Maybe it's not even on his radar or whatever the. You know, like. So I find myself more so in that category than the other one. And that's why I'm like, yeah. When I'm going through these lists, like, yeah. It's more bad than good. Yeah. I know that's a very surface level example, but.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. That's just it. Like, I'm so unsure that it usually lands me in the other one.

[Louie]

You're so insured that you take no action at all.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Do you have a desire to start taking more action?

[Michael]

Yeah. And I. I have been, but it's hard. You and I talked about something today that was a weird conversation for me to be. Like, how do I invite you to things that you know? Like, that whole conversation, like

[Louie]

what I say.

[Michael]

Just do it.

[Louie]

Yeah. You can invite me.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

And I can either say yes or no.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

And you can tell me whether or not it's important to you that I'm there.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

And then I can say yes or no. Yeah. That's all we can do, man.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Louie]

Where's the paralysis for you?

[Michael]

Perception of. I guess it is. Yeah. I guess what holds me back is other people thinking that I'm doing something out of obligation instead of out of something that I. Good. That I want to do.

[Louie]

Would you rather be seen as the friend who does nothing at all?

[Michael]

No.

[Louie]

Isn't that the choice you're making, though?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

So what you talking about?

[Michael]

I don't know, man, but I feel like. Yeah. I mean, it goes either. It can go like, I. That's control. That's control. Yeah. I can't control what they. How they see me or. You know what just came up for me in. That was, like. We were having that yard sale, and I said, I'm gonna go run and get some soda, some Diet Coke or whatever. And I was like, do you guys want. And I was, like, offering to get some food or Diet Coke. And you're like, you can just go get Diet Coke. You don't have to. Like, you don't have to offer because you feel guilty. And I was like, that's not what's happening. And it made me feel so bad because I'm like, I'm trying to be a good friend right now. I'm trying to just be like. I'm trying to just do something good. Like, I know you guys are holding down the fort. And you're here like, let me do something for you. And you were like, you feel guilty? Like, this is why you're doing it. And I'm like, I think it's because

[Louie]

you said, do you want me to pick you guys up some food on my way back?

[Michael]

Yeah. Because I was going to be out.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. So I was like, let me. Let me go do something for you guys.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And it is like, oh, yeah.

[Louie]

I didn't read it that way at all.

[Michael]

Yeah. And that's. But that's the gamble, right? I can't control that.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

All I can do is offer to go get food.

[Louie]

Huh.

[Michael]

And you can be like, this guy, or you can be like this guy.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You know, and that's hard, man. Yeah.

[Louie]

Because it's hard for you. If I misread why you're doing something, it's hard for you to let it go. That I misread it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I see. Yeah.

[Michael]

Or anybody, not just you. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's what it is, is like, hey, you're flying in. Let me pick up at the airport. This guy, he doesn't want to come to the airport. I got it. I'll take an Uber. Okay.

[Louie]

Who says that?

[Michael]

I don't know. But they would just be like, I know he doesn't want to come. I just. He doesn't want to do that. He's just. He's just being nice again.

[Louie]

How do you know what they're thinking?

[Michael]

Exactly. I don't. Yeah.

[Louie]

You are addicted to being miserable.

[Michael]

But that's the hurdle, right? Like, of getting over that. Letting go of that control of being like.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

They can think that. They can think that I'm just doing it to be nice or just doing it because I think I need to pick them up at the airport. They can think that. Let go of that. That's tough.

[Louie]

What?

[Michael]

Shut the up. Hey, do me a favor real quick. Shut up.

[Louie]

Do you hear yourself? Have you considered trying the idea that you're not friends with a bunch of pieces of. And maybe they're not constantly looking to judge you all day long.

[Michael]

I. We've been over this.

[Louie]

Huh?

[Michael]

Everybody's watching. Everybody's judging.

[Louie]

No, just your mother. She's the only one watching and judging all the time.

[Michael]

Sir, she's a saint. I'm not gonna tell you again. She can do no wrong. She's a saint.

[Louie]

Because they're gonna think, what's. Why is that person in your life? Dude, they suck.

[Michael]

Yeah, man.

[Louie]

Do you feel bad that you think so lowly of the people in your life.

[Michael]

I don't look at it like that. I look at the thinking so lowly of me. I don't think anything of that. I think they're great.

[Louie]

But if they think of you like that, they're great.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's not. It's not. That's not a their thing. That's a me thing. I'm smart enough to know that that's not true. But I'm also. It goes back. I'm smart enough to know that's not true. I'm hurt enough not to not believe it.

[Louie]

What?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

People dying did that to you?

[Michael]

I don't know, man.

[Louie]

Just hold on.

[Michael]

Life and death did that to me.

[Louie]

You're smart enough to know that that's not true.

[Michael]

I'm smart enough to know that they're not pieces of. To be like this guy. But I am also hurt enough to. To not believe it, that that's true.

[Louie]

Are you sure that you don't just want to be hurt enough that you like being a miserable, hurt guy? Because then you don't have to reshape your identity.

[Michael]

I mean, that goes back to the attractive. Like, why am I attracted to that? Like, why am I. Why is that something that I want rather than happiness or gratitude or.

[Louie]

Oh, because it's familiar and it's easy.

[Michael]

Hey, what's familiar?

[Louie]

Sure, quick question. What's easier? Being miserable or finding happiness? No, no, tell me the truth. Which is which? Easier have you found so far in your life? Which one's easier?

[Michael]

Hey, man.

[Louie]

Yeah?

[Michael]

It's all gonna work out, you know.

[Louie]

Yeah.

[Michael]

One of it's better than we thought.

[Louie]

What if you stepped six inches to the right of that bear trap instead of swan diving into the. What about that? This. I'm smart enough to know they don't think that. But, you know, my dad died when I was 10, so. Can't believe it.

[Michael]

Hello, Bear trap.

[Louie]

Hi. You love Misery.

[Michael]

Yeah. Oh, I don't know why.

[Louie]

That is a big bummer.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Big old bummer.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Louie]

Now that's what I call a big bummer.

[Michael]

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Louie]

Mama coming back. What? Mama gotta say no. Okay. Take your time, young man.

[Michael]

I don't deserve to be anything else.

[Louie]

Yeah. You believe that?

[Michael]

Unfortunately, yes.

[Louie]

And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.