Failing Is Not Okay | #097

Summary

Secondhand Therapy – "Failing Is Not Okay" | Episode #097

Date: September 1, 2025
Host: PonyBear Studios
Co-hosts: Louie Paoletti (“Mike”), Michael Malone (“Grayson”), and Ken

Overview

This episode of Secondhand Therapy dives headfirst into the messy, relatable process of embracing failure, learning self-accountability, and the tricky emotional landscape around vulnerability and validation. With a blend of trademark humor, self-deprecation, and candid storytelling, the hosts process recent setbacks in hobbies, unpick the embarrassment of not "figuring it out," and dissect household friction over something as simple as unloading a dishwasher. The conversation unpacks ADHD, masculinity, the importance of honesty, and what it means to show up emotionally for yourself and others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Reluctance to Embrace Failure

• Grayson's failed attempts at new hobbies: pottery, bread making, and drawing.
• The pattern: Trying something new, not succeeding immediately, feeling frustrated, labeling it as not "for me," and giving up.
• Quote:
  • “I'm not good at accepting failure. Trying again, because I think it goes, for me, into embarrassment.” (16:41, Grayson)
• Discussion of how, especially with ADHD, there’s an expectation to quickly excel, and when that doesn’t happen, the default is shame or avoidance.
• Mike: “Failure is embarrassing.” (16:44, Mike)

2. The Language of Self-Talk and "Figuring It Out"

• Dissecting how Grayson internalizes mistakes as not being able to "figure it out," which he recognizes as harsh self-talk rooted in fear of being seen as incompetent or “too dumb.”
• Quote:
  • “Why is it always, ‘figure it out’ or ‘he couldn't figure it out’? ...It just sounds like you’re too dumb to figure it out.” (19:06, Mike)
• Mike challenges both self and co-hosts on the language used—how words like "couldn’t figure it out" shape shame and self-perception.

3. Validation-Seeking vs. Self-Reliance

• Grayson's tendency to verbally process decisions (even minor ones) and seek validation—learning to separate low-risk (small daily) versus high-risk (urgent, personal safety) check-ins.
• Quote:
  • “I’m trying not to really process and I'm trying to really cut down on asking so many questions or... seeking out that kind of verbal processing.” (26:53, Grayson)
• Exploring how much of this is about “help” versus needing honest validation, and the challenge in trusting personal judgment.

4. Experimenting with Independence

• Grayson’s "breakup bucket list": Trying new things (nose piercing), and intentionally not asking for input or approval—testing boundaries between old patterns of validation and new self-trust.
• Quote:
  • “I didn’t call anybody. I didn't check in. I didn't post about it. ...It was just trying to do my homework and it was like a thing where I was like, well, this is a low risk thing. ...I won it. I did it.” (33:34, Grayson)

5. Catastrophizing & Anxiety

• Recognizing how anxiety can take a low-risk choice (like getting a nose piercing) and spiral it into regret or panic, leading to ruminating or “checking in” with others to stave off uncertainty.
• “I definitely went down that rabbit hole. Even after I got it pierced... I kept wanting to like, yeah... I should just take this out.” (35:22, Grayson)

6. Household Routines & Codependency

• A surprisingly deep dive into chores and codependence emerges from a simple irritation: whose job is it to unload the dishwasher?
• The “Do the dishes” parable (story attributed to Ken) explores the theme: If something bothers you, maybe it’s your job, instead of waiting for others to change.
• Quote:
  • “It’s your need; it’s not hers. So do the dishes because they’re not on her radar. They’re on yours.” (40:57, Ken via Grayson)

7. The Slippery Slope from Context to Excuse

• Mike’s aversion to “context” explanations, which sometimes register as excuses rather than accountability.
• Quote:
  • “Sometimes context to me reads as an excuse.” (56:22, Mike)
• Discussion: When is context helpful for understanding, and when does it become a way to dodge responsibility?
• Mike’s assertion: At the end of the day, he values honest, upfront accountability over explanations, which he sometimes feels are a smokescreen.

8. ADHD, RSD (Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria), and Emotional Spirals

• Grayson's honest processing of how a minor critique (“you never do the dishes”) sparks doubts about his worth as a roommate or friend—hallmarks of RSD and ADHD thinking.
• The uncomfortable truth of how even indirect feedback can trigger shame spirals.

9. Honesty & Vulnerability

• Both hosts agree: raw honesty is uncomfortable but necessary for emotional growth.
• Mike openly names his own “lazy” avoidance around healthy habits, modeling the vulnerability they both strive for.
• Quote:
  • “Honesty is vulnerable and it's hard. It was very uncomfortable for me to tell you, oh, I'm being lazy. That sucks. That sucks to one say out loud. It’s an admission.” (62:06, Mike)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Through the mist of context, I'm sure there is the monster of honesty hiding in there.”
  (01:50, Grayson; revisited at 61:00 and 61:53)
• “The three hobbies: fail, fail, fail.”
  (14:21, Grayson)
• “Have you tried masturbation, buddy?” — “Nailing it. I’m a pro.”
  (14:25–14:28, Mike & Grayson, with classic levity)
• “It’s hard to find a hobby.”
  (12:15, Grayson)
• “Why is it always ‘figure it out’...I have a theory but I’d like to hear why.”
  (18:39, Mike, drilling into identity and capability)
• “If you don’t leave a five-star review, then step two would be: go fuck yourself.”
  (02:20, Mike, with deadpan humor)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Failure & ADHD patterns: 09:24–16:44
• Shame and "figure it out": 16:41–19:13
• Seeking validation vs. self-trust: 24:27–26:53
• Nose piercing and independence: 32:20–35:03
• Household codependence ("Do the dishes" parable): 39:41–41:08
• Context vs. accountability (dishwasher story): 45:05–56:22
• Honest admission about laziness & self-talk: 60:00–62:43
• Wrap on honesty, language, and emotional growth: 61:00–63:35

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Tone & Style

Warm, irreverent, self-deprecating, and emotionally raw.
The hosts fluidly mix humor with diatribes about mental health, personal anecdotes, and mutual ribbing while always circling back to deeper self-awareness.

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For Listeners Who Haven’t Tuned In

This episode offers a deep and hilarious look at the shame of failure, perfectionism, the struggle for self-acceptance, and the difficulty in communicating honestly with yourself and others. You’ll laugh, you’ll cringe, and you’ll walk away with a few new ways to view your own “failures”—and why sometimes, just doing the damn dishes makes all the difference.

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Further Resources

• [Patreon for bonus/extended episodes]
• [Secondhand Therapy Merchandise (including tie-dye tees and "Vasectomy Farms" shirts)]
• [Contact details in episode description]

---

Transcript

[Mike]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. Jesus.

[Grayson]

That's a bear.

[Mike]

It's not. Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And, you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.

[Ken]

Right.

[Mike]

If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use Better Help recently?

[Grayson]

Yes, I have. I just signed up.

[Mike]

How'd it go?

[Grayson]

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch like a. There's like two or three pages of people that I got to choose from and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago.

[Mike]

Nice. Have you used their journal feature?

[Grayson]

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.

[Mike]

Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know, you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just. It's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better Help's a good option. And they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys. If you're listening and you want to start with BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Getting therapy, you know, it's great.

[Grayson]

Check it out. No, I think you're onto something there. I think through the mist of context, I'm sure there is the monster of honesty hiding in there.

[Mike]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy. We need to remind you that we are not therapists. That's right. We are not experts.

[Grayson]

Nope.

[Mike]

This is not a substitute for therapy. This is not professional advice in any way. Repeat it back to me.

[Grayson]

This is not.

[Ken]

Yep.

[Grayson]

Advice it up.

[Mike]

One word in. Couldn't get it. Thank you for being here. Wherever you're listening to this, you know, Add us. Sub subscribe Add Share the episode Share the episode Leave a comment Leave us a five star review. If you do not leave a five star review, then step two would be go yourself. Because step one is leave a five star review. If you don't leave a step two, go yourself. If you forgot, go yourself. Now you're gonna hear some ads.

[Grayson]

So Many ads.

[Mike]

Hopefully a lot, to be honest.

[Grayson]

I mean, we're hoping there's. It's just jam. We're hoping it's mostly ads.

[Mike]

It will be Ford motors. It's gonna be like that bitch.

[Grayson]

Out of nowhere, out of nowhere.

[Mike]

Mazda, you know, Go to Patreon. You gotta add free episodes over there. Got early episodes over there. It's very modestly priced. Okay. Should we mark it up?

[Grayson]

Yes.

[Mike]

Are we gonna. Not yet.

[Grayson]

There's a whole nother podcast over there too with over 40 episodes streaming and waiting for you to just go and listen and binge.

[Ken]

Yeah, go.

[Mike]

Check us out patreon.com secondhand therapy pod. There's a bunch of good stuff over there. Bunch of tears. See what you like. Pick one. It's a great way to support the podcast. We also have merch available. Secondhand therapy pod.com. we got some tie dye teas for the summer which are doing well. People like the tie dye.

[Grayson]

They're very comfy.

[Mike]

They're a great school. I do too. As I do. What else do we got? We finally dropped the Tell papa was it mama and Tell Mama was it papa. T shirts are out. There's a light color and a black one because whatever we do you, we don't have the other. So we're just doing both now. Vasectomy farms is still up. Portion of that going to women's reproductive resources.

[Grayson]

You know, I wore my vasectomy farm shirt to the gym the other day and I got seven people stop me and say, love the shirt.

[Mike]

Nice.

[Grayson]

So get a Vasectomy farm shirt. It's for a good cause. And when you wear it out in public, people are going to stop you and be like, yo, rad.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And they said, grayson, then would you say.

[Grayson]

I said, thank you so much.

[Mike]

Anything else?

[Grayson]

I said, it's my boyfriend's.

[Mike]

Perfect. That's why we need you to go to Patreon. We have the worst salesman alive employed here. Merch Patreon. If you want to contact us, that is in the description below the episode. Write us in. We got a couple postcards recently. Very nice. I got an update I'm gonna share with you. She didn't. I didn't ask if I could share it on the pod. Okay, I'll share it with you.

[Ken]

Okay.

[Mike]

Yeah, here's some people. Text, email, whatever. We're here. Thanks for being here. Leave a five star review or not go yourself. Here's episode 97.

[Grayson]

Bye.

[Mike]

Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Grayson]

And welcome back Secondhand therapy.

[Mike]

And we know that.

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[Mike]

She sent in a DM and yeah.

[Grayson]

She's so happy to hear that, man.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Made. Made some big changes and on a new path.

[Grayson]

Good for her.

[Mike]

It's pretty dope, right?

[Grayson]

Good for. I'm so happy, dude.

[Mike]

Yeah, she seems excited.

[Grayson]

Ah, man, that's great.

[Mike]

I like people writing with their updates.

[Grayson]

It's nice. Yeah, it is nice.

[Ken]

Yeah. Good for her.

[Mike]

All right. What are you.

[Grayson]

What are we doing? Hey, what are we doing? Well, I had a. You know, I had a. A week off from therapy. My therapist was on vacation when you.

[Mike]

Need it the most. And.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And mentally, I was also checked out, so we were both on vacation, you know, and so we caught up, and I was like, I have so much to tell you.

[Mike]

Had you told him about the breakup yet?

[Ken]

Yes.

[Mike]

Okay. So he knew that.

[Grayson]

He knew that.

[Mike]

All right.

[Grayson]

And then I think we left off with me making, like, my little to do list chart, you know, grade. Grade card thing. My little progress sheet to do list.

[Mike]

Chart, grade card thing.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Nope.

[Grayson]

I showed you the thing.

[Mike]

The checklist.

[Grayson]

The check. Yeah, it's. Got it. It's a lot of things for me. It's all those things.

[Ken]

Yep.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

So that's where him and I left off. And then he gave me homework. He gave me two things, which I did both.

[Mike]

You love two things.

[Grayson]

I do love two things.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

I don't think he knows that about me yet.

[Mike]

He will.

[Grayson]

He sure will. One of the things we talked about on show already, but I want to revisit it in a different way.

[Mike]

Okay. Because show Is on Patreon. That's the other podcast.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

If you didn't know, if you're missing out, there's over 40 episodes just waiting for you.

[Mike]

The other show.

[Grayson]

So sht.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Because Second Hand Therapy. The other. Second Hand Therapy show. The other show. I thought of that. Anyways, it's on Patreon. Only on Patreon.

[Grayson]

Just put an ad right here.

[Mike]

Anyways, Patreon. Okay, good.

[Grayson]

So I. Someone's like, I got so many updates for you. I said one of the things that we were talking about when we left off was he was. I was talking about, like, how I've been wanting to try pottery and how, you know, I've been dragging my feet on. It's something I've always wanted to do. And he's like, well, what's. What's stopping you?

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And I was like, I don't know. And he goes. He goes, well, here's your homework. I need you to sign up for pottery class. And I was like, okay. And so I did. And I went. And it didn't go that great for me. I was frustrated and I didn't. I don't know. It just took me a while. I wasn't good at it right away, and I took it as a loss.

[Mike]

Or at all.

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike]

Or at all.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

But, you know, next time you might be good.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

If you want the full story, head on over to Patreon, listen to the shit show. But I'm just gonna sum up. So didn't. It didn't. I was frustrated, and I walked away from it being like, you know what? Fuck that. And pottery's not for me. And it was something that I had always thought it was for me. And then I bought a bread maker. We found a little bread maker at a thrift store.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And I attempted to make bread because I'm a pretty good baker. I like to bake. I enjoy baking. I have some signature pieces.

[Mike]

I have a question.

[Ken]

Yes.

[Mike]

Are you trying to piss me off? No. Okay.

[Ken]

Why?

[Mike]

Well, we've had a conversation about bread makers before.

[Ken]

Huh.

[Mike]

That's not baking.

[Grayson]

Oh, I know.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

I'm leaning into something. Got it. So. So I thought that I would enjoy the bread maker because it's that track that makes sense.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

I was like, oh, this is making bread. This would be great.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

They smell so good.

[Grayson]

It smelled incredible. Also failed. It was like. It looked like mashed potatoes. Some of it was done. Some of it was overdone. Like, I know I'm blaming the yeast, but who knows?

[Mike]

Hold On. Hold on, hold on.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

How would you be blaming the yeast?

[Grayson]

I think I used the wrong kind of yeast. Or not enough.

[Ken]

Okay. Yeah.

[Mike]

And that's the yeast's fault?

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike]

All right.

[Grayson]

That yeast didn't belong in there.

[Mike]

All right. Tell your therapist I'd like him to focus on accountability. Go ahead.

[Ken]

Sure.

[Mike]

The yeast up the bread.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Okay, well, the wrong kind of yeast up the bread now that I buy the wrong kind of use. Maybe. I don't know yet. So it's a vague. It's a vague blaming of yeast. Right. Right. Now.

[Mike]

Got it. Understood.

[Ken]

Okay.

[Mike]

So pottery didn't work out.

[Grayson]

Pottery did not work out.

[Mike]

Bread didn't work out.

[Grayson]

Bread did not work out.

[Mike]

And we're here.

[Grayson]

And then I ordered a little set of, like, these charcoal pencils to. I start drawing again. I'm trying to get in. I'm trying to find a hobby.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Good for you. So it's hard to find.

[Grayson]

So I'm trying to draw, and it didn't. It also did not go well.

[Mike]

I. I would disagree.

[Grayson]

We'll show them on the show.

[Mike]

Okay. Look.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

All right. Go ahead. Why do you say it didn't go well?

[Grayson]

Because they're terrible. They're terrible. They're terrible drawings.

[Mike]

Okay. They're terrible. Draw. Okay.

[Grayson]

They're not good.

[Mike]

Okay. I don't agree.

[Grayson]

I'm a good drawler. And those are not good.

[Mike]

Every time you say draw with an L, my balls itch. And now you're saying drawler.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I'm like.

[Grayson]

What is. What's the term? I mean, just an artiste.

[Mike]

Just drop the L. Just drawer, drawer, draw.

[Grayson]

Now that sounds wrong.

[Mike]

Okay. Say drawing.

[Grayson]

Drawing.

[Mike]

Okay. So you. You really like the L in there? It's fine.

[Grayson]

Yeah.

[Mike]

It's okay. It just makes my balls. It. Now, I would. I. I don't agree with you that they're bad drawings.

[Grayson]

Well, for me, they're bad.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

For me, they're bad. And so why. They just.

[Mike]

They weren't what you were trying to draw.

[Grayson]

Right.

[Mike]

For me. Doesn't make them bad. I could clearly see it was a man.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like, it had a face, the nose. It was all in proportion.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And you and I talked about it too. Like, I just don't do realism. I've never done it before. I. I can. I'm a good mimic. So I can look at something and then copy it. But it's usually animated things.

[Mike]

I would like to say. What you did draw.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Looked impossible to me. I could have never.

[Ken]

Really?

[Mike]

Yes.

[Grayson]

That's crazy.

[Mike]

I'm very impressed with what you did.

[Grayson]

Well, thank you.

[Mike]

You're welcome. It's true.

[Grayson]

So the three hobbies. Fail, fail, fail.

[Mike]

Have you tried masturbation, buddy?

[Grayson]

Nailing it. I'm a pro.

[Mike]

Okay, one for four.

[Grayson]

Four.

[Mike]

Let's look at the bright side.

[Grayson]

So I was telling him. I was like, I walked away from all of these. Not discuss, but, like, frustration.

[Mike]

Definitely frustration at the three hobbies.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Okay. Walked away from pottery being like, well, that. That's not for me. I'll never do that again. And then the bread maker thing, I was like, well, I'm gonna get rid of this thing. I can't make bread. And then the art thing, I was like, well, I guess I can't draw anymore. Like, that must have been. Been, like, younger me. But then I started thinking about it, and the frustration is kind of goes, what you and I talk about all the time, which is failure. I'm not good at failure. Which brought me back around to being like, that's why I should keep trying. I need to go back to pottery and give it a second chance and maybe a third and maybe a fourth, and then decide if I like it or if I don't. Because what's happening now is it's a little bit of that, like, ADHD superpower kind of thing, where it's like, usually I'm pretty good at something pretty easily and pretty quickly because we just. As an ADHD or we just kind of, like, fall into it and learn everything about it and figure it out. And then we're like, hey, I can do that now. And going into pottery, I was like, yeah, I can do that. And when it didn't happen, I was like, oh, well, must not be for me. Same with the bread thing. I was like, oh, I know how to bake. I'll just be easy. And I'm like, here it is. And then it didn't happen. I was like, oh, okay. But failure. I'm not good at accepting failure. Trying again, because I think it goes, for me into embarrassment.

[Mike]

Failure is embarrassing.

[Grayson]

Failure is embarrassing.

[Mike]

I'm the sense.

[Grayson]

I'm the guy in pottery. Classic. Can't figure it out. Everybody else had a piece of. I did not have a piece.

[Ken]

I did.

[Grayson]

Teacher had to help me. It's really small. It's not great. So I was like, well, these. Everybody must think this guy's a. What the fuck? He couldn't figure it out.

[Mike]

What are you gonna say?

[Grayson]

This guy's a fucking idiot.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Grayson]

Same thing with the bread. Oh, you made bread? No, yes, kind of. Why, you fucking idiot. You can't figure it out?

[Ken]

No.

[Grayson]

Oh, you drew a picture. Kind of. Yeah, I did. Let me see it.

[Ken]

Oh, wow.

[Grayson]

What are you idiot, you can't draw this? No. And so that embarrassment of like, being seen in a way that is not perfect or presentable is hard for me. And that's exactly why I need to do it more and give it another chance. All these things.

[Mike]

Do you think that typically people see you as perfect and presentable, at least?

[Grayson]

Presentable.

[Mike]

Okay. And being in pottery and I mean, I saw you leave, you had an outfit, you were showered, haircut. Yeah, but because the. The bowl turned out different than you intended. No longer presentable.

[Ken]

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

[Grayson]

Presentable in a way of. Not like appearance wise, but just in like a. Yeah. This guy can't figure it out.

[Mike]

It's always figure it out.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Why? I have a theory, but I would like to hear why.

[Grayson]

I don't know. I think it's just because I think that is the expectation.

[Mike]

Oh, I'm asking why that? Why those words? Why is it always figure it out or he couldn't figure it out? I couldn't figure it out.

[Grayson]

I don't know. What's your theory?

[Mike]

Oh, to me it just sounds like you're too dumb to figure it out.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Grayson]

It always comes back to that. It's always just not capable.

[Mike]

Not capable.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Whether that is a lot of times it is just too dumb. Very rarely is it like, I think, because I think some of those things. I don't even know why I think this. I don't. Some of those things are. Feel like they're out of my control. Like I can be too slow or like too weak or too whatever, you know what I mean? Like, I can't really control that. Like, this is as fast as I can run. Hey, you're too slow. Sorry, man. Hey, you know, you're.

[Ken]

You.

[Grayson]

I need to help lift into the. Hey, I can't lift that, man.

[Ken]

That.

[Mike]

Yeah, okay.

[Grayson]

Sorry, man. But like, if you're like, hey, did you do this simple thing? Like, why is it.

[Mike]

Why is it simple?

[Grayson]

I don't know. I'm not saying that those things are simple. I'm just saying like a simple task. Like, I don't know, just like an. Whether it's like cooking or, I don't know, anything really. It's like, hey, did you do that thing? It's like, no. I was like, what do you couldn't figure it out?

[Mike]

Has anyone ever asked you, like, oh, you couldn't Figure it out?

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Who?

[Grayson]

I don't know. A lot of people. What, you've never had somebody say, you couldn't figure that out?

[Mike]

No, that's a.

[Grayson]

Not in a shitty way, but just.

[Mike]

Like, hey, that's shitty, you know?

[Grayson]

Really?

[Mike]

Yeah. You couldn't figure it out? Yeah, that's kind of shitty. You don't think so?

[Grayson]

I don't know. I guess. Well, context, whatever.

[Mike]

Yeah, context. Or it was mom now. Because what I've learned on this podcast is no matter what mom did, well, it wasn't malicious. Well, it was not. It wasn't in a shitty way.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Some things can just be shitty.

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike]

So, like. So, like, tell me you tried to make bread as.

[Grayson]

Well, as negative as I am.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

On a lot of things.

[Mike]

Not Mom. Yeah.

[Grayson]

Well, no, I'm just saying, just in general, like, I tend to. I tend to check the context in a lot of things before I just go, oh, that. You know, like, if somebody's like, can you. You can't figure it out? I would check the con, like, tone and, like, everything else that goes with that, instead of just being like, this guy's coming after me.

[Mike]

And so what if you just checked in with how you felt when they said it?

[Grayson]

Oh. Because it would be attacked every time.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Grayson]

That's why I have to check the context. That's why I have to do a little math to be like.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

All right. Anyway, so you want me to ask you how. How'd your bread go?

[Ken]

Would you. Would you?

[Mike]

Yeah, tell me. You tried to meet. You went to make bread and it didn't work out.

[Grayson]

I tried to make bread the other night, and, buddy, it looked like mashed potatoes.

[Mike]

What, you couldn't figure it out or what?

[Grayson]

No, couldn't figure it out.

[Mike]

Dude, ask me again.

[Grayson]

Hey, I tried to make bread the other night and look like fucking mashed potatoes.

[Mike]

Really? Why do you think that happened?

[Grayson]

I just couldn't figure it out.

[Ken]

I don't know.

[Mike]

And then who did it there?

[Ken]

Me? Yeah.

[Grayson]

So what's the. So what's the difference? See, I didn't find what you said malicious.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

You saying what? You couldn't figure it out?

[Ken]

I was like, no.

[Mike]

Oh, I was being shitty.

[Grayson]

Really?

[Mike]

I literally laughed at you and then said, oh, you couldn't figure it out? Yeah.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

I thought we were just, like, having, like. I thought we were having a moment of just being like, no, I couldn't.

[Ken]

What the.

[Mike]

You're like a puppy when someone's throwing steak and they're like, at least it's steak. They're throwing it at you. It felt like.

[Grayson]

It in that moment. It felt like you had been there too. Like, couldn't figure it out.

[Mike]

That makes it shittier.

[Grayson]

Really?

[Mike]

I think so.

[Grayson]

I don't get that at all.

[Mike]

I get that as, like, the situation is. I. I don't know. It doesn't matter.

[Ken]

It does.

[Grayson]

It's interesting that our intake is different.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

I took it as like a bonding thing about, like. Yeah, I my bread up too.

[Mike]

Oh, would commisery be another word for that?

[Ken]

God damn you.

[Mike]

We did it. If I'm dumb and you're dumb, we could bond and then we like each other. Oh, we figured that one out. That was nice.

[Ken]

I don't.

[Grayson]

I don't like this show.

[Mike]

I don't either. I hate it. Go to Patreon before I kill both of us.

[Ken]

This show is over.

[Grayson]

Anyways. I'm trying to embrace failure. The other homework I had was, like, trying to decide low risk things and high risk things because I tend to verbally process a lot.

[Mike]

What are we talking about?

[Grayson]

What to check in with people about. And so, like, because I verbal process and so I'm trying to, like, cut down on that. And so my therapist was like, well, start. Start making a list of what you think are low risk situations or questions. And what are high risk situations or questions. So low risk would be like, hey, do you think it's okay that the. The doors unlocked this afternoon? Look, yeah, we're all home. It does. That's a low risk thing. Like, we're all here.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

High risk would be like, hey, I'm. I'm about to take five Tylenol. That's too much. Right. Like, I. It says two, but I got a really bad headache. But five's too much. Right. Like, yeah, I could myself up or like, something would happen if I take too. Too much medication or something like that.

[Mike]

Okay, so I'm gonna.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I think I've put together what you're talking about.

[Ken]

Yes.

[Mike]

And I think you think you made it clear what you're talking about. Tell me if I'm right.

[Ken]

Okay.

[Mike]

Something that you struggle with is relying on other people.

[Ken]

Yes.

[Mike]

And part of that is asking advice, asking for help, checking in on many different types of things.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So now in therapy, you're trying to figure out what are low risk things and what are high risk things, because low risk things you don't need to check in with and ask for advice.

[Grayson]

Correct. Got it.

[Mike]

Onward.

[Ken]

Yes.

[Grayson]

That is exactly what I'm trying to Say, okay, question for you. Was that not what I said?

[Mike]

Well, all you said was, and part two was low risk versus high risk. That's why I was like, what?

[Ken]

Yeah, okay. Yeah.

[Grayson]

In my adh, I had moved on.

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Grayson]

So, yeah. So I was. I'm trying not to really process and I'm trying to really cut down on asking so many questions or. Or seeking out. That kind of verbal processing.

[Mike]

Is it. Verbal processing is another word for that help?

[Grayson]

No.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

Kind of. It's more. Not so much help, but validation, I would say. I think that's the category it falls into. Because in my head I want to know that, like, I'm validating my decision or my thought process. So if I'm like, again, like, hey, is it okay to open this window? In my head?

[Ken]

What?

[Grayson]

Yeah, in my head I would go, hey, you can just figure out if it's okay to open that window or not.

[Mike]

Figure it out.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Grayson]

That's not something you have to really bug anybody about. Just make the decision.

[Mike]

So let me ask you this.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

If every time you come ask me a question, low risk or high risk, if I just answer, oh, you can't figure it out that I would make me feel bad, well, it's not going to make you feel anything. Right. But how would that change the decision you make? The frequency of asking? Would it change anything?

[Ken]

Oh, yeah.

[Grayson]

I'd never talk to you again out of shame.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

You'd never hear from me.

[Mike]

Okay. But if it's about bread and I go, oh, you couldn't figure it out. Fine.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Because. Because in that moment, I couldn't. I think that's the. That's the difference. There is like, hey, you got me. You know what I mean? Like, the other way is they're all preemptive. This is post game. That's all pregame. So, like the quote, like low risk.

[Mike]

What pregame and postgame.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

What. What's the game?

[Grayson]

The experience or the. The task or the Whatever. Whatever.

[Mike]

I'm asking about bread was post.

[Grayson]

Yeah, I hate fucked up bread. And you go, you couldn't figure it out. You got me. But if I come to you and I go, hey, is it okay to open this window? And you go, you can't figure out if that's okay. Well, now that's pre game. And now I'm trying to validate whether I want to open this window or not.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And you're telling me, like, you're too dumb to figure out if you can open that window or not. Like, why are you asking me? And so I'm like, oh, well, the.

[Mike]

Way you can compartmentalize things is I truly thought I was like, okay, I get it. Still don't get it. Really? Well, that's pre game and post game. Like, how'd you get there?

[Grayson]

It's all the same for you.

[Mike]

You have a category for, like, everything.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Which is interesting because I'm the black and white thinker. That's what's crazy about it.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

So.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

But you so your broad picture on that, whether it's post or pre game.

[Mike]

If you ask me. Oh, you can't figure it out. Hey, what the fuck's your problem?

[Ken]

Really?

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

So in that scenario where you say, I made bread, it looks like mashed potatoes. And I go, oh, you couldn't figure it out? And I'm like, laughing with you. You're like, this guy is a. Maybe you wouldn't think. Like, yeah, this guy gets it.

[Mike]

That sounds mocking. No, really. That sounds like you're mocking me.

[Grayson]

Interesting.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You go, oh, you couldn't figure it out? Like, no, I figured it out. It just didn't end the way I wanted it to. That would be what I'd say.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Oh, I made. The bread's made. It just wasn't edible, you sucker. Yeah, like, yeah, yeah. Figured out to me is so demeaning. That's why when you always use that word, I'm like, that's terrible. Self talk. Yeah, that's how it sounds to me.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Interesting.

[Mike]

Even the second time when I was like, oh, why do you think that happened? You're like, couldn't figure it out. Like, what you just said before, this was like, oh, you couldn't. Like, if it's. If it's pregame.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Oh, you can't figure it out. What you hear is, oh, you're too dumb.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

But when you say, yeah, I couldn't figure it out, what you're saying is, I'm too dumb.

[Grayson]

Yeah, you're right.

[Mike]

I know.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Language is important, huh? Jesus. You ever think about how important you.

[Mike]

Ever think before you talk? I'm thinking about trying it out. Yes, I do think about language a lot. A lot. It comes up on this show frequently. You know, I think Lou, I think he knew what he was trying to say. Jesus Christ. And I gotta tell if you're listening without me recapping the high risk, low risk, we'd be lost. And you know that too. Listening you. That's why. All right.

[Grayson]

So, yeah, I'm trying to determine low risk, high risk.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And so I did something. You guys were out of town. Yeah, over the weekend. And I've been thinking about getting my nose pierced for a couple months now.

[Mike]

Yeah, you're really hitting the breakup checklist. Motorcycle lessons, a nose ring. You got a tattoo appointment.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You're going to. Got a dome in the woods.

[Grayson]

Yeah, buddy, I'm hitting all the stops.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

That's the equivalent of purple hair and bangs.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

So I got bangs this weekend.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

But I was it Friday came along Friday afternoon and I was like, let me get my nose pierced. And I called and make an appointment. I went, I got it done. And that was that. I didn't show them. I didn't call anybody.

[Mike]

There it is.

[Grayson]

I didn't call anybody. I didn't check in. I didn't. Nothing. I just went, I did it. And I didn't even post about it.

[Mike]

I was so proud of you for not posting about it.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I didn't even know it till I got home.

[Grayson]

I know.

[Mike]

I was like, oh, my God, I think my work is done. That might have been just for him.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Grayson]

But it was just trying to do my homework and it was like a thing where I was like, well, this is a low risk thing.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

I don't need to check in with anybody. I don't need anybody's opinion or approval or validation or whatever. And I'm like, I won it.

[Ken]

I did it.

[Grayson]

Got it.

[Mike]

Have you thought about instances where you can turn low risk into high risk? Because this is one of the ones, I think, with the way your mind works. I think could have happened.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

It could have been like, ah, it has this reviews. Like, is it like. Yeah, like they have a piercer but it's a second piercer. Is it stair. Like you could have really ramped it up.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And that's something else I'm. Well, that's something I've been working on is trying to get my worst case scenario under control.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And I think this was like.

[Mike]

What's another word for that?

[Grayson]

Catastrophizing anxiety.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yes. The anxiety that you've had your entire life.

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Grayson]

My good friend and worst enemy.

[Mike]

It's part of you.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yep.

[Grayson]

But yeah, I definitely went down that rabbit hole. Even after I got it pierced, I kept forgetting that it was done. I told you this. Like, I'm really. I keep thinking like something is in my nose because there is something in my nose. But I keep wanting to like, yeah.

[Ken]

Get it. Yeah.

[Grayson]

I can't believe in my sleep. I haven't been like, I know.

[Mike]

I remember one time I tried. I got you to sleep with a nose strip.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Never saw it again.

[Ken]

No.

[Mike]

Done.

[Grayson]

Dude. Sleep Mike. Yeah, that's a whole nother, dude.

[Mike]

That dude's a menace.

[Grayson]

Sleep Mike does whatever the. He wants.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

So anyways, but that. Oh, yeah. So that did kind of happen where I was like. I was like, oh, man, did I up, like, I. It. There's like a big heal. It's like three to six month healing process and I gotta spray this thing on it and I can't get in like all this stuff. And I'm like, I should just take this out.

[Mike]

Another one.

[Grayson]

What did I do? What the. And then instead of doing what I would normally do, which is a spiral, and then call a bunch of people or ask about like, hey, you know, she keeps it. Hey, I got this thing. I don't know what the. I just sat with it. I sat with it for a day and then the next day I was like, nah, it's rad.

[Mike]

I'm keeping it nice.

[Grayson]

But had I old me would have definitely called the place and been like, oh, yeah.

[Mike]

Hey, can I come in and down there?

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Grayson]

Hey, I need this out.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

How's the pain in your side?

[Grayson]

Not bad.

[Mike]

Nice.

[Grayson]

Way better today.

[Mike]

Good.

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Grayson]

This day was rough, dude.

[Mike]

No, it wasn't. It was. No, it really was.

[Grayson]

You don't know.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah, that's true. That's true.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Okay. Good for you, man.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Sad in it.

[Grayson]

Also. Also didn't go to the hospital yesterday.

[Mike]

Also didn't go to the hospital. Hey, just take your shirt off. It hurts right here.

[Ken]

Hurts here.

[Mike]

It hurts here. It's like, okay.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

You know, I. In the. In the spirit of verbal processing, low risk and high risk and all that stuff, I really did not want to tell you about my side yesterday.

[Mike]

Really?

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Why?

[Grayson]

I didn't tell you till like four.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Five o'.

[Ken]

Clock.

[Grayson]

Yeah, you didn't, but I wanted to. I felt like it was what. What got me to that point to ask you was like, oh, he works out all the time.

[Mike]

I'm in phenomenal shape.

[Grayson]

This seems like a valid question to be like, hey, you ever pull something here?

[Mike]

I'm not in phenomenal shape. That was a joke.

[Grayson]

And so that was. That was my thinking on that. That's the allowance I gave myself. I was like, hey, this is okay. Because now if you hadn't been working out all the time and stuff like that for the last few years, and I'd Just been like, out of nowhere. Like, hey, I got this pain in my side, then that's different, man. Then I'm still.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Old me spiraling.

[Mike]

How did I handle it? Was I soft with you?

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

You said, well, you can't figure it out.

[Mike]

I said, poke it. What happened? Really? How'd I do? I don't remember.

[Ken]

You did great.

[Mike]

Nice.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Softened it up.

[Grayson]

Met you where you were.

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike]

Oh, can you tell the. I had a codependency moment this morning.

[Ken]

You did? Yeah.

[Mike]

Can you tell the. Ken, do the dishes. The dishes. Our dishes. Can you tell them that? Because it ties in.

[Grayson]

Oh, okay. When I. I called our.

[Ken]

Our.

[Grayson]

The good friend of the show, Ken Gar.

[Mike]

Ken Gar. Shout out to Ken. We love you, bud.

[Grayson]

Incredible friend over the years. And. And so when I was going in the. In the pre breakup phase, we were having a lot of big talks, and we were talking about codependency and how it. And wasn't. Was interacting with everything. And he shared a story with me that he told me about a buddy of ours and about himself that really put things in perspective for me. And he said, our friend was. Was dating a girl and they were living together, and she hated doing the dishes, so the sink was always full. That's. My buddy calls Ken and he's telling him about it, and he's like, hey, man. He's like, I just, you know, I don't know what to. I've talked to her about it, you know, it just. It's just not on her radar kind of thing. And Ken's kind of laughing, and he's like, well, what should I do? And he's like, do the dishes. And he's like, yeah, but they're. They're her dishes. And he goes, no, no, no, they're the dishes. So do the dishes. Because they're not on her radar. They're on yours. It doesn't bother her at all. That sink could be full, but it's bothering you. So do the dishes. And he talked about his wife and how the struggles that he has with her, with her ADHD and him managing that and this and that and how she doesn't like to put away laundry. And he's like, she. That laundry will sit for days. And he's like, it drives me crazy. So I do the laundry. He's like, I put away. She. She'll wash and do whatever. He's like, but I will fold and put away the laundry because she will get dressed off the floor until it's all gone. And he's like, I can't have that, so do the dishes. And it came in for me when we were talking about one of the obstacles with the long distance was that I would have to go to LA more if I wanted more out of the relationship. And Ken was like, do the dishes.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

It's your need.

[Ken]

Yeah, it's your need.

[Grayson]

It's not hers.

[Mike]

So let me tell you my moment today.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You're not going to like it.

[Ken]

Okay. I can't wait.

[Mike]

So you're up before me usually.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You're an early breakfast guy.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

All right. Now, I went downstairs this morning after I got up. The dishwasher is full of clean dishes. Your dirty dishes are in the sink.

[Ken]

Yes.

[Mike]

Now, I stood in that kitchen for about four minutes being like, why can't he just empty the dishwasher and then put his dishes in there?

[Grayson]

Do you want an answer?

[Mike]

Nope.

[Ken]

Okay.

[Mike]

And I was like, huh? Do I address this? And I didn't. I emptied the dishwasher. I put your dishes in the dishwasher and I stewed for an hour about it.

[Grayson]

Do you want an answer?

[Mike]

No.

[Ken]

Okay.

[Grayson]

The answer.

[Mike]

I don't want the answer. Let me tell you why.

[Grayson]

Because it doesn't matter. Because the dishes weren't done.

[Mike]

It doesn't matter because anything yet. Anything you say doesn't change the situation for me. Like, because the dishwasher was run last night.

[Grayson]

Sure.

[Mike]

So it was done this morning.

[Ken]

Uh huh.

[Mike]

So the dishes were ready to be put away.

[Ken]

Yes.

[Mike]

And that's it.

[Grayson]

Can I ask you a question then? Sure. Do you think me putting away loud dishes at 6:40 in the morning would bother you?

[Mike]

No.

[Grayson]

That's why they weren't.

[Mike]

Okay. I'm glad I could do it for you. That was my moment. I was very. I was sitting there like. But I also know that dishes don't bother you. I know they're your least favorite chore. I remember that from Echo Park. You said you.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

I hate doing dishes, but I. Here's my side of things. Right.

[Mike]

So this isn't an attack. This is me talking about the codependent moment I had.

[Grayson]

I know.

[Mike]

Okay, go ahead. Make sure everybody knows you're a good boy. Well, also.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Because.

[Ken]

Because, Yeah.

[Grayson]

I don't think I'm getting represented in a fair way. It was too loud. And I planned to do it later when everybody was awake. And then you beat me to it.

[Mike]

Okay. So I'm standing in the kitchen.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Right. Very upset.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And then I thought of the do the dishes moment.

[Ken]

Mm.

[Mike]

And I did it. And I was pissed off for a little while, but I got past it. And even now, I'm like, it's. It's like. It's like hypocrisy, because I'm like. In my head, I'm like, why can't he empty the dishwasher? I'm like, well, why can't I? What the fuck?

[Ken]

I have a follow up.

[Mike]

Here we go. Yeah, let's change it. My girlfriend did this, not you. Different.

[Grayson]

Well, no, same.

[Mike]

Okay, go ahead.

[Grayson]

I think a lot of times, this is what I read from you a lot of times is that you're the only one that is. Is doing the responsible things, and you get upset when things aren't done because you feel like it's. The weight is on you. Right. You've said this many times in different situations, whether it's physical labor or mental labor or whatever. Like, you feel like you're the one. Even a couple weeks ago, when you're talking about meeting me in the middle, you started with, why do I have to be the one to do everything?

[Mike]

Well, as you would say, context is important.

[Ken]

Right.

[Mike]

And that was my retort to my therapist, so.

[Grayson]

Right.

[Mike]

That is not an applicable thing here.

[Grayson]

That's not a feeling that you had of like.

[Mike]

That was a feeling I had in the moment. My therapist says, you have to meet people where they are. And my response is, why am I the one to do that on all my relationships?

[Grayson]

Right, Right.

[Mike]

So that was a specific thing that does not apply here. That was me working through something with my therapist.

[Grayson]

Okay.

[Mike]

That's not a feeling or an experience that you or I had together.

[Grayson]

Okay. So the question is, do you think that. And I'll even take myself out of this. I'll make it an everybody thing. Do you think other people in the house are also doing that sometimes?

[Mike]

Doing what?

[Grayson]

Unloading the dishwasher?

[Mike]

Yes, I do.

[Grayson]

Doing stuff like that.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

So what is the difference between a moment of somebody else doing it and you doing it or whatever? So what is. What is that feeling of anger or frustration that you have being like this morning? Of being like, ah, man, I'm stuck doing this. What is that frustration?

[Mike]

Well, this morning it's because your dishes are in the sink, because you didn't want to unload the dishwasher? That's the story I have in my head in the moment.

[Ken]

Right.

[Mike]

Like, these very well could have been put away. The kitchen is a common shared area, so we all try to pick up after ourselves. So the story in my head at the moment was he didn't want to unload the dishwasher, so his dishes are now here. That's what it is. That's why it's different. Because it wasn't that you were walking through the kitchen and the dishwasher beeped, and you were like, oh, I could put these away. And you were like, I don't really feel like it.

[Ken]

Right.

[Mike]

That's a human thing. But, like, needing to put things in the dishwasher but you can't because there's clean dishes in there is just.

[Ken]

Right.

[Mike]

Is different for me.

[Ken]

Okay.

[Mike]

But maybe autistic. So, hey, you know, And.

[Grayson]

And so in this specific scenario, then context doesn't help you at all.

[Mike]

The context being early.

[Grayson]

Didn't want to wake. Didn't want to.

[Mike]

No.

[Grayson]

Wake you guys up.

[Mike]

No, because I hear an excuse. I. I can put away dishes without waking anybody up. It's not hard.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

See, for me, hearing. If vice versa, and I hear in that context, I'd be like, oh, that makes sense. And so that frustration and that anger is, like, gone then because it goes from this person didn't want to do it to. Oh, I get that.

[Mike]

Okay, let me ask you.

[Grayson]

It's just like, it's either done or it's not done. And so.

[Mike]

So I have a question.

[Grayson]

Sure.

[Mike]

So you didn't want to put away the dishes because you didn't want to make noise and wake people up.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

It's a loud activity.

[Mike]

Okay. So you couldn't figure out how to do it quietly.

[Grayson]

Couldn't figure it out.

[Mike]

I did that on purpose.

[Grayson]

I know you did.

[Mike]

So if I ask you that, then what?

[Grayson]

Yeah, then I would go, yeah, I couldn't figure it like that Wouldn't. I know that you're doing it now because I know it's.

[Mike]

But what if that was the real. Like, oh, you couldn't figure out how to just do it quietly?

[Grayson]

I'd be like, no, I. This is beyond. This is my honest response. Yeah, no, I would have felt like I would have woke you guys up.

[Mike]

Okay. So I even.

[Grayson]

I.

[Mike]

All right.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

No, I was just trying to talk about a codependent moment. Yeah.

[Grayson]

So, see, I don't think that's. I don't think that's a codependent moment. I think that's just a frustration, not.

[Mike]

A do the dishes moment.

[Grayson]

No, no. Because why? Because one. It's not. I think. I don't think it's an ongoing thing, and I don't think it's a relationship, like, conflict, like, all Those other situations that we mentioned were, like, an ongoing thing that they had, like, talked about and discussed, and, like, this was, like, a point of being like. And they were feeling like, I'm. I'm doing this. So you. Why aren't you doing this for me? That's codependence.

[Mike]

That's how I felt in the moment. You was like, why do. Why do I have to. I empty the dishwasher when it's clean? Why do I do that? And he doesn't. That's what it was.

[Grayson]

Right.

[Mike]

That was the feeling. That's why I'm saying it was a codependent moment. Like, we're not in a relationship.

[Grayson]

Like, yeah, friendship counts.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So that's what I was tying it to with the codependent moment was because, like, I would have emptied it and put my dishes in there. Why won't he.

[Grayson]

Right.

[Mike]

That was the feeling.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Does that make sense?

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

I'm trying to figure out that's if that's codependency or just frustration.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

Because it does have. Maybe it's just an overlap, because it is that expectancy of, like, yeah, this is what I would have done. Why didn't they do it? Yeah, what I would have done.

[Mike]

That's how I read it.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

So interesting.

[Mike]

I love when you smile that big. I can tell you're very uncomfortable. You have something to say. What's up?

[Grayson]

I am uncomfortable.

[Mike]

Why? I shouldn't have shared my codependent moment.

[Grayson]

No, you should have. I just. Some of the. I don't think. I don't think you realize how much truth comes out sometimes when you're saying some of these things and how much truth comes out.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

And for me, in that moment, what I heard was. And this is what I heard. And maybe this is not what you're saying.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

But what I heard was you never do that. You never emptied a dishwasher. And I'm like, I emptied a dishwasher. And I'm going through my head, and I'm like, I empty it all the time. And what is.

[Mike]

What is the truth that was coming.

[Grayson]

Out then that you feel that? I don't ever do that. And so that means that I don't. Which then spirals me into. I don't do anything around the house, which means that I'm a bad roommate, which means that, like, you're unhappy with it.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

And so, yeah, that's the spiral that leads me down.

[Mike]

So it's your truth, not mine, that comes out.

[Grayson]

I don't know. I'm asking, is that how you feel? You feel like, I don't. I don't ever do that.

[Mike]

Well, did I say that?

[Grayson]

A little nugget of it.

[Mike]

Did I. What did I say? Not what you heard. Not what you interpreted, not what you inferred. What did I say?

[Ken]

That.

[Grayson]

That the dishes were in the sink and you would have put them away. And you don't understand why I can't do that.

[Mike]

I said I understand why you can't do that.

[Grayson]

You don't understand why I can't do that because you do that.

[Mike]

Yeah, that was the story in my head this morning.

[Ken]

Yes.

[Grayson]

Which would imply that you're.

[Mike]

I'm actually also being very intentional about saying the story in my head. Yes, but you seem to be just glazing right over that.

[Grayson]

No, because that's attached to how you feel, right?

[Ken]

No.

[Grayson]

Sure.

[Ken]

Right.

[Mike]

But it's a story I'm telling myself. That doesn't mean it's real.

[Grayson]

But the stories we tell ourselves, huh? Are your truth, our reality.

[Mike]

No, they aren't.

[Grayson]

To ourselves.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

You know, our brain doesn't know the difference between, like, whatever you're feeding your brain. This is kind of related and kind of not. But, like, whatever you're feeding your brain, it doesn't know whether it's fantasy or reality.

[Ken]

And.

[Grayson]

And so your brain doesn't fucking know. So if the story you're telling yourself is that whatever this guy doesn't do X, Y, and Z, then that's the truth.

[Mike]

That, you know, the story I was telling myself wasn't, this guy doesn't do this. The story I was telling myself was, these are in the sink because he didn't want to empty the dishwasher. It was not a general statement of your existence.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah.

[Grayson]

How do I separate that?

[Mike]

Hey, man, I wanted to share a codependent moment, and we're 1012 minutes into you making sure everybody knows you can do a dish. So I don't know. Is that all right? That's got to be an RSD thing, huh?

[Grayson]

Probably.

[Mike]

You gonna work on that in therapy or.

[Ken]

I don't know.

[Grayson]

We're getting there.

[Mike]

Nudge it along. Just for me. Just nudge it along. If you could.

[Grayson]

How do you. What is the ideal situation for me accepting what that story. I just go, wow, that's crazy.

[Mike]

I don't know. I think your reaction after a few minutes of, like, I don't know if that's codependency, because X, Y, and Z. And then I can go, well, it felt like it because it was More about the feeling and the expectation of how I would and you wouldn't.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And then we can actually talk about what I'm talking about.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

Same, same. Do you.

[Grayson]

No, no, I see the difference there. I think I just get. I get hung up on the.

[Mike]

Oh. Immediately. Do you want an explanation? No. Yeah, I don't.

[Grayson]

Because.

[Mike]

Because I'm talking about a codependent feeling that I had.

[Grayson]

Because I want an explanation. That's so wild to me because, again, this goes back to the. The baseball thing, like, that we talked about, like, your example of it. Like, I still got hit, and I'm like, yeah, but he didn't mean to hit you. And so.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah, who cares?

[Grayson]

Yeah, exactly.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I still had to empty the dishwasher and put your dishes away. That's how I see it.

[Grayson]

Well, I'm gonna hit you with something.

[Ken]

You'D hit me with.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

You didn't have to do that.

[Mike]

That's true. I didn't.

[Grayson]

Didn't have.

[Mike]

But I had that hypocrisy moment of like, well, if I'm not going to do it, how can I be pissed at him for not doing it? And I was like, well, do the dishes. Put the dishes away. Put them in the dishwasher. Two minutes of my day. Yeah, it's okay. I'll be fine. I was a little pissed for a while, but, yeah, I'm fine.

[Grayson]

Interesting.

[Mike]

No, see, that's me sitting in it, like I said there. And I was like this. And I was like, well, you're being a kid right now. Like, just put the dishes away.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

So I sat in it, worked through it. Two minutes, done. They need to. They need to ask you why. Why'd you do this? Why? Who gives a. Yeah, it doesn't matter.

[Ken]

Huh? Yeah.

[Mike]

Your explanation did nothing for me. Is that helpful?

[Grayson]

That's wild. That's the wild part, because I would have heard that. I mean, like, oh, that makes sense.

[Mike]

Oh, yeah, I heard that. And I was like, oh, you. You can't put two dishes together quietly. Oh, okay. That's what I heard. I heard an. I heard an excuse.

[Ken]

Yeah, but you hook.

[Grayson]

Everything is an excuse.

[Mike]

I feel like, okay, that's how you feel. I can argue with it.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Do you not. Do you not. Do you not think or feel that way that you oftentimes receive feedback as excuse?

[Mike]

Well, I wouldn't. I wouldn't classify what we're talking about as a feedback, but context, I would. Yeah. Sometimes context to me reads as an excuse.

[Ken]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike]

And I Honestly, for a ironic tieback, for me, it is a thought of, like, you can figure it out. Like, with. Not in those words.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like, you've been like, oh, I just didn't want to wake you up. I'm like, so do it quietly. Like, what do you mean? Yeah, yeah, it's that. It's that simple to me, in my head.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

No.

[Grayson]

Yeah, for me, it would have.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

This is where. This is where the kind of the bruise goes away from the baseball. For me, if I would have brought this to you and said, hey, this morning I got a little frustrated because I had to put away, like, the dishes were done, and you could have put them away, but instead you left your dishes in the sink and I had to do them for you. Like, I don't know. That kind of made me mad this morning. And you were like, oh, yeah, I got up super early. I saw the dishes were done, but I didn't want to wake you up. I'm like, oh, okay. In my head, that doesn't come as an excuse now. It comes off as, like, context, and I go. It wipes away the now. I feel like the asshole now. I'm like, oh, fuck.

[Mike]

Well, can I. I was.

[Grayson]

Me.

[Mike]

I wasn't going to say this.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Do you want the honest truth?

[Grayson]

Sure.

[Mike]

I heard you putting the dishes in the sink, and I thought you were emptying the dishwasher.

[Ken]

You.

[Grayson]

That's. No, you did not.

[Mike]

I swear to you on my life, I truly was like, oh, he's emptying the dishwasher. And then I went down and I was like, what the fuck?

[Grayson]

You weren't even awake 6:40 this morning.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Ken]

Anyways.

[Grayson]

Yeah, that's what I. Yeah, yeah, that would have.

[Mike]

So, honestly, with that context, you probably couldn't have put him away quietly.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Put him in the sink quietly. So that's a fair point. But, yeah, I thought I heard you emptying the dishwasher.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And then I got downstairs, I was like, that was him putting the dishes in.

[Ken]

Cool. Yeah.

[Mike]

So that might have amplified it a little bit, but that is true.

[Grayson]

So funny.

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike]

I think the dog had just, like.

[Ken]

Okay.

[Mike]

Started getting around, and I was just starting to get up.

[Ken]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike]

How do you feel now?

[Grayson]

I. Oh, I feel fine about our situation. I'm. I'm very curious about this link between context and excuse with you, and I'm wondering if it's. If it is, do you think it's tied back to Tell Papa was a Mama, or do you think it's tied back to you Know, not having. Not having room for. To be slowed down or mistakes or what? Like you. You having to have your together at a young age. Do you think now when you hear context, you hear as an excuse because you had to, for lack of a better term, figure it out at a young age.

[Mike]

What you're saying makes sense, but I don't think so. I think for me, it's more of. I have a very strong desire for accountability.

[Ken]

You do.

[Mike]

And to give you an example, yesterday, like, I've been talking about, I've been wanting to go for walks at night.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And you were like, why haven't you been walking? And I. I was like, hey, honestly, number one reason. Lazy. Just being lazy.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

I'm. I'm choosing not to. And it's pure laziness. Like, yeah, I have bad ankles. Yeah. My knees fucked up. Yeah. I pulled my groin. Like, okay. But truly, I could go for a walk with those things.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So I'm be. I've been being lazy.

[Ken]

Hmm.

[Mike]

And that's the honest, accountable reason why I have been going for walks. So that's what I said.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So, like, when we're on here and you're. And you, you know, say something about the gym, I'm like, yeah, but you don't go. And you're like, well, I've been in front of this computer and I've been. And I'm like, okay, yeah, sure, man.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Yeah. It's just different.

[Grayson]

No, I think you're onto something there. I think through the mist of context, I'm sure there is the fucking monster of honesty hiding in there.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

And I don't know. I. Like, it's back to the hypocrisy. Like, if I want that from other people, I have to give that to other people.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

So I have to be accountable. And when. If I'm being lazy about something, I'm being lazy.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

It just is what it is.

[Ken]

Hmm.

[Mike]

That makes sense.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Me thinking, I see your wheels turning.

[Grayson]

No, I'm just agreeing.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Just thinking through it and. And.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Just thinking about that. What we were just talking about.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Grayson]

Through the fog of context. There is honesty hiding in there somewhere.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

But honesty is vulnerable and it's hard. It was very uncomfortable for me to tell you, oh, I'm being lazy. That sucks. That sucks to one say out loud. It's a. It's an admission.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

But my fucking. I tell you. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I tweak my knee, my fucking pull my groin, my ankle. I got bad ankles. You're like, yeah, you play pickleball twice a week. What do you.

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You know what I mean?

[Ken]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Like, yeah, of course that's not the reason.

[Ken]

So. Yeah.

[Grayson]

I'm gonna take this moment right now and be honest with you.

[Mike]

Okay.

[Grayson]

I could have put the dishes away this morning.

[Mike]

I know.

[Grayson]

Slower, quieter.

[Mike]

I know. But you didn't.

[Grayson]

I didn't.

[Mike]

There you go. Why not?

[Grayson]

I didn't want to wake anybody up. That's the real honest answer is, damn, he still lies. That's not the lie. That's the real answer. I was like, that's gonna be loud as. But you're right. Through the fog of context, though, there is the. The honesty, which is, yeah, I could have figured it out. I could have done it slower and quieter, but I didn't.

[Mike]

And we know that.