Codependence, Avoidance & Heartbreak | #096

Summary

Podcast Summary: Secondhand Therapy

Episode: Codependence, Avoidance & Heartbreak | #096

Date: August 25, 2025
Hosts: Louie Paoletti & Michael Malone (plus recurring guest Kara)

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the messy terrain of parental relationships, childhood voids, codependence, the pitfalls of seeking repair, and the unique pains of heartbreak and grief. Louie and Michael, best friends and self-proclaimed “unlicensed therapy enthusiasts,” use their own therapeutic journeys and life experiences to unpack how emotional needs, attachment styles, and avoidance show up in everyday relationships—from family to romance. Their usual blend of humor and raw honesty keeps things relatable, with frequent moments of vulnerability, self-reflection, and friendly teasing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Radical Acceptance and Parental Relationships

Timestamps: 07:27–14:16

• Radical acceptance isn't always necessary—sometimes, if you honestly don't want or need a relationship, there's no need for further emotional labor.
• Louie on his parents: He shares ongoing struggles in radically accepting his emotionally distant mother and the void of a father figure due to his father’s narcissism and absence:

  "Just accepting that that's probably not going to happen... accepting who she is and... more importantly, who she isn't." – Louie (09:09)

• Exploring fatherhood: The hosts reflect on having (or lacking) father figures, sharing vulnerable memories of absent dads, lost grandparents, and stepparents stepping in later in life.
  • Louie: “I've never looked for a father figure. I’ve never looked for someone to fill that void.” (10:42)
  • Michael: Despite a present stepdad (Wayne) in his teens, he doesn’t view him as a true father figure and discusses complex feelings about timing and belonging.

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2. Attachment, Repair, and Codependence

Timestamps: 24:16–33:14

• Whose job is repair? Louie questions why the onus always feels on the child to repair ruptured parent-child relationships, suggesting it should be the parent’s responsibility.

  "If I had a child and there was a falling out ...I would do my best to patch it up." – Louie (25:56)

• Capacity and desire to reconnect: Not every relationship or friendship needs repair; willingness to re-engage depends on context and personal need.

  • “If I don't miss the relationship or have a desire to have it back in my life... I don't.” – Louie (30:59)

• Codependence & People Pleasing: Michael reflects on his people-collecting tendencies, linking them to deep codependence and a need for acceptance or community—even in fleeting, everyday interactions.

  "It's not like money. I'm not Pokemon trying to collect them all." – Michael (31:10)

  • For Michael, even brief exchanges with strangers can feel affirming: “I feel good talking to strangers... Acceptance. So we are exchanging and having a moment.” (36:00)

• Louie’s skepticism: Louie pushes Michael to consider whether this “acceptance” is genuine connection or just a pattern of seeking superficial affirmation.

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3. Heartbreak, Long-Distance, & Emotional Whiplash

Timestamps: 38:13–53:49

• The heartbreak context: Michael opens up about a recent, healthy breakup from a long-distance relationship, naming the pain of “yo-yo effect” (a.k.a. emotional whiplash)—the cycle of closeness during visits and depressive longing in between.

  "My nervous system would just go crazy... I would get in the rhythm of the relationship... and then it just gets... gone and it’s back to this reality of loneliness." – Michael (40:11)

• Attachment styles at play: He identifies as codependent and anxiously attached, while his partner is secure and avoidant—creating a push-pull dynamic.

  "With my codependency and anxious attachment, I'm just more used to, like, giving more of myself to my partner." – Michael (43:13)

• The pain of healthy endings: Unlike past chaotic breakups, this one was amicable, which brought its own confusion and ache:

  “It’s harder because it doesn’t feel real or permanent... Those relationships are dead, the ones that go south. But this one was still very much alive.” – Michael (49:52)

• Grief’s “twin brother”: Michael describes the heartbreak as akin to grief after a death, but “haunted” by the person’s ongoing existence.

  “It feels like you’re choosing grief, not experiencing it.” – Michael (53:32)

• Louie reframes: Sometimes regret and longing are simply part of the human experience, and not every rupture should be fixed—sometimes it’s about moving forward.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Louie on unconditional repair:
  “It’s my kid, dude.” (26:37)

• Michael on heartbreak: "It's Grief's twin brother. Only this person's still alive..." (46:23)

• Louie’s tough love:
  “Don’t give everything to your partner... because then there’s nothing left for you unless they are there.” (43:58)

• Michael, on codependence masked as community:
  "I like connecting with people... It cost me nothing to smile or laugh along." (31:07, 32:29)

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Segment Timestamps for Reference

• Parental Relationships & Radical Acceptance: 07:27–14:16
• Father Figures & Upbringing: 14:16–24:16
• Repair Dynamics & Codependence: 24:16–33:14
• Acceptance, Community & Kindness: 33:14–38:12
• Heartbreak & Long-Distance Relationships: 38:13–53:09
• Grieving Healthy Breakups: 49:00–53:49

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Tone and Style

• The hosts employ a mixture of self-deprecating humor, candor, and gentle ribbing, keeping the tone accessible—even when discussing difficult emotions.
• The discussions are candid, occasionally tangential, but always grounded in personal experience and an earnest desire to understand and grow.

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Conclusion

This episode skillfully explores the tangle of codependence, avoidance, family wounds, and the ache of heartbreak. Louie and Michael provide a compassionate, humorous, and unfiltered look at their struggles with connection, acceptance, and letting go—offering listeners both solidarity and food for thought.

Transcript

[Brodie]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. Jesus.

[Ketchum]

That's a bear.

[Kara]

It's not.

[Brodie]

Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.

[Ketchum]

Right.

[Brodie]

If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use Better Help recently?

[Ketchum]

Yes, I have. I just signed up.

[Brodie]

How'd it go?

[Ketchum]

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch like a. There's like two or three pages of people that I got to choose from and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago. Nice.

[Brodie]

Have you used their journal feature?

[Ketchum]

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.

[Brodie]

Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know, you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just. It's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better Help's a good option. And they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys. If you're listening and you want to start with BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Getting therapy, you know, it's great.

[Ketchum]

Check it out. It can't.

[Brodie]

Yeah. It also can't be fun to feel like that. But who gives a about your feelings, you know?

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

And that's co. Dependence.

[Ketchum]

Welcome back to Second Hand Therapy. I want to remind you that we are not therapists. We're not licensed professionals. This is not professional advice in any way. Way.

[Brodie]

Nor is it a substitute for therapy.

[Ketchum]

That's right. I was so close. Nope. I was close.

[Brodie]

It's been two years.

[Ketchum]

B.

[Brodie]

It's been two years. B, F. F. It's been two years. You've had two years to study weekly.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Still failing the test.

[Ketchum]

Anyways, welcome to the show in Ohio.

[Brodie]

They shoot you for that?

[Kara]

God, I wish.

[Brodie]

But only at a school. America. You know what I'm saying?

[Ketchum]

America, baby.

[Brodie]

I hate it here.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Hey, you're going to hear some ads, Pa Hopefully. I think we got that figured out.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

You're going to hear ads.

[Ketchum]

You're Going to hear a lot of ads, so.

[Brodie]

Oh, the ad.

[Ketchum]

You're in trouble. So you already heard something, to be honest.

[Brodie]

You heard us talk about better help. Go sign up for better help.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

And there were some ads after that. Better help. You know there was.

[Ketchum]

You know that.

[Brodie]

And there's more coming.

[Ketchum]

So head on over to Patreon, avoid the ads, get rid of the ads, head on over to Patreon. Ad free episodes, and you get early access to Episodes. Plus. I heard a rumor that there is a completely different podcast available on patreon with over 40 episodes that is non Therapy Talk. And it's. I hear it's better than this one.

[Brodie]

It is. Yeah. Sometimes.

[Ketchum]

Sometimes same same.

[Brodie]

Sometimes same same.

[Ketchum]

Sometimes same show.

[Brodie]

But if you. If you like the podcast, Patreon's a great way to support the show, you know.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

There's also merch discounts available over there. And we go live. So head on over to Patreon. There's different tiers set up because we have other podcasts on a lot of.

[Brodie]

Content over there if you just need a little bit more. But if you just want to get rid of ads, go to Patreon.

[Ketchum]

Yeah, head on over there. Also, you can write us, you can send us mail. You can do all that stuff. The information is in the bio. Is that what it's called?

[Brodie]

Description?

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Whatever it is down there, it's down there. You know where to find it. This isn't your first podcast.

[Brodie]

It might be.

[Kara]

It might be.

[Ketchum]

If it is, it's in the information. You can write us, you can send us mail. You can even send us a text message or a voicemail mail. And sometimes we even read or play them on air and respond to them.

[Brodie]

Sometimes. A lot of times you're asking for advice, and we can't do that.

[Ketchum]

We can't do that. And you know that.

[Brodie]

But also, we have merch available if you. If Patreon's just not your speed and you still want to support the podcast. We have merch secondhand therapypod.com.

[Ketchum]

We finally have. Do you want to tell them? Should I tell them? I don't care. We finally have the.

[Brodie]

Got so tired of people asking.

[Ketchum]

So many people are wanting.

[Brodie]

Jesus Christ. That's not what. That's not what the phone number's for.

[Ketchum]

Now Papa was a Mama. We have those T shirts finally available.

[Brodie]

We also did daddy issues. So we have tell Mama was a papa.

[Ketchum]

That's true.

[Brodie]

Because we know fathers ain't saints.

[Ketchum]

Okay, that's true.

[Brodie]

We got that. We got some tie Dyed teas for the summer. Vasectomy Farms is still available. A portion of that is going to women's reproductive resources. So if you're looking for a way to support the podcast, Merch is a great way to do that. And you can support some other stuff because, like I said, we donate some of the money. Secondhand therapy pod.com Also, it's about to.

[Ketchum]

Be hoodie season, and I would argue that we have the most comfortable hoodies in the game.

[Brodie]

We have the best hoodies.

[Ketchum]

We have the best hoodie. So if you're looking for a comfy hoodie, it's coming up on you. Fall is coming up on you.

[Brodie]

The, the emotional support hoodies, the lightweight summer versions we're probably gonna access at the end of the month.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Get them now if you want a.

[Brodie]

Summer hoodie or if you like a lightweight hoodie for around the house. They're only going to be available a couple more weeks, so.

[Ketchum]

All right, guys, that's it. Like, share, subscribe, do all that fun stuff and enjoy the episode.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Enjoy the ads.

[Kara]

Bye.

[Brodie]

Go to Patreon.

[Kara]

Bye.

[Brodie]

Okay, goodbye.

[Kara]

Bye.

[Brodie]

Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Ketchum]

And welcome back secondhand therapy. And we know that.

[Sponsor Voice]

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[Brodie]

What we arrived at is that sometimes radical acceptance, which we've discussed with relatives, people in your life, that kind of thing. Yeah, sometimes it doesn't really matter because you need to decide if you desire a relationship with a person and.

[Kara]

If.

[Brodie]

You'Re honest with yourself and you don't desire or need a connection with that person, then there's really no need to accept them or radically accept them or anything. Because if the relationship doesn't serve you, why do you need to put energy or effort toward it?

[Ketchum]

How does one go about asking for a friend? How does one Go about deciding if a relationship is worth it or not and if it's serving.

[Brodie]

I believe that would be an individual experience.

[Kara]

Cool, cool, cool.

[Ketchum]

Yeah, I'll let my friend know.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I don't know, man. Relationships and connections are hard. And the one I was talking about mostly in therapy this week, and to be honest, I don't remember how we got there, but we were talking about my dad recently. You know, I. In the last couple episodes, I've been talking about working on radically accepting my mom. And she and I don't have a contentious relationship. There's no animosity, there's no ruptures. I just have a desire for it to have more depth, more emotional connection and just accepting that that's probably not going to happen.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

And just being, being accepting of who she is and also possibly more importantly, who she isn't. We were talking about that with regards to my dad this past week, and I still, I, I, you know, I've talked about on here before of I don't know if I want to try to have a relationship with him or, you know, when he dies, am I going to be filled with regret of not trying and all that. And I don't know. I still don't know if I really need a connection with him because the connection that it would be, I don't know if it's. That's serving because accepting him for who. Accepting him for who he's not would be easier than accepting him for who he is, I think.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

That's what I was gonna ask is what. What are you looking for in that relationship?

[Brodie]

That's thing. I don't know if I'm looking for a relationship with him.

[Ketchum]

I mean, just in a father figure in general. I don't like. What are the things that would serve you for a father figure?

[Brodie]

I don't know. I never had one.

[Kara]

You know, I don't know.

[Brodie]

Yeah, I don't know. I've. I've never looked for a father figure. I've never looked for someone to fill that void.

[Ketchum]

You've never wished or wanted things to be different in that relationship and know, like in what ways?

[Brodie]

No, I don't know what that looks like. I don't know what it's like to have a present father. I don't know what it's like to have a father who is not a narcissist. I don't know what it's like to have a father who. I don't feel like an old obligation.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I don't know what any of that looks or feels like. So at this point in my life, what I would want from a hypothetical father figure? I, I don't know. Kindness, I guess would be a good start.

[Ketchum]

What about past you?

[Brodie]

Well, past me idolized my dad.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I mean narcissists are great at being likable. I mean my dad was always funny. You know, we're going to baseball games. Like there's, there was nothing there. But when I was young, those activities and the laughs and like everybody liking my dad and being drawn to him.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Like. Yeah, he just looks like the greatest. So when I was young, I just had basically a 40 year old buddy who was really good at getting me to like him.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brodie]

As I got older and I understood myself and I understood people and treatment of people, you know, the, the veil came down. So I don't, I think young me, the desire was just more present I think because it was idealized.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

You know when you're, when you see your dad a weekend a month or every other month, like you, you get highlight reel.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

So didn't really have a scope of what that reality was. Does that make sense?

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I was trying to see if.

[Kara]

Were.

[Ketchum]

There any male figures in your life that you kind of like.

[Brodie]

My grandfathers. But my, my grandfather that I was closest with, he passed away when I was 12. And then my other grandfather, they. They moved away to Georgia.

[Kara]

I think.

[Brodie]

A couple years after that. And then they died when I was in. He died when I was in high school. So not really. Was never really close with uncles.

[Ketchum]

Friends, dads or anything.

[Brodie]

No, not close with them. My best friend was raised by a single mom.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

So yeah, my father figure was my mom.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

You know, I just.

[Ketchum]

Same. I still don't understand my grandma.

[Brodie]

I know, but you had a stepdad until you were 30.

[Ketchum]

Yeah, Wayne came in the picture. I was 15 until 15 I didn't happen. I think we had like a flip happen. I think your dad was present or at least around every other weekend and like again like baseball games and being charming and like all these things when you were young?

[Brodie]

Well, no, he was a phone dad up until middle school because he lived out of state and then in middle school he moved into. To Phoenix, but I was in Tucson.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

So we would see him some weekends.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Yeah. That didn't start till I was 12 or 13. Before that he was a phone dad and a Christmas dad.

[Ketchum]

Okay.

[Brodie]

Never had a father or figure in the house ever.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Mine was only very young like. And I only know that because of Baby pictures and things like that. Like, dad was around, like, building little things around the little clubhouse things and putting toys together and all that stuff. When I'm like 1 and 2 years old.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

And you were 10 when he died.

[Ketchum]

12. And then he just disappeared for a while. There's a big gap there from like probably four to ten and a half. Eleven. Somewhere around there. There's a big gap there.

[Kara]

Okay.

[Brodie]

Where was he?

[Ketchum]

I don't know.

[Kara]

Okay.

[Brodie]

That'S fine.

[Ketchum]

That's a great question. Where was that dude? I don't know.

[Brodie]

Never asked you. Talk about it if you don't want.

[Ketchum]

There's a chunk of it where he's in prison at some point.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I don't know when.

[Brodie]

That was my guess.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I was like, oh, for sure.

[Ketchum]

Locked up. But yeah.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Because there is that moment. I think I've talked about it on here before, where we were coming home from Thanksgiving one time my mother and I were driving home and it was after Wayne and passed and we were coming over my aunt's house and it's like an hour drive and my casually. She points out the window and goes, well, that's the prison your dad was in. Hey. What?

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I'm 30. I've never heard this story.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Yeah. Your mom shielded you from a lot.

[Ketchum]

Oh, God.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

So I imagine.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Somewhere in there.

[Brodie]

I still. It's interesting that the. I don't have a better phrase. But to call it. The story that you have.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Is well, your dad died when you were 12 and then Wayne came around. You were 15.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

But the story is you didn't have a father figure growing up. That's interesting.

[Ketchum]

Well, he just wasn't when he came back around.

[Kara]

Dad. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Because there's a big gap there. He came back around like at ten and a half or eleven because we. We bought the house next to my grandmother. And so he was trying. Saying he was going to get sober and like all those things.

[Brodie]

And so do you remember that?

[Ketchum]

I remember mom telling me that. And this was like a fresh start, you know, this house.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

For them. Spoiler alert. Did not happen.

[Kara]

Usually doesn't.

[Ketchum]

Yeah, I remember. I remember one night he. Mom and I were watching. Are you afraid of the dark?

[Brodie]

Classic.

[Ketchum]

A classic.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

And we watched that and my dad came home drunk and said that he gave his keys to some guy at the bar and that we need to go pick up his car. It was downtown. And so we went and got the car and it was just at some crack house in downtown at like 11:00 clock at night, I'm in the back seat, Mom's driving, takes dad, he walks up to this crack house and gets his keys and that was that. So that was when he was trying to get sober at the new house. And then he. We were only there six or seven months and then he passed. But he wasn't like being a dad, like at home, you know? Yeah, he was out and about.

[Brodie]

So I'm just saying it's interesting.

[Ketchum]

Yeah. So I think that counts as, like, not being around to justify it or prove it.

[Brodie]

I'm just. It's just interesting.

[Ketchum]

Well, what's interesting then?

[Brodie]

Just that you say that you, like, didn't have a father growing up, but like you pretty consistently had a father figure in your life. Whether or not they were ideal or present or like that is still a. Your father. It's a father figure and that you don't know any better. At 10.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

And then, you know, Wayne comes around at 15. Those are pretty formative years, your late teens.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

It's pretty good to have even a good father figure around.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Wayne came in and changed everything. But it was, I feel like it was like right at that time when you're. You don't want anything to do with your parents, you know what I mean?

[Kara]

So.

[Ketchum]

I feel like he got there at the right time for my mother and at the wrong time for me. I think that timing was just like a little off.

[Brodie]

When did you and him get close?

[Ketchum]

I think after high school.

[Brodie]

She had A good, what, 10, 12 years?

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

That's great.

[Kara]

Yeah, that's nice. Yeah.

[Sponsor Voice]

If you're navigating anxiety, depression, relationship challenges, postpartum struggles, or something else, you deserve care that meets you where you are. Growtherapy is designed to help you find a therapist who fits your needs and supports the way you want to feel. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the US offering both virtual and in person sessions. You can search by insurance provider, specialty treatment methods, and more to find a therapist who works for you. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com acast today to get started. That's growtherapy.com acast growtherapy.com acast availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

[Ketchum]

So you don't. So looking at your situation after viewing mine, you don't view it in the same way of saying that, like, even though your situation wasn't ideal as well. And he was kind of like around but wasn't. That's not a father figure in your life for your childhood.

[Brodie]

No, I mean it was literally a phone call for five minutes.

[Ketchum]

Okay.

[Brodie]

Like just checking in. Hey, love you.

[Ketchum]

Miss you.

[Brodie]

Thinking about you. And then we'd see him at Christmas.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

So I have like I said, zero memories of him in the house. I think they got divorced when I was two.

[Ketchum]

Okay.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Like I said, when I do have the memory of having a father figure, it would have been closer to middle school when we would see him more frequently when he moved to Phoenix.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

And that is just highlight reel. So it's ideal every time.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

He had a pool, it was fun. You know, Diamondbacks games like. And then, you know, you get older, you learn Dimebags Tickets are $7 and it's not that special. It's a thing to take your kid to when you have nothing to say.

[Ketchum]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I'm very, very surprised here. You don't see Wayne as a father figure. Even if you guys got close in your.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

But I don't know, it's always tricky. Like I don't know. Wayne wanted to be my father so bad.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

And even now I won't let him, you know?

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

That's interesting. Even you guys were like your twenties. To have a father. That sounds dope. Especially like a guy you love and respect.

[Kara]

Yeah, he was great.

[Ketchum]

He was incredible.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

But yeah, I just think there's that ache, you know, of like wanting your dad. Like there's just that. I don't know what that is, but I don't know if you feel that at all. But like, no, there's not like a.

[Brodie]

I don't have a problem idealizing life though.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brodie]

I think I'd be very content with a. A good stepdad.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brodie]

I did ask my therapist. Well, it was more. I stated a belief first that when there is a rupture between a parent and a child, I've always had the idea and the belief that it's the parents responsibility to repair it. And I don't know why that is.

[Ketchum]

Do you feel like it's because they are older and wiser or.

[Brodie]

I don't think it's like you're the parent.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Like that goes with the job with your kid.

[Kara]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brodie]

It's not my job. It's your job. You're the parent. And I don't have a good reason, but. Feels accurate. Seems accurate. Think it's accurate. Feels accurate.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

What do you think?

[Ketchum]

Man, that's tricky. I feel like, well, what would you do if. Well, I guess we know you're doing it now. I was gonna say, what would you do if there was no action in that way? You just. You just say, that's it. I don't know.

[Brodie]

Like I said, I'm trying to figure out if I want, need, or desire a connection there.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

So it's hard for me to speak to my specific circumstance because I'm navigating it, but I. I think if I had a child and there was a falling out or a rupture or a rift or whatever it may be.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

If I had done something to hurt my child and it caused a rift, I would do my best to patch it up.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

And if my child did something that hurt me, that caused a rift.

[Kara]

I.

[Brodie]

Think I would do my best to patch that up and let my kid know. Hey, I was really hurt by what you did, but I love you so much. And no matter what. And I want to fix this as soon as you're ready to.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

It's my kid, dude.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

That.

[Brodie]

So I don't get it. I don't get it.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Man. That's tricky for me because I'm such a fixer and people pleaser and all that stuff. Like, I would probably cave and I'd be codependent.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I would cave and be like, we gotta fix it.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

But then there's also a side of me that's stubborn, and I'm like, ah. I don't know if I'd be like, well, you too, then. I don't know which part of me would win.

[Brodie]

For my history with you.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

It's usually both.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

It's usually to the person there's a rupture to Always open to. Anybody who asks about the rupture, it's. Oh, them too. Like, no, it's not up to me. Like, you'll play the tough guy for the reputation, but I think you're always hoping for a fix.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Ketchum]

I don't know if that's codependency or if that's grief.

[Brodie]

What?

[Ketchum]

Feeling, like, always open for a repair. Because I know that you.

[Brodie]

What'd you say again? Say it again.

[Ketchum]

Always open for a repair.

[Brodie]

No, you don't know if it's.

[Ketchum]

If it's codependency or if it's grief.

[Brodie]

We know.

[Ketchum]

Hey, man, I started losing people at 8.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

So, like, if anybody knows how short life is, oh, dog, it's me. So you're just Gonna let this person die with a grudge or like a thing between you? You know what I mean? Unless it's like, monumental. But, like, we get in a fight and we don't talk. And now 10 years go by and you're dead, and I have to just live on being like. That was stupid.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brodie]

Sometimes you have to live with regret.

[Ketchum]

Oh, hey, yeah. Know that.

[Brodie]

But, like, you have to be okay living with regret.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

You have to accept regret. You have to accept making a bad decision that you regret.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

You're okay with that?

[Brodie]

I mean, in general. Yeah. But in moments like, it sucks. It's a shitty feeling.

[Kara]

Yeah. But. Yeah.

[Brodie]

What are you going to do about it? You learn and hopefully do better next time. What else can you do?

[Ketchum]

So you're not always open. You're. You're. I know that you're not always open for repair.

[Kara]

No, Yeah.

[Brodie]

I think I'm always open to repair if it's a relationship that I desire to repair.

[Ketchum]

Right.

[Brodie]

But if somebody is like, wants to repair and they're like, hey, I feel bad about having. I, like, I'll be like, hey, we're all good. Wish you the best, man. Thanks for apologizing. Means a lot. I don't.

[Kara]

Yeah, fine.

[Brodie]

But, yeah, I don't need it. If I don't desire to have that person back in my life, then there's nothing to repair.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I think if it was that important, I would have attempted to repair it.

[Kara]

I think.

[Ketchum]

I think capacity is context that we might.

[Brodie]

Define capacity.

[Ketchum]

That's what I mean. So, like, when you say, let these people back in your life, like, what does that allowance look like for you? Like, if they're just a casual friend and it up and then they want to come back in your life, but it's just a casual person in your life anyways.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

But you're still gonna be like, thank you so much. Don't need it. Have a good life.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

If I don't miss the relationship or have a desire.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

To have it back in my life.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I don't.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

We've talked about. I don't acquire people. You acquire people.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

It's like money to you.

[Ketchum]

I like connecting with people I like.

[Brodie]

Okay.

[Ketchum]

It's not like money. I'm not Pokemon trying to collect them all.

[Brodie]

I think you are. I think you want as many people to call friends. You're like, Michael Scott. There's like, I got a million friends. You're like, oh, do they know anything about you? No, but we say hi to each Other, it's like, okay, yeah, I don't have that. I don't have the desire to, like, collect people in my life.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

That's not. I've never been like that. But I was also never raised to believe that if people like you, that means you're good.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

So.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

You know, being very deeply codependent probably has a bit of a difference.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

In the way you approach the number of relationships or connections.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Acceptance is.

[Brodie]

You always call it acceptance, and I don't know why you call it that.

[Ketchum]

That's what it is.

[Brodie]

How do you know they're accepting you?

[Ketchum]

I'm nice to them, they're nice to me.

[Brodie]

That means they accept who you are as a person.

[Ketchum]

That means that we've accepted the.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

That we're going to be friendly.

[Brodie]

Friendly.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

It's not always like, I'm talking about strangers too. Like, this is. This is what we get into about, like, laughing at the cashier's joke. Right. Like, it. It cost me nothing to do that. And I can be friendly. And that's an accepting way to live. Instead of, like, shutting this person out or not reacting or whatever. Like, it cost me nothing to smile or laugh along. And now maybe next time I see them or the next few times I see them in the store, maybe they say nothing to me. Maybe they do. Maybe you know what I mean? But at least there is. Like, I've opened myself up to kindness or a friendly manner, but I don't.

[Brodie]

I don't understand what you're even talking about.

[Ketchum]

That's acceptance. I think you think of this, Ketchum, is like this deep personal thing of like, they are accepting me on every level of who I am as a person. Yeah, like, no, I'm talking about. Acceptance is like an exchange of.

[Brodie]

Do you have a different word you could use for it? Maybe help me understand better.

[Kara]

I.

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[Ketchum]

Community.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Is that. I mean, it's in a different way.

[Brodie]

But I feel like you're in community when you're sitting in traffic just because you're surrounded by people.

[Ketchum]

No, but I'm not interacting with them. Interaction is.

[Brodie]

What if you're all looking around like, that's crazy. Right. Do you then feel like, oh, we're all in on it now?

[Ketchum]

Yeah, I feel like, yeah, we're in on it together. Like, this is a. A community of sorts. Like, this is. Oh, wow.

[Kara]

Okay.

[Brodie]

I don't have that.

[Ketchum]

Yeah, no, you're just like, oh, this is a moment and we don't know each other, so it's fleeting. So this doesn't matter.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I can also say that it's not.

[Brodie]

That it doesn't matter. It's just. It's not. I've said it a million times there. Not everything is special.

[Ketchum]

Right. I don't look at it as, like a special thing that's happening. I just look at it as, like. Yeah, I guess I look at it as like a nicety. Just like it's a nicety of life. Like. Like.

[Kara]

But.

[Brodie]

And what do you get from that?

[Ketchum]

I feel good talking to strangers.

[Brodie]

Because it means what.

[Ketchum]

In a way? Acceptance. So we are exchanging and having a moment. We're sharing a moment, no matter how brief it is or whatever it is. Like, that's nice, two humans sharing a moment. I like that. I like when that happens out in the wild.

[Brodie]

And then if after you leave, you're like, I forgot my thing, you turn around, they go, that guy wouldn't shut up. Then what?

[Ketchum]

Then it's. Then, I don't know. Hurt feelings, but funny. But ouchie.

[Kara]

Yeah. Okay.

[Ketchum]

And that's okay. You know what I mean?

[Kara]

It's okay.

[Brodie]

Ouchie's okay.

[Ketchum]

Ouchie's okay. You can't win them all. You know what I mean?

[Brodie]

Like, I don't think you believe that at all.

[Ketchum]

I do. Like, if you.

[Brodie]

Okay.

[Ketchum]

If I. If I'm talking, if I'm yapping to some cashier or they're yapping to me or whatever, like, I come away from it. Like, it didn't. It doesn't for me because I know that even if I turn to my friend and I was like, jesus Christ, that guy was talking a lot. Right. It doesn't mean I don't like that guy or that I hate him or the bad things that happen to him. I'm like, I'm just commenting on. It's like social commentary. And so, yeah, if they say that about me after I leave fair game. Was I yapping? Probably. So, like, okay, fair game. That's social commentary.

[Brodie]

So I guess my confusion is.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

So if you turn to your friend and go, man, that guy was about xyz, whatever.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

That's no longer you. That's no longer kindness.

[Ketchum]

That's still kindness.

[Brodie]

Oh, okie doke.

[Ketchum]

Because again, there's no malice behind it. It's not like I never want to talk to that guy again or fuck that guy. It's just like, it's social commentary. It's just like, that was crazy. Right?

[Brodie]

Right. But if. If you heard somebody say that about you, you said it'd be ouchie a little bit. But you saying it to somebody else about somebody else.

[Ketchum]

But I also said funny. I said funny and ouchy.

[Brodie]

Okay.

[Ketchum]

I'd be in the car, be like, I'd drive away, like, damn, was I talking a lot? Okay.

[Brodie]

I don't believe that.

[Kara]

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[Brodie]

What's going on with you?

[Ketchum]

Oh, buddy.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I don't know. I mean, I do know.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

You know, Going through it. Yeah, going through it. Been going through it. Been very emotional. Am very emotional.

[Brodie]

As Jack Nicholson in the Departed said, we all are. Act accordingly. How's your mother? Oh, she's on her way out. We all are. Act accordingly.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

There's a little trouble in paradise.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Paradise is never flawless.

[Ketchum]

It sure ain't.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I have been in long discussions with my partner about the distance and long distance relationships.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I was calling it. Let's start here. When I was visiting or when she would visit.

[Brodie]

You're doing that in the middle. Yeah, start here. We're already in it. Tarantino. Hey, let's start here. Chapter one.

[Ketchum]

Chapter one. When we were. When we would get together, it would be for an extended period of time. We would spend four or five days together, but then we would go weeks without seeing each other.

[Brodie]

Weeks being two to three.

[Ketchum]

Two to three weeks.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

There was a. There was a couple stints where like one time was like five and like another time was four or five. Something. There was a couple longers in there, but the majority of time is two, three weeks. Two to three weeks.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

And when that would happen. You and I have talked about this. Like, I would experience, like, these. It would put me in, like a depression after I got home or after she would leave after visiting, I would get in the rhythm of the relationship of being with her. And, you know, we're cooking together, we're working, we're sightseeing, we're. We're living. We're having life together for like four days. And then it just gets. It's just gone and it's back to this reality of loneliness for me. And my nervous system would just go crazy. And I remember, like, describing it.

[Kara]

Yes.

[Brodie]

Would it be. Do you think it would still be loneliness if you were just single or is it loneliness because you have the contrast of the companionship?

[Ketchum]

I think it's. It's loneliness because of the companionship, because of her. Like, I want to be with her and I got used to being with her. And so if I was single then, I mean, would I still be spending as much time with her? I mean, I think her is the key there. It doesn't matter if we're okay, committed relationship or not. Like, so it sounds.

[Brodie]

So it sounds like it's not as much loneliness as it is longing for your partner.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Okay.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

It's like this. My rhythm's all off, you know.

[Kara]

And.

[Ketchum]

So I was experiencing what I kept calling, like a yo yo effect.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Which eventually hurt it a lot. It came back around.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

Every two to three weeks.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I just. We were together and it keeps getting ripped away from me.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Having this yo yo effect.

[Ketchum]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

It's not being ripped away. It's okay.

[Ketchum]

And so eventually it came back around where she was, like, looking into it and she's like, did you come up with this idea of like, yo yo effect? I was like, yeah, I don't know what else to call it. And she's like, that's what it's called. She's like. And it happens a lot with long distance couples where the technical term is like emotional whiplash, which I didn't know was a thing.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

But yeah, yo yo. The effect is like the slang for emotional whiplash.

[Brodie]

Makes sense.

[Ketchum]

Makes perfect sense. But it happens a lot with anxiously attached people in long distance relationships especially. And a little. A little texture for the story. She is secure and avoidant.

[Brodie]

I was like. And I am, let's give that context.

[Ketchum]

Codependent and anxiously attached. And sometimes those worlds collide because she is very independent and has her own thing happening and. And a lot, you know, like, very busy socially and with her work and everything else. And not that I'm not. But with. I think I'm. With my codependency and anxious attachment. I'm just more used to, like, giving more of myself. To my partner. And I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm just saying that's what it is for me. I tend to.

[Brodie]

I'll say it's wrong.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

I'll say, don't give everything to your partner because then, yeah, there's nothing left for you unless they are there. Then you're putting all your worth into them. So I would say try not to do that, but go ahead. I won't say it's right or wrong. Just try not to.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

So, yeah, that's. That's what was happening for a while. And then it got to a point where I was being very outspoken about it and hey, that can't be fun for her. For her.

[Kara]

Yeah, I see. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

That can't be fun to listen to all the time.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

You know, unfucking real.

[Ketchum]

What? It can't.

[Brodie]

Yeah. It also can't be fun to feel like that. But who gives a shit about your feelings, you know?

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

And that's co. Dependence. Let's talk more about how your things affected her.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

This fucking guy. Go ahead. I'm sorry, I'm sorry to make light of it.

[Ketchum]

No, you're good. I. I don't. I'm still putting all that together. Like, I say things like that and don't even think about it. I don't make that connection of like, oh, how am I feeling?

[Brodie]

Hey, real quick. I know.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

You know? Yeah, that can't be fun for her. Well, true. However, there's another person in the relationship.

[Ketchum]

Yeah, sorry, go ahead.

[Kara]

Anyways, yeah.

[Ketchum]

So, yeah, it was wrecking my nervous system and I wasn't handling the long distance great and things ended and.

[Brodie]

Stay out of his dms. Yeah, please, he cannot have a relapse right now.

[Kara]

Oh, God.

[Ketchum]

It's just. It's Grief's twin brother. You know what I mean? Only this person's still alive and they're just.

[Brodie]

Yeah, it's Grief.

[Ketchum]

Not interested in talking to you.

[Brodie]

You know what I mean?

[Ketchum]

It's like.

[Brodie]

Well, that's also not true.

[Ketchum]

Well, you know when you go no contacts, the mutual. No contact, but still, like.

[Brodie]

Yeah, that doesn't mean she's not interested in talking to you. That means she's trying to move forward.

[Ketchum]

In a healthy way. Yes, yes, I know.

[Brodie]

You don't have to make it self deprecating, though.

[Kara]

That's all.

[Ketchum]

I'm just saying, like, she doesn't have.

[Brodie]

A desire to talk to you because you're a big piece of shit who would want to talk to you. I Know what you're saying? Fuck off.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Brodie]

Put your head up. Don't do that.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

So it's been rough.

[Brodie]

Question.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

What has your experience? Well, I'm going to give a little context.

[Ketchum]

Sure.

[Brodie]

This is. This was the healthiest relationship you've had.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

This was the healthiest breakup you've ever had.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Has that given you.

[Kara]

And.

[Brodie]

Has that given you a new perspective on grief? Because all your other relationships have ended the way most do.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Chaotically. It's been coming for a while. It blows up all that.

[Ketchum]

It's almost.

[Brodie]

Relationships end. You do grieve those in a way, because, I mean, you're usually grieving the ideal of what could have been.

[Ketchum]

Right.

[Brodie]

So most of your grief has been grieving the dead. Now that you are experiencing grieving a good thing that just simply wasn't a good fit. What has that been like for you in your experience of grief? Because I know you called it grief's twin brother.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

But it's grief.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

You're just grieving something different than you usually do. So I'm curious what that's like for you.

[Ketchum]

Oh, buddy. It. It's different because. Yeah, you're right. It didn't. It was. It ended on good terms and it was kind of out of nowhere. And, like, it wasn't that we went south or hated each other or any of that stuff. And so it catches you by surprise. So it does feel more like grief in that way, too. Of just like, sneaks up on you and you're like, what the. I think how it's different this time. It's harder because it doesn't feel like it's real or permanent. And usually when you're grieving, the things that you know are done because they're done.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

You've known they've been done for a few months or whatever, and you're like, what are we doing here?

[Kara]

Kind of thing. Yeah.

[Brodie]

And now you're like, we don't even hate each other.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

What the.

[Ketchum]

So, yeah, it's hard to grieve something that is still alive because those relationships are dead, the ones that go south. But this one was still very much alive. And so it's. It's a weird. Yeah, it's. It's also weird, too, because when those relationships end and you know they're going to end or you know they're on their way out, when it does finally happen, there is that finality to it, and you. It's almost like an exorcism. Right. But because this is still alive, or feels alive or whatever you want to say it. Like, then there's like, this haunting that happens where you're just kind of. There's like this lingering thing of like, they're still very much.

[Kara]

Around.

[Brodie]

Yeah, No, I read your threads.

[Ketchum]

Yeah.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

But that's how I describe it. Like, there is like. It's just like this lingering that I have not experienced in.

[Kara]

In death.

[Ketchum]

And death for sure.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

But not with past relationships.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Brodie]

Is it odd how similar it is to grieving death?

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

I feel like there's. There's like, a different ache. The aid. Death is like, I'll never interact with this person ever again. And with this. The ache is like, there. There is a possibility it's just not happening. And I think that is. Man, that's not as bad, but it's up there because there's just like this. Like, we could. We could be talking, but we're not.

[Sponsor Voice]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

And with death, you're just like, oh, no. There is no way There. You cannot talk to this person, like, ever again. You'll never see them. You'll never talk to them.

[Kara]

Yeah.

[Ketchum]

And breakups, you're like, we could. Yeah, but we're not going to.

[Kara]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ketchum]

It feels like you're choosing grief.

[Kara]

Not.

[Ketchum]

Not experiencing it. You know, you're just choosing it. Choosing to have it.

[Brodie]

What's the other choice? Being in a relationship that doesn't meet your needs or. That's not a f. And we know that.