Secondhand Therapy – Episode #105
Fawning: The Hidden Trauma Response Behind People-Pleasing
PonyBear Studios – October 27, 2025
Episode Overview
In this candid and emotionally charged episode, best friends Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone dig deep into the lesser-known trauma response of “fawning”—the compulsion to people-please as a self-protective mechanism. With their signature blend of humor, vulnerability, and unfiltered honesty, Louie and Michael explore how fawning develops, how it shows up in adulthood, and their own ongoing struggles to recognize and overcome it. The episode also touches on the links between childhood experiences, conditional love, anxiety, and the long, winding road to genuine healing.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Introducing Fawning as a Trauma Response
[06:04–08:11]
- Michael shares a new term he learned from the book “Are You Mad at Me?”—fawning, defined as "extreme people-pleasing".
- Where most people know "fight or flight," fawning is explained as another survival response: blending in, becoming whoever is needed to maintain safety and avoid conflict.
- Louie comments on how growing up he was taught to "grow the fuck up" instead.
Quote:
"Fawning is essentially like extreme people-pleasing... I'll be whoever you need me to be, that kind of thing. That's fawning. That's keeping you safe in the situation."
—Michael [08:11]
Fawning vs. Authenticity and Safety
[08:11–10:25]
- The guys discuss the toll fawning takes on identity, as people-pleasers lose their sense of self.
- Michael shares how fawning shows up as "masking" or chameleoning, especially around emotionally immature or unpredictable adults, and how it traces back to childhood with parents who managed with conditional love.
Quote:
"You really find a way to victimize yourself anytime you can."
—Louie, humorously prodding Michael [07:37]
- Michael acknowledges: “I’ll dump [my values] to stay safe.” [09:02]
- The urge to be liked and accepted is so strong that it overrides personal values.
Quote:
"I don't know. Because... so many times you're just... When there is nobody around, then who am I?"
—Michael, reflecting on identity loss [11:10]
Fawning, Conditional Love, and Parenting
[11:29–16:33]
- Michael connects fawning to emotionally immature parenting, where love is contingent on behaving the "right" way (not making waves, being “the good boy”).
- Louie reframes parental escalation: instead of physical punishment, it morphs into emotional tools like shame and conditional love.
Quote:
"So instead of your mom hitting you like her parents did to her, she used conditional love."
—Louie [15:26]
- Michael details how he internalized that love = acceptance.
The Challenge of Naming and Changing Patterns
[16:54–20:14]
- Is naming fawning enough to change it?
- Michael feels exposed and pressured when Louie asks what he’s doing to implement this new knowledge.
- Louie takes a direct approach—learn, then act—while Michael admits to needing more time (“I’m just learning about it. I’m unpacking it.”).
Quote:
"Now if you can name it, then you can tame it."
—Michael [17:22]
Quote:
"You are an instant action person. You are like, oh, I learned this thing... I'll never do that again..."
—Michael, comparing their change styles [19:21]
Habits, Defensiveness, and Progress
[24:41–32:37]
- Louie and Michael banter about following through on therapeutic “homework,” revealing Michael’s procrastination and feeling “not good enough.”
- Louie asks probing questions about why Michael puts off action; Michael admits that for him, change is never immediate and is often motivated only by looming deadlines.
- The conversation circles back to how fawning shapes defensiveness—Michael often feels questioned or critiqued, leading him to preemptively explain or justify.
Quote:
"So when you are asking something, it doesn't feel like curiosity. It feels like critique. Because you're a smart guy."
—Michael [34:36]
The Core of Fawning: Never Feeling Safe
[35:55–43:46]
- Michael confesses the depth of his belief that immediate action is “impossible” for him (“10 out of 10 times, I’m not gonna do it” [35:55]).
- Louie pauses, feeling sad: “You don't think you can do anything, man. It's crazy.” [47:49]
- Michael reveals that he rarely feels safe, not physically, but emotionally (“I've never realized how unsafe I felt in every scenario in my life. That's a new discovery.” [48:35], [49:02]).
Quote:
"If I hurt me before you have a chance to hurt me, then you can't hurt me."
—Michael [38:16]
Quote:
"Sounds like you're trying to prove those things to yourself. So you take everything as a test so you can feel adequate and good enough."
—Louie [44:38]
New Realizations & Raw Vulnerability
[49:43–54:02]
- In a rare, intense moment, Michael shares a fresh revelation from therapy: he has begun to confront childhood sexual trauma for the first time.
- This new knowledge reframes his lifelong sense of emotional unsafety and self-protection.
- Louie reacts with care, asking clarifying questions about when Michael realized the trauma.
Quote:
"I've buried it pretty deep. Nobody knew about it because it wasn't a family member. It was a friend. And I didn't know what it was at the time. And bringing it up today in therapy was the first time I've ever—even to myself—said it out loud."
—Michael [52:50]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- [07:37] Louie: “You really find a way to victimize yourself anytime you can.”
- [08:11] Michael: “Fawning is essentially like extreme people-pleasing...”
- [09:02] Michael: “Yes, but I don’t have my safety, so I will get rid of the... I’ll dump those [values] to stay safe.”
- [15:26] Louie: “So instead of your mom hitting you like her parents did to her, she used conditional love.”
- [17:22] Michael: “If you can name it, then you can tame it.”
- [24:41–24:56] Louie walks Michael through the steps of his "last resort" approach to signing up for a cooking class—highlighting their differences in action-taking.
- [38:16] Michael: “If I hurt me before you have a chance to hurt me, then you can't hurt me.”
- [44:38] Louie: “Sounds like you're trying to prove those things to yourself. So you take everything as a test so you can feel adequate and good enough.”
- [48:35] Michael: “I didn't realize how unsafe I felt in every scenario in my life. That's a new discovery.”
- [52:50] Michael: “I've buried it pretty deep. Nobody knew about it because it wasn't a family member. It was a friend... bringing it up today in therapy was the first time I've ever—even to myself—said it out loud.”
Emotional Highs, Humorous Asides & Tone
- Despite the heavy subject matter, Louie and Michael weave in classic self-deprecating humor (comparing each other to Joe Pesci, referencing “the Wet Bandits,” ribbing about costumes, etc.).
- Their dynamic flips rapidly from laughter to raw vulnerability and back again, highlighting their comfort with emotional honesty.
- The tone is conversational, messy, and “in process,” making it feel like listeners are eavesdropping on a real therapy session between friends.
Important Timestamps
- [06:04] – Introduction of “fawning” as a trauma response
- [08:11–10:25] – How fawning is rooted in extreme people-pleasing and identity loss
- [11:29–16:33] – Connections between fawning, conditional love, and childhood parenting styles
- [17:22] – Naming and taming (the value and limits of self-awareness)
- [24:41–32:37] – Banter over follow-through, procrastination, and feeling “not good enough”
- [38:16 & 44:38] – Deep admissions about self-protective habits and the challenge to feeling “enough”
- [49:43–54:02] – Michael’s new realization about childhood trauma and the impact on lifelong emotional safety
Takeaways
- The urge to please others isn't just about being "nice"—it’s often rooted in deep fears shaped by childhood experience and trauma.
- Self-knowledge (naming patterns like fawning) is the first step, but action requires repeated, sometimes uncomfortable effort.
- Emotional safety is a prerequisite for vulnerability—and for Michael, even in friendship, that remains elusive.
- Real progress can look like simply admitting how deep the wounds go, sometimes for the first time.
For listeners: This episode offers no easy answers—just a raw, ongoing exploration of what it means to spot and slowly unlearn the habits that once kept us safe but now keep us stuck. As always with Secondhand Therapy, expect laughs through the pain and a lot of heart.