Inner Critic Sounds Like... Mom | #092

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy: “Inner Critic Sounds Like... Mom” (#092)

Host: PonyBear Studios
Date: July 28, 2025
Participants: Louie Paoletti (A) & Michael Malone (B)

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Overview

This episode of Secondhand Therapy dives deep into the complex relationships we have with our internal voices—specifically the “inner critic” and how often it echoes the words and attitudes of our parents. Louie and Michael, best friends and unapologetically unlicensed “therapy journeymen,” use humor, vulnerability, and self-reflection to unpack Michael’s evolving therapy journey, codependency, grief, and the long shadow of maternal influence.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Search for the Right Therapist

• Michael parts ways with his former therapist: Citing a lack of depth and “black and white” thinking, Michael expresses frustration when his therapist quickly concludes, “That’s just who you are,” instead of probing deeper into issues like external validation and non-monogamy curiosity.
• Transition to BetterHelp: Michael appreciates how easy it was to switch therapists via the platform—just a couple of clicks. His new (gay male) therapist immediately feels like a better fit, offering trauma-informed modalities like IFS (Internal Family Systems) and “parts work.”
• Lighthearted banter about the process:
  • “Therapy is just dating. You're trying to figure out if this is your person or not.” (B, 11:39)

2. Grief, Motherhood, and the Voice in Your Head

• Conjuring Mom Up: Michael’s therapist asks, “Who is filling that gap now that she’s gone? And do you think anyone can give you the love she gave you, buddy?” (B, 17:24). This hits Michael hard and is repeatedly referenced as a pivotal, wounding insight.
• Ongoing Grief Work: Michael admits he’s less far along processing his mother’s death than he assumed. Overwhelmed by memories linked to small rituals—like buying a suit—he finds himself repeatedly suppressing emotions:
  • “I got overwhelmed. And I was like, all right, well, shut that down... almost crying, and I’m like, nah.” (B, 21:03)
  • Louie challenges him: “Why? Who’s fucking talking?” (A, 21:28)
  • Michael: “Anybody got time for that? Because… something that big is going to take the whole day...” (B, 21:31)
• “Conjuring” as a coping mechanism: Michael’s therapist labels the way he replays imagined conversations with his mom as “conjuring”—keeping her present, especially for self-critique or imagined disapproval. Michael notes, “I find myself, like, arguing with her disapproval a lot of times… my tattoos are an example of that. My mother would never want me to have tattoos.” (B, 24:12)

3. Codependency: Family Patterns and Current Struggles

• Intergenerational Codependency: Louie articulates how Michael's upbringing with his mom and grandmother—a “chain of codependency”—shaped his concept of love and self-worth.
  • Louie: “Your mother raised you in a very codependent way… she needed you to feel that purpose.” (A, 36:41)
• Loss of Parental “Protection”: Michael describes the fear that fills the “protection gap” since his mom died:
  • “There’s nobody looking out for me. There is no backup plan… That is a weird feeling.” (B, 33:15)
• Link between codependency and identity: The hosts reflect on how losing a codependent parent can lead to a sense of purposelessness, not traditional suicidality, but, “Well, what am I doing here?... the struggles I have with living life for myself.” (B, 38:22)
• New awareness from attending CoDA meetings: Michael’s participation in Codependents Anonymous is bringing insight and “nuggets” every week:
  • “Every time you get out of one of those you have… some nuggets. Dude, I’m wrecked, buddy. It’s a fistfight every week.” (B, 41:43)

4. Love, Protection, and the “Inner Critic”

• The voice as love: Michael explores the shock of realizing his inner critic often mirrors his mother’s voice:
  • “Whose voice is that?” (A, 47:19)
  • Michael: “It’s mom. ... Because the protection that she is providing in those moments feels like love, you know, like, even when it’s criticism.” (B, 47:22)
• Criticism as protection: Stories about tattoos and judgment illustrate how “don’t get a neck tattoo, people will think X, Y, Z,” is internalized as care.
• Louie’s challenge: “When your mother says ‘People are going to think…’—that’s what you think.” (A, 49:05). The deeply ingrained fear of others’ judgment isn’t really about “others”—it’s inherited and projected anxiety.
• Wrestling with authenticity and external validation: Michael struggles to differentiate between genuine desire (e.g., to “feel put together”) vs. what’s dictated by ingrained fear of judgment.

5. Relationship Patterns: Reenacting Old Dynamics

• Replicating codependency: Louie gently points out that the ways Michael conceptualizes love (constant reassurance, proximity, merging) can cause problems in relationships with less codependent, more individuated partners.
  • “You’re… showing love, and when you’re in a relationship with somebody who is… not codependent—they’re going, hey, this isn’t what it’s supposed to be like. And that can be ouchie.” (A, 40:52)

6. Forward Movement: Therapy Goals

• Setting intentional goals: With his new therapist, Michael focuses on: learning to process grief, processing emotions, and trying IFS/parts work to better understand his internal family dynamic.
• Re-learning self-care and emotion regulation: There’s earnest recognition that much of his “put-together-ness” and self-presentation is a reenactment of childhood coping.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Therapy Roulette:
  • “Therapy is just dating. Right. You’re trying to figure out if this is your person or not.” (B, 11:39)
• On Maternal Influence:
  • “Who is filling that gap now that she’s gone? And do you think anyone can give you the love she gave you, buddy.” (Therapist relayed by B, 17:24)
• On Emotional Avoidance:
  • “I got overwhelmed…almost crying, and I’m like, nah. And I would shut it down.” (B, 21:03)
• On the Persistence of the Inner Critic Voice:
  • “She asked me whose voice [the inner critic] was…It’s mom.” (B, 47:22)
  • “The protection that she is providing in those moments feels like love, you know—even when it’s criticism.” (B, 47:38)
• On Perfectionism and Presentation:
  • “The house is never as clean as when company’s coming…” (B, 50:46)
  • “It's such a... It's so ingrained in me that I… I literally don't know how to look at it any other way.” (B, 51:08)
• On Codependency:
  • “It's crazy what you think is love when you're young.” (A, 42:36)
  • “Losing her… there’s nobody looking out for me. There is no backup plan… Now I’m scared.” (B, 33:15/36:20)
• On Healing:
  • “I'm very interested in figuring out my parts and going down and talking to some folks.” (B, 45:50)
  • “You can't… we can't go down there and be aggressive [to your parts] because they probably will not be really receptive to that. Got to go from the core self.” (B therapist relayed / A, 46:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• New therapist, switch to BetterHelp: 04:13–12:27
• Parental loss, conjuring Mom, and grief process: 15:21–26:47
• Codependency, self-purpose after loss: 33:12–38:51
• Inner critic and maternal voice: 47:19–48:43
• External validation, self-presentation, and deep patterns: 50:07–58:04
• Therapy goals and learning emotion regulation: 44:43–46:47

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Conclusion

This episode delivers its trademark blend of candor, subtle wit, and hard-hitting emotional insight. With Michael’s therapeutic breakthroughs around his mother’s enduring influence—both as a nurturing force and a source of critical self-talk—the episode wrestles gently with universal questions: How do we break inherited patterns? Who replaces lost love? Where do our standards for ourselves really come from? The hosts leave listeners with hope—therapy (especially with a good fit) can help change the script, even if that inner critic still sounds a lot like mom.

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Transcript

[A]

Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use Better Help recently?

[B]

Yes, I have. I just signed up.

[A]

How'd it go?

[B]

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch, like there's like two or three pages of people that I got to choose from and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago. Nice.

[A]

Have you used their journal feature?

[B]

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.

[A]

Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know, you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just, it's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better Help's a good option and they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys, if you're listening and you want to start with Better help, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Get in therapy. You know, it's great.

[B]

Check it out. Welcome back to Secondhand Therapy. We to remind you that we are not therapists. We are not licensed professionals. And this is no way in any, any shape or form. And how you cut it. This is not a substitute for actual advice from people that.

[A]

Damn it, the they're talking. This is not a substitute for therapy and this is not professional advice in any way. Are you doing this on purpose?

[B]

No, I, I legit. Even when I hear you now, I can't retain it. You may try.

[A]

No, we'll do it next week.

[B]

You, wherever you're listening to this, we appreciate it. Number one. And number two, leave us a comment. Subscribe. Do all the things that the algorithm gods want you to do. It really helps us out.

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[B]

That's right.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Also, you are going to hear some ads and There is a way to avoid that. I'm here to tell you. You can head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes over there. You get access to them early. And there's an entirely different podcast that is non therapy based. Over 40 episodes just waiting for you to discover. And arguably this.

[A]

This Week's episode, episode 43 went up and it's a banger. All right, you want to hear about me getting my girl in the mood? Go on over. Am I proud of it?

[B]

No, it's wild.

[A]

Did my girl ask? Why would you put that out there? Yes. Go to Patreon.

[B]

Head on over to Patreon.

[A]

I said too much. I have regrets.

[B]

Stuff going on over there that you're missing out on.

[A]

We also have merch available. Secondhand therapy, pod.com. got some tie dye stuff for the summer. We got a couple TE's. Existential Crisis Tea is pretty dope.

[B]

Yeah, it's dope.

[A]

It. It is that deep. Be nice to me. A new tea.

[B]

Another fun one.

[A]

We got a gay coffee mug, some stickers.

[B]

Thanks for listening. We appreciate you share, like, subscribe.

[C]

Love you.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Thanks, guys. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[B]

And welcome back secondhand therapy. And we know that. I got a new therapist.

[A]

What happened?

[B]

I got rid of the. I got rid of the.

[A]

You got rid of Marjorie?

[C]

I did.

[A]

Marjorie Taylor Greene.

[B]

Take a hike, dude.

[A]

Okay. Now that she's gone, trumper.

[B]

Oh, for sure.

[A]

Really? Do you have evidence other than a vibe?

[B]

No, it's kind of.

[A]

Do you ever see Doubt?

[B]

No.

[C]

What's that?

[A]

Philip Seymour Hoffman. Meryl Streep. She's a nun, he's a priest, and it's about kids in the Catholic church.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And there's a scene where she's accusing him. He's like, you have no proof. And she goes, I have my certainty.

[B]

My certainty.

[A]

And that's you. You got no proof, but you have your certainty?

[B]

I have my certainty.

[A]

All right, so you got a new therapist.

[B]

I got a new therapist. Also because, like, when we were unpacking things, like we were talking about relationships and non monogamy and this and that, and I had said, anybody but your.

[A]

Partner, you'll talk about it with.

[B]

Hey, I'm so sorry. We've had the conversation.

[A]

Oh, yeah, sorry about that.

[B]

Anyways, but she was. I was. She was bringing up like, I was like, yeah, I really. I'm trying to figure out what is fantasy and what is reality in that.

[A]

World, you know, like, with regards to non monogamy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And she was like, well, that's just who you are. And I go, well, we got two.

[A]

Sessions, but yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

And I was like, well, you know, I really want to explore why I seek external validation and praise and why I can't give it to myself. And she was like, no, that's just who you are. I'm like, well, I'd rather look into it and see if that is who I am or if what's going on with external validation and why I can't give it to my. I'd rather work towards that than just be like, well, I'm just trying to be out in them streets.

[C]

Like.

[A]

Okay, so that implies what I'm hearing is that you think that your desire for non monogamy is to fill a validation hole. Do you think that's what it is?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. Because, you know, you and I have had conversations too about being exposed to pornography at a young age and this and that and all these other things. So I'm like, I'm wondering. I'm wondering what.

[C]

How. Yeah.

[A]

Is being exposed the right term? Consuming?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Did somebody show it to you or did you seek it out the first, like, early on?

[B]

I can't remember. I think it was just my friends and I, like stumbled upon it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You got hooked up.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It's just like an early thing and like.

[A]

Were you ever scared of getting caught with it if your mom found it?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you keep it in the house?

[B]

Do you want to know? Oh, God, this is so funny.

[A]

Absolutely. I want to know.

[B]

Okay, here's where I kept it.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

One day I came across this portfolio, this black leather zip up portfolio from like the 80s.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I think it belonged to my father. It had to.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Powder residue in there?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Some IOUs, some IOU and some powder.

[B]

Jamal owes us $300, Mom. Did you know that?

[A]

I did, yes, honey, I did.

[C]

So.

[B]

I emptied it out and I would stash my dirty magazines in there. I had like three or four, like. I think there was like a penthouse in there and a hustler, all my fathers that I had found.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And stole.

[A]

Of course.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then I kept inside this. This black folder that I zipped up. And the way my room was set up was that my light fixture. My light fixture led up into the attic. So I had bunk beds at one time. So what I would do is I would get in the top bunk and then I would take out the, like the panel and then lift up the light and then take my little porno folder and hide it in the attic and then move the light down and put the light fixture back up. My mother had to know. It's the loudest procedure ever. You know what I mean? Like those little. You've seen those panels, they sound like thunder, if you even like. So that's what I'm doing. Just thunder and lightning every time I'm trying to look at porn.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Penthouse was the best back then, buddy. My uncle gave me a penthouse once.

[B]

How old?

[A]

14, 15.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So my uncle. I don't know if he still is. What? He was in construction at the time, worked on a bunch of movies.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Built movie sets. Sandlot. He's in the credits.

[B]

What?

[C]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

So he was doing some work on our house and he just pulled this Penthouse out of his glove box.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It was like also having porn in your car.

[A]

Wild, crazy, wild, crazy.

[B]

Porn on the go.

[C]

Yeah. Who?

[A]

What?

[B]

You're reading the articles during your lunch break.

[A]

Red light, baby.

[B]

Red light district.

[A]

So he pulled out a Penthouse and goes, here you go, bud. And I was like, what's that? He's like, you can have it.

[C]

I was like, oh, my God.

[A]

That was my first magazine.

[B]

Greatest day of your life.

[C]

It's pretty good.

[B]

It's pretty good day.

[A]

Can I tell you what happened? This is how I know I've had anxiety my whole life. I got it. I didn't even have it but a couple weeks and I got it in my head. I don't even remember where I hit it.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But I was like, dude, mom's gonna find this. I gotta get rid of it. So I just threw it over the back fence into the alley.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

And then I would just go look at the titty that was still there.

[C]

No. Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Anyway. So non monogamy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I was talking about, like, yeah, I want to discover what this is. And is this something that. Again, like, is it reality or fantasy? And instead of, like, exploring that with me or even questioning it, she was just like, nah. So there was a couple things like that where it was just like every. There was a few things where it just seemed like it was either black or white. You know what I mean? Like, this is either real or not. And let's move on.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And I was like. And also, there was very little setup between us.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But that's what this is. This is what therapy is. It's just. It's dating. Right. You're trying to figure out if this is your person or not.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And as you guys heard in the intro, we have A new sponsor.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Better help, which is where you are getting therapy.

[B]

I was just gonna say what's great about it is I was. The switch up was so easy.

[A]

I was gonna ask how was the transfer?

[B]

This person and I didn't really match. We had a couple se. And then literally there was like two clicks.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, to switch out and you know, like, hey, do you want to switch to service? Are you sure? And then it just opened up. Pages and pages of therapists from all over.

[C]

All right.

[A]

Tell me about your new lover.

[B]

Got a dude.

[A]

Good for you.

[B]

Gay, straight, gay man.

[A]

The best.

[B]

The best. The best of the best.

[A]

The best kind of man.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I miss my gay guy therapist.

[B]

Yeah, he's great.

[A]

Brandon, if you hear this, I think about you a lot. Go ahead.

[B]

Does parts work? Ifs all that fun stuff.

[C]

Nice.

[B]

It was so funny when we first were talking, like, I, I filled out the form wrong.

[A]

Shocking.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, he sent me like this survey thing. Just like, hey, just get to know you. That's the other thing. Great about BetterHelp is you get like these introduction surveys and you fill them out as you go. And then there's also like a goals list that you can fill out as well, which is what I up. It was asking me, like, what I'm targeting and what I wanted to work on. And I thought because it gave you like a, like five different categories. So I was just going through like a buffet line and I'm like, oh, yeah, do this, do this, do this.

[A]

Kind of like what you want your dating life to be. That's a non monogamy joke. It's a buffet line of ass. Do you see what I'm saying?

[B]

I don't get it.

[C]

Did you.

[A]

Oh, go ahead.

[B]

It's a buffet line anyways.

[A]

Swinging a miss.

[C]

I.

[B]

I, I filled out all these things and then I clicked next and it was, turns out it was supposed to be individual. It was like, how do you want. What is the best way to target this for you? And I was like, oh, no. Our session started with me being like, hey, I up. Sorry. He's like, it's okay. He's like, I'm still getting used to these. Yeah, these setups and everything too. Um, but what was great about him was he right away was like, okay, this first session, if it's okay with you. He's like, I like to see if we gel how we communicate what you're working on, if I can help you or not. That kind of thing.

[A]

You talk about the podcast.

[C]

I did.

[B]

You know what he Said I don't have tick tock or Instagram. You don't have to worry.

[A]

So you don't know who I am.

[B]

Next.

[A]

That's great.

[B]

External validation. I need it.

[A]

Next. Hey, I like this guy.

[B]

He's great.

[A]

I like him.

[B]

Good so far.

[A]

Nice. And then what happened?

[C]

Oh, no.

[B]

Yeah, I think you're gonna like it. I told you off air that I think you would like him.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Here'S why.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Right out the gate. We're talking about Mama.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, it's oozing out of you.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

[B]

And he had said something to me that you and I had recently talked about.

[C]

Oh, well, well, well.

[A]

Did I say it first?

[C]

Mm.

[A]

Give me my fucking degree, bitch. Where's my fucking degree, bitch? I'm a therapist, dude. Before you tell us, we got to take a break, though. That's unfortunate.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, if you were on Patreon, you'd already have the nugget.

[B]

It's true.

[A]

We'll be right back. Idiots. I'm so sorry.

[B]

Hey, you're hearing this right now because you're not on Patreon. Just cruising through this episode.

[A]

Idiot.

[B]

Let me tell you, it's juicy. You're missing out. You're wasting time. You're wasting. Do you have this much time to waste?

[A]

You like mouth sounds?

[B]

Oh, my God. Remember when we used to get complaints all the time about mouth sounds? Well, good news on Patreon, no mouth sounds. We can't guarantee that, but there are no ads. And there's an entirely different podcast that's non therapy based. It's going on right now without you. You're missing out on life. A big part of life. Our life. Head on over to Patreon. We love you. Thank you for listening.

[A]

Stupid. All right, so he's stealing my material. What's he got? This dude stepping all over my lines.

[B]

Well, first, let's start here.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He asked me something that I had not thought of.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

And you have not thought of.

[A]

I'll be there. I'll tell you if I've thought of it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sometimes I don't say things because. Sensitive boy. And I'm like, that's too much.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll be honest. If I thought of it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He asked me when we were talking about grief and my mother and all these things he was saying, he said it sounds like you guys are pretty close. Yeah, we were very close. And he goes, who is filling that gap now that she's gone? And do you think that anyone can give you the love that she gave you buddy. What?

[A]

Hey, how many single moms have you dated?

[B]

I do like a single mom.

[A]

Hey, we've talked about that.

[B]

I do like a single mom.

[A]

I wonder why I can't figure it out. All right, go ahead.

[B]

Before I give you the juice. A little foreplay. He asked me where I was.

[A]

I don't know why I moaned just now about the juice in the foreplay, but I did.

[C]

Yeah, don't.

[B]

You know why?

[A]

Don't.

[B]

Yeah, you know why?

[A]

I can't handle that thing. I can't handle that thing. Honey Badger.

[B]

Jesus Christ.

[A]

So.

[B]

He said, where are you with grief? And I.

[A]

I said, did you lie?

[B]

No, I said, I. I honestly, I thought I was a lot further along. And I go. And I stopped myself. And I said, actually, I am a lot further along than I was before. I go, but there is still processing that needs to be done, and I don't really notice it until it creeps up. And the other day, I posted about it. The other day, I was looking for a suit, and it made me think of the first suit that I owned as an adult, which my mother bought me when my stepfather passed. And I just remember how ungrateful I was in those moments, you know when you're out with your mom and she's making you try on things.

[A]

Try on slacks.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Let me see. How's the crotch?

[A]

Let's go down to Dillard's.

[B]

How's the crotch? You're like, yeah, it's snug.

[A]

Are you happy? Just like your father.

[C]

So she's.

[B]

So I'm having these flashback and.

[A]

Black suit. Yeah, I ironed that suit before your mom's funeral.

[B]

You probably did.

[C]

I did.

[A]

Your fiance at the time, I was like, can you do us?

[C]

We.

[A]

Can you iron this?

[C]

Really?

[A]

It's like, anything you need, buddy. I was a zombie ironing in your mom's kitchen.

[B]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Sorry. Go ahead.

[B]

So the other day, while having these, like, flashbacks, these memories, I was like, I got caught up in the moment and was becoming a little overwhelmed with emotions. And I remember stopping myself.

[A]

This is in therapy or this is. No, when you were writing the thing or when you were.

[B]

Yeah, this is just the other day at breakfast, while I was scrolling.

[A]

Got it.

[B]

I got overwhelmed. And I was like, all right, well, shut that down.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And then later in the next two days following, it was like, I found myself in the still moments, it would rise up again. And I'm like, nope, we're not doing that. Because I would get to a point of like, almost crying, and I'm like, nah. And I would shut it down.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Like, who's fucking talking?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Why. Why wouldn't you cry? It was. I think it is. God damn it. It keeps coming back around to the same thing, which is like, anybody got time for that? Because I feel like talking to my mom. What are you processing? Something that big is going to take the whole day, and nobody got time for that, so I'd rather just shut it down and move on.

[A]

Why does it take the whole day?

[B]

I don't know. It probably doesn't.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But in my mind, takes a whole day.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

There goes the dip. It's gone. And so, yeah, not allowing myself to fully feel those emotions was an alarm bell for me. And I was like, oh, I'm still dealing with not fully processing this. And so I brought that up to him on where I am with grief. And this is. This is the juicy part, he said, because he was, like, asking me about my mother and our relationship and how I thought of her, and he said, it sounds like you are conjuring her up. And that is a form of keeping her around. And this is something that grieving people do to kind of not fully process the death of someone is. They will conjure them up into these moments in their life and still feel connected.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Examples of that would be like, well, my mother would. She wouldn't like that I'm doing this or, like, even, like, jokingly things like that or, you know, whatever. That still counts as, like, conjuring. And I thought that was such a interesting term, like, conjuring her up. He's like, yeah. When you speak about her, he's like, she's very much still with you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, I didn't see. Because I'm not, like, consciously thinking that, you know. And we brought up other examples. I was like, I think it's almost like the opposite for me, like, because we were talking about approval.

[C]

And.

[B]

And he's like, do you find yourself, you know, wondering if she will approve of your decisions or this or that? And I was like, it's actually kind of the opposite. I find myself, like, arguing with her disapproval a lot of times. And he's like, give me an example of that. And I go, well, my tattoos are an example of that. My mother would never want me to have tattoos. It would. She would hate all of my. And I'm covered in them now. And. And I. And I told him. I was like, you know, she would react in a Way of, like, if she were to see my tattoo, she's like, michael, what are you doing?

[C]

You know?

[B]

And I told him about how she was always worried about other people's judgment and how they viewed us and everything. And, like, the tattoos would fit into that. Like, michael, you cannot get a tattoo. People will think X, Y, and Z, you know?

[C]

And.

[B]

And he goes. When you talk about her in those ways, he goes, that energy is interesting. He goes, tell me more about the dynamic. Like, what are you feeling in those moments when. When she would. If she were to say something like that? And I go, well, I spent most of my life. My. Most of my adult life kind of reassuring her or calming her down, you know? So when she. You know, when she get worked up about something, I was always on. Be like, mom, it's gonna be fine. You're fine. We're gonna be. It's okay. I was like, so almost like, showing her these tattoos would be not spiteful, but a way to be like, it's fine. You know what I mean? Like, almost like, come with me. You know what I mean? Like, I got. Yeah, I got this tattoo. Isn't it great? Michael, you shouldn't have got that. Come on, you want one? Let's get you a tattoo. You know, I'm shaving my head now. Michael, why are you doing that? You. Oh, my God, your hair. Let's cut your hair. Let's get you some new hair. Let's get you a new haircut. Like, it's almost showing her that she doesn't have to be scared.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

What happened just now?

[B]

I don't know. I got weird.

[A]

I got weird.

[B]

I got weird, man.

[C]

What.

[A]

What are you feeling?

[C]

Oh, man.

[B]

I got weird because, like, the same, man. It's just. I want to help. I want to help her come out of her shell. I want to show her that she doesn't need to be scared. Ah, man.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Who's going to do that for you?

[C]

Yeah. I don't know.

[A]

Do you think that it's a thing of, if you can get her to do it, then she'll be okay with you doing it? Like, you need her to go first?

[B]

No, no, it's more of, like. I don't know. I don't want to say. I don't want to say protection. It's more like. I can't describe it. Like, I just want to. I felt bad that she lived that way, and I just. I wanted to help her break out of it.

[A]

When did you start feeling that way?

[B]

I don't know. Probably late 20s, mid-20s, somewhere around there.

[A]

So when she was still alive?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, big time. I was.

[A]

But no tattoos while she was alive?

[B]

No, but that wasn't really about her. That was more about career. Yeah, I wasn't giving myself permission then because I was trying to act and, you know, be famous and all that fun stuff. And so that was just always like an industry thing about being like, you have to be a blank canvas.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Same thing with the hair and like all that stuff, all that appearance stuff at the time was more so wrapped up in career than it was self love or whatever.

[A]

So how did you try to show her that she doesn't need to be scared when these feelings started?

[B]

Just reassurance, you know, and just talking her through things or leading by example on a couple things or just like, you know, my mother was terrified of everything. You know, she was terrified to leave town. I spent most of my life traveling. Try to take her with me a bunch. Would, you know, she would go here and there, but not a lot. Trying new foods, things like that.

[C]

Like.

[B]

When I would get on like little health kicks or whatever, I'd try to bring her along. She was always worried about her weight and things like that. So I was showing her things that would help me and substitutions and things like that. Like reassuring her the way that she felt when she said she didn't look good or something like that. Telling her that she's beautiful and that, you know, reassuring her in the ways when she's talking about judgment of like, I can't go to the store like this. It's like, ma, nobody cares. Come on, let's go. You know, and listen, I hear the irony as I'm saying it that you.

[A]

Still live in all those ways.

[B]

Yeah, it's transferred to me. It's transferred to me.

[A]

Well, we got to take a break, but I'm going to call you out on that in just a second.

[B]

Okay, great.

[A]

Be right back. Hello, little bear cubs and welcome to commercial break Number two out of 50. There's gonna be a lot. You're gonna hear some ads, I hope. If you don't want to hear them. Patreon. Good way to support the podcast ad. Free episodes, early episodes, bunch of bonus stuff. We also have merch available secondhand therapy pod dot com. Two great ways to support the podcast, you know, Follow us on our social medias. Subscribe. And the things and the things and the things and just, you know, we appreciate it, every little bit helps. Here's some ads. I hope, I hope it's A lot of them. I really, really do. It might not be any. We're still going through the thing, you know. Okay. Love you.

[C]

Bye.

[A]

I'm sorry, what were you saying? I block out nonsense and lies.

[B]

Oh, my.

[A]

Can you say it again? I want to try to retain it this time.

[B]

I feel like it's transferred to me.

[A]

Interesting, interesting, interesting.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. When did that happen? Because in your late 20s, early 30s? You were. You were. I'm going to ask you a question.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

As you say these things.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Does it sound like you were parenting her?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. So when did it shift to now? You are back in the seat of living in fear of everything.

[B]

Well, I'm glad you asked.

[A]

Hey, you know what? You're welcome.

[B]

Guys, this kind of goes into what we talked about today, which was, like, this protection that I felt when my mother was alive. And I feel like that protection is gone and has been gone since she died. So I think a lot of that went away when. And we've talked about a little bit on here before about, like, there is no. There's nobody looking out for me. There is no backup plan. There is no emergency, anything. It is just me out here. And that is a weird feeling that I don't think I. I don't know. I don't know how to get over that.

[A]

That makes no sense to me from what you're saying.

[C]

How.

[A]

Because everything you were just saying was that you were the backup for her.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You were reassuring her. You were encouraging her.

[B]

That's still. That's still your mother, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Even though you. I think with parents and children, I think that there is a switch that happens. Eventually you start to see things that they don't see, because when you're young, they see things that you don't see, both in yourselves and in the world. And then when that switch happens, I think we all become a little bit of, like, parenting our parents, you know, and, like. But that doesn't take away from. That they are your parent or that they have the power or they instill that feeling of what power do they have? That. Them getting there. That feeling of, like, no matter what happens, they'll be there for you, whether they can actually help you or not, that feeling is still there about, like, hey, I got you.

[C]

You're.

[B]

You're good. Like, whether they're 100 years old and in a nursing home or 45 years old throwing the football in the backyard with you or whatever, the. That feeling of that parent protection, whether real or not, that feeling is still There. I had that with my grandmother. Even late when she was in a nursing home, I still felt like she's got me. If I needed anything, she's there. I don't have that.

[C]

And.

[B]

Now I'm scared.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I got a. I have a different theory.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm not saying it's correct.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Here's my thought.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Your mother raised you in a very codependent way. You and her were very codependent, and she and your grandmother were very codependent as well.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So being raised by two codependent women, I think obviously you would be raised to feel that they were saviors and they could. Could and would do anything. Yeah, I think. Yeah. It's. You know, the more we talk about your mom, it sounds like you gave your mom a purpose.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

That being a mother was her purpose, and she needed you to feel that purpose.

[B]

Her identity was very much wrapped up into.

[C]

Yeah. Me.

[A]

So then when you talk about the switch of reassuring her and being there.

[C]

For her.

[A]

As a codependent person, which you are when she's gone, what's your purpose now?

[C]

Yeah. I.

[B]

Briefly brought that up with him today about, like, that feeling of not being, quote, unquote, like, suicidal.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But also that feeling of, like.

[A]

You.

[B]

Know, we've talked about this, where it's like, well, what am I doing here?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

It doesn't matter either way, good or bad. I got nothing to share with anybody and the struggles I have with living life for myself.

[C]

And. Yeah, you're right.

[B]

I didn't link it to codependency, but I linked it more to.

[C]

Oh, man.

[B]

I linked it to.

[C]

You.

[B]

You don't know what you don't know. And so I thought that's what love is. And he even asked me today, he said, when you talk about that protection that she had, did you see that as love?

[C]

And.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely I did.

[A]

And with what you know now, what.

[C]

Do you think.

[B]

That'S too much love Smothering.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Love is.

[A]

What do you think love is now?

[C]

Oh, man.

[B]

This is going to be a moment where I say, I don't know.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

I don't know yet.

[A]

I have a question that may get cut out of this episode.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Have you noticed that what you just described as thinking of as love.

[C]

Mm.

[A]

Is how you are treating your current partnership, and it's causing some problems.

[B]

How so?

[A]

Well, what are the problems you're having?

[B]

Distance.

[A]

Because.

[B]

Attention.

[A]

I want to be with you all the time.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So it makes sense that, you know, you're the women who raised you were modeling this behavior. You think that's what love is. And now that's how you show love. And when you're in a relationship with somebody who is a little more healed and not codependent.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They're going, hey, this isn't what it's supposed to be like. And that can be ouchie.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Does that make sense?

[B]

Yeah, I can see that.

[C]

Man.

[B]

It's crazy. I don't feel like I am anywhere near close to talking about it, but I have been going to codependency meetings the last couple weeks.

[A]

Coda, shout out.

[B]

And it is crazy. What I'm discovering is linked to codependency. And, yeah, every time you get out.

[A]

Of one of those, you got. You have some nuggets.

[B]

Dude, I'm wrecked, buddy.

[A]

Wrecked.

[B]

It's a fist fight every week. I'm like, oh, that was. That's. That.

[A]

That's what that is.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I relate to some of the things you come out with.

[C]

They hit home for me. Yeah.

[B]

Really?

[A]

For sure. I've said it on here. One of the things that Ken said of, like, doing things for your partner and then getting resentful when they don't do it back.

[B]

I have that. Yeah, that with you.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, yeah, that's something that I'm like, damn it. Like. And I. Yeah, Yeah, I relate to that. I got some codependency in me, for sure. And when I look at past relationships, definitely. Yeah, it definitely had some.

[B]

It's so weird what you think is love when you're young.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's so much even now.

[A]

I mean, so many people are like, it's for this perfect thing, and you can't. Oh, when I'm not with them, I think about it. Hey, man, you're an individual human.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you're allowed to have a light when they're gone. It's okay to not think about them all the time.

[B]

Yeah, that's okay.

[A]

Because you know you're coming home to each other.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's. Love is not wondering, are they thinking about me? Like, I'm thinking about. Like, you don't have to worry about it. So I'm gonna see you at home tonight. All right, let's take our last break.

[B]

That's right. You're hearing another ad. Yes, more ads. But you could. You could avoid this by going to Patreon. You wouldn't hear any of this. You'd almost be done with. You probably would be done with this episode.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Tell me how they can Contact us.

[B]

You contact us by looking at this screen right here. And if you're listening to this, good luck, because I don't know the number. It's 8, 1, 8, 7.

[C]

Nope.

[A]

It is in the episode description. It's right below. It's right along with the link to better help you guys. If you want to get in therapy, do it.

[C]

Yes, please do.

[A]

Give us a little discount. Oh, yeah, Contact us. What else you gotta say?

[B]

Oh, box here. You can. You can send us stuff. Send us a mail. Postcards. We love to. We love to see what your life. Just a little window into your life, you know, that'd be nice.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Please go to Patreon so we can stop these commercial breaks. They're killing me. So we talked about, like, not having what feels like home and how to make myself feel like home. That's one of our goals. We set goals.

[A]

Hey, have you ever done that in therapy?

[B]

Once.

[A]

Nice.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Been a while.

[B]

My other therapist never asked, you know, and who am I to interrupt? You know, who am I to tell them what my needs are to interrupt.

[A]

This monologue this woman has gone on?

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So what are your goals?

[B]

Well, learning how to process grief in a way that is healthy and manageable and actually do it. Learn how to process emotions. Really? Because I was again, telling him about, like, I was just never taught that. And so learning how to process emotions is big. And grief and working our way through that. We're gonna do a little ifs. Because I told him, I was like, I'm very interested in figuring out my parts and going down and talking to some folks. He goes, I love to hear you say that you are interested in going down and talking to some folks. He goes, I. I love that. Great.

[A]

Oh, it's gonna be the worst.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I was like, yeah, Because a lot of, like, what I'm finding out, like, as I dig deeper into these things, a lot of it is shame and anxiety. Like, I gotta go down there and have some words with these guys.

[A]

Hey, man.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

No, you know, Yeah, I know.

[B]

I gotta have some words. But he also. You know what he said? He goes, it's important the way that we talk to our parts. He said, you can't. We can't go down there and be aggressive because they probably will not be really receptive to that.

[A]

Got to go from the core self.

[C]

Y. Yep.

[B]

Do you like this guy?

[A]

I like him.

[B]

We were talking about. I was talking about this with the. The pit bull last week.

[A]

MTG.

[B]

About, like, core self and who Is Michael. And, like, all those things. And one of the things she was saying was the. The inner critic. She asked me whose voice that was. Any guesses?

[A]

I mean, it's either you or your mom.

[B]

It's mom.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

That makes sense. How'd that feel?

[B]

Like love.

[A]

Good God, man. Ouchy.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the protection that she is providing in those moments feels like love, you know, like, even when it's criticism. So, like, let's use the example. Like, my mother was nowhere near alive when I got my neck tattoo. But had that happened?

[A]

Nowhere near alive. Incredible way to describe somebody. Nowhere near taking a breath. Was that.

[C]

No. No.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So had I told my mother, I'm gonna get a neck tattoo.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

She would lose her mind, and she would tell me how people would judge me and this and that. However I would receive that as love. She's trying to protect me.

[A]

She's looking out for you.

[B]

She's looking out for me. She's telling me that people are going to think X, Y, and Z about me because of this.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So don't do that. And that's what I thought love was or is. So even in the moments of criticism.

[C]

Or.

[B]

Judgment or any of that, it still feels like love.

[A]

I'm gonna.

[C]

I'm gonna one up you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know if this is going to be new in a new thought for you.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What are your. What's your idea? When people. When your mother says, well, people are going to think. I've discovered that's what that person thinks. Like, if someone comes to me in the. Like my mom, People are going to think. You're not. No, that's what you think. That's what you think when someone comes in with their arms covered in tattoos. That's what you think.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's okay. If you're gonna think that. You're not gonna think that about me because you're gonna see that I'm the same person. But just because that's what you think doesn't mean that's what people are gonna think.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I noticed that with you a lot.

[C]

You're.

[A]

You're often. Because that's what people are going to think of me. I think that's what you think of people who do that. And I think it sounds like one of the things that got passed down for your mom was a lot of judgment.

[B]

Oh, absolutely.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I am. That's exactly where that came from. That. That worried about how I'm being perceived is directly from her. Again, it goes into this Conversation we've had of, like, the house has to be in a certain way all the time. We have to be presentable. We can't leave the house looking like this. And, like, all of these things that are presentable actions, I mean, at their core, they're false. The house is never this clean. The house is never as clean as when company's coming over.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You never look as good until you're going out. You know what I mean? That kind of thing. Like, it's all this show.

[A]

So why are you still participating in the show?

[B]

It's such a. It's so ingrained in me that I. I literally don't know how to look at it any other way. And so when you and I get in conversations about, like, societal norms and this and that, it's so deeply ingrained in me that, like, the thought of being like, oh, I don't let them think that. Like, oh, my God, that's so hard for me.

[A]

So let me ask you a question, because I've challenged you on some of that before.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

For example, we were. You were. You bought something off Facebook Marketplace for your room. It was five minutes away.

[C]

Mm.

[A]

We needed to take my truck. I'll give you a ride. But to go pick up this thing that you bought from a stranger on Facebook Marketplace, you showered, put on an outfit, put on cologne.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And then we're driving over there, and I asked you. I go, why did you need to get ready for this? And your response was, what's wrong with. I forget how you phrased it. Take it. You said, what's wrong with taking pride in yourself?

[C]

Or.

[A]

What do you think you would have said there?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What's wrong with, like, wanting to feel good or taking pride in your appearance or, like, wanting to feel, like, fresh?

[A]

Is that really what it is?

[B]

Sometimes. Sometimes it is, sometimes it is. Like, I. But I don't know where that line is. I think that's where it comes into place. Like, I don't know where that line. I don't know how much is me being like, I want to feel good and fresh and how much is. What are they going to think of me if I show up looking like a. Yeah, whatever.

[A]

When's the last time you left the house without being done up and with cologne?

[B]

I couldn't tell you. I have to smell nice.

[C]

Why.

[B]

You want to be the smelly dude?

[A]

You know, you probably could smell like, nothing.

[B]

Why? I think that's more. And now, see, again, I don't know where that line is. It's so Blurry between I don't want to be the smelly dude. Like, what would people think of me? And like, I want to smell nice. And because I want to smell nice. That line is so blurry.

[A]

It's interesting that I want to smell nice is outside of the house. And it's not like it's just for you. Because you would also do while you're at home.

[B]

I do sometimes when I smell nice.

[C]

Right now. Yeah.

[A]

How about when you're not on camera? How about when you don't feel like you're being seen by the public?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

That'S true.

[A]

I know what the. So it is for me. I do like to smell nice.

[C]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Sometimes I get showered and shaved and smell nice and don't go anywhere, don't do anything.

[A]

Okay. How often is that? Are you feeling defensive right now? Are you feeling attacked?

[B]

No, I'm trying to honestly take an intake about, like, when do I do that? And usually it's after. Honestly, those moments are usually after a couple days of not showering, which is rare for me. Remember the other day I came downstairs and I was like, dude, I haven't showered in what feels like forever, and it was like two days.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you were like, what? Like, dude, it's been forever. Like, that's forever for me. So I get to a point like that where that's for me. If I go a couple days without taking care of myself, I'm like, all right, I gotta.

[C]

I gotta.

[A]

Why does it need cologne, though?

[B]

I just. It feels complete without cologne. I'm like, what are we, what are we doing? You're not done. We're not done yet.

[A]

Taking a shower.

[B]

Yeah. But you want to smell nice.

[A]

That's what the soaps for.

[B]

You don't always wear cologne.

[A]

I rarely wear cologne.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. I know. Cool.

[A]

Cologne around the house with my.

[C]

No. Yeah.

[A]

That ain't for me.

[C]

Huh?

[A]

Just for you.

[C]

Huh?

[B]

Some days.

[A]

Okie dokie.

[B]

That doesn't make you feel good?

[A]

No. No. Taking a shower and putting on cologne to sit at home, I'd be like, oh, well, it's a waste of cologne.

[B]

Really?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But you also don't dress up a whole lot either.

[C]

No.

[B]

Like you're very like, you're. You're in the Sandler. In the Sandler?

[A]

Yeah. If I'm dressing up, it means I have long pants on.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

Otherwise I'm in.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I made either basketball shorts or like linen mid thigh shorts and a T shirt. Yeah. Usually a long sleeve tee in the summer for the tattoos.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I'm getting better at just wearing, like, T shirt and shorts around the house, but.

[A]

Around the house, wow.

[B]

But I like to hold on.

[A]

I just want to commend your bravery. That is brave.

[B]

I like to get dressed. I like to. It makes me feel good to be put together.

[A]

Interesting. You're struggling a lot for a guy who feels good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, it's almost like somebody taught you that looking good feels good, and that's like all that matters and nothing. And then the rest of it just isn't real.

[C]

From connecting the real world to the digital world to making them one your.

[A]

Way to a sustainable digital enterprise. Transform the everyday with Siemens.

[D]

I'm here on the job site with Dale, who's a framing contractor.

[A]

Hey, good morning.

[D]

Dale traded up to Geico Commercial Auto Insurance for all his business vehicles. We're here where he needs us most.

[A]

Yep, they sure are.

[D]

We make it easy for him to save on all his insurance needs all in one place with coverage that fits his business and bottom line. Oh, I shouldn't have looked down.

[A]

It's all right.

[D]

We're so far up here.

[A]

Look at me. Take a deep breath.

[D]

Oh, I'm good. So good.

[B]

Get a commercial auto insurance quote [e-mail] and see how much you could save.

[C]

Get more with Geico.

[A]

And we know that.