Podcast Summary

Secondhand Therapy – Episode #104
Title: Understanding Misogyny: Gina Martin on Compassion, Gender, and Healing
Date: October 20, 2025
Host(s): Michael, Co-host (Louie Paoletti), PonyBear Studios
Guest: Gina Martin (activist, writer, and gender equality advocate)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael and Louie sit down with renowned gender equality activist and writer Gina Martin to explore the layers and lived realities of misogyny. With characteristic warmth, candor, and humor, the trio deep-dives into definitions, systemic roots, how misogyny manifests, the spectrum of harm, and the challenges—and hope—of compassion and forgiveness. Gina brings insight from her work changing laws on sexual violence, educational workshops with young men, and her latest book, Loving and Hating Men. The conversation is at once honest, hopeful, and deeply personal, with vulnerability on all sides as they tackle one of modern society's thorniest topics.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is Misogyny, Really?

[05:00–09:24]

• Academic vs. Lived Definitions:

  • Gina: “Misogyny is defined as either the unconscious or conscious hatred of women...but I think there’s a more useful way: the policing of femininity in women. How they should be—punishing, controlling, or expecting certain things of women or femininity.”

    [05:42]

• The Spectrum of Misogyny:

  • It's not just “active hatred.” Everyone has internalized forms due to socialization, ranging from microaggressions and stereotypes to normalized language and violence.

• Societal Pervasiveness:

  • “I don’t believe we grow up without some form of misogyny because we live in a misogynistic society.”

    [06:33]

• The Pyramid of Harm:

  • Gina describes a “pyramid” structure:
    • Top: Extreme acts (murder, rape).
    • Mid: Harassment, coercive control, rigid gender roles.
    • Bottom: Everyday sexism, dehumanizing talk, normalized language.

Where Does Misogyny Come From? (Personal vs. Systemic Roots)

[10:21–14:36]

• Systems, Not Just People:

  • “I’m very big on: I’m hard on systems and gentler on people. People behave as they do because of systems they’ve grown up in...This is a system thing.”

    Gina [10:39]

• The Challenge of Change:

  • Changing systems takes multi-pronged work: law reform, cultural education, preventative work, policy shifts, and frontline services.
  • “Cause it’s been built from every angle, it has to be attacked from every angle.”

    Gina [14:32]

Early Socialization: When Do Gender Expectations Begin?

[14:36–17:12]

• When It Starts:
  • Gina works mostly with teens (year 9–12/early–late teens), but notes that gender expectations and “policing” of femininity begin as early as age 6–7 for girls: “Girls start to realize they need to be well-mannered, mature, quieter, and not have big feelings.”

    Gina [16:23]

  • Misogyny and performance of masculinity often surface around puberty, starting even before teens.

Global Perspectives on Misogyny & Safety

[18:31–24:34]

• Cultural Similarities:

  • Gina is cautious about broad comparisons but notes “misogyny is everywhere. It shows up differently depending on context and history, but there’s so much similarity in the West.”

• On Feeling Safe:

  • Michael: “Is there anywhere you’ve felt remarkably safer as a woman?”
  • Gina: “It’s a really sad answer. I don’t think I’ve ever been anywhere in public and just felt safe.”

    Gina [23:26]

The Privilege of Emotional Safety

[24:34–26:12]

• On Safe Relationships:
  • Gina credits her sense of emotional safety to growing up with parents who loved each other, giving her a “healthy internal model” for relationships.
  • She recognizes, “Not many people grow up with that. There’s privilege in having very safe parental figures who love each other.”

    Gina [24:44], [25:55]

On Loving and Hating Men: Complex Emotions & New Work

[26:20–31:25]

• Motivation for Book:

  • Gina’s latest book, Loving and Hating Men, emerged from observing polarized gender conversations online and in real life: “Neither [side] is helpful. Let’s have a conversation about the middle bit, where’s the nuance?”

    Gina [27:15]

• On Anger, Grief, and Desperation:

  • “I think the main emotion [behind the book]...maybe it’s like, what’s the emotion when people are arguing and you just want everyone to be okay? That’s the emotion—it’s empathy, maybe some fear, maybe some desperation. The book is a bit cathartic, a bit desperate for things to actually get better.”

    Gina [30:11],[30:53]

Grappling With Hope and Despair

[32:01–34:37]

• On Hope:
  • Gina recognizes that it would be “weird” to always feel hopeful in this work, because the realities she witnesses are often heartbreaking. Yet, “Hope is more of a community action than this nebulous thing. We all create it for each other through action.”

    [33:00–34:37]

Apathy, Trauma, and the Challenge of Change

[34:37–38:18]

• Dealing With Defeat:
  • Not every workshop is a breakthrough: “It’s defeating. The human response to that is defeat. Some boys have made rape jokes about me in workshops...”

    Gina [34:59]

  • But she brings a trauma-informed lens: “What’s going on with that child? There are reasons for apathy, anger. Sometimes apathy is a protective, coping mechanism. It’s easier for many people not to feel.”

    [36:16],[37:58]

Connecting Men (and Boys) to Women’s Realities

[42:46–47:40]

• How Do You Reach Men?
  • “It’s not a very attractive strategy to just try to get someone to care about what happens to someone else—they’ll never experience it. People care when it affects them, when there’s an emotional experience.”

    Gina [43:15]

  • In her workshops, Gina gets boys to reflect on stereotypes/expectations placed on them first—then connects that to female experiences, reducing defensiveness and creating space for empathy.
  • “Fixing apathy isn’t just about giving information. You have to fix deep structural, systemic things.”

    [46:52]

Bodily Safety: A Window Into Lived Experience

[47:40–51:52]

• An Illuminating Anecdote:
  • Michael shares realizing, via therapy, that as a large man, he’s never once worried about being overpowered—a reality many women experience daily.
  • Gina responds: “The experience of being a woman is a felt sense of unsafety. It’s not logical, it’s nervous system deep. You guys can know that intellectually—you can’t feel it in your body like we do.”

    [50:28–51:52]

What Should “Safe” Men Be Asking Themselves?

[52:05–59:42]

• Continuous Reflection:
  • Michael asks how men who consider themselves allies can better reflect.
  • Gina: It’s essential for men to keep asking questions—not just about themselves (“How did my family shape my beliefs?”) but also about “the system you live in.”

    Gina [56:20]

  • “The safest men I’ve known are the men who not only understand themselves, but also understand how patriarchy and gender roles have shaped them...Men who ask questions about themselves and patriarchy are the safest.”

    Gina [58:23–59:42]

On Compassion, Forgiveness, and Accountability

[61:02–69:06]

• The Role of Forgiveness:
  • Gina distinguishes compassion (“I understand the harm and why it happens, and I can still hold people accountable”) from full forgiveness, which she describes as “acceptance and the release of control.”
  • “I struggle to forgive men collectively for what they’ve built. I have compassion, but I struggle to let the grief and anger go. Maybe there’s too much pain to access forgiveness yet.”

    [65:58]

  • On meeting people where they are: “To do that requires compassion. I honestly think the movements that work best have compassion at the root. It’s required to connect and invite people in.”

    [66:54–68:17]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Misogyny is the policing of femininity. When you see it that way, you notice you’ve done it too.” — Gina Martin [05:42]
• “You don’t have misogyny without the organization of gender roles for economic reasons. It’s not just about people.” — Gina Martin [11:43]
• “I've never been anywhere in public as a woman and just felt safe.” — Gina Martin [23:44]
• “The main emotion behind this book? Desperation. Wanting us to understand this is complex, that we can hold men accountable and still believe in them.” — Gina Martin [30:53]
• “Hope is more of a community action than this nebulous thing... We all create it for each other.” — Gina Martin [33:54]
• “It’s not a politic to say ‘I hate men’ or ‘I love men’—there’s so much in the middle. Let’s talk about the complexity.” — Gina Martin [29:08]
• “Apathy is a protective thing. For a lot of people, it’s easier not to care because caring is painful.” — Gina Martin [36:16]
• “You can intellectually know something, but that body sense of being on guard, unsafe, only women really know what that feels like every day.” — Gina Martin [50:28]
• “Safe men are self-reflective men—who ask about themselves, how society shapes them, and how patriarchy functions in their lives.” — Gina Martin [59:23]
• “I have compassion for men—even those who harm—but forgiveness is different. I still have anger and grief. Maybe one day.” — Gina Martin [65:57]

Important Timestamps

• Definition of Misogyny: [05:00–06:19]
• The Spectrum & Pyramid of Harm: [07:57–09:24]
• Systemic vs. Personal Responsibility: [10:21–14:36]
• Socialization and Early Gender Policing: [16:23–17:12]
• Safety for Women Globally: [23:26–24:05]
• On Safe Upbringing and Healthy Models: [24:44–25:55]
• Motivations Behind “Loving and Hating Men”: [26:41–30:53]
• Grappling With Hope: [32:01–34:37]
• Defeat and Apathy in Workshops: [34:37–37:58]
• Strategies for Connecting Men With Women’s Issues: [43:14–47:40]
• The Bodily Reality of Safety: [47:40–51:52]
• How Men Can Reflect to Be Safer Allies: [52:05–59:42]
• Forgiveness vs. Compassion: [61:02–66:28]

Tone and Style

The conversation blends humor, vulnerability, and warmth with Gina’s clear, thoughtful, and deeply compassionate approach. Michael and Louie are reflective, self-deprecating, and eager to learn—making space for discomfort and growth, both for themselves and listeners.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a nuanced, candid look at gender, power, and healing—from definitions to day-to-day lived experience and the immense complexity of change. Gina Martin’s insights serve as both challenge and comfort, encouraging a deeply reflective, systemic, and compassionate approach to gender justice.

For further information and Gina’s work, see the episode Description.