Relational vs. Non-Relational Thinking | #099

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy | Episode #099

Relational vs. Non-Relational Thinking
Release Date: September 15, 2025
Hosts: Louie Paoletti, Michael Malone, and Travis

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Episode Overview

In this characteristically raw and funny episode of Secondhand Therapy, the hosts dive deep into the cognitive divide between relational and non-relational thinking. Using their recent therapy sessions and real-life emotional pangs—like heartbreak, grief, and family dynamics—as jumping-off points, Louie, Michael, and Travis unpack how they process experiences differently and what it means for growth, communication, and lived relationships. The hosts poke fun at themselves and each other, probe therapy insights, and draw out distinctions between emotional and logical minds—all while weaving in their trademark honest banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shopping Metaphor for Relationships

(07:12) Travis relays his therapist's comparison of dating to shopping:

• Travis’s therapist says dating should be like shopping for a shirt—you know your preferences, but sometimes, no matter how much you love something, it doesn’t fit.
  • “But stop trying to suck in your gut and hunch and do all these things to make something fit that just doesn't fit... Sometimes a great shirt just doesn't fit.” — Travis (07:17)
• The hosts riff on how people force themselves into ill-fitting relationships, sharing laughter and commiseration over heartbreak.
  • “Just crying in the dressing room.” — Michael (08:01)

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2. Heartbreak, Grief, and the Pain of 'What Ifs'

(08:30 – 17:30)

• Michael gets candid about his fresh heartbreak grief, describing days measured by whether or not he broke down.
• Grief’s addictive power: Michael recounts a talk he heard on grief and addiction, noting the neurological overlap.
  • “Turns out... your brain treats it like an addiction. So it's like those same kind of things are getting activated.” — Michael (12:02)
• The endlessly looping ‘What If’—regret vs. rumination:
  • “You love a what if... you could daydream all day on a what if.” — Travis (14:39)
  • Travis emphasizes that even if someone were still alive or still with you, your influence would likely be limited: “Even if you do it differently, it doesn't mean it's going to be received well...” (15:17)

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3. Family Dynamics: Guilt & Connection

(18:06 – 26:00)

• Travis discusses the guilt he feels enjoying his partner’s family more than his own.
  • “There's more connection. More in common. And it's a bummer.” — Travis (22:41)
• He highlights curiosity, openness, and directness that are missing from his own family dynamic.
• The group explores whether to accept the limits of familial relationships or risk seeking deeper connection by initiating conversations—a dilemma recurring in Travis's and Michael's therapies.
  • “It's acceptance versus desiring change.” — Travis (26:41)

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4. Relational vs. Non-Relational Thinking: The Core Topic

(35:21 – 53:00)

Defining the Divide

• Prompted by Michael’s therapy, the group probes how some people ground their emotions in context ('relational thinking') vs. those who don’t (‘non-relational thinking’).
  • “He said, it sounds like you're a relational thinker. And he's a non-relational thinker.” — Michael (37:37)
  • Travis jokes: “Relational thinking is typically tied to stupid people and non-relational thinking is for higher intelligent beings. Did I get that right?” (38:04)
• Baseball Metaphor: To illustrate, Travis suggests a hypothetical where Michael is hit with a baseball. Michael spirals through all the context: Who threw it? Was it intentional? What’s the relationship? Travis counters by focusing on the event alone.
  • “You're mad and you have a problem now.” — Lou, summarizing Michael’s chain of logic (46:58)

Emotional vs. Logical Processing

• Michael unpacks how emotional (relational) thinkers use context for calibration:
  • “I need more information before I can decide how I feel about the situation.” — Michael (40:20)
  • Travis remains uninterested in context: “The reality is, I got hit with a baseball... I don't see the benefit in making it emotional.” (51:05)
• Wise Mind Venn Diagram: Travis recounts a therapy tool blending 'logical' and 'emotional' into 'wise mind'.
  • “And then the middle where they overlap is, was labeled wise mind. So the way you can hybrid them together.” — Travis (64:15)

Downsides to Each Style

• Michael’s relational style triggers anxiety spirals by over-interpreting simple feedback.
  • “That is the spiderweb effect. And that's also like anxiety and like all the other things mixed in there.” — Michael (59:24)
  • Travis, deadpan: “How have you not killed yourself? ...That is exhausting, dude.” (61:16)
• Debate over the merits and pitfalls of seeking more information versus accepting limited data, looping back to codependence, people-pleasing, and the difference between empathy and sympathy.

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5. Empathy, Trauma, and Codependence

(54:00 – 57:00)

• Michael observes that his attunement to others is rooted in trauma—his “bloodhound” empathy from childhood is both a survival mechanism and, he argues, sometimes a strength.
  • “I think you Confuse empathy with sympathy... and people pleasing, as you've said, being a bloodhound to your mother's emotions...” — Travis (54:07)
  • Michael acknowledges the link and discusses the (dubious) adaptive upside.

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6. Notable Quotes & Exchanges

On seeking information vs. acceptance:

• “For me, I feel like I'm choosing clarity.” — Michael (62:17)
• “You're choosing the most comfortable way to get through the feeling.” — Travis (62:13)

On spiraling:

• “I've been working on stopping that spiral or at least trying to pause and ask myself questions in the moment...” — Michael (59:57)

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Memorable Moments

• The 'fisting tattoo' riff during heartbreak banter (09:49):

  • “He has a tattoo on his back that says, fist me with both hands. It's in hieroglyphics.” — Travis

• Light/dark tonal shifts noted by the hosts themselves (34:03):

  • Michael: “The bipolarness of that episode... so happy and fun and fast and like. And then it just turns and it is slow motion.”

• Travis’s directness on processing:

  • “I take that as a great compliment. Thank you.” — Travis, on being in tune but selecting his engagement (56:19)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 07:12 — Travis shares the 'shopping for relationships' metaphor
• 12:02 — Michael relays neuroscience of grief and addiction
• 14:39 — Travis calls out the seductive nature of 'What Ifs'
• 19:24–22:41 — Travis and hosts discuss familial guilt and connection
• 35:21–46:58 — Relational vs. non-relational thinking debate, baseball metaphor
• 54:07–54:53 — Empathy, trauma, people-pleasing reflections
• 64:10 — Wise Mind Venn diagram described

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Podcast Tone & Language

The hosts maintain their signature frank, often irreverent tone, blending humor and candor:

• Playful, explicit jokes, even regarding emotional pain (“fist me with both hands” tattoo)
• Occasional deadpan or mocking exchanges, always self-aware (“You’re mad and you have a problem now…”)
• Honesty in reflecting confusion, contradiction, and vulnerability about their mental health journeys.

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Final Thoughts

This episode reveals the powerful ways that our cognitive habits—whether relational or non-relational—shape our reactions, relationships, and even suffering. By dissecting their own biases with humor and empathy, the hosts illustrate how therapy language, childhood wiring, and day-to-day conversations intersect in the struggle to heal and connect.

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For more real talk on mental health (and plenty of laughs), check out the ad-free and bonus episodes on Patreon.

Transcript

[Travis]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. Jesus.

[Michael]

That's a bear.

[Lou]

It's not.

[Travis]

Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And, you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.

[Michael]

Right.

[Travis]

If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use BetterHelp recently? Yes, I have.

[Michael]

I just signed up.

[Travis]

How'd it go?

[Michael]

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch like a. There's like two or three pages of people that I got to choose from and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago.

[Lou]

Nice.

[Travis]

Have you used their journal feature?

[Michael]

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.

[Travis]

Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just. It's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better help's a good option. And they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys. If you're listening and you want to start with BetterHelp, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Getting therapy, you know, it's great.

[Michael]

Check it out. Welcome back to Secondhand Therapy. I'm gonna remind you that we are not therapists. This is not professional advice. This is not a substitute for therapy. And we are not licensed professionals in any way. That's pretty good.

[Travis]

It's close. It's pretty close.

[Michael]

Nailed it, dude.

[Travis]

Nope, it was close.

[Michael]

Close to nailing it, dude.

[Travis]

Close to nailing it, dude. That's right.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Anyways, since you're here and you're listening to wherever you're listening to this, go ahead and give us a. Like, go ahead and follow us. Share the episode, tell a friend.

[Travis]

Five star review or go yourself.

[Michael]

Star review.

[Travis]

It's a five star review. Or go your mother.

[Michael]

Wow.

[Travis]

Is that too much?

[Michael]

That's abrasive.

[Travis]

I stand by it, to be honest.

[Michael]

Well, welcome back to Secondhand Therapy. There will be ads. You're going to hear ads. So if you want to avoid those, head on over to Patreon Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to episodes and an entirely different non therapy podcast with over 40 episodes just waiting for you to binge all over on Patreon along with merch discounts. We're going live on Thursday night.

[Travis]

This Thursday.

[Michael]

So if you're listening to it in a timely fashion.

[Travis]

I'm not gonna go. I'm not gonna.

[Michael]

Actually, if you're listening to this now, you've missed it. You've missed the live. You missed last week.

[Travis]

It was last Thursday, but I wasn't there.

[Michael]

If you join Patreon, you'll. You'll hit the next one. So we do live shows where we actually interact with people.

[Travis]

Yeah, we do them like Google hangout style so we can all.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Hang out.

[Michael]

And there's like a little chat room people. There's like a little community over there. You should go check it out. Join Patreon, add free episodes. A bunch of other happening. Also, if you want to contact us, you can send us physical mail, you can text us, you can email us, you can be voice notes, whatever you want to do. All that information is in the description below along with the Patreon information. We love you. Like share, subscribe, enjoy the episode.

[Travis]

We also have merch available secondhand therapypod.com. heard a rumor we might be dropping some tie dye hoodies. I heard. I don't know.

[Michael]

I like that rumor.

[Travis]

The tie dye teas, people eating them up.

[Lou]

The tie dye.

[Michael]

These are fire.

[Travis]

You might be dropping tie dye hoodies, buddy. We'll let you know.

[Michael]

All right, enjoy the episode. Bye.

[Travis]

Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Michael]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[Lou]

And we know that.

[Travis]

Did you really cry before this?

[Lou]

Yeah. Why? You don't.

[Michael]

Why?

[Lou]

No, I don't.

[Michael]

It hit me that grand. That grief snuck up on me. That grief came up behind me.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Snuck up on me.

[Travis]

Bench over the bathroom counter.

[Lou]

Real good, buddy. Real good.

[Michael]

Just crying.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

The old post breakup blues, my guy.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

What? What is it about that's sad? Like you're missing her? Or is it the reality that she hasn't thought about you in weeks?

[Michael]

Oh, God. Both.

[Lou]

Both. Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

Both.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Can I share something with you? I was talking about your relate.

[Lou]

All right, your turn.

[Travis]

May I share something with you?

[Michael]

Of course.

[Travis]

I was talking about your relationship in therapy a few weeks ago.

[Michael]

Really?

[Travis]

Yeah. While you guys were still together.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Travis]

And she asked me, she's like, how do you think it ends? And I like, we know how this ends. I didn't say that. I'm lying. But then my therapist. You want to know what my therapist said about relationships and dating?

[Michael]

I would love to hear this.

[Travis]

Well, she said we should really be treating it like shopping. And I'm gonna expound on that.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Michael]

Because that sounds.

[Travis]

Sounds a little.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

A little ridiculous. People aren't objects.

[Lou]

Right, Right, right.

[Travis]

So she said if people should treat dating like shopping, in that, you can, you know what you like, you know what fabrics you like, you know what colors you like, you know what fit you like. You know what you like.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You're at the store shopping. You spot an incredible, incredible garment on the rack. You pick it up. Oh, my God. It's stunning. It's everything I like. Damn. It's a size too small now. What do you do? Put it back. There's options, right?

[Michael]

A guy like me, I try to squeeze into that thing.

[Travis]

Oh, a guy like you. I'll take four. So you have options.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You can put it back on the rack. And there's nothing wrong with that. You can take it to the dressing room and try it on. Nothing wrong with that. You can try it on in the dressing room for as long as you'd like. You can also buy it.

[Lou]

But you.

[Travis]

Just have to be honest with yourself. How badly are you going to have to contort yourself to fit into this piece of clothing?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So you can buy it. You can even try it on, or you can just put it back on the rack. But stop trying to suck in your gut and hunch and do all these things to make something fit that just doesn't fit. And just because it doesn't fit doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the shirt. It's not a bad shirt. It's not a terrible shirt. It just didn't fit. Sometimes a great shirt just doesn't fit.

[Lou]

I love that.

[Michael]

That's. That's pretty good.

[Travis]

It's pretty good.

[Lou]

That's.

[Travis]

My therapist told me about dating.

[Lou]

Ah.

[Travis]

So how's your love life?

[Michael]

Just crying in the dressing room.

[Travis]

You just returned the shirt? Yeah, I returned it. And it's only store credit.

[Lou]

What the.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man, I'm hurting.

[Lou]

It's just.

[Michael]

It's. I don't know.

[Travis]

I.

[Michael]

I thought.

[Lou]

I.

[Michael]

I don't know. It's just one of those things with, like, what we were talking about with grief, too, because it is in that category. It's like, I had a. I had a good day on Sunday. I went for a hike. I made some food. We hung out. Like, I had a good day on Sunday.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I Was like. And I made it all the way through the day without crying, without having a breakdown. And I was like, we did it. We did it.

[Travis]

I'm healed.

[Michael]

We. Well, not healed, but we're just like. We made it through the day.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

That's great.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

First. First time. So I was like, yeah, Day one, here we are.

[Travis]

Day one of the rest of your life.

[Michael]

Day one.

[Lou]

And.

[Michael]

And I took a shower before bed, and then. I don't know if I'm gonna share.

[Travis]

You want me to do it?

[Michael]

Sure.

[Travis]

Really?

[Michael]

I don't know. I don't know if I want to share. It's.

[Travis]

It's a little inside thing.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It's an insight.

[Lou]

So. Yeah.

[Michael]

Something.

[Travis]

She loved anal. What?

[Michael]

She loved giving anal. That's where you keep messing up. That's important.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

If you guys don't know this about Michael, he has a tattoo on his back that says, fist me with both hands. It's in hieroglyphics.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It says, if you're reading this, you should be fisting me.

[Travis]

Should be visiting with both hands.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I made it all the way through the night, and I showered, and then I was getting ready for bed, and something triggered me. A thing that she always used to do and just started balling.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Right before, you know, right at the goal line, you know, I mean, I was like, oh, we did. Nope. Reset the clock.

[Travis]

That's okay.

[Michael]

And that's okay. It's just one of those things where it was like, it doesn't sound like.

[Travis]

It'S okay with you. I'm gonna be honest. You sound upset about this.

[Michael]

It just hurts.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I don't think anybody's excited to be hurt. You know, it's just one of those things where I'm like, still hurts.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Heartbreak sucks.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

Man.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I told you this, and it's kind of in the same field, but I was listening to this woman speaking about grief when I was telling you about it, and she. She said a couple interesting things, but one of them was two things. One of them was that they did studies back in the day to see if people could get addicted to grief. Because when they were doing the neuroscience studies with. Seeing, like, what brainwaves were affected and, like, all that stuff that happens when people are grieving, that it's the same brain activity as addiction that's getting, like, activated.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And so they're like, oh, shit.

[Lou]

Are.

[Michael]

Are people. Can people be addicted to grief? And so then, like, a bunch of studies came. Like, of course, without doing further studies. A bunch of people, like, wrote a bunch of papers about it being like, you could be addicted to grief. And then they're like, hold on. And so then they did further studies, and they're like, no, but it does live in the same area as your brain. The same, like, because it's like a dopamine thing. Dopamine withdrawals and things like that is. Is similar to the activation of grief, which I thought was really interesting and sometimes why it's so hard for us to. I don't want to say get over, because you never really get over grief. You just carry it with you. And so, yeah, it's like, it's because it's the same. Your brain treats it like an addiction. So it's like those same kind of things are getting activated. So, like, of course, even, like, years later, you're like. In the ways that you'll have that addiction itch of being like, oh, man, I could. I could go for that. It's like, in the different way, you're like, oh, God, that hurts. Like, I remember them or this or this thing will come up, and it hurts in the same way.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I thought that was really interesting.

[Travis]

That is interesting. I think we should send you to rehab, you know?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It's been my drug of choice.

[Lou]

Love it. Oh, buddy.

[Michael]

Put it in my veins.

[Travis]

Put it right in his veins.

[Lou]

Put it in my veins.

[Michael]

But she had a lot of interesting things to say about, like, how we treat people that like. And the. The similarities of heartbreak and grief she was talking about, too, about how, like, the. The differences are. Or the. Sorry, the. The similarities are the. When we start going down that what if path. And you and I have talked about that a bunch, like, in. Because we get caught up in idea of, like, what if I would have shown up more? What if I would have done this? What if I would have done that? It's the same language when somebody passes and a breakup happens.

[Lou]

If I.

[Michael]

If I would have done more. If I would have. You know, it's identical language. Yeah, I thought that was interesting, too.

[Travis]

You love a what if. Oh, buddy, I. Yeah, it is nice. Yeah, what if's great. You could daydream all day on a what if.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's nice.

[Travis]

I enjoy it sometimes.

[Michael]

But the truth, as we all know, is that. The truth is that you can do that all day, but they're not here.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Whether it's a breakup or whether it's grief or, you know, for the dead, like, they're not here. So what if you would have done this? What if you would. Hey, they're not here.

[Travis]

I have a different or a different perspective on that.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

I think even if they were here, if you're honest with yourself, you know who they are and what they're capable of.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So even if you do it differently, it doesn't mean it's going to be received well or received positively or change anything.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But it's. It's a fun daydream to think you could change things.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

With a simple.

[Travis]

Speech or sentence or action, but that's usually not real or how it goes.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You know.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I had to stop playing that game years ago, and it took me a while.

[Travis]

I was gonna say, when did you stop, though? I know you had to.

[Michael]

But no, Yeah, I mean. Well, I think there's a difference between regret and what if. Like, I still have some regrets that came up in therapy this week, but we'll talk about that later. But, yeah, I think regrets and what ifs are very different. And I had to stop doing the what if game a few years ago, and it came up in a conversation a few months ago, and you and I talked about this off air.

[Lou]

But.

[Michael]

I was talking to somebody from my hometown, and they hold a lot of resentment about me leaving my hometown.

[Lou]

And.

[Michael]

We got into, like, a little tiff and you talked about the sauna.

[Lou]

Did I?

[Michael]

Oh, I didn't think I did. I thought maybe I shared on after the pod.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But basically, yeah, they were just saying, like, yeah, if I would have stuck around, then things would be different with my mother.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

No, they wouldn't.

[Michael]

Yeah, exactly. And I. I've. I had to tell them because I've had to tell myself that years ago is just like, in every scenario, she. She dies. Whether I'm there, whether I'm not, whether I spent more time, whether I didn't spend time, whether I didn't see her at all, whatever the. Like, in every scenario, she's gone.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So hard to stop an embolism from happening, you know?

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That what if game is dangerous.

[Travis]

I have a question. Why is that person still in your life?

[Michael]

That's a conversation for another time.

[Lou]

Oh, okay.

[Travis]

Well, what should we talk about now?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

How was your therapy? What's going on with you? You didn't get to share last week.

[Travis]

I did not get to share last week, and I will not be sharing what happened last week. I'm just kidding.

[Lou]

I'll talk about it.

[Travis]

I don't give a. Yeah, last week I talked about. Because last weekend I was in la. Visiting. I went to LA with my girl, visiting her family.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And I had a great time and. Which led me to a realization that I have realized that I enjoy spending time with her family more than mine. And I feel guilty about that, even.

[Lou]

Though.

[Travis]

There'S nothing wrong with that.

[Michael]

Can I ask why you feel that way?

[Travis]

Which way?

[Michael]

Why do you feel either better or more comfortable with her family than yours?

[Travis]

Why do I enjoy it more?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

They have a lot of connection.

[Lou]

And.

[Travis]

There'S a lot of. There's just a lot of different types.

[Lou]

Of.

[Travis]

Conversation happening and connection happening.

[Lou]

And.

[Michael]

So there's more communication, more life, more.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

And it's. It's more. It's more my speed. I have more fun.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I don't. I wish I could label it better. More connection is the best. Is the most accurate way I can talk or label it, I think. Or quantify it.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Do you think that they're actually more fun or do you think that you're able to detach, like, these feelings of whatever you have towards your family, whether it be resentment or regret or whatever you have with. With the feelings of your family? Do you think just. You don't have those attachments with them? Do you think that plays into it?

[Travis]

It's a good question.

[Michael]

I don't really.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I think. I also think I just have more in common with them when it comes to just any. Anything, Talking, joking, watching something like.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I mean, her. My girl has. She has three sisters. My girl's the youngest, so I was gonna say her older sister, but they're all older.

[Lou]

Her.

[Travis]

One of her older sisters is a therapist.

[Lou]

And.

[Travis]

I mean, we can talk all day long.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's great.

[Travis]

But. Yeah, like, we could be not even in a therapy conversation. And she'll just, like. She just turned to me and she's like, hey, can I ask you something? I'm like, yep. She goes, after your last partner passed, did you ever have any things of, like she's trying to contact you or anything? Which is not a therapy question.

[Lou]

Right.

[Travis]

It's not. It's just a general inquiry, but it's about something personal in my life.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And your family would never.

[Travis]

Most people would never.

[Michael]

Right, right.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And I like that. I like that.

[Michael]

Yeah. You're very curious, dude.

[Travis]

I'm curious and I don't want a small talk. Yes. Ask me about the ghost of my dead ex.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So it's just. It's more. It's real conversation, but a lot of times it is just around and this and. But I. It's just.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I enjoy it more.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

There's more connection. More. More in common. And it's a bummer.

[Michael]

Why do you feel like it's a bummer?

[Travis]

Because, you know, it's not a bummer. I just feel guilty.

[Michael]

It just feels wrong.

[Travis]

It does feel wrong.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Yeah, it feels wrong. And I don't know why. I mean, society programming, but.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Yeah. There. Because I know, you know, my therapist started doing dirty. Like I was just gonna say, like, I know that I'm not doing anything wrong by that, by saying that or by feeling it or by believing it. And she keeps going.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You know that. Here she goes, what about. What about your body? Yeah, I know you watch your goddamn mouth, so. I do know that. But it's one of those things of. My nervous system doesn't.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And I just. Just. Yeah, it's weird. It's this weird guilt that I don't know one. If they hear this, big problem, big problem.

[Michael]

What about your family hearing this?

[Travis]

That's what I'm saying.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

No, her family.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Text me. I'm so happy.

[Michael]

I just thought it might be awkward for you. You're like, hey, we heard you love us.

[Lou]

No.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lou]

No.

[Travis]

My girl told me that same sister I was. I had to go to. I ran to like, actual LA to get a desk and blah, blah, blah. So she picked up my girl. And my girl, she told me, she's like, yeah. She was saying she really likes you and she enjoys talking to you and like, she's really happy. And I'm like, I know.

[Lou]

So, yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

It's all. It's all mutual, which is great.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I just know that, like, I don't know that would hurt my mom and my sister to know that, but it is the truth.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I was wondering if the guilt was linked to them finding out and.

[Travis]

No, I just. I know if they did, it would hurt them.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And I feel guilty about them being hurt by my feelings, even though those are my feelings.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And it's a bummer. And it'd be great if, you know, if, you know, they did find out or hear this or whatever. If they go, oh, what's. What's different? What do you enjoy about it? And, like, came at it with curiosity.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But, like, that ain't gonna happen.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So that led into talking about if I. Kind of the same thing we've been talking about more. So for my sister, this. This go round of like, do I want to one ask how they feel about our connection and ask them, would you be interested in trying to have a deeper connection and have a better relationship?

[Lou]

And I don't know if I want to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

It's the same thing we've talked about with my mom of like, you feel like you're.

[Michael]

You're. You're gonna carry the heavy lifting on that.

[Travis]

Well, I was. I was gonna finish the sentence. I feel.

[Michael]

You feel proud of yourself for saying that just now.

[Travis]

No, just because in my head, I was like, why would he finish my sentence? I'm gonna do it. You just had to put a guess out there, didn't you? What the Are we talking about? You know, I don't know.

[Michael]

Finish your sentence.

[Lou]

Oh, yeah.

[Travis]

It's. It's acceptance versus desiring change. It's the same options.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I can either accept what it is and be okay with it.

[Lou]

Or.

[Travis]

But also, I could ask both of them, hey, how do you. And they're like, I have no problems. Like, we're fine. And then I have to, you know, accept that.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So.

[Travis]

I don't know, man.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

Families are tricky, dude.

[Michael]

Oh, hey.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You know, my therapist also said. Just kind of in passing, because I was. She was like, oh, like, talking about what? Blah, blah. She goes, never politics. Never bring politics in the family.

[Lou]

Really? Yeah.

[Michael]

Even in today's.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That's crazy.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

I kind of get it, though, because. And you're kind of a poster child for this. Even if you know the truth, it's not gonna. You're not gonna cut them out.

[Michael]

Right.

[Travis]

So enjoy them for what you can. Why bring contention into it? It's just pride at that point.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So I kind of get it, but. Or unless if you're going to cut off your family, talk about it. Yeah, but you got to put your balls on the table, man.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

If they're gonna go, I think our president's doing a great job. You gotta say goodbye forever.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And that is what it is. Otherwise, just don't bring it up.

[Michael]

We've stopped talking about it.

[Travis]

Smart.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

What's the point?

[Michael]

We've also. I think we've only talked twice this year. We just talked yesterday, but.

[Travis]

How'd it go?

[Michael]

Great. No politics.

[Travis]

See, look at that.

[Michael]

We did talk about the breakup.

[Lou]

Huh?

[Travis]

Why would you do that to yourself?

[Michael]

I. I didn't. She brought it up.

[Travis]

She listens to the pod.

[Michael]

No.

[Travis]

Well, then how did she know?

[Michael]

Because I'm a sad boy online.

[Lou]

Oh, yeah.

[Travis]

I forget. You fucking journal. Hey, do you want to read his journal? It's on Threads.

[Michael]

I'm an expressor. I like to express.

[Travis]

Express it into your private journal. Why is your expressions for the public?

[Michael]

I don't know.

[Lou]

Huh.

[Travis]

Go ahead. So she was reading your online journal, huh? And she had questions. Shocking.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And you tell her you're gay?

[Michael]

No, she's been waiting. Didn't tell her my fisting tattoo.

[Travis]

She's been waiting.

[Michael]

She. All her life, she's been waiting my whole hometown.

[Travis]

Yeah, if they could see your legs crossed right now.

[Michael]

Oh, buddy, I can't do that. It's so comfortable.

[Travis]

Thighs are too thick, bro. Yeah, you saw that workout video. You saw daddy's thighs.

[Michael]

So we. She. Here's what she did say, though, which.

[Lou]

I.

[Michael]

Found interesting because it's such like. It's such like a parent thing to do, you know?

[Lou]

No.

[Michael]

Which is like say something without knowing the implications of it. So what she said, you know, like just saying something nonchalantly, but, like wrecking your system.

[Lou]

Right?

[Michael]

So she was like. She was like, I thought you guys were. Were great together. And she goes. And she. And she goes the way you talked about her and the way. Because I sent her a couple photos of us and stuff when we were dating.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

And why is that bad? Why. Why are you doing that?

[Travis]

Hey, why don't you assume positive intent? All I said was, course you did. Go ahead. It's your last living relative, you piece of. So why'd you assume that was an attack?

[Michael]

The tone. He said, of course you did.

[Travis]

Of course you did.

[Lou]

Yeah. Huh.

[Michael]

That's weird.

[Travis]

Okay, how about this? Of course you did.

[Michael]

I think it's even the phrasing.

[Travis]

Huh?

[Michael]

Why does that Phrasing. What is. So the intention behind that was positive.

[Travis]

The intention was you were in a relationship. You often send life updates to your aunt. Yeah, of course you did.

[Lou]

Okay. Anyways.

[Michael]

Here'S what she said. Seems like the kind of girl your mother would have loved.

[Travis]

Well, hey.

[Michael]

Well, I have to go find a tall building right now. I'll call you later. Or I probably won't.

[Travis]

Why is that an ouchie?

[Michael]

Because I've. I've thought that about.

[Travis]

Hold on a minute.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

How did your mom feel about me?

[Michael]

She loved you.

[Travis]

No, seriously, Papa, the truth.

[Michael]

She had no. No qualms with you or the other one?

[Travis]

The other one?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You two came around around the same time. The one that shall not be named.

[Travis]

Okay, first of all, don't say came around. Don't say came around.

[Michael]

Started hanging around. Around. Always travel together.

[Travis]

That's not true.

[Michael]

Well, go ahead. No qualms where there was one, there was the other.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And that was my doing, you cunt. You know me, never traveling alone.

[Lou]

I know. All right, go ahead.

[Travis]

That was ouchie.

[Lou]

Yeah. Okay.

[Michael]

Because. Well, one, like, I thought that, but also, like, that's not what you want to hear after a. A breakup is like, yeah, that's great. Hey, your dead mom would have loved that girl. Why'd you it up?

[Travis]

Oh, well, now I know that's what you heard.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But what she actually said was, sad to hear that.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I think your mom would have really liked her.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Travis]

And you heard. Why'd you that up?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Tight.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Welcome to my brain.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Yeah.

[Travis]

Well, that's why we don't share with her.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

That's a hard one to hear. She was trying to give you a compliment.

[Michael]

Yeah, absolutely. That's what I mean. Like, it's such, like, a parent thing or, like, an older person thing to be like.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

They just say something and it wrecks you, and they have no idea.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

They just, like, move on. Anyways, I'm gonna have some tater tots. And you're like, okay.

[Travis]

You know I love tater tots. Your mother.

[Michael]

Stop it.

[Lou]

Stop it. Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

We started talking about, well, you and I on the show last week.

[Travis]

Go to Patreon.

[Michael]

Oh, buddy, wrong show. It turned in the wrong show.

[Travis]

It started out so fun and light.

[Michael]

The bipolarness of that episode of just, like, so happy and fun and fast and like. And then it just turns and it is slow motion.

[Travis]

The last 20 minutes is so heavy.

[Michael]

It's so heavy. It's heavier than a lot of times this show is.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

Anyway, it's on Patreon.

[Lou]

It is.

[Travis]

It's odd because I think over there, because, like, right now, this is what we usually do. And I think over there, when it gets heavy, we're just like. We just fully. It's so uninhibited.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It feels more private.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Travis]

And for 12amonth, you can watch us. You can watch Very Uncomfortable Conversation, usually weekly.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

We did get a comment on that episode.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Said I need to learn about adhd, because I'm being quite dismissive.

[Lou]

Mm.

[Travis]

And I said, what did you find dismissive? And it's been four days with no.

[Michael]

Reply, so probably have adhd. You know what? They've probably wrote back three different times and have not sent it in.

[Travis]

Well, I wasn't talking to you. I was talking to him.

[Michael]

But one of the things we talked about on there last week was rejection Sensitivity. And so I brought it up with my therapist this week and I was like, hey, this keeps happening in this relationship and others. And I am quick to get defensive and I don't know if it's, if it's all under the umbrella of rejection sensitivity.

[Travis]

Of course you don't.

[Michael]

Or if it's something else, like, what's going on, what's happening with it? And he was honest and he was like, I'm not really that read up on rejection sensitivity. He's like, I know it's an ADHD thing. I know that it's like, you know, very real in that world. And he's like, but I'm just not that read up on it. He's like, why don't you tell me more about what's happening and then we'll see where it kind of lands.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And so I was like, yeah, I'm just getting really defensive. And I kind of recapped our conversation on the show and, and then I also filled him in on like our dynamic a little bit about like context and this and that, the conversations that we've had, because it fell into that same category of like, in that conversation we had last week, we were talking about feedback and critique and things like that and how you're so self assure. And I was like, well, how do you make adjustments? And because I'm constantly making adjustments and I'm getting feedback from all over and like. And I was curious because you're so sure of yourself that even when, sometimes when you receive feedback, you're like, well, that doesn't. Like, if somebody's like, oh, you're rude. No, I'm not.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I. If somebody's like, you're rude. I'm like, oh my God, I'm rude.

[Lou]

I gotta.

[Michael]

Where did I go wrong? What happened? And so we were talking about. I gave him the example that we, I think we talked about it on this show months ago. Was the example of. When we were talking about context, the example of getting hit with a baseball and how you were like, I'm not interested in the context because it doesn't matter. I still got hit with the baseball. It still leaves a bruise.

[Travis]

Also at the end of a recent episode with the dishes.

[Lou]

Yes.

[Travis]

You said, can I tell you why? And I said, not interested.

[Michael]

Right?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And for me, I'm like, that context matters so much. Like, it fills in all this information for me. And, and he said, he hit me with relational thinking. He said, it sounds like you're a relational thinker. And he's A non relational thinker. Which is like.

[Travis]

I actually googled that since you told me that.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And relational thinking is typically tied to stupid people and non relational thinking is for higher intelligent beings. Did I get that right? Did I insult you?

[Michael]

I'm quitting the show.

[Lou]

We did it. We did it.

[Michael]

We finally did it. No, it does go into logic and feelings.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Because.

[Travis]

Oh, I got one for you after this. Yeah, logic and feelings. Remind me.

[Lou]

Yes.

[Michael]

Because for me, that or what relational thinking is. I guess I should explain that is like I'm. I'm seeking more information. So like I get hit with a baseball, I go, who threw that baseball? Why did they throw it? Did they mean to hit me? Where is it coming from? Are they mad at me? What's the relationship like? Like it's spiderwebs for me.

[Travis]

Such a good use of time.

[Michael]

Yeah, it is for me. But that, but what he was saying was he was like, okay, hold on.

[Travis]

Can we do a hypothetical?

[Michael]

Sure.

[Travis]

Okay. You get hit with a baseball. First question.

[Michael]

I'm like, who the threw that baseball?

[Travis]

That a. That 23 year old female that you've.

[Michael]

Never met, did she mean to hit me? That she throw that baseball at me?

[Travis]

Yes.

[Michael]

Why?

[Travis]

Wanted to.

[Michael]

Does she know me? Why does she throw a baseball at me?

[Travis]

She wanted to.

[Michael]

Okay, I'm gonna go ask her why she threw a baseball at me.

[Travis]

She's. This is her answer. I wanted to. I don't like the way you look.

[Michael]

Okay, well you can't do that.

[Travis]

I did.

[Michael]

Okay, well now there's. There's consequences involved.

[Travis]

What are they?

[Michael]

I don't know. I'm gonna get other people involved now. You can't just hit people with baseballs that you don't like.

[Travis]

Who are you going to get involved?

[Michael]

The police. You're going to jail for life.

[Travis]

So this was helpful?

[Lou]

Yes.

[Travis]

You have all this information now.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And now you get to be a true white and call the police.

[Michael]

No, but we talked about in the first time we talked about con. Context was that.

[Travis]

I truly want to know how. If that was a scenario, then what.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

What are your feelings? You have all the information you need.

[Michael]

Yeah. Then I'm able to. What. What I think you're leading down is what you did in the first place, which is like giving myself permission to feel a certain way. And I'm not looking for permission to feel a certain way. I'm just wondering how I feel about the situation because I need more information before I can decide how I feel about the situation.

[Travis]

Okay, so I have a question.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

If you can choose how to feel, why don't you just choose to quit being sad about your breakup?

[Michael]

That's not the same. That's not. I'm not saying I get to choose whether I'm angry or not. It's. It's what we got into before, and it's still my same answer is the variation of feeling. So that's a choice. I get hit with a. Yeah for me.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Oh, choose to be less sad.

[Michael]

That's not what I'm saying. If you let me finish. Can I finish or. Yeah, you keep interrupting me. No, finish. So I get hit with a baseball and somebody goes, hey, I didn't mean to do that. And this is what we've talked about before. Now my anger goes from like, somebody sent me the baseball to like, oh, they didn't mean it. And so my anger goes way down to be like, nah, that sucks.

[Lou]

Oh, well.

[Michael]

So.

[Travis]

Oh, well.

[Michael]

I went from, yeah, like, what am I gonna do? They didn't mean to hit me with a baseball. I get it. With a baseball sucks. Oh, well, okay.

[Travis]

What if it cracked your rib?

[Michael]

Yeah, that still sucks. But I'm not like, the anger is not skyrocketing as somebody being like, hey, man, I nailed you with that baseball, dude. What are you gonna do about it? Well, now I'm angry. Now it's a level 10 now we to do. But if somebody's like, hey, I didn't mean to.

[Lou]

Whatever. Okay.

[Michael]

That anger goes way down. So it's not deciding to be angry or not or deciding this or that. It's just like, it evens out my feelings. I'm not choosing the level of anger, but it, it, it is just doing that, knowing with the information that I'm gathering, it's automatically adjusting my feelings, how I feel about it. And that doesn't make any sense to you at all?

[Travis]

I mean, it makes sense, but it just sounds to me like other people get to. To dictate your feelings.

[Michael]

No, information gets to. Okay, yeah. And this is again, relational thinking versus non relational thinking.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

Because what you're doing is self experience. Right.

[Travis]

All I have.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yes, exactly.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I got hit with a baseball.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Doesn't matter what happened. Doesn't matter who did it, what. Whatever. This. I got hit with a baseball.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

End of story.

[Travis]

Not end of story.

[Michael]

Here's the thing. I'm not saying that I'm wrong and you're right or the other way around. Like, we're both right. And it's just like, fundamentally, that's who I Am. I am seeking out information to.

[Lou]

It.

[Michael]

Levels out the way I feel or it informs me of how I. How I feel, the information that I seek out. So for me, that's how I process.

[Travis]

Okay. Can we do it again?

[Michael]

Sure.

[Travis]

You just got hit with a baseball.

[Lou]

Yep. Huh?

[Michael]

Ouch. Now what? Hey, who the. What happened?

[Travis]

Oh, that was me.

[Michael]

You throw a baseball at me?

[Travis]

I mean.

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[Travis]

I swear, if to continue this ad, please upgrade to premium plus platinum.

[Michael]

What?

[Blue Apron Announcer]

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[Travis]

Please confirm your billing.

[Blue Apron Announcer]

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[Travis]

Wait, no subscription?

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[Travis]

I hit you with it, I guess.

[Michael]

Did you mean to hit me with a bit? Why do you think. Why'd you hit me with a baseball?

[Travis]

I mean, I, I wasn't like, trying to, like, I wasn't trying to hit you, but I wasn't trying not to hit you. I was kind of just throwing it around and like, I don't know, I saw you there. I thought maybe you'd catch it.

[Michael]

You thought I would catch him? I'm not looking.

[Travis]

I don't know.

[Michael]

Okay, Are you mad at me or something? Like, do you not like me? What's going on over here? Do you know me?

[Travis]

I'm.

[Michael]

I don't.

[Travis]

Yeah, I don't really like you that much.

[Michael]

Okay. Do we have a problem?

[Travis]

What kind of problem?

[Michael]

Oh, you're throwing baseballs at me. Do we have a problem?

[Travis]

Got it.

[Michael]

See, anger skyrocketing now that I know it was on purpose. You don't like me now? Now I have information. I can do something with it. Same as if the information was reversed and you were like, didn't mean to do that. Sorry, man. Now the information's changed and I'm like, oh, we're good. Don't do it again. You know, like, it's all good.

[Lou]

Huh. Okay.

[Michael]

What do you. What are you moving about over there?

[Travis]

Oh, I, I. It sounds to me like if the person doesn't like you, angry, if they like you, that's okay.

[Michael]

Sounds like it's about.

[Travis]

No, that's, it's, that's just my Take.

[Michael]

The purpose of the action. You said you meant to hit me with it and you didn't like me.

[Travis]

I didn't say I meant to hit you with it.

[Michael]

I said I didn't like you thrown around. You didn't like me?

[Lou]

Yep.

[Michael]

Yeah, but you also didn't. But you didn't say, hey, I didn't mean to hit you with it. Yeah, that's different. You cannot like me and didn't mean to hit me with it.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Then we don't have a problem. But if you mean to hit me with it and you don't like me, then we have more to talk about.

[Travis]

What is there more to talk about?

[Michael]

I'm going to be reactionary. You just hit me with a baseball and you're telling me you don't like.

[Travis]

Me, and that means you have to.

[Michael]

Do what I mean. Well, where I come from, it's put your face in your lap because we.

[Travis]

Have a problem, but it's someone my size.

[Michael]

Okay, I'll die trying because we have a problem. Now, would I actually do that? No, I'm. I'm violent and all that, but I am going to be like, what the. What's going on? I'm going to be. There are. The information is feeding how I'm processing things.

[Lou]

All right? Yeah.

[Travis]

So you're mad and you have a problem now.

[Lou]

What?

[Michael]

Well, then, yeah, I can. Now I have the information and you're.

[Travis]

Just mad about it now.

[Michael]

No, but I can process it in a way. See for you. Okay, I see your point. I know the point you're trying to make, that it doesn't matter. The context doesn't matter. You still got.

[Travis]

No, I'm trying to understand how somebody being like, yeah, hit with a baseball. I don't like you, and you go, oh, do we have a problem? They go, sure, yeah, now, so.

[Michael]

Well, then you have decisions to make. But you have decisions to make.

[Travis]

How does that help you? How is that beneficial to you?

[Michael]

Well, then I could also avoid this person in the future.

[Lou]

Huh. You won't. But, yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah, you can cut this person out of your life or avoid them or whatever and be like, oh, yeah, this person, I like me. They throw baseballs at me.

[Travis]

What if it's someone that didn't know you Like, I don't like your hat.

[Michael]

Okay, well, then you. Again, you have decisions to make.

[Lou]

Okay?

[Michael]

It's either confrontation or not. I don't know why you're trying to get me to fight this guy.

[Travis]

I'm trying. No, I'm trying to understand because that was. Your reaction, was, oh, do we have a problem?

[Michael]

Yeah, I'm wondering, like, do we have a problem?

[Lou]

What.

[Michael]

What is this? What is this. What do you want out of this? You hit me with a baseball. You're telling me.

[Travis]

That's what I'm trying to ask you. What do you want out of the conversation?

[Michael]

Information and resolution.

[Travis]

There is no resolution. Somebody intentionally hit you with a baseball. What is it? What is.

[Michael]

What is a resolution would be cutting them out of my life or not talking to them or fighting them. Like, those are all resolutions with the information that I'm given.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

All right. You. So. But again, like, that does nothing for you. What if you found it? You get hit with a baseball, you go, hey, did you mean to hit me with that? And they go, yeah, I did. You're a. What are you gonna do about it? That means nothing. You just go, okay, and you walk away. Because that information doesn't matter.

[Travis]

Well, I think my human reaction. I would be angry.

[Lou]

Right.

[Travis]

But also. Yeah, I hate you with baseball. I think you're a. I probably just keep the baseball. I'd be like, oh, well, thanks.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I'm talking about the. The. That information, then doesn't matter to you that you have that extra information, that this person did it on purpose and they don't like you? No.

[Travis]

Because knowing that, I'm just going to one. I think the human reaction to me, I'm going to take it personally.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And then I. I'm gonna feel like I have something to prove, and I'm gonna have to write that wrong in some way.

[Michael]

And that.

[Travis]

That's not who I want to be or how I want to react. So if someone hits me with a baseball and I turn and they go, hey, you. And I go, well, that's my ball now. And then if they want to come get it. Nah, that's mine now, dude. Right.

[Lou]

Yeah, But.

[Michael]

But why doesn't it work in the opposite way then? So you go, hey, do you mean to hit me? And they go, oh, no, sorry about that was an accident. That also doesn't matter to you. So the same way that it would escalate, it doesn't de. Escalate for you. That's what I'm getting at.

[Travis]

No, because I think my goal is to not escalate either way. Just have a thing of being like, I got hit with a ball.

[Michael]

Ouch.

[Travis]

Then they go, hey, that was an accident. I go, that hurt. They go, hey, you're a hurt. It's the same.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

The reality is, I got hit with a baseball. If they meant to do it, that's a shittier situation.

[Michael]

Right.

[Travis]

But all of that is emotional.

[Lou]

Yeah. So.

[Travis]

I don't know why I would need to go investigate that.

[Michael]

To.

[Travis]

How should I feel about this emotionally? Oh, my back hurts because I got hit with a baseball.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Like, I. I don't know. That's not an emotional thing. If someone called me, like, yeah, I'll feel something. I might be angry. I might be whatever. But, yeah, I don't see the benefit in seeking that out. I don't see the benefit in making it emotional.

[Michael]

I think the disc.

[Travis]

This is also a dumbass scenario we're talking about.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Travis]

So stupid.

[Michael]

Also is. I think it's important to note that, like, I am also. I think we're missing the word of fundamentally. This is who I am. I'm an emotional thinker.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And so I'm not. I don't know. You. You said the phrase there. You said you're. You don't know why I would make it emotional.

[Travis]

I don't see the benefit in making.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Making it emotional.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I'm not making it emotional. It is for me. It's all emotional for me. I'm an emotional thinker. That's how I process a lot of things.

[Travis]

Do you have interest in learning to be less of an emotional thinker?

[Michael]

I. I think that I can learn how to be less reactionary, and that's what I'm working towards. But I think that I will always be an emotional thinker.

[Travis]

So what I asked was, do you have interest in being a less emotional thinker?

[Michael]

No.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

Because in the same ways that my emotions, the negative impacts that they have on me, the. The emotional thinking, they have positive things too.

[Travis]

Like what?

[Michael]

I'm usually pretty in tune with other people's emotions and attitudes and things like that. And trauma response.

[Lou]

Yep.

[Michael]

Empathy and things like that. Sure. But, like.

[Lou]

Ah.

[Michael]

I know you think I'm.

[Travis]

Well, careful, careful, careful. Not exaggerate.

[Michael]

Let's not say. What were you gonna. What was the psy for?

[Travis]

The psy was a conversation that we have had before, and I decided.

[Michael]

It'S.

[Travis]

Not beneficial to have that conversation again.

[Lou]

Yep. Yeah.

[Travis]

What was. What do I think what a piece of you are.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That I'm a piece of. And then I don't know that I don't have any empathy for others.

[Lou]

Okay. Got it. Yeah. All right.

[Travis]

Onward.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So what now? You like context? So I'm gonna ask. Would you like me to tell you my thoughts on what you just said?

[Michael]

Sure.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Michael]

Always.

[Travis]

That is not my opinion.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Travis]

I don't think you are as empathetic as you think you are. I think you Confuse empathy with sympathy. And I think when you talk about being in tune with other people's emotions, that is a trauma response in codependence. And people pleasing, as you've said, being a bloodhound to your mother's emotions and figuring that out.

[Michael]

Absolutely.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I think that is definitely probably a high percentage of that, but that's all. I look at that. I also see that as a strength sometimes.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

And I don't know if I just think that because it's helped me navigate thus far and I don't know any other what. Like, it'd be like using ways your whole life, and then somebody shows you Google Maps and you're like. Like, I don't know. Like, I'm a. I'm a ways guy.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I've just been using Waze, dude.

[Travis]

And they're like, you know Waze is owned by Google Maps, right?

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

They're like, it's the same thing, only it's way better.

[Travis]

So let me ask you a question.

[Michael]

Sure.

[Travis]

Do you find that I'm in tune with other people's emotions?

[Michael]

Sometimes.

[Lou]

Okay. Yes.

[Michael]

I. It's interesting. I think that you are in tune with other people's emotions, but I think that you choose when to interact with them with those emotions.

[Travis]

Other people's emotions. Absolutely.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yep. Yeah.

[Michael]

So it's hard for me to gauge because I know that you're not always. Not to use the same word again, but like, engaging in. In those moments. So oftentimes, not often, but sometimes I won't find out that you're tuned in until later and we're discussing something, and I'll be like, oh, okay. He did pick up on that. Not only with me, but with others, you know, other situation. We'll be in the car later after something, you're like, hey. And I'm like, okay. He did read that.

[Lou]

Yeah. Okay.

[Michael]

Why?

[Travis]

I take that as a great compliment. Thank you.

[Lou]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been.

[Travis]

Especially by my girl. Like, I'm even with people in her life.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

We've left things. And I'd be like, what's going on with. And she's like, what do you mean? I go, she seemed off. No. And then a week later, that person was like, I've been just really going through it lately. And like.

[Lou]

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

[Travis]

I'm very in tune with other people's emotions. But you're. You're very accurate. I choose when to engage with it.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

When to engage.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So this relational thinking, this is the spider web that it gets me down. Often times will spiral me. And I have been working on stopping that spiral or at least trying to pause and ask myself questions in the moment. So, like, here's the hypothetical I thought about earlier today when I was thinking about. Because you and I talked a little bit about this yesterday or this morning or something like that. I think it was yesterday after therapy.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So, like, a hypothetical situation is like, I leave my shoes in the hallway and you come to me the next day and go, hey, man, I appreciate if the hallway's clear, can you like, keep your shoes in your room? And I go, oh, yeah, sorry, man, no big dealing. Hey, don't worry about it. I just. I like the hallway to be clear. Okay. Now you walk away from that as a non relational thinker going, that was about shoes in the hallway. It's a singular standalone thing of like, I don't like shoes in the hallway. Your shoes were there. Take care of it. I walk away with the spider web of, I left shoes in the hallway. I up. He's mad at me, he's upset with me, he thinks I'm a messy person.

[Lou]

He.

[Michael]

He's not gonna want to continue to live with me because my is in the hallway. And now he had to, like, come talk to me about it. And now, like, and if he doesn't want to live with me, that means I'm a bad person because I'm a bad roommate. And now, like, if something comes up in the future, he's gonna. He's gonna be like, I'm not staying with that guy. Or like, we're not gonna re sign the lease or we're not gonna do whatever he's gonna tell his girlfriend, whoever else will listen. And then three years later, I'm gonna house party. I'm gonna say something off the cuff like. Like, yeah, I'm a pretty clean dude. And they're gonna be like, well, that's not what Lou said about you. And now I'm like, the shoes. And so it spirals to that point where I go, oh, I'm a piece of messy person that he doesn't want to engage with. And you're coming away from it being like, I don't like shoes in the hallway.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You sure you're not just neurotic as.

[Michael]

That is the spiderweb effect. And that's also like anxiety and like all the other things mixed in there. So to stop that spiral, I have to be like, yo, hey, that's not what he's saying. And so what I have been doing is in my head stopping that spiral and being like, yo, settle down. That's not what's going on. But also, I don't know if you picked up on it, but I have been asking, like, okay, what are you saying? Or what is the intention behind what you're saying?

[Travis]

I have not noticed you asking that.

[Lou]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael]

I've been doing that last couple months.

[Travis]

To me.

[Michael]

To you?

[Lou]

Yes.

[Michael]

I'd be like, I just did it earlier in this episode. I was like, hey, hold on. I go, what? What is the intention behind that?

[Lou]

You did.

[Travis]

When I said, of course you did.

[Michael]

Of course you.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That's what you're talking about.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So that's to stop the spiral. Because again, something as little as that, it triggers that defense of like.

[Travis]

So why. Why do I have to stop the spiral? Why do I have to give you information to stop the spiral? Are you able to stop it on your own?

[Michael]

Yeah, but it helps. Because why? Context? Because I'm looking for more information. Because the only information that I have at the moment is he talked to me on my shoes in the hallway.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That's the only information I have. So I. I would like more information. So that's when I would go, hey, is this. Is this just about the shoes? Or, like, I would say whatever the. You know what I mean? Like, I'd be like, hey, are we good? And you'd be like, yeah. And I'd be like, okay, earlier about the shoes. And you'd be like, oh, yeah.

[Travis]

I just like, oh, stop talking.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

Okay, cool. Because. Jesus. I'm looking for more information.

[Travis]

How have you not killed yourself? Hey, that is exhausting, dude.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

You don't think you could get to a point of, like, just getting so sick of it? You're like, I'm not living like this anymore.

[Michael]

You don't think I'm sick?

[Travis]

I don't. Because you're still operating like that, buddy.

[Michael]

It's.

[Travis]

I don't understand it.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You think I'm choosing to operate like this? I'm not choosing to operate like.

[Travis]

I'm not. I don't think you're choosing to operate like that.

[Lou]

I'm.

[Travis]

I think you're choosing to require needing more information because that's the most comfortable and easiest route to feeling better. I don't think you're choosing to operate that way. Yeah, but I think you are choosing the more information.

[Lou]

Yes.

[Travis]

You're choosing the most comfortable way to get through the feeling.

[Michael]

For me, I feel like I'm choosing clarity.

[Travis]

Okay. I just. We get in it happens on the show all the time, where you'll ask me something, I'll say it, it's not what you want to hear, so you'll ask it a different way and I'll go, what. What are you trying to get me to say right now? Because I don't. I. From my experience of it, it's not information. It's. You need a specific thing told to you so you can be like, oh, okay.

[Michael]

No, in those moments I'm really trying to find the disconnect. I'm like, how. How am I. How am I receiving or hearing or saying, you know, I mean, like, how are we receiving two different things? And so this was actually really helpful with like the great divide of like relational thinking and non relational thinking. And like, I was like, oh, that makes complete sense on a lot of fronts in our relationship.

[Travis]

So what is. There is like a type of person. Attachment style disorder, whatever. That type of person that is more prone to.

[Michael]

I don't know, it does, it does go into more logical thinking and more like emotional thinking.

[Travis]

Yeah, that's what I'm asking is.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Like is codependence typically leading someone with more emotional thinking? That's what I was curious about.

[Michael]

I don't know. Yeah, you told me to remind you about emotional thinking and logical thinking.

[Travis]

Talked about that in therapy a little bit.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah. She.

[Travis]

Because ideally, you don't want to be far on the spectrum of either side.

[Lou]

Right.

[Travis]

So she sent me a, like a Venn diagram. One circle is logical thinking, one circle is emotional thinking. And then the middle where they overlap is, was labeled wise mind. So the way you can hybrid them together.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And trying to get my wise mind era.

[Lou]

So.

[Travis]

Yeah, I'm trying to get a little bit more emotional.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

Just a hair though.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I'm not trying to come on over to my side.

[Travis]

I'm not trying to be over there. Who hit me with this ball?

[Michael]

Why?

[Travis]

Why would you do that? They're like, what the fuck happened to that guy? It's a ball, you're fine. But why. I don't wanna. Are you mad happy with self? Am I happy with self just now.

[Michael]

With your little act out?

[Travis]

Yeah, I feel okay. Did that hurt you?

[Michael]

It's just interesting.

[Travis]

Why is that interesting? It was a bit. Why was it?

[Michael]

I know.

[Lou]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Oh, okay.

[Michael]

I know you're around.

[Travis]

Why is it interesting?

[Michael]

Because it speaks volumes of. Well, again, let me, let me see your intention here.

[Lou]

Okay.

[Michael]

But for me, the way I'm receiving is it speaks volumes of how you see my thinking or reactions. It's.

[Travis]

Oh, no. That was just a dramatized joke.

[Michael]

Yes, I know. I was around.

[Lou]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

You want to read into it a little bit, get a little context? Is that what's happening?

[Lou]

Nope.

[Travis]

Don't lie to me.

[Michael]

I don't need any more information.

[Travis]

What information did you get?

[Michael]

You think I'm a little crybaby?

[Lou]

All right.

[Travis]

And we know that. Jesus.

[Michael]

That's a bear.

[Lou]

It's not.

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[Lou]

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[Travis]

Good morning.

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[Travis]

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[Travis]

It's all right.

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[Travis]

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[Travis]

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