I Don't Want to be Happy | #124

Summary

Podcast Summary: Secondhand Therapy – “I Don’t Want to be Happy” | #124

Podcast: Secondhand Therapy
Hosts: Louie Paoletti & Michael Malone
Date: April 6, 2026
Episode Theme:
This episode explores the complexities of happiness, personal branding, and the ongoing journey through emotional growth. With raw honesty and trademark humor, Louie and Michael unpack why happiness can feel unsafe or counter to their identities, delving into topics such as self-worth, service, codependency, and inherited family dynamics, particularly around emotional immaturity and control.

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1. Main Theme Overview

• Episode Focus:
  The duo confronts the idea that sometimes people build an identity around struggle or sadness and begin to question: “What if I let myself be happy?” The conversation circles around Michael’s realization that happiness feels threatening to his sense of being useful, rooted in his “sad boy”/“wanderer” personal brand and family upbringing.

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2. Key Discussion Points & Insights

A. Identity, Happiness, and Usefulness

• Michael’s Story:
  Michael recounts comments from friends and his therapist about how he cultivates an image of the “wanderer,” the “lone wolf,” even when he considers changing.

  • “You are the wanderer. That is who you are. Of course nobody’s inviting you to these things...” (Ken Garr, as recounted by Michael, [04:00])

• Therapy Challenge:
  Michael’s therapist challenges him:

  • “‘What happens if you’re happy?’ And without even thinking, I said, ‘Oh, I’m not—I don’t think I’ll be as useful.’” (Michael, [05:53])
  • The therapist suggests, “It’s interesting that you think you would be more useful as a mirror instead of as an inspiration.” ([07:53])

• Fear of Losing Brand & Belonging:

  • Michael worries happiness means no longer relating to his audience or feeling superior: “I don’t feel like I’m allowed to be happy.” ([09:28])
  • Happiness might signal to others “you think you’re better than them” or open doors for unwanted requests and expectations ([10:22]).

B. Inherited Dynamics: Family & Emotional Immaturity

• Service vs. Being Taken Advantage Of:
  Michael shares that his sense of service is genuine, but he fears being exploited the moment he shows happiness ([11:07]).
• Narcissism, Ego, and Fear:
  The co-hosts discuss how fear and learned self-importance can make one believe the world will take from you if you’re perceived as happy.
  • “There’s so much narcissism in that… there’s a lot of ego and self-importance in that.” (Co-host, [13:26])
  • Michael responds, “That feels like fear, not ego.” ([14:06])
• Trying to Unlearn Old Patterns:
  “How do you unlearn that?” ([13:00]) is asked repeatedly, underscoring how deeply ingrained these beliefs are.

C. Emotional Immaturity & Gaslighting

• Analyzing Parental Behaviors:
  The hosts go through worksheets on signs of emotional immaturity in parents ([19:02]), including:

  • Overreacting to minor things
  • Lack of empathy
  • Defensive with disagreements
  • Not being self-reflective or open to new ideas

  Michael describes his own mother:

  • Frequent negative self-talk about her body and appearance ([26:32])
  • Michael’s attempts to “fix her feelings,” sparking a discussion on codependency ([27:54])

• Gaslighting vs. Lying:
  The co-hosts debate examples of gaslighting from parents, highlighting denials, distractions, and put-downs.

D. Control, Curiosity, and the Need to Help

• Helping Without Being Asked:
  The hosts reflect on their inclination to help (control) and whether it’s rooted in discomfort or genuine care:

  • “I have just as much desire to be as controlling as anybody else.” (Co-host, [32:51])
  • Michael wonders: “Do you never have the urge to help people that don’t need your help?” ([32:17])
  • Both agree it often stems from discomfort with others’ struggle, not just altruism.

• Household Examples:
  Discussion of trivial scenarios—like dishwasher loading—becomes a metaphor for control vs. acceptance.

  • “Just because that’s not the way I would do it, it’s not wrong.” (Michael, [38:29])

E. The Inheritance of “Being Needed”

• Mothers and the Role of Being Needed:
  The hosts reflect on their mothers’ tendencies to step in rather than let the child struggle, linking it to their own difficulty with happiness and self-worth:
  • “I think that was my mother’s biggest fear… Not being needed.” (Michael, [47:47])
  • Co-host turns it around: “What will Michael do if nobody needs him?” ([48:04])—a moment that nearly brings Michael to tears ([48:13]).

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Identity & Usefulness:

  • “I don’t necessarily like being miserable or unhappy, but what I do enjoy is… helping others in a way, through my pain… being able to be seen in what I’m going through.” – Michael, [06:43]
  • “It’s interesting that you think you would be more useful as a mirror instead of as an inspiration.” – Michael’s therapist, [07:53]

• On Happiness Feeling Unsafe:

  • “I don’t feel like I’m allowed to be happy.” – Michael, [09:28]
  • “Also, people can’t ask you for anything if you’re miserable… The minute you’re happy and doing well, well, that’s when your phone starts ringing.” – Michael, [10:58]

• On Family Patterns & Control:

  • “There’s so much narcissism in that… there’s a lot of ego and self-importance in that.” – Co-host, [13:26]
  • “Do you never have the urge to help people that don’t need your help?” – Michael, [32:17]

• Humor as Deflection:

  • “I’ll take a large medium.” – Michael, [01:29] (light moment)
  • On the dishwasher: “8 out of 10 times I open the dishwasher... things are placed in there wrong. They’re not wrong. They’re just not where I would place them.” – Michael, [39:23]

• Moment of Emotion:

  • “What will Michael do if nobody needs him?” – Co-host, [48:04]
  • “Hey. Almost cried. Yeah.” – Michael, [48:13]

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4. Important Segment Timestamps

• Identity and Happiness Discussion: [03:34]–[09:52]
• Therapist’s Insight (Mirror vs. Inspiration): [07:53]
• Branding and Fear of Happiness: [08:34]–[10:22]
• The Role of Service and Being Taken Advantage Of: [11:07]–[12:08]
• Family Dynamics & Narcissism: [13:21]–[14:41]
• Assessing Parental Emotional Immaturity: [19:02]–[24:22]
• Gaslighting & Worksheet Exploration: [24:29]–[29:38]
• Codependency & Trying to Fix Parental Feelings: [27:54]–[31:15]
• Control, Help, and Curiosity: [32:17]–[34:39]
• Dishwasher Metaphor & Acceptance: [38:29]–[41:14]
• Parenting Patterns – The Need to Be Needed: [47:23]–[48:13]

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5. Tone and Takeaways

• Tone:
  As always, the episode is deeply honest and laced with self-deprecating, observational humor. Louie and Michael oscillate between unfiltered self-reflection and playful banter, creating a safe but challenging space for talking about mental health.

• Key Takeaways:

  • Personal identity can become entwined with struggle, making happiness feel unsafe.
  • Control (helping, giving advice) often stems from discomfort or learned roles, not always pure goodwill.
  • Childhood dynamics, especially with emotionally immature parents, shape adult behaviors and relationships.
  • It takes active, ongoing work—and acceptance that “things take time”—to unlearn inherited beliefs around happiness and worth.

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For listeners:
This episode is a must for anyone interested in the messy, funny, and totally human process of learning to let go of old stories, accept happiness, and rewrite inner narratives. The conversations are open, vulnerable, and delivered in a way only two best friends can manage—through laughter, challenge, and care.

Transcript

[Michael Malone]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod hello, my little

[Co-host]

bear cubs, and welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy. We need to remind you that we are not therapists, we are not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way.

[Michael Malone]

That's right.

[Co-host]

We appreciate you being here. And if you would like to support the podcast, that would be stellar. Patreon.com Secondhand therapy pod for free episodes and much more bonus content, please check it out. We have merch available secondhand therapy pod.com if you would like to donate money to women's reproductive resources, you can do so via a purchase@vasectomy farms.com.

[Michael Malone]

thank you. Oh, go ahead. I was going to say, if you want to contact us, you can also do that.

[Co-host]

Yeah, you can. It's all below.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

What, is that important to you?

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, I like getting mail.

[Co-host]

You can contact us. It's below. That's it. Thanks for being here. Follow the show. Leave a five star review. We appreciate you. If you're interested in having the best time of your life, you should go ahead and check out our new sponsor, Psychic Source.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, buddy, I cannot wait. Dude, I'm trying to talk to dead people. Dude, do they do that?

[Co-host]

They do mediums. They got mediums.

[Michael Malone]

All right, I'll take a large medium.

[Co-host]

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[Michael Malone]

Okay, all right.

[Co-host]

Talk about my love life.

[Michael Malone]

Trying to see some. Some. Maybe some road bumps.

[Co-host]

Just seeing if it's gonna be clear skies. And it's not. Now, I did the other 20 on just like a spiritual thing. See where I'm at? Let me guess, you're gonna do a medium.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, my God, I can't wait.

[Co-host]

All right, well, if you want to talk to a psychic, you can do that again. Trypsychicsource.com sht10 you get 40 minutes for under $20. Do it and then DM us because I want to hear how it went.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, I can't. I. Please, please. DM us.

[Co-host]

Oh, God, it's so much fun.

[Michael Malone]

I want the tea.

[Co-host]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back.

[Michael Malone]

Secondhand therapy. And we know that we've been talking about identity lately, the last couple sessions. Oh, boy. And I got. I got a little pushback on something which was about happiness and about identity and things like that. And, like, when Ken Garr was here

[Co-host]

a few weeks ago, shout out to Ken.

[Michael Malone]

We were talking about, I don't know, there was something happening. And I was like, oh, I would love to go to that. And he was like, you would? And I was like, yeah. I was like, nobody ever invites me to that. I don't know, some kind of, like, comedian, like, brunch or meetup thing or something like that.

[Co-host]

I'm with Ken. Very surprising.

[Michael Malone]

I was like, I would love to do that. And he's like, you would? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, okay. And I was like, I never get invited to these things, like festivals or, like, brunches or whatever. And he just kind of like, let me rant for a minute. And he stared at me. And he goes, you're Michael Malone. And I go, okay. And he goes, you're the wanderer. And I go, what? And he goes, yeah, you are the lone wolf. You are the wanderer. That is who you are. Of course, nobody's inviting you to these things. And I was like, is that what people think? And he's like, you've made people think that that's who you are. He's like, there's nothing wrong with it. He's like, but it feels like you've gone out of your way to be alone. And I was like, okay. And I started unpacking that with my therapist a little bit because I was talking to another friend of ours, and they said the same thing. And they were like, whether it's either subconsciously or conscious decisions, you have made these decisions or whatever, like, in your life that almost go against, like, the brand or the identity of who you are. Even when you, like, are trying to make these changes or shifts, like, it's almost like you won't allow yourself to, like, do those changes because you need to protect the brand. And the brand is loner, wanderer, loner, Sad boy. Sad boy.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. And my therapist. This is the pushback I got. He said, what happens if you're happy? And without even thinking, I said, oh, I'm not. I don't think I'll be as useful.

[Co-host]

What?

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, yeah. And he. And he was like, okay, talk about that. And I was like, okay. And he's like, useful how? And I was like, I don't. I don't necessarily like being miserable or unhappy, but what I do enjoy

[Co-host]

is.

[Michael Malone]

I don't know how to put it. Like, I like helping others in a way, through my pain, where it's like a mirror or being able to be seen in what I'm going through. I like being useful in those ways. Does that make sense?

[Co-host]

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. It's. I would say it makes a little more sense to me when you're talking about, like a one on one interaction.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host]

You kind of do it publicly.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you're not anymore, but go ahead. I'm not anymore.

[Co-host]

What, on stage?

[Michael Malone]

No. But I'm still vulnerable in the public eye.

[Co-host]

Sure.

[Michael Malone]

And my therapist goes, it's interesting that you think that you would be more useful as a mirror instead of as an inspiration

[Co-host]

banger. Good line.

[Michael Malone]

I said, what?

[Co-host]

It's a good line.

[Michael Malone]

He said, don't you think it would be helpful for others to look at you as an inspiration and think like, oh, you know, I followed him along this journey and now look how happy he is. Or look like, look at, you know, this or that.

[Co-host]

Yeah. But then the podcast is over.

[Michael Malone]

But, yeah, it's like, you're gonna end.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

And I haven't. I've never. I've never thought about being inspirational because that goes against the brand. I am the underdog. I am the outcast. I am the wanderer. I am the loner. I can't.

[Co-host]

Do you see yourself that way?

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host]

I have another layer, if you're interested.

[Michael Malone]

Sure.

[Co-host]

Well, let's say you start out, you know, sad boy like you are. People follow you on this journey, and then you get better.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I don't know. I think. You think that it will come off that you're better than them now.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, yeah, that's. That's exactly what we got into. Yeah. Yeah, I was. Yeah, that was. The other piece of. It was. Yeah. Commisery and everything else. Yeah, that was. That was the thing I brought up. I was like, yeah, that goes against everything that I was taught. I. I don't. I. And we've talked about this before, like, I. I don't feel like I'm allowed to be happy.

[Co-host]

Why?

[Michael Malone]

Uh, the papa.

[Co-host]

Yeah, tell papa why you can't be happy.

[Michael Malone]

You know why?

[Co-host]

Don't tell me, though.

[Michael Malone]

Um. You're just not allowed to be happy, man. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Open your eyes, though. He's gone.

[Michael Malone]

You're not allowed to be happy.

[Co-host]

Because what happens if you're happy?

[Michael Malone]

Because thinking. Yeah. It feeds exactly into what you're just saying. Like, it means that I feel like that I'm better than you. And also, this is also what I brought up in therapy. Not only does it mean that I am. I think I'm better than you or whatever.

[Co-host]

Open your eyes.

[Michael Malone]

I don't want to.

[Co-host]

Are you hiding? Does it feel safer with your eyes closed?

[Michael Malone]

Yes.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

All right.

[Co-host]

Shut up.

[Michael Malone]

Absolutely.

[Co-host]

Go to sleep. Tell me what's up.

[Michael Malone]

Let me take a nap. I'll tell you what's up.

[Co-host]

Take a napa.

[Michael Malone]

All right. Also, people can't ask you for anything if you're miserable. Yeah.

[Co-host]

If you're struggling along with them.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Because where I come from and how I was brought up, the minute you're happy and doing well, well, that's when your phone starts ringing. Oh, you're doing good. Oh, yeah. Hey, why don't you send me a little money? Why don't you do this for me? Why don't you come? Do you know, it's just. It's favors then. And then it's like, I'm barely. You know, I mean, like, the hint of happiness. People are like, let me have some of it. I barely have any of it.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

I'm barely getting by.

[Co-host]

That's confusing.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Why?

[Co-host]

I would also say a lot of the brand is I just want to be of service.

[Michael Malone]

Service, yes. But not taken advantage of. I'll help you, but don't. Don't come with just your hands out and, like, with anger and with your hands out. Anger and empty hands. Don't do that. Like, I'll help you.

[Co-host]

Who says they're coming with anger?

[Michael Malone]

Oh, it's not. Again, it's not like, traditional anger, where it's, like, you. It's anger and, like, oh, you think you. You think you're doing good, huh? It's like, oh, you think you're better than me? All right, all right, big shot. Are they saying, you help me with this?

[Co-host]

Are they saying that? Or is that just what you're hearing?

[Michael Malone]

I mean, that's how it comes. That's. That's the language of commisery. Right? That's what you're trained to think of. Like, these people think of you differently. They're looking at you not in inspiration or awe or anything like that or even with, like, happiness. It is with. How. How do I bring this guy back down? How do I get him back down

[Co-host]

here so good stuff happens to you and Then the universe is coming to get it.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Hey, how do you unlearn that, Huh? Yeah, yeah,

[Co-host]

yeah, dude.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, man.

[Co-host]

There's so much narcissism in that, and it's like. I know.

[Michael Malone]

I.

[Co-host]

It's not your fault. I know. Yeah. I don't know how you undo it.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. I don't. I mean. Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host]

There's just. There's a lot of. Yeah. A lot of, like, self import. There's a lot of ego and self importance in that.

[Michael Malone]

That's interesting. I don't see it as ego because I'm not thinking that I'm better than they're viewing me that way or that's what I've been taught, that they're viewing me, that I think that I'm better than them because I am doing well.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Okay. I don't know, but. I don't know. I mean, I could be wrong. I'm just saying, like, that's. That doesn't feel like. Yeah, that feels like fear, not ego.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

Scared to do well. Scared to tell you that I'm doing good. Yeah. All right. I don't know. Am I wrong?

[Co-host]

Hey, I'm. I have no way of telling you what you're feeling or thinking or anything.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I just, you know, this. The idea that you do well and then someone's gonna come take it or someone's gonna think differently. It's just. It's very centered on, like, you. Like, people are going to look at me this way. People are going to want to take it. People are like.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Co-host]

A lot of narcissism in it. It just happens.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. I don't.

[Co-host]

Speaking of. Go ahead.

[Michael Malone]

I was just gonna say, like. Like that's what would happen in my family and my town and stuff.

[Co-host]

Like. Where's your family now?

[Michael Malone]

Dead.

[Co-host]

What town are you in now?

[Michael Malone]

Not there.

[Co-host]

So what are you talking about?

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Okay, let me flip the switch then and turn it off.

[Co-host]

It's not about flipping a switch.

[Michael Malone]

It's. Yeah, it's about unlearning. But how do you like. It takes time. Okay.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Things take time, for sure.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah. Yeah. Go on. What were you gonna say?

[Co-host]

I was just gonna. On the bridge of narcissism. I've been going to. Since I'm only on. I did have my monthly therapy check in today. This week.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, whatever.

[Co-host]

Which was good. I don't have a ton to share from it. My girl and I are kind of going through it right now, but it's. It's not. It's not a ton of new stuff. It's, you know, her stuff hitting my parts and vice versa. So it's not nothing we've discussed before. I have a little bit on, like, food stuff that I'm doing.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

But I think we'll talk about that next week. Because, like I talked about before, in lieu of weekly therapy, now I've been attending adult children of emotionally immature parents. Like support groups and on the wings of narcissism and emotionally manipulative parents. I have a couple worksheets that we can go through together if you're interested.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Co-host]

Alrighty. I won't be participating.

[Michael Malone]

Just kidding.

[Co-host]

We'll both do it.

[Michael Malone]

I know we talk about betterhelp a lot on this show, but now they're a sponsor.

[Co-host]

They are a sponsor.

[Michael Malone]

Dude. I'm using BetterHelp. I'm loving it so far. It's so easy to find a therapist, find out what I'm looking for and if it's not working out, because that has happened, I've been able to switch therapists with no problem at all.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Yeah, you had that one. That was not a good fit.

[Michael Malone]

It's not a good fit. Hey. And that happens. Finding good therapists is, like, a lot like finding, you know, being out there in the dating world and finding the right partner for you.

[Co-host]

And you're married now. Never.

[Michael Malone]

Never.

[Co-host]

You're in love now.

[Michael Malone]

I have to talk about this with my therapist.

[Co-host]

Dude, you're there. Can I meet this person? I don't even know their gender. Can I meet this person?

[Michael Malone]

Absolutely not.

[Co-host]

Let's do one together.

[Michael Malone]

Well, we should sign up for couples therapy on BetterHelp.

[Co-host]

I'll do it. You think I won't do it? You think I won't win couples therapy with you? Dude, you think I'm not gonna walk out like the trophy.

[Michael Malone]

I know you will.

[Co-host]

All right, here's the good news. They really are a sponsor. And if you have wanted to get in therapy and maybe you don't know where to start, maybe you don't have insurance like us. You can go to BetterHelp. They were nice enough to give us a discount. So if you hear this, you can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you will get 10% off your first month. There's a link below the episode. Starting therapy. It helps. It really helps. No matter what you want to work on, give it a shot. Betterhelp.com secondhand therapy. We love you guys. So the exercise is assessing your parents emotional immaturity. Okay.

[Michael Malone]

A thousand

[Co-host]

I would put this one over here. All right. Okay, so. Oh, man. All right, we're gonna go through some statements, and you just give me a yes or no if it describes

[Michael Malone]

my. My sweet angel, your perfect saint. My saint?

[Co-host]

Yeah, that toxic nightmare. Nancy Rip, we love you very much. You did your best. You ruined him. We'll go with mom. Since we were both raised by moms.

[Michael Malone]

Sure. All right.

[Co-host]

My parent often overreacted to relatively minor things. I'm a yes.

[Michael Malone]

Yes.

[Co-host]

Okay. My parent did not express much empathy or emotional awareness.

[Michael Malone]

No. Okay. Oh, wait. Yes or no. Does yes mean that she did?

[Co-host]

Is that a true statement? Your parent did not express much empathy or emotional awareness. I would say my mom didn't have much emotional awareness.

[Michael Malone]

Mine did. So mine would be a no.

[Co-host]

Okay. When it came to emotional closeness and feelings, my parents seemed uncomfortable and didn't go there.

[Michael Malone]

No. Okay. What about you?

[Co-host]

Hit and miss. Generally, I would say probably not.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Co-host]

My parent was often irritated by individual differences or different points of view.

[Michael Malone]

No. We would have long talks about things.

[Co-host]

Yeah, I would agree. I didn't really see any issues with that. When I was growing up, my parent used me as a confidant, but wasn't a confidant for me.

[Michael Malone]

Yes to the first part, but no to the second. Like, we were pretty equal. Okay.

[Co-host]

That's not a thing for me. I don't really think we were confidants of each other.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

My parent often said and did things without thinking about people's feelings.

[Michael Malone]

No, that's all my mother thought about.

[Co-host]

Okay, you. No, that doesn't ring true for me. I didn't get much attention or sympathy from my parent. Except maybe when I was really sick.

[Michael Malone]

No, I got too much attention. Yeah, that.

[Co-host]

Me, when I was really sick, maybe.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah,

[Co-host]

the attention doesn't ring true. Sympathy. That's a hard one for me to gauge. Like, what would she be sympathizing with

[Michael Malone]

if he came home from school? If she was like, oh, Louie, you okay? Like, you seem a little down. What happened at school?

[Co-host]

She was still at work when I got home from school.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

You know.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, just be able to, like, read you. Read you and be able to tap into, like, you're not eating much tonight. What's going on, bud?

[Co-host]

Never a problem. Okay, we'll go with maybe on that one.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Co-host]

Where was I? Even polite disagreements can make my parent very defensive. Don't lie to us.

[Michael Malone]

Yes.

[Co-host]

It's like, well, where'd you learn it? If it's a no, sir. Yeah, I would agree with that. As well, yeah, it was deflating to tell my parent about my successes because it didn't seem to matter. I didn't tell anybody about my successes.

[Michael Malone]

No, you don't tell anybody anything. Yeah, no, I keep it quiet. Keep it. I do. I keep it moving.

[Co-host]

Facts and logic were no match for my parents opinions.

[Michael Malone]

It's like a 70 30.

[Co-host]

You talking you and me. Logic ain't got, ain't got a dent on you, my boy.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

My parent was not self reflective and rarely looked at his or her role in a problem. For sure. For me.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host]

My parent tended to be a black and white thinker and unreceptive to new ideas. No, I would say depending on the topic.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, that's a better answer. All right.

[Co-host]

If you have checked more than one, you were with an emotionally immature parent.

[Michael Malone]

More than one.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

That almost seems like cheating. More than just one. That's crazy. Most tests are like, I'm not. I'm just saying like as a test

[Co-host]

goes like, well she failed. You got to make peace with it.

[Michael Malone]

I know. I'm just saying in general, as a test, more than one is wild.

[Co-host]

Well, it's not a test, it's just a worksheet. But glad you everything's a test. You've made it into something about your worth. All right, I have another worksheet.

[Michael Malone]

More than one. Wow.

[Co-host]

Yeah, I mean that's not surprising.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Warning signs of gaslighting from your emotionally immature caretakers. All right, so I don't. And you know I have a. On gaslighting.

[Michael Malone]

I mean you're very rigid on it. Maybe there's like this is the exact term or it ain't gaslighting.

[Co-host]

That's not true. But I do have like a. Not everything's gaslighting, but this is a worksheet so I could be wrong. Okay, so one of the things is denial. The person would say something like, I never said that. That's not how that happened at all. That's gaslighting. Isn't that just lying?

[Michael Malone]

It depends. I think what happens after they do that is what gaslighting is. If they, if they do that and they turn it around on you, I think that's gaslighting.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

In my book that's what it is.

[Co-host]

Okay. We have distraction.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. That's gaslighting.

[Co-host]

Well, I'm going to give you some examples before you, Mr. Nodal. Something like you're in a thing and they divert to like let's talk about your birthday. Subject change. Distraction. Yeah, I didn't have that Your mom do that? No, no, she was all. She stayed on it.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, on it.

[Co-host]

Too much.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, boy.

[Co-host]

All right. Put downs calling you an idiot. You sound crazy when you talk like that.

[Michael Malone]

Not that, no.

[Co-host]

Like what?

[Michael Malone]

Sometimes. I don't. It's not like direct name calling. It would be more of like trying to, like, don't be stupid or don't be a dummy or don't be. You know, I mean, like. But with herself, it was always N word. I'm so stupid. I'm this. I'm. You know what I mean? Like. Yeah.

[Co-host]

She would say that in front of you.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Co-host]

What? Yeah, give me an example.

[Michael Malone]

Mainly about body issues. Yeah. She was very verbal about her appearance all the time. She was always too fat for whatever. Yeah, yeah. All. I mean, anything you want to get, you want to grab. I'm too fat. Michael. I can. She'd order shirts in the mail. I. I can't even wear this. Look at. This is terrible. You know, everything was so much negative self talk with her. Yeah.

[Co-host]

How did you feel when you would hear those things?

[Michael Malone]

Bad. I would feel bad for her. And as I got older, I would try to talk her out of those things. When you're young, you don't know. Mom's just. Mom's just yapping about something, you know, and you're. You're young and you. Whatever. As you get older, you're like, ma, don't. Don't be like, you know, my, you look great. My. You know, so try to codependent as the old uno reverse, you know, like, don't be like, what are you doing? You look great. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Did you ever, like, why is that codependent, trying to change how someone feels?

[Michael Malone]

Okay. No, I don't think that's the same thing. In codependency is what you think it's what you're saying it is. Tell me why I think in codependency, trying to control or change how someone feels is. I know you're going to be mad about this. Listen, I have to tell you something. Please don't get mad. This is what happened. That's trying to control or change the way you feel. Someone saying I look fat. No, you don't. You look great.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

That's not codependency. That's just being nice. Do you see the difference or.

[Co-host]

I do. I just don't think that's what's happening.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Co-host]

Because you. I mean, you said you hear your mom say these things, right? And you feel bad for, like, what I see happening. Is her emotions are having an effect on you. So you're trying to change the emotions so essentially everybody can feel better, including yourself, because your feelings are rooted in her feelings.

[Michael Malone]

Maybe. I guess what I'm looking at was just like, I'm just trying to be a friend, a good friend.

[Co-host]

Yeah, you're a son.

[Michael Malone]

But yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough. Yeah.

[Co-host]

I don't know. What do you think would happen if like, she said something like that and you tried to talk to her about it instead of like telling her what she's saying is wrong or inaccurate? If you were to ask her, like, you know, I've heard you say these things about yourself as long as I can remember.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

How often does it feel like that for you? Like, what would have happened, do you think?

[Michael Malone]

Well, she would deflect it with humor at first and if I kept pressing, she would have a genuine conversation with me. But it wouldn't be filled with her coming around to anything really. I don't think it would just be more negative self talk and more. It would change from opinion to fact.

[Co-host]

I don't understand what that means.

[Michael Malone]

So opinion is like, I look terrible in this shirt, right? Like, I'm too fat for this shirt. I can't believe I ordered it or whatever.

[Co-host]

And I go myself, that's an opinion stated as a fact, right?

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. And I would just say, what have. You know, And I would. And she would say, oh, it's fine, you know, and she'd deflect with humor. And then if I press, then opinion changing the fact would be, michael, I am too fat for that shirt. Look at it. I am too fat for that. What do you want me to do about that? There's nothing I can do. I am too fat for that. You want me to wear that? And then people talk about how fat I am? Is that what you want?

[Co-host]

And then what would that feel like for you?

[Michael Malone]

Like a lost cause? Like, it just feel. It's just like I can't. I can't do anything to help you. I can't help you. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Interesting. It's interesting.

[Michael Malone]

Why is this?

[Co-host]

Because we started with you talking about being of service first and can't help her. That's a bad feeling. Just interesting.

[Michael Malone]

Come around. Yeah, I wanna, I want to. I want to help people that I care about feel better.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

You're saying that's a bad thing.

[Co-host]

I'm not saying that's a bad thing.

[Michael Malone]

You're.

[Co-host]

I'm saying your body language is saying. Yeah, I mean, helping people that haven't asked for Help is.

[Michael Malone]

Mm.

[Co-host]

Kind of a lost cause.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Do you find that people that haven't asked for help are able or willing

[Michael Malone]

to receive help sometimes? Yeah. Majority. Yeah. I don't know. I haven't thought about it. I haven't thought about majority or not.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

So you never. You never have the urge to help people that don't need their help?

[Co-host]

The urge. Of course.

[Michael Malone]

You don't ever step in and do that.

[Co-host]

I will typically ask if they would like help.

[Michael Malone]

Is that a new thing?

[Co-host]

Is what. Asking if they want help.

[Michael Malone]

Mm.

[Co-host]

Instead of just inserting myself.

[Michael Malone]

Mm. Mm.

[Co-host]

I mean, yeah, I think probably.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Yeah, I think it was. Yeah. It's easy. I mean, I have just as much desire to be as. To be controlling as anybody else, you know, probably more. Probably more than anybody than most people. So. Yeah. I think inserting myself and just doing it would be. Yeah. Something I do. And I mean, honestly, when I did do that, I don't know that it was because I wanted to help. I think it was for my own discomfort.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Of, like, watching someone struggle and not being able to, like, figure something out.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Is that the root of your control the majority of the time?

[Co-host]

What,

[Michael Malone]

just your own discomfort?

[Co-host]

I would assume so, yeah. I think, you know, humans are inherently selfish, so I think a lot of our behaviors are, you know, rooted in what you would call survival.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And I think in the state of time that we are like, I think our survival is rooted in how we feel, you know?

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

At least in this part of the world.

[Michael Malone]

How do you find people react when you're trying to help them, when they don't ask for help?

[Co-host]

I try not to do that anymore.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

But even if I offer help and they say no, then I. I think I usually just try to remove myself. Okay. I'll ever change your mind. I can't stand there and watch you drown.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I can't do it.

[Michael Malone]

Okay. Yeah. Is it okay when. When you let's. If somebody is doing something that.

[Co-host]

Are we talking about you and I.

[Michael Malone]

No.

[Co-host]

Oh, okay.

[Michael Malone]

Why?

[Co-host]

I didn't know if you had a thing in mind.

[Michael Malone]

No.

[Co-host]

I was like, we just do the thing.

[Michael Malone]

No.

[Co-host]

Okay, Got it.

[Michael Malone]

No, I'm just asking in general.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

When you see somebody, as you put it, like, struggling or something like that, in a way that you wouldn't do it or that you have already figured out or that you've already done. Yeah. That urge to help out, is that. That discomfort you feel, is that because they're not doing it the way that you would do it. Or it's just.

[Co-host]

I. I mean, I'm sure. I'm sure that's like. I'm sure that's in the neighborhood of what's happening.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Because typically, if I'm watching someone struggle, it's because I know, like, there's a

[Michael Malone]

better way to do this. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Like, I would be doing it the better way. So, sure. I think it kind of by process of elimination has to be. But that's not the conscious intention. You know how I keep telling you I'm doing a psychology class? Doing it.

[Michael Malone]

All right. Okay. Are you really?

[Co-host]

I'm really doing it, dude. Our new sponsor, Southern New Hampshire University,

[Michael Malone]

found some classes, bro. Oh, you fancy.

[Co-host]

Now I'm out here.

[Michael Malone]

He's a schoolboy.

[Co-host]

Hey, and here's the thing. If you're like me and you're just like, dude, I like learning stuff sometimes. Snhu, go learn some stuff. If you were like me in the past, maybe you feel a little stuck in your career. You want to start a new thing. Snhu, what about you?

[Michael Malone]

I mean, I love to learn.

[Co-host]

Oh, God, he's never learned.

[Michael Malone]

I need to do it more.

[Co-host]

Officially, you never learned a thing. Anyway, if you want to check out SNHU and you want to see what kind of programs they have, you can go to Snhu Edu Sht and you can request more information. It costs nothing to request more information. It's a great way to support the podcast. Learn some stuff, start a new career. Do whatever you need.

[Michael Malone]

Go back to school.

[Co-host]

Snhu Edu Sht. There's also a link in the episode description. Get some info. Start some learning. You're welcome.

[Michael Malone]

Do you often think that you know the better way to do it?

[Co-host]

Oh, do I often think I know the better way to do it? Well, I feel most confident if it's from experience. So if I have done the thing and I know a quicker and better way, then I would feel confident in offering help.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

If it's something I'm not experienced in. You know, this is annoying because you know what? No, it's not based in feel. I was gonna say if I. If I genuinely feel that I can do it, but I don't think that's a feel. I think that's a thing. If I genuinely think, like, there's a better way to do. Majority. I don't know. It's tough. I have to think about it.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. I've been working on. Just because that's not the way that I would do it. It's not wrong yeah. Yeah. That's tough.

[Co-host]

It is. You know, but also, we don't have all day, you know?

[Michael Malone]

So for you, it's an in the moment thing.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Okay. Because I'm also like, figure it out.

[Co-host]

Clearly that isn't working.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Co-host]

And then.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

It's one of those things, like, if it doesn't actually affect me, I. I'll just remove myself.

[Michael Malone]

Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. Yours is more like, during a situation. I find mine to be more post situation.

[Co-host]

In reflection.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Or not in reflection, but. Okay, here's a dumb example. I love those 8 out of 10 times I open the dishwasher.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Things are placed in there wrong. They're not wrong. They're just not where I would place them.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

So in my head, when I open it and I. What the. This is wrong. And that's not wrong. That's just not where I would put it. That's what I mean. But it's not during a thing. It is. It's already. It's already happened.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

It.

[Co-host]

Do you. Do you rearrange it?

[Michael Malone]

Yes. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Interesting.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. But I have to remind myself again, like, it's not wrong. It's just not the way I would do it. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Well, I would say it is wrong if they're not getting clean.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. I mean, well, technically, they're in the dishwasher.

[Co-host]

Well.

[Michael Malone]

So, I mean, that's. Yeah, that's like the basic of like. Yeah. Hey, something's gonna. It's there.

[Co-host]

Give me an example of what's wrong in a dishwasher.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, plates on the top rack. Hey, that's not where that goes.

[Co-host]

I could see that. Little plates, I think could be, though. I think little plates falling with bowl.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Things like that. Where I'm just like.

[Co-host]

Also, I'm gonna die on a hill here.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Gla. Any drinkware. Glasses. Is for the top rack.

[Michael Malone]

Is not for the top rack.

[Co-host]

Is for the top rack. Glasses, mugs on the top rack.

[Michael Malone]

I'll go for that.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I don't know, man.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. But yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, it's not wrong, just not the way you do it. So there's things in life like that that I'll come across from.

[Co-host]

Yeah. But it is. Okay. Sorry.

[Michael Malone]

It's just preference over. So when you're seeing something happening in the moment, are you able to say, it's not wrong, it's just not the way I would do it? Or is it more of a time frustration thing where you're like, hey, figure it out. Like, this is taking too long. You should have already.

[Co-host]

We should have already been done a couple years ago. The latter, presently.

[Michael Malone]

The latter. Oh, I thought you were talking about it. Oh, my God. I thought you were talking about, like,

[Co-host]

he's an author, folks. The latter.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. What happened with the ladder?

[Co-host]

But presently, really, if I see something, somebody doing something, and I'm like, what the are they doing? I will ask. Oh. And I'll just be like, why are you doing it that way? And it is out of genuine curiosity. But I do live with a couple people who think that is. I should. I. I may as well just pull out a loaded gun and point it at them because it's that threatening.

[Michael Malone]

Yes. But what you are just admitting right now is that curiosity rooted in control.

[Co-host]

Hey, real quick. Didn't admit anything. Go ahead.

[Michael Malone]

Did you?

[Co-host]

No.

[Michael Malone]

Is that curiosity? But you're. What you're getting at is that curiosity is rooted in control.

[Co-host]

That's not what I'm getting at. I'm saying I'm asking out of curiosity because now rather than thinking, because the thought is, why what the are they doing?

[Michael Malone]

Right.

[Co-host]

It used to be do it this way. It's better.

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Co-host]

And now it's why are they doing it that way?

[Michael Malone]

Okay.

[Co-host]

It's a genuine curiosity. So it's rooted in curiosity.

[Michael Malone]

So what do you do with that curiosity then? Let's say that you. They answer and it's not the way that you would do it. Is that still curiosity, or do you try to change it and end up in control?

[Co-host]

Well, the curiosity is only for the question. After that, if they say something and it's. And it's dumb as. Then I can either continue if. If I have more curiosity, I can. But at that point, I'm probably out of curiosity.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I'm either going to go, that doesn't make any sense. Or I'm gonna remove myself. Huh.

[Michael Malone]

All right.

[Co-host]

I mean, there is room for more curiosity, but I don't think I would have any at that point.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, yeah.

[Co-host]

And they're gonna be like that.

[Michael Malone]

Would your mother correct you in ways like this? Like, what was that like?

[Co-host]

You know, my recollection is that, well, what. I never really asked for help. If I did ask for help, you know, I don't know.

[Michael Malone]

Well, in these scenarios, nobody's asking for help.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Oh, then I think so. I'm doing something. I'm struggling. Yeah. I think my mom would just take over. Oh, I do think so.

[Michael Malone]

God damn. Yeah, same, same.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah, there would be. And that's that's where the learning comes in. Right.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Michael Malone]

No

[Co-host]

learning what? How to get out of the way.

[Michael Malone]

No, I mean the lack of learning.

[Co-host]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael Malone]

That's where for me the lack of learning comes in. My mother would just take over.

[Co-host]

So what's the vibes when she takes over?

[Michael Malone]

Frustration. Oof. Yep.

[Co-host]

What happened?

[Michael Malone]

I just, you know, that was so fast.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

Frustration outward. Yeah. Sometimes. No. No clear emotion.

[Co-host]

Stone face.

[Michael Malone]

Uhhuh. Yeah.

[Co-host]

I mean, that's better than frustration.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, you know, I'd rather be a mystery. Be a mystery.

[Co-host]

What if you just bored, huh?

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. CU a kid, you're like, yeah, mom's taking over.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

But yeah. Yeah, I would.

[Co-host]

I would recall frustration.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Verbal.

[Co-host]

Exhales.

[Michael Malone]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. The mom exhales.

[Co-host]

Exhales. Maybe some verbal. But I do recall feeling like I was in trouble.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

If she had to take something over, I would feel like I was like. I was like, oh, I that up.

[Michael Malone]

Is it trouble or disappointment?

[Co-host]

Trouble, buddy.

[Michael Malone]

I running you we.

[Co-host]

You don't spill at my house. My guy.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael Malone]

H. I think often times my mother would just step in without saying anything at all. Yeah. Yeah. And so I never knew, you know, how to feel about it because there was no emotion attached to it. Yeah. So I couldn't really tell. I know how to feel about it. It was just happening. Yeah. I think that's what happened. Yeah. Things were just happening and there. And the. The lack of learning would be there. There would be no follow up. It's never like, even with frustration, like, ah, let me, you know, let me clean this up or whatever. And then later a parent should come to you and say, hey, sorry I lost my temper earlier. This and that. Like, yeah. When you. Next time when you smell that, here's what you take a little baking soda and you do the. In case I'm not around or you do. That's how you. Yeah, that's how you parent.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Somebody.

[Michael Malone]

Parents.

[Co-host]

I don't know who.

[Michael Malone]

That's what you want.

[Co-host]

Yeah. But do you think the. The inability for them to like, let us struggle with something, was it the discomfort of like the. Or the fear of them not being needed? Like, oh, if he figures this out, then like, let me make. Let me get in there. And like, probably.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, man. Yeah. I think that was my mother's biggest fear.

[Co-host]

Not being needed.

[Michael Malone]

What will I do if Michael doesn't need me?

[Co-host]

What will Michael do if nobody needs him?

[Michael Malone]

Why. Why you gotta do that to me?

[Co-host]

It was right there. I.

[Michael Malone]

Hey. Almost cried. Yeah.

[Co-host]

Just then just it almost just remember a couple weeks ago and you're like nobody. I've been having those thoughts again. Nobody, nobody needs me. Ain't always checking on me. Hey Nancy.

[Michael Malone]

Yeah?

[Co-host]

You almost cried right now.

[Michael Malone]

Oh yeah. That shot through me, dude. Hey. Didn't like it?

[Co-host]

Yeah. Let's talk about it. And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.

[Michael Malone]

WSECU isn't just one of Washington's best credit unions. We're a Forbes best in state five years running. Why? Because we put you first. Lower fees, early paydays, financial guidance and service second to none. As a member owned cooperative, we love Washington as much as you do. From the Olympic mountains to the rolling Palouse. Join us and discover how much we care about your financial well being. Because what we really do best is. Is invest in you. Visit wsecu. Org today to learn more. Washington let's credit union.