Expressing Gratitude But Why Doesn't Dad Love Me? | #019 Replay

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy #019 Replay: "Expressing Gratitude But Why Doesn't Dad Love Me?"

Podcast: Secondhand Therapy
Hosts: Louie Paoletti & Michael Malone
Air Date: December 22, 2025
Studio: PonyBear Studios

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Episode Overview

In this replay of one of their most beloved episodes, Louie and Michael dive deep into questions of validation, fatherhood, and the complexities of seeking love and self-worth. Sharing honest and often hilarious reflections from their therapy sessions, the hosts unpack childhood wounds, parental relationships, people-pleasing, body image, and gratitude—all with characteristic vulnerability and wit. Central to the discussion are unresolved feelings towards Louie's father, the enduring impact of absentee or emotionally distant parents, and how these experiences shape adult life and self-perception.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. The Roots of Validation-Seeking

[05:58 – 14:42]

• Louie recounts opening a therapy session with the question: “Why am I so hooked on validation from others?” [06:05]
  • Wonders if abundant love from his mother set an impossible external standard: “I need to have this equal amount of love that I'm getting from my mother. I need to get that from strangers.” [06:28]
• They joke about the performative actions Louie did as a kid (Chris Farley impressions, physical comedy) to win approval:
  • “Is he the one that you would have chosen to impersonate if you could choose anybody? ... No. ... But he was the one I got stuck with.” [08:09 – 08:18]
  • His therapist reframes this: choosing Chris Farley was about controlling the narrative before bullies did.
  • “If you are already making fun of yourself ... then they couldn't do that.” [10:26]
  • Michael identifies with the “fake it” shield: “That's using humor as a 101.” [10:42]

2. The “Right Decision” Trap & Childhood Pressure

[11:17 – 16:47]

• Louie explains his mom gave him a lot of freedom as long as he was trustworthy.
  • The therapy insight: that was a lot of pressure for a child (“to make the right decision”).
• Both hosts discuss the persistent and complicated feelings adults have about “making the right choice.”
  • Michael: “Even logically... there’s so many instances ... you’re never going to know what would have happened if you bought the other one.” [14:19]
• The aftermath of “wrong” decisions: How to stop wallowing, find self-compassion, and focus on aftercare.

3. Chasing Fatherly Validation & Family Dynamics

[17:09 – 38:03]

• Louie describes his father as intermittently present: “seeing him” meant finding him sleeping on the couch between golfing and nights out, not real father-son time.
  • “So he was never, like, home. Like being dad. He’d just crash.” [18:06]
• His dad was “cool”: jazz style, hung with Black musicians, nicknamed “Julio”—everything Louie felt he wasn’t.
  • "I wasn't cool enough to hang out with my dad." [21:38]
• Therapy breakthrough: “I shouldn't have to be cool enough for my dad to like me. My dad should just fucking like me. He's my dad.” [21:47]
• Grappling with empathy versus resentment as an adult: Understanding addiction’s role without excusing absence.
  • "Why couldn't you just fucking love me? ... Then you think about the addiction ... and you wonder what the capacity is for that." [27:12]

4. Contrasting Biological and Step-Parent Influence

[34:52 – 37:53]

• Discussions with stepdad Wayne—a “good dude” who truly showed up—lead to a critical realization:
  • The love Louie endlessly chased was about title and power (biological dad), not character and merit (stepdad Wayne).
  • His therapist’s drop-the-mic insight: “Your struggles [are] between being Craig or Wayne.” [36:55]
  • Louie: "Wayne had merit and character and didn't matter as much because I wasn't seeking that validation. I already had the love from Wayne." [37:20]

5. Grappling with Gratitude & Chasing “Enough”

[38:40 – 48:15]

• Gratitude practice is a challenge when self-worth is wired to external accomplishments.
  • Michael: “I would love for it to be enough for you one day. No matter what you get, it’s never enough, it’s always about what you didn’t get.” [40:05]
• Comparing yourself to others (even in podcast stats, cars, and “success”) is a relentless struggle in modern life, fed by social media.
  • “Sometimes you scroll your phone and you see other podcasts are doing these kinds of numbers… It's hard to not compare yourself. No one's immune to that.” [47:11]

6. Survivor’s Guilt, Body Image & EMDR Therapy

[44:42 – 54:45]

• The hosts reflect on survivor’s guilt and how their sadness sometimes seems out of sync with their objectively “good” lives.
• Michael discusses starting EMDR therapy (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing), focusing first on body image issues.
  • Through therapy, he traces the hurt from “I’m fat” to “I’m worthless.”
    • “If that were true, what would that mean? ... I guess that I’m worthless.” [49:49–50:06]
  • Both describe common, deep-rooted discomfort with mirrors and self-image:
    • “How great would that be to see yourself with your shirt off and be like, yep, there it is. And then get on with your fucking day?” [54:11]

7. The Concept of "Magical Thinking"

[56:58 – 58:23]

• Louie shares a key therapy phrase: "Magical thinking"—the illusion that, had you been different, the outcome (like a better parental relationship) would have magically changed. In reality, those things were never your responsibility or within your control.
  • “Thinking you have the power to make a situation different, when it has nothing to do with you.” [57:49]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

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• On fatherly love:

  “I shouldn’t have to be cool enough for my dad to like me. My dad should just fucking like me. He’s my dad.”
  — Louie [21:47]

• On self-worth:

  “[Therapist:] You think because of the way you look, you’re worthless?”
  — Michael recounting EMDR preparatory session [50:06]

• On internal pressure:

  "That's a lot of pressure for a child, huh? To make the right decision."
  — Louie quoting therapist [12:29]

• On therapy progress:

  “I look at where I am now compared to a few years ago, and, like, it’s not even close.”
  — Michael [56:03]

• On the myth of control ("magical thinking"):

  “If I was just cooler, my dad would have loved me. Hey, man, if your dad was cooler, he would have loved you.”
  — Louie [57:49]

• Humor to soften the hard stuff:

  "Daddy wasn’t there to take me to the fair to change my underwear. Seems he doesn’t care."
  — Louie (parody song) [05:35]

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Reflective and Emotional High Points

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• Louie’s emotional realization that he’s been seeking his father’s validation, not because of anything lacking in his stepdad, but because he associated “love” with title and power rather than character and presence. [36:55]
• Michael’s reveal of core body image beliefs—that at root, negative body talk is about perceived worthlessness. [50:06]
• Both hosts’ admissions that, despite good external circumstances, sadness, anxiety, and the chase for “enough” persist. [43:59–44:28]
• Honest grappling with resentment, empathy, and unresolvable grief about absent or lost parents. [27:12–28:15]

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Takeaways and Closing Thoughts

• The deep work of healing father wounds isn’t just about the past—it continues to shape adult relationships, ambitions, and self-image.
• Gratitude and presence are powerful, but hard-won.
• “Magical thinking” keeps us stuck in cycles of blame and self-doubt—acceptance requires letting go of the illusion of control over others.
• Therapy is a painful but transformative process, often best met with humor and the support of fellow travelers.

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Secondhand Therapy continues to be a beacon of raw, funny, and compassionate self-exploration, making hard topics accessible and, surprisingly, a little bit joyful.

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Transcript

[Craig]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com Secondhand TherapyPod this episode of.

[Wayne]

Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. Yes, BetterHelp is an online resource for therapy.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

And I don't know who would have guessed it. I don't know if you know about the show, but we're actually very pro therapy around here. Very pro therapy.

[Craig]

That is the rumor that's going around.

[Wayne]

It's helped me a lot.

[Craig]

Tell me more.

[Wayne]

It really has. You don't notice a change in me, Is that what you're saying?

[Craig]

I do.

[Wayne]

Okay, then has it helped you?

[Craig]

Absolutely. I'm in Better Help right now and my therapist is awesome.

[Wayne]

Your therapist sounds pretty great. I'm not gonna lie.

[Craig]

He did. I'm so happy with him. And like whenever we have to reschedule or something changes, it's so easy. It's like literally like two, two clicks and it's done.

[Wayne]

I have to call mine. It's terrible. But here's what I will say. I was always very much an in person therapy kind of set up for myself. Yeah, I'm on telehealth now.

[Craig]

Way better. Oh, yeah, dude.

[Wayne]

Doing therapy like from your couch or like where you're in your space where you're comfortable? Dude, I'm. I'm doing way better.

[Craig]

That's one of the best parts of Better Help is that I get to do it from my cozy little corner chair.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Dim the lights. I light a candle. It is therapy time. Yeah.

[Wayne]

I don't ever want to go back to a therapy office again. So that's where we're at now. Since they are a new sponsor of ours, they were nice enough to give us a little discount code for you to use. So a little treat.

[Craig]

Yeah. If.

[Wayne]

If you're hearing this, maybe you're in between insurance and you would like to start some therapy. Or maybe you've never been to therapy and you really want to try it out. Better helps a really good start. They make it easy to find and pair up with somebody and it's very affordable. So if you want to give it a shot, you can use the discount code they gave us. You can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy or just betterhelp.com and it'll ask you where you heard about it. Choose Secondhand Therapy. They'll give you 10% off your first month. Try it out. Start your healing journey. Change my life. To change your life.

[Craig]

I'm changed.

[Wayne]

He's changing. Changing.

[Craig]

Hello. My little bear cubs. It is me, Mama bear. We are on our little break and so you are about to watch and. Or listen to a rerun. I don't, I don't know what it's called now. We redid a. We redid a bunch of the titles. So at the time this was called Cool Enough. It's episode number 29. It's one of my favorite episodes. It is about dads and validation and body image and all kinds of fun stuff. But before we get into that, I need to remind you that we are not therapists, we're not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy and this is not professional advice in any way. It wasn't then, it isn't now. So I hope you enjoy the episode again. It's one of my favorites. Also, you're going to hear some ads. If you don't want to hear those ads, head on over to Patreon. You can join us over there. It's patreon.com secondhand therapy. You get ad free episodes. There's a bunch of merch discounts. We're doing live hangouts over there. You get early access to shows and you get access to a completely different podcast that is non therapy related called the Other Show. It's super fun and sometimes it is therapy related. So go check that out if you want to. If you want to get all those little goodies. Also, we have merch available and all kinds of stuff. Over@secondhand therapy.com you can check out all of our merch. We have hoodies, we got tie dyes, we got earth tones, we got tote bags, all kinds of stuff. Get that last minute shopping in for Christmas. Yeah, I think that covers pretty much all of this. We are on a little break, as you all know. So we will see you soon and we love you, we miss you and head on over to Patreon. Bye.

[Wayne]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back.

[Craig]

Secondhand therapy be. And we know that how you got to have daddy issues when you ain't got no dad? You know what I mean? Yeah.

[Wayne]

I feel like that's the, the root.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Of daddy issues.

[Craig]

That's the rooter is.

[Wayne]

Well, just the root.

[Craig]

The rooter of the tutor.

[Wayne]

It's.

[Craig]

That's what I told my therapist. I said, how you gonna have. How am I gonna have daddy issues when I ain't got no dad? I said that verbatim.

[Wayne]

And she said, did you hear yourself?

[Craig]

She said, I have to see other clients now. Yeah, yeah.

[Wayne]

She goes, obviously you have daddy issues because you don't have a dad.

[Craig]

Daddy wasn't there.

[Wayne]

Daddy wasn't there to take me to the fair to change my underwear. Seems he doesn't care.

[Craig]

It seems he doesn't care.

[Wayne]

All right, go ahead.

[Craig]

Oh, buddy.

[Wayne]

So spoiler alert. Your dad wasn't around.

[Craig]

Yeah, I think we are. I mean, we know that. We know that, and we know that.

[Wayne]

Don't take my fucking.

[Craig]

I'm just borrowing it.

[Wayne]

Catchphrase. You can borrow it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

And we know that.

[Craig]

I guess it started with this idea of validation.

[Wayne]

You and an idea, not an idea.

[Craig]

Yeah, I. Cause I was. I opened the session with being like, why am I so hooked on validation from others?

[Wayne]

Yeah. What.

[Craig]

How do I stop this cycle? Like, you and I have been talking about this a lot where.

[Wayne]

Yeah, you're.

[Craig]

Why do you give a addicted. Yeah.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Fiend.

[Craig]

And he's a problem.

[Wayne]

It's a problem. And we know that.

[Craig]

So we started there with this question of what is. What is this search, this constant need for validation? And I, I, I said, is it. Is it because I had so much love from my mother at home that when I went out into the world, that the love wasn't there from strangers? And so I was like, oh, I need to have this equal amount of love that I'm getting from my mother. I need to get that from strangers.

[Wayne]

So even though your mom was giving you so much love, it still wasn't enough, you know, you think, yeah.

[Craig]

Or it was what I was used to, you know, because you're, you know.

[Wayne]

You step out of the house and you're cold turkey.

[Craig]

Yeah. You're a dumb little kid. You don't know. You're like, hey, wait a minute.

[Wayne]

I was a smart little kid. Go ahead.

[Craig]

Why doesn't everybody love me like mom does?

[Wayne]

Because they're not your mom. But, yeah, go ahead.

[Craig]

Oh, you have to earn that. You're like, oh, how do I earn that? Well, do tricks.

[Wayne]

They're like, be skinny. You're like, yeah, don't know how to do that.

[Craig]

It's the only thing I can't do. We did get into that a little bit about. Because she was asking me about my childhood and what validation from others looked like when I was young.

[Wayne]

Cupcake.

[Craig]

Yeah. And we were talking about. We've talked about this in other episodes where I was very performative and I was doing Chris Farley impressions and falling through tables and all these things. And she hit me with this, which was interesting. She goes. She goes, why? You know, even though Chris is very funny and very talented, she's like, is he the one that you would have chosen to impersonate if you could choose anybody? And I said, no. And I said, but he was the one I got stuck with.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And she goes, interesting. And I go, out of curiosity, who.

[Wayne]

Would your choice have been?

[Craig]

Probably Prior or Hicks.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. Like those are my two big. Like, especially Hicks, because not a lot of people know about him. Yeah. And Bill Hicks. And Bill Hicks, if you're listening, look.

[Wayne]

Up his stand up. He's great.

[Craig]

He's incredible.

[Wayne]

He's dead.

[Craig]

But I said. I said that was the one I was stuck with. And she said, well, that's interesting. And I go, what do you mean? And she goes, well, I mean, nobody assigned you to. You weren't stuck with that.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I go, oh, okay. I go, well, that's the one I chose because that would be the one that would get me the most attention and love and whatever.

[Wayne]

It's the easiest one to get laughed at.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

They're not laughing at what you're saying. They're just laughing at you, Right? Yes.

[Craig]

And she said. And I said that, you know, whatever. And she goes.

[Wayne]

I hate that.

[Craig]

Don't you hate there? And they're like, they want you to come around to just tell me. Tell me the fucking answer.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Oh, you see that smug look on your face? Swap it for some words, lady. What?

[Craig]

Clue, man. I like to buy a vowel.

[Wayne]

Hey, man, quick question. What? Go ahead.

[Craig]

Yeah, so I said that this was, you know, the one I got stuck with. She said, interesting. And then we. And then she said. She said, she's gone on there. And she goes, well, you don't know that. I said what? She says, you don't know that. If you would have done another impression, then it wouldn't have given you the same amount of love or whatever. You were just choosing that one. And she goes, I think you chose that one because it allowed you control. Because a lot of my anxiety, even though I'm a super chill, laid back dude, a lot of my anxiety is rooted in control. And so she goes, it allowed you to control the bullying from others if you were already beating them to the punch. If you are already making fun of yourself and making fun of your weight and how you presented yourself, then they couldn't do that.

[Wayne]

Yeah, that's. That's using humor as a 101.

[Craig]

That's fake it. 101, right?

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. But it was interesting to hear it. When you think that you. When you think that. When I'm thinking that I had a choice. Or when. I'm sorry, when I'm thinking that I didn't have a choice and that I did. That was interesting way to unpack that, to be like, yeah, you could have done Bill Hicks. You could have done that.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And you didn't because you thought you were stuck with Chris because just fat. Yep.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yep. Yeah. That was a wild thing to unpack in the childhood department. And then we started talking more about childhood and people pleasing and validation and mom and this need to always just be a good boy.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

With the trust that came. Because I had a lot of freedom with my mother, but she needed to trust me, that I would make the right decisions. And my therapist stopped me again when I said that, because she was like, well, what would happen if you ever disappointed your mother?

[Wayne]

Mm.

[Craig]

And I said, well, nothing. Nothing would happen. Like, I just. It just would hurt her. And I didn't want to hurt mom because mom's the person who loved me the most, and so it would hurt me the most if to hurt her. And I said that she trusted me a lot to make the right decision. And she says, the right decision. I was like, is there a frank echo in here? She goes, that's a lot of pressure for a child, huh? To make the right decision.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I said, huh? She goes, what makes it the right decision?

[Wayne]

If mom likes it?

[Craig]

Right.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I said, well, you know, things that will keep me safe or make sure that I'm okay. And, you know, again, like, she's trusting me to. To have this freedom, so she needs to know that I can handle it, that I can be okay, that I'm gonna be safe and I'm gonna do things and make decisions that will, you know, take care of me.

[Wayne]

Mm.

[Craig]

She says, hmm, that's something you still struggle with today, huh? I was like, uh huh. She's like, interesting. Making the right decision, Making the right decisions and the pressure that goes along with it.

[Wayne]

Cause you always think you're gonna miss.

[Craig]

Out, miss out, or choose wrong and hurt somebody or not have the confidence in myself to know that this is the best decision for me. I think that goes back to that executive dysfunction that happens with my adhd when that meets up with the pressures of making the right decision. Jesus, dude, that's a beast.

[Wayne]

Do you still think there is right and wrong decisions?

[Craig]

You and I talk about this.

[Wayne]

I'm like, we're not talking about morals, okay?

[Craig]

I know that you're a big. You're a big proponent on. It's just a decision.

[Wayne]

There is No, I, I'm trying to instill that belief in myself.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

I still feel the pressure of right and wrong decision. I'm really trying to let go of that.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Because even, you know, I'm a logical guy.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Even logically, there is in so many instances when it comes to, like, the path of your life, like, obviously, morals, there's a right and wrong decision. But when it comes to, like, you're buying a car and you, you're stuck between two, like, there's no right or wrong decision. You're never going to know what happened if you bought the other one.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

So, yeah, I just, I really, I'm trying so hard to instill that myself, that there's no right or wrong. It's just a decision. You're never gonna know what would have happened if you went the other way, and you're never gonna know if it would have been better or worse. So you made a decision, go with it.

[Craig]

Yeah, that's a, that's a big hurdle to get over, though, especially.

[Wayne]

Are you sure? Yeah, man.

[Craig]

Especially for a super chill, laid back dude like myself.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah. The pressures of making the right decision or what's best for you, again, that goes back into what we talked about a few weeks ago about that security that comes with just having a mother sign off every once in a while on like, hey, you're gonna be okay. Like, when you feel like you've made the wrong or bad decision, man, it'd be great to have somebody like a mom tell you you're gonna be okay.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Because a lot of times we wallow in that, you know, like, oh, I fucked up.

[Wayne]

I fucked up. You know? Yeah.

[Craig]

I am trying to do a better job in the aftermath of it.

[Wayne]

Of the aftermath of making the decision.

[Craig]

Yeah. When you feel like it's. When it, when it goes wrong and you, you're kicking yourself being like, I fuck, I knew I should have done this. I'm really trying to work. That's what I'm working on more than like, this idea of like, there is no right or wrong decision is the aftercare of it and being, and being able to let go sooner of that situation and going, okay, you know what? I can't fucking change it. That's the decision I made. That's the outcome. There's no reason to sit here and go, what if, what if, what if? Yeah, it's done.

[Wayne]

How's that going?

[Craig]

Slow.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But it's helped me a lot in some situations where you just go, you know what? That's It. And I'll never know the other way.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

It's a weird thing because it's so easy to be liked up. Should have done the other one. The other one could have been ten times worse. Yeah. And sooner. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, Life is so weird. Anyway, you're talking about your dad.

[Craig]

Oh.

[Wayne]

But we got off track with Chris Farley and.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Mom, what's going on with your dad?

[Craig]

So I thought I was chasing this validation from my mother, right? And then she brings up, dad, Daddy, And I was like. She starts talking about what it was like when he was to come around. Did the energy shift? Was it. Was it exciting when he was there, or was it dreadful?

[Wayne]

How often would he come around? Like, on an average week.

[Craig]

Probably three times.

[Wayne]

How about on, like, a good week, if you saw him a lot?

[Craig]

Probably five times. But seeing him meant that he just made it home that night and fell asleep on the couch. He never went to bed. He always slept on the couch in the living room. So seeing my father meant that, like, oh, I. I caught him in the morning when he's sleeping on the couch, and I had to be quiet during breakfast and all that stuff.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And he would get up around 10 or 11, and then he'd be out the door to go golfing or meet up with his friends or whatever. And then I wouldn't see him again until usually the next morning, sleeping on the couch. So I'd have a few moments with him here and there. So he was never, like, home. Yeah. Like being dad, you just crash. Yeah.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And that was only once we moved to this house, that he was only.

[Wayne]

With us for a year before he passed Main Street.

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah. We lived right next door to my grandmother. And, yeah, that was the most. That he was home because it was like a new home. It was bigger. They were, like, trying. I think they were trying to, like, fall in love again.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And spoiler alert.

[Wayne]

That's what killed him. It was too much for him to take.

[Craig]

Yeah. Jesus.

[Wayne]

Names like a wife and a kid. Jesus Christ. Wake me up. Never.

[Craig]

I got a tea time.

[Wayne]

Off. We're. Dude, being so mean to your dad.

[Craig]

Well, you'll find out.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Keep going.

[Wayne]

All right.

[Craig]

So she asked me what the feelings were when dad was around.

[Wayne]

Mm.

[Craig]

And it was honestly exciting because he was. When I started talking about my father in therapy, this is a big revelation for me. I started talking about how cool my dad was, and that's why it was so exciting, because he kind of set his own rules. He dressed funky, you know, always like, velvet shirts and, like, you know, like the 70s cab driver hats and, like, very jazz. My dad was very jazz.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Six one, slender but broad, you know, mustache, like, very jazz.

[Wayne]

Completely bald on top, but very confident still.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Hung out with all black dudes.

[Wayne]

Your dad was the blackest white dude I've ever seen.

[Craig]

His nickname was Julio. Like, my dad was jazz.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The coolest. And I started unpacking that in therapy, and she was, like, listening. And then I. What I eventually came around to was not feeling like I was ever enough for my father. I wasn't cool enough to hang out with my dad. We didn't share a lot of interest. You know, he was into golf and boxing and things like that, and I could give a. About any of that. I used to pretend to like boxing for him. You know, he'd want to, like, shadow box me and stuff in the kitchen, and I. You know.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

The opposite of who I am. I'm like, oh, yeah. You know? Yeah. And just feeling not. Not cool enough for my dad to like me. Followed up by the immediate revelation of I shouldn't have to be cool enough for my dad to like me. My dad should just fucking like me. He's my dad.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I'm literally screaming in therapy. He's my fucking dad. He should just love me. And my therapist is like.

[Wayne]

Are you taking maka yet?

[Craig]

I. I am, and it's pretty cool.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I'm only on day three.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Which one are you taking? You on the black. Yeah, I do the black too. I do the black and I do the tri blend.

[Craig]

Oh, you do two.

[Wayne]

I do two. Okay. Technically three, because the blend is a blend of three. Okay, well, so if you don't know about maca, it is a root native to Peru. It grows in three colors. Black, red, and yellow. Or yellow. Or yellow. Yellow or yellow. I take the black and I take the tri blend. My girl takes the red, and you take the black.

[Craig]

I do.

[Wayne]

Typically, yeah. Men take the black, women take the red, and then you intersperse the triple end. But it has a lot of benefits. I've been taking it daily for a little over a year. I have noticed a lot mood, skin, hair, energy, if you heard testosterone, you know, libido.

[Craig]

I've had a lot of improvements. Yeah.

[Wayne]

All true. And we get. Well, I get our. I get my maca. And I have been from a company called the maca team. They are the biggest supplier of genuine maca from Peru, the biggest supplier in America. And they are nice enough to partner with partner with us and give a discount code. If you want to try out Maca, you can go to the Maca team.com secondhand therapy and you can use code bear cub for 10 off. Oh fancy. So yeah, if you want to try some maca, try it out dudes. Try the black ladies. Try the red or try the try. But at least go to the website, read about it, see if you might want to do it. It's not pharmaceutical. It's all natural. I've been taking it for over a year. I like it. You're three days in, you're less annoying. So we did it.

[Craig]

We did it.

[Wayne]

The moca team.com secondhand therapy. Check it out.

[Craig]

Hey, if you're tired of hearing these ads, which I'm sure you are, you should head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to episodes. You could be hearing this a week early along with accent along with access to a an entirely different podcast. Some would say a better one called the other shit show.

[Wayne]

It is fun.

[Craig]

It's non therapy related.

[Wayne]

It is fun.

[Craig]

Super fun. Plus you have, you have early access to my new podcast series Happy not funny and it's ad free episodes on that as well. Merch discounts. Also fun live show things where we interact with the audience.

[Wayne]

Live streams is what he's trying to say.

[Craig]

We are not going on tour. Yeah, that's true. What did I say?

[Wayne]

You said live shows.

[Craig]

Well, same same. You know, it's like a live show. Nope, it's like a zoom.

[Wayne]

Okay.

[Craig]

Anyways, you'll have access to us in a more intimate manner.

[Wayne]

Intimate.

[Craig]

How about that?

[Wayne]

Intimate. There's no end.

[Craig]

Yeah, like the candidate, like the candies.

[Wayne]

Intimate.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Also if you sign up, you get a little treat.

[Craig]

Oh yeah.

[Wayne]

So check out the different tiers. One of the tiers is just if you're just here for second hand therapy, you want no ads, we'll send you a dope little sticker. And I'm gonna be honest with you, a lot of time went into designing this sticker. Yeah, too much. You can argue too much dope sticker though. So excited for that tier, we'll send you a sticker. The next tier. If you want the other podcast, if you want the bonus stuff from secondhand therapy, all the little extras, you get the sticker and we're going to send you a signed print designed by yours truly. That took way too much time. Still way too much time. We'll sign it, we'll send it out to you and then we have the top tier with the live streams. If you want to hang out with us a couple times a month, you get the sticker, the print, and we'll send you a T shirt that we are not selling or getting anywhere else. So check out Patreon. If you sign up, you get some treats, and it's a good way to support the podcast.

[Craig]

We'll see you over there.

[Wayne]

Thanks.

[Craig]

And I still struggle with the empathy that we talked about a few weeks ago with seeing my father and the addiction and things like that, where I want to be mad at him. I want to be like, why couldn't you just fucking love me? Why couldn't you just be a fucking dad and just. Just. And that's it. Just be a fucking dad. And then you think about the addiction and those things, and. And you wonder. You wonder what the capacity is for that. And then you go, fuck, I can't. I can't be mad at you. Maybe you don't know any better. Maybe you didn't. Maybe you weren't capable of that. Again, that addiction's a motherfucker. And so I'm still torn on this idea of. Being stuck. In the unresolvable because he's gone. So I can't talk to him now. I can't fucking. I can't do anything about it. There's no other information. I'm just stuck in this in between of, why couldn't you be my fucking dad? And I'm so sorry you couldn't be my fucking dad. I'm sorry you weren't capable of that.

[Wayne]

I'm gonna challenge you.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

It sounds like you're trying to give him an out. Because it sounds like even before the truck accident and him getting over prescribed pills and all that, he still wasn't really around. Is that wrong?

[Craig]

He was when I was young and he was for his other children.

[Wayne]

So when you say he was when you were young, are those your memories, or is that what you were told?

[Craig]

I mean, I have a scrapbook full of photos of my father from when I'm five or six. From, like zero to six. He's in almost every photo, and we're playing, and he's building, you know, little toys and playhouses and. And we're golfing and we're wearing matching outfits, and we're, you know, we're doing all that stuff. And he was a great father. I've talked to my. My sister Heather, my half sister Heather about it, and he was a great father to her and her sister and my half brother and he was great for them. We. It's such a weird thing. It's the same man, but two different lives for us.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

So when we talk about dad, it's. I mean, this therapy session. Me up so much. I called my sister afterwards.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Hey, how are you? Yeah, you know, we. And she had. She brought up a picture that I posted of dad on Facebook for, I think, around Thanksgiving or something like that. And it's dad and a pair of, like, short shorts in the 80s, and he's feeding some. Some ducks. And she's like, that picture of dad you posted, and he's wearing shorts. Like, I've never seen him wear shorts. And in my head, I'm like, dad always wore your little short shorts around and shit like that. And she's like, oh, dad always wore pants. It's the same man, two different lives, even in little things like that.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Is it. Is it possible you want to put so much empathy into the addiction side of it because that gives him an out, and then you can convince yourself that it wasn't you or your mom that was the pills?

[Craig]

No, I think I really am just looking at the reality of it because obviously, I think the world of my mother.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And so I wouldn't. Yeah, I. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's just actually taking stock in the reality of. Because I have. Here's what I'm saying, because I've. I've. I've let off the gas a little bit on the pills because I used to write my dad off as just being like, oh, he's. He was a drunk or he was a junkie. Yeah. No, cool. And now I'm like, oh, wait a minute. And so I've let off the gas a little, so it's not. I'm not writing that off as an excuse. I would have. That would have made more sense if I was still, like, full steam ahead about being like, yeah, my dad was a fucking junkie, so of course it was the pills. My therapist did say something interesting, though. She said, you know, we're talking about not being enough for my father when I was young, and even now I feel that way. I'm like, am I cool enough to hang out with my dad now? I don't think so. Which is a weird thought.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Who gives a. Like, how are you not cool enough to hang out? Whatever, dude. I don't get it.

[Craig]

Listen. So she says. She goes. I said, yeah, but, you know, he was my dad. Like, why. He should just want that, you know? And she goes, yeah. She goes, was There anybody around that would have said that to you, would have reassured you when you were young? Yeah, I go, sure, there's a lot of people around that should have said that or could have said that, but nobody did say that. And especially after my father was dead, you don't talk ill about your father and you don't talk ill about the dead. And so he just became kind of like this untouchable figure. And so she, and she goes, I'm not trying to ask you to tell this to yourself now, to your younger self now. And she goes, I'm just saying this in general. Like if there was a random 10 year old boy who is telling you what you're telling yourself right now, that you know they don't feel cool enough to hang out with their dad, what would you say to them? I was like, oh my God, that's heartbreaking. I would tell them that they are more than enough and that they are awesome and loved and all these things. And I would want to talk to the fucking dad and be like, hey man, you need to change some shit around. Your kid thinks you fucking hate him. Like, what's going on here? You know? But yeah.

[Wayne]

Do you know that if anybody ever had a talk with your dad about.

[Craig]

Getting it together with you, I would imagine.

[Wayne]

Never confirmed.

[Craig]

No. No. Because again, you just don't. I think it goes into making people uncomfortable and all those things. And what I would, you know, mom would never tell me really the truth about my father. And nobody in the family was really allowed to speak about him again, especially after he died. Except for Wayne, my stepfather. When he came into the picture, he did not like my father. Yeah, him, my mother and my father all worked at the same factory in town. So Wayne knew them, knew him pretty well and did not like him.

[Wayne]

And.

[Craig]

But Wayne even then would never like speak ill of him. But whenever his name was brought up and stuff, his body language would change and he would get real quiet and real kind of like, you know. Yeah, just not pouty but like stubborn, you know?

[Wayne]

This fucking guy again. Yeah, Just.

[Craig]

Yeah, your dad, you know, like talking through his teeth and.

[Wayne]

Because he knew the truth.

[Craig]

Yeah, he knew who my father was. And he waited a year to approach my mother after my father died and said, hey, you know, listen, I've liked you for a long time. I didn't like the way that Craig treated you.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I'd like to show you a little better life. Wayne was such a good dude.

[Wayne]

Yeah, Wayne was dope.

[Craig]

And we started talking about. We started talking About Wayne and how he was this father figure that I never had and he had all this love for me and all these things, which I appreciated, but there was always, like this block up that he wasn't my father. And not that it didn't matter, but it didn't matter as much. And so we unlocked this idea of. I remember screaming this in therapy when I found this out, but I was like, all of these years I have been chasing title and power versus character and merit. And this boils down to this idea I'm always talking about on here, about this. These thoughts of, like, is it. Is it family man or rock star that I want to be? And the struggles that I've had of, like, you know, whatever. And my therapist, like, let me rant for a few. And she goes, your struggles between being Craig or Wayne. And I just started fucking crying.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I'm like, God damn it. She's like, yeah. I go, yeah. My father, it matters more because he has title and power. Wayne had merit and character and didn't matter as much because I wasn't seeking that validation.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

I already had the love from Wayne. Wayne was so proud of me. Wayne would brag about me all the time. He was so involved in everything I was doing. He would hang out with my friends and joke around with them and he would try to teach me things and. Yeah. And my father could give a. But it just didn't matter because Wayne didn't have the power and title that my father had.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Well. Yeah. So the validation that I've been seeking that I thought was overcompensating for my mother's love.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Turns out it's all about dad. Which brings me back around to how you gonna have daddy issues when you ain't even got a dad?

[Wayne]

Well, that's how.

[Craig]

Fuck.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Craig]

How was your therapy?

[Wayne]

Hold on. I'm not done with you.

[Craig]

Okay. Oh, fuck. Here we go. Let me hear it.

[Wayne]

So now that you have all this information. Yeah. Is it Rockstar Family Man?

[Craig]

I'm definitely changing my views on a lot of things and try. And we had a conversation a couple weeks ago off air that was really eye opening, too, about being more grateful and being happy with what I have and stop chasing all this emptiness, this validation that's hard to turn off, that's hard to switch lanes.

[Wayne]

Is it?

[Craig]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Wayne]

It seems like it'd be so easy.

[Craig]

Well, because it's dangerous, I feel like. Because if you overcorrect, then you end up being, like, barefoot and living in Utah on, like, Like a tree house. And you're like, I don't need anything. And you're like, you need something. You need shoes. Yeah. Put some shoes on.

[Wayne]

Soap. How about soap?

[Craig]

I make my own deodorant now. You're like, well, you shouldn't.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Well, you smell like shit.

[Craig]

Yeah. So I think it's a dangerous thing when you're like, I just let go.

[Wayne]

Of all of it.

[Craig]

And you're like, yeah, keep some of it.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

You know, but I am taking inventory and trying to be more honest in what matters and what is valuable in the chase and what's not.

[Wayne]

You talking about professionally or personally or both?

[Craig]

Both.

[Wayne]

Both, Man.

[Craig]

Yeah, man.

[Wayne]

Yeah. I would love for it to be enough for you one day.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

No matter what you get, it's never enough. It's always about what you didn't get. Yeah.

[Craig]

I'm very spoiled. I'm spoiler boy.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Only child, spoiled little boy.

[Wayne]

You're four year old grown man now, but.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Dude.

[Craig]

What you got?

[Wayne]

I got nothing compared to that.

[Craig]

You're like, my life's great.

[Wayne]

Yeah. I really. Dude, I actually did have a moment the other day about how great my life is.

[Craig]

Is. Yeah.

[Wayne]

Yeah. And I am trying to be more great, more aware of how good things are and just being more grateful.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it?

[Craig]

Oh my God.

[Wayne]

Are you?

[Craig]

Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybody else. Sure.

[Wayne]

Okay. Alright. Well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone.

[Craig]

Okay? Okay.

[Wayne]

It's called the light phone.

[Craig]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[Wayne]

The light. Yeah, you've seen me use it. The light phone. Also known some people call it a dumb phone.

[Craig]

Mmm.

[Wayne]

Anyway, it's a smartphone, it has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation, it has a calendar and a flashlight.

[Craig]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[Wayne]

Kinda.

[Craig]

Oh yeah, I love that.

[Wayne]

It has a pretty cool camera too. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got a dope camera on it. It's got a camera. Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough, they sent us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone 3 use code, secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[Craig]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[Wayne]

Stop Your doom scrolling. Be more present in life Link down below promo code. Secondhand therapy. All lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world because I do have a really good life. I don't feel great all the time.

[Craig]

What do you mean? What does that look like?

[Wayne]

I mean it just have a great life, dude. Like, this is. This is what I do for work. And, like, I have no debt. I have food in the fridge. I have a place to live, car's paid off. I have gas in my car. I don't answer anybody, you know, But sometimes I still get really sad and so even though, you know, I can. I can look at my life and understand how great it is. Like, it just. I just. It just feels bad sometimes still. And I don't know, it might not be a real thing, but, like, maybe if I can practice, you know, more gratitude for like, everything I have, everything I just said is like, I've built for myself.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

If I could just be more aware and outwardly. Or as you would, as you would argue, inwardly grateful. I don't know, maybe those, like, those darker down moments would be little farther apart. Fewer far and few between.

[Craig]

What are those darker moments rooted in? Is it. Fuck, dude.

[Wayne]

I don't know. Probably some of the same shit you're talking about. Just wanting more, even though I don't need it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

You know, I think, man.

[Craig]

Do you deal with survivor's guilt at all?

[Wayne]

Where the did that come from? Jesus.

[Craig]

Yeah, it's my turn to sucker punch you.

[Wayne]

I didn't even sucker punch you tonight.

[Craig]

Not tonight.

[Wayne]

I did.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Yeah, I did. For a long time.

[Craig]

Not.

[Wayne]

Not in that. And I think the term survivor's guilt kind of implies that, like, we both could have died and I survived. But that's like the survivor's guilt that we're referring to is like more like a widower that I just. I could have saved her. I could have done something or. Or just I could have done things differently and it would have had a different outcome and.

[Craig]

Yeah. Or just being here. Not.

[Wayne]

Yeah, I did for a long time.

[Craig]

I have. So I had some of that with obviously mom and things like that, or Wayne, especially when I was spending time with mom, it was like, I'm here and he's not.

[Wayne]

What the.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

But that was for your mom, right?

[Craig]

Yeah. And that could be as simple as that. It doesn't always have to be like, I could have have done X, Y and Z to ch. Maybe things will be different. It's just like, oh, yeah.

[Wayne]

Mine was more Rooted in I could have or should have done, you know, blah, blah, blah. Could have been there, could have not. Whatever I did for a while. But I think I've. I'm at a place now where I'm like, damn, bro, all that shit's out of my control. Like, yeah, accidents happen. People do stupid things, and, you know, it's out of your control. Why do you ask?

[Craig]

I was just wanting. I was wondering where the root of the sadness is. If you. Because you were getting on me so much about wanting more and busting my balls about it, and then to hear you talk about how this isn't enough, and I was like, oh, if it's not. If he's not rooted in the same things that I am, then what else could it be?

[Wayne]

Well, I think it. It is rude in the same. Because that's just. That's just the society we've subscribed to. We've been programmed our whole lives to constantly chase. And it's got to be the big house, it's got to be the nice car, it's got to be money, money, money. And that's just. That's not it.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

And it's like, you say it's hard to. This kind of goes back to what we were talking about before. Like, I know in, like, my logical brain, I'm like, yeah, it's all like, my life's great. I do whatever I want all the time. But sometimes you scroll your phone and you see other podcasts are doing these kinds of numbers, and, dude, this guy drives this kind of car. And. And, you know, you just. It's just so hard when we're constantly fed bigger and better and you. It's. It's. It's hard to not compare yourself sometimes. Yeah. No one's immune to that. I'm not. Even though consciously. I know, like, you're not comparing to a real thing.

[Craig]

Right.

[Wayne]

Like, so it doesn't matter. But, yeah, you know, I'm still programmed that way, so I think it's still. It still rears its head on me.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

But.

[Wayne]

Yeah, like you said when you mentioned gratitude, I've been. I had a moment the other day of just like, dude, my life's dope, as I should be more. More grateful. A little more consistent with expressing. For your attitude for that.

[Craig]

Yeah. Did you start edmr? Is that. Is that what it.

[Wayne]

Emdr.

[Craig]

Emdr.

[Wayne]

No, we did a. A little more prep this week. We're gonna. I'm having my first go at it next week.

[Craig]

Oh, yeah. Are you nervous?

[Wayne]

Yeah, we're not. We're not gonna start, like heavier stuff, like trauma, trauma, trauma, but, like, we're gonna start with body image stuff. So all this week, we were talking about times in my life or we were talking about when, like, why do I not like how I look? Or why do I not like my body? And when do I not like my body? And I'm like, oh, just whenever I see my reflection anywhere.

[Craig]

Just when my eyes are open.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Just when I see my reflection. She goes, oh, what do you. What do you think? And I go, oh, I'm a fat. I'm disgusting. I'm a disgusting fat. And she. She traces the back. She's like, okay, and. And let's say that were true, that you were disgusting fat fuck. What would that mean? I was like, well, I guess that would mean that I'm undisciplined and.

[Craig]

Lazy.

[Wayne]

And I just don't care about anything. She goes, okay, and if those are true, what does that mean about you? I was like, I guess that I'm worthless. He goes, and there it is. She goes, you think because of the way you look, you're worthless?

[Craig]

And I was like, she's the world's greatest detective.

[Wayne]

This bitch is bad.

[Craig]

Cool.

[Wayne]

Speaking of breadcrumbs, I love carbs. Yeah. So she traced it back like that. If that were true, what would that mean? If that were true, what would that mean? Yeah. So evidently, because of the way I look, I deep down think I'm worthless. Because.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Yeah. So we're gonna be. And then we. I'm not gonna talk about it on here, but we talked about like. Like key memories that stick out from when I was young, when, you know, somebody said something to me or did something that made me feel really bad. I'm not sharing those on here.

[Craig]

What I'm over here talking about. Yeah. Daddy wasn't there, and you're like, I can't share when people.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Were mean to me.

[Wayne]

Yeah. It's hard for me to talk about, man.

[Craig]

I. I'm not even affected by it.

[Wayne]

I'm not even kidding you. I almost did. I almost told her. I couldn't think of any. I almost lied to her, buddy. Yeah. I don't know why it's so humiliate. It's just so hard for me to talk about in one. Because I. Again, logical brain. I know how stupid it is.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

It's a 10 year old saying something to another 10 year old. Yeah. And I'm sitting here at 35, being like, that really hurt. Like my Logical brain knows it's not a big deal, but it hurts to even, like, talk about it. Yeah. So I have, you know, a mismatched. My nervous system is mismatched again. So, yeah, I'm not gonna say I'm on here, but talked about those. And then we did some tests with the eye movement, and of course, I was focusing on doing it right the whole time instead of actually being in the moment.

[Craig]

So what is the eye. What does that have to do with. Because I'm. I'm confused about it. What does the eye movement have with. To do. Do with these trauma responses or.

[Wayne]

It's the way she explained it is it's a way to keep you present in the room. So you basically, you want your eyes to go, like, as far as you can. So, like, for here, I would look at, like, that plant behind you.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

And then let me look straight. So I would probably go to the light switch behind you. And then over here, like the edge of the lampshade. And then you go back and forth, and then you do the therapy. But it's a way to keep you present in the room. So you're not, like, reliving the traumas. Oh. You know, you're going through them. Your brain can reprogram and, like, process them as you are now, but it keeps you in the room so you're not going back reliving it. Wow. That's the way she explained or. That's the way I understood what she was saying. She's. It's a way to keep you present in the room. Yeah, but it's also. You do that. It lets your brain, like, do things.

[Craig]

Dude, the body is so.

[Wayne]

The body's crazy, man.

[Craig]

And also, who discovered that? Hey, you know what I mean?

[Wayne]

Body's unreal.

[Craig]

Body's unreal, Right?

[Wayne]

Do we need mercy says body's unreal. Hey, body's unreal.

[Craig]

Body's unreal. I can't believe that, man.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Nervous.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

So hopefully, ideally next week, maybe in the next couple weeks, I won't hate my body anymore. Or maybe I'll hate it a little less.

[Craig]

Are you excited about that at least?

[Wayne]

If it works. Be dope. I don't even give. I even told her. She's like, you know, when you look in the mirror, like, what would you like to feel or think? And I was like, it just. Indifference would be great. She's like, oh, so you just. Even body neutrality would be good. I'd be like, I would love it. I don't even need to be body positive. I don't need to love my body. I could just. I want to look at it and be like, there it is. And then get on with my fucking day. That'd be great. We'll see.

[Craig]

I love the idea of. Yep, there it is.

[Wayne]

Yeah. How great would that be to see yourself with your shirt off and be like, yeah, there it is. And then put a shirt on and get on with your day and not think about it again? God, I see my body in the mirror. Put a shirt on, and anytime I walk by window, I'm like.

[Craig]

Yeah, yeah.

[Wayne]

Like, this shirt doesn't fit the way I want it to. God damn it.

[Craig]

You know I have those big mirrors in my bedroom in the closet.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

And I still will turn the opposite way of the mirrors when I'm getting dressed.

[Wayne]

Yeah.

[Craig]

Yeah. Or if I'm in the shift, I'm coming out of the shower and stuff.

[Wayne]

Mm.

[Craig]

I won't look in the mirror.

[Wayne]

Yeah, I get it. I get it. So, yeah, next time you get on with your dad, I'm gonna go. So if that was true, what would that mean about you? Yeah, if that was true, what would that mean, buddy? That's wild, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That the way I look means I'm worthless.

[Craig]

Makes two of us. Hey, table for two.

[Wayne]

Table for two.

[Craig]

Make sure it's a big table.

[Wayne]

Start with the dessert menu.

[Craig]

Would you put us close to the.

[Wayne]

Yeah. Is this a buffet?

[Craig]

Let us go to the kitchen.

[Wayne]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, man. Shit sucks, dude. Therapy sucks, you know?

[Craig]

Yeah, a lot of times.

[Wayne]

Yeah. But where the fuck would we be without it, you know?

[Craig]

Oh, God. Happier maybe. Every week. I'm, like, crying. I'm like, why am I doing this?

[Wayne]

So we would just be living the ignorance as bliss, constantly repressing every thing that comes up. I don't know, man. I look at where I am now compared to a few years ago, and, like, it's not even close. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like life. Like, days go slow, but years go fast. It's like, man, a day in therapy is a fucking. It's a brutal experience, but when you look at, like, the collective.

[Craig]

Yeah.

[Wayne]

Like, you can actually see the difference.

[Craig]

Yeah. My therapy hours are in dog years.

[Wayne]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Craig]

She hit me with a phrase that I've heard before, but I didn't realize what it was this week. All right, this is a phrase of the week.

[Wayne]

All right.

[Craig]

Magical thinking.

[Wayne]

That sounds dumb. What is it?

[Craig]

It's where.

[Wayne]

All right, Dumbledore, hit me.

[Craig]

It's the idea of that kind of like, Greater and thinking. Greater than thinking of, like, you could have done something to change that outcome. So it's like, all the responsibility is on you. So we were talking about if I was cool enough, you know, for my father to like me. Yeah, that's magical thinking. It has nothing to do with me. It had everything to do with my father and his way that he was and his lifestyle.

[Wayne]

Why is it called magical thinking? I don't get it.

[Craig]

Because it's. It's like magic. If I would have done something, boom, it would have changed. Like, no, it wouldn't have. Like, that's not on you. You couldn't have done anything to change it. It's not some kind of magic trick that you could have pulled and been like.

[Wayne]

Sounds like a different word for idealism a little bit.

[Craig]

But idealism is more about the admiration of something. And this is more of like, if I would have done, I. I could have changed. It is is more magical thinking where you thinking you have the power to make a situation different. And it's like, when it has nothing to do with you. So, like, yeah, again, like, if I was just cooler, my dad would have loved me. Hey, man, if your dad was cooler, he would have loved you. Oh.

[Wayne]

Yeah, Your dad couldn't got any cooler. This is smoothest motherfucker. Never met him. Just from a picture, I'm like, that's a cool dude. That is a cool motherfucker.

[Craig]

I had this thought. The things that made my father awesome made my father terrible.

[Wayne]

Duh. And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.