Secondhand Therapy | Episode 98

"Fighting Stigma & Misinformation with Sophie Nir" (Sept 8, 2025)

Overview

In this episode, hosts Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone talk with Sophie Nir, head of the Abortion Positivity Project, for an in-depth discussion about abortion stigma, misinformation, and how language and cultural frameworks shape public perception and policy. With humor, honesty, and transparency, the trio explores why abortion remains taboo, how shame perpetuates harmful narratives, and strategic ways to reframe the conversation for greater freedom and access.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Abortion Is Taboo—And Who It Benefits

• The Hosts admit their own perspective and position as straight white men and thank Sophie for being willing to educate, clarifying it's not her responsibility.
  • "It is not your responsibility to educate us, but we're going to be asking a lot of questions." (04:35, Louie)
  • Sophie: "It is my literal job to educate you and anyone about abortion and abortion advocacy. So I'm very, very happy to do it..." (04:53)
• Abortion's taboo status serves those who want to restrict access, not the broader public; over 80% of Americans support abortion in at least some cases.
  • "Who does abortion being such a taboo thing benefit?... it is the very minority who is trying... to undermine abortion access." (05:16–06:32, Sophie)
• Control—not religion—is the goal, especially over women’s lives and autonomy; anti-abortion arguments have moved beyond religion toward a new traditionalism and "red pill" ideology.
  • "Controlling women's bodies in order to control women's lives... so they do not have options other than to settle for whatever a man is willing to give to them." (07:00, Sophie)

2. Rise of Misinformation and How to Combat It

• Modern anti-abortion arguments rely on viral misinformation, especially about "late-term" abortions.
  • Michael: "The misinformation is literally like at birth they're killing babies... it’s just straight up misinformation..." (09:01)
  • Sophie: "Only 1% of abortions in America take place after 20 weeks. So it is complete misinformation... The way to combat this is... embracing the language that all abortions are valid." (09:39–11:26)
• Strategy: Shift the conversation to recognize that any abortion is valid, regardless of the circumstance.
  • "If someone is pregnant and does not want to be, there is no reason for the government to force them to be pregnant against their will, period, full stop. I couldn't care less." (11:17, Sophie)

3. Abortion is Healthcare—and More

• There's disagreement about the phrase "abortion is healthcare"—is it accurate, or even necessary, as a talking point?
  • "Abortion is health care. Abortion is morally neutral, and yet a tremendously positive... impact on our society..." (11:37, Sophie)
  • Louie: "Abortion's healthcare, I'm like, okay, even if it isn’t—mind your business." (14:26)
  • Michael: "For me, it resonates because it’s a counterpoint to that argument..." (14:40)
• Reframing: Abortion is freedom, a social good, and not inherently tragic or exceptional.
  • "Abortion positivity is a strategic framework for understanding abortion without any stigma or judgment." (12:37, Sophie)
  • "Abortion is so common... It's so standard. It's barely exciting." (28:23, Sophie)

4. Language Matters: Pro-Abortion vs. Pro-Choice

• Using "pro-choice" and "pro-life" entrenches stigma and the language of the opposition.
  • "When we use that language [pro-choice, pro-life] we are speaking within a stigmatizing and abortion-negative framework..." (20:55, Sophie)
  • Preferred terms: "Pro abortion," "pro abortion access," and for opponents "pro forced birth," "anti-abortion extremists."
    • "The quote unquote pro-choice movement has already failed." (22:04, Sophie)

5. Addressing Shame & Making Abortion Boring

• Shame is taught by society, not inherent to the act.
  • Sophie: "Shame is taught. If anyone listening is harboring shame around their abortion, I want to say... any choice... is the best one, and you should feel comfortable and empowered in that choice." (25:56)
• "Safe, legal and rare" is an outdated, harmful frame.
  • "If something should be rare, that means that there is something wrong with it. If you get one, you are now in a category of rareness, which we know is wholly untrue." (26:56)
• Normalize abortion as common and barely noteworthy.
  • "Abortions are barely exciting." (28:31, Michael, Sophie, Louie—light-heartedly advocating for a T-shirt slogan)

6. Men’s Role in Abortion Advocacy

• Men often feel excluded or unsure about their right to participate; this is a misconception.
  • Sophie: "A woman in your life has experienced an abortion, and if they didn't tell you about it, it's because they don't trust you... It is your fight, too." (31:52)
  • "We demand that men have a supportive and pro abortion opinion." (55:22, Sophie)
• Best support is interpersonal—be present, affirming, and involved both one-on-one and systemically.
  • "The best thing you can do is be clearly and obviously supportive... get yourself comfortable with the idea that you are not separate from the national abortion conversation..." (29:39–31:17, Sophie)

7. Real Barriers: Access, Policy, and Internal Movement Divisions

• Despite majority support, access is at its historical worst due to restrictive laws, especially post-Dobbs.
  • "Access has never been lower... The stories that we're seeing out of states with punitive bans are so insidious, so evil, so, so, so horrible." (36:00, Sophie)
  • Medication abortion and travel remain options but come with obstacles and legal/personal risk.
  • [Resource note] Organizations like AidAccess and Plan C can help access medication abortion regardless of state. (36:00)
• Internal critique: The pro-choice movement has become a barrier itself, trapped by outdated strategies.
  • "I really believe... the primary barrier to removing abortion stigma is the quote unquote, pro-choice movement." (41:52)
  • "If I wanted to align myself with a team that had already lost, I would root for the Mets." (22:04, Sophie, humorously)

8. Achieving an Abortion-Positive Culture

• The end goal is a world where abortion is safe, legal, affordable, accessible, and stigma free. (41:18, Sophie)
• Comprehensive cultural and linguistic change is necessary, starting with those already supportive and moving outward—social waves, like the shift in LGBTQ+ acceptance.
  • "We don’t need to convert anti-abortion people—the numbers are already in favor. People need to realize the abortion stigma they’ve been taught doesn’t align with their own values." (49:03–50:09, Sophie)
• Strategic recommendations:
  • Stop using "pro-choice"; start saying "pro-abortion."
  • Call opponents "pro-forced birth" or "anti-abortion extremists."
  • Challenge arguments against abortion by focusing on forced birth: "Are you comfortable with the government forcing someone to be pregnant and give birth against their will?" (66:31, Sophie)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Who does abortion being such a taboo thing benefit?" (05:16, Sophie)
• "Only 1% of abortions in America take place after 20 weeks. The vast majority are severe medical complications." (09:39, Sophie)
• "Abortion positivity is a strategic framework for understanding abortion without any stigma or judgment. Abortion positivity centers the positive impact and understands abortion as a social good." (12:37, Sophie)
• "Any abortion is completely valid... If someone is pregnant and does not want to be, there is no reason for the government to force them to be pregnant against their will." (11:17, Sophie)
• "Abortions are barely exciting." (28:39, recurring theme for comic relief and normalization)
• "Shame is taught." (25:56, Sophie)
• "A woman in your life has experienced an abortion, and if they didn't tell you about it, it's because they don't trust you." (31:52, Sophie)
• "If you are talking to a person who does not believe that your life, or the life of any woman, is valuable enough to not force against that... you don't want them in your life. And we don't need them on our side because we have the numbers." (66:49, Sophie)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Abortion’s Taboo Status — 05:08–07:25
• Modern Misinformation & Late-Term Myths — 09:01–11:26
• Language: “Abortion Is Healthcare"/"Social Good” — 12:36–16:46
• Moving Beyond “Pro-Choice” — 20:55–22:10
• Shame & Normalizing Abortion — 25:53–28:47
• Men’s Support & Involvement — 29:24–31:52
• Personal Stories: Hosts’ Experience w/ Abortion — 32:33–35:39
• Barriers to Access in the U.S. — 36:00–37:23
• Movement Strategy & Endgame — 41:18–44:30
• “Barely Exciting”—Comic Reframing — 28:28–28:42
• Challenging Arguments Against Abortion — 65:55–66:49
• Global Perspective & U.S. Regression — 45:14–46:59

Final Thoughts

This episode advocates for actively destigmatizing abortion through language, personal storytelling, and challenging ingrained narratives both personally and culturally. It’s a candid conversation acknowledging both emotional and political complexities, ultimately laying out a strategic, hopeful vision for a stigma-free future.