← Secondhand Therapy
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- [00:00]
A
Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. Jesus.
- [00:07]
B
That's a bear.
- [00:08]
A
It's not. Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And, you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.
- [00:24]
B
Right.
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A
If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use BetterHelp recently? Yes, I have.
- [00:31]
B
I just signed up.
- [00:32]
A
How'd it go?
- [00:33]
B
It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch like a. There's like two or three pages of people that I got to choose from and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago.
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A
Nice. Have you used their journal feature?
- [00:48]
B
I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.
- [00:53]
A
Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.
- [01:05]
B
Yeah.
- [01:06]
A
So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just, it's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better help's a good option. And they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys. If you're listening and you want to start with BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Getting therapy, you know, it's great.
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B
Check it out.
- [01:52]
A
Hello, my little bear cubs. And welcome back. Welcome to Secondhand Therapy.
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B
Oh, we're glad you're here.
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A
We need to remind you that we are not therapists. Nope. We are not experts.
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B
That's right.
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A
This is not a substitute for therapy. Never. And this is not professional advice in any way. Nailed it. Thank you for being here. We have a guest.
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B
We do.
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A
We have Sophie near joining us remotely from New York City.
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B
New York City, baby.
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A
She is the head of the abortion positivity project and she's here to talk about all things abortion.
- [02:26]
B
Yes.
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A
We're pro abortion in this house.
- [02:28]
B
We are.
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A
So we wanted to get someone on here to talk about it that actually knows what they're talking about. You're welcome. Yep. Hey, so we have a guest. You already know that wherever you're hearing this, Spotify, Apple, whatever, please follow the show. Please leave a five star review if you remember the rules. It's a five star review or go your mother now.
- [02:49]
B
Be nice.
- [02:50]
A
I was, oh, okay. I'm giving them a choice.
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B
That's true.
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A
You're gonna hear some ads.
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B
So many ads.
- [02:59]
A
Leave a five star review and then go to Patreon. Because Patreon, you're gonna get early episodes. You're gonna get ad free episodes. That's right. And then if you're just like, God, I love these guys. The big tattooed one's such a prick. And the other one is. He's crying and stuff. I'd like to see more.
- [03:13]
B
I'd like to see him cry more.
- [03:15]
A
Yeah, there's a. We do another podcast together that is not therap. A lot of fun. A lot of the times it is therapy related. Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff on there. It's a good way to support the podcast. So if you like what we're doing, consider joining Patreon. We would appreciate it. Another way to support the podcast, we have merch available. Secondhand therapy. Pod.com emotional support hoodies. It's almost hoodie season, baby. Season, baby.
- [03:39]
B
And we have the most comfortable hoodies in the game.
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A
The emotional support hoodies and the floral hoodie. It's the same product. Just.
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B
Yeah.
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A
So thick and cozy.
- [03:48]
B
Yeah.
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A
They almost call that the Lou Bear. No, nobody calls it that. The one guy did. And you know what? We're trying to figure out some tie dye emotional sport hoodies. Working on it. No promises. Trying. You can also contact us all that is in the information below. The episode Here is episode 98 with Sophie near. We hope you enjoy it. Hello, my little bear cubs.
- [04:24]
B
And welcome back secondhand therapy.
- [04:35]
A
So we're gonna be asking a lot of questions because we are too straight white men. And I would like to put it out there that we do understand it is not your responsibility to educate us, but we're going to be asking a lot of questions.
- [04:53]
C
I love that. I appreciate that. It is not the responsibility of women to educate you. It is my literal job to educate you and anyone about abortion and abortion advocacy. So I'm very, very happy to do it and I'm really excited to be here.
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A
Beautiful. So what's. Why is abortion such a taboo thing? You know?
- [05:17]
C
Yeah, well, I mean, that's a great question, but I'm going to ask it a little differently, which is who does abortion being such a taboo thing benefit?
- [05:26]
B
Oh, I like that.
- [05:28]
C
And when we think about it that way, we really see how abortion stigma is. Is eroding abortion access. Even though abortion is overwhelmingly popular in America overwhelmingly popular.
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D
Right.
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C
Over 80% of Americans support abortion in at least some cases. So that is like, from a. From a polling perspective, that's like an a.
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D
Right.
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C
And yet we're like, in an absolutely terrible national abortion landscape, the worst that we've been in, in 52 years. So what the fuck is 1 and 2? Like, if abortion is such a taboo topic, which obviously it is, that's why we're here. It's what we're talking about. Like, who is benefiting from that. And it is the very people, the very minority, I should say, who is trying to and very effectively succeeding at undermining abortion access in this country.
- [06:32]
A
That's an interesting way to look at it.
- [06:35]
C
Thank you.
- [06:35]
A
I mean, we've. We've talked about it on this podcast a few times in that we get pushback from who you'd imagine we get pushback from. But that, I mean, abortion isn't. Or getting rid of abortion isn't about religion or children or life. That it just seems to be about controlling women's bodies 100%.
- [07:00]
C
Yeah. And the second piece of that that we're really starting to see rise on social media and TikTok specifically is like, controlling women's bodies in order to control women's lives specifically so that they do not have options other than to settle for whatever a man is willing to give to them.
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D
Right.
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C
Like, we see where this is like, the first generation of women who have any sort of choice option in their life at all.
- [07:36]
D
Right.
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C
And I think that, like, there is a movement, like, sort of colloquially referred to as the red pill movement, to convince young men that the reason that their life doesn't look prosperous like their. Like their father or their father's generation is the liberation of women. And if we can remove the liberation of women by controlling their bodies, then you will have the kind of wife that you saw growing up, one who does approximately 100% of domestic labor and child rearing and doesn't have freedom, financial, personal or otherwise, to leave.
- [08:20]
B
Yeah. I think, you know, even like, the. The terminology that trad wife is like, on the rise and things like that, there's like, traditionalism, which is oftentimes linked to religious backgrounds or whatever. But just the idea of traditionalism in general is a big movement that we're seeing in the last few years.
- [08:39]
C
Totally. And it's being, like, resold and repackaged to this younger generation in a different way than we saw it before. And I actually think that, like, what I would describe as like a younger millennial or Gen Z version of anti abortion extremism really isn't based in religious morality like we were used to growing up.
- [09:02]
B
Yeah, it seems to be more based in misinformation. Like the numbers of, you know, the big argument that I see coming is coming from that section or that, that that group or whatever is the, is the late term abortion numbers and things like that where the, the misinformation is literally like at birth they're killing babies and stuff. And you're like, what do you even talk? Like the numbers aren't even there. Like this is just straight up misinformation and they're getting away with it. How do you combat that? Like what are you guys doing to. Or is there a way to combat that?
- [09:39]
C
That's such a good question. And I think you've like really hit your, hit the nail on. Exactly. The thing that has like really dominated the abortion conversation around the presidential election last year was exactly, exactly, exactly that dynamic and narrative. And I will tell you, I will say two things in response to it. The first thing that I will say is that absolutely you are correct. It is wholly misinformation. The vast majority of abortions later in pregnancy are as a result of a severe, severe surprise medical complication. Only 1% of abortions in America take place after 20 weeks. So it is complete misinformation. The other thing that I will say is that any abortion is completely valid. It is not more moral or more valid to have an abortion in a tragic circumstance than it is to have one because you are pregnant and you don't want to be for any reason at all. So I say, and you know, we ran a campaign around this exact narrative last November or leading into last November, I would say is we. The way to combat this is to eliminate the parameters of the conversation entirely by really embracing the language that all abortions are valid. So I don't care what month of pregnancy a person is in. I don't care the reason that they want to access abortion care. If someone is pregnant and does not want to be, there is no reason for the government to force them to be pregnant against their will, period, Full stop. I couldn't care less.
- [11:27]
B
Why is that also connected to this abortionist health care like movement that's been happening recently? Is that kind of like under that umbrella?
- [11:37]
C
Yeah, I mean, I think so. I don't know that abortion is healthcare is a movement so much as it is just a genuine and true fact. Abortion is very much health care. I'll say. Just I'm, I'm Very much not a doctor or health care provider, but abortion is used as the treatment to a wide variety of medical conditions and pregnancy complications. Very, very wide variety. As well as in for, as well as. Because people do not want to be pregnant. And that is just as valid. So I think abortion is health care. Abortion is morally neutral, and yet a tremendously positive. Has a tremendously positive impact on our society and the freedom of liberation of women and everyone. Um, and when we talk about abortion positivity, is it okay if I introduce a little bit of abortion positivity, please?
- [12:36]
B
Absolutely. Yeah.
- [12:38]
C
All right, so just a little background. I'm going to give what we use as our definition of abortion positivity, but then I'll kind of explain it. So when we talk about abortion positivity, we say abortion positivity is a strategic framework for understanding abortion without any stigma or judgment. Abortion positivity centers the positive impact of abortion and understands abortion as a social good. So when we're talking about being a social good.
- [13:05]
D
Right.
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C
That means that it has a net positive impact on society. Abortion saves people's lives in many respects. It provides freedom for women and all people. And we see, we center the positive impact of that and really embrace active and intentional destigmatization through abortion positivity. So when we say abortion is health care, that is a basic fact. And then when we say abortion is a social good, that's when we're talking about the positive impact.
- [13:42]
B
Right? Yeah, I agree that abortion is health care. It just seems like that was kind of like the trendy thing. Like, I didn't hear that five years ago. And that's more I was referencing. Was just like that idea of that on the rise, the terminology.
- [13:58]
C
Does it resonate with you?
- [14:00]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
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C
That's why they use.
- [14:03]
A
It doesn't really resonate with me. To be honest.
- [14:06]
C
I will say it doesn't really resonate with me either. Like, I don't. I. It doesn't really resonate with me either. That's why when, like, I'm talking about abortion, I'll say, abortion is freedom. Abortion saves lives personally.
- [14:18]
A
Yeah.
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C
And, like, can I ask why it doesn't resonate? Why it resonates or why it doesn't? Either one.
- [14:26]
A
Oh, I just. I mean, abortions, healthcare, I'm like, okay, it. Even if it. Even if it isn't, like, mind your business. Like, I don't.
- [14:40]
B
Yeah, fair enough. For me. For me, it resonates because of the argument that I talked about earlier when they were like, oh, well, the misinformation that we're battling. It's like, no, it's health care. Shut up, it doesn't matter. Like this is just as important as any other treatment that anybody else seeks out for anything else that's going on. And so because of the argument of like oh, they're trying to do abortions at 1 years old or what and you're like, you're an idiot.
- [15:08]
A
I support that. I've been around some one year olds.
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B
That I support abortion all the way up to 8 years old.
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C
That's a controversial take.
- [15:20]
B
Yeah, but I think that count that counter that, that, that is the counterpoint to that argument which is like it's healthcare. Shut up. They are entitled to it. It is a right.
- [15:30]
C
Like I think I, I like fully agree with what both of you said. I think that like abortion being health care like means that it is inherently non controversial because like health care isn't controversial. And also I definitely believe that like I couldn't care less if abortion is like health care or not. I think like anyone gets to do what they want with their own body. Like yeah, right, tattoos are in healthcare but you still should have the right to get one or yeah, I think.
- [16:07]
A
That'S where I get hung up in the abortionist healthcare. Like there are instances where it is my partner's sister had trouble conceiving and was doing IVF and anyway had a miscarriage and ended up having to have an abortion procedure for health reasons. That to me I'm like, that's healthcare. But a person that has decided, that took precautions and still became pregnant has decided that they don't want to be pregnant. In my mind presently, that doesn't seem like health care.
- [16:47]
C
Oh, that's so interesting. Like, you know what I mean?
- [16:50]
A
Like I think they should be able to do it, but is sounds like it's in my head it's just a choice, it's not like a healthcare thing. But change, I would love for you to change.
- [17:00]
C
I think. Well, I think that first of all, I think plenty of health care is elective.
- [17:05]
A
Good point.
- [17:06]
D
Right.
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C
Like if you hurt your shoulder while doing all sorts of preventative measures to not hurt your shoulder and you hurt your shoulder.
- [17:13]
D
Right.
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C
That's if when you have your shoulder healed, fixed, whatever.
- [17:20]
D
Right.
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C
Like I think that that's still healthcare. Also pregnancy. Extremely dangerous. Extremely dangerous. Like one of the more traumatic things that a person can put their body through.
- [17:35]
A
For sure.
- [17:37]
C
I think it's health, healthcare. Abortion is healthcare from that perspective too. And also I 100% agree with you couldn't care less if it is or it isn't. It's your body and you get to have an abortion for any reason, under any circumstances. And the government should never ever, ever force someone to be pregnant against their will.
- [17:55]
B
Yeah, absolutely agree with that.
- [17:57]
A
Do you, either of you, talking to both of you, do you guys find that there's also a narrative that women are just getting abortions? Like it's a willy nilly, like easy decision that they make and an easy thing to do and yeah, it's like getting lunch.
- [18:18]
C
Yes, definitely.
- [18:20]
A
I don't understand that.
- [18:22]
C
So I think it's the idea of like women should be punished for having sex is sort of the funny thing.
- [18:29]
A
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [18:30]
B
Yeah. It's just the hate and the fear that goes along with controlling women. Yeah. Because if we allow them to get abortions, then they'll do it every Sunday after brunch like he said. So why would we allow them to do that? So it's about control, it's about fear, it's about hate, it's, it's all that stuff. It's ugly. It's ugly.
- [18:49]
C
And I think we hear language like that from a lot of people who would self describe as quote unquote, pro choice.
- [18:55]
D
Right.
- [18:56]
C
They would say I support abortion, but it shouldn't be used like this or whatever. And like the fundamental problem of that is when we talk about abortion like that we are undermining abortion access and abortion is a social good, abortion is a, is, you know, morally neutral and we are strategically trying to advance abortion access in this country. So when we talk about abortion like that, we create stigma, we create shame, we create fear, and we are using our own opponents language, doing them a favor and beating ourselves in our own fight.
- [19:39]
A
That makes sense.
- [19:40]
B
So in a time period we're in where abortion access is getting less and less accessible, what, what could we or should we be doing to stop that from happening?
- [19:53]
C
Yeah. So I would say the very first thing that I would ask someone to do would be think about the way that they are talking about abortion. They are thinking about abortion and they are advocating for abortion. And check within yourself, is the way that I'm talking about abortion aligning with my own goal of having abortion be safe, legal, affordable, accessible and stigma free?
- [20:17]
D
Right.
- [20:18]
C
Am I talking about abortion in a way that really aligns with the fact that I think abortion is a social good or am I so indoctrinated by abortion negative and stigmatizing narratives that I hear in the news and that I've grown up with my whole life that I'm actually undermining my own movement. I think that's the first step.
- [20:40]
B
Do you have any, like, this is where the educating us comes in. Do you have any key talking points or something that maybe we are saying that we don't know is, is hurting instead of helping? Are there common things that people say that for sure.
- [20:55]
C
I mean the, the biggest ones is, and you'll never ever, ever hear me say this phrase again. But pro life and pro choice, right. When we use that language, we are speaking within a stigmatizing and abortion negative framework rather than advancing our own movement. We are like, you know, we're staying within the parameter of a broken conversation rather than starting one that might actually work.
- [21:28]
B
So what is the alternative then to saying pro choice?
- [21:32]
C
So I very proudly say pro abortion, pro abortion, pro abortion access, pro abortion rights. The reason that I don't say pro choice, first of all, the phrase itself, pro choice, was really focus grouped to distance from abortion. And because I think abortion is a tremendously positive social good, I don't feel any need to distance myself from my own vocal support of abortion. Also, the quote unquote pro choice movement has already failed.
- [22:04]
D
Right.
- [22:04]
C
And if I wanted to align myself with a team that had already lost, I would root for the method. So.
- [22:10]
A
Or Hillary Clinton.
- [22:12]
C
Sure. You know, either one. So like there's so many reasons also, like when we talk about quote unquote choice, like there is no choice if we don't have access and we do not have abortion access in this country. So what kind of choice do people actually have if they can't actually get care? So it's really just language that I think doesn't serve the movement. And then in terms of the other one, the opposite word that people like to use. First of all, there is absolutely nothing supportive of life about anti abortion extremists. They support forced birth, they support the elimination of options and freedoms for women. So I just call them pro, pro forced birth or anti abortion extremists, because that's what they are.
- [23:07]
A
I was gonna say we call them cunts, but I didn't know if that was appropriate.
- [23:12]
C
That works too.
- [23:13]
A
Oh, lovely. Nailed it.
- [23:15]
C
Yeah.
- [23:16]
B
That is so interesting. I never thought about how it does distance or soften the idea of abortion. Saying pro choice before. That makes perfect sense. And it's just, I think it's just because it's just what we've been fed or I've been fed. You know, I'm 42 years old. So it was always just like pro choice is the Term. And so it's. Yeah, but I can see how the difference there. That's fucking great.
- [23:40]
A
Can you say more on what you mean by it being a social good?
- [23:44]
C
Oh, yeah, of course I can. So a social good is something that positively impacts society. So when we talk about women having freedom, women having options, people have, like. Of course, first of all, I will say people that aren't women have abortions, but also like cishet, men also benefit tremendously from the impact of abortion. Because if one example of many. But if your wife is going to die or be severely unhealthy, if she's not able to access abortion care and she isn't able to access that care.
- [24:27]
D
Right.
- [24:27]
C
Isn't your life extremely negatively impacted? So when we talk about being a social good, we mean having a positive impact of society, creating freedom, saving lives. Also, we have seen statistically, measurably, over time, the more freedom that people have over their own bodies, the more autonomy, the more they are able to thrive and therefore contribute to the society.
- [24:54]
D
Right.
- [24:54]
C
1973 was a huge turning point for women's liberation, but also in terms of being able to get and keep a job, have a growing career, have a family that is a size that is feasible for them.
- [25:10]
D
Right.
- [25:10]
C
There are so many. And all of these things are really great for society as a whole. So that's really what it means for abortion to be a social good.
- [25:18]
A
Okay, that makes sense.
- [25:19]
C
Yeah.
- [25:20]
A
What. What. So aside. Excuse me, aside from trying to change abortions and make them a more positive, more positively seen and accepted and becoming a social good. Outside of that, what do you think? What is your opinion on what can be done to help women get past the shame of either having had an abortion or making that decision for themselves going forward?
- [25:54]
C
Yeah. So shame is taught.
- [25:56]
D
Right?
- [25:56]
C
I mean, this is a. This is a secondhand therapy podcast. We know that shame is taught. So I think that first of all, like, if anyone listening to this is, like, harboring shame around their abortion, I want to say, like, any choice, any decision that you make for your life is the best one, and you should feel comfortable and empowered in that choice, and I hope you do. And like, I. I have nothing but love for you, and I hope you have nothing but love for yourself. So when we grow up, as we all have, in a society where the only messaging you're ever, ever, ever getting around abortion is. Abortion is so sad, but it should be an option. But it's so sad, but it should be an option. Even among the people who are like, quote, unquote, Advocating for it.
- [26:51]
D
Right.
- [26:52]
C
Y' all remember the Bill Clinton era? Safe, legal and rare.
- [26:56]
D
Right.
- [26:56]
C
Obviously, if something should be rare, that means that there is something wrong with it. If you get one, you are now in a category of rareness, which we know is Wholly Untrue. Over 25% of American women get abortions in their. Sometime in their life.
- [27:13]
D
Right.
- [27:13]
C
You are in. You are in grand company. So the more we stop spreading or the. The less we spread misinformation for the purpose of stigmatization, I think the more people will be liberated from the shame that has been drilled into their heads from a society that hates them.
- [27:33]
A
Yeah.
- [27:34]
B
That shame is so potent.
- [27:36]
C
Yeah.
- [27:36]
B
And it just gets passed down.
- [27:39]
A
Yeah. And I never even thought of. I don't recall the Bill Clinton thing, but yeah. Even just hearing it, the word rare, it, like, implies it's the exception to the rule.
- [27:51]
C
Totally.
- [27:51]
A
Which is.
- [27:51]
C
And that's so not the case. Abortion is so common. Yeah. Yeah. It's really gross and it's really alienating other, like very othering. And I think so, actually to your original question, like, another thing that I hope will be comforting to people who have had abortions and have abortions in the future is you are in such good company. So, so, so, so, so many people have abortion. It is really have abortions. It's not even. It's. It's barely exciting. It's so standard.
- [28:23]
A
Yeah. That's actually interesting when you look at it.
- [28:26]
C
Run of the mill.
- [28:28]
A
Yeah.
- [28:28]
B
Yeah. Barely exciting is great.
- [28:31]
A
Barely exciting is such a way to put it.
- [28:34]
B
That's the new motto for the new bumper sticker.
- [28:37]
A
I want that's a T shirt. Abortions are barely exciting.
- [28:40]
B
Barely exciting.
- [28:43]
A
That's great.
- [28:44]
C
So commonplace. It's barely exciting.
- [28:47]
A
Wow.
- [28:50]
B
So can we talk about the other part of the. The abortion couple there? So as a partner of somebody who has had abortions or this or that, like, what could or should they be doing or be doing more of or. Especially when it comes to the time of abortion and things like that, like. Because that's. There's no real checklist or anything. You know, it's just.
- [29:25]
C
It's.
- [29:25]
B
It takes two to tango. And oftentimes I feel like the weight is just left with the woman carrying it. So what can the partner be doing in those situations, both before and after those situations?
- [29:39]
C
Totally. So I think on the interpersonal level, the best thing that you can do is be clearly and obviously supportive.
- [29:51]
D
Right.
- [29:52]
C
Every. First of all, everything's going to be okay. That's really what matters most in this situation. Everything's going to be okay. And as long as you are there, supportive, affirming her experience, whether whatever emotional response she's having is an acceptable and appropriate one, and making sure that you are just constantly reassuring her and being there from an interpersonal perspective, I think that's the best thing that you can do from a more sociological or zeitgeist perspective. Now, before you ever get into a situation where you are directly supporting a partner through an abortion, get yourself comfortable with the idea that you are not, like, you are not separate from the national abortion conversation, you are not immune, and you are not exempt from the national abortion conversation. Abortion is about you, and you should be participating actively in abortion advocacy, abortion destigmatization and support of abortion. The more you think, I think, like, the earlier that we can get men in the mind frame of, I, this is about me. I have a role to play here in the support, in the public support of abortion, I think the better.
- [31:17]
B
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think there is a big gap there in discussions with men about abortions and because oftentimes I think that gap is just like, well, either what do I do or what does it have to do with me? And a lot of those cases where people just have either that misinformation or haven't had anybody in their friend groups or lives that have experienced it before. And so they're left kind of just being like, well, that's kind of her thing, or whatever. And so, yeah, how do we. How do we bridge that gap?
- [31:53]
C
Yeah. I mean, a woman in your life has experienced an abortion, and if they didn't tell you about it, it's because they don't trust you. But as I said, abortion, fairly exciting. Everyone's doing it left and right. It's New York's hottest club. So, like, I think, assume that it is very close to you and that it affects you directly, even if you don't see how it's affecting you directly. I promise you it is. And it is your fight, too.
- [32:27]
B
Yeah. What's going on over there?
- [32:33]
A
Taking it all in. I'm thinking.
- [32:38]
B
I've had.
- [32:41]
A
So I had a previous partner who had an abortion with one of her previous partners. And I was just, yeah, thinking about that when she shared that with me. Like, she was. You could tell she was so ashamed still. And I'm sorry to hear that. I was like, it's okay, she's dead, but that's a little heavy. That's true. And I've never shared this in the podcast, but my partner had an Abortion about a year ago, I think it was mine. Yeah. And that was, that was an emotional thing for me and I could see how emotional and how big of a decision it was for her. But even just knowing how I was feeling like there, I can't understand what she was feeling with it being her body. And I mean, even when you take all like, you strip the layers away and just biologically the way your body or a woman's body responds to being pregnant and those types of things, like, that's a hard thing to override.
- [34:17]
C
Yeah.
- [34:18]
A
And yes, think about that.
- [34:22]
C
Well, thank you for sharing that. I mean, I do want to say that, like, when we talk about abortion positivity, it is a strategic framework for abortion advocacy. It is not in any way about policing anyone's individual experience or feelings around their own abortion, all of which are absolutely valid. But like when you were telling me that, I'm like, just like, thank God she was able to access that care. Because if you're in that emotional.
- [34:46]
D
Right.
- [34:46]
C
Think about if you were in that emotional state and you were making a decision, that for you was hard.
- [34:53]
D
Right.
- [34:54]
C
For many people it's easy for some, for many people it's difficult. I don't assign an emotional response to anyone. But. And then to not even be able to act, access that care or have to travel across state lines or, you know, all of like just overcome any, any amount of access barriers, financial, personal, it's just like, thank God she was able to, you know, access the care she needed.
- [35:21]
A
Yeah, yeah, we, we, we talked about that a lot because we were in California at the time, so very accessible. But yeah. Had it not been like trying to throw you in jail for like that, which is.
- [35:37]
C
Yeah.
- [35:38]
A
So crazy.
- [35:40]
C
Yeah. It's so scary and it's so hateful.
- [35:43]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [35:45]
B
What about the people that are having trouble accessing abortions now with all the rollbacks and the rule changes and all those things? Like, what could, I mean, where do they go? What happens with them? Like, is there any information and where can they find it?
- [36:01]
C
Oh yeah, absolutely. So first of all, you can access abortion care in all 50 states through medication abortion, other organizations like AidAccess Plan C that will help you to access abortion, medication no matter where you live. There are tremendous barriers. Right. I mean, the stories that we're seeing out of states with these punitive bans are so insidious, so evil, so, so, so horrible. And I mean, what are we seeing? We're seeing like 10 year olds being forced to give birth. We're seeing people Bleeding out. We're seeing people get arrested for having miscarriages like left and right, which is just absolutely horrendous and tragic. I mean, there's two main ways that people still access abortion care. One is medication abortion, which can be delivered through the mail, and the other is traveling across state lines, which often has to happen in order to receive a procedural abortion. So people are both still able to access care and being absolutely terrorized. Yeah, it's really hard.
- [37:24]
A
How did you get into this? Like, this being your purpose or your thing that's driving you forward?
- [37:31]
C
That's such an interesting question. I mean, I will say, like, abortion is my. My great love. Like, I love abortion. I love working in the abortion space. I. My mom was very involved in, you know, the more. The more traditional, safe, legal and rare pro choice movement when I was growing up. And I. I think that had a tremendous influence on me. But, like, I think that I, as a person, since. Since we're doing therapy, I think that I am a per. I, as a person am really, really motivated by the liberation of women. Like, I see myself as just a feminist first before absolutely anything. And I feel like for that reason, abortion is just my calling.
- [38:21]
B
What does it do for your mental health to be not only hearing kind of what we were just talking about, some of these horrific stories with the rollbacks and things like that, but also just the heart to hearts that you're having and seeing and listening to with women about abortions and things like that. I mean, it's a. It's a. It's a environment where you stories are being shared all the time. What does that do for your mental health?
- [38:46]
C
And I would say, like, I find the one on one to be an honor. It's the, like, lack of cultural change that I think erodes my mental health much more. Like, I find it so frustrating to, like, bang my. Feel like I'm banging my head up against a wall. Like, if I hear someone's story about, like, a traumatic experience they have having an abortion versus if I'm having a conversation with someone and they're telling me that, like, we must continue to use the failed language of the quote unquote, pro choice movement. Like, I find the second one makes me not want to do this work and wants to make me, like, curl into a ball and take more Prozac. More. Yeah, you know, like, it's like, not even the mental toll of the work. It's the frustration of feeling like we're not moving in the right direction in the speed I want to is it.
- [39:46]
A
Stressful or anxiety inducing? I mean, on a personal level even, you're kind of putting a target on your own back. Spearhead this whole thing. Does that weigh on you a lot?
- [40:00]
C
There were years when my lawyers told me that I couldn't go to Texas, so my friends would all go to gymnastics nationals in Texas and I would stay home. That sucked.
- [40:13]
A
You didn't miss Texas sucks.
- [40:16]
B
Yeah, exactly.
- [40:18]
C
You know, we have great partners in Texas, but their laws are punitive. Let's go with that.
- [40:27]
A
Unreal. Yeah, Nice way to put it. Yeah.
- [40:29]
C
Yeah. So I. Does that weigh on me? I feel very safe. Is that extremely naive? I live in New York. I, you know, privileged. And I feel very lucky to, you know, also the other thing is I'm not a healthcare provider. And what we're seeing is people are really going after healthcare providers in a way that's horrendous and outrageous, but not advocates yet. So I don't know. I can't say that specific thing keeps me up at night, but maybe it should.
- [41:09]
A
So what's the, what's one, what is the end game? And two, do you believe it's attainable?
- [41:19]
C
So the end game is seeing the violent end of all abortion stigma and living in a world where abortion is safe, legal, affordable, accessible and stigma free. I think it's achievable. And I think that the people who are the actual barrier to that creating that world think that they're healthy, helping.
- [41:49]
A
People creating that barrier think that they're helping.
- [41:53]
C
I think like the primary, the primary barrier to like removing abortion stigma is like the quote unquote, pro choice movement. I really, I really believe that. And like, obviously they are. They think they're helping. They think that they're advancing abortion access. Obviously they're not advancing abortion access because abortion is access is in like an objectively terrible position. But that I find so frustrating, like seeing people undermining their own advocacy efforts with their language and with their stigmatization and their abortion negative sentiments. That drives me absolutely mad.
- [42:37]
A
Would you agree that the pro choice movement is a liberal agenda?
- [42:48]
C
Is a liberal agenda. I think that it is a liberal agenda in the 90s sense of the word.
- [43:01]
A
What about today? Whose agenda is pro choice?
- [43:06]
C
Almost no one. I mean, or at least like almost no one with power is. That's, that's really what I mean. Plenty of people identify as pro choice. I think, like when we are. I, I believe that the goals of the pro choice movement are just sort of antiquated and they exist in a pre. Dobbs world even, you know, way before that.
- [43:41]
A
And I don't know what that means. What is pre Dobbs?
- [43:44]
C
Oh, sorry. So the Dobbs decision was the Supreme Court case that ended Roe v. Wade and made abortion not be mandated legal.
- [43:56]
A
Understood, thank you.
- [43:57]
C
So that's when three years ago now, abortion went from being legal nationwide, though very. Still very inaccessible, to illegal in about half the country. So I think that. Yeah, I think that like that movement just hasn't really risen to the moment, acknowledged the ways that it hasn't. It very clearly hasn't worked and tried something new. So that's why I'm out here trying something new.
- [44:31]
A
Good for you.
- [44:32]
C
Thanks.
- [44:35]
A
I was wondering if it was a liberal thing because liberals are the worst organized.
- [44:40]
C
Like, oh, oh, oh.
- [44:41]
A
Like every change they try to implement is.
- [44:43]
C
You mean like a capital L liberal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yes, in the way that they like to play against themselves.
- [44:57]
B
We love. Yeah, liberals love that.
- [44:59]
D
Right.
- [44:59]
C
Isn't that like the thing.
- [45:01]
B
Yeah. To eat their own.
- [45:04]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [45:06]
A
I was thinking.
- [45:07]
B
I'm sorry, go ahead.
- [45:08]
C
No, like it's, it's like, it's so self defeating, which I feel like seems capital L liberal to me.
- [45:14]
B
Yeah, I was just thinking of, like, we keep talking about abortion in America, but internationally, how is abortion thought of and looked at on the international level? Like, is America just behind? Like, we kind of are in some cultural areas sometimes or every cultural area. Yeah, everything.
- [45:36]
C
You know, I mean, it depends on like, behind who.
- [45:40]
D
Right.
- [45:40]
C
Because there are like countries in this world where if you are found to have had an abortion, you'll be like, put to death. And there are also states in this country that are trying to do that. But there, it really depends. I mean, like in Ireland, abortion was legalized five years ago for the first time ever. So like, there is. I don't think there is really like a global race in the traditional sense. Across Europe, abortion access varies wildly, which is always fascinating to me. Yeah, I think, yeah, they're just unfortunately, like there just isn't like a specific rule. I do think, however, that America seems to be uniquely going backwards.
- [46:31]
D
Right.
- [46:31]
C
Like Ireland legalizing abortion for the first time five years ago or seven years ago. Now, like, that feels very delayed and very antiquated. But we legalized abortion nationally in 1973 and then illegalized it nationally, or we didn't illegalize it nationally. Excuse me, we un. Legalized it nationally. So, you know, we are going backwards, which is a scary place to be in computer comparison to the rest of the world.
- [47:00]
A
Yeah. God, we're always going backwards, you know?
- [47:03]
C
Yeah, for sure. But, like, wealthy women, pre1973 would all go to London and access abortion here in the UK because it was legal there.
- [47:18]
B
That's crazy. You can still smoke on airplanes and stuff there that time. So you're just smoking on a plane, going to London, get an abortion.
- [47:26]
C
Yeah, I mean, it sounds chic if you think about it like that.
- [47:30]
A
Very chic.
- [47:31]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [47:34]
A
Interesting. I am. I'm kind of stuck on, like, your. Your end game. I don't know if I'm being a realist or a pessimist, but I. How do you. How do you fully remove the stigma?
- [47:50]
C
Yeah. Okay, so first of all, like, you could totally be a pessimist because I actually think that abortion positivity, despite the name, is sort of a pessimistic movement because it's really fundamentally based in the idea that, like, no one is good on abortion. Like, the pe. Like the quote unquote, pro choice movement that has been sold as, like, the saviors of abortion are bad on abortion. The people who say they're bad on abortion are bad on abortion. That's everyone. So I don't really think that I, or I think that pessimism has a place here for whatever that's worth. How do you remove abortion stigma? So, first of all, the thing that you don't need is the numbers, because abortion already has the numbers. Abortion is overwhelmingly popular. That's why, like, an organization, like, when we do trainings, our trainings are all for people who already support abortion who want to do a better job at it.
- [48:47]
D
Right.
- [48:47]
C
We're not converting anyone who is anti abortion into someone who is pro abortion or abortion supportive because we don't need it. One, it won't work. But more importantly, we don't need to because we already have the numbers. So, like, that's one thing.
- [49:03]
D
Right?
- [49:04]
C
Like, we are starting from a much higher ground than we think we are. So I actually think that. And like, maybe this sounds cynical, but I think that what it will take to remove abortion stigma is first and foremost for people to embrace the strategy of abortion positivity.
- [49:24]
D
Right.
- [49:24]
C
It is a strategic movement. And then realize once they embrace the strategy that the abortion negativity and the abortion stigma that they've been taught is not in line with. With their own values. It's like a therapy process. Like, yeah, right. Like people who, like, we are taught stigma, we are taught shame. If we examine our internalized abortion stigma and think, does this align with my values? Does this align with the world that I am trying to create? Does this align with what I want to see? Poof, gone.
- [50:09]
A
So it sounds like. And you can correct me if I'm wrong, especially when you tie it to kind of a therapy process, then one would need to want to change their mind. No.
- [50:24]
C
Yeah. Yes. And people want to change their mind when the people around them have already changed their mind. Minds, Right. It's like a bowling pin. Like, people. Like, people have to want to change their mind, but they don't have to want to change their mind for its own sake.
- [50:42]
D
Right.
- [50:42]
C
People can want to change their mind because there is, like, a new wave that they align with and they want to be, like, part of the prevailing theory. People can change their mind because they are. Or people can want to change their mind because they are exposed to a new way of thinking about something for the very first time. They don't have to, like, have a deep, deep, like, desire to seek out this new, like, this new way of thinking and talking about abortion. If they hear about, like, they're listening to this podcast and, like, that's the only time that they ever, like, think about wanting to change their mind. Like, that can be enough.
- [51:21]
D
Right?
- [51:21]
C
Like, think about, like, think about the gay pride movement.
- [51:23]
D
Right?
- [51:24]
C
Think about, like, since, like, we were in high school, school, like, how much, like, social acceptance of queerness has changed.
- [51:35]
A
Yeah.
- [51:36]
C
It's a wave. It's like, it is a cultural. It is like, it is a cultural shift, and people get sort of wrapped up in it.
- [51:48]
A
Yeah, that makes sense.
- [51:50]
B
I was thinking earlier about, like, the shame that gets passed down and is still getting passed down and passed around. I'm wondering in what circles that is more dominant. Do you think it's with females shaming females, or do you think it's males shaming females? Because I know that evil white men are in charge of the laws, and we know, like, where to. Like, that's like the top of the chain, right?
- [52:16]
C
Yeah.
- [52:17]
B
And they're not going to change their minds. They're evil white guys with a lot of money. They don't give a. But how do we in the circles, you know, is it more women continuing the shame or is it men continuing the shame or misinformation that's happening? Or do we know?
- [52:36]
C
I mean, that's such an interesting question. I think that, like, I think that there's a difference between, like, an interpersonal versus a societal viewpoint, if that makes any sense. Like, yeah, I don't actually think that the way that shame is taught is, like, Your mom is like, this is how you feel about abortion. You feel like abortion is shameful. Like, I think it's like the messages that we hear about abortion from men, from women, but, like, from the media, from television, from, like, just like random things you hear, like, from strangers, like headlines, salacious headlines that you see in the news when you're walking by. Like, I are like, political, political conversation around abortion and the way that, like, the news media shapes and doesn't push back against stigmatizing conversation in that arena. So I don't think that it, like, I just don't think it comes from like, one individual person. I do think that, like, the quote, unquote, pro choice movement is very, very, very much dominated by like, specifically, like, white women from the, like, safe, legal and rare type era.
- [54:03]
B
So, yeah, that makes sense.
- [54:04]
C
There's that. But I also think that men, like, particularly men who would, like, who would self identify as pro, quote, unquote, pro choice, have like, largely removed themselves from. From abortion conversation.
- [54:19]
A
Why do you think that is?
- [54:21]
C
I think there's multiple reasons. I think, like, I think part of partially it's because they feel like it's not for them, which I think I like. I think that's really sad. Like, I think that, like, there is, like, a message of, like, it's not about you, so you should stay out of it. And it is about you, so you should, like, lean into it. And. And I think it comes from both sides. Right. I think, like, men are receiving this message. And I also think that, like, men are like, a contentious issue that I don't have to weigh in on. Slay. Like, great. Yeah, like, I'm happy to take the pass. And like, really, I think a lot of men just, like, really don't see what it has to do with them.
- [55:09]
A
And there's also kind of an idea that men aren't allowed to have an opinion on abortion.
- [55:19]
C
Totally.
- [55:21]
A
Is that true?
- [55:22]
C
Oh, absolutely not. Men are, I would say, like, we demand that men have a supportive and pro abortion opinion. Like, men must have. Must men. Excuse me, men must support abortion. Like, it is an absolute imperative.
- [55:43]
B
Yeah, that's what I was kind of getting around to is how do we get more men active in the movement or talking about abortion? Because it's like, it seems like that is a big disconnect. And talking about earlier with what I was talking about earlier with, like, partners of people that are having abortions and even if you're not, like, how to advocate in those ways and like, how do we get men more invested in the discussion and more comfortable with talking about it and weighing in on it.
- [56:08]
C
Yeah. So abortion is the fundamental tenet of women's freedom. So, like, any man who cares about a woman or women in general, whether he knows that she has had or is having an abortion or not, like, caring about the freedom of women is, I hope, something that men can really relate to. And also, like, particularly in this political climate, I hope that men feel called to, like, really fight back against the way that, like, women and other marginalized people are being targeted. And this is, I think, one of, you know, one of the potential first steps to that. I mean, what do you think y' all are men. You're having conversations with men all the time. I'm way more interested in what you have to think.
- [57:08]
A
I hate talking to men. I don't.
- [57:10]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [57:12]
A
No, I. I gravitate. I've gravitated toward relationships and friendships with women my whole life. I don't. I have a really hard time relating to men.
- [57:22]
B
Yeah.
- [57:24]
A
What's your question? What do I think? About what?
- [57:27]
C
Like what? Like, how do you think men would be more inclined to engage or activate around abortion access or destigmatization?
- [57:41]
A
I think the majority of men, to. I think a point you made earlier on. I think it would. It would need to directly benefit them.
- [57:49]
C
Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yes. And it does.
- [57:54]
A
I know.
- [57:54]
C
Yeah, totally. No, but you're. I think you're right.
- [57:58]
A
I think a lot of men are, too. I don't. I mean, I'm just gonna. Stupid. I think. I think most men are too stupid to understand the. The benefits or the positivity around abortion until their partner gets pregnant and it's a mistake. I think before that point, a lot of men just can't see. See anything else. What do you think you're a man.
- [58:34]
B
Barely. Yeah, it's true. I think it's. Yeah, I think. I think that's true. I think men aren't gonna. Unfortunately, men aren't gonna get involved until it's at their fucking door. I also think that what you hit on earlier, too, talking to you, is the permission that it feels like.
- [58:56]
C
You.
- [58:56]
B
Know, am I allowed to speak about it or am I allowed to weigh in on this? Because it is such, like, a taboo subject in America still, that it. I think a lot of men are just scared to speak up because they don't want to ruffle feathers or they don't like anything else. Like, it feels like it's lumped in with, you know, you don't talk about politics and religion and money. And I think abortion gets lumped into that when you're in social settings, unfortunately. I think that's like the play safe. Yeah, exactly. I think men play it safe because it's not currently affecting them and even when it does, it still has like this taboo to it. So I think step one is removing the taboo of abortion in America.
- [59:42]
A
I don't agree with that. Really?
- [59:44]
B
I don't come from the Midwest too. So like abortion in the Midwest is A, you don't talk about it and B, it's like one of the seven deadly deadly sins. You know what I mean? Like it's seven deadly sins, but like.
- [60:00]
C
And yet everyone's still having them.
- [60:03]
B
Yeah, absolutely. But nobody's talking about it.
- [60:07]
A
See, I don't, I don't think for men it's a, it's more of a taboo thing. I think, I think there's, I think there's a thing in society where amongst men, if one man has a view or opinion that is pro woman that he's then like a. Oh, there's absolutely.
- [60:35]
B
That stigma as well.
- [60:36]
A
Yeah. So I think that that is what it, that's what my mind goes to more than a taboo thing when it comes to men.
- [60:42]
B
Oh yeah. I just, I just come from very conservative area, very small town area, all that stuff. And so like, if for me it's still like, it's very religious, very, you know, all conservative, all those things. And so the taboo lived in LA.
- [60:56]
A
For like 10 years more recently.
- [60:58]
B
Yes.
- [60:59]
A
But open yet for me.
- [61:01]
B
Oh, and I know you.
- [61:03]
A
Yeah.
- [61:03]
B
I just mean like what I'm thinking of in a cultural way. I still think of like back home because LA is so progressive, New York is so progressive. Like a lot of places I go are so progressive. But when I think of actual like cultural change and like what is, what is actually making movements and things like that, I think like what's going on back in Ohio and Indiana and these place, like, what are my friends talking about? How are they feeling? Like, what are people in my hometown feeling like? Has it reached them yet? I think that's my meter for a lot of social issues is like, has it reached Ohio yet? And that's kind of my gauge on a national scale because it is so conservative, so religious and I know those people so well.
- [61:51]
A
This is the wrong episode. I'm not going to challenge you on that. So to Sophie's point.
- [61:59]
B
Yeah.
- [62:00]
C
If.
- [62:03]
A
If step one is them wanting to change their mind.
- [62:06]
B
Yeah.
- [62:07]
A
Is that a real thing for the people that you know of in your experience?
- [62:10]
B
In Ohio, I think, like a lot of societal and cultural issues for back home, it, for me, I tend to give them the passive ignorance instead of hate. And so a lot of times, like, when it comes to even like, you know, I used to use like trans rights for an example. They're like, hey, can trans people use the restroom? And they're like, well, I've, you know, people like, I've never met or know anybody who is that. And so the ignorance is like, well, I don't know. And they're like shoving a microphone in their face. And some factory workers like, no. And it's not because they hate trans people. It's because they don't know any trans people. They've never even crossed. They never had to interact with anybody like that. So when it comes to something like abortion, it is so taboo to talk about still in those areas that like, when you ask them about it, I don't think it's like a hateful thing or like, this is like a damning thing. I think it's just ignorance of like, well, I don't know anybody who's ever had one. Nobody's ever talked to me about it. I don't know anything besides what I'm being told through media and this and that. And so I think step one is changing the narrative of how we talk about it. Like what she's saying, how we talk about it in the media and how it's displayed and fighting misinformation. Because these people, I feel these people that are. It hasn't reached yet, when it does reach them, it's so coded in misinformation and stuff that, yeah, they honestly don't know what to think about it.
- [63:48]
C
I wonder what would happen if someone asked the guy you're talking about, do you think that people should be forced by the government to be pregnant and give birth against their will?
- [63:59]
B
Right.
- [64:00]
A
Get out of the phone.
- [64:02]
C
And also, I mean, I'll just push back the tiniest bit. We know that abortion is overwhelmingly popular among like, essentially all demographics of people, like Republicans, Democrats, religious people, non religious people. Like, still, like, we'll look at Florida. Florida, obviously, like, sure, you're good. My, my parents live there. I know, like, right. No beacon of progressivism in, in Florida. And yet even though President. The president won the state of Florida, like overwhelmingly, the abortion referendum In Florida got 57% of the vote.
- [64:57]
D
Right.
- [64:57]
C
So clearly plenty of people who we would think of as being conservative or like have, you know, whatever traditionally anti abortion sort of demographics or principles that you'd Expect they're not.
- [65:17]
D
Right.
- [65:18]
C
So like, is the question that like, people aren't talking about abortion because they don't support abortion, or are people not realizing that all of their neighbors also support abortion because they're not talking about it?
- [65:33]
B
Exactly. Yeah.
- [65:36]
C
If you want to make like one strategic change, as I said, stop saying pro choice, Start identifying as pro abortion, stop using the phrase that the, the anti abortion extremists use to identify themselves and start identifying them as what they are, which is pro forced birth. Anti abortion extremists.
- [65:55]
D
Right.
- [65:56]
C
Also, and this is really important, okay? Like, any argument that you have ever heard against abortion can be very easily translated into an argument for forced birth. So if someone ever makes an argument to you against abortion, ask them if they're comfortable with that exact thing. But supporting forced birth. Birth. You know what I'm saying?
- [66:30]
A
I do know what you're saying.
- [66:31]
C
Yeah. If someone ever says to you, like, like, I'm only comfortable with abortion in these certain circumstances, you say, oh, so in other circumstances you are going to force someone to be pregnant and give birth against their will. And I bet they'll say, oh, no, that's not what I meant. But it is what they meant.
- [66:49]
A
What if they say yes?
- [66:50]
B
I say, what if they say yes, every life's a miracle, you know, then.
- [66:55]
C
Then we don't need them, right? Like, then we absolutely do not need them. If, if you are talking to a person who does not believe that like your life or the life of any woman or any person is valuable enough to not force against that, right? Like, if, if they think that like you or any person is an incubator and not a fully autonomous human, then you don't want them in your life. And we don't need them on our side because we, we have the numbers.
- [67:38]
A
And we know that.