Secondhand Therapy | Episode #099

Relational vs. Non-Relational Thinking
Release Date: September 15, 2025
Hosts: Louie Paoletti, Michael Malone, and Travis

Episode Overview

In this characteristically raw and funny episode of Secondhand Therapy, the hosts dive deep into the cognitive divide between relational and non-relational thinking. Using their recent therapy sessions and real-life emotional pangs—like heartbreak, grief, and family dynamics—as jumping-off points, Louie, Michael, and Travis unpack how they process experiences differently and what it means for growth, communication, and lived relationships. The hosts poke fun at themselves and each other, probe therapy insights, and draw out distinctions between emotional and logical minds—all while weaving in their trademark honest banter.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Shopping Metaphor for Relationships

(07:12) Travis relays his therapist's comparison of dating to shopping:

• Travis’s therapist says dating should be like shopping for a shirt—you know your preferences, but sometimes, no matter how much you love something, it doesn’t fit.
  • “But stop trying to suck in your gut and hunch and do all these things to make something fit that just doesn't fit... Sometimes a great shirt just doesn't fit.” — Travis (07:17)
• The hosts riff on how people force themselves into ill-fitting relationships, sharing laughter and commiseration over heartbreak.
  • “Just crying in the dressing room.” — Michael (08:01)

2. Heartbreak, Grief, and the Pain of 'What Ifs'

(08:30 – 17:30)

• Michael gets candid about his fresh heartbreak grief, describing days measured by whether or not he broke down.
• Grief’s addictive power: Michael recounts a talk he heard on grief and addiction, noting the neurological overlap.
  • “Turns out... your brain treats it like an addiction. So it's like those same kind of things are getting activated.” — Michael (12:02)
• The endlessly looping ‘What If’—regret vs. rumination:
  • “You love a what if... you could daydream all day on a what if.” — Travis (14:39)
  • Travis emphasizes that even if someone were still alive or still with you, your influence would likely be limited: “Even if you do it differently, it doesn't mean it's going to be received well...” (15:17)

3. Family Dynamics: Guilt & Connection

(18:06 – 26:00)

• Travis discusses the guilt he feels enjoying his partner’s family more than his own.
  • “There's more connection. More in common. And it's a bummer.” — Travis (22:41)
• He highlights curiosity, openness, and directness that are missing from his own family dynamic.
• The group explores whether to accept the limits of familial relationships or risk seeking deeper connection by initiating conversations—a dilemma recurring in Travis's and Michael's therapies.
  • “It's acceptance versus desiring change.” — Travis (26:41)

4. Relational vs. Non-Relational Thinking: The Core Topic

(35:21 – 53:00)

Defining the Divide

• Prompted by Michael’s therapy, the group probes how some people ground their emotions in context ('relational thinking') vs. those who don’t (‘non-relational thinking’).
  • “He said, it sounds like you're a relational thinker. And he's a non-relational thinker.” — Michael (37:37)
  • Travis jokes: “Relational thinking is typically tied to stupid people and non-relational thinking is for higher intelligent beings. Did I get that right?” (38:04)
• Baseball Metaphor: To illustrate, Travis suggests a hypothetical where Michael is hit with a baseball. Michael spirals through all the context: Who threw it? Was it intentional? What’s the relationship? Travis counters by focusing on the event alone.
  • “You're mad and you have a problem now.” — Lou, summarizing Michael’s chain of logic (46:58)

Emotional vs. Logical Processing

• Michael unpacks how emotional (relational) thinkers use context for calibration:
  • “I need more information before I can decide how I feel about the situation.” — Michael (40:20)
  • Travis remains uninterested in context: “The reality is, I got hit with a baseball... I don't see the benefit in making it emotional.” (51:05)
• Wise Mind Venn Diagram: Travis recounts a therapy tool blending 'logical' and 'emotional' into 'wise mind'.
  • “And then the middle where they overlap is, was labeled wise mind. So the way you can hybrid them together.” — Travis (64:15)

Downsides to Each Style

• Michael’s relational style triggers anxiety spirals by over-interpreting simple feedback.
  • “That is the spiderweb effect. And that's also like anxiety and like all the other things mixed in there.” — Michael (59:24)
  • Travis, deadpan: “How have you not killed yourself? ...That is exhausting, dude.” (61:16)
• Debate over the merits and pitfalls of seeking more information versus accepting limited data, looping back to codependence, people-pleasing, and the difference between empathy and sympathy.

5. Empathy, Trauma, and Codependence

(54:00 – 57:00)

• Michael observes that his attunement to others is rooted in trauma—his “bloodhound” empathy from childhood is both a survival mechanism and, he argues, sometimes a strength.
  • “I think you Confuse empathy with sympathy... and people pleasing, as you've said, being a bloodhound to your mother's emotions...” — Travis (54:07)
  • Michael acknowledges the link and discusses the (dubious) adaptive upside.

6. Notable Quotes & Exchanges

On seeking information vs. acceptance:

• “For me, I feel like I'm choosing clarity.” — Michael (62:17)
• “You're choosing the most comfortable way to get through the feeling.” — Travis (62:13)

On spiraling:

• “I've been working on stopping that spiral or at least trying to pause and ask myself questions in the moment...” — Michael (59:57)

Memorable Moments

• The 'fisting tattoo' riff during heartbreak banter (09:49):

  • “He has a tattoo on his back that says, fist me with both hands. It's in hieroglyphics.” — Travis

• Light/dark tonal shifts noted by the hosts themselves (34:03):

  • Michael: “The bipolarness of that episode... so happy and fun and fast and like. And then it just turns and it is slow motion.”

• Travis’s directness on processing:

  • “I take that as a great compliment. Thank you.” — Travis, on being in tune but selecting his engagement (56:19)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 07:12 — Travis shares the 'shopping for relationships' metaphor
• 12:02 — Michael relays neuroscience of grief and addiction
• 14:39 — Travis calls out the seductive nature of 'What Ifs'
• 19:24–22:41 — Travis and hosts discuss familial guilt and connection
• 35:21–46:58 — Relational vs. non-relational thinking debate, baseball metaphor
• 54:07–54:53 — Empathy, trauma, people-pleasing reflections
• 64:10 — Wise Mind Venn diagram described

Podcast Tone & Language

The hosts maintain their signature frank, often irreverent tone, blending humor and candor:

• Playful, explicit jokes, even regarding emotional pain (“fist me with both hands” tattoo)
• Occasional deadpan or mocking exchanges, always self-aware (“You’re mad and you have a problem now…”)
• Honesty in reflecting confusion, contradiction, and vulnerability about their mental health journeys.

Final Thoughts

This episode reveals the powerful ways that our cognitive habits—whether relational or non-relational—shape our reactions, relationships, and even suffering. By dissecting their own biases with humor and empathy, the hosts illustrate how therapy language, childhood wiring, and day-to-day conversations intersect in the struggle to heal and connect.

For more real talk on mental health (and plenty of laughs), check out the ad-free and bonus episodes on Patreon.