Vulnerability Not Allowed | #093

Summary

Podcast Summary: Secondhand Therapy

Episode #093 – Vulnerability Not Allowed

Hosts: Travis, Elise, Morgan
Date: August 4, 2025

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Overview

This episode of Secondhand Therapy explores the theme of vulnerability—or, more accurately, how it’s discouraged or mishandled in families and relationships. Through their signature blend of humor and heartfelt reflection, hosts Travis, Elise, and Morgan unpack their own attachment histories, discuss the impact of emotional repression, and candidly wrestle with what it means to allow oneself (and others) to be vulnerable. The conversation journeys through therapy insights, childhood conditioning, and generational habits around emotion, revealing both the dysfunction and the hopeful potential for change.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT)

• Travis shares his experience with EFT and introduces attachment history questions from his therapist.

  “She gave me a little intro... she basically asked me a list of attachment questions and—well, it was uncomfortable, wasn’t it?” – Travis (05:13)

• Elise jokes about thinking all therapy was emotionally focused, not knowing about EFT specifically.

2. Family Conditioning Around Vulnerability

• First Attachment Question: “What did you learn from your family about being emotional and vulnerable?”
  • Elise: “Oh, that it wasn’t allowed. That’s an easy one.” (07:16)
  • Both hosts agree their families discouraged vulnerability, usually by sweeping emotions under the rug or using humor to deflect.
• Elise’s Reflection: As a child, only crying once a year was a “badge of honor.” Now, frequent crying is seen as healthier—a shift driven by therapy and self-acceptance.
• Suppressing Sadness and Showing Anger:
  • Travis: “The only emotions I remember being okay to show was anger or frustration. You don’t be disrespectful, but you can be angry and frustrated... Sad? I was too embarrassed...”
• Embarrassment Around Joy:
  • Travis confesses feeling annoyed by other people’s joy, recognizing it as a learned defense (11:09):

    “You know how shitty that is to get annoyed at someone else’s excitement?... I was that guy for a long time and I hate that that was a part of my life.”

3. Navigating Envy vs. Social Norms

• Elise recounts a TikTok of a woman singing joyfully on a train, admitting she felt irrational irritation:
  • “My blood was boiling. I was like, why would you do this?” (12:24)
• Travis and Elise unpack whether this reaction is about social rules or hidden jealousy of uninhibited self-expression.
  • Travis admits: “If I’m honest... I’m jealous that that person is so free and unembarrassed... I think I’m being a hater…” (14:50–15:21)

4. How Families Respond to Hurt

• Attachment Question: “When you were hurt, who did you turn to?”
  • Elise’s Experience:
    • For minor hurts: Mom/grandma offered “infinite coddling.”
    • For tragedies: Emotional support shut down—“nothing we can do about it, so let’s move on.”
    • Travis and Elise note this compartmentalization (“Those are different hurts”—Elise, 20:03) influences how they process pain as adults.
• Travis’ Perspective: His mother responded to emotional hurt with problem-solving questions, encouraging self-reliance and sometimes assigning blame for not protecting possessions or feelings: “What did you do? Would be the question.” (25:04)
• Both reflect on how these patterns shaped their sense of consequences, entitlement, and self-advocacy.

5. Avoidance and Embarrassment About Seeking Help

• Travis reveals that by middle school, he turned to no one for emotional support due to embarrassment and fear of rejection (27:17–27:57):

  “I can sit with this alone or I can go be rejected by my mom. Which do I want to do?... I’ll deal with it on my own so at least I don’t have to get rejected and feel like shit over there.”

6. Masculinity, Conflict, Suppression

• Travis and Elise discuss physical conflict and the gendered expectation to “tough it out.”
• Elise shares a story of being told by his dad to go back and win a fight before being allowed home (34:05–34:43):

  “Well, go back down there and don’t come back till you win... guess what? Got me again.”

• Both note how their families modeled anger (Travis) and disappointment/silence (Elise) as ways to handle conflict and emotional signals.

7. Reading Parental Emotions: Safety and Hypervigilance

• Attachment Question: “How did you know when a parental figure was angry or sad?”
  • Elise: Her mother used silent treatment, creating feelings of rejection—“that’s how you teach your kids to try to control everybody’s emotions.” (36:15–36:23)
  • Travis: His mother was loud and clear with anger, but sadness or fear were almost never shown: “I’ve seen my mom cry twice.” (47:19)
• Elise describes the almost detective-like effort required to detect her mother’s sadness—“You had to be a bloodhound and sniff it out on her.” (39:11)
• Travis pinpoints the problem with this home dynamic:

  “That’s not normal for a kid to have to navigate in their home... you don’t know, mom’s quiet and you notice that and you have to fix it. Because I’m assuming at that time it felt like a threat.” (40:07–42:06)

8. Defending Parents, Protecting Ourselves

• Travis observes that Elise still actively protects his mother’s image, often justifying or minimizing her emotional unavailability:

  “You’re stating your experience with the intent of not speaking negatively of your mom directly.” (43:19)

• Elise admits, “Yeah, of course I’m protective of her. She’s someone who needs my protection.” (46:08–46:37)
• Travis gently points out that this can distract from self-protection or nurturing one’s own needs.

9. Vulnerability in Adulthood

• Travis discusses his learned embarrassment about expressing fear or vulnerability, rooted in being rejected as a child when showing fear (28:02–28:28).
• Even as an adult, sharing vulnerability remains hard—especially if it isn’t a socially “approved” context (funeral, major event). There’s “way too much shame and embarrassment.” (52:00)
• Using humor as a buffer against raw emotion, Travis admits, is his go-to defense:
  • “Without humor, it’s just vulnerability, and being vulnerable is scary.” (54:43)
• Both agree vulnerability is a strength, not a weakness, though they still struggle to authentically embrace and model it:

  “The strongest people are able to be vulnerable, especially in scary and uncomfortable moments.” – Travis (56:28)

• Travis notes realizing this only in recent years: “I’ve always known the words... but even until a couple years ago, I didn’t embrace it, I didn’t believe it.” (57:13–57:41)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Elise: “I used to be proud that I cried once a year. Like, that used to be, like, a badge of honor. And now I cry once a day.” (08:13)
• Travis: “You know how shitty that is to get annoyed at someone else’s excitement?” (11:09)
• Elise: “My blood was boiling. I was like, why would you do this?” (12:24)
• Travis: “I think I’m being a hater is what it is—I'm like, this idiot, and I'm like: it's pretty cool. I could never. I would never.” (15:16)
• Elise (defensive realization): “I almost said, yeah, of course I’m protective of her. She’s someone who needs my protection.” (46:08)
• Travis: “Without humor, it’s just vulnerability, and being vulnerable is scary.” (54:43)
• Travis: “The strongest people are able to be vulnerable, especially in scary and uncomfortable moments.” (56:28)
• Travis: “It’s not really a destination. It’s something that I’m gonna have to practice for the rest of my life.” (58:16)

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Important Timestamps

• 05:13 – Travis introduces emotionally focused therapy and attachment questions.
• 07:16 – Elise: “Vulnerability wasn’t allowed.”
• 11:09 – Travis on annoyance at joy.
• 12:24–15:21 – TikTok train story; discussion of jealousy toward uninhibited people.
• 20:03 – Elise compartmentalizing different levels of emotional hurt.
• 27:17 – Travis stops turning to anyone for help out of embarrassment.
• 34:05 – Elise: Dad sends him back to fight.
• 36:15–36:23 – Parenting and the silent treatment.
• 39:11 – Reading a parent’s sadness; bloodhound analogy.
• 42:06 – Travis: Home should be a safe emotional space, not a threat.
• 43:19 – Noting Elise’s ongoing protection of his mother’s image.
• 46:08 – Elise admits defensiveness: “She’s someone who needs my protection.”
• 54:43 – Vulnerability without humor is scary.
• 56:28 – Vulnerability as strength.
• 58:16 – Ongoing practice in vulnerability.

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Tone and Style

The episode maintains the hosts’ characteristic blend of wit, irreverence, and raw honesty. There are moments of playful teasing, but also deeply open admissions and gentle confrontations—especially as they challenge each other's (and their own) ingrained behaviors around vulnerability, protection, and emotional openness.

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Takeaway

This episode deconstructs how families suppress or mishandle vulnerability, the lifelong effects of those lessons, and the continued struggle—and hope—in learning to be emotionally open. Far from preachy, it’s a relatable, sometimes hilarious, sometimes poignant deep-dive into why “being real” is so hard, and why, despite it all, the effort to be vulnerable is always worth it.

Transcript

[Travis]

Hello, little bear cubs. This episode of Secondhand Therapy is sponsored by BetterHelp. And, you know, they want us to tell you the benefits of therapy, but it's kind of the show.

[Elise]

Right.

[Travis]

If you listen to us, you know, we're pro therapy. You use Better Help recently? Yes, I have.

[Elise]

I just signed up.

[Travis]

How'd it go?

[Elise]

It's great. I got to pick my own therapist. They have a bunch, like, there's like, two or three pages of people that I got to choose from, and. Yeah, I just started a few sessions ago.

[Travis]

Nice. Have you used their journal feature?

[Elise]

I have not seen that yet, but I'm excited to because I love a digital journal.

[Travis]

Who doesn't love a digital journal? Yeah, we're excited to have them as a new sponsor. You know, you went to BetterHelp because you were in between insurance.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So if you're listening to this and maybe you're in between insurance, maybe you don't have insurance. It's just. It's a good resource to start therapy. And if you listen to the show and you've been wanting to get into therapy and you don't really know where to start, Better Help's a good option, and they were nice enough to give us a discount code. If you guys. If you're listening and you want to start with Better help, go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy and you get 10% off your first month. All the info will be in the episode description below. Get in therapy. You know, it's great.

[Elise]

Check it out.

[Travis]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy.

[Elise]

Welcome.

[Travis]

Welcome.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Here's what's going on. We're not therapists.

[Morgan]

No.

[Travis]

We're not experts.

[Morgan]

No.

[Travis]

This is not a substitute for therapy. This is not professional advice in any way.

[Elise]

No way.

[Travis]

You're gonna hear ads, A lot of them. And I'm gonna be honest with you. It's a lot.

[Elise]

So many.

[Travis]

And we're not doing commercial breaks anymore. They're gonna pop up and fuck your whole goddamn day up. They're gonna scare you, and you're like, why are you doing this? Go to Patreon.

[Elise]

Go to Patreon.

[Travis]

Go to Patreon. Guys.

[Elise]

Head on over there.

[Morgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Travis]

Go to patreon. Patreon.com secondhand therapy pod ad free episodes. Ad free episodes. Early episodes.

[Elise]

Early access.

[Travis]

And if there's just.

[Elise]

You just can't get enough.

[Travis]

There's bonus features. There's. After the pod, there's asmr. There's a whole other podcast.

[Elise]

So Much.

[Travis]

That is.

[Morgan]

A problem.

[Elise]

It's. It's getting reckless.

[Morgan]

Problem.

[Elise]

It's getting reckless.

[Travis]

If it. If this. If. If it were released publicly, I would be worri.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Oh, we'd.

[Elise]

You wouldn't hear this. We'd be canceled.

[Travis]

Yeah. We need a publicist. That's on Patreon. Unfortunately, now we also have merch available. Secondhand therapy pod. Great, great, great. And I'm gonna be honest with our merch has no business being as good as this. It's really. It's very high quality and it's pretty dope. It's all designed in house. It's good. We got some tie dye. The logos are embroidered. It's a heavyweight tee. It's perfect for summer.

[Elise]

We're talking stitching.

[Travis]

Okay. That's what embroidered means. Correct. Vasectomy farm stuff still out. Portion of that still going to women's reproductive Resources. If you want to contact us, it's all in the episode description below, but I'm going to tell it to you right now anyway. Text 818-85024. No clue 4 8. That's right. Secondhand therapy pod. Gmail.com if you want to write in and if you want to send us a mail. P.O. box 230595, Las Vegas, Nevada, 89105. We'd love to hear from you again. All in the episode description below.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Sports podcast. Hey, wherever you're listening, leave a review. Subscribe to the feed.

[Elise]

Share with a friend Share it Share.

[Travis]

It Follow the social media. Do all the things support the pod. These ads are gonna fuck your whole day up, dude.

[Elise]

They're gonna ruin your day.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah. All right.

[Travis]

Play the music and then an ad.

[Elise]

Enjoy the show.

[Travis]

But mostly the ads. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Elise]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[Travis]

And we know that this is the second time she had brought it up. And I'm familiar with the term emotionally focused therapy, or eft, but I. Maybe I've experienced it and not known, but she gave me a little intro.

[Elise]

Okay.

[Travis]

And it was asking. She basically asked me a list of attachment questions and. Well, it was uncomfortable, wasn't it? No.

[Elise]

I've never heard of emotional based. I thought all therapy was emotional based.

[Travis]

Well, it's emotionally focused.

[Elise]

Oh, emotionally focused.

[Travis]

Eft.

[Elise]

Got it.

[Travis]

And lucky for you, I printed out the questions, so.

[Elise]

Of course you did.

[Travis]

We're gonna go through them also.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I have text access to my therapist for the first time.

[Elise]

How do you feel about that?

[Travis]

I like it.

[Elise]

Really?

[Travis]

I'm into it.

[Elise]

I thought you were A pretty stern believer that you shouldn't have that.

[Travis]

No, I think you'd have it. But, like, it's so much easier than going through the office. And, like. But she'll usually send me a text a few days after our session, be like, hey, here's a link to things we talked about. Oh, like, here's the link to the book I mentioned. I just want to make sure you had it in case you wanted. And so I replied, and I said, hey, will you send me a link to the questions you asked me?

[Elise]

Nice.

[Travis]

And she said, you got it. So.

[Elise]

Love it.

[Travis]

Shall we dive in?

[Elise]

Yeah, I'm okay.

[Travis]

I've already answered these, so I don't have to.

[Elise]

That's not.

[Travis]

That's how that works.

[Elise]

That's not fair.

[Travis]

All right. At your. So, attachment history. An attachment history involves doing a history of each person's experiences in attachment relationships. Here are some questions you may use during a phase of eft. Okay. And then there's a section for childhood attachment relationships and romantic attachment relationships.

[Elise]

I'll skip that.

[Travis]

Both of them?

[Elise]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Travis]

We're just gonna stick to the top. Okay. Question one. Not in any order. And they're also not numbered.

[Elise]

I don't know.

[Travis]

Why is that number one? Okay. What did you learn from your family about being emotional and vulnerable?

[Elise]

Oh, that it wasn't allowed. That's an easy one.

[Travis]

Okay, so same.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So when. When you were emotional, what. What happened?

[Elise]

It was met with humor, and then it was kind of swept under the rug, as you know. We're just trying to get through it as quick as possible. And then also, it was just followed up with, like, what do you. What are you stuck on? You know, like, there's nothing we can do about it. So, like, let's go.

[Travis]

I don't remember us growing up together.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

Yours was like that, too, huh?

[Elise]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Where was. Because you've talked before about mom fixing everything.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Is that what fixing was? Was sweeping it under the rug?

[Elise]

I mean. No, no, she would, like. She would just, like, go to battle for me if there was something going on with the teacher or something going on, you know, whatever. Like, then she would handle those battles, like, emotionally. It was. It was just led by example, too, between her and my grandmother. Like, very rarely we'd see either one of them cry. I was just telling my therapist this. Like, I used to be proud that I cried once a year. Like, that used to be, like, a badge of honor. And now I cry once a day. You know, cry today. I didn't.

[Travis]

No.

[Elise]

I didn't cry today.

[Travis]

So you're a liar.

[Elise]

You got me.

[Morgan]

Yep.

[Travis]

I cried today.

[Elise]

Did you?

[Travis]

No, didn't cry yesterday.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

When's the last.

[Morgan]

Yeah, we.

[Elise]

We've talked.

[Travis]

The last time I cried.

[Elise]

Yeah, it's been.

[Travis]

It's been one week since you looked at me. It was in Burbank.

[Elise]

Really?

[Travis]

Yeah. And it was when I was with my partner, so within the last year.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

You did have that breakthrough. I remember that.

[Travis]

I thought you're gonna say break down, and I was about to be angry.

[Elise]

Really?

[Travis]

Yeah. Why would I be angry? Don't know.

[Elise]

Well, that's programming. Because crying is breakdown, which means, yeah.

[Travis]

You had that breakdown. I was like, hey, yeah, what the fuck is your problem? But you didn't say that.

[Elise]

I didn't say that I had.

[Travis]

You think it's a breakthrough?

[Elise]

Yeah, because you. Well, you have trouble identifying emotions, expressing emotions sometimes. And then we know you can't cry.

[Travis]

Well, so I can. I just don't.

[Morgan]

Sure.

[Travis]

It's not a choice.

[Elise]

Exactly. So a breakthrough would mean, like, yeah, it's broke through that barrier or whatever you're having. So, yeah, that's a breakthrough.

[Travis]

I did that one time.

[Elise]

Good for you. It's. That's. Be proud of that.

[Travis]

I am. I wish I could do it again.

[Elise]

But in what ways were you taught, though? Like, to repress those emotions?

[Travis]

Similar. Of like, what can we do about it? And if the answer is nothing, then, yeah, life's hard.

[Morgan]

The world.

[Travis]

The world's a tough place. I always remember. The only emotions I remember being a. Like, being okay to show was anger or frustration. Yeah, that was normal. You can be frustrated. You can be. You don't be disrespectful, but you can be angry and frustrated and. But, like, sad. I. I was too embarrassed about being sad to let anybody know I was sad.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Joy. I don't know. I didn't want to annoy anybody with my Joy. Annoying. You got to be to be happy around somebody else. Yeah, Yeah, I get. I notice that in myself now. I'll be around somebody that's just like, really enjoy. Like. You ever been around? Well, you haven't, because you're normal. Ish. You ever been around, like, you're sitting across from somebody and you're eating food and they take a bite and they're just like. And I'm just like, shut the up. It's a burger. You know how shitty that is to get annoyed at someone else's excitement?

[Elise]

Dude, I.

[Travis]

And I. Dude, I was that guy for a long Time. And I hate that that was a part of my life. It was like a portion of my life.

[Elise]

I recently had to talk myself out of that emotion around that reaction because I was flipping through Tick Tock and this woman was on a train and she was like. She's like, excuse me, does anybody mind if I sing a song? And she's like, no. You guys want to hear a song? And then she just like sang like this happy song and was, like cheery and dancing. And I was like.

[Morgan]

I.

[Elise]

My blood was boiling. I was like, why would you do this?

[Travis]

Here's the thing. That's the right reaction, and I'm gonna tell you why.

[Morgan]

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Travis]

I need. I have one clarifying question. Whose Tick Tock was it?

[Elise]

I don't know.

[Travis]

Was it hers? The singer?

[Elise]

I think so. Yeah, her.

[Travis]

Her, dude. Because she's not doing it because she had a song that had to come out. She's doing it for this manufactured thing so she can share. Look how. Look how different I am. And look. And then she can zoom in on people's faces. And some people like, fuck that, dude. Yeah, that's the right reaction. Okay, that's it. Throw her out the window. Hey, bitch. Yeah, you off the train.

[Elise]

I remember think I was like, oh, God, I would hate this.

[Travis]

Yeah, I would too.

[Elise]

And then I was like, what would. And then I caught myself and I'm like, hey, this person's just being like.

[Travis]

Why do you think you would hate it? Let's assume it's a real life thing. She's not filming herself. And it really is an organic thing of somebody.

[Elise]

Like, this goes into public awareness for me. Okay, hey, don't do that. We're all on the train. You put your headphones in, you sit here like everybody else, and you get to the destination. You're so singing and dancing. That's not what we do here. What. What the are you doing?

[Travis]

So what is that emotion?

[Elise]

It's a little bit of that. That justice feeling that I have, you know, that I struggle with when I'm. Again, like the conversations we get into about, like when people get up too early on the plane to like exit and stuff and not go row by row. I'm like, oh, hey, that's not what we're doing here. Okay, so it's a little bit of that.

[Travis]

But do you have a desire to do something like that on the train? No, no, that same.

[Elise]

It's just that, like. It's just. It's like the societal rules, right? Like, we all agreed we're going to sit on this fucking train and be miserable. We're on a subway. Our job is to just shut the fuck up. You listen or you read and you shut and like, we just get there, okay. And you're breaking the rules. You're up dancing and singing and doing. Hey, we agreed.

[Travis]

You said it 10 times.

[Elise]

Yeah, yeah, we got it. That's what the. Is going on.

[Travis]

Okay, okay.

[Elise]

For you. What. It's the manufactured part of it. But if. If that was taken away, it's a real life situation.

[Travis]

If we're assuming it's not being filmed or anything. I think if I'm honest with myself and I, like, go through a few layers, I'm jealous that that person is so free and unembarrassed that they would just get up and do that. I think I'm being a hater is what it is. I'm like this idiot and I'm like, it's pretty cool. I could never. I could never. I would never.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

I think that's what it is for me. It's just pure being a hater.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Yeah. It's a bummer.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

I think the other part of it for me too, is that commisery that I was just raised with too. It's like, oh, you think you're better to me? You're singing on the train. You think you're better than me? Okay, I hope we fucking wreck.

[Travis]

Jesus. You think you're better than me? Is the. That's a wild one.

[Elise]

Yeah, it's like. It's that commisery of like, oh, you got nothing wrong in your life. You're so happy you could sing. Must be nice.

[Travis]

Wow.

[Elise]

I'm gonna sit here and fucking stew about. And that's why I had to check myself. And I'm like, I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be that hater. Like, shut up. Let her be happy.

[Travis]

Yeah. All right, question two.

[Morgan]

Sure.

[Elise]

Also sidebar.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Elise]

I noticed that our, like, there's nothing we can do about it. Like, move on. Emotion is different yours. Because you said something. You said, life's hard sometimes. Like, that's just what it is. I never had that follow up. It was just like, there's nothing we can do. Like, and that's the stopping point. It was just like, there's nothing we can do about it. So stop crying. Oh, there was never, like, this, Ha. This happens. Or like, this is what life is. Or sometimes.

[Travis]

Oh, yeah. No, mine was like, yeah, get used to it, dude.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Toughen up. It's gonna happen a lot.

[Elise]

And you and I get in that loop sometimes.

[Travis]

Yeah, for sure.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

That's interesting.

[Travis]

My therapist said something that really stuck with me about that. She was saying that that. Because that is true, life is hard. The world is a crazy place where bad things happen.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But even though that's true, a child, they're not out in the world, they're at home. Home should be a safe space. So, yes, the world is hard, life is tough, but I'm at home right now. Like, this should be a safe space. And often when you have those moments with parents, it's not a. It's not emotionally safe. You're not allowed to be emotional. It's not a moment of teaching. It's a moment of repressing the emotions. Because the world is tough. Hey, we're not out in the world. I'm at home with my mom. Why does it feel like ouchie?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You know, and that really stuck with me about, like, the world is tough, but when you're at home, you're not out in the world. And that should be a safe space. And it sounds like for us it wasn't. Now question number two.

[Elise]

Well, there's nothing we can do about it, so let's move on.

[Travis]

Let's move on. What do you remember happening? Let me start that over. Edit that out.

[Elise]

Keeping it.

[Travis]

Okay. What do you remember happening when you were little and you were hurt? Who did you turn to? Could you say you were hurting? And what was the response?

[Elise]

Yeah, it was mom and. Or grandma.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And we're gonna stick with emotional hurt. Not like you scraped your knee.

[Morgan]

Yeah, okay.

[Elise]

Mom or grandma.

[Morgan]

Okay.

[Elise]

And it was just infinite coddling.

[Travis]

What does that look like? That is a direct. What's the word? It's the opposite of what you said the first time. This is like nothing we can do about it. Get rid of it. And now you're being coddled. I'm fascinated. Keep talking.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

If I'm crying to her because I'm, you know, sad, somebody was mean to me at school, then it's reassurance and hugs and cuddles and so what were.

[Travis]

The situations in the first one you.

[Elise]

Were talking about, like if something bad happens, if somebody dies or somebody, you know, something. Yeah, I guess more tragedy based things than. More than. Not really. Like day to day emotional things of like, this kid stole my thing. And it's like, then that was met with reassurance and coddling and stuff. But if it was like, dad's dead, it's like, well, nothing we can do about it.

[Travis]

You've compartmentalized, like, levels of emotion and hurt.

[Elise]

Yeah, those are different hurts.

[Travis]

Oh, okay.

[Elise]

No, not for you.

[Travis]

I. Sure, they're different levels, but, yeah, it's odd that somebody called me fat, and you get a hug, and you're like, dad's dead. And she's like, well, suck it up. Yeah, odd.

[Elise]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now that I'm saying out loud, for sure.

[Travis]

Yeah. I was like, how is this a different answer, dude?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Oh, coddling. Endless coddling. She told me to go myself. Hey.

[Elise]

Yeah, wow. Because those things felt like they were out of our hands, you know, like, tragedy's out of our hands, but, like, somebody being mean to you because, you know, like, again, like, I come home and be like, yeah, kid, call me a big fat idiot. You know, my mom would hug me and call him, oh, you're not Michael. You. He's just jealous of you and.

[Travis]

But that is handsome. That's also out of your hands, what that guy's saying. No.

[Elise]

I don't. I didn't feel that. Like, real tragedy feels like it's uncontrollable. Some kid calling you a name at school feels like not a tragedy. You know, it's. It's like. It's just different. Those are not even in the same ballpark for me. Amount of hurt, sure, yeah.

[Travis]

But having control over them, it seems the same.

[Morgan]

I don't know.

[Elise]

Maybe control is the wrong word. I don't know. But, like, yeah, even though we couldn't. Yeah, I guess you're right with the. With the word control there. But, like, I don't know what else to call it. Like, God's will. You know what I mean? Like, whatever you want to call tragedy versus what other people do, like, controlling the actions of others, like, it's more universal than it is societal.

[Travis]

Okay, so how does she have a way of stopping him from calling you fat again the next day?

[Elise]

No, but she would just. Her job was then to just build me up, to build my resistance up, you know, you're not Michael. You're not that. He's just jealous of you. You're so handsome. Look, you're. You know, you believe her, you know, in those moments, sure, it feels nice. I don't know if belief is. Belief's a strong word, but it feels better.

[Travis]

So what is the resistance if you don't believe it?

[Elise]

I don't know. I don't know. It just kind of gives you a little bit of padding to go back, even if you don't fully believe it.

[Travis]

I think the Oreos give you the padding.

[Morgan]

Hey.

[Travis]

Hey.

[Elise]

Mommy's doing it again.

[Travis]

Yeah, for me. So, like, if somebody. If somebody broke. Somebody stole your thing.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

What is the coddling sound like?

[Elise]

It's not a big deal. We'll get it. We'll get another one. It's not a big deal.

[Travis]

We'll get another one.

[Elise]

That doesn't matter. It's okay. You're fine. You know, like, don't worry about it.

[Travis]

You lived in a consequence free world.

[Elise]

Yeah. I've told you that. Like, it's like only child. Not only only child, but like miracle child. So, like. Yeah, I think. I think that's the part that you forget sometimes is like, my parents were told they would never have children.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

And then I came about and so my mother was like, this is my identity for ever now. Like, this is my miracle baby.

[Travis]

Oh, if I had something and somebody stole it, it would be like, how did that happen? And I'd be like, oh, I left.

[Morgan]

It and I didn't.

[Travis]

She's like, okay, well, when you don't put your stuff back in your backpack, that's what's going to happen. Like, there was getting another one. You can go get that one back. But yeah, buddy, if I didn't like taking care of my things.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Very important in my house. Like, you take care of your things because it. It's not assumed that you just get these things.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Like, if. Like having a Game Boy. Yeah, buddy, Ain't nobody getting my Game Boy. I'll never get another one. Like, a Game Boy is a special thing to have because I don't. You don't just get a Game Boy.

[Elise]

Yeah, but if somebody beat you up at school and took your Game Boy, you're gonna come home, your mom's gonna be like, hey, shouldn't have got beaten up.

[Travis]

I've never been beaten up. I've never seen anybody get beaten up either.

[Elise]

Like, let's say somebody legit takes your Game Boy from you. It wasn't your mistake. It wasn't. You didn't leave it out somewhere, like somebody took it from you. Your mom's like, your mom would be like, well, go get it back.

[Travis]

No, she'd be like, well, where did it happen? At school.

[Elise]

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[Travis]

Like, who'd you tell? Did you tell the teacher? Did you tell somebody that he took your Game Boy?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

What did you do? Would be the question. What'd you do about it? It's not like, go get It. Go fight him. But, like, what's the route you took to find us? Like, obviously tell the teacher, hey, he took my Game Boy.

[Elise]

Or whatever.

[Travis]

Yeah, that, that would have been the question.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You're looking at me like I'm crazy.

[Elise]

No, I'm trying to figure out, like, if I came home, I was like, yeah, this kid took my Game Boy. My mom, my mom would probably go through those channels for me, and if there was no solution, then there would just be another Game Boy.

[Travis]

That's crazy. They would just be like, that's insane to me.

[Morgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Travis]

I'm not getting another Game Boy. I didn't take care of my first one. Or it would have been, why did you bring that to school? That would have been a good. I be like, ah, I don't know. You're right.

[Elise]

Now, there'd be anger in those areas, but it wouldn't affect the outcome.

[Morgan]

Oh, yeah.

[Elise]

They would be like, I can't believe you took that to school. I told you to leave at home. Sorry. You know, and then the next Game Boy, she'd be like, now don't take this to school.

[Travis]

And you would still take it to school.

[Morgan]

Probably.

[Travis]

But yeah, see, I, I, I had consequences.

[Elise]

No, actually, I wouldn't, I probably would. I'd be too scared to take it to school ever again. So. But, but yeah, that's, that's how it would, it would go for, for that.

[Morgan]

Damn.

[Travis]

All right. I don't think I answered. What? When you were hurt, who did you turn to? Oh, okay, so you turned them on. What about older as a teenager?

[Morgan]

Mom and Grandma.

[Travis]

Late teens, early 20s.

[Elise]

Mom.

[Travis]

Shut up.

[Elise]

Grandma. Okay, late 20s, Mom, Grandma.

[Travis]

Jesus. Good for you. So when I was hurt when I was little, it was my mom because she was my primary caregiver. I gotta tell you once about middle school start. Nobody. No one. Dude, why? Embarrassed? Yeah, I'm fine. Everything's fine.

[Elise]

What did you think? What was the fear of, of somebody. Of asking for help or, or leaning on somebody, not even asking for help, but just like.

[Travis]

I don't know that it was a. I mean, subconsciously, I'm sure it was a fear. It was, it was just an embarrassment. It's embarrassed that something bad happened or I was scared or like, dude, I remember anytime I felt scared, it was the most humiliating thing because I did not want anybody to know I was feeling scared.

[Elise]

Why?

[Travis]

Hey, man, how the. I don't know.

[Elise]

Would you. You really don't, like, have a reason for that?

[Travis]

There's, I mean, I would assume it's because, like, I've talked about it on here before. Like, when I was young, if I was, like, scared of the dark or something, and I would try to go, like, sleep in my mom's bed, she would send me back to bed.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So I'm sure it's like that. That anytime I showed fear, I was rejected.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

So fear was like, so you didn't.

[Elise]

Feel like you had an option? It wasn't that you were choosing. It wasn't just like, you woke up one day and you're like, I'm not gonna ask anybody again. It was like more of a feeling of like, there are no options. It's. It's me now.

[Travis]

Maybe I think it makes more sense in my head of, I can sit with this alone or I can go be rejected by my mom.

[Morgan]

Right. Yeah.

[Travis]

Which do I want to do? And it's just a learned behavior of, all right, I'll deal with it on my own so at least I don't have to get rejected and feel like, over there.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Yeah. It's a bummer.

[Elise]

What about with relationships and things like that? When you got into those when you were older, did. Was that still the same fear of rejection or could you lean on your partners?

[Travis]

Not until my current relationship. Too embarrassed. Which I assume is.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Fear of rejection or fear of judgment. Probably being seen as weak.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Which is probably from my childhood and a lot of societal programming, too.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Did you notice even when I said, let's say you got beat up at school, and you're like, I didn't get beat up. Like, it was like.

[Travis]

It's also a circumstance of like, I went to Catholic school when I was young.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And there's 40 fifth graders. Like, I didn't go to public school till middle school. And, yeah, I never got beat up.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I just didn't.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

I thought it was more so, like, no, no, I'm not weak. I don't get beat up.

[Travis]

Oh, no, it wasn't like that. It was just one of those things where I know you're trying to do a scenario. And I'm like, yeah, that didn't happen, though.

[Elise]

Okay.

[Travis]

And you're like, okay, but if it did. So I was just, like, pre annoyed when I go, I didn't get beat up. You're like, okay, well, I'm not literally saying beta and wow.

[Elise]

Hey, man. Kids at my school got beat up.

[Travis]

Of course they did. So, like, ran each other with their tractors. So, yeah, I saw a couple of fights, but I never saw, like, like, a bullying turn into like a beating? Oh, yeah, nothing like that. Yeah, I didn't like seeing fights. Very uncomfortable to watch.

[Elise]

Have you ever been in a fight?

[Travis]

Almost a couple times. But I've always been pretty strong. So the most it's ever gotten is like a shove. Like once I shove you, you're every. They always fall down and then it's kind of over.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

I tried to fight a kid once. I did. I was. Because I was like, well, let's just get this out of the way. I was in high school.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

I was like, all right, let me get this out of the way. And there was this. I heard this one kid, everybody's like, you know, this kid's been talking a lot of about, you know. I was like, he's a idiot. What do I care?

[Morgan]

And then.

[Travis]

I forget what happened, but I heard him saying something about me and I was like. And I didn't like that. And I was like, oh, okay. And so it was after school and I remember asking, I was like, where's this, where's this kid after school? Where can I find him?

[Elise]

And they're like, oh, Italian thing ever? Yeah, anywhere I can find his.

[Travis]

Where can I find him?

[Elise]

Where does he hang out? The. By the monkey bars?

[Travis]

Yeah, well, it was high school, but yeah, like, oh, he always walks back by the basketball courts cuz he lives down in whatever neighborhood. I was like, oh, okay. So I pulled up on him in my car and I was like, hey. He's like, what's up? And I was like, no, no, not what's up.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And I was like, you want to fight it out or what are we doing? And he's like, nah, fighting is stupid. And I go, okay, shut your mouth then. And I just left. That was it.

[Morgan]

Nice.

[Travis]

And then everyone's like, well, you didn't even get out of your car.

[Elise]

I was like, just a drive by bully.

[Travis]

I drove by, I was like, hey, well, you want to do this or not? And he said no. So I left. And that was it. I tried.

[Elise]

That's so funny.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I think I was relieved though, because I was like, also, God, I would have beat the out of that kid.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And it's just like, even now I avoid physical confrontation at all costs. Dude, the idea of like breaking somebody's jaw or breaking somebody's nose, I know myself, like, as soon as the anger's over, I'm gonna feel terrible.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Ah.

[Travis]

I mean, if you're bothering my girl, it's one thing. You're bothering my niece or my sister. My mom, like, something like that.

[Morgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Travis]

You know, I'll introduce you to the pavement, you know, but like a stupid thing at Costco. I'm gonna wreck some guy's face over. Dude, I would feel so bad.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I don't want to hurt anybody.

[Elise]

I feel that sometimes, even after, like, verbal you get into with somebody and you're like, yeah, why'd we do that?

[Travis]

Strangers, I don't care. But people that care about you.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Even strangers. I'm like, that guy, you know, what are we doing?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

No, I don't get it. With strangers. You can get that. You can get it.

[Elise]

Did. I have been in a few fights in my life. I also got Molly whopped a couple times.

[Travis]

I know. You got your double earrings ripped out. I remember that.

[Morgan]

I did.

[Elise]

Have I ever told the story in here about getting in a fight when I was young and while my father was still alive? Okay.

[Morgan]

So my.

[Elise]

My dad was watching me. Big quotations around that.

[Travis]

Passed out.

[Elise]

Yeah, exactly. I was down at the park, and some kid and I got in a fight. I don't even know what it was about. And he. He got me.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Elise]

I got licked, huh? And I came back to the house, and I told my dad, and he was like, well, go back down there and don't come back till you win.

[Travis]

Bring that pipe over there. Grab the pipe.

[Elise]

So I had to go back out, and guess what?

[Travis]

Got you again.

[Elise]

Got me again?

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Got me again.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

I came back. I was like, I'm not going back. It's tough. That was my father. That was my father's way of parenting.

[Travis]

I mean, hey, that's. That. That tracks.

[Elise]

That's 90s dad through and through.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Just like, oh, yeah, you got beat up. Well, not in this house.

[Travis]

Yeah. And also, like, I mean, I kind of with your dad. Like, not if that is the thing. And you are gonna go back. Yeah, bro, you got to wait till he tires out something.

[Morgan]

Something.

[Travis]

Do something. He can't go back twice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, question three. Nah, we already did that, kind of. How did you know when a parental figure was sad? Oh, no. When did you know? Jesus Christ. How did you know when a parent was angry?

[Elise]

We've talked about this a little bit. Silent.

[Travis]

Silent treatment. What if they were angry? Not at you.

[Elise]

Silent.

[Travis]

If she's mad at grandma, she's not talking to you.

[Elise]

She's not talking to nobody. She's isolating herself. She's silent, short.

[Travis]

What that feel like for you?

[Elise]

Rejection, neglect.

[Travis]

That's how you teach your kids to try to control their parents emotions.

[Elise]

If you're listening, that's how you teach them to try to control everybody's emotions.

[Travis]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a bummer.

[Morgan]

Yeah. What about you?

[Travis]

Yeah. You though?

[Elise]

Well, she'd have her shoe in one.

[Travis]

Hand and then she, you know, louder, loud, yelling, profanity. Sometimes. Not always at us, but. Yeah, you could. You dumb. Mom's mad for sure. She was mad at us. Yeah. Some yelling like we got hit sometimes.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But I don't. I think some silent treatment probably.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

It sounds like you got anger and I got disappointment.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Be a good way to put it.

[Elise]

My mother would be like, cannot, but nope, can't believe it.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Elise]

And never yelling or anger. Just like.

[Travis]

Oh, yeah. No yelling. And you're like, yeah, but this is a. Oh, yeah. If I joke. Yeah, but I don't want to hear it.

[Elise]

I don't want to rather have that. I'd rather have it out with somebody than somebody to shut down on me.

[Travis]

Still. Still. Hey, you're the guy that shuts down. Well, and unfortunately I'm the guy that likes to have it out. And then you shut down and.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Okie dokie.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

We're just two moms yelling at each other.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

How did you know when we're just gonna say Mom? How did you know when mom was sad or afraid?

[Elise]

She would be. Let's start here. She. She would mask it really well. So it would be almost impossible for you to know if she was sad or afraid. But she would get quiet sometimes. You could just like, there would just be a quietness to her.

[Travis]

Different than silent.

[Elise]

Okay, quiet. Not silent sometimes, but it would just be a hint of it. It wouldn't you. But you almost have to be a fucking bloodhound to sniff it out on her. You know what I mean? You'd have to really be paying attention to be like, hold on. Okay. The answer is always, yeah, I'm fine. Everything's fine. But yeah, the goal was to not know.

[Morgan]

You.

[Travis]

Well, before I go.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You want to talk about the level of detection you're having with your mother to be safe at home, you just said quiet, not silent. You had to be a bloodhound and sniff it out. Hey, man.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

That's not normal for a kid to have to navigate in their home.

[Elise]

She's been strong for us.

[Travis]

You don't have to defend her. We could just talk about how it impacted you if you want, but I think that's.

[Elise]

I'm not trying to. I think that's A normal thing for parents to want to be strong for their children. Maybe she was taking that too seriously.

[Morgan]

But, yeah.

[Elise]

I didn't look at that as safety because she's. She's sad or she's afraid. It doesn't have to do with my safety. She's not going to take those emotions out on me. And, like, it has nothing to do with me. You know what I mean? Like, if it was the answer to the other question, I think that would have to do with safety. But, yeah, I think that's. I would just look at it as. That's what parents do. They try to stay strong in front of children.

[Travis]

You really have compartmentalized a lot of emotions with your mother.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Is that not normal? Was your mother not strong in front of you? Sure.

[Travis]

But I also. That's tied into every other thing my mom does with you. It's. Well, no, that doesn't affect me. Hey, man. You're still hyper aware of what your mom is doing because obviously you're feeling some sort of way.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

That's the root of what we're talking about. And you're trying to. Well, it's different because she was sad and she's not going to take that out of me. Okay. You're 10, bro.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You don't know. Mom's quiet and you're. You notice that and you have to fix it. Because I'm assuming at that time it felt like a threat.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

You keep compartmentalizing it as why it's okay and why it's not. And it's interesting. Seems like you're still very protective of her image.

[Elise]

I thought I was just describing the situations.

[Morgan]

Okay. I don't know.

[Elise]

I thought that's what we were doing. I didn't realize it was something else. What's the difference between what I'm doing, what you're doing?

[Travis]

I haven't once defended my mother's behavior. I'm just talking about my experience. I think it's a big difference.

[Elise]

Besides this last thing about just being like. I think all parents are just strong, like, in front of their kids. Like, besides that. Like, have I been.

[Travis]

Oh, I think so, yeah.

[Elise]

Really?

[Travis]

Oh, yeah.

[Elise]

In what way? Can you give me another example? I'm being serious. Can you give me another.

[Travis]

Not off the top of my head. I just. I get the feeling and impression that you're stating your experience with the intent of not speaking negatively of your mom directly is how it comes across to.

[Elise]

Me.

[Travis]

Which I don't think I'm speaking of my mother negatively. I'm Sharing my experience.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

And I know a lot of people are going to hear that and be horrified, and that is what it is. Whereas I. It just seems to me like you're still very protective of how you speak of her and especially how you want people to hear you speak of her.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Besides this last part. I didn't really catch myself doing that. But maybe. I mean.

[Morgan]

Okay.

[Elise]

I don't know.

[Travis]

Yeah, you don't need to be. It's not the thing.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I'm just reading it as well. Yeah.

[Elise]

I just wasn't. I wasn't. That's something I was trying to do on purpose.

[Travis]

I know. That's another thing.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Yeah.

[Morgan]

What?

[Travis]

Just, you know, I was like. I'm not trying. It's wasn't her intent. Yeah, I know. We're talking about getting down.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

It's never whatever's right in front of your face. That's never what we're talking about.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

What's going on?

[Elise]

I was just thinking, like, yeah, yeah, I am protective of her, but I don't know. I don't.

[Morgan]

You know, man. You know.

[Elise]

I almost said you love this. You freak.

[Travis]

You freak. Is that what you said?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Elise]

Love this.

[Travis]

All right.

[Elise]

I almost said.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Open your eyes, though.

[Elise]

I. Why? I don't want to.

[Travis]

I know.

[Elise]

I.

[Travis]

Open your eyes when you talk.

[Elise]

I don't want to.

[Travis]

Okay.

[Elise]

I almost said. Yeah, of course I'm protective of her. She's someone who needs my protection.

[Travis]

And there it is.

[Elise]

You piece of.

[Travis]

Why am I a piece of.

[Elise]

You bring it out of me, you piece of. You went in there and got that. You.

[Travis]

You're welcome.

[Elise]

Yeah, I don't.

[Morgan]

Yeah, yeah.

[Elise]

She's somebody who needs my protection.

[Travis]

No, she's. You know, who needs your protection.

[Elise]

Don't say it.

[Morgan]

You.

[Travis]

Yeah, it's hard to protect yourself when you're always worried about mom, though, huh?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

All right, next question.

[Elise]

Yay. It's a fun game.

[Travis]

Oh, I didn't answer. Sad or afraid? Is that. Is that fine?

[Elise]

No. Oh, I'd like to hear your.

[Travis]

I'm too honest. Afraid. Never seen it.

[Elise]

Ever.

[Travis]

Never seen my mom seem afraid. Act afraid, Be afraid. Never sad. I've seen my mom cry twice.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Once was at her father's funeral during the eulogy she was giving, and the other was not my story to tell, so I'm not going to be sharing that.

[Elise]

Couldn't tell you moments where she was, quote, unquote, allowed to be sad.

[Travis]

Yeah, I guess.

[Morgan]

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[Travis]

That's probably a good way to Put it. Yeah. So I couldn't. Couldn't identify my mom as. Especially as a kid now I think I could probably pick it out.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I don't ever remember having a thought of like mom seems off or mom seems sad. She was either fine or she was angry. That was it.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

How did that. How do you think it affected you in that way? Do you think you just kind of followed the leader?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Yeah, for sure.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I mean I. Those are my two go to's. I'm either fine or I'm pissed. You know, I've gotten in more to in the last couple years. I can really tune into moments of joy and I can tune into sadness. Still don't tune in much to excitement. I've always been tuned into fear. I think I operate. I'm a pretty. I was a very scared kid. I think I operate as.

[Morgan]

I don't.

[Travis]

Know, decently fearful but I'm pretty tuned into when I feel fear. I just still am too embarrassed to talk about it with anybody I guess.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

What does that look like when you.

[Travis]

I'm not gonna talk about you. Were you listening? I'm just kidding. Go ahead. I use humor when I'm uncomfortable. What's your question? I need a drink.

[Elise]

Yeah, take me through that process. What is it like when you are experiencing fear? What do you do with it? If you're not expressing it or you're not telling anybody, like what do you do with it?

[Travis]

You mean incidents? What kind of fear? Like danger or I don't know, abandonment or what? Like a threat to my physical safety or something else.

[Elise]

Not like, I mean just like the day to day anxiety of fear that comes up.

[Travis]

Logic my way out of it or do with it with my head.

[Morgan]

So.

[Travis]

Yeah, I decide if it's a realistic threat that I'm under, if it's just anxiety and if it is more anxiety than anything else. I just talk myself through the logic of like why it's not a real threat. Like fight or flight isn't a real reaction in this moment. It's biological. But if it is a real thing to be scared of, I try to sit with it but it's still something that I'm always going to sit with alone right at this point in my life. I think my current partner, I could tell her if I was feeling scared. I think I have. But kind of the way you phrased it with my mom, it has to be something that you're allowed to be scared of.

[Elise]

Yeah, yeah I can.

[Travis]

This is normal to be scared. Like I'll tell you about it. Anything else? Yes, there's way too much shame and embarrassment.

[Elise]

Is it the same fear of rejection if you share it or.

[Travis]

Probably rejection or judgment? I think.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Would you judge others if they were scared?

[Travis]

I'd like to say no, but, you know, I'm a pretty flawed human being, so I'm sure if there was. Well, no, I don't think I would judge, but I think my reaction if somebody was scared of something that I see as minuscule or not something to be scared of, I don't. I wouldn't judge them, but I could understand how my reaction could leave them in a place of feeling judged.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Because I am monotone, and I do joke around, and I do. That's how I handle things. And if you don't know me or if you're not in a moment of. If you need, like, sincere comfort or understanding. That's not my initial reaction. My initial reaction is always humor or. So, no, I don't think I would judge, but I think that because I don't often lead with a softness, that I think people could think they're being judged or feel judged. Does that make sense?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Two things. I brought that up because that's oftentimes how it's been reframed for me to feel okay about things. Is somebody who asked me, would you feel this way if somebody was, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, no, of course. And then I'm like, oh, okay.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

So why do I feel this way if I wouldn't. If I wouldn't place that judgment or thinking on somebody else? Why am I so afraid to be, you know, whatever.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

2. What do you think happens if you don't have that humor as a buffer?

[Travis]

Well, without humor, it's. It's just vulnerability. And being vulnerable is scary.

[Morgan]

Just.

[Travis]

It's hard to be vulnerable, man. Vulnerability is opening yourself up to be hurt. I never learned how to do that.

[Morgan]

Yeah. So.

[Travis]

Yeah, I think that's the. I think that's one of the things that most human beings have in common. That's. I think that's one of the very common threads that human beings all share, is just difficulty of vulnerability. Being vulnerable is really hard.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But, man, if we could all just lead with compassion and vulnerability. Oh, buddy. Human race, the world, everything would be different.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

But it seems, especially in your case, with vulnerability being. What's the word I'm looking for? Not protected, but kind of behind a glass case. You know, you can only break it for emergencies, a funeral, something like this. Do you think that. How do you feel about vulnerability, then? Is it a weakness or. Or a strength.

[Travis]

Strength.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I think. I think the strongest people are able to be vulnerable, especially in scary and uncomfortable moments.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But unfortunately, that's not something I learned.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

Until well into adulthood, probably within the last four or five years.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

I really looked at that. I mean, I've always known the words that showing emotion is strength and strong. I've known those words. I've known the idea.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Elise]

But the examples, I just.

[Travis]

Outside of examples, I never, even until a couple years ago, I didn't embrace it. I didn't believe it. I didn't buy into it.

[Morgan]

No.

[Travis]

I just knew the words, you know?

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

But now that, you know, I've embraced that or tried to. Working on embracing it. Yeah. I can actually try to implement it into my life. But it's. It's like I've talked about on here many times. It's. For me, it's kind of the idea that goes with happiness. It's. It's not really a destination.

[Morgan]

Yeah.

[Travis]

It's. It's something that I'm gonna have to practice for the rest of my life. And. Yeah, I. I hope I have the fortitude to do that for myself and for the people in my life that I care about, because I know the people in my life that I choose to be in my life, that I choose to be close with and I choose to let close to me, they deserve to be treated with vulnerability and compassion. And I deserve to be somebody that leads with compul. With vulnerability and compassion. So I hope that I can continue on the path to give that to all of us, and we know that.