Control, Boundaries, and My Mom | #094

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy | Episode #094

Title: Control, Boundaries, and My Mom
Release Date: August 11, 2025
Hosts: Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone
Podcast By: PonyBear Studios

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Episode Overview

In this candid and humorous episode of Secondhand Therapy, Louie and Michael dive deep into the complicated terrain of family relationships—specifically, the struggle to accept a parent for who they are. They wrestle with themes of control, boundaries, unmet emotional needs, communication friction between friends, and what “support” really feels like for different people. True to the show's spirit, both hosts are honest about where they've grown, where they’re stuck, and how their interactions mirror childhood patterns. Along the way, they navigate personal anecdotes, challenge each other's communication styles, and add plenty of laughs to break up the heaviness.

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Key Topics & Discussion Highlights

1. Letting Go of Control with Family (06:31–10:33)

• Louie shares a breakthrough:

  “I think the path forward with my relationship with my mother is to accept her for who she is and see what comes of it.” (06:36)

• Hard acceptance:
  Louie explains he's letting go of the wish for his mom to change or have “some sort of awakening,” and resigns himself to a relationship that may stay shallow—because hoping for more only leads to disappointment and conflict.
• The realization of control:

  “If I am going to have a better relationship with my mom, the only thing I can control in our relationship are my actions.” (10:04)

• Wrestling with ongoing desires:
  Louie admits, “I still have a desire for that [deeper connection]. You don’t always get what you want...” (07:48)

2. Navigating “Ruptures” and Managing Expectations (12:08–14:51)

• Evaluating effort vs. outcome:
  Louie discusses balancing his desire for depth with the risk of disruptiveness (“rupture”) during limited family visits:

  “If I think and feel that exploring depth might cause a rupture, then I will manage my needs and my desires.” (13:33)

• Recurring defensive patterns:
  Attempts at depth often end with:

  “Well, I'm sorry I was the worst mother of all time.” (14:08)
  Louie recognizes this defensiveness shuts conversations down and keeps the relationship surface-level.

3. Emotional Needs in Adult Family Relationships (14:51–18:26)

• Questioning what he gets from his mom:
  Louie admits he’s never really articulated what he needs from his mother, post-childhood.
• Michael’s story of loss:
  Michael shares the deep comfort he felt getting a rare call from his dying grandmother, expressing how adult needs often revolve around a sense of “emotional support” and having someone “who’s got your back,” regardless of practical help.

  “There’s nobody left that will ever give me that... There's nobody left that will ever give me that, of just being like, ‘hey, I gotcha.’” (17:11)

• Contrasting attachments:
  Louie shares he doesn’t differentiate much when friends reach out to support him vs. a parent doing the same, attributing it to having learned to be self-reliant ("lone wolf" mentality).

4. Support: Action vs. Emotion (20:43–26:52)

• Louie's preference:

  “What's more valuable? Support—actionable or emotional?... Actionable.” (22:45)
  He connects this to his “acts of service” love language and downplays the impact of words or reassurance.

• Ephemeral feelings:

  “Emotional support, those emotions are all so fleeting... actionable things that could actually change the circumstance is more valuable for me.” (24:11)

• Michael’s processing style:
  Michael notes he processes verbally and highly values emotional, spoken reassurance, highlighting their different needs from loved ones.

5. Impact of Childhood Dynamics & Emotional Walls (27:13–32:34)

• Neglect, logic, and brick-by-brick defenses:
  Michael probes whether Louie's emotional “walls” come from neglect or self-reliant logic. Louie says both:

  “Never learned how to rely on other people... It was shown to me all throughout my life. Life keeps going, so make sure you keep up.” (29:54)

• Therapeutic validation vs. parent’s validation:
  Michael wonders if a parent’s admission of fault would help tear down these walls. Louie’s stance:

  “I think you can do a lot of that in therapy... I’m just trying to let go of the fact that I don’t need her to be like, ‘Yeah, that brick’s been in the way…I put it there because I thought that’s what you needed.’” (31:32)

6. Communication Styles & Conflict (33:55–43:48)

• Feedback from therapy:
  Louie shares therapist’s observations:

  “…you must be impossible to argue with…you’re so quick and you have access to so many words and you know what you’re saying so quickly…so many people get overwhelmed…” (33:41)

• Michael’s frustration:
  Michael feels Louie’s literal interpretations/"corrections" during conversation interrupt the natural “dance” of back-and-forth.

  “There’s a rhythm to conversation, and to be interrupted within that rhythm throws my dance off.” (44:37)

• Spiraling meta-argument:
  They dissect in real time why Michael feels antagonized when Louie answers exactly as asked—even when it’s not in the “spirit” of the question (“How’d it make you feel?” / “It didn’t make me feel anything.”), leading to a comic but honest deadlock.

7. The Meaning of “Winning” in Arguments (54:40–56:23)

• What does “winning” a conversation mean?:
  Michael accuses Louie of always trying to “win.” Louie seems confounded—“I didn’t know we were arguing. I literally thought I was answering your question.” (55:30)
• Podcast performance:
  They acknowledge there’s an extra “layer” when recording for the show:

  “There is a layer that we are in the podcast…So me saying, ‘It didn’t make me feel anything’—we’re on the podcast.” (55:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On acceptance of a parent:

  “I’m going to do my best to accept who they all are and the relationships I have with them and try to make the best of it.” (11:55)

• On acts versus words:

  “Words of affirmation don’t really do much for me.” (23:03)
  “If I was going through heartbreak and someone could either call me up and say…or they could bring a pizza over to my house…I’ll take the pizza and the hang all day.” (26:27)

• Comic meta-argument on language:

  Michael: “How’d that make you feel?”
  Louie: “It didn’t make me feel anything.”
  Michael: “So you don’t see how that can be antagonizing?”
  (40:04–40:10)

• Therapist observation about Louie:

  “My therapist said… ‘You must be impossible to argue with…you’re so quick and you have access to so many words’...that was an interesting observation from her.” (33:41)

• Michael, defending the value of emotional support:

  “Even though I know logically, my mother calling me or grandmother calling me and being like, ‘Hey, you’re okay’…They don’t know, I don’t know, nobody knows…It’s nice to feel like this person, like, has your back.” (15:21-17:11)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Louie’s “mom decision” & acceptance (06:31–10:33)
• Navigating unmet desires, risks of “rupture” (12:08–14:51)
• What do you need from your mom as an adult? (14:51–18:26)
• Support: Action vs. emotion (20:43–26:52)
• Walls built from neglect and logic (27:13–32:34)
• Louie’s therapist: impossible to argue with (33:41–33:55)
• Meta-argument on language and “the dance” of conversation (40:04–47:10)
• Winning arguments & podcast layers (54:40–56:23)

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Tone & Takeaway

Raw, vulnerable, and often hilarious, the episode showcases both hosts wrestling with the flawed realness of their familial and friendship dynamics. Louie models tough acceptance—choosing boundaries over fruitless hope—while Michael highlights the enduring ache for comfort and validation that persists into adulthood. Their banter, which flips between playful bickering and genuine emotional self-reflection, offers listeners practical wisdom: growth is messy, and sometimes our best option is to own our part, loosen the grip of control, and let people (even parents) be who they are.

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For deeper discussion and bonus content, the hosts remind listeners to check out their Patreon—where “the ads end and the oversharing continues.”

Transcript

[A]

Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And, you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use Better Help recently? Yes, I have.

[C]

I just signed up.

[A]

How'd it go?

[C]

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch, like, there's like, two or three pages of people that I got to choose from, and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago.

[A]

Nice. Have you used their journal feature?

[C]

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.

[A]

Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know, you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just. It's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better Help's a good option, and they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys. If you're listening and you want to start with Better help, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Get in therapy. You know, it's great.

[C]

Check it out. So I think that is your end.

[A]

Goal, is to win the conversation.

[C]

Yes. Okay.

[A]

All right.

[C]

I think anybody arguing? That's.

[A]

I didn't know we were arguing. And, like, I literally thought I was answering your question.

[C]

Welcome back to Second Hand Therapy. Want to remind you that we are not therapists. We're not licensed professionals, and this is not a substitute for professional advice. Is that close? No, it's not a bit. This is how I retain this information. That's not a bit.

[A]

This is not a substitute for therapy.

[C]

For therapy.

[A]

This is not professional advice in any way.

[C]

That's what I said. I feel like. Is that not what.

[A]

Oh, well. Get out of your goddamn feelings and tell me what you think. Just.

[C]

Well, I think I said what you said.

[A]

You didn't. Would it help if I wrote it down for you?

[C]

No. God, I don't know. Maybe you'd have to try to read it.

[B]

Well, yeah.

[C]

That involves reading then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Whole lot of reading. Couple sentences.

[C]

Anyways, thanks for joining us. Thanks for listening. If you're on. Wherever you're listening to this, I'm sure you can like subscribe, share it with a friend. I'm sure that's how the technology works.

[A]

Leave a 5 star review and if it's anything less than 5 stars, forget about it, bro. Oh my God. I'm slapping you to sleep on site.

[C]

There's going to be ads. I'm going to warn you, there's going to be a lot of ads here.

[A]

There might not be, but there will be soon. I promise you that. We're getting to the bottom of this.

[C]

We're trying to figure it out still. There might be ads, there might not. Anyways, you know where there are no ads? Over on Patreon.

[A]

Patreon.

[C]

Head on over to Patreon. Did I say it right?

[A]

No, Patreon.

[C]

Actually that is right.

[A]

Patreon.com it's/secondhand therapy Colombian buddy. That's Spanish and you know Spanish. They have the Th? L Patreon El Patrion Secondhand therapy pod.

[C]

Head on over there. Ad free episodes, early access episodes and guess what? We have two shows that are coming out brand new. We have individual shows. His just aired is called and we know that there is an episode out right now. It is a problem. We are definitely getting canceled.

[A]

Big problem.

[C]

Please don't listen to it. Anyways, it's streaming now on all the platforms but you could have early access to that.

[A]

He left me in a room by myself with a microphone and a laptop.

[C]

Bad idea. Bad idea. Anyways, you guys want to see a.

[A]

Bleach butthole to YouTube? It's on there.

[C]

Oh buddy.

[A]

Did we censor it?

[B]

No.

[C]

Well, I don't know. It's on Patreon. You can get early access to it. I also have a show coming out called Happy not funny. More about that when it gets closer. And then we also come together and we have a another podcast together called the other show and there are over 40 episodes waiting for you to by.

[A]

Far my favorite show that we do.

[C]

Hate it, love it feel certain way about it. We don't know. We're not here to tell you how to feel but they're there over 40 episodes streaming on Patreon right now waiting for you.com/secondhand therapy. P Head on over to Patreon. Thank you for being here. Like share, subscribe, share with a friend.

[A]

Just like you would with your wife if you were Hulk Hogan. That was on my other podcast.

[C]

I. I gotta go.

[A]

I, you know. Did you. Did you what? Did you see the Hulk Hogan part? Unfortunately he got filmed banging his best friend's wife. Yeah, there's a twist in that story.

[C]

Do you remember the DJ's name? You said it 19 times on there.

[A]

I think it was Bubba the Love Sponge Clam. If I remember right, that is correct. DJ Bubba the Love Sponge Clam.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hulk Hogan banged his wife. Go, get out of here.

[C]

Let's get okay onto the episode. Head on over to Patreon. We'll see you there. Goodbye.

[A]

Serious, if you want to hear about Hulk Hogan's thing, it's my podcast. It's called. And we know that it's anywhere you get podcasts. Gracias, hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back.

[C]

Secondhand therapy.

[A]

And we know that. I think I've made a decision.

[C]

So many. So many things I could say right now, but I'm gonna be nice and say, well, what is it? What's your decision?

[A]

I want to hear the. Go ahead. How could you make this shitty. I think I've made a decision and you decided to be an. What was it? What was it? What was it? Go on, what was it?

[C]

Go on.

[A]

What were you gonna say? I don't understand. I think I made a decision, is what I'm saying.

[C]

And that decision is.

[A]

Well, I think the path forward with my relationship with my mother is to accept her for who she is and see what comes of it. Wow. Yep. Wow. Yeah. What, you think I was gonna say something about cookies?

[B]

No. Okay.

[A]

Wow. Yeah, that happened.

[C]

So what does that look like?

[A]

I quit. I let go of the expectations of her having, I don't know, some sort of awakening or thirst for depth or any understanding or. Yeah, anything like that. And I just.

[C]

You think you're gonna be okay with that?

[A]

I think it'll be hard sometimes.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because it seems like you. You were really searching for some kind of deeper connection or at least some, like, better understanding.

[A]

Yeah. I still have a desire for that. You don't always get what you want, so why is that a dick thing to say?

[C]

You said it was such confidence of, like, just. I don't know, it just came off like this acceptance of the hard thing.

[A]

That makes me a dick.

[C]

Just the way it came out, you were like, I'm doing the hard thing. And it's like, okay, but is it going to serve you in the way you think it's going to serve you?

[A]

Well, that begs the question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do I want it to serve me?

[B]

Right.

[A]

I just want to have a better relationship with my mom. And I think there's a few paths. If I want it to be different. I have to ask her to be different. What does that do? She's either gotta say she will and then not, or say she won't and think that she's caused a rift between us all for a process that on her own individual journey or life or whatever you want to call it, is years long.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Does that serve me well? I don't know. Yeah, I just. I think. Yeah, I. I think we just. I. I'm gonna speak for myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think I need to just be more accepting of who people are and do what I think is best in those relationships. And I think if I am going to have a better relationship with my mom, the only thing I can control in our relationship are my actions.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So I gotta let go of wishing she was different or wishing she was more sensitive or more reflective or more accountable or whatever it might be and just accept for who she is and understand that our relationship is gonna be more shallow than I wish it was.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Let's start here. How did you come to this conclusion?

[A]

Self reflection or reflection in general? Self reflection a lot too. One thing that you and I, one trait that you and I share is a struggle of letting go of control.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah. I mean, if I really look at it honestly, that's what I'm trying to do with my mom. I'm trying to control how she lives her life or how she reflects on herself. That's all I'm trying to do. The reason is because I want us to have a better relationship. But there's also the much bigger picture of I'm not the only relationship in my mom's life. So asking her to change for me, what does that do to her relationship with her partner, her relationship with my sister, her relationship with her mother, her relationship with her granddaughter, my niece. You know, I think it would make them all better, but it would also require all of those people to become more reflective and more open to change. And I. I can't be responsible for my whole family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So I just. I'm gonna do my best to accept who they all are and the relationships that I have with them and try to make the best of it.

[C]

Do you think this will affect your desire? Because I know you don't want to, like, change her necessarily and her need for, like, depth and change and all these things like you're saying. But on your actions, are you still going to be hungry for discovery with her?

[B]

Yeah, probably.

[C]

So that's still moving forward. You're still going to try and like, just Understand, learn more about her and.

[A]

When it's fitting. But also, that's my desire. I've had desires through my whole life that I don't get fulfilled.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Part of life. I also would love to be able to eat cookies without eating 50 of them, but that doesn't work for me. So, yeah, I will have that desire in moments where it seems fitting and I can explore more depth. I will if I feel confident that it won't cause any sort of rupture. And I mean, a rupture in our relationship is going to be hard, but like a rupture in a moment. Like a rupture in a moment when, you know, I only see my family for a weekend at a time or, you know, five, six days. Like, a rupture can really affect that entire visit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, if I. I think. If I think and feel that exploring depth might cause a rupture, then I will manage my needs and my desires. And.

[C]

Yeah, what does a rupture look like.

[A]

When it happens with my mom, typically me, it'll be for me, searching for depth or searching for accountability for something in my childhood or something like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, I've talked about on here before, just defensiveness. Well, I'm sorry is the worst mother of all time. Like, yeah, you know, we could actually just talk about this if you want. She doesn't want to. I want to. She doesn't want to. So I just need to accept that she doesn't want to have those conversations as much as I do want to. And it sucks a bummer. But yeah, I think if I just let go of all that and wishing she was different, we would have just a better relationship. I would enjoy my time and my conversations with her more.

[C]

Are your other needs getting met with her?

[A]

That's interesting question. I've never. I don't know that I've thought about what my needs are from my mother as an adult. I don't know that I have an answer for you. What were your needs from your mom when, as an adult. God, like, what do those look like?

[C]

I mean, I think what it boils down to is just like, emotional support, I would say. I think it goes back to, like, what I shared a couple episodes ago when, like, even. Even if you know this person can't, like, actually physically help you, it's nice to feel like this person, like, has your back. Like when I was talking about, like, my grandma's in a nursing home. But I know that, like, she has me, you know, in those moments, even though I know my grandma can't physically or financially or any of those things, like, help me out. What she did do. This happened during COVID and it broke my heart. Was like I was having a tough time, and I was venting to my aunt about it on the phone, and I ended up crying and talking about how depressed I was. And my grandmother, on damn near life support, calls me the next day out of nowhere, which she never did because, you know, we can't bother Michael. But she called me and she said, hey, bud, I heard you're having a hard time, and I just wanted to call in and check on you. This woman who is actively dying took time to reach out to me, who's having not a great time, but I'm, like, healthy and. And, you know, all these things that she's not. And that's what I mean by, like, that support is gone. There's nobody left that will ever give me that of just being like, hey, I gotcha.

[A]

There's no one that will call and check on you.

[C]

It's not the same. It's not family. You know what I mean?

[A]

It's not that no one will do that. It's that the people that you desire.

[C]

To do that aren't here anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It just doesn't feel the same.

[A]

I know you love those feelings.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Those matter in those moments. Is it. Well, maybe not for you, because the relationship isn't the same for you with your mother, but, like, is there a difference between me calling you and your mother calling you in a time of need?

[A]

Not particularly.

[C]

Really? That's crazy. Is there a difference in your life? Is there somebody? It's so weird because you are such a, like, lone wolf attitude, like, because you've had to just like, yeah, yeah. Rely on yourself for most of your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That, like, it's like, hey, who. Who would call to help? And you're like, nobody.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Is there somebody that would, like, you think of that would, like, give you that.

[A]

Give me the feeling of, like, oh, it's gonna be okay.

[B]

Yeah. No.

[C]

1, that breaks my heart. And two, is there really nobody or have you just not allowed anybody in?

[A]

I would like to say there's really nobody, but you're the second one makes more sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I never learned how to rely on other people or count on other people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So if I'm going through something and you call me up, you're like, hey, it's gonna be okay. Yeah, I know. Probably.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That doesn't change what's happening.

[C]

Logic, emotion.

[A]

Yeah. I don't feel any better about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

For me, even though if I lie, I mean, you know, obviously I know logically, my mother calling me or my grandmother calling me and being like, hey, you're okay. They don't know. I don't know. Nobody knows.

[A]

So what feeling do you get from it?

[C]

Support.

[A]

Is that a feeling?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You can feel supported.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

You don't think support is a feeling?

[A]

I think supports an action.

[C]

I think it's both.

[A]

Okay. I think if someone was supporting me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe I would feel support. My instinct is to say I would feel comforted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, I can see support being a feeling.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I'll co sign that one.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Is there people in your life you feel supported by?

[B]

Yes. Yeah. So.

[C]

If you're going through it logically, you think there's nobody that could help me.

[A]

I mean, there are. I'm sure there are people that could help, but like, yeah, I have to ask for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I don't know. I'm used to.

[C]

Is the thought.

[A]

No.

[C]

Yes, the thought, like, what are they gonna do?

[A]

No, I think the thought is there. I think my mom would do whatever she could if I asked her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do think. I do believe that. But I mean, what she asked me was if she called and said everything's going to be okay. Does that help? Not really. But I do think if I truly needed some sort of action, I could call her and she would do it without hesitation. Other people in my life, there's. There's a couple that I think I could call and if I was like, hey, I really need some help, that they would. But I also know there are people in my life that wouldn't even though I would for them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, that's something that I have just had to accept about those people and.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What is more valuable to you in those with. What's more valuable? Support Actionable or emotional?

[A]

Actionable.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

Do you think I'm an acts of service person?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's how I receive love is acts of service. Words of affirmation don't really do much for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Why do you think that is?

[A]

That I'm an acts of service person?

[C]

That.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

These acts of the emotional isn't as.

[A]

Powerful as the actions because emotional support doesn't change the situation. And I also, I. I do an active job of reminding myself of. What I'm about to say is that like, feelings are all temporary.

[C]

So.

[A]

Like, whenever I'm experiencing a Moment of joy. I try to be like, it's gonna be gone in any second now. And when things are really bad or. Or I'm really anxious or something terrible. Whatever I'm dealing with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I'm like, well, this anxiety is going to pass in an hour. I'm going to be on the other side of it being like, dude, this is all going to be fine. And then an hour after that, I'm going to be back to anxious. Because that's how you process.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Over time. So. Yeah. Emotional support, those emotions are all so fleeting that it's actionable. Things that could actually change the circumstance is more valuable for me.

[C]

But in those moments, doesn't the value of those emotional. Of that emotional support, doesn't that rise?

[A]

No.

[B]

Really? No.

[A]

If I'm in a cold river and you're going, it's going to be okay. The sun's going to come up.

[C]

Well, that's physical harm. Like, of course. Like in, in these moments of anxiety, your. Your panic mode.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

The emotional support isn't value that. That value doesn't rise at all if somebody is talking you through it or helping you with it.

[A]

No. Usually I don't enjoy that because I feel. I don't feel. I think from my experience.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel too, that most people that have tried or been around me when I'm. I mean, I've got a much better grasp on my anxiety.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In my present life. But a few years ago when I was really struggling, people don't know what I'm going through. And they don't. They're just trying to say things to, like, make me feel better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When it's not gonna make me feel. The only thing that's going to happen is time. So it. I tend to find those things, like, annoying more. A little more frustrating.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

What about in times of let's take it less physical and let's go more emotional.

[A]

What are you trying to get me to say?

[C]

I'm wondering in these moments of like. Because I realize that panic attack is like. Is more physical. So like, let's say grief or heartache.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

So in those moments, is emotion still no value there, emotional support?

[A]

I'm not saying it's no value. I just typically access service carry more value with me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I was, if I was going through heartbreak and someone could either call me up and say, hey, just want to check on you, see if you're doing okay, or they could like, bring a pizza over to my house, be like, hey, let's watch a Movie. I'll take the pizza in the. Hang all day and us not even talk about the breakup.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. Does that make sense or no?

[C]

Yeah, I'm one. I'm somebody who verbally processes a lot, so.

[A]

Oh.

[C]

So, yeah, I don't. I think emotional support is higher for me. I'm wondering. I don't know how to word this without like, do you believe that your emotions are your responsibility?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah, I also believe that, but there's a way I'm trying to get to it where it's like, do your emotions feel like a burden to others if you were to ask for help or share them? I know we've talked about the neglect that comes along with that, but does that make them feel like. Again, I don't want to say responsibility because all of our emotions are our responsibility, but like, that you're not allowed to ask for help for those beyond that neglect from childhood.

[A]

I don't think I understand what you're asking me.

[C]

Like, is that wall that is there. We know that obviously the. The base of it is neglect from childhood.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Asking for help and not receive.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with that. So I would expand on neglect more just for.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I wasn't a neglected child.

[C]

No.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just for responsibly for people listening.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

This is your first time on the show. It's not.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So what I'm trying to get at is has that known response. Has that just stacked those bricks higher, or have you been stacking different bricks on there to build that wall, which have just been bricks of logic of there's nobody that can do anything. Nobody can help me with this. It's. It's up to me. I'm the only one that can. Like, nothing that people say can help me with this. Are those the bricks you're adding?

[A]

I'm sure probably both.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's also probably learned that, like, okay, I got in a car accident. I can sit here and cry about it, or I can take the steps to get the thing messed up so I can get my next car and get to work. And like, yeah, life keeps going.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I think that was never told to me, but it was shown to me all throughout my life. Like, life keeps going, so make sure you keep up. I think that's. Does that answer your question?

[C]

Yeah, it adds to it. It adds in the mixture of the bricks.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Like, that's what you're. You're putting in there is like, there's ain't nobody got time for that. So let's go.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

That's, like in the mix.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

For sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's my mother. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I was just like, I was more so wondering if what. What, what bricks you have been adding. Not the bricks that your mother has added, because those are the bricks that we can probably learn how to start taking away. Right.

[A]

I think you probably do with all the bricks. Ideally.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

But I think the other bricks would involve your mother helping you take those bricks away.

[A]

I don't think so.

[C]

Really?

[A]

No, I think you can do enough, and I think you can do a lot of that in therapy. I think for someone like you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I understand why you would think that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

A lot of those bricks are made with context.

[A]

Not even that. I think you. You need to be validated that, like, Michael, I shouldn't have put that brick there. If nobody tells you I shouldn't have put that brick there. You think that brick is supposed to be there and I don't have that. I can go into therapy and understand.

[C]

Like, she shouldn't have put that brick.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Damn. She shouldn't put that brick there. I just am trying to let go of the fact that I don't need her to be like, yeah, that brick's been in the way. I put it there because I thought that's what you needed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I can see that. Yeah. All it's been doing is tripping you up a long time.

[C]

See, that would be so helpful for. It would be somebody like me.

[A]

It'd be helpful for everybody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm just not going to hang up on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, yeah, you, you, you just. You need. You need your feelings validated a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, even with. I mean, it's no secret you've been talking to your relationship on here that, you know, distance has been.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A problem or an obstacle. And. Yeah. You often. I don't think I'm a crazy person for not liking the distance.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who do you need to agree with?

[B]

You.

[A]

You're not crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I don't. I don't need you to tell me I'm not crazy.

[C]

So do you have a plan in place to start taking these bricks down or what?

[A]

Therapy?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We really honestly haven't talked about my mom too much yet. We're still kind of gathering.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

She said something interesting to me in our session yesterday. She said she. Because we've met three or four times now, and she said she can see how fast my mind works. And she said, she's like, I gotta tell you, I Have I feel for your girlfriend? And I was like, why? And she goes, you must be impossible to argue with. And I was like, what do you mean? She's like, I don't think anybody could keep up with you. She's like, you're so quick and you have access to so many words and you know what you're saying so quickly that she's like, I imagine so many people get overwhelmed if they're in like an a heightened conversation with you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, I have received that feedback. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was an interesting observation from her.

[B]

How'd that make you feel?

[A]

It didn't make me feel anything.

[C]

How did you feel upon hearing it? And this is what she's talking about. That just made me so goddamn angry.

[A]

It didn't make you anything. You became angry.

[C]

I became angry upon your response.

[A]

And what. Why do you think anger came up?

[C]

Because you know what I'm saying. You know what I'm asking you. That's the problem that we run into is like, you know that I'm asking you how you responded to that. And instead you're making me go around this track of, like, making you do anything.

[A]

You're doing this on your own now. Have we ever had a conversation where you go, you know what I'm saying? And I go, no, I don't.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Or you're talking to somebody else. And I go, that's not what you're saying.

[C]

Sure. But in moments like this, is it not clear?

[A]

Could be.

[C]

Could be is going to make me.

[A]

Hey, look at that.

[C]

Could be. I don't even know how to say it.

[B]

Weird.

[C]

Because I want to say makes me want to jump out the window. And you say, judge me.

[A]

Do it.

[C]

So it encourages me. It motivates me to want to jump out this window.

[A]

No, it doesn't.

[C]

Oh, buddy.

[A]

I don't think it does.

[C]

This interaction.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Motivates me.

[A]

Sure.

[C]

To jump out. Want to jump out this window.

[A]

I wish that it would motivate you to be accountable for your own feelings, because a couple minutes ago you just said, I do. We are all responsible for own feelings.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then you keep telling me that I'm making you feel things.

[C]

That is what I'm getting at is that is language. And you know what I'm actually saying to you in that moment?

[A]

You'd like to think I am, but you don't know that I know.

[C]

So you're not smart enough to know. After you just told me how smart you were, you just told me how that you're not smart enough to know that.

[A]

Here's the interesting thing. I. Not once did I say, mention my intelligence at all.

[C]

You just went on a two minute thing about how your therapist told you how smart you were.

[A]

Nope. Told you. My therapist said that I must be hard to argue with because I process and respond quickly and have access to a lot of words. I'm intentional with them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you heard that I'm smart, I think actually what you heard is you're dumber than me and now you're projecting it onto me that I'm being arrogant and talking about my intelligence. When I didn't say any of that.

[C]

I didn't. Now here's what you're doing right now. I didn't say you're being arrogant.

[A]

I know. I. You didn't say I was being arrogant.

[C]

Yeah, I don't feel that you're being arrogant.

[A]

Great.

[C]

And I don't think you're being arrogant.

[A]

Do you feel.

[C]

Okay, what I'm saying is.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

Hold on.

[C]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

So you don't think that me telling you my therapist saw in me my ability to be accurate with what I'm trying to say, and a mere moments later, you are now upset because I, I'm. As your words, I'm not smart enough to know what you're saying when really I could ask, are you not smart enough to use the right words?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

And you don't think those are tied that I said my therapist recognizes. And now you're. You're not smart enough to know what I'm saying.

[C]

Oh, yeah, it is. Because I'm calling back to that.

[A]

Okay. You don't feel defensive.

[C]

I feel frustrated in the moments of, like when I say cat, when I'm casual with my language, in a moment like this, of like saying, how did that make you feel? And you're clarifying that with me. And then when I press back on it and say things like, you know what I'm saying, you're like, maybe I don't. That is antagonist antagonizing me in a way that I think you're doing on purpose to then make me more frustrated in a moment. And that, guess what? You win. Because that is frustrating for me. So in other contexts. Frustrating for you in other. I thought I was talking. You are. In other context, though. Yes. You can ding me on that. On being like, no, you need to be more careful with your words or clarify because we have been in that loop before. But in a conversation that is as simple as how did that make you feel? And you're telling me I don't know what you're asking me.

[A]

I didn't say I don't know what you're asking. I said it didn't make me feel anything.

[C]

Yeah, but then you, like, we went on this whole thing, right? So.

[A]

Yeah, because you said you wanted to jump out the window. Because I said it didn't make me feel.

[B]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[C]

Because I take it as purposeful antagonization. Is that a word? Probably not in purpose. Purposefully antagonizing me. Is that the way you say it?

[A]

That's English.

[C]

I don't know. Anyways, I. I take that. That is what is the frustrating part is because again, in a simple statement, as when we're in a casual conversation, I go, how'd that make you feel? And you feel the need to correct me.

[A]

I'm so correcting you. I'm answering your question.

[C]

Okay, that isn't.

[A]

It's true. You're.

[C]

That's not on purpose to. That's not a pushback. When you do things like that. That's not a. That's not a push. Really. That is literally just clarification for you.

[A]

I'm literally answering your question. But you said, how did it make you feel? It didn't make me feel anything.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

That's my answer to your question.

[C]

So any. If you were. If we didn't know each other and this was a stranger, you would respond like that?

[A]

I. It depends on how familiar I am with the stranger. I might give context as to why that's my answer. Yeah, but you already know why that's my answer. So it would be the same question. There might just be more context.

[C]

You don't. You. You don't see how that can be antagonizing.

[A]

With you?

[C]

Sure. With anybody.

[A]

No.

[C]

Really, I.

[A]

But this is the conversation we have all the time. Some people. You. I could have the same exact interaction with two people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

One person's antagonized, one isn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People are different. People receive things differently. Just like you said, I take that as antagonizing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why do you take it that way?

[C]

Because of what I've just been saying. Because, like, I know you know.

[A]

Nope. You don't know. I know.

[C]

And this is. We're back to the loop where I'm. This is why I'm saying, like, you talk about intelligence a lot and then. But you're not.

[A]

Again, what is me talking about?

[C]

That you value it. That you like. You like. You don't like small talk. You like deep conversations. You like intelligent people. You're not going to waste your time with folks this and that. Like all of that is intelligence, right.

[A]

Give and receive in your mind. I understand that. That's not what I'm saying.

[C]

You don't value intelligence.

[A]

In certain people. I do.

[C]

You don't seek it out.

[A]

I don't know how you would seek it. How do you seek out intelligence? That's not something that's like on the book cover.

[B]

You know what I mean? Yeah.

[A]

If I have a choice. If you go, hey, would you rather talk to somebody intelligent or somebody dumb as. Yeah, I would say intelligent, yeah.

[C]

Most of us would probably.

[A]

But I like when you bring up small talk. I don't not enjoy small talk because I'm too smart for it. I'm not interested in how was your day? Oh, I don't care.

[C]

Why aren't you interested?

[A]

It's not stimulating to me. I don't enjoy it.

[C]

And why isn't it stimulating?

[A]

Because I'm not interested.

[B]

Right.

[C]

What I take it as is that all of that is intelligence based because it's not stimulating. So you. It's below your level of, of interaction because of the intelligence of it.

[A]

So I don't feel that way. I understand.

[C]

That's how it's come across. Sorry for me.

[A]

Don't need to apologize.

[C]

I don't care.

[A]

Yeah, that's fine.

[C]

Yeah, I just wasn't. Yeah, okay, so.

[A]

But yeah, okay. I don't need to prove myself. It's fine. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

But, yeah, so in these moments where I'm like, in a casual conversation where there is a slip up, right? Or if I say, you know, the other day we were. If, you know, there's like a mispronounce, a mispronunciation of a word. Right. And I say like, yeah, we're at the derby the other day and you go, oh, that's derby.

[A]

What the is a derby?

[C]

A derby, Like a horse. Like a, like the derby.

[A]

Oh, we were at the derby.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like something like that. Okay, so like that. That correction isn't antagonizing to you. That is just corrective behavior.

[A]

Then if it's between you and I, I'm breaking your balls.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you say Darby and I go, well, I don't know what that is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's so breaking balls.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I take that the same way as when I'm like, how'd that make you feel? And you're going to make me feel it. And I'm like, okay, you know what? I'M saying, though. So in the same way that you go. I think you know that I'm saying derby because we're talking about horses or whatever the fuck we're talking about. Like, if you know what we're talking about.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And you correct me, then I feel like that is antagonizing behavior because I'm like, you're purposefully doing that.

[A]

I didn't correct you. I answered your question. You just didn't like how I answered it. And you felt like I was attacking you, and I understand that.

[C]

So. So you do understand that.

[A]

Well, you. 10 minutes of you telling me how.

[B]

Yeah, but you, as soon as you.

[A]

Started, you talking about how smart you were. Well, you're smart enough to know I was like, he's hurting right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Cuz that is frustrating to. It takes me out of the conversation. It rips me out of it because.

[A]

I'm like, does it or do you leave it?

[C]

What do you mean, do I leave the conversation or does it take me out of it? Is this what you're trying to do? Are you trying to refresh. I know you are.

[A]

That one.

[B]

I did. Yeah.

[C]

But that. This feels like it every time.

[A]

Why does it take you out of the conversation?

[C]

Because there is a. I feel like language. There's a rhythm to it. There's a rhythm to conversation. And to be interrupted within that rhythm throws. Throws my dance off. You know what I mean? Like, we were. We were waltzing just now, and then you stepped on my toe.

[A]

I don't understand how me answering your question is stepping on your toe.

[C]

It wasn't. It wasn't that. It was answering the question, though, in a way that.

[A]

So I didn't answer it the way you wanted me to.

[C]

You could have. Here's. Here's the example. Right. In casual conversation. Hey, you know, I was talking to my mom the other day, and she was like, pretty angry with me. Oh, how'd that make you feel? I just couldn't believe how upset she was. Like, I didn't realize I upset her that much. That's a casual conversation. Instead, what happened was I was talking to mom the other day and she was pretty angry with me. How'd that make you feel? Didn't make me feel anything. How did you feel about the. The her being angry? Oh, well, I. Blah, blah, blah. So, you know, in that moment, you know what I'm asking you, but you're purposely not going along with the conversation. You want to stop it, correct it.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And then make me go around the correct way.

[A]

You're not being corrected.

[C]

Then what is it? It. You think it's literally just the answer.

[A]

I'm answering your question.

[C]

You're not forcing me to go around the long way.

[A]

I can't believe that you. This. This has been 10 minutes of you refusing to be like, oh, if I slowed down and thought before I talked, I could have asked the question I meant to ask. Not even an option. It. Everybody else is responsible for your feeling attacked or feeling corrected or feeling dismissed. Okay, in this, you're right. I know exactly what you mean to say all the time.

[C]

Not all the time.

[A]

Oh, no, dude.

[C]

In a simple back and forth that we were having in that moment. Yes. I don't think that's my fault. I think. I think you made me go around the long way. I think you made me go around the long way.

[A]

What is the long way?

[C]

What I just gave an example of.

[A]

So you having to go. How'd that make you feel? That didn't mean feel anything. How'd you feel about it then? That's the long way. That's the mild trek out of the way. You had to go, oh, I'm so sorry. Let me commend your bravery. You went on that journey like a brave boy.

[C]

Shut about that. It's about interrupting the conversation, interrupting the dance.

[A]

Hey, dude, you're the only one that gives a. About the dance.

[C]

You don't. You don't feel a certain way when I don't even know if that's the right way. Now you got me second guessing everything.

[A]

I don't have you doing anything. You're doing it on your own, sir. Oh, I don't know. I don't give a. About the rhythm. I don't care.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. You want to know what I think happened?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You think you got corrected. You felt embarrassed. You felt, oh, they're gonna think I'm dumb, and you started panicking. Oh, that's what I think happened.

[C]

Not in this moment. In other moments. Sure. In this moment was just the frustration of being like. It really just felt like a poke. Like I was like. You know what I'm saying?

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And. And then to. To double up on. No, I don't. That put me to the moon.

[A]

Well, did it? Or did you just go to the moon? Hey, yeah.

[C]

Let me be clear. Yeah, it put me to the moon.

[A]

Put you to the moon. Well, I hope it was fun. Oh, my God.

[B]

I can't.

[C]

You don't see any of that. That's so wild.

[A]

I just don't care.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

How'd that make you feel? And I said it didn't make me feel anything. How could you say that? Dude, what are we doing here?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What was your question?

[C]

I don't even know.

[A]

So my therapist said I must be hard to argue with. How did that make me feel?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, I'm responsible for my feelings, so it didn't make me feel anything. If you want to ask what I thought of her response or how I felt about her submitting that idea and.

[C]

And someone argue going the long way.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[C]

That is the question I'm trying to ask.

[A]

I think. Oh, I was. I. I think I remember. I don't know. It's not a feeling. I was like, oh, wow, she picked up on that pretty quick. And like, I haven't even argued with her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, oh, okay. And then I was like, yeah, no, I have gotten that feedback. Yeah, for sure. Didn't really feel much. It was just like, oh, interesting.

[C]

What do you think about the feedback that you. When you get it, like, what just happened here?

[A]

That's. I don't. Yeah, I'm. I'm not the one misspeaking. I'm. I'm saying what I mean to say, so I don't. It sucks you felt poked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know. I also know that could be avoided by you asking what you're intending to ask.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we've had the conversation a lot. You, you know, you. Well, you know what I'm saying Sometimes. Sometimes I really don't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've literally said out loud, I wonder if I stopped and thought before I talked.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[C]

Yes, I agree with you.

[A]

Let's not act like I'm agreeing with.

[C]

You on that kind of ability. Yes, absolutely.

[A]

That's all. I'm trying to see both sides of it. And you're seeing as like you made me go the long way on camera, on the record, like, buddy.

[C]

Oh, no, I just mean in life in general.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[C]

Like, when we do it off air too, it drives me bananas.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do it more.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How do you feel in like. Did you feel that way in these moments that you, like, can't keep up with what I'm process or saying?

[C]

No, but I feel like. I think, I feel. I don't know. This is what you do to me. Not well. See, now I don't even know how to talk. This is how I feel. Is that if I don't say any Everything exact, then that is the ammunition that it feeds to you. Not necessarily. I'm not worried about how quick you are. Or the jargon and this and that. I'm worried about getting my own stuff. Like, I'm shooting bullets at you and you're taking them and, like, doing the Matrix and just like, flipping them back at me. And I'm like, that's how it. That's how it feels.

[A]

What are the. What do you mean you're shooting bullets at me?

[C]

Like, if I'm. Like if I miss speak or something like that, then that becomes the conversation. That becomes the argument. It. We stopped from what we initially were talking about. And then it becomes, I think a lot of times you. Well, just like you did in this moment, right, where you were like, you predict what I'm feeling and using it against me because of the personal information that you know about me. So, like, you know that I do have an issue with coming off dumb.

[A]

I think you have an issue. You have yet to admit that.

[C]

Oh, I definitely do. I've admitted that to you.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, I keep going like, you about to say you think they're gonna think you don't, and you're like, yeah, I didn't know that was like a thing. Yeah, I thought that was still a hypothesis I had.

[C]

No, no. So, yeah, that's definitely a thing. Um, but it's not an. It's not an always thing. And I think that's what happens is sometimes when we share that information gets stored and then it gets. That's the bullets that's getting put back to me is like, just. What played out just now is I was like, yeah, but you know what? I'm. No, I don't know what you're saying. And I'm like, in this moment. Yes, In a simple, casual conversation that we're having in this moment. Not all the time. Right. And so then that takes away the. All the time. And then. And then you go down this road of like, I know who you are deep down, so I'm going to use that in this moment. So now it no longer becomes, hey, casual conversation rhythm. It becomes, now you're afraid of looking dumb. This is what's happening now. You're trying to know accountability. And so that's. That's the way that you get ahead of me in arguments where I'm like, now I'm hung up or emotionally heightened because you've brought up all of these deeper personal issues that you know about me that we have shared.

[A]

Okay. And you think I'm bringing those up not as context of knowing you, but as a way to dig at You.

[C]

A way to heighten my emotions.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because if I get so flustered on that, it's almost like distraction. Right. So it's like, if I get so flustered on that, and then you remain calm because you, you know, like, oh, I know what I'm getting. And then I get all spazzy, and I'm like, no, it's not about that. And you're like, do you find that.

[A]

When we're in conversations that you're trying to win, or you think I'm trying to win the conversation?

[C]

Yeah, I think you're trying to win all. Every time.

[A]

What does winning a conversation mean?

[C]

Proving that you are right.

[A]

To who? Whom.

[B]

Both of us.

[C]

To me. Probably. Because you already know or you already assume that you're right. I mean, that's what arguments are. Right? You're just fighting for what you believe in. So, like, if you believe in this idea, then if you win, then you have shown that I am wrong about the idea and that you were right about the idea or whoever's arguing.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Like, that's what an argument is. So I think that is your end.

[A]

Goal is to win the conversation.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

All right.

[C]

I think anybody arguing. That's.

[A]

I didn't know we were arguing. And, like, I literally thought I was answering your question.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And here, maybe this will help.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

There is a layer that we are in the podcast.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

So me saying, you can't. It didn't make me feel anything. We're on the podcast. Like, I have been supportive of my thought or stance that I'm responsible.

[C]

Okay. Cold, cold.

[B]

Show.

[A]

That I'm responsible for my feelings, and you can't make me feel anything. I can't make you feel anything.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the fact that we're on the podcast does add a layer. So when you say how to make you feel, I do think the most accurate answer I can give you is, it didn't make me feel anything.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Does that help?

[C]

Sure. Okay, now, to my point, when I. When you. You. There was a moment of doubling down. So when I. When I pushed back, saying what? Say pushback, you said, it doesn't make me feel anything. And I say, you know what I'm saying. And you said, no, I don't. Now, that.

[B]

Huh?

[C]

That's poke, right?

[A]

That's not a poke.

[C]

That's not a poke.

[A]

That's not a poke.

[C]

What is that?

[A]

That is. Okay, here's the thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That'S a poke.

[A]

That's not a poke. So you say how to make you feel. I said it didn't make me feel anything. You say, you know what I'm trying to say. I say, no, I don't. Yeah, I don't. That's not a poke.

[C]

What is that then? Clarify that action.

[A]

We've had that conversation so many times.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That you're like, you know what I'm trying to say? And I say, it's your responsibility to get your message across, not mine to interpret it. I, I, in that moment, I was speaking to all of that, not just that one moment.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So.

[A]

But I can see how you felt. It was a poke.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I do think you overreacted the poke.

[C]

Absolutely. Yeah. Because.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It felt like a double poke.

[A]

Jesus.

[C]

It felt like the first one was like, didn't make me feel it. And I was like, we're doing this. Okay. Because I felt like we were. Again, this is the rhythm of the conversation. I felt like we were having. We've been having, like, this great back and forth about feelings and you are actually opening up more and things like that.

[A]

And then you have some great questions today.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

I noticed that.

[C]

And then it just felt like, again, if that's the disruptive of the rhythm that I'm like, we're having this great back and forth and then you wanna. Oh, you wanna fuck it up by.

[A]

Being like, can I say something?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I didn't feel disrupted at all.

[C]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That didn't.

[B]

No.

[A]

You being like that makes me want to jump out the window. I was like, we're off topic now. We are for sure off topic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But no, that, that's not a. That doesn't up the rhythm for me.

[C]

What if somebody were to do that to you? That wouldn't.

[A]

Can I ask you a question first?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

Do you, do you think or feel that? Because it sounds like you think I intentionally disrupted the rhythm. Do you think that me intentionally disrupting the rhythm is a tool to win the conversation?

[C]

I don't know the motivation behind it because we weren't trying. There was no, like, winning the conversation.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't think anybody wins a conversation.

[A]

Can I make a point?

[C]

Sure.

[A]

You don't know the motivation behind anything. It's all just. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

And I think that's what that adds to the frustration on my end because I'm like, why is he doing this?

[A]

You could just say that out loud.

[C]

So next time I go, hey, how'd that make you feel? And you go, didn't make me feel anything. Why are you doing this?

[A]

Sure.

[C]

And you would go, because you're not speaking correctly would say I answered your question. Right, but it still leads to.

[A]

It doesn't have to.

[C]

Sure.

[A]

You don't think it would change if you just asked, why you doing that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, why are you trying to piss me off? I go, I'm not trying to piss you off. I answered your question.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

Let's finish this in the after the pod, okay? We got to be getting up there in time, huh?

[B]

Yeah, probably.

[C]

All right, we'll see you on the after pod. Go to Patreon.

[A]

Patreon, you freeloading. We're gonna fight it out.

[C]

We're gonna fight. We'll see who wins.

[A]

Take it off. My headphones. And we know that.