Fawning: The Hidden Trauma Response Behind People-Pleasing | #105

Summary

Secondhand Therapy – Episode #105

Fawning: The Hidden Trauma Response Behind People-Pleasing
PonyBear Studios – October 27, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this candid and emotionally charged episode, best friends Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone dig deep into the lesser-known trauma response of “fawning”—the compulsion to people-please as a self-protective mechanism. With their signature blend of humor, vulnerability, and unfiltered honesty, Louie and Michael explore how fawning develops, how it shows up in adulthood, and their own ongoing struggles to recognize and overcome it. The episode also touches on the links between childhood experiences, conditional love, anxiety, and the long, winding road to genuine healing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Introducing Fawning as a Trauma Response

[06:04–08:11]

• Michael shares a new term he learned from the book “Are You Mad at Me?”—fawning, defined as "extreme people-pleasing".
• Where most people know "fight or flight," fawning is explained as another survival response: blending in, becoming whoever is needed to maintain safety and avoid conflict.
• Louie comments on how growing up he was taught to "grow the fuck up" instead.

Quote:
"Fawning is essentially like extreme people-pleasing... I'll be whoever you need me to be, that kind of thing. That's fawning. That's keeping you safe in the situation."
—Michael [08:11]

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Fawning vs. Authenticity and Safety

[08:11–10:25]

• The guys discuss the toll fawning takes on identity, as people-pleasers lose their sense of self.
• Michael shares how fawning shows up as "masking" or chameleoning, especially around emotionally immature or unpredictable adults, and how it traces back to childhood with parents who managed with conditional love.

Quote:
"You really find a way to victimize yourself anytime you can."
—Louie, humorously prodding Michael [07:37]

• Michael acknowledges: “I’ll dump [my values] to stay safe.” [09:02]
• The urge to be liked and accepted is so strong that it overrides personal values.

Quote:
"I don't know. Because... so many times you're just... When there is nobody around, then who am I?"
—Michael, reflecting on identity loss [11:10]

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Fawning, Conditional Love, and Parenting

[11:29–16:33]

• Michael connects fawning to emotionally immature parenting, where love is contingent on behaving the "right" way (not making waves, being “the good boy”).
• Louie reframes parental escalation: instead of physical punishment, it morphs into emotional tools like shame and conditional love.

Quote:
"So instead of your mom hitting you like her parents did to her, she used conditional love."
—Louie [15:26]

• Michael details how he internalized that love = acceptance.

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The Challenge of Naming and Changing Patterns

[16:54–20:14]

• Is naming fawning enough to change it?
• Michael feels exposed and pressured when Louie asks what he’s doing to implement this new knowledge.
• Louie takes a direct approach—learn, then act—while Michael admits to needing more time (“I’m just learning about it. I’m unpacking it.”).

Quote:
"Now if you can name it, then you can tame it."
—Michael [17:22]

Quote:
"You are an instant action person. You are like, oh, I learned this thing... I'll never do that again..."
—Michael, comparing their change styles [19:21]

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Habits, Defensiveness, and Progress

[24:41–32:37]

• Louie and Michael banter about following through on therapeutic “homework,” revealing Michael’s procrastination and feeling “not good enough.”
• Louie asks probing questions about why Michael puts off action; Michael admits that for him, change is never immediate and is often motivated only by looming deadlines.
• The conversation circles back to how fawning shapes defensiveness—Michael often feels questioned or critiqued, leading him to preemptively explain or justify.

Quote:
"So when you are asking something, it doesn't feel like curiosity. It feels like critique. Because you're a smart guy."
—Michael [34:36]

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The Core of Fawning: Never Feeling Safe

[35:55–43:46]

• Michael confesses the depth of his belief that immediate action is “impossible” for him (“10 out of 10 times, I’m not gonna do it” [35:55]).
• Louie pauses, feeling sad: “You don't think you can do anything, man. It's crazy.” [47:49]
• Michael reveals that he rarely feels safe, not physically, but emotionally (“I've never realized how unsafe I felt in every scenario in my life. That's a new discovery.” [48:35], [49:02]).

Quote:
"If I hurt me before you have a chance to hurt me, then you can't hurt me."
—Michael [38:16]

Quote:
"Sounds like you're trying to prove those things to yourself. So you take everything as a test so you can feel adequate and good enough."
—Louie [44:38]

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New Realizations & Raw Vulnerability

[49:43–54:02]

• In a rare, intense moment, Michael shares a fresh revelation from therapy: he has begun to confront childhood sexual trauma for the first time.
• This new knowledge reframes his lifelong sense of emotional unsafety and self-protection.
• Louie reacts with care, asking clarifying questions about when Michael realized the trauma.

Quote:
"I've buried it pretty deep. Nobody knew about it because it wasn't a family member. It was a friend. And I didn't know what it was at the time. And bringing it up today in therapy was the first time I've ever—even to myself—said it out loud."
—Michael [52:50]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [07:37] Louie: “You really find a way to victimize yourself anytime you can.”
• [08:11] Michael: “Fawning is essentially like extreme people-pleasing...”
• [09:02] Michael: “Yes, but I don’t have my safety, so I will get rid of the... I’ll dump those [values] to stay safe.”
• [15:26] Louie: “So instead of your mom hitting you like her parents did to her, she used conditional love.”
• [17:22] Michael: “If you can name it, then you can tame it.”
• [24:41–24:56] Louie walks Michael through the steps of his "last resort" approach to signing up for a cooking class—highlighting their differences in action-taking.
• [38:16] Michael: “If I hurt me before you have a chance to hurt me, then you can't hurt me.”
• [44:38] Louie: “Sounds like you're trying to prove those things to yourself. So you take everything as a test so you can feel adequate and good enough.”
• [48:35] Michael: “I didn't realize how unsafe I felt in every scenario in my life. That's a new discovery.”
• [52:50] Michael: “I've buried it pretty deep. Nobody knew about it because it wasn't a family member. It was a friend... bringing it up today in therapy was the first time I've ever—even to myself—said it out loud.”

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Emotional Highs, Humorous Asides & Tone

• Despite the heavy subject matter, Louie and Michael weave in classic self-deprecating humor (comparing each other to Joe Pesci, referencing “the Wet Bandits,” ribbing about costumes, etc.).
• Their dynamic flips rapidly from laughter to raw vulnerability and back again, highlighting their comfort with emotional honesty.
• The tone is conversational, messy, and “in process,” making it feel like listeners are eavesdropping on a real therapy session between friends.

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Important Timestamps

• [06:04] – Introduction of “fawning” as a trauma response
• [08:11–10:25] – How fawning is rooted in extreme people-pleasing and identity loss
• [11:29–16:33] – Connections between fawning, conditional love, and childhood parenting styles
• [17:22] – Naming and taming (the value and limits of self-awareness)
• [24:41–32:37] – Banter over follow-through, procrastination, and feeling “not good enough”
• [38:16 & 44:38] – Deep admissions about self-protective habits and the challenge to feeling “enough”
• [49:43–54:02] – Michael’s new realization about childhood trauma and the impact on lifelong emotional safety

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Takeaways

• The urge to please others isn't just about being "nice"—it’s often rooted in deep fears shaped by childhood experience and trauma.
• Self-knowledge (naming patterns like fawning) is the first step, but action requires repeated, sometimes uncomfortable effort.
• Emotional safety is a prerequisite for vulnerability—and for Michael, even in friendship, that remains elusive.
• Real progress can look like simply admitting how deep the wounds go, sometimes for the first time.

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For listeners: This episode offers no easy answers—just a raw, ongoing exploration of what it means to spot and slowly unlearn the habits that once kept us safe but now keep us stuck. As always with Secondhand Therapy, expect laughs through the pain and a lot of heart.

Transcript

[A]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony bear Studios. For ad free episodes go to patreon.com secondhand therapypod hello, my little bear cubs. We have a new sponsor. And that new sponsor is BetterHelp. Yes, BetterHelp is an online resource for therapy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know who would have guessed it. Who would have guessed it? I don't know if you know about the show, but we're actually very pro therapy around here. Very pro therapy is the rumor that's going around. It's helped me a lot.

[B]

Tell me more.

[A]

It really has. You don't notice a change in me, Is that what you're saying?

[B]

I do.

[A]

Okay, then. Has it helped you?

[B]

Absolutely. I'm in Better Help right now. And my therapist is awesome.

[A]

Your therapist sounds pretty great. I'm not gonna lie.

[B]

He did. I'm so happy with him. And like, whenever we have to reschedule or something changes, it's so easy. It's like literally like two clicks and it's done.

[A]

I have to call mine.

[B]

Boo.

[A]

It's terrible. But here's what I will say. I was always very much an in person therapy kind of set up for myself. Yeah, I'm on telehealth now. Way better.

[B]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[A]

Doing therapy like from your couch or like where you're in your space where you're comfortable? Dude, I'm. I'm doing way better.

[B]

That's one of the best parts of Better Help is that I get to do it for from my cozy little corner chair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dim the lights. I light a candle. It is therapy time. Yeah.

[A]

I don't ever want to go back to a therapy office again. So that's where we're at now. Since they are a new sponsor of ours, they were nice enough to give us a little discount code for you to use. So a little treat.

[B]

Yeah. If.

[A]

If you're hearing this, maybe you're in between insurance and you would like to start some therapy. Or maybe you've never been to therapy and you really want to try it out. Better Help's a really good start. They make it easy to find and pair up with somebody and it's very affordable. So if you want to give it a shot, you can use the discount code they gave us. You can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy or just betterhelp.com and it'll ask you where you heard about it. Choose Secondhand Therapy. They'll give you 10% off your first month. Try it out. Start your healing journey. Change my life to change your Life.

[B]

I'm changed.

[A]

He's changing. Changing.

[B]

Welcome back to Secondhand Therapy from the Wet Bandits. Now you're on itunes or Spotify, wherever you're listening to this because you're not.

[A]

Visually consuming this episode. You can't see our stupid fucking costumes. And good for you.

[B]

Oh, buddy, it's so great. We're dressed up like the wet band is from Home Alone.

[A]

No, we're not.

[B]

It's so great. Well, I guess we could tell them anything and they'd have to believe us, right?

[A]

Michael's healed. He did it.

[B]

Anyways. We're not therapists. We're not professionals. This is not a substitute for therapy.

[A]

We're not therapists. We're not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way. I was getting. Please don't forget it.

[B]

I was getting there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyways, you are going to hear some. Some ads, some sponsorships, all that fun stuff. But you can avoid that by heading on over to Patreon. Ad free episodes, early access to episodes, and bonus stuff like after the pod, an entirely different podcast called the Other Shit show, and early access and ad free episodes of my new podcast, Happy not funny.

[A]

Why do you always say that part out of the side of your mouth?

[B]

It's like a little secret, you know?

[A]

It's a secret as no one's listening to it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I got a new. I got a new thing, you know, Go listen to it if you want.

[A]

Yeah, that's good. If you sign up for Patreon, we're doing giveaways, little goodies now. So you can get a sticker, you can get a sign print, you can get a T shirt for the different tiers. So. Patreon.com secondhand therapy podcast. Go check it out. And we pretty much put up something almost every day, so a lot of fun stuff over on Patreon. Go check us out. We also have merch available secondhand therapypod.com. i don't know where you're at. We're in Vegas and it's officially hoodie season, baby.

[B]

Oh, yeah, it's been chilly.

[A]

I rock my Vasectomy Farms hoodie today.

[B]

I did.

[A]

I think we should finally drop the tie dye hoodies. It's hoodie season.

[B]

Yeah. And they're thick and they're nice.

[A]

So emotional Sport hoodies, Vasectomy Farms. We're dropping some tie dye hoodies. It's hoodie season. Go check them out. It's a good way to support the pod. We appreciate you guys. Thank you. For being here. Wherever you're listening. Leave a five star review. Thank you so much. Share with somebody else.

[B]

Goodbye.

[A]

Whatever do.

[B]

Happy Halloween.

[A]

Did I sound like Joe Pesci?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Yeah. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[B]

And welcome back secondhand therapy. I learned a new term. Well, okay. I. I started listening to a new book. I started listening to a book called are you mad at me? Which feels like my biography.

[A]

Was it your diary? Reading.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Reading your own journal.

[B]

Are you mad at me? Okay. And yeah, it has taught me a new term which I didn't know was a thing.

[A]

Consent.

[B]

Why are you like this? Why?

[A]

What?

[B]

Not funny.

[A]

It wasn't. You did not laugh. Well, look at that. What was that noise?

[B]

Sounded like a gigo. A giggle. A giggle.

[A]

Okay. What term did you learn?

[B]

A fawning.

[A]

Fawning. F, A, W, N, I, N, G. Yes. Fawning. Tell me about fawning, sir.

[B]

Fawning is in the response category. So you. I always thought it was just fight or flight. Like, I think that's like the main thing that we're always taught. Like, it's fight or flight. Fight or flight.

[A]

That is what I've. That's. I'm familiar with those two. Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Fawning. Yeah.

[B]

Is another option there. Oh, so it's fight, flight or fawn.

[A]

It's interesting. I actually grew up with the third option. So you had fight?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Flight or grow. The up was the third one that we had. Tell me about fawning. It sounds nice.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

What?

[B]

What, What's. What's going on with you tonight? You're extra spicy.

[A]

I was sharing about my childhood.

[B]

Yeah, that's what that was.

[A]

Grow the fuck up. Yeah. I just said that was another option I grew up with. Were you not. You couldn't hear me over that dumbass wig?

[B]

Probably not.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Fawning.

[A]

Tell me about fawning.

[B]

It's pretty much just extreme people pleasing.

[A]

Hold on. Did you really think I was digging at you when I said that just now?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How?

[B]

Because you always tell me to grow up. No matter what I talk about, you're like, well, or you could grow up.

[A]

I know. I was saying I grew up with another option.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Called grow the fuck up. I thought I was digging it myself. Like.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

That's why I always say that.

[B]

Man.

[A]

You really. You really find a way to victimize yourself anytime you can.

[B]

Go ahead. Yeah, it's just, you know, when I'm used to getting attacked by somebody when they.

[A]

Yeah. Yep.

[B]

Say things that sound attacking. I'm like, oh, this guy's attacking me. It's interesting.

[A]

Even when I wasn't attacking you, you said, I'm getting attacked. So to the point you said when someone's always attacking me, happening. That ain't happening.

[B]

Mm. Correct. Correct. Stand on my. Yeah.

[A]

Huh.

[B]

Anyways, fawning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So fawning is essentially like extreme people pleasing where, like, even things that I thought were just, like, fitting in for acceptance or this and that. Like when I talk about, like, being a chameleon in high school, like, just trying to get along with everybody and like, I'll. I'll be whoever you need me to be, that kind of thing. That's fawning. That's keeping you safe in the situation. Because fight or flight are options.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That we're taught. So it's either like, fight, which means you stay, and you're going to be in the conflict until it's resolved. And then flight is when conflict happens. You get the out of there. You can't handle it. You shut down, you leave. Fawning is becoming whoever you need me to be in that moment to. To settle you down or to settle the situation down so that I feel safe.

[A]

So, like masking.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, like masking. It's like it's. Yeah, it's a performance. It's pretending. It's, you know, let's say you're upset with a mutual friend of ours and you're going off about them, even if I don't have a problem with that person and I feel unsafe, like, you're gonna get angry at me if I don't agree with you or whatever, then I will. I'll be like, oh, yeah, yeah, that guy. You know, and I'll join in with you because that's keeping me safe. Because the other option is conflict, right? You're like, oh, this guy. And I'm like, actually, I don't think he did anything wrong. And now you can turn your anger on. And now I'm also feeling it. So it's like, oh, I don't want any of that. So.

[A]

Yeah, but then at least you have like, your values and character.

[B]

Yes, but I don't have my safety, so I will get rid of the. I'll dump those to stay safe.

[A]

That's a bummer.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And that's how people lose identity in becoming whatever the people need them to be in these moments or, you know, in moments of conflict or whatever. Like, I'll get rid of my entire identity to feel safe.

[A]

What is your identity exactly?

[B]

I don't know. Because. So Many times you're just.

[A]

You think you're. Do you think you just exist in a fawning state?

[B]

Now, I've thought about that because.

[A]

What.

[B]

Was interesting about codependency was they're talking about the isolation that goes with it and how it's the attractiveness of isolation because you can be whoever you need to be or whoever you want to be because there's nobody around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's similar with fawning, with identity. When there is nobody around, then who am I?

[A]

And.

[B]

As much as I like isolation, I kind of hate it.

[A]

Yeah, you're a lonely boy.

[B]

Yeah. I don't know what to do with myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it also comes from, like, fawning comes from emotional, immature parents who would take out their emotions on their kids.

[A]

Yep. Experienced it.

[B]

Yeah. Whether that's abuse or, you know, ignoring them or withholding from them, stuff like that. Then that teaches you to fawn because. And that also, like fawning also is about, like reading people's emotions or trying to be hyper aware. Like all those things go into fawning because I need to know, I need to manage the situation so that I'm safe. It always comes back to safety. Yeah. And I didn't. I just always thought again, like, that that stuff was chalked up to people pleasing and being polite and doing, you know, being a good boy and like doing all that stuff. Like it is to the. To a degree. But what's underneath that is protection and not feeling safe and. Yeah. I'd never heard of fawning before and this book is just like, I'm listening to it every morning and it's just beating my ass every morning.

[A]

Yeah. So fawning. You fawn, you chameleon. To be whatever you need to be in front of whoever is in front of you to keep yourself safe. What does, what does it mean to be unsafe, then.

[B]

Open to being hurt?

[A]

That simple.

[B]

Yeah, I. That's the way I look at it. Either you're going to leave or be mad at me or be upset with me or not like me. Like those are all things that could hurt me.

[A]

So when you go beyond fawning, have you started to investigate why not being liked is so hurtful for you?

[B]

No, not yet. I think it just comes down to acceptance. Right. Like not only.

[A]

Same thing. Why is not being accepted so hurtful?

[B]

Because acceptance comes with love in my book. Because that's what I was taught. If mom liked you, if you, if she was accepting of you, then you were good, then you were okay.

[A]

That's true for everybody.

[B]

I don't know. That's just where I learned it.

[A]

I mean, everybody in your mom's life.

[B]

Oh, I don't know. I think it might just be a parent thing. Yeah. I think it's just like a parenting tool.

[A]

Tool. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I don't know how else to describe it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, like, I was. I was talking about it in therapy and about, like. Yeah, she. She got hit. She got spanked, and her parents before her got really hit, and so she didn't want to hit me. So what's the alternative to not hitting me?

[A]

It's emotionally hitting you.

[B]

Yeah. Shame. And. Yeah. I'm not saying that's wrong or right. I'm just saying that's.

[A]

Oh, it's wrong.

[B]

That's the. That's the escalation or the. The de. Escalation of, like, of parenting. That's why I said it's a tool, because I don't know how else to describe it. I. I don't know.

[A]

So instead of. Instead of your mom hitting you like her parents did to her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She used conditional love.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

To get you to do. What do you think?

[B]

Act. Right.

[A]

Because if you didn't, what would happen to her?

[B]

She would be disappointed. She would be upset.

[A]

Why?

[B]

Because you want your kid to be a good kid.

[A]

For who?

[B]

For the world. You don't raise a crazy person or a bad person. So she was trying to raise a good boy.

[A]

So. For the perception of her.

[B]

Yeah. And what she thought society was at that time of, like, what it is to be a good person.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What?

[A]

Nothing.

[B]

Oh, I thought you were, like, you were leading.

[A]

No, I. I mean, honestly.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

This is just another conversation about your mom using conditional love and turning you into a people pleaser.

[B]

Yeah, but it's more so about the idea, like, we went down that road, but it's more so about learning about fawning and about, like, this new concept that I didn't know was there.

[A]

And how is that helpful for you to not being a people pleaser?

[B]

To learn that it's not just people pleasing, that it's deeper than that. Yeah. That's helpful. How so are you. Are you trying.

[A]

I'm trying to understand how learning, like the definition of fawning.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

How that, like, leads to growth for you.

[B]

Oh. Because now if you can name it, then you can tame it. And so if it's.

[A]

So how are you taming it?

[B]

I'm just learning about it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

See, I'm getting defensive because I feel like, you're expecting me to be healed already. Like, you're like, oh, you learned this a couple days ago. So, like, are you done with it? And I'm like, oh, no, I'm not. I'm still learning and unpacking it. But I feel like I'm on the spot right now. Because you're like, so what are you doing with it?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, I'm learning about it. I'm unpacking it. And you're like, yeah, that's not good enough.

[A]

I'm not saying it's not good enough. I'm asking how it leads to growth. Because we've. We've often had these conversations where learning about the things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you do a lot of learning about things. And then I go, okay, so how do you implement change? And you. You don't usually have an answer. So I was asked. I mean, you have a new therapist. You have a new book. Like, I was wondering if you had learned an implementation. Yeah. Because you've learned a lot about people pleasing.

[B]

Yeah. And I've been saying no to more things.

[A]

You don't have to prove it to me. I'm just telling you where I'm coming from right now.

[B]

Okay. I thought you were asking for context. You're not asking for context.

[A]

I very rarely am asking for context. I'm asking for. You know what fawning is.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You. We've known mom use conditional love for about a year.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

We've known you're a people pleaser for a very long time.

[B]

Yes. But we didn't know that that's what that is. Like, we didn't know that that's fawning. Like, that. That's a response of being safe and protective. And that to that degree, it'd be like the same thing about being like, hey, every time I eat a candy bar, I get sleepy. And you're like, hey, do you have diabetes? It's like, I would like to know if I have diabetes or not. That would be more helpful than just being like, I eat chocolate and I get sleepy. I was like, well, that is helpful. Now I can learn more about diabetes and unpack it and figure out how to.

[A]

How much would you learn about diabetes before you started taking insulin?

[B]

I don't know. Got it.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And here's. And here's where we differ. Like, you are. And you are an instant action person. You are like, oh, I. I learned this thing. I'll never do that again. Or like, I did it and I implemented it right away. Like, even Last. A couple weeks ago, I said, hey, my. My therapist. My therapist gave me some homework. I literally just came downstairs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

From therapy. And I said, my. My therapist gave me some homework. He wants me to sign up for a cooking class. And he went, did you do it? Yeah, I just walked downstairs from therapy. No, I did not do it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So that's the difference between you and I. Like, you would. You would log off from therapy and do it right away. Immediately you'd be like, all right, I'm signing up right now.

[A]

I would. Because I'm on the computer and it was homework from therapy. I would at least look up a cooking class then. Yeah, I would. Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And I wouldn't.

[A]

I know. Are you taking maca yet?

[B]

I. I am, and it's pretty cool. Yeah, I'm only on day three.

[A]

Yeah. Which one are you taking? You on the black. Yeah, I do the black too. I do the black and I do the tri blend.

[B]

Oh, you do too.

[A]

I do too.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Technically three, because the blend is a blend of three. Okay, well, so if you don't know about maca, it is a root native to Peru. It grows in three colors. Black, red, and yellow. Or yellow or yellow. Yellow or yellow. I take the black and I take the tri blend. My girl takes the red, and you take the black.

[B]

I do.

[A]

Typically, yeah, men take the black, women take the red, and then you intersperse the tri blend. But it has a lot of benefits. I've been taking it daily for a little over a year. I have noticed a lot mood, skin, hair, energy. If you heard testosterone, you know, libido.

[B]

I've had a lot of improvements.

[A]

Yeah, all true. And we get. Well, I get our. I get my maca. And I have been from a company called the maca team. They are the biggest supplier of genuine maca from Peru, the biggest supplier in America. And they are nice enough to partner with. Partner with us and give a discount Code. If you want to try out maca, you can go to themaka team.com secondhand therapy and you can use code bear cub for 10 off.

[B]

Oh, fancy.

[A]

So, yeah, if you want to try some maca, try it out, dudes. Try the black ladies. Try the red or try the try. But at least go to the website, read about it, see if you might want to do it. It's not pharmaceutical. It's all natural. I've been taking it for over a year. I like it. You're three days in. You're less annoying. So we did it.

[B]

We did it.

[A]

Themaka team Dot com. Secondhand Therapy. Check it out.

[B]

Hey, if you're tired of hearing these ads, which I'm sure you are, you should head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to episodes. You could be hearing this a week early along with accident, along with access to an entirely different podcast. Some would say a better one called the other shit show.

[A]

It is fun.

[B]

It's non therapy related.

[A]

It is fun.

[B]

Super fun. Plus you have early access to my new podcast series, Happy Not Funny. And it's ad free episodes on that as well. Merch discounts. Also fun live show things where we interact with the audience.

[A]

Live streams is what he's trying to say. We are not going on tour.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. What did I say?

[A]

You said live shows.

[B]

Well, same, same, you know. No, it's like a live show. Nope, it's like a zoom.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Anyways, you'll have access to us in a more intimate manner.

[A]

Intimate.

[B]

How about that?

[A]

Intimate. There's no end.

[B]

Yeah, like the candidate. Like the candies.

[A]

Intimate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also, if you sign up, you get a little treat.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So check out the different tiers. One of the tiers is just if you're just here for secondhand therapy, you want no ads, we'll send you a dope little sticker. And I'm gonna be honest with you, a lot of time went into designing this sticker. Yeah, too much. You could argue too much dope sticker though. So if you sign up for that tier, we'll send you a sticker. The next tier if you want the other podcast, if you want bonus stuff from secondhand therapy, all the little extras, you get the sticker and we going to send you a signed print designed by yours truly. That took way too much time. Still, way too much time. We'll sign it, we'll send it out to you. And then we have the top tier with the live streams. If you want to hang out with us a couple times a month, you get the sticker, the print, and we'll send you a T shirt that we are not selling or getting anywhere else. So check out Patreon. If you sign up, you get some treats and it's a good way to support the podcast.

[B]

We'll see you over there.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

I know.

[A]

When's your cooking class?

[B]

I'm on a waiting list right now.

[A]

How'd you find the waiting list?

[B]

Listen, that's not important.

[A]

Well, you're saying I do things one way, you do them another.

[B]

Yeah, I looked into it a few times. That Week and was running into some roadblocks. And you said, you know, there's a community service down the street. That's the. Or community center down the street that does cooking classes. And I said, oh, I forgot about that. And then I went and I signed up there after looking into it a few times on my own. Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And even that, I feel not good enough.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Am I right that.

[A]

What's not good enough for you? What is not good enough for me?

[B]

That. That the, that roll out of actions.

[A]

I don't, I don't really quantify your actions and, like, good enough or good or not not good enough for me? Qualify them, not quantify them. Yeah. I, my, my perspective on the situation is he's like, oh, I gotta sign for cooking classes. I said, okay, did you do it? You said, no. Okay. And I said, hey, did you find a cooking class? I looked at a Groupon, but it was in Washington, D.C. or whatever.

[B]

I almost, I almost bought one that was not in here. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I was like, you know what, man? I've been really struggling not to do it for you. But there's cooking classes two minutes from the house, and then I watched you on your phone try to figure out the schedule, and da, da, da. I said, hey, go down there. Yeah. Just go and ask them about the cooking classes. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So your side is like, well, the way I do it, I don't do it right away. And I do this and this, and I go. But when I go, hey, they're right there. Go do it. And you did it. Now you're on the waiting list. I, I. And it. This might not be for me to understand. Right. Why that not doing it and then looking at it and not doing it and looking. Why you find that to be better for yourself? Do you find that's a way that you have found to set yourself up for success?

[B]

I find it to be the only way that I know how to do it. If you had not said, like, just drive down there and ask them about it, like, that is the last resort for me. I'll call, I'll check online, I'll search, whatever. But going there and, like, asking, like, doing that, like, that is I, that's not on my radar. You do know how.

[A]

Because it's the last thing. So you do know. It is on the radar.

[B]

I'll get there eventually. But it's not anywhere near, like, top of mind at all. Like, at all. I don't know why. I can't tell you why. I don't know That I just know that I. Yeah, I wouldn't have done that or I would have done it as a last resort to be like, oh, I guess I could just go there. But yeah, I don't know.

[A]

All right.

[B]

In my head, my therapist gives me homework. I have until the next therapy session, which is the following Monday, to get that homework done.

[A]

And when do you usually do it?

[B]

Somewhere in between there. Usually towards last minute. Sure.

[A]

Yeah. Do you find that through the history of life, professionally, personally, relationships that waiting till last minute is. Usually leads to the ideal outcome you're hoping for?

[B]

No, but that is a hard habit to break.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Now talking about implementing changes and things, usually the last a year, whenever I'm going on a trip, I used to pack last minute things like that.

[A]

That's when you pack for a trip? Yeah, before you leave.

[B]

I mean, like literally the night before I'm throwing in a suitcase or doing laundry last minute being like, I hope these are dry, I gotta leave at. In like a few hours.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I've been packing earlier and it has changed my life for the better.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Yeah, I've just been. I have been doing things earlier than usual and have been finding them enjoyable, but that's not always the case for me.

[A]

So what, that they're not enjoyable?

[B]

No, that I'm thinking about doing them early or like just knocking them out, even though I know probably less stressful, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Even though I know all that, sometimes it doesn't always follow through with action.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. And especially like with this, like, in my mind, like, yeah, I just got done with therapy. I'm still processing what we were talking about. I'm still like, you know, going through it kind of. And doing it right away is not. No, no way.

[A]

But even when somebody asks you, oh, did you do it? And your response is to be. Get defensive and be like, I just got off therapy. When it could just be like, yeah, when I do things earlier, it's better.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because when you. Let me start here, when you ask, did you do it? Is that a critique?

[A]

No, it's a question.

[B]

So you're not looking for a specific answer there. You're not looking for a. I knew this guy wouldn't do it.

[A]

No.

[B]

So there's. So what is. So it's literally just a question. So why ask that question so early if you know that usually I'm late to start things or.

[A]

Well, one, I don't. Sometimes after therapy you hang out for a while.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Two I don't keep your therapy schedule. I don't know that you just finished therapy. I know you had therapy today.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So for all I know, you've had two hours since therapy ended. I don't think you shut your laptop and come downstairs like, oh, okay. So all of the question is, you said, oh, I have homework. Sign up for a cooking class for me. That takes two minutes. Cooking class near me. And you book one that fits.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I go, oh, did you do it?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Look how simple it is. If you don't. If you don't look at it like this guy's trying to fucking get me right now. How many people in your life are always trying to get you?

[B]

Just one. Yeah, no, I feel like. I do feel. I felt like it was a critique. I felt like you always feel like it's a critique. Yeah. Because you. I think you have. Because we do things so differently that you don't understand why, again, like, why we're in this conversation right now is like, you don't understand why I wouldn't just do that.

[A]

You don't understand why you wouldn't just do that sometimes.

[B]

Yeah, sure.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

So, yeah, for me, it feel. And. And because of the conversation earlier, which, which you mentioned, like, you know, when are you going to implement this? Or what are you. So that comes off as like, you can ever do anything with any of this information? And I'm like, yeah, I'm doing stuff with this information and I'm learning.

[A]

And you're like, do you think you would feel different if. When I asked you, when are you going to implement that? If you had an answer.

[B]

I do have an answer. And then I try to tell you the answer, and you go, hey, I don't need to hear it. And I go, oh, okay.

[A]

You don't have an answer of when you're going to implement it. You have an answer as to why you haven't. Those are different.

[B]

No, I, I. When I started to tell you the things that I was implying, you're like, hey, I don't need. I don't need proof you're doing that. And I was like, oh, I thought you were asking for context. And you were like, nope, okay.

[A]

And I was like, oh, okay, I understand.

[B]

Okay. Yeah. So it comes off as like, you have these expectations and you know me really well, and so you already know the answer. When I. So when I.

[A]

That's not true.

[B]

That's how it comes across to me. That's how I'm receiving it. Is that, like, that's Why I feel critiqued is like, you know, in my head, I'm like, you know, I just got on with therapy. I'm coming downstairs to talk to you, and you're asking me a question that you already know that the answer is no. So you. If for me, it feels like you're searching for me to come around to be like, no, I didn't do it. Add it to the list of things I'm not doing. Like, I'm a piece of.

[A]

And.

[B]

And you're coming across being like, yeah, see, I would have done it because I'm actually doing the things.

[A]

I'm like, what if you didn't predict the whole conversation and just let it happen?

[B]

And that's why I'm asking, what was your intention behind that? It really was just a question.

[A]

99 of the time. It's just a question.

[B]

Yeah. That's hard for me to believe. And I don't know why.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I do know why. Because you're a smart guy. So.

[A]

I am smart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't make sense. Yeah. So when you. So when you are asking something, it doesn't feel like curiosity. It feels like critique. Because you're a smart guy, and you know me really well, so you know I didn't sign up for that cooking class. Why are you putting me on the spot? Why are you asking me right now? You know the answer. So that. Yeah, that's why. That's why I get defensive. That's why it feels like critique and not questions. Yeah.

[A]

And why do I. Why do I know the answer?

[B]

Because you know me. You know me really well, and you're a smart guy.

[A]

So you're incapable of surprise.

[B]

Not incapable, but in certain scenarios, like that one, there's no way I got off of therapy and immediately searched a cooking class, like, right away.

[A]

That's impossible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you actually find that funny?

[B]

I'm. I find it honest. And I find the. The honesty to be ironic. If I'm being like, yeah, that is. I know that nothing's impossible, but I know myself well enough. Well enough to know that, like, 10 out of 10 times, I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna look that up right away. So. Yeah, okay. What?

[A]

I feel sad.

[B]

I know you do, because that means that I'm unwilling to change, but that's unwilling real. Is that not why.

[A]

There'S. There's such a quick way for you to find out why.

[B]

Why do you feel sad?

[A]

Look at that, dude.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Oh, man. I feel sad because. Hey, dip, stop thinking. You Know everything I'm thinking you. Jesus Christ, man.

[B]

Yeah. Do you?

[A]

Why?

[B]

Do you.

[A]

Why? How is that helpful for you? No, Pick your head up. It's.

[B]

Two things.

[A]

Classic, classic callback.

[B]

Two things. Yeah. One. Okay. I'm not gonna. I'm. I'm not gonna cry in this episode. It's the Halloween episode. Yeah. We're in costumes. I'm not gonna cry. Yeah.

[A]

One, I'm in a beanie, but.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One.

[B]

Because I'm. If I hurt me before you have a chance to hurt me, then you can't hurt me. Yeah, man. And two. Yeah. If I predict what you. What you think of me or what you're going to say to me, then more often than none, I don't have to hear the truth, which is that goes back to. It might be more hurtful than me hurting me. And I ain't trying to get hurt.

[A]

So what is the. What is the truth?

[B]

I don't know, but it might be worse than.

[A]

Than the story you're already telling yourself.

[B]

Yeah. So I can just predict and move on.

[A]

So do you think knowing what fawning is, is helping you with this?

[B]

Hey, man, I'm just learning about it, so. Yes.

[A]

Jesus Christ. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. It's all about protection.

[A]

I know, man. I'm learning about fawning. Cool. How's that helping you? And I gotta. We gotta do this for 15 minutes before you go. Oh, dude. Damn. What are you feeling right now?

[B]

Feeling. I'm feeling. Not like an expert. I'm feeling that I haven't had a chance to implement anything about fawning at all and that I'm just learning about it. And then I feel like I'm getting a little bit of, like, a progress report in something that I'm not ready for, like a test I haven't studied for. And I'm like, oh, I haven't even learned how to fight back from fawning yet. We're not that far in the book yet. And I feel like I'm getting tested on the spot and I'm like, oh, I don't know what to do yet. I haven't implemented any of those changes yet. I'm okay, I don't know anything yet.

[A]

And, yeah, so what we're talking about right now is you predicting conversations and people's reactions. Yeah, you've been talking about that for a while.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What have you learned and implemented there?

[B]

It's hard. It's hard for me to do that.

[A]

What are you. What should you be doing? What is your.

[B]

Asking more questions? How do you do that by asking more questions and taking time to.

[A]

Don't put your head down like you're in trouble. You're not in trouble.

[B]

I feel like I'm in trouble.

[A]

You're not in trouble. You've been talking about predicting people's in like ahead for a year and you're sitting here being like, oh, that like this is what I'm saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You keep learning about things, but.

[B]

It.

[A]

Always, it seems like you're learning it in real time. Yeah, that like learning the terms is like just self protective so you don't have to face it.

[B]

No, it's just this particular thing is really hard for me to implement. I'm really. I very rarely feel safe.

[A]

I can tell.

[B]

So yeah, this one's a tough one for me, man.

[A]

What do you need to feel safe?

[B]

I couldn't tell you.

[A]

So how do you expect to get there if you don't know where you're going? I just had to realize you're sitting there in a wig and we're having like, like this, like this conversation. Your head's down and I'm just like, how can anybody take this seriously?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sorry. Weird moment. Weird, like out of body.

[B]

Yeah, it's a weird. It's a weird thing to be dressed up like the wet man is talking about and feeling unsafe.

[A]

Yeah. You don't know what you need to feel safe.

[B]

I don't. I don't know.

[A]

Yeah. How are you supposed to get there then?

[B]

How do you go through life and not feel like every instance is a test?

[A]

I just. Who would be testing me?

[B]

Oh, God, everybody, dude.

[A]

To what end? Everybody? To what end?

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

What's the point of everybody testing you?

[B]

It's endless to see if you're smart, to see if you're good, to see if you're loyal, to see if you're funny. To see if you're care about people. To see if you. Everything. Everything. They're testing everything all the time.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Is it?

[A]

Yeah, sounds interesting. I'm not an expert.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it sounds like you're trying to prove those things to yourself. So you take everything as a test so you can feel adequate and good enough. That's what it sounds like to me. But I'm not an expert.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Man.

[B]

Now I could agree or disagree with you, but I don't know anything about myself.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Could be.

[A]

I know you know. I do know. Do you want to know why I felt sad?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, yeah, the way you're talking, like you know me. Well, you know the Answer to that. And then. Yeah, no, 10 times out of 10, that's impossible. You're. You're saying like, I believe that you believe that about you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's a bummer, man. That you look at a task and you go, that's impossible. No way I could do that. 10 times out of 10. Nope.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who the fuck taught you that? Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it?

[B]

Oh my God.

[A]

Are you?

[B]

Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybody else. Sure.

[A]

Okay. All right, well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone. Okay?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's called the light phone.

[B]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[A]

The light. Yeah, you've seen me use it. The light phone. Also known some people call it a dumb phone. Anyway, it's a smartphone, it has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation. It has a calendar and a flashlight.

[B]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[A]

Kinda. Oh yeah, I love that. It has a pretty cool camera too. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got a dope camera on it. It's got a camera. Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough, they sent us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone three use code. Secondhand therapy. Be all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[B]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[A]

Stop your doom scrolling. Be more present in life. Link down below. Promo code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world. I know it was your mom, but she just taught you that she had to do it.

[B]

So.

[A]

Now. Did I just do the thing that you've been doing and just answering the question myself?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Am I being a hypocrite? Of course. I do it a lot.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You? Yeah.

[A]

You don't think you can do anything, man. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we've been talking about that for two years. What'd you learn about it? Give me some definitions, asshole.

[B]

I have been doing things. Things that I haven't thought I'd be able to do.

[A]

Oh yeah? Let's hear the context. What do you got?

[B]

I got no context for you. You don't need it.

[A]

Hey, you know what? The bear cubs might. Let's hear it.

[B]

But I know that there are things.

[A]

Good for you. Nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You sad?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

You look sad. I can't tell.

[B]

I didn't realize. I don't know. I didn't realize how unsafe I felt in every scenario in my life. That's a new discovery.

[A]

And you're not. You're obviously not talking physically unsafe.

[B]

No, emotionally, yeah.

[A]

That makes sense. Somebody who's operating at an 8 at anxiety. Yeah. Your baseline of anxiety is.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Quite high.

[B]

Through the roof, dog. Yeah. To the window. To the wall. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Therapy today, which we are not going to talk about on this show ever. Today's topic. What.

[A]

What's happening? You know we're being recorded.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

But I'm saying I'm gonna tell you just a little bit.

[A]

I was like, oh, he blacked out.

[B]

Tell you a little bit about what we're not gonna talk about ever.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because it dealt with some sexual trauma when I was young. And so. But the correlation here is being unsafe in those scenarios and how it's carried through through relationships in my adulthood. And I didn't realize the theme of most of my relationships has been feeling unsafe with his best friend and tag team partner. Abandonment.

[A]

Who's best friend and tag team partner.

[B]

Unsafety. Unsafety. Un. What's the word?

[A]

Unsafe.

[B]

Is it just unsafe?

[A]

I don't know. I guess.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, tonight's a little heavy. Connecting those worlds and coming to the realization of how unsafe that I've actually felt in my life and the protection that I have up and how it's a. To fight against.

[A]

I have a question.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

I left a pause there in case you want to edit this out. We have talked about whether or not there has or had been sexual trauma from your youth. And you have always said no. And you even told me one time you asked family members and they all said no. Was that a lie?

[B]

No, I didn't realize. Something with sexual trauma.

[A]

You learned that today.

[B]

Yeah. Because I've understood what I will say.

[A]

You don't have to say anything if you don't want. I was just hung up on. Yeah, I didn't know if that was just something you weren't ready to talk about or there was like no memory hit you like you came back online today.

[B]

No, it wasn't that it came back online. It's just I've never. I've. I've never said it out loud even to myself. I've buried it pretty deep. Nobody knew about it because it wasn't a family member. It was a friend. And I didn't know what it was at the time. And bringing it up today in therapy was the first time I've ever. I've never even journaled about it. I've always just, like, written it off as, like, that's a thing that happens. Nothing to see here. And then talking about it in therapy today was like, oh, hey, man.

[A]

Not normal.

[B]

Not normal. Pretty young. And then seeing how it has carried over into relationships was a big mind for me.

[A]

Is it somebody that's still in your life?

[B]

No.

[A]

Thank God, no. That would have been a toughie for you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyways, how's your week?

[A]

And we know that. Grr. Jesus.

[B]

That's a bear.

[A]

It's not.