The Art of Imperfection | #103

Summary

Podcast Summary: Secondhand Therapy

Episode: #103 – The Art of Imperfection
Date: October 13, 2025
Hosts: Louie Paoletti & Michael Malone
Studio: PonyBear Studios

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Overview

In this episode of Secondhand Therapy, Louie and Michael dive into the theme of imperfection, exploring Japanese philosophies like wabi-sabi and ichigo ichie, and relating them to their personal struggles with anxiety, accountability, vulnerability, and emotional growth. With trademark banter, humor, and raw honesty, they dissect their own messy processes of healing, reflecting on how being present, embracing imperfection, and taking accountability shapes their relationships and self-image.

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. The Meaning of Wabi-Sabi: Embracing the Art of Imperfection

[04:37 - 07:08]

• Louie introduces the concept of wabi-sabi, a Japanese philosophy centered on the beauty of imperfection.
  • Louie: "Wabi sabi is the art of imperfection. You drop the pot, it breaks, you piece it back together... you fill with gold... The pot is now stronger." [05:00]
• Michael opens up about his struggle to accept imperfection, tying it to his need to be "presentable."
  • Michael: "I struggle with being not perfect or presentable... Presentable just means, like... my mother in the house. Even though the house wasn't perfect... it would be tidy, clean, but it's not going to be, like, perfect." [06:02]
• Louie pushes back, highlighting the difference between appearance and deeper imperfection.

2. The Pressure to Be Perfect & Appearing "Presentable"

[07:08 - 09:06]

• Michael connects presentability not just to appearance, but also to actions (like his need to be a "good" driver when friends are in the car).
  • Michael: "I need to be presentable while I'm driving... I'm not gonna be a perfect driver, but at least presentable." [07:27]
• Louie highlights Michael's habit of over-explaining in the car as part of that need.

3. Stories from the Road: Vulnerability & Growth

[10:44 - 14:42]

• The hosts reminisce about a tense car ride from Tucson to Phoenix, where Michael lost his temper, exposing old patterns.
  • Louie: "You come unglued and then you floor the Prius like you're going to catch his Mustang..." [11:12]
  • They reflect on how "healed" they've become since, with Michael noting lingering attachment to past behaviors:
    • Michael: "It's moments like these where I thought I'm more healed... but there's still a little part... that goes, yeah, tell him, babe." [13:15]
  • Louie labels the past response as "toxic" but recognizes ongoing progress.

4. Being Seen in the Middle of Your Mess

[15:53 - 17:39]

• Michael talks about shame around letting people see him "in pieces"—the metaphor of presenting a half-fixed vase.
  • "It's being seen while you're still in pieces... You got a vase, you drop it. It's half put together and someone's by your house..." [15:53]
• Louie pushes back: "I'm okay with people seeing my broken vase. I'm putting it back together." [17:31]

5. Presence & the Principle of Ichigo Ichie

[21:45 - 26:50]

• Louie introduces ichigo ichie, the principle of treating every moment as if it's the last time you’ll experience it.
  • "Every time you do something is the last time you do it... the last time you played in the sandbox, the last time you saw your best friend from second grade, you didn't know it was the last time." [22:14]
• Michael admits he struggles with being present, recognizing that he often leaps ahead rather than savoring the now.
  • Michael: "I have a hard time savoring things... I'm so excitable, I'm already on to the next thing." [23:59]
• He recounts missing the emotional significance of leaving a place until his partner pointed it out.

6. ADHD, Dopamine, and Chasing the “Next Thing”

[26:19 - 36:14]

• Michael explores how ADHD and dopamine-seeking make him chase new projects, tying his self-worth to “starting” rather than finishing.
  • "I think it's a dopamine thing... because your value is in your productivity. You get excited, a new project... 'this is it'... then you chase the next." [29:20, 35:37]
• Louie suggests he’s "addicted to the struggle" and questions whether Michael is truly seeking improvement or comfort in chaos.
  • Louie: "I think you’re addicted to the struggle... it’s so comfortable in where you’ve been for so long." [34:51]

7. Savoring Joy and Sitting with Vulnerability

[36:26 - 41:42]

• Louie describes trying to recognize small moments of joy, like quiet time with his girlfriend or dogs.
  • "I'm in these little moments of joy, trying to notice them and just be in it... This moment is gonna be over, and I really enjoy it." [36:38]
• Michael tells a story about misreading an intimate moment, thinking Louie was gazing lovingly at his partner when he was actually zoning out.
  • Hilarity and embarrassment ensues over showing vulnerability and being “caught” in affection.
• Louie admits vulnerability, especially being seen as “a little lover boy” or crying, is deeply uncomfortable:
  • "It feels embarrassing, being a little lover boy... but I am a lover boy." [41:20]

8. The Fear of Vulnerability and Its Cost

[41:42 - 44:11]

• Michael ties Louie’s discomfort with being seen (in love or in tears) to a larger hesitation around vulnerability, suggesting it stems from fear it could be used against him later.
  • Louie: "It's weakness. And I feel it'll be used against me later." [44:00]
• Louie reflects on the challenge of communicating true feelings and the shame surrounding vulnerability.

9. Resentment as a Choice

[45:30 - 51:27]

• Louie shares a powerful insight from therapy: resentment is a choice.
  • Louie: "My therapist said resentment is a choice. We're often relying on the story that we're telling ourselves and not the facts." [47:22]
• He gives the example of wanting to avoid vulnerable conversations by turning to resentment instead.
• Michael weighs in, admitting it’s “easier to just tell yourself a story... and resent.” [50:43]

10. Accountability vs. Blame

[58:18 - 69:10]

• The pair engage in a deep (and funny) discussion on responsibility—using the example of a technical failure with the podcast’s video files.
  • Louie emphasizes accountability is not “blame”; it’s simply “taking responsibility.”
  • Louie: "Accountability and blame aren't the same for me. Just taking responsibility." [65:18]
  • Louie gives a concrete example of troubleshooting an error and owning the outcome, regardless of actual “fault.”
  • Michael admits he conflates accountability and blame, and struggles to own errors that seem outside his control.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Louie on Wabi Sabi:
  "Wabi sabi is the art of imperfection... the pot is now stronger when it has been put back together and reinforced like that." [05:00]

• Michael on Savoring the Present:
  "I have a hard time savoring things and taking things in... I'm already on to the next thing." [23:59]

• Louie on Vulnerability:
  "Vulnerability is very hard for me... there's a lot of shame around it. Don't know why, still trying to crack it." [45:00]

• On Resentment:
  Louie: "My therapist said resentment is a choice." [45:30]
  Michael: "Because you're putting yourself in a situation to be rejected or mocked... it's easier to just tell yourself a story... and resent." [50:40]

• On Accountability:
  Louie: "Accountability and blame aren't the same for me. Just taking responsibility." [65:18]
  Michael: "Accountability is linked to blame... I'm trying my best to fix it, and that's what I can control." [65:48]

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Key Timestamps

• 04:37 – Introduction to Wabi Sabi, imperfection metaphor
• 07:27 – Michael explains his fixation on being “presentable”
• 11:00–13:20 – Recounting the infamous road rage story and its relationship to healing
• 15:53–17:39 – Discussing the shame of being seen “in pieces”
• 21:45–23:59 – Principle of Ichigo Ichie, savoring each moment
• 29:17–36:14 – ADHD, dopamine cycles, and starting vs. finishing projects
• 36:26–41:20 – Embracing (or avoiding) joy and vulnerability
• 45:30–47:22 – "Resentment is a choice": therapy insight
• 58:18–65:18 – Deep dive on accountability vs. blame, practical examples

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Tone & Dynamic

• Conversational and honest, filled with quippy humor and self-deprecation.
• Louie adopts a more pragmatic and (sometimes blunt) approach to self-improvement, while Michael exemplifies vulnerability, over-explanation, and the emotional tangle of self-worth.
• The episode seamlessly infuses comic relief into tough moments, echoing the show's ethos—mental health growth is messy, but best faced with candor and camaraderie.

---

Transcript

[A]

And I also. I think maybe you think accountability means it's your fault.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I. That's what I'm tying it to is.

[A]

Like accountability and blame aren't the same for me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Just taking responsibility. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[B]

Welcome back.

[A]

Listen up.

[B]

No, I'm doing the intro. Be nice.

[A]

I'm doing the intro.

[B]

What?

[A]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy. Thank you.

[B]

Do the intro then.

[A]

Need to remind you that we're not therapists, we're not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy, and this is not professional advice in any way.

[B]

Nailed it.

[A]

Michael's here. Thank God.

[B]

Michael's here. Dude. What the.

[A]

Michael's here.

[B]

Michael's here.

[A]

What the going on, man? What are we supposed to be talking about?

[B]

Oh, they're gonna hear some ads.

[A]

You're gonna hear some ads, guys.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now here's what I'm gonna say. If you listen to the ads. One, we really do use all of these products. I don't use BetterHelp. I got mine through. But you do use BetterHelp.

[B]

I do use Better.

[A]

I do take Maca every day. And I do have a light phone.

[B]

I just ordered some. And I also have a light phone, but it's not hooked up. But I have one.

[A]

Yeah, he does have one. I'm trying to get him to use it, but you guys know he's in the DMs. He can't have a light phone. We're trying. We're working on it. Yeah, I love my light phone. Anyway, you're going to hear some ads. If you want to try the products, we stand by all of them. They're great. All the discount codes are below. If you don't want to hear ads, you can go to patreon. Patreon.com secondhand therapy pod.

[B]

Is it backslash or slash?

[A]

Who gives a type a slash? Dude, you'll get there.

[B]

I don't.

[A]

I think it's slash.

[B]

Okay, is.

[A]

It's a backslash. Even a thing?

[B]

I don't know. I'm old. I thought everything was backslash.

[A]

You're very old. You go to Patreon, you get ad free Episodes. You can get our other podcast. And I'm gonna tell you, if you sign up for Patreon, we're giving out goodies.

[B]

Oh, we got a little treats. We got goodies.

[A]

You sign up for the ad free Episodes, we're gonna send you a sticker. That is dope as a lot of time to design this sticker. I have been told by two people that I live with I spent too much time designing the sticker. Now I'm very proud of the sticker. It's very cool. Please sign up for Patreon. I'll send you a sticker. I will address the envelope myself. If you sign up for the second tier, that's where you get the other show. Our non therapy podcast, where we just dick around for an hour. It's a lot of fun. It's better than this show.

[B]

You're missing out.

[A]

You get after the pod ASMRs, you get all the bonus stuff in the second tier. And if you sign up for that, you get the sticker aforementioned. You also get a little print. And we're gonna sign the print.

[B]

We're gonna sign it and then maybe.

[A]

Write a note in the back.

[B]

A little cute little note in the back, maybe. We don't know.

[A]

I write it on the back on every single one. I do.

[B]

Do you really?

[A]

Yeah. I've also been told I spent too much time designing the print. Now I don't give a. Because it's cool. So go to Patreon, get a sticker to print. We have a third tier if you want live streams. We do live streams every month. If you want to hang out and talk with us, just don't be annoying. It's hard to do. Yeah, it's hard to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not being annoying. Can't do it. You can see how annoying we are when we're sitting at our desks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. And if you sign up for that tier, you get a T shirt. And all these products we are not selling or giving away anywhere else. Only if you sign up on Patreon and, you know, maybe the envelope with the sticker in the print, it might come with like a little secondhand therapy sticker that seals it up like. Like a wedding invitation.

[B]

You're invited to join us on Patreon, maybe.

[A]

Did I put too much time and thought into these things?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But when you sign up for Patreon, I want you to understand that we value you. So go do it and then I'll send you the thing and you can throw it away and then we'll go. We'll be good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We also have merch available secondhand therapypod.com. it's another good way to support the podcast. If you want to contact us, there's a bunch of stuff below, along with all the discount codes from the ads and the products that we use and can stand by below. Thank you for being here.

[B]

That's Enough. All right.

[A]

Wabi sabi.

[B]

Oh, my God. Enjoy the episode.

[A]

Yeah. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[B]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[A]

And we know that you know about wabi sabi.

[B]

I don't know about wabi sabi.

[A]

Why don't you know about wabi sabi?

[B]

It sounds too spicy for me. It's a sauce, right?

[A]

I'm upset.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I'm gonna tell you about wabi sabi.

[B]

I would love to hear about wabi sabi sabi is.

[A]

It's a Japanese philosophy or principle. I'm not an expert. I just learned about it in therapy this week. Wabi sabi is the art of imperfection. You ready? For example, I'm sure you've seen this Japanese pottery. You drop the pot, it breaks, you piece it back together, you fill with gold or red or green or whatever, and that's the pot. Now you see all the cracks with the colors, and the pot is now stronger when it has been put back together and reinforced like that. The art of imperfection.

[B]

Wow. So how does that apply to you?

[A]

Hey, man, be imperfect. Just be okay being imperfect. Because as you piece it back together, it's going to be better than it was, and it's going to be stronger than it was, and it's going to be more useful than it was. And that's wabi sabi. How do you feel about that?

[B]

It's. I like it because I. Well, I, you know, I struggle with being not perfect or presentable. And so wabi sabi is.

[A]

Hold on. What's the. For you, what's the difference between perfect and presentable? Because presentable sounds like your appearance.

[B]

No, presentable just means, like. Like what I think of when I'm thinking of presentable is like, my mother in the house. So even though the house wasn't perfect, right? Like, it wasn't deep cleaned and she didn't, like, steam the carpets or whatever, but if you were to stop by randomly at the house, it would be presentable, it'd be tidy, it would be clean, but it's not going to be, like, perfect. So presentable.

[A]

That sounds like appearance.

[B]

It is.

[A]

Because I said it sounds like appearance, and you said, no, no, no. And then it went on to describe appearance, and I've become angry. We're 18 seconds in to this bitch.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'm trying to think of also, like, I think it goes into action, too. I need to be presentable while I'm driving. If you're riding in the car with me and I'm not, you know, like, I'm not gonna be per. I'm not gonna be a perfect driver.

[A]

But that is true.

[B]

I've driven with you a lot, quote, unquote, presentable. So you're not like, jesus Christ, this guy.

[A]

Yeah, dude, when. Yeah, whenever you're driving, you always explain everything that's happening.

[B]

Yeah. I have to narrate, just. Just so you know, like, hey, man. Yeah, I got it.

[A]

I thought that guy was pulling out my little commentary. Okay. Yeah, I thought that guy.

[B]

And then this.

[A]

I thought he was gonna come over, and then I saw this. Hey, bro, shut up already.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I need to be presentable.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

You can't leave my car and be like, don't ride with Malone.

[A]

I think that every time I get out of your car.

[B]

That's. That's not true.

[A]

I. I think sometimes I'm like, I should get a second car because with my truck. My truck isn't practical for us to take. So you usually drive. I have thought about, like, I should get a little car so I could drive more.

[B]

Are you being serious right now?

[A]

Does it matter? Yes. Why does that matter?

[B]

Because I want you to feel safe and comfortable when you're riding in my car.

[A]

Well, you can't control how I feel, so. Whoops. Anyway, going car shopping this weekend, it might have to do with you, it might not. We'll never know.

[B]

Now, when you say thing now, this is going to get. I don't want to spin out here. This isn't going to be a well.

[A]

You'Re not driving conversation. Got him. Got him.

[B]

But when you say things like. When I say something like I want to make you feel comfortable or safe. Yeah. What I'm saying is I'm trying to do my best to make you feel that way. And you're saying, well, you can't do that at all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm saying a little bit, because if I'm just fucking crazy and reckless and all that shit, then, like, I'm not making you feel safe or comfortable. And so what I'm saying is, like, there are ways that you can try to be good to and for people.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I just don't understand how you met. Well, I don't want to say how. I don't understand why that's measured in the other person.

[B]

Because I feel like, who's ever driving? Who's ever driving, it's their responsibility to, like, be a good host. That's what you're doing. You're hosting. Okay. Do you disagree with that?

[A]

Yeah, I. I think you're responsible for everybody's safety in the car, but you're not as responsible for them feeling safe in the car because you could drive perfectly, have no brake checks, no horns, no yelling, and somebody could still get out of the car and not like, what happened.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So. And then you're. What I'm hearing is then you're like, I gotta drive better. No, you don't.

[B]

Yeah. For me, I'm saying by trying, I mean you. You're not break checking and yelling and doing whatever. Like that's trying to make you feel comfortable and safe.

[A]

When did you. When did that become a priority for you? Because, hey, I have one.

[B]

Shut the up. I have.

[A]

I'm being 100. I have a vivid memory.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

Of being in the car with you and you were a maniac.

[B]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[A]

You're not gonna remember it. We were driving from Tucson to Phoenix. It was you, huh? You were driving.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Your ex fiance was in the front seat and I was in the back seat.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's when you had your Prius.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Okay. And so we're on I10 going from Tucson to Phoenix. Somebody in a Mustang or some like, dickhead muscle car passes us on the shoulder.

[B]

I'm all. I'm angry. I'm re angry. Yeah.

[A]

So he screams by us on the shoulder and then gets in front of us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you come unglued and then you floor the Prius like you're going to catch his Mustang.

[B]

You're not.

[A]

And like, you're like gripping on the steering wheel just like seething. And I go, I go, hey, bro, your girl's in the car. Let's not do this right now, huh? And then your ex fiance goes, I don't need you to protect me, Lou. And I was like, tight. So that was the situation.

[B]

I don't remember that.

[A]

Does that sound plausible?

[B]

But it does.

[A]

Yeah. And I remember that very vivid. I was like, one, you're not gonna catch this guy in a Prius. Two, what happens when you do? You kill everybody. You're gonna run them off the road. Like, what do we do? What's the end game here?

[B]

Justice. Yeah. You can't do that. You can't pass people on the shoulder, man.

[A]

You're not supposed to. It's a dick move.

[B]

Yeah, bro.

[A]

Dude, your girl. I don't need you to protect me. Hey, shut the fuck up. I'm trying to protect all three of us right now. And I thought if I put. Hey, your girls here. Let's not act like a fucking asshole. I thought that'd be the one that got through.

[B]

Okay, listen, I love that. I love her response for all of us.

[A]

I hate it. I hate it.

[B]

Yeah, I thought. You know what? It's times like these where I thought I. I'm more healed.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But retelling that and you saying her response, in my head, I was like, that's my girl. And listen, that's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Toxic. And I'm.

[A]

Hey, hey, hey, hold on. It always was right, and we know that.

[B]

I'm just saying it's a moment of reflection that I'm like, oh, I thought I was further along, but there's still a little part of me in the inside that goes, yeah, tell him, babe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don'T I.

[A]

Hey, yeah. Old Bonnie and Clyde and the Prius.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I wish I would have been great if you caught him. And they just kicked the out of both of you. And I just sat in the back seat and watch you guys get in and be like, ready, ready to go. I was going to help, but no one needed my protection, so I just sat in the car in the Prius. So when did you start caring about. That's the question.

[B]

Also, that was.

[A]

Let's.

[B]

Let's also, like, that was a decade ago.

[A]

That was 2023.

[B]

That was not you.

[A]

Believe me, I can do the math.

[B]

I was like. Was I engaged?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No.

[A]

No, it was a while ago.

[B]

Yeah. Have you felt. Have you felt safe in recent trips with me?

[A]

Sometimes.

[B]

Jesus Christ. This guy.

[A]

I've never felt unsafe. But also the thing that bothers me the most, driving with you now. And it doesn't happen as often because we're not. We don't take long drives as much.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just when you're on the road, we going city to city. You.

[B]

You.

[A]

You drive with your knee a lot.

[B]

I do.

[A]

You also play Netflix on your phone and put it over the speedometer. I hate that you will also drive with your knee while you're eating a full meal.

[B]

Let me tell you something.

[A]

You're very distracted driver, and I. I can't stand that. I do not like driving people who are distracted.

[B]

Yeah. We're out on the open road.

[A]

Oh, yeah. I don't need you to justify it. I'm telling you about my feelings. That's why I don't like. That's what I don't like. That doesn't happen as much anymore because we have short drives.

[B]

Yeah, that's fair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'll take that criticism.

[A]

Yeah. But safe. I mean, you like. You Yell, you scream at your windshield a lot. But, like, you know, I just know that's an outlet. It's more annoying than anything else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But. Yeah, wabi sabi. You know what? You don't like wabi sabi.

[B]

I do, I do. But again, it's hard for me because. Yeah, yeah. You had to be presentable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And those things are presentable once they're fixed. I think that's. It is like being seen while you're still in pieces. You know, like somebody comes by your. Let's take the vase, for example. You got a vase, you drop it. Now you get.

[A]

You get.

[B]

It's half put together and you're. Yeah, sure, a vase is pottery.

[A]

No, it isn't really what I think of. Can't make a vase when I think of a vase. Just the most pretentious way to explain it. When I think of a vase.

[B]

Yes, Frasier, that was very fr.

[A]

When I think of a vase, what I think of a vase. I actually do think of a vase of being. As being glass. You know, it could be ceramic.

[B]

I got you.

[A]

I'm with you.

[B]

So the vase and you're. It's half put together. You're in the process of it.

[A]

Have you ever said vase?

[B]

No.

[A]

Seriously?

[B]

No, dude, same. What?

[A]

It's a vase.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I'm a. Yeah.

[B]

It's half put together and somebody stops by the house.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you get a half face sitting there all shitty.

[A]

Half of Oz. Yeah.

[B]

But he can't be. People can't see that.

[A]

Why? What are they going to think?

[B]

This guy's a piece of.

[A]

Good God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hold on. Let me get my little book. I wrote down the other one because I forgot what it was called.

[B]

That doesn't resonate with you?

[A]

No.

[B]

You're okay with people seeing my broken V? Yeah.

[A]

My broken vase. I'm putting it back together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's that, you piece of. I'm like, oh, that's my vase. I'm repairing it. What do you. What would you do? Just buy a new one. Cool. I don't. I don't think. Nah. Doesn't bother me. Hello, my little bear cubs. We have a new sponsor. And that new sponsor is Better Help.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Better Help is an online resource for therapy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't know who would have guessed it. Who would have guessed it? I don't know if you know about the show, but we're actually very pro therapy around here. Very Pro Therapy is the rumor that's going around. It's helped me a lot.

[B]

Tell me more.

[A]

It really has. You don't notice a change in me? Is that what you're saying?

[B]

I do.

[A]

Okay, then. Has it helped you?

[B]

Absolutely. I'm in Better Help right now. And my therapist is awesome.

[A]

Your therapist sounds pretty great. I'm not gonna lie.

[B]

He did. I'm so happy with him. And like, whenever we have to reschedule or something changes, it's so easy. It's like literally like clicks and it's done.

[A]

I have to call mine.

[B]

Boo.

[A]

It's terrible. But here's what I will say. I was always very much an in person therapy kind of setup for myself. Yeah, I'm on telehealth now. Way better.

[B]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[A]

Doing therapy like from your couch or like where you're in your space where you're comfortable? Oh, dude, I'm. I'm doing way better.

[B]

That's one of the best parts of Better Help is that I get to do it from my cozy little corner chair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Dim the lights. I light a candle. It is therapy time.

[A]

Yeah. I don't ever want to go back to a therapy office again. So that's where we're at now. Since they are a new sponsor of ours, they were nice enough to give us a little discount code for you to use. So a little treat. Yeah, if. If you're hearing this, maybe you're in between insurance and you would like to start some therapy, or maybe you've never been to therapy and you really want to try it out. Better help's a really good start. They make it easy to find and pair up with somebody. And it's very affordable. So if you want to give it a shot, you can use the discount code they gave us. You can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy or just betterhelp.com and it'll ask you where you heard about it. Choose Secondhand Therapy. They'll give you 10 off your first month. Try it out. Start your healing journey. Change my life. To change your life.

[B]

I'm changed.

[A]

He's changing. Changing.

[B]

What about, like a messy house?

[A]

I don't like a messy house when no one's seeing it. So, yeah, messy house all. It kind of bothers me. But if someone were to come over and the house was messy, it. Yeah, it might bother me more. I can see that. But I wouldn't think it was a reflection on me. I don't think I would just. Yeah, you know, that's interesting. I don't know. I don't know why it would feel different, but something you're onto something.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's all perception.

[A]

Yeah. I'm not worried about the perception. Ah, maybe I am. I don't know. Why would I give a. Why would I care more?

[B]

Yeah, interesting.

[A]

Don't know.

[B]

Does it go into responsibility for you? Maybe not perception, but like probably accountability of.

[A]

I like. I would be like, yeah, I know the house is messy. It is what it is, man. Like something like that. I would acknowledge that the house is messy and I'd be like, yes, it is. That is true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't think I'd apologize for it though. I don't. Yeah, I don't. I'm not big on. Ah, yeah, sorry. It's such a mess. That doesn't sound like something I'd say. Maybe. I don't think so, though. Can I give you my other Japanese principle?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Well, I pulled out my book and then you started yapping.

[B]

That's curious.

[A]

All right, this other one, Ichigo ichi. I think I pronounced that right. Okay, Ichigo ichi. Take a guess.

[B]

It comes, it goes.

[A]

Kinda.

[B]

Yeah, dog, let's go.

[A]

I'm not an expert on any of this, so I'm just gonna give you my understanding.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Ichigo ichi is a principle of essential. Every time you do something is the last time you do it. So it's kind of this thing of taking every moment very seriously in that you're never going to have it again. And when we were talking about it, she was like, she kind of brought is very simple things. Like the last time you played in a sandbox, you had no idea it was the last time. And the last time you saw your best friend from second grade, you didn't know it was the last time. And that is true of every moment ever. And I kind of struggled to wrap my head around it because I didn't agree with it at first. But the more I thought about it, I do agree with that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We record a podcast every week. It's not like the first time at all. It's. This one isn't going to be like the next one I look at. You know, I paint now. I look at painting. I'm never going to paint again in the place I was on the last one. Because I'll be a little bit more comfortable. I'll be a little bit more comfortable taking a risk or, you know, whatever.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of a mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Rocked you.

[B]

Yeah. That's something I.

[A]

Hold on. As long as you don't talk about someone dying, I want to hear what you have to say.

[B]

No, it's not about dying.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I struggle with this a lot. I never. Because the way my brain works of just like, on to the next, on to the next. On to the next. I have a hard time savoring things and I have a hard time taking things in or appreciating, whether that's career or relationships or moments or whatever it is. And there have been times in my life where other people have pointed out the weight of a situation that I was clueless on. Because I'm excited about the next thing. I've already moved on from this thing. One of the moments that came up was living there in Echo park and I was in my situationship and that was kind of like our spot. We shared a lot of time there and I was so excited to get out of that and into the new spot that I wasn't taking any of that in as like a closure thing. Yeah. And she pointed it out. She was sad and a little distraught and I was like, what's going on? And she was like, this is. This is the last time we'll be in this house. And I was like, oh, we.

[A]

You mean we.

[B]

But yeah, that I. It wasn't even on my radar because I was already. I was already moved.

[A]

Yeah. So when it's. When it was brought up to you, did it have an emotional effect?

[B]

Yeah, it slowed me down and I was like, oh, okay. Yeah, you're right. And I was able to take it in in those moments. But like. Yeah, you just. You don't know when it's going to be your last time. And that is. That's tough for me. Yeah. Because I'm. I'm so excitable that I'm already on to the next thing. I'm not even here.

[A]

You know, it's interesting you see it as excitable.

[B]

It is for me because I'm like, even, you know, projects wise or whatever. Like, I'm so excited about the next thing that, like, this thing is old news and I think that goes into like dopamine and ADHD and all that stuff. Like, I'm excited with the new thing and so. Yeah. You don't think it's excitement? What do you think it is?

[A]

I don't know. I think it's a dopamine thing for sure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah. The new thing seems to consume me because it's. It's so big. And the thing. Whatever the thing is that I am closing out on doesn't seem big or exciting anymore because I've Conquered it or.

[A]

Have you conquered it?

[B]

Gone through it, or experienced what if it's not completed? For me, the big hurdle is always the first one. And so once I'm over that big hurdle, then the rest is pretty, pretty easy because the first part's always the most overwhelming. And so even if it's not done, like, done done, I've already beat it. You know what I mean? Like, a lot of things are overwhelming and scary, and if I can just start to do them, then. Then I beat it. And so, yeah, it might not be completed, but I'm not, like, actively battling it or worrying about it or thinking, you know, as much about it or any of those things, you know? Does that make sense?

[A]

No.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I understand what you're saying.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Makes no sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the only sense I can make of it is that your mom finished everything for you. So you're just completely programmed to start something and then be like, okie doke. Oh.

[B]

No. Because I have a sense of completion when I do complete things. But the new thing is, what I'm saying is the newest thing is. Is now all consuming because it is so big and so new and so scary and so worrisome and like, all these things. So, like, it almost takes all of my energy and focus to now point it at this new thing that I'm doing that I don't have to give to the old thing. Yeah.

[A]

Sounds self protective to me.

[B]

How so? What do you mean, self protective?

[A]

Well, I mean, that's one of the biggest things you struggle with is starting so many things and never finishing them. Your self worth is tied to your productivity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you continually keep essentially setting yourself up for failure, and you're telling yourself that you want to conquer. Well, it's so scary. And I can conquer it and prove it to myself. Like, I think you're punishing yourself.

[B]

All right.

[A]

We have a new sponsor. Ooh, the maca team. Oh, you know about ma. Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you. I've been taking maca for like, a little over a year now. Yeah, buddy. Well, you know, my sis, my girl's sister is a hippie.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was asking her, hey, what should I be taking?

[B]

She was like, a chill pill. Let's dance my hippie.

[A]

Why hippie chill pill? She doesn't like pharmaceuticals. That's why I'm on maca. No, I honestly, I did ask her. I was like. I'm kind of like. I was. I'm just gonna be honest with you. I was worried about my testosterone yeah, yeah. And she's like, oh, take maca. It's great. And I. You want some tmi?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

After a week, started waking up with stiff again and haven't stopped since.

[B]

And we're not talking about your knees, huh?

[A]

No, we're talking about my ankles. That means penis.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the place that I get my maca from called the Maca team. I reached out to them and said, hey, I just want you guys to know it's a great product. And dude, the. The person on their social media is the same person who answered the phone. They're like a small business.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

Yeah. Super legit.

[B]

Love that.

[A]

If you guys want to try out samaca, which it's from Peru. It's a root, it's natural, it's not pharmaceutical. I really like it. I've had great results. I've noticed improvement in my mood. I've noticed improvement in my energy, in my sleep. I really like it. So you can go to themaka team.com secondhand therapy if you don't know how to spell maca, it's M A C a. So themaka team.com secondhand therapy they gave us a little discount code if you want to try it out, which I would recommend you do. I love it. Use code Bear cub and you get 10 off. So you want to try out some maca? Do it. The link will be in the episode description below. Promo code beargub. Try out some maca. Get your dick hard when you wake up.

[B]

You know, I can't wait. Hey, if you're tired of hearing these ads, which I'm sure you are, you should head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to episodes. You could be hearing this a week early along with accent along with access to a. An entirely different podcast. Some would say a better one called the other shit show. Fun. It's non therapy related.

[A]

It is fun.

[B]

Super fun. Plus you have. You have early access. It is fun to my new podcast series, Happy not funny. And it's ad free episodes on that as well. Merch discounts. Also fun live show things where we interact with the audience.

[A]

Live streams is what he's trying to say.

[B]

We are not going on tour. Yeah, that's true. What did I say?

[A]

You said live shows.

[B]

Well, same same. You know, it's like a live show. Nope, it's like a zoom.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Anyways, you'll have access to us in a more intimate manner.

[A]

Intimate.

[B]

How about that?

[A]

Intimate. There's no end.

[B]

Yeah, like the candidate.

[A]

Like the candies intimate.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Also, if you sign up, you get a little treat.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

So check out the different tiers. One of the tiers is just if you're just here for secondhand therapy, you want no ads, we'll send you a dope little sticker. And I'm gonna be honest with you, a lot of time went into designing this sticker.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Too much. You can argue. Too much dope sticker, though. So if you sign up for that tier, we'll send you a sticker. The next tier, if you want the other podcast, if you want the bonus stuff from secondhand therapy, all the little extras, you get the sticker. And we're gonna send you a signed print. Designed a yours truly. That took way too much time. Still way too much time. We'll sign it, we'll send it out to you, and then we have the top tier with the live streams. If you want to hang out with us a couple times a month, you get the sticker, the print, and we'll send you a T shirt that we are not selling or getting anywhere else. So check out Patreon. If you sign up, you get some treats, and it's a good way to support the podcast.

[B]

See you over there.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

It's interesting.

[A]

I'm pretty smart, so, like, you know, I could be wrong.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You're always talking about, well, now I'm behind.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You just describe constantly putting yourself behind.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think you're addicted to the struggle, my boy. We've talked about that before.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I wonder if you actually, like, want to improve in a lot of areas because it's so comfortable in the where. Where you've been for so long.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. That's. Yeah. If you were to ask me. That's the story of my life. It's just like, I'm behind. I don't have time.

[A]

Yeah. It's like, hey, new project. Oh, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Got it. Would love to do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't.

[A]

I don't think you're drawn to the scary. I think.

[B]

I don't think I'm drawn to the scary. I think I'm drawn to the excitement.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Where I'm like, this new thing is exciting and like.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You want to really? When what it sounds like. Yeah, it sounds. Because your value is in your pro productivity. You get excited. A new project, your brain and your body think, this is it. This is the one, dude. And then when it doesn't, you don't feel different. You go, okay, Ooh maybe this one's the one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's just a dopamine thing that you constantly think you're gonna feel good enough after, and it never happens. So you just keep chasing new projects.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely in there for sure.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Wabi Sabi, you know, hey, Wabi Sabi, what about you?

[B]

What about you? And savoring moments and things like that?

[A]

I'm trying to. I've tried to be more aware and I've talked. I talked about this a few weeks ago of just when I'm experiencing little moments of joy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I'm in these little moments of joy, trying to notice them and just be in it, because I am aware that it's. It's always little things now. It's just like driving around my truck with my girl or like, my dog's laying on my chest and we're just, like, looking in each other's eyes.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like, I just try to be cognizant of, like, this moment's gonna be over anytime, and I really enjoy it. But, yeah, trying to do that often throughout the day is. It's hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is difficult. So it's. It'll. It's going to take some time, but I do. I hope to. I hope to embrace it a lot more.

[B]

Only joy.

[A]

Any moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I would like to embrace. Embrace joy. Any of the. More, for lack of a better word, negative emotions.

[B]

No.

[A]

Rather than. Yeah, you know what? I guess embrace. I guess the word I was going to use was accept, but no, I should probably try to embrace those as well.

[B]

I was thinking of the word recognize, but. But, yeah, embrace is better. The other day. This is so funny. The other day.

[A]

I'll be the judge. Go ahead.

[B]

We're here in the kitchen, all three of us.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And she was doing something by the sink. She's, like, making food or cleaning up or something. I don't know. I think she's making food.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And you were sitting in the chair across the room, and. Sorry. And I look over and I see you just kind of, like, staring up. And I thought you were, like, watching her. And I was watching you watch her, and I was like, God, this is a great moment. Like, look at him. Just, like, admire her, you know, and all this stuff. And I had all the feels. And then she moved and, like, walked away, and you were still just staring. You were just staring off into space.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

I was like, oh. And then I had a decision to make. Do I keep that as a memory of, like, admiration and just Lie to myself that, like, man, I caught a good moment between them? Or do I just be like, man, that was funny. And, like, that was wrong about that.

[A]

But what if I was looking at her and when she moved, I just.

[B]

Like, oh, you were zoned out.

[A]

You don't know. You don't know that.

[B]

I.

[A]

Buddy, you don't know that. You don't know that. Okay, you gotta ask like, hey, what are you looking at? And I go, I was thinking about Bluetooth speakers.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A]

That is funny, though. Yeah.

[B]

I was like, man, what a beautiful moment.

[A]

Yeah. I do catch myself looking her like that sometimes. But, yeah, it's never for that long. It's too vulnerable, dude.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, she catches me. I'm gonna be like, I was looking at you. No.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Never, buddy. I look and I go, damn. And I go, abort. I get over it.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, bro, I don't need to vision. No, I gotta do. Look at her, dude. I'm not gonna get caught looking at my woman. I just heard it. It's crazy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wow. Yeah. I embrace that.

[A]

I'd have never seen anybody.

[B]

When I am.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

What are you looking at? I'm like, you such a boy.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

You.

[A]

What are you looking at? You're over there, you girl.

[B]

Hey.

[A]

Looking at you, girl.

[B]

That's not. That's not how I say it.

[A]

Hey, girl. Aha. Looking at you. Aha.

[B]

That's.

[A]

You idiot. You know what else my therapist told me?

[B]

Hold on. What would happen? What do you think would happen if she's like, what are you looking at?

[A]

I'd be embarrassed. That's what would happen.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I don't know. Vulnerable moment.

[B]

But you're vulnerable in other ways with her. Yeah.

[A]

Hey, I don't have a good answer for you, man. Feels embarrassing.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Being a little.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Being a little lover boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I am a lover boy.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I guess that. I don't know.

[B]

I think this goes guarded. Yeah. I think this goes into the crying thing as well, too. Is like, you want to cry, you need to cry. You feel like crying, don't you?

[A]

One, don't tell me I need to cry. Two, you're telling me you don't tell me. I feel like crying.

[B]

You tell me that all the time.

[A]

Nope. Well.

[B]

Now. Are you being guarded right now?

[A]

No. I feel unheard, so I'm trying to make myself heard. I do wish I could cry, Right. I don't know that I need to cry, but there are moments where I'm like, I feel Emotion. And I think I'm gonna cry and it doesn't happen. That's true. Mm. But the blanket statement of I feel like I'm gonna cry is I don't feel that's true. So, yes, I felt unheard or misheard or misunderstood.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I decided to communicate how I'm actually feeling about it.

[B]

Right. And crying is probably the most vulnerable thing you could do.

[A]

For me. Yeah. Probably.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah. I don't think that's true for everybody.

[B]

Yeah. No talking about you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, yeah, I think this is a piece of that.

[A]

Of, like, I didn't ask, but go ahead.

[B]

That's what the show is.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Forgot. Let me get you an on air sign just to remind you that. Hey.

[A]

Oh, we're doing the thing.

[B]

We're doing the thing now.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. So you think it goes into crying. Why?

[B]

Because it's all vulnerability.

[A]

You think all vulnerability is the same.

[B]

I don't think it's all the same, but I think there's an umbrella there of, like, that is a layer of being vulnerable, and it is embarrassing or uneasy for you or, you know. Yeah. To be seen that way. And I think if you can, I'm sure you've already been trying to but, like, figure out what is that about being seen being vulnerable? Like, what is it? Weakness? Is it. We don't have time for that. Is it, you know, a mixture of, like, all these things?

[A]

I think it's. It's weakness. And I feel in those moments that it'll be used against me later.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, this is a. I feel like it's under that umbrella of, like, what are you looking at? You. And then later, if you guys are arguing or something like that, she could use it against you. You weren't saying that earlier when you looked at me in the kitchen and. Oh, now I gotta. And it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, Maybe. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Got a problem? Yeah. It's way more easy to observe. I'm a very, very good observer. Very good communicator. But, yeah, vulnerability is. Is very hard for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of shame around it. Don't know why. Still trying to crack it.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Now am I still trying to crack it? No. I haven't talked about it in a couple weeks. Mind your business. You know? Yeah. Now, before I was interrupted.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

On that idiotic thread you were tugging on. Moron. Idiot. You know what else my therapist said?

[B]

There's the humor. Yeah. What's up?

[A]

She said resentment is a choice.

[B]

Oh. Oh, that's A bar dog.

[A]

You agree with that?

[B]

Sentiment is a choice.

[A]

My therapist said, yeah, resentment is a choice.

[B]

Yeah. I think on the level of Zen and all that stuff. And yeah, I think resentment is a choice.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I think. I think it fits into all of those things being choices, right? Like anger and everything. Like, those are all choices that you are making. It's all about reaction. And so, yeah, you could choose to be okay with something or to let it go instead of holding on to it.

[A]

It's a choice.

[B]

That is resentment.

[A]

The choice of letting go and being okay with something.

[B]

I think to a certain point, yeah. I think the initial reaction isn't a choice. The initial reaction is just how you. That's just you, but holding on to it. Yeah, I think that's a choice.

[A]

I'm going to tell you why you're wrong.

[B]

Ready? Sure.

[A]

Now, when I say, you know, my therapist said something of choice and you. And then you talk like, you know what I'm going to say, just ask a question.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because that's. That's what the show is. I'm going to get an on air sign to stick up your ass.

[B]

Now, why are you angry at me right now?

[A]

I'm not angry right now. My therapist said resentment is a choice, and I'm going to tell you why. Okay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

In a situation where you could resent another person, often, myself included, maybe I think I'm above it. A therapist doesn't think so. Jigga Minor business.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

We are often relying on the story that we're telling ourselves and not the facts of what happened. So in the situation that we were discussing, it was essentially, okay. The facts are, I did A, the other person did B, and that's all we know. But I have the story of, okay, the other person doing B. Doesn't care, isn't aware, isn't paying attention, isn't. None of this is important to them. And that's all a story that I have. And none of that is. I'm not going off of the facts. And if I were to go off the facts, if I was hurt or frustrated with the other person's actions, it's very simple. I could go, hey, I did A, you did B. Either that hurt my feelings, which is a very vulnerable thing to tell somebody.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Or I think I'm gonna start maybe feeling resentful if this keeps happening. So I'm gonna. I'm not gonna do A anymore. And those two are very vulnerable things. And it's just so much easier to go with the story we have in our Head and that leads to resentment. Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it?

[B]

Oh my God, are you? Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybod.

[A]

Sure. Okay.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

Okay. It's called the light phone.

[B]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[A]

The light. Yeah, you seem to use it. The light phone. Also known, some people call it a dumb phone. Anyway, it's a smartphone, it has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation. It has a calendar and a flashlight.

[B]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[A]

Kinda.

[B]

Oh yeah, I love that.

[A]

It has a pretty cool camera too, I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got a dope camera on it. It's got a camera. Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough, they sent us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone three, use code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[B]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[A]

Stop your doom scrolling. Be more present in life. Link down below. Promo code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world. Yeah, what do you think?

[B]

So do you think resentment's a choice?

[A]

Once you put it like that? Kinda, you know, it's way it's. Yeah, because it's so much easier to whatever the person you're resenting over, whatever, to just tell them, hey, this happened and that hurt my feelings or this happened and I'm feeling a little resentful. Because you're putting yourself in a situation to be rejected or mocked or blamed or anything like that. So it's easier to just tell yourself story in. In your head and resent. Yeah, it's just easier that. What's up?

[B]

This is where my old friend comes in context.

[A]

And.

[B]

Yeah, you could. You could tell yourself all the story in your head. Yeah. Or you could get context from the.

[A]

Guy who never asked the question. What do you usually do?

[B]

I get context.

[A]

Get the. Why do you lie to me?

[B]

I get context all the fucking time.

[A]

This fucking guy. Buddy, buddy, buddy, you.

[B]

The other day I tried to get context here and you go, why does it matter? That's your new thing, by the way, with me. The last couple times it's been like, does it matter? Yes, it does.

[A]

No, it doesn't.

[B]

I need context. But that's me gathering context, and you're telling me you don't do that? Well, I did do it.

[A]

We put up a clip today of you going, let's go thrifting. And I go, we've been hanging out too much. And you go, you got it. Did that hurt your feelings when that happened?

[B]

Yes. Now.

[A]

Now, did you gather context, or did you just run away like a ghost in that scenario? Right.

[B]

Hey.

[A]

Which is more likely to happen?

[B]

Not every scenario.

[A]

I know. I.

[B]

You know what?

[A]

What?

[B]

It's. I think it has to do with guilt.

[A]

I don't understand.

[B]

In that moment, I felt guilty. I felt like I did something wrong, that I was bugging you too much so that I didn't need any more context. You said we're hanging out too much. I fact checked it, and I went, yeah, you know what? I've been bugging him a lot. That makes sense. I'm good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now, in a scenario where it's like, hey, X, Y, and Z, and I'm like, and I'm ahead. I'm like, oh, that's not use. I don't give a. We had a bad clip. We. The footage was all up in the last episode. Yeah. And you had come in a couple days after it had gone up on Patreon, and we were talking about the differences and the clips and this and that. I don't want to bore everybody, but there was a conversation had, and then you walked out. And I felt like the conversation was. I felt like the moment was, like, unfinished or like you were building resentment towards me or something. And so I tracked you down and I said, hey, man, did you think that I was just like, I didn't care about that or that I didn't try things or didn't. You were like, does it matter? I'm like, yes, it does matter. So that was me gathering context because I felt like, oh, I didn't. I didn't do anything wrong here, but I feel like I'm. I'm getting in trouble or he's upset or something like that. So those are the two. So when I feel like, Yep, that makes. I fact checked it, and I have been bugging him. I'm. I'm guilty. You got it. I'll take my. I'll take my lashings. But when I'm like, hey, I think you got it wrong. That's when I'm like, all right, let's see the context. Does that make sense? No.

[A]

I understand what you're saying, but no, I think you're lying to yourself.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Would you like to hear why?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Well, in the former, your feelings.

[B]

I.

[A]

Guess, weren't at stake because you checked it in your head and you go, oh, that is true. And with regards to the footage.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What we're talking about is, is the footage bad? Why is the footage bad? That's not what you're coming to me with later, right? You're coming to me with your feelings.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's a different conversation. Had you come in and said, are you feeling resentful that the footage came out bad? And I go, no, you wouldn't need more context. But it wasn't about that. It was about you were feeling bad and you needed somebody else to help you feel better. Does that make sense?

[B]

Yes and no. Describe feeling bad.

[A]

You felt like you were in trouble. You thought I was mad at you.

[B]

Yes, but there was an. But there. But my point was that there was an innocence there about being me. And like, hey, that's not. I. I did my best, and I feel like you're upset with me. And in the other scenario, I. I'm guilty. I have been bugging it today. You know what I mean? Like, or the last couple days or whatever. So, like, I've been around a lot, so I get it. So, like, I did mess up in that first scenario.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

I know, I know. Yeah. Just for the sake of argument, I got you. I did mess up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So you got it. I don't need more context. I know what happened. And in the other scenario, I'm like, no, there's something missing here. I feel like you're upset with me over something that. Or that you. You misinterpreted my intentions or something like that. I think that's. That's what's going on.

[A]

And so it's how you're being seen.

[B]

Not being seen, but are. It's protecting the relationship too. It's like I. Yeah, like, so I don't know that we're okay.

[A]

How does you coming and being like, hey, I didn't do anything wrong there. How is that protecting the relationship?

[B]

It wasn't me coming and being like, I didn't do anything wrong. It was me wondering if you were upset with me or upset with the situation. That's what I was trying to figure out, because I feel like then that would build resentment down the road.

[A]

You didn't even ask me if I was upset.

[B]

Yeah, I was trying to gauge it.

[A]

Helpful. Because in all this context gathering, none of it was about how I was Actually feeling. You stay with me. Told yourself a story that I was upset.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then acted on that story.

[B]

No, I did. And came in to fact check it.

[A]

Now, if this microphone wasn't attached, I would drop it because what I just did.

[B]

To fact check it with context, but not.

[A]

None of the context was. Are you upset?

[B]

Yes, it was. What did I ask you when I came in there?

[A]

You.

[B]

Because I don't really.

[A]

It was something along the lines of, do you think I didn't care about the footage? Or something like that.

[B]

Yeah. The reason I didn't.

[A]

Hey, real quick.

[B]

I don't matter.

[A]

I don't need to know the reason.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Yeah. What you're doing right now is another big clip we had. You're not being accountable, and I don't know why, but go ahead, tell me.

[B]

Why I'm not being accountable. How? For not asking about your feelings.

[A]

Dude, the footage was fucked up, and the footage is your job. It happened and it's fine.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You're allowed to make mistakes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the whole thing is like. You need to know that I know that you didn't do it on purpose.

[B]

Yeah, it was out of my control.

[A]

If I thought you did it on purpose, we wouldn't work together.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, it was.

[A]

Do you think you were accountable about the footage?

[B]

Here's. Here's my question about accountability. If it's out of your control, then how do you. How am I. I'm supposed to still be accountable for it?

[A]

I think saying it's out of your control is dodging accountability, to be quite honest.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it. So even if it's not in your control, you're still accountable for it.

[A]

Yes, for sure.

[B]

How. How is that. I'm genuinely asking.

[A]

I think that's in your control. Like, we. We don't know why the footage happened.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You're responsible for the footage. You're responsible for the files. You're responsible for the editing program.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Only one of us could know what happened. I'm responsible for all the other areas of the business.

[B]

Right.

[A]

If my email goes down or whatever and I miss something, that's still on me because I should have. Either one, had a workaround, two, had a. A way to, like, there's always a way around the things. There always is. And if I didn't take the time to find it, or if I didn't do it, then, yes, that's on me. Even if Gmail's down, there's another way to get in contact with whoever I need to to not up the Thing or whatever. Yeah. I'd be accountable for that because that's my responsibility in our business. Does that make sense or no?

[B]

I'm trying to see if it makes sense or not because I, I'm. And also I'm trying to sift through. Like, I wouldn't expect accountability in those scenarios. I'd be like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.

[A]

Honestly, I don't care.

[B]

I know. That's what I'm trying to check with myself to be like, why don't I expect accountability in something like that?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah, it doesn't matter if you. I expect it for myself. Like, I, I consider myself an accountable person. I consider myself a responsible person. I'm not. I need to be those things. Otherwise I'm just lying to myself and I'm not interested in doing that. Especially with something as accountability and responsibility I do see as part of my character.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I can, I'll. I'll lie to myself about a diet or I'm going to start going on walks, whatever. Like, I can work through all that. But, like, my character of accountability when I'm being relied on, like, that is important to me. So whether you expect it or not, I expect it. Most times in my life when I, I go out of my way to be accountable, people will say, dude, you're fine. And I will stop them and go, yeah, but it's important that I'm accountable for this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's weird. I get it. I'm doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What's going on over there?

[B]

I'm trying to think of the, of the out of control and the accountability. Like, all right, let's say we live in a world where there aren't a taxis, Ubers, anything like that.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Just personal vehicles. And I go, hey, I'll drive us to the, the concert on Friday. Friday comes, we go to start my car, it ain't working.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I go, oh, my car's not working. And now we're like, okay. And then we end up problem solving and doing something else. I would obviously, like, apologize for the inconvenience and all that stuff, but that's something that's out of my control, that the car didn't work. And so the accountability, other than an apology is still necessary.

[A]

That's your choice.

[B]

But you're saying it is for me. Yeah. What does that look like for you? Then you would say, I mean, you're.

[A]

Not gonna like this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I've never owned a car that didn't start. Like, I can't even fathom what that's like to be. I know. I know, dude.

[B]

Okay. Let's use our imagination.

[A]

Yeah, I would. I would, honestly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I'd be. I. Yeah, that's My. My car didn't start. That's my fault.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

The car is clearly not maintained. Something's broken.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I'm gonna tell you, because I've never had a car not start. I stand by that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I was just trying to think of a scenario where it's just, like, a fluke and you still have to be like, yeah, that's. That's on me.

[A]

Yeah. Flukes are. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I think they're on me usually.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If that was my. They got. Flukes happen. But, like, yeah. Yeah, I'll be accountable for it. And then, like. And I also. I think maybe you think accountability means it's your fault.

[B]

Yeah, that's what I. That's what I'm tying it to is.

[A]

Like, accountability and blame aren't the same for me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Just taking responsibility.

[B]

Okay. That's where I'm getting caught. That's where I'm getting caught up. Because, yeah, Even when you were, like, telling it back to me about, like, yeah, this is your job, and this. I'm like, yeah, but I can't control. Like, all the settings were right. Like, every. Like, it was just a fluke that it happened. And so.

[A]

Can I ask you a couple questions?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

You know what? It's not helpful. I'm sorry. Keep going. It's really not helpful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Anyways. But, yeah, accountability is. Is linked to blame there. Because I'm like, oh, it's. It was a fluke that it had. Like, I'm sorry that it happened. I'm trying my best to fix it, and that's. That's what I can control, and that's what I can do. So, yeah, saying. Coming to you and being like, hey, man, I know that was my job and it up. Like, sorry about that. I'd be. And that's where I get caught up in. Because I'm like, everything was correct. So saying even that, like, hey, I'll make sure I double check next. Well, we did. Everything was okay. What were you gonna say? That's not helpful.

[A]

It's not helpful, man.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It's not helpful. It's just gonna hurt your feelings.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't want to do it. I don't want to.

[B]

But you're holding it in, and it's building resentment.

[A]

It's not. I. It's just we just. We look at things differently.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That's all. And that's fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't resent you over it.

[B]

Accountability and blame are different in my head. So what. So what does accountability look like if you were me in that situation? Because that's what. I'm getting tripped again. That's what I'm like, hey, I'll do a better job next time. I was like, well, we did the same thing we always do. So, like, a better job next time means what? You know? So, like, is that. Is that the answer?

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna ask you a question.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I just. I don't have a better way to get my thoughts into words.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So when I came in here and I was like, hey, what's the clips look? Pretty normal, but the thing looks terrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you were showing me the export. I'm not familiar with the editing software at all.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The first thing I go is, what's that yellow caution triangle at the bottom?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You didn't notice that, right? I notice it in two seconds. You're staring at that thing for hours, editing and didn't notice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when you say everything was the same. Well, it wasn't. There was a caution thing that there was something wrong with the footage that you missed. I didn't miss it. I don't even know the program. Yeah, but you missed it. So that is one thing.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

That you could have been accountable. Be like, dude, I didn't. Yeah. Did you try to re. Get the footage from the cameras, transfer them again, see if it. Was it a file issue? Was it a transfer issue? What troubleshooting went through. Did you go through? Because you were pretty certain it was an issue with one of the files.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you try re. Transferring from the cameras?

[B]

I did not try to re Transfer, but I tried to reload the files. All that stuff. I looked at the fight like, yeah. I recolored them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Several times. Like.

[A]

Yeah, you didn't try to. You're saying it's a file issue, but you just did everything with the same file.

[B]

Sure, but reloading it into the program is different. But go on.

[A]

I'm just saying I would have. There are other avenues I would have taken. And then to answer your question, the accountability would then sound like, hey, man, there's an issue with the footage. I have tried everything I can think of. It looks bad. I'm gonna try and figure out why it happened. But to get this out on time, it's gonna have to look bad. And I understand that that's on me, and I'm gonna do everything. Cancel. This doesn't happen again. There's no apology there. Yeah, it's just, hey, this happened, and it's on me.

[B]

That makes sense.

[A]

What are you thinking?

[B]

I'm thinking that's blame.

[A]

And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.