Understanding Misogyny: Gina Martin on Compassion, Gender, and Healing | #104

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Secondhand Therapy – Episode #104
Title: Understanding Misogyny: Gina Martin on Compassion, Gender, and Healing
Date: October 20, 2025
Host(s): Michael, Co-host (Louie Paoletti), PonyBear Studios
Guest: Gina Martin (activist, writer, and gender equality advocate)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Michael and Louie sit down with renowned gender equality activist and writer Gina Martin to explore the layers and lived realities of misogyny. With characteristic warmth, candor, and humor, the trio deep-dives into definitions, systemic roots, how misogyny manifests, the spectrum of harm, and the challenges—and hope—of compassion and forgiveness. Gina brings insight from her work changing laws on sexual violence, educational workshops with young men, and her latest book, Loving and Hating Men. The conversation is at once honest, hopeful, and deeply personal, with vulnerability on all sides as they tackle one of modern society's thorniest topics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

What Is Misogyny, Really?

[05:00–09:24]

• Academic vs. Lived Definitions:

  • Gina: “Misogyny is defined as either the unconscious or conscious hatred of women...but I think there’s a more useful way: the policing of femininity in women. How they should be—punishing, controlling, or expecting certain things of women or femininity.”

    [05:42]

• The Spectrum of Misogyny:

  • It's not just “active hatred.” Everyone has internalized forms due to socialization, ranging from microaggressions and stereotypes to normalized language and violence.

• Societal Pervasiveness:

  • “I don’t believe we grow up without some form of misogyny because we live in a misogynistic society.”

    [06:33]

• The Pyramid of Harm:

  • Gina describes a “pyramid” structure:
    • Top: Extreme acts (murder, rape).
    • Mid: Harassment, coercive control, rigid gender roles.
    • Bottom: Everyday sexism, dehumanizing talk, normalized language.

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Where Does Misogyny Come From? (Personal vs. Systemic Roots)

[10:21–14:36]

• Systems, Not Just People:

  • “I’m very big on: I’m hard on systems and gentler on people. People behave as they do because of systems they’ve grown up in...This is a system thing.”

    Gina [10:39]

• The Challenge of Change:

  • Changing systems takes multi-pronged work: law reform, cultural education, preventative work, policy shifts, and frontline services.
  • “Cause it’s been built from every angle, it has to be attacked from every angle.”

    Gina [14:32]

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Early Socialization: When Do Gender Expectations Begin?

[14:36–17:12]

• When It Starts:
  • Gina works mostly with teens (year 9–12/early–late teens), but notes that gender expectations and “policing” of femininity begin as early as age 6–7 for girls: “Girls start to realize they need to be well-mannered, mature, quieter, and not have big feelings.”

    Gina [16:23]

  • Misogyny and performance of masculinity often surface around puberty, starting even before teens.

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Global Perspectives on Misogyny & Safety

[18:31–24:34]

• Cultural Similarities:

  • Gina is cautious about broad comparisons but notes “misogyny is everywhere. It shows up differently depending on context and history, but there’s so much similarity in the West.”

• On Feeling Safe:

  • Michael: “Is there anywhere you’ve felt remarkably safer as a woman?”
  • Gina: “It’s a really sad answer. I don’t think I’ve ever been anywhere in public and just felt safe.”

    Gina [23:26]

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The Privilege of Emotional Safety

[24:34–26:12]

• On Safe Relationships:
  • Gina credits her sense of emotional safety to growing up with parents who loved each other, giving her a “healthy internal model” for relationships.
  • She recognizes, “Not many people grow up with that. There’s privilege in having very safe parental figures who love each other.”

    Gina [24:44], [25:55]

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On Loving and Hating Men: Complex Emotions & New Work

[26:20–31:25]

• Motivation for Book:

  • Gina’s latest book, Loving and Hating Men, emerged from observing polarized gender conversations online and in real life: “Neither [side] is helpful. Let’s have a conversation about the middle bit, where’s the nuance?”

    Gina [27:15]

• On Anger, Grief, and Desperation:

  • “I think the main emotion [behind the book]...maybe it’s like, what’s the emotion when people are arguing and you just want everyone to be okay? That’s the emotion—it’s empathy, maybe some fear, maybe some desperation. The book is a bit cathartic, a bit desperate for things to actually get better.”

    Gina [30:11],[30:53]

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Grappling With Hope and Despair

[32:01–34:37]

• On Hope:
  • Gina recognizes that it would be “weird” to always feel hopeful in this work, because the realities she witnesses are often heartbreaking. Yet, “Hope is more of a community action than this nebulous thing. We all create it for each other through action.”

    [33:00–34:37]

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Apathy, Trauma, and the Challenge of Change

[34:37–38:18]

• Dealing With Defeat:
  • Not every workshop is a breakthrough: “It’s defeating. The human response to that is defeat. Some boys have made rape jokes about me in workshops...”

    Gina [34:59]

  • But she brings a trauma-informed lens: “What’s going on with that child? There are reasons for apathy, anger. Sometimes apathy is a protective, coping mechanism. It’s easier for many people not to feel.”

    [36:16],[37:58]

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Connecting Men (and Boys) to Women’s Realities

[42:46–47:40]

• How Do You Reach Men?
  • “It’s not a very attractive strategy to just try to get someone to care about what happens to someone else—they’ll never experience it. People care when it affects them, when there’s an emotional experience.”

    Gina [43:15]

  • In her workshops, Gina gets boys to reflect on stereotypes/expectations placed on them first—then connects that to female experiences, reducing defensiveness and creating space for empathy.
  • “Fixing apathy isn’t just about giving information. You have to fix deep structural, systemic things.”

    [46:52]

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Bodily Safety: A Window Into Lived Experience

[47:40–51:52]

• An Illuminating Anecdote:
  • Michael shares realizing, via therapy, that as a large man, he’s never once worried about being overpowered—a reality many women experience daily.
  • Gina responds: “The experience of being a woman is a felt sense of unsafety. It’s not logical, it’s nervous system deep. You guys can know that intellectually—you can’t feel it in your body like we do.”

    [50:28–51:52]

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What Should “Safe” Men Be Asking Themselves?

[52:05–59:42]

• Continuous Reflection:
  • Michael asks how men who consider themselves allies can better reflect.
  • Gina: It’s essential for men to keep asking questions—not just about themselves (“How did my family shape my beliefs?”) but also about “the system you live in.”

    Gina [56:20]

  • “The safest men I’ve known are the men who not only understand themselves, but also understand how patriarchy and gender roles have shaped them...Men who ask questions about themselves and patriarchy are the safest.”

    Gina [58:23–59:42]

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On Compassion, Forgiveness, and Accountability

[61:02–69:06]

• The Role of Forgiveness:
  • Gina distinguishes compassion (“I understand the harm and why it happens, and I can still hold people accountable”) from full forgiveness, which she describes as “acceptance and the release of control.”
  • “I struggle to forgive men collectively for what they’ve built. I have compassion, but I struggle to let the grief and anger go. Maybe there’s too much pain to access forgiveness yet.”

    [65:58]

  • On meeting people where they are: “To do that requires compassion. I honestly think the movements that work best have compassion at the root. It’s required to connect and invite people in.”

    [66:54–68:17]

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Misogyny is the policing of femininity. When you see it that way, you notice you’ve done it too.” — Gina Martin [05:42]
• “You don’t have misogyny without the organization of gender roles for economic reasons. It’s not just about people.” — Gina Martin [11:43]
• “I've never been anywhere in public as a woman and just felt safe.” — Gina Martin [23:44]
• “The main emotion behind this book? Desperation. Wanting us to understand this is complex, that we can hold men accountable and still believe in them.” — Gina Martin [30:53]
• “Hope is more of a community action than this nebulous thing... We all create it for each other.” — Gina Martin [33:54]
• “It’s not a politic to say ‘I hate men’ or ‘I love men’—there’s so much in the middle. Let’s talk about the complexity.” — Gina Martin [29:08]
• “Apathy is a protective thing. For a lot of people, it’s easier not to care because caring is painful.” — Gina Martin [36:16]
• “You can intellectually know something, but that body sense of being on guard, unsafe, only women really know what that feels like every day.” — Gina Martin [50:28]
• “Safe men are self-reflective men—who ask about themselves, how society shapes them, and how patriarchy functions in their lives.” — Gina Martin [59:23]
• “I have compassion for men—even those who harm—but forgiveness is different. I still have anger and grief. Maybe one day.” — Gina Martin [65:57]

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Important Timestamps

• Definition of Misogyny: [05:00–06:19]
• The Spectrum & Pyramid of Harm: [07:57–09:24]
• Systemic vs. Personal Responsibility: [10:21–14:36]
• Socialization and Early Gender Policing: [16:23–17:12]
• Safety for Women Globally: [23:26–24:05]
• On Safe Upbringing and Healthy Models: [24:44–25:55]
• Motivations Behind “Loving and Hating Men”: [26:41–30:53]
• Grappling With Hope: [32:01–34:37]
• Defeat and Apathy in Workshops: [34:37–37:58]
• Strategies for Connecting Men With Women’s Issues: [43:14–47:40]
• The Bodily Reality of Safety: [47:40–51:52]
• How Men Can Reflect to Be Safer Allies: [52:05–59:42]
• Forgiveness vs. Compassion: [61:02–66:28]

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Tone and Style

The conversation blends humor, vulnerability, and warmth with Gina’s clear, thoughtful, and deeply compassionate approach. Michael and Louie are reflective, self-deprecating, and eager to learn—making space for discomfort and growth, both for themselves and listeners.

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a nuanced, candid look at gender, power, and healing—from definitions to day-to-day lived experience and the immense complexity of change. Gina Martin’s insights serve as both challenge and comfort, encouraging a deeply reflective, systemic, and compassionate approach to gender justice.

For further information and Gina’s work, see the episode Description.

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Transcript

[Michael]

Accepting one thing to me and you guys, I would love to hear your thoughts is different than accepting it and then letting go of it.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Hello, my little bear cubs. And welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy. We need to remind you that we are not therapists. We are not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy. This is not advice in any way. Not professional advice in any way.

[Co-host]

Messed up.

[Michael]

My life.

[Co-host]

Wow, dude. Wow, dude.

[Michael]

Yeah, dude. Damn. Say some stuff. I'm trying not to sneeze.

[Co-host]

Well, you know that. Wow, that was.

[Michael]

Oh, God. Get that on Patreon.

[Co-host]

You're sure not. That's definitely cut out on Patreon. You can also head on over to Patreon for early access to episodes. Ad free episodes. And you know, my new little podcast is also ad free over there. Happy not funny. If you're into comedy and therapy and all that fun stuff that's on there. And also another completely different podcast that is non therapy related called the Other show, which is him and I just shooting the. And busting balls and talking about life in general.

[Michael]

Saw a guy at the grocery store. He was shopping with a pigeon on his shoulder. You want to hear about that over there? You want the picture of the pigeon? It's over there.

[Co-host]

It's on Patreon, baby.

[Michael]

Here's the thing. Sign up for Patreon. We're doing. You get little treats now.

[Co-host]

Oh, yeah, you get treats.

[Michael]

Sign up for the ad free there. I'm gonna send you a sticker.

[Co-host]

Stickers.

[Michael]

Okay, Now, I'm tired of people telling me that I spent too much time designing the sticker because I didn't. It's a cool sticker.

[Co-host]

It's very cool.

[Michael]

You sign up for the second tier, you get the sticker and then you get a little print. I also designed. It took some time. It looks cool. We're gonna sign that. We're gonna send that to you. You sign up for the lar, the highest tier, where you get to hang out with us via live stream once or twice a month. We will also send you a T shirt. So go check out Patreon. A lot of goodies, a lot of good content.

[Co-host]

Here's a little secret about the sticker.

[Michael]

No.

[Co-host]

Can I just. Just a hint.

[Michael]

No.

[Co-host]

Just a little maybe gold trim.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's true.

[Co-host]

That's enticing. I think, I think people. Oh, I gotta know, what's the stick? What is it gonna. Gold trim. Very fancy.

[Michael]

That's what we all called your mom in high school. Gold plated. She was cheap. Okay. We Have a guest.

[Co-host]

We do have a guest.

[Michael]

We should have done the guest first. Yeah, I got excited. Yeah, it's a cool sticker after all. Gina Martin. I don't know if you've heard of Gina. You probably have, because she's everywhere.

[Co-host]

Big deal.

[Michael]

Big deal. She is a British now living in Australia. Gender equality activist. She is a writer and facilitator, very well known for her work fighting gender stereotypes, misogyny, and sexual violence. She is responsible for making upskirting illegal in England and Wales, and three countries then followed suit. Good for them.

[Co-host]

She has a new book out.

[Michael]

She has a new book out. She's a writer. She's published three books.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Has a new book out. Has one of the bestselling substacks. Check her out. Gina Martin. She now works in schools all across Australia, trying to get men to be.

[Co-host]

Better and saving the world.

[Michael]

Hey, we support that mission.

[Co-host]

We do.

[Michael]

Gina Martin is here. All her information links in the episode description below. Seriously, check her out. It's. It's worth your time. She's great. Anything else?

[Co-host]

No.

[Michael]

We have merch available secondhand therapypod.com if you want a way to support the podcast. Other than that, listen to this conversation. Gina's smarter than both of us.

[Co-host]

That's true. Yep.

[Michael]

Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Co-host]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[Michael]

And we know that. I'm gonna be honest with you about one thing. I have been going through your Instagram today, and I watched your TED Talk. I'm a little intimidated right now, I'm gonna be honest with you.

[Gina Martin]

Oh, why? Because I was crying on it and.

[Michael]

I was like, no. Why do you feel no, you're allowed to cry? I. I don't know. I'm just. I'm hoping I can keep up with you.

[Gina Martin]

Oh, you can. I'm just. I hope, mate, you should. It took me about five months to learn that TED Talk.

[Michael]

Well, it was incredible. It was.

[Gina Martin]

Thank you.

[Michael]

It was very moving.

[Gina Martin]

That's very kind. Thank you.

[Michael]

I'm just gonna. I'm just gonna do it. What is misogyny?

[Gina Martin]

Nice. Before the name even, you know, what is misogyny? Misogyny is defined as either the unconscious or conscious hatred of women. That's kind of the definition of it. But I think there's a. Probably a more useful way of thinking about it, because I think when you define it that way, I think a lot of people go, I don't hate women, so I don't actually hate women, so therefore, actively, I couldn't be a misogynist. So there Couldn't be any misogyny in me.

[Michael]

So how would you change the definition?

[Gina Martin]

I like to think of it for the purposes of both the person I want to be in the world and kind of, I guess, like excavating it in myself and also for my work as more the policing of femininity in women. So how they should be. So either the punishment or the kind of control or the expectation of how women or femininity should present or should be. And that allows me to go like, oh, I've done that. You know, like, I did that in high school. I still feel that come up in, in myself. But I think when I see it as like this pure hatred, I don't recognize that in myself as much. Maybe.

[Co-host]

Is it more like the microaggression kind of stuff that maybe people aren't thinking is either punishment or aggression towards women that they're not like. Yeah. Consciously being like, yeah, I don't hate women because they're not seeing like these little things that.

[Gina Martin]

Or actually for sure. I think there's a whole spectrum of behavior that comes from misogyny. I don't think that we grow up, I don't believe we can grow up without some form of misogyny because we live in a very misogynistic society that's a very unequal society that sees women and femininity in a specific way. So it can be microaggressions, it can be expectations you place on the women in your life that could restrict them or harm them in some way. It can be unconscious, it can be completely conscious. It can be, you know, all the way up to extreme violence. Or it can be just that kind of language that's really normalized, that dehumanizes women to a certain extent, but in a very low level, normalized way. Yeah, I think the definition is pretty like set, but the way that that lives or looks or happens in interpersonal relationships and in systems and in society, it's very varied.

[Michael]

So you mentioned, you mentioned the spectrum of it. So I would assume one end of the spectrum is non consensual sexual violence.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

What it, what is the other end?

[Gina Martin]

So I would think of it, yeah, one, one end would be. Yeah, non consensual sexual violence. Any kind of extreme violence, actually. So like, you know, intimate partner violence, domestic violence.

[Michael]

Yeah, I think that's a good point. That's a good thing to mention. Thank you.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah. Because I think it's understandable that you, you go there first. Right. Because like, we see that so much when it comes to like, ended violence. Like, we see sexual violence so much, but there's a pyramid that's really useful to look at which kind of shows it in that perfect pyramid shape with the very top pointy end of it is that extreme violence, which is like murder, rape, sexual violence. And then as it goes down the pyramid, you get things like harassment, stalking, coercive control. And then underneath that, you get things like very rigid gender roles. So these ideas that, like, women should be in the kitchen, driven out of public life in some way. Underneath that, you get things like what you'd call like everyday misogyny and sexism. So, like locker room talk or like rating women out of 10 or banter or whatever. And then under that, you get like language that is very low level, dehumanizing. And then at the bottom, it's got things like misogyny, racism. And so it's kind of like shows you the stepping stones that get us to the violence. What are the things that, like, normalize the culture that allows violence to happen? Right. So maybe I would say on one side you've got that really extreme violence, and then on the other side or the bottom of the pyramid, you've got that real normalization of, like, gender roles, dehumanizing people, expectations placed on people because of their identity in society. Society. And that leads to violence at the end of the pyramid. Yeah, that makes sense.

[Co-host]

Yes.

[Gina Martin]

We.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Even things is like, when you hear men sometimes be like, well, she's my wife, so she's got a blah, blah, blah. Like, that is on the spectrum of that.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah. It's an expectation of how someone should act or show up or a role they should play that you've been told they should do because of their gender or the way the world sees their gender. So, like, I'm. I'm a wife. I can't cook, man. I can't cook nothing. And there is judgment around that. There's like so much judgment around the fact that I can't. I don't. And I don't enjoy it. I'm like the thinky person who's doing all that stuff. I'm not the practical person who's doing the domestic stuff. My partner does all that. But it's interesting even that when I. When people see that, they're like, that's interesting. It must be hard for him. And it's like, he's like, I fucking love cooking. And I'm like, I hate that.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Gina Martin]

But even that, in that moment, we're like, that's not the script that's not the way it should go.

[Co-host]

So who do you think is. Is the bigger culprit than for misogyny? Do you think it is a social thing that's getting passed down to us, or do you think it is just that, like, generational thing or. You know what I mean? Like, that friends and family circle, like, expectations.

[Gina Martin]

I'm a big. I run my work by, like, two things, which is like, I'm very big on. Like, I'm hard on systems and I'm gentler on people. Like, people are moving or behaving or expecting certain things because of systems that they've grown up in. Like our parents did, our grandparents did. And there's another. There's another kind of way of seeing this that I'm. When it comes to people I'm really big on, which is like, how do you hold someone accountable but also, like, believe in their ability to change? Like, you humanizing them enough to believe that they can change. So I'm quite soft on people. I'm like, it makes sense why people are doing these things. Doesn't mean you don't hold people accountable. They don't challenge people. But this is a system thing. You don't have misogyny without the organization of gender roles and how we organized people historically to build an economic system. You guys are in America, so, like, you know, the birth of kind of the economic. Hey, I'm from Britain. It's cool. Yeah, yeah, we're related. Don't worry.

[Co-host]

Yeah, the original America.

[Gina Martin]

I'm the original America. Yeah, it's wild there. Yeah. There's so much history here as to how we got to where we are with this that I just think it doesn't make sense to kind of try and place this primarily on people or on families or on. And actually, when you do that, I think it's quite relieving because you're like, oh, there's systems at play here. There's. There's this personal responsibility. Yes. But there's also a whole bunch of reasons why we have these ideas and we play. We expect people to play these roles. And, you know.

[Co-host]

I think that leads in, like, well, how do we change. How do we change the big system things? I mean, wish I could ask the question, right?

[Gina Martin]

That is the big question. And it's. Yeah, I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to kind of make some change in that cultural part of it. So I work in. I've worked in both the system stuff and I've worked in individual stuff. So I used to work in law reform and campaigning. So, like holding institutions and powerful people accountable. I worked to change law in the uk, I changed policies at social media companies, and now I work in preventative. I work with kids now and do workshops in schools around gender. Gender roles. And so there's so many different ways of attacking it. Right. Like, people need intervention and education to understand the system that they're part of or who they want to be outside of what they're being told they should be. Like, I work on. I did a workshop yesterday with boy. With a bunch of year 10 boys. And like, it was the best workshop. Like, they were just. They were just like, miss. I think, like, a lot of women are told they should kind of please men and perform for men, but I actually think a lot of us are just performing for each other. I was like, holy shit, this is year 10 boys. Right? Like, they're really reflect. Like when you give them the space and time that they don't and the place not to feel defensive, but you give them the, like, real compassionate space to figure this stuff out, you get really amazing realizations they come to. And that's like a cultural shift. Like, if you can get enough young people to really unpack that stuff like you guys do, but like, in a way that's appropriate for them and think about the way they're being told they should be, especially with the culture of boys in high school and stuff, that's really valuable. At the same time, like, we do need policy change. We do need law change. Like, we do need economic shifts. Like, we do need frontline services. Like, there's so much to this that has. Cause it's been built from every angle, so it has to be attacked from every angle. So I don't think there's like a one answer to that. And if I had, I wouldn't have a job, which I'd love, because I'd love to know. I'd love to just be a painter and not do this work. To be honest, it's quite heartbreaking a lot of the time. But yeah, yeah. It would just be so nice if we could just answer that and say it like this way. I would love that. But I think it's really more complex than that.

[Michael]

How long have you been working with kids?

[Gina Martin]

2 and a half years in schools. So beforehand. But I didn't work in the same capacity I do now.

[Michael]

Oh, I understand. What age have you found being around young males that they start to become influenced in. In their behaviors toward women or the idea of women? What age do you. Have you observed that happening in.

[Gina Martin]

It's a great question.

[Michael]

Thank you.

[Gina Martin]

You know, you're so welcome. You guys always ask good questions. I work with year nines to year 12, so we're looking at like, hmm, we're looking at like early teens to sort of late teens that I work with. It happens a lot earlier than that. So I'm, I'm coming in schools at a stage where we're already seeing those problems happening in terms of if you were. Let's be specific with language. If we're talking about like, misogyny and like homophobia and they're kind of bonding through those kind of mechanisms and boys really feeling like they need to. There's an expectation for them to act in like, certain masculine ways. That's kind of happening. It starts to happen around puberty, but it's happening before I get in there. I reckon year seven and eight, you can already see that. But we know from research that young.

[Michael]

Yeah, that kind of checks out to my memory. Seven years, seventh grade.

[Co-host]

Oh, seventh grade. I thought you were saying like year seven. I was like, man, that seems earlier because we were talking about puberty and then before.

[Michael]

And I was like, I think I believe your terminal. Year seven is seventh grade for us.

[Gina Martin]

Correct.

[Michael]

In year nine, year 12 is high school.

[Co-host]

I took it as actual year seven, like seven years old.

[Gina Martin]

Well, interestingly, like, the gender stuff happens around six or seven. Kids start to really understand the way they're meant to behave based on their gender. That's different to, like policing girls and misogyny, isn't it? But like, we do see with like, girls around the age of six and seven, while girls might be quite expressive in their humanity as young kids, like, like, they're very loud and boisterous. We see there's lots of research around the age of 6 and 7 with girls that they start to go like, oh, actually I need to be well mannered and mature and I need to stay quieter and I shouldn't say everything I think and don't have big feelings. And there's a bunch of that. That happens around six or seven. But I think the kind of policing of gender probably happens as they get into puberty. And like, yeah, grade seven or like, we'd say year seven. So like 1112 as they're moving into puberty.

[Michael]

So when she said year nine through year 12 and said late teens, what happened?

[Co-host]

I was thinking puberty into late teens. Because puberty happens around 11:12. Ish.

[Michael]

All right.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah. Depending on the kids. Yeah.

[Michael]

Just curious. Just Curious what happened?

[Co-host]

Leave me alone.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah. Those late teen 12 year olds.

[Co-host]

Those late teen 12 year olds. They're running the havoc out there, I'm telling you. Hooligans.

[Michael]

Hooligans.

[Gina Martin]

Wild. They are actually too fair. Some of them are a bit wild. I did a workshop with year eights recently and this boy was just consistently headbutting my leg. So, like, you never know.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You had. I think it was in your TED Talk. You had a great line of when you said, it's not all men, but it's too many men. My question is, name them. Well, a lot of them are here. America, you know, I hate it. Anyway, I actually have two questions. Number one, have you spent a lot of time in America? That's not the question. But that is a question.

[Gina Martin]

That's the third bonus question. No. Some mum and dad used to live in New York before they had us. So we used to go to New York. But not enough time. No.

[Michael]

Okay, well, from what you know of this, how would you compare the culture with regards to misogyny and the treatment of women to where you live now? You live in Australia.

[Gina Martin]

I live in Australia. Australia is like a very Americanized Britain.

[Co-host]

It's like someone the worst of both worlds.

[Gina Martin]

I know, I moved to the worst of both worlds. No, they took. It's genuinely like when I first moved, I was like, oh, my God, they just took America and the UK and smashed them together. And actually, when you look at the history of how America came to be, that makes a lot of sense. Sorry, Australia. Why Australia came to be. That makes a lot of sense.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Gina Martin]

I think I'm trying to. I'm. I'm someone who tries to make sure I don't answer questions I don't fucking know answers to.

[Michael]

Oh, this is the right show to do that.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah. Like, I'm.

[Michael]

We are not experts at all.

[Gina Martin]

Neither am I in everything. And I'm asked, beautiful to be like, what do you think about this? I'm like, I don't know, because I'm in schools in Australia and I've been to America six times. It's like there's literally no way I could make that analysis. You know, I mean, there's people in so better place to do that. But I would say that, like, misogyny is everywhere and I think it, like, shows up differently on, you know, depending on, like, the cultural context of a place and the historical context of a place and what's politically happening in that moment. There's all kinds of, like, things that feed into that but there's so much similarity across the west in the way that misogyny shows up. Whether that's America, Australia, the uk. Yeah. I don't think anyone's really free of it. And definitely in the west, we have a. That's the kind of massaging that I understand because I've worked, you know, because of the work I do.

[Michael]

Hello, my little bear cubs. We have a new sponsor. And that new sponsor is Better Help. Yes. Better Help is an online resource for therapy.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I don't know who would have guessed it. I don't know if you know about the show, but we're actually very pro therapy around here. Very pro therapy.

[Co-host]

That is the rumor that's going around.

[Michael]

It's helped me a lot.

[Co-host]

Tell me more.

[Michael]

It really has. You don't notice a change in me, Is that what you're saying?

[Co-host]

I do.

[Michael]

Okay, then. Has it helped you?

[Co-host]

Absolutely. I'm in Better Help right now and my therapist is awesome.

[Michael]

Your therapist sounds pretty great. I'm not gonna lie. He.

[Co-host]

Dude, I'm so happy with him. And like whenever we have to reschedule or something changes, it's so easy. It's like literally like two clicks and it's done. I have to call mine Boo.

[Michael]

It's terrible. But here's what I will say. I was always very much an in person therapy kind of set up for myself. Yeah, I'm on telehealth now. Way better.

[Co-host]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[Michael]

Doing therapy like from your couch or like where you're in your space where you're comfortable? Oh, dude, I'm. I'm doing way better.

[Co-host]

That's one of the best parts of Better Help is that I get to do it from my cozy little corner chair.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Dim the lights. I light a candle. It is therapy time.

[Michael]

Yeah. I don't ever want to go back to a therapy office again. So that's where we're at now. Since they are a new sponsor of ours, they were nice enough to give us a little discount code for you to use. So.

[Co-host]

A little treat.

[Michael]

Yeah, if. If you're hearing this, maybe you're in between insurance and you would like to start some therapy or maybe you've never been to therapy and you really want to try it out. Better Help's a really good start. They make it easy to find and pair up with somebody and it's very affordable. So if you want to give it a shot, you can use the discount code they gave us. You can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy or just betterhelp.com and it'll ask you where you heard about it. Choose secondhand therapy. They'll give you 10 off your first month. Try it out. Start your healing journey. Change my life. To change your life.

[Co-host]

I'm changed.

[Michael]

He's changing. Changing. Okay, so with you being. And this might be another hard question to answer, I. I feel a bit dumb asking it, but I'm gonna do. Sounds like you're pretty well traveled.

[Gina Martin]

Relatively, I'd say. Yeah.

[Michael]

Okay, so of all the places you've been to, is there a place that stands out to you where, as a woman, you felt remarkably safer compared to other places?

[Gina Martin]

That's so interesting. Like, I just assumed you're gonna ask the place I felt the least safe, so. That was a really lovely question.

[Michael]

Thank you.

[Gina Martin]

It was nice to. To answer that. I. It's a really sad answer. I don't think I've ever been anywhere where I felt in public, like, just safe, really.

[Michael]

That's why I felt kind of dumb asking it.

[Gina Martin]

That's what I think it's important to ask it. Right. Because it's, like, important for me to reflect on that and even say that. Like, I don't know that I've ever been. Like, there's never been somewhere I've been. Like, this place is for the women. Like, I don't think I've ever felt like that in public. I don't know. Yeah, it's a hard one.

[Michael]

Yeah, that is. That is sad. I feel sad.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, me too. I feel like I'm very. I have a lot of safety in my life. Lots of emotional safety, psychological safety. A lot of safe people. I have a very beautiful safe. I don't know my family, like, it's just like, too. They're just too good. So I'm very lucky to have all that. But places. Yeah, I've not felt that safe in that many places.

[Michael]

Have you always had the instinct of picking the people in your life that give you safety, or is that something you had to learn?

[Gina Martin]

I've often had. I've always had the instinct. I've got, like, an extraordinary. We talk about. You hear people talk about privilege a lot. We don't talk about the privilege of having very safe parental figures in your life who also love each other. Like my mum and dad love each other. Man. Like, they. And they're like play. They're like friends. Like, that's like. I grew up with that. So I think I had a really. A relatively healthy internal model for what relationship should look like. And I've picked, like, My friends. I've had this, like. I don't know. Like, my friends are, like, just very. Everyone's very, like. All my relationships are relatively. They're, like, vulnerable and, like, quite connected and, like, loving and playful, and they're quite. It's quite wholesome, I feel like, about my relationships, I haven't had to learn that because I didn't have to unlearn something, you know, Like, I just kind of saw that growing up. Yeah.

[Michael]

I'm so jaded in my head. When you said, my parents really love each other, I was like, no, they don't. It's a show.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, of course. Of course.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Gina Martin]

It is rare. Like, when I was a kid, I didn't think that was rare.

[Michael]

And.

[Gina Martin]

And as I grew up, I was like, fuck, that's rare that my mum. I go home and they're, like, playing. They're, like, having a laugh and playing with each other. Like, that's the environment I grew up, and that's really rare.

[Michael]

Well, good for you.

[Gina Martin]

I know. Fuck you.

[Michael]

Thanks for coming on.

[Co-host]

That was fun.

[Gina Martin]

I'll tell you about hard times. Let me tell you about all the hard times.

[Co-host]

Your newest work, this, like, this book that you just put out, Loving and Hating Men.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I'm curious about the emotions behind that work. Is it. Because, just from, like, the title, you would assume anger. But it can't all be anger. Right. It has to be some grief in there. There has to be some. There's quiet emotions in there.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

What do you think is the. Is. Is the. Is that major emotion behind that work?

[Gina Martin]

My God, why did I write.

[Michael]

I'm gonna say. Okay, good question. Oh, thank you. It's a good question.

[Gina Martin]

I love the affirmation. Well, I think Ang. Well, anger is a secondary emotion, right. Like, anger comes up because there's something already there. It's like, the feel for me, and I think for a lot of people, it's like the. The feeling that's, like, easier to feel than the thing that's behind it. Right.

[Michael]

So mine's always hurt.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Like, a lot of times I'm angry. I'm always hurt.

[Gina Martin]

Right. Like, I'm. I'm often, like, fearful or, like, there's a lot of grief, I'd say, in my feelings towards this work and, like, why I'm doing it and, like, the experiences I've had that led me to do it and the experiences of women that I love that have led me to do it. Like, there's a lot of grief there, probably. But I think this project I wrote. I wrote to hate and love men because I was like, I was just seeing, like, a very strong polarity and, like, masculinity movements happening. Women should be, like, showing up for men in that way and go and help them. Or, like, just loads of people being like, fudge, men. Fucking don't give a shit. Men are trash. And I was like, cool. Neither of those are, like, helpful. So let's, like, have a conversation about the middle bit. Like, where's the nuances in this? Because I wanted. And I want to offer that to a lot of the women that reach out to me and followed my work or needed my work to be like, hey, it's okay to have feelings of hatred or anger towards a community that continue to harm you. It's also okay to be able to hold the reality that you fucking love men too, and you believe in them and you believe that men can grow and there's loads of great men, you know, and those. All of those things can coexist at the same time. You don't have to pick a fucking side. Because social media isn't real life. Kind of like this work. That's not a politic. It's not a politic to be like, actually, I'm fuck men. Or be like, actually, I think everyone, like, infantilized men to be like, they can't do their own work. Because I know many great men who are doing all that work. So let's have a conversation about how we can hold all of that complexity. And I wanted to write a book that recognized that women are holding and marginalized people are holding a lot of complexity in being able to navigate all these changes that are happening in terms of gender relations and everything we're seeing, like, that's a lot. So I think the main emotion, because I haven't asked you a question, because I was like, I'll think about it. Because that'll be nicer than feeling what you've asked me. Yeah, I think like, oh, what's the emotion? Maybe it's like, maybe I should have known that before I wrote the book. I think maybe it's like, what's the emotion when someone's people are arguing and you can see from both sides and you're like, I just want you guys to be okay. What's that emotion? That's the emotion with the book. It's like, I'm like, it's like childhood.

[Co-host]

Is that the emotion?

[Michael]

Yeah, that's the. That you're describing our parents that we saw growing up. Okay, yeah. But I think, yeah, I think that sounds like empathy to me.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, maybe empathy. Maybe there's a bit of, like, fear in there. Like, this isn't going to be okay if we can't find a way to be nuanced here and work together with this. Like, maybe there's a bit of unsafe. I feel a lot of my work comes from the fact that I feel unsafe. I do a lot of this work. My therapist has helped me realize that. Is that, like, I was like, oh, I'm doing this because I am super passionate about it. She was like, yeah. And then after four years of work, we also realized it's also because I feel really unsafe, and it helps me feel like I'm less. I'm more safe if I do this work. So I think this. The book is a bit. That it's a bit like, maybe. Maybe there's a bit cathartic for you.

[Michael]

It sounds like.

[Gina Martin]

Yes, it's cathartic. There's a bit of desperation. Actually, there was a bit of desperation.

[Co-host]

In why I read that book.

[Gina Martin]

A bit of, like, I really need us to understand that this is complex and it's okay. Like, we can both. We can both lovingly and compassionately hold men accountable in our lives and ask men to work on this thing. And at the same time, we can believe in their growth and we can hold people accountable and we can explain things and not justify them. Like, we can do all of these things. Let's talk about how we do that as a community, because there's space for that. So I think there's desperation there. Maybe that's probably what it was.

[Michael]

Interesting. Desperation.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's interesting. I never think of desperation as a. Like, an emotion, but that makes a lot of sense to me.

[Co-host]

Yeah. Especially if somebody is fearful or feeling unsafe. That desperation of, like, wanting it to be better or wanting to fix it in order to feel safe.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

That makes sense.

[Gina Martin]

And there's a lot.

[Michael]

I feel sad again.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, well, all the time. There's also a lot of empathy in that. There's a lot of, like, hope. There's desperation, but there's, like, empathy and hope there. There's, like, I understand why we all are struggling with this, but, like, I believe that this can be better. And I think there's. I think this work is a lot about traversing all of that, like, what you're feeling. Like, that sadness of being like everything's fucked, that despair, and always being able to, like, be okay with feeling that and also feel, like, a level of hope and belief in Building something better, like, that's a really hard thing to navigate. But you have to feel both all the way through this work, because it's all about those things.

[Michael]

Do you always feel hopeless, or is it something you have to search for sometimes?

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. No, I don't. Like, I, I, it would be weird. I wouldn't be engaging with the realities of what this work asks me to engage with. If I always felt hope, I'd be really, I'd be like, are you doing this right if you feel hope all the time? Like, because the things I have to engage with are really heartbreaking and sad. But I. There's also, like, so much hope in this. Like, the act of doing this work means that I get access to so many other people who, like, really deeply understand this stuff and are doing this work. Like, I know people who have, like, stopped, like, oil fields in the North Sea. Like, they're my friends. I know some of the people on the Freedom Flotilla. Like, I know people who are going in and doing frontline work with sexual assault survivors. I know, you know, like, I know people who do this work every day. And I'm like, there's this decentralized group of people who are just, like, committing their lives to making this thing better every day. And it works. It might. It's not about a zero sum game. It's not like, we end the thing, we stop all misogyny and we, you know, of course that's never gonna happen, but, like, the impact you can have on a person's life can change their life. Like, genuinely, those frontline workers, the workshops, the law change. When someone can actually use the law to protect themselves, I just make happen, like, those things change people's worlds and, like, that's enough, you know? And, like, if you can do that for enough people or you can create enough momentum, there's so much hope in that. So I get to see that all the time. So I think there's a lot of hope that's created that I get to see. And then the work that I do creates hope for other people. And I think it's like, hope is more of, like, a community action than it is, like, this kind of nebulous thing I'm, like, constantly trying to hold on to. It's like, I see it as we all create for each other and we all sustain each other by doing that because the work needs to be done kind of thing.

[Michael]

I'm going to ask you a question because I tend to operate usually from a point of pessimism. When you have an experience with somebody and you can see that you didn't make an impact, is that. Is that defeating? Or do you. Are you able to understand that's just part of the process or something else?

[Gina Martin]

No, that's defeating. That's the human response to that. Like, I do workshops and I, you know, more of the workshops I do are not the one I had yesterday where I come out of it and I'm like, Like, that was so. Like, most of them are. I'm like, did they get anything from that? Well, they'll be boys and they'll like, I've had boys say, like, fuck, shit. I've had boys make rape jokes about me in workshops and, like, pass around notes about me. All kinds of stuff. Oh, my God, like, in those moments, or like, they're so tapped out or they're so apathetic. The apathy really gets me. That, like, couldn't give a fuck thing. And yeah, that's in that moment and on that day, like, yeah, I feel defeated. I'm also lucky enough to have done, like, a lot of training around trauma therapy, like, trauma informed training training, and like, some psychotherapy and like, stuff for working with kids. So I also am always like, what's going on with that child? Like, why is this child so pathetic? Why is this child so angry? Why is this child so, like, there's something. There's reasons for all of that. Right. I can't always understand.

[Michael]

Yeah, that's what I was going to ask, what your instinctual explanation is for apathy like that. It sounds like it's got to be environment.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, there's a lot of reasons for apathy. I think apathy makes a lot of sense in the society we live into. I think it's very painful to engage with the reality of the society we live in and what's happening and what systems we live in and what's happening to people. And it's hard for people to engage with how they feel. It's hard for us to face ourselves for a multitude of different reasons. So it's really hard to then zoom out and be like, oh, my God, all of this is, what the fuck are we meant to do? You feel powerless, right? Apathy is a protect. It can be a really protective thing because it can be like, I don't have to. I'll just do my little thing. I'll live my little life. I don't care. Because to care is to feel. Sometimes to feel is really painful. Like, it's easier not to. So I Think apathy serves a function to make a lot of people more comfortable, and I don't blame them for that. But with young people, although young people that I've worked with and I continue to work with, there's just so much going on for them. Hey, like, they're just. They are. There's a lot of apathy, I think, because they live in essentially like a relatively surveillance state. Like they are in school like we were, but they are in school with social media where literally anything that they do or say at any point could be like, broadcast to everyone. And they are terrified of judgment to a degree. That maybe was the same in school when I was there, but I was a child and I didn't have the skills, so I don't know, I can't remember.

[Michael]

But.

[Gina Martin]

But they are. The apathy is very much just don't give anything because I'm safer if I just don't give anything. If I don't care about anything, you can't hurt me. Like, there's a lot of that in classrooms, and I don't blame them for that, but it makes it really hard to engage them in the work then.

[Michael]

Yeah, it's almost a coping mechanism.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah. Say that again.

[Michael]

I was. It sounds like the apathy is almost a coping mechanism.

[Gina Martin]

I think it is for a lot of. It is for a lot of adults. It is for a lot of people. Yeah. It's a. You. You shut down because you're like, this is too much to think about and deal with. I'm scared. I don't feel safe thinking about all this.

[Michael]

Are you taking maka yet?

[Co-host]

I. I am, and it's pretty cool.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

I'm only on day three.

[Michael]

Yeah. Which one are you taking? You on the black. Yeah, I do the black too. I do the black and I do the tri blend.

[Co-host]

Oh, you do two.

[Michael]

I do two.

[Co-host]

Okay.

[Michael]

Technically three, because the blend is a blend of three. Okay, well, so if you don't know about maca, it is a root native to Peru. It grows in three colors. Black, red, and yellow. Or yellow. Or yellow. Yellow or yellow. I take the black and I take the tri blend. My girl takes the red and you take the black.

[Co-host]

I do.

[Michael]

Typically, yeah. Men take the black, women take the red, and then you intersperse the tribalin. But it has a lot of benefits. I've been taking it daily for a little over a year. I have noticed a lot mood, skin, hair, energy, if you heard testosterone, you know, libido.

[Co-host]

I've had a lot of improvements. Yeah.

[Michael]

All true. And we get. Well, I get our. I get my maca. And I have been from a company called the Maca Team. They are the biggest supplier of genuine maca from Peru. The biggest supplier in America. And they are nice enough to partner with. Partner with us and give a discount code. If you want to try out MACA, you can go to the MACA team.com secondhand therapy and you can use code bear cub for 10% off.

[Co-host]

Ooh, fancy.

[Michael]

So yeah, if you want to try some maca, try it out, dudes. Try the black ladies. Try the red or try the try. But at least go to the website, read about it, see if you might want to do it. It's not pharmaceutical. It's all natural. I've been taking it for over a year. I like it. You're three days in, you're less annoying. So we did it.

[Co-host]

We did it.

[Michael]

Themaka team.com Secondhand therapy. Check it out.

[Co-host]

Hey, if you're tired of hearing these ads, which I'm sure you are, you should head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to episodes. You could be hearing this a week early along with Exit, along with access to an entirely different podcast. Some would say a better one called the other shit show.

[Michael]

It is fun.

[Co-host]

It's non therapy related.

[Michael]

It is fun.

[Co-host]

Super fun. Plus you have early access. It is fun to my new podcast series Happy not funny. And it's ad free episodes on that as well. Merch discounts. Also fun live show things where we interact with the audience.

[Michael]

Live streams is what he's trying to say. We are not going on tour.

[Co-host]

Yeah, that's true. What did I say?

[Michael]

You said live shows.

[Co-host]

Well, same same. You know, it's like a live show. Nope, it's like a zoom.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Co-host]

Anyways, you'll have access to us in a more intimate manner.

[Michael]

Intimate.

[Co-host]

How about that?

[Michael]

Intimate. There's no end.

[Co-host]

Yeah, like the candidate. Like the candies.

[Michael]

Intimate.

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Also, if you sign up, you get a little treat.

[Co-host]

Oh yeah.

[Michael]

So check out the different tiers. One of the tiers is just if you're just here for secondhand therapy, you want no ads, we'll send you a dope little sticker. And I'm gonna be honest with you, a lot of time went into designing this sticker. Yeah, too much. You could argue too much dope sticker though. So if you sign up for that tier, we'll send you a sticker. The next tier. If you want the other podcast, if you want the bonus stuff from Secondhand Therapy, all The little extras. You get the sticker and we are going to send you a signed print designed by yours truly. That took way too much time. Still, way too much time. We'll sign it, we'll send it out to you, and then we have the top tier with the live streams. If you want to hang out with us a couple times a month, you get the sticker, the print, and we'll send you a T shirt that we are not selling or getting anywhere else. So check out Patreon. If you sign up, you get some treats and it's a good way to support the podcast.

[Co-host]

We'll see you over there.

[Michael]

Thanks.

[Co-host]

We just were talking with this abortion activist and one of the disconnects she was having sounds similar to the disconnect that's happening with you is like, how do we get not only young men, but grown men to give a. About women's issues and women's safety and things like that? Like, how do we talk to. How do we. Is it a language thing? Is it an experience thing? Like, how do we connect the dots for these men.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Co-host]

And boys?

[Gina Martin]

That's a great question. Trying to think how we do in our work. How do we get. We had a. We have a workshop that we do where we talk about women and girls experiences and get boys and men to explore that and like empathize and be curious about that and wondering. Thinking about how we do that. It's not a very attractive or seductive strategy to. To try and get someone to care about something happening for someone else that they'll never experience. Like, they understand why they should in theory do that, but it's not very motivating. It doesn't really. It's like it should be, sure. But it's not. It just practically. That doesn't happen. People care about things when they have emotional experience or they go through something or. Or affects them in some way, whether that's nature or that's growing up in the systems and capitalism that we've grown up in, in a very individualized society. I don't know because I'm not that smart, but like, there's a. That's how it goes a lot of the time. And there's something very powerful about getting people to be able to connect their struggle to the other one. Do you know what I mean? Like, yeah, yesterday we were talking about gender stereotypes in the workshop. And the workshops aren't a place where we speak. We do a speech. Like we have it's conversations with young people, but the boys were talking about the expectations placed on them in masculinity and we kind of went through what they were. And when they've understood that and they understand the bits that they agree with and the bits they want to get rid of, and maybe they start to understand, oh, that's why we do this. And that's why I. I always feel like I can't say this to my mates because I know my mate's going to make a gay joke and then I'm going to be like, oh, like, when they start to apply it practically to their lives and then, especially if they start to practice it in the room and their mates affirm them, if they start to be a bit vulnerable or they'll be a bit honest and the mates get around them and they have an emotional experience, then there's value in that. Okay, I understand what that means. It's no longer just on a whiteboard now it's like, I can see how that lives in me. When they've done that, it's easier to introduce what the female stereotypes are because it's like they can understand how a stereotype can impact a person because they've already explored that. And then they can start to understand how the male expectations or stereotypes. So don't be vulnerable, be strong, be dominant, get girls. All that kind of stuff impacts girls and women. It takes away a level of defensiveness because they've had an experience where they understand it. So now they can start to apply that to something else and they can. You can give them a bit of space for them to start to make connections of. Like, oh, the thing that I'm the male stereotype, which causes me problems, is also causing problems for women and girls. But if I just got them into a room and went, hey, don't do it. Like, you should care about women and girls problems because it's causing issues. They wouldn't listen. Like, right, you have to. I think you have to connect people's experiences to the other experience. So when we talk about abortions, like, I always want to be like, talk to men about relationships and sexuality and like, how do you benefit from abortions? And what would have happened if you. If you and your partner hadn't been able to access an abortion or. And then be able to talk about that and then talk about the woman's experience and talk about the inequality there. But, like, make sure that it's. It's inclusive of everyone's experience because you get much more of a. I can connect to that now than if I just went, you should care about women's experiences. And here's why. You're like, great, that's information. But I don't feel anything from information. Like, Right. You know what I'm saying? No, yeah.

[Co-host]

No, it's just. Yeah, that goes back to the apathy thing. It's like, how do you. How do you fix the apathy?

[Gina Martin]

And the apathy is deep. The apathy is deeper than. We can't. We can't use information to fix apathy. We can't use no people. Really, we have to fix the very deep things that are happening in our society. Like, really, it comes down to those, like, structural, systemic things. People are struggling. People's lives are hard. People are struggling economically, they're struggling emotionally. They're socialized into not feeling a lot. They are dealing with trauma. Like, there's so much happening for people that that means that apathy is going to take hold because it's easier. Right. And that's why, like, that's where you get real complex and it gets too deep because it's like this work always goes back to, like, all that stuff, which is, you know, can't just have a conversation with someone's change. I mean, you have to go and try and change laws and change systems and make society better for people and make it a. Well, a place to live. And it gets very, very deep and complex there.

[Michael]

I think you said something that stuck out to me in that it was along the lines of, it's hard to get somebody to care about something that they'll never experience themselves. Something like that. And I had an experience recently with my. With my partner in our home. And I mean, a very innocuous thing. Like, let's tell you what happened. That's what we'll do. So we were in the kitchen and I just, like, smacked her on the butt, but kind of hard. And like, for me, like, oh, we're being playful. But she had a. Like an emotional reaction to it. And like, she and I talked about it. We worked it out. But I was talking about it in therapy and my therapist asked me if I have ever in my life felt like I could be overpowered. And I haven't. And even though my partner. I know she feels safe with me, like, her nervous system, what happened to her is that somebody did something to her body that she wouldn't be able to stop if I was somebody else. And, yeah, so when you said, it's hard to change apathy for something you're never going to experience, I thought of my therapist saying, like, yeah, I most likely will never Experience the fear of being overpowered by somebody. I'm a very large man, so, like. Yeah.

[Gina Martin]

Interesting.

[Michael]

Mmm.

[Gina Martin]

You've never had that.

[Michael]

Yeah, like, I've never worried about somebody. I've never worried about somebody doing something to me that I couldn't stop. That's. That's never been a thought in my head. And, like, the fact that half of the world exists with that fear anytime they're awake is something that I never will be able to comprehend.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I want to be able to comprehend it, but I can't. Like, there's no way for me to be able to. I. I don't know what that feels like.

[Co-host]

Well, you got to go to jail for a little bit, and then you come out, bro, I'll be the biggest.

[Michael]

I'll be the biggest in there.

[Co-host]

What do you.

[Michael]

But, yeah, to your point. Exactly. It would have to be a, like, massive change of circumstance for me. Yeah.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It's not my existence.

[Gina Martin]

The difference between, like. Yeah, like, when you said that she. Yeah, like, we know because, like, we know it in our bodies as well. Like, I think it's like, there's a difference between logically knowing something. Like, I intellectually and academically know this thing. Like, when you. You guys have. Hopefully you felt this. Otherwise, I'm a weirdo. But in therapy, you know that thing where, like, therapists will say something and you're like, yes, I know that, but I don't know that. Like, I'm like, yeah, I know, but I can't feel that yet. Like. Like, it hasn't integrated somewhat yet. The experience of being a woman in the world is like, such an integrated sense. Like, felt sense of unsafety. It's not. I think sometimes people think it's like we're walking around being like, I'm thinking in my head I'm unsafe. It's not. It's like that nervous system body just never really feel on a level, like, safe because you could always be overpowered or something could happen to you. And your point, equally to understand that to the extent that you'd maybe want to, it would have to be more than just, like, I intellectually know that's true. Like, you can. You will never be able to feel that, you know, like. Or have a felt experience that, like, changes the way your body. You feel in your body, in the world about that. And that's the hard thing. You can't access that, so you can't ever really understand it on that. That body level. It's more just. I know that's true. Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. And I. I do wonder if. Because I. I mean, I. I do consider myself a feminist and I do consider myself a safe man.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

For women to be around. And I still wonder if my inability to fully understand that, what we're just talking about, if that does stunt my ability to be the man that I think I am being. So I guess what I'm trying to ask you is what in your opinion. You made it clear none of us are experts here. In your opinion, what can I'm going to say? Me, Any. Any man but myself. Me, I consider myself a safe man. I consider myself a feminist. What can I ask myself or reflect upon to understand any ways that I am still perpetuating an unsafe culture?

[Gina Martin]

Michael's ready. Great question.

[Michael]

It was long winded, but I got there.

[Co-host]

Yeah, you went the Michael way, but we got there.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, I love.

[Michael]

I love.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, it's a great. Well, the question is important, right? Just asking the question is important and not asking it once, but it being like something that you always come back to. It's like. It's something I do as a white woman. Can't ever understand what it would be like to have my opportunities and my movement through the world and how I'm treated, defined by my skin color. I can't ever understand that. It's like trying to see out my elbow. Like, I'll never be able to understand that. But, like, me asking that question all the time is part of it. It's like, how can I make sure that. Yeah. I'm not. My inability to access that isn't stunting my ability to be like a safe or a comfortable white person or a white person who's doing the work or is showing up in a way that is always aware.

[Michael]

Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it?

[Co-host]

Oh, my God.

[Michael]

Are you?

[Co-host]

Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybody else. Sure.

[Michael]

Okay. All right, well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone.

[Co-host]

Okay?

[Michael]

Okay. It's called the light phone.

[Co-host]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[Michael]

The light. Yeah, you've seen me use it. The light phone. Also known some people call it a dumb phone. Anyway, it's a smartphone. It has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation. It has a calendar and a flashlight.

[Co-host]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[Michael]

Kinda.

[Co-host]

Oof. Yeah, I love that.

[Michael]

And it has a pretty cool camera too. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got A dope camera on it. It's got a camera. Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough, they sent us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone three, use code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[Co-host]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[Michael]

Stop your doom scrolling. Be more present in life. Link down below. Promo code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world.

[Gina Martin]

Can you say the last five words of the question? Because there was a way that you articulated that I.

[Michael]

There's not a chance I could do it in five, but the. The ballpark of what I was asking is, what can I ask myself or any man?

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

As someone who considers themselves a safe man and a feminist, what can I ask myself or reflect upon to realize what I could still be doing to perpetuate unsafe culture?

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Or places in the world or anything.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah. Yeah. I think the questions that I always hope men are asking and want to encourage men to ask are both about themselves and about the system they live in. I think if we just stop at ourselves, we miss out on a whole load of understanding. So say like, okay, if you understand yourself in the way that you go, okay, well, I know the family I was raised in, so now I'm understanding a bunch of the ways I show up or the ways I understand relationships or the ways I see things. That's like huge understanding. Right. But if you can understand some of the systems that people grow up in, you then understand even more around why your family is the way it is or why people outside of that are the way they are or the kind of rules and expectations that they might be living up to that led your dad to maybe partly show up in this way, which then. So there's even like, there's more layers of understanding to the system bit. And I think I always want. I always not want, but I would love men to ask more questions about the system they live in as well as ask questions about themselves. So understanding the patriarchy and understanding the ways in which society is set up is so, like, illuminating for this type of work of understanding how you show. Because so hard to articulate this. But like the men I know that the safest men, and not just safe men, but men who I'm like, oh, the way you move is actually disrupting the thing. It's even gone past safe and it's become like the way you move and treat people and the questions you ask and the way you are is kind of actually, in the gentlest way disrupting the kind of harmful norms of patriarchy or what men can be like. Are the men who not only understand themselves, but they also understand the way that patriarchy has shaped them or the way that gender expectations have shaped their masculinity. Because our masculinity as men or femininity, for me, as a woman, is a huge part of why we are the way we are. We have been taught so much about how we should speak, act, show up in a relationship because of gender. And so if you can understand that system as well as reflect on yourself, I think that that really allows you to integrate stuff in a way that you become an even safer person. And you start to. It starts to become natural for you to, like, identify it in the world. You start seeing things and you're like, oh, that's happening. Because that makes sense. Because actually, you know, I've connected all these dots around gender. I've connected all these dots around history. I can see why men are told this, this and this. Right. Well, I can see that playing out here, or I could see that playing out with my dad, or I could see that playing out with and. And it starts to become natural and you start to. To both have a bit of compassion for yourself, because it's not just on you. Systems also have created something here, but you also, you. You can like, move in a way that it's not hyper individual. It's like you understand more than just yourself. And I think that makes you a safer person. Yeah, It's a really, really inarticulate, long way of saying it, but I think men who ask questions about themselves and patriarchy and masculinity are probably some of the safest men that I've worked with and know. Yeah.

[Michael]

So I'm already doing it. That's what I heard.

[Co-host]

Hashtag, killing it already.

[Michael]

I heard no room for improvement.

[Gina Martin]

Oh, I immediately felt safe. I have to leave.

[Co-host]

I. I wanted to go back to something as well. When we were talking about the work that you're doing with the book, and we were. We got into hope and empathy and words like that and emotions like that makes me think of.

[Michael]

Does it make you.

[Co-host]

It does make me. I'm just kidding. Go ahead. Cunt.

[Gina Martin]

Hang on.

[Michael]

That language is perpetuating.

[Gina Martin]

What was that?

[Michael]

Bad things.

[Co-host]

Listen, mate. That's what we say around here, dude.

[Michael]

Mate is such a cool word.

[Co-host]

It's a banger. I can't pull it off.

[Michael]

I know. What do we have here, bro?

[Co-host]

We have broken dumb.

[Michael]

God, we're dumb. Go ahead. Sorry.

[Co-host]

So we're talking about hope and empathy and things like that with the work that you're doing, which makes me think of the word.

[Michael]

Yeah. He has no control over his feelings. It's all on everybody else.

[Gina Martin]

Oh, I see. Oh I see. I see what's happening. Yeah. Okay.

[Co-host]

Forgiveness.

[Gina Martin]

Okay.

[Co-host]

What does, does forgiveness play a role in any of this or have you found it in there?

[Gina Martin]

Oh God. No one's.

[Co-host]

Not only for like maybe men, but the institutions or even yourself in this journey that you've been on, saving the world.

[Gina Martin]

Every question's so good. And I'm like, thank you. You're so welcome. But like, I'm like, how do I. I've got to go to therapy about that question now and I want to do. Let's just do that for an hour. You know.

[Michael]

We got all night, all morning for you.

[Gina Martin]

What time is it there?

[Michael]

It is almost 8:00pm oh, it is almost 8:00pm Tuesday night. It's Wednesday morning for you.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

All right. Don't tell us what happens.

[Gina Martin]

Okay. Oh my God. Hahaha. I said that every time I speak. 21 Nice. Yes. Forgiveness. I have, I have a very complex relationship with forgiveness for myself.

[Michael]

Some might say the most important forgiveness.

[Gina Martin]

Some might say I probably would have said years ago, like, yeah, yeah, I'm good at forgiveness for myself because I was super unaware of myself. And also I was, I'm quite, I have a level of high self regard but low self worth. Me and my friend talk about this a lot. I'm like, I've got high self regard. I'm like, I would be friends with myself if I wasn't myself. I think I'm a relatively compassionate, thoughtful person. I have low self worth though, in some ways. So I think the forgiveness thing is a bit hard. There's lots of ways I've done this work that I as I've grown, I wouldn't do it that way again. And I really struggle to accept mistakes I've made or ways I've done work that in a way that I don't respect now I'm like, oh God, I beat myself up for that stuff.

[Michael]

You still do that presently?

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of my work with my therapist is around like being okay with growing and like I'm like, but I need to have it all right and not be harm anyone. And like I can't do this work if I'M like, at any point, I accidentally harm anyone. Like, I'm a piece of shit. And she's like, oh, you're a human being doing this work, and it's really good work, and you have to learn as you go. And I'm like, shut up. I don't pay you to tell me the truth. You know, like, oh, can't. That's too hard for the homework, for therapy. I can't do that kind of stuff. That's too hard. So I really struggle with that still. I don't struggle as much. I don't struggle with compassion for people. Like, I don't even struggle. I have compassion for people who have done, really. And because I. Because I. Because of all the understanding of systems and stuff, I just think I understand why no one is born. Born misogynistic. Like, no one is born racist. Like, I think hold them accountable. Have to have repair conversations, have to make sure that if harm has occurred, there is accountability and there is repair. Like, I believe in that. But I also have a lot of compassion for kind of everyone I come into contact with. But forgiveness is different to compassion, isn't it?

[Co-host]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yes.

[Gina Martin]

How is it different?

[Michael]

I would say it's, well, compassion. I think forgiveness is more rooted in acceptance and a release of control.

[Gina Martin]

Oh, no, I can't do that.

[Co-host]

Then I was just gonna say acceptance. Yeah, yeah. Release of control is interesting for forgiveness.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I think because accepting. Accepting one thing to me and you guys, I would love to hear your thoughts. Is different than accepting it and then letting go of it.

[Co-host]

Hmm.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah. When I think about forgiveness and the way that the people I look to in this work, like my North Stars in this work have talked about forgiveness, that does reflect. That letting go of control does reflect how they speak, like bell hooks or like, the way they speak about forgiveness is like, as much for you and your ability to, like, let something lie and let something go and release all the feelings around it as it is for the other person too, which feels like a letting go of control. You don't have to manage it. You'd have to manage your own feelings. You have managed them. That feels. Maybe that's. That resonates for me.

[Michael]

I did it again.

[Co-host]

Oh, my God.

[Michael]

No room for improvement, baby. The worst.

[Gina Martin]

I can't. I can't.

[Michael]

What do you.

[Gina Martin]

I can't completely. I can't forgive. Like, I can't forgive collectively. Let's say that, like, I can't look at groups of people who. I struggle to forgive, men collectively, for what they've built I have compassion understanding around it, but I really struggle at the same time. I understand, I know what's happened, but I really struggle. Like, I'm angry and there's a lot of grief around that. Like, so maybe I haven't. I can't access forgiveness yet because there's too much grief and anger around that or frustration at what, what's been built or what's happened to me.

[Michael]

I mean, I truly think that the fact that even that you're able to access compassion is pretty impressive to me because men have. We haven't been doing a good job at nearly anything, especially when you factor in how it is affects women. So the fact that you can access compassion for me is remarkable.

[Gina Martin]

Yeah, it's. It can be tricky sometimes, but it feels important because I don't know if you, if your response to that harm that's been caused. If our response is a community of women, it's like, so generalizing because there's all different women of all different, you know, backgrounds and sexuality and experiences and whatever. It's not a centralized movement, but if you look at like, the feminist movement in one pocket, where, you know, in the UK or whatever, you go like, okay, the response to, to mend as a collective and what they've built is to be like, you actually, you're all, let's do something better. It's like, I can understand that response, but I don't know that that works. I don't know that's as useful. And I also don't know that meeting the, the inequality with like, without compassion will do much. Like, I almost think, like, the best movements that have worked have had compassion at the root of them. Been able to like, invite people in and meet somewhere and that. And you need compassion for that because you can't connect without that. You know, Like, I couldn't walk into a room of boys in a workshop and hold them and meet them where they're at and hold them in where they are. Without compassion, like, I'd probably. It might be more comfortable for me to be like, fuck, those boys are all fucked. Like, that made me feel good for a moment, but it's not going to get me anywhere in the world.

[Co-host]

Look.

[Michael]

Nah. One of the things I'm working on in therapy is meeting people where they are. And you saying, to meet somebody where they are requires. Requires compassion. Well, that's unfortunate.

[Gina Martin]

How do you feel about that sounds?

[Michael]

I don't like it. I don't like it.

[Gina Martin]

You don't like it?

[Michael]

It's. It's just way easier for me if everybody can just figure out it out, you know?

[Gina Martin]

Of course.

[Michael]

But that's not real.

[Gina Martin]

That's not about you. Yeah, we're all thinking that about each other.

[Michael]

Okay, you don't know what anybody's thinking about me. Let's start there.

[Gina Martin]

No, you're right. You. You probably are the only person in the world that no one's like, I hope he figures out.

[Michael]

She gets it.

[Co-host]

You have not seen our comment section.

[Michael]

And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.