When Childhood Fear Becomes Adult Anxiety | #102

Summary

Secondhand Therapy

When Childhood Fear Becomes Adult Anxiety | Episode #102

Date: October 6, 2025
Hosts: Louie Paoletti & Michael Malone
Podcast: Secondhand Therapy (PonyBear Studios)

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Overview

In this heartfelt, humorous episode, Louie and Michael dive deep into the ways childhood fear, instilled largely through parental anxiety and exaggerated caution, can morph into adult anxiety and emotional dysregulation. Along the way, they tackle nostalgia, the complexities of sharing on social media, vulnerability in friendships, and the hard but necessary work of emotional growth—all with the podcast's signature honesty, wit, and self-awareness.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Seattle Reset & The Paradox of Capturing Moments

[05:31 – 15:17]

• Louie shares a recent solo trip to “old Seattle,” describing a mindful morning walk, journaling and capturing a peaceful beach scene on video. He reflects on the gap between experiencing life and documenting it, pondering whether photos and videos allow us to "take moments with us,” or obstruct genuine presence.

  • “I was taking a bunch of pictures, and I was thinking about, like, when I'm taking pictures, sometimes I think they're going to be incredible...and then I go back…usually they surprise me.” (Louie – 06:41)

• Michael respectfully challenges the analogy between photos and memories:

  • “A photo doesn’t change...but moments, you can have a truly horrific moment and, even as you look back, it's never going to feel that fresh again...” (Michael – 08:26)

• The hosts debate the value and pitfalls of trying to relive or share experiences through technology, touching on accessibility to media and emotional overload in the digital era.

  • “I am trying to break myself of this thing that we’re supposed to have access to everything all the time...You don’t get to take vacation back home with you.” (Michael – 10:54)

  • Louie enjoys some nostalgia from his travel video:
    “When I look at that video...it doesn’t feel exactly how it felt...but a lot of those feelings still wash over me.” (Louie – 13:14)

  • Michael quips back: “You’re lying to yourself...what you’re going to rewatch is you like this [on your phone]. That’s the memory you captured.” (Michael – 13:41, 13:53)

Social Media: Sharing vs. Validation and Loneliness

[19:05 – 26:09]

• The discussion expands to how and why we share life online. Is it to authentically connect, gain validation, or avoid loneliness?

  • Michael argues posting is “a desire for attention...for people to envy you for a moment.” (20:13)

• Louie acknowledges some truth:

  • “I do like to be liked...but in that specific moment...that was a sharing moment. That was not a validation moment.” (21:02, 21:09)

• Both consider “checking in” via stories and its impact:

  • Louie: “I like it when other people do that...just getting a little window into what they’re doing.” (24:05)
  • Michael: “Yeah, you’re nosy...but also, it’s not real, dude. You’re choosing what to check in.” (24:12, 24:15)

• Louie admits he often shares because of loneliness:

  • “I’m a little lonely...so why not send a little update? It’s just me out here.” (25:17)

• Michael’s sharp commentary: “If you could learn to just be on your walk and enjoy it, maybe you’d be less lonely.” (25:36)

The Public Persona vs. The Private Self

[27:20 – 37:17]

• Louie talks about how sharing became “his job” for decades and how artists like Bo Burnham and Maria Bamford navigated their relationships with public and private performance.

  • “You kind of have to post to build community, build content...” (Louie – 33:40)

  • Michael: “Instagram is your publicist...it’s not your diary.” (37:07)

• They discuss whether freedom from constant sharing leads to better art, referencing Bo Burnham’s withdrawal from social media.

  • “He did all the things you’re doing, and then he’s like, ‘oh, that’s fucking terrible’—and put out the best shit he’s ever done after.” (Michael – 35:03)

The Origin: Childhood Fears, Parental Anxiety, and Adult Triggers

[44:41 – 61:01]

• Louie opens up about starting a higher dose of Adderall, and how discussing this with his therapist unearthed deeply-rooted fears from his childhood—particularly those instilled by his mother’s catastrophic warnings ("everything was worst-case scenario").

  • “Everything was so big. Like, everything was death with mom...You can’t drive in the rain because you’ll wreck your car and you’ll die.” (44:48)

• These dire warnings left Louie unable, as an adult, to discern the scale of problems—everything feels big, and mistakes feel existential.

  • “So that’s why now I can’t discern when things are small or big...It’s hard for me to determine what matters and what doesn’t...” (47:30)

• He describes how, after a perceived conflict (e.g., being told “we should spend less time together”), he’d withdraw entirely, expecting total rejection.

  • “...if my mother said, ‘Don’t leave your shoes in the hallway,’ it would be like, ‘I’d trip and die!’...so if I leave my shoes out, I kill mom.” (46:44)

  • “Even now, if you and I get in an argument, I think you’re done with me for good...Logically, I still can’t understand that it’s temporary.” (51:38 – 51:40)

  • Michael observes, “That’s a pretty vulnerable thing.” (57:02)

• Louie shares that his mother’s fear was intended as protection, but the result was a chronic anxiety that persists now she’s gone—a direct hand-me-down from mom.

  • “My therapist hit me with this. He said, ‘Do you think that your mother put a lot of extra fear in you so that it would carry over when she's gone?’...that’s exactly what happened.” (59:58 – 60:36)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Michael on nostalgia and memories:
  “Your memory is so unreliable. But I do like the analogy. I just don’t know that I...agree with it.” (08:53)

• Louie on social postings:
  “I’m a little lonely...so why not send a little update?” (25:17)

• Michael on the true driver for online sharing:
  “It’s not sharing. It’s a desire for attention. It’s a desire for people to envy you for a moment.” (20:13)

• Louie’s reflection on childhood messages:
  “Everything was so big. Like, everything was death with mom...” (44:48)

• Michael, summing up the legacy of childhood fear:
  “Damn, your mom fucked you up.” (59:03)

• Louie, on inherited anxiety:
  “...my therapist hit me with this: ‘Do you think your mother put a lot of extra fear in you, so that would carry over when she’s gone?’...that’s exactly what happened.” (59:58 – 60:36)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Seattle reset, nostalgia, and living in the moment: 05:31–15:17
• The debate: capturing, sharing, and being present: 09:06–15:00
• Social validation vs authentic sharing: 19:05–26:09
• The public/private line for artists: 27:20–37:17
• Parental anxiety as origin of adult anxiety: 44:41–61:01

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Tone and Dynamic

The episode balances vulnerability and humor, with Louie often self-reflective and Michael honestly skeptical, poking at each other's logic but supporting real growth. The hosts’ dynamic oscillates between playful bickering and raw, emotional honesty, creating a uniquely honest account of the messy road to emotional awareness.

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Takeaways

• Childhood fears, especially when inflamed by anxious parents, often translate into maladaptive adult anxieties and an inability to discern or downscale everyday stressors.
• Social media and nostalgia are double-edged: sometimes connective, more often serving as distraction or validation-seeking.
• Vulnerability in friendships requires communication rather than assumption or withdrawal.
• Awareness of inherited emotional patterns is crucial—but awareness alone isn’t an immediate fix.

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Closing Thought

Louie: “All the roads lead back to protection. And my therapist hit me with this: do you think your mother put a lot of extra fear in you so that would carry over when she’s gone? That’s exactly what happened.”

Michael: “Damn, your mom fucked you up.” (59:03–59:09)

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Transcript

[Michael]

I mean, you could look at that way, but it could also be, I think, like, we're hanging out a lot. Like, it's. I've noticed some distance in my relationship or it's kind of saturating the podcast. You know, we're not.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

There's a lot of things, so it's.

[Michael's Friend]

Not always my fault, is what you're saying.

[Michael]

Huh?

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, that. Now, that's interesting. Welcome back to secondhand Therapy. We don't remind you that we are not.

[Michael]

Hey, what's up, though?

[Michael's Friend]

Therapists. We're not licensed professionals, and this is not a substitute for therapy in any way.

[Michael]

Did I honestly, I wasn't listening. I'm gonna say it just in case you tell me if you said it.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay.

[Michael]

We're not therapists.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

We're not experts.

[Michael's Friend]

Nailed it.

[Michael]

This is not a substitute for therapy.

[Michael's Friend]

I did all that.

[Michael]

This is not professional advice in any way.

[Michael's Friend]

Yep.

[Michael]

Good job.

[Michael's Friend]

Nailed it, dude.

[Michael]

Anyway. Are you lying to me? No. This is being recorded, so we'll find out. I.

[Michael's Friend]

Listen, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be honest with you right now. I don't know.

[Michael]

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I listened to TV off earlier today.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I've been saying, hey, what's up, though? All day long.

[Michael's Friend]

Hey. I can't blame you.

[Michael]

Hey, what's up, though?

[Michael's Friend]

I tell you what's up.

[Michael]

What's up.

[Michael's Friend]

These ads. They're about to hear so many ads.

[Michael]

Are they?

[Michael's Friend]

Maybe. I don't know. And you don't know when they're coming. We don't know when they're coming. They're going to come out of nowhere. So go over to Patreon, avoid the ads, head on over to Patreon, get ad free episodes and early access. You would be listening to this episode on Friday. You would have already heard this episode. But now you're here on a Monday, listening to it while you drive to work instead of driving home from work.

[Michael]

Okay. We got an email.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

From a woman. A young, nice, lovely woman. Lovely lady.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay.

[Michael]

Who is taking an indefinite break from the podcast because our pitches of Patreon are too aggressive and they were triggering for her. And listening to. To this podcast was no longer a.

[Michael's Friend]

Safe space because of your abusive time. Yes.

[Michael]

Yep. So I'm gonna ask nicely.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay.

[Michael]

If you like what we're doing here and you would like to support it, Patreon is a good place for that instead of giving your money to Starbucks, you idiot.

[Michael's Friend]

No, no, just the first part.

[Michael]

Which part was.

[Michael's Friend]

The last part is bad. You can't see, that's the abusive part. It's the. It's the first part. That's okay. It was very nice.

[Michael]

Please go to Patreon.

[Michael's Friend]

See you. No, damn it.

[Michael]

We're doing giveaways on Patreon now. Well, not giveaways. If you sign up, you get a little treat.

[Michael's Friend]

Get a little treat.

[Michael]

Get a little treat. If you sign up for the ad free tier, we're gonna send you a sticker that. I'm gonna be honest with you. A lot of time went into designing the sticker.

[Michael's Friend]

It's really cool.

[Michael]

It's really cool.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Um, we're not going to sell them. They're only. If you sign up on Patreon, I promise. They're dope. So much time went into designing these, it's ridiculous. If you sign up for the second tier, which is where you get the other shit show, you get the bonus content, you get all. You get a bunch of stuff. We're going to send you the sticker and a little print, also a lot of time into designing the print. And we'll sign them and send them out to you. And then if you sign up for the highest tier, where you get all the other stuff and you get access to live streams, you get to hang out with us a couple times a month, we'll send you a T shirt, too.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

So sign up for Patreon, you get a little treat.

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, and this week, by the time you're hearing it, it's already been out for a week. I'm launching a new podcast, Boo.

[Michael]

I'm kidding. It's really good.

[Michael's Friend]

Called Happy Not Funny.

[Michael]

It's actually very good.

[Michael's Friend]

So if you're interested in what we're doing here. But you also like standup comedy in that world and behind the scenes and that working. Go over and check that out. Happy not funny. And if you check out Patreon, you get ad free episodes and early access to that podcast as well.

[Michael]

Patreon.com Secondhand therapy pod for all that stuff. Do I get to be on your podcast? Do I get to be a guest?

[Michael's Friend]

Are you funny?

[Michael]

I mean, you should check our comments. There's only one comedian on the show, and it ain't you, my boy.

[Michael's Friend]

I'm retired.

[Michael]

And it ain't you, my boy.

[Michael's Friend]

I am retired.

[Michael]

Yep.

[Michael's Friend]

Hey, if you want to send us hate mail, you can send us physical mail postcards, leave us voice notes, send.

[Michael]

Us pictures of your donkeys and your cows.

[Michael's Friend]

Donkeys and cows.

[Michael]

Donkeys send us donkeys and cows.

[Michael's Friend]

All of that is in the information in the bio.

[Michael]

I just did a new painting. It has a donkey in it.

[Michael's Friend]

I saw that. Yeah. All right, we got to get into this episode. Thank you for being here. We love you. While you're here, please, like, subscribe, share the episode. Leave a comment. A nice one, if you could.

[Michael]

I don't give a. Leave a comment. If you're gonna leave a review. Make it a good one, though, please.

[Michael's Friend]

See, it helps. See, that wasn't that hard. Yeah, that was nice. Good for you. Good job.

[Michael]

Thanks.

[Michael's Friend]

All right, welcome to the episode. We love you. We're glad you're here.

[Michael]

Better help link below. Contact info below. Thank you for being here. We appreciate you giveaways on Patreon. Love you. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[Michael's Friend]

And welcome back secondhand therapy.

[Michael]

And we know that.

[Michael's Friend]

So I was in old Seattle. I was up there taking a little. Had a little reset.

[Michael]

Old Seattle.

[Michael's Friend]

I was in old Seattle. I wasn't in. Okay, new age Seattle. I was an old Seattle.

[Michael]

Okay. You were in old Seattle.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, I was. I had a nice little. I had a nice little solo trip.

[Michael]

Yeah, you did. I wasn't invited.

[Michael's Friend]

That's right. I was walking on the beach.

[Michael]

Be honest. Did you think about inviting me?

[Michael's Friend]

Absolutely. I want you to go to Seattle.

[Michael]

So bad, but you didn't invite me.

[Michael's Friend]

Why? Okay. You wouldn't go.

[Michael]

I was waiting for you to invite me.

[Michael's Friend]

That's not true.

[Michael]

Yeah, I know. I do want to go to Seattle, though.

[Michael's Friend]

It's so nice up there. It's one of my favorite spots.

[Michael]

How many times have we talked about taking the train up the coast?

[Michael's Friend]

Too many. We're a couple old men right now. How many times have we talked about?

[Michael]

Like, three.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, it was nice.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

I'm in hiking. I had a little reset. I was journaling.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

I was doing all that stuff. I had this thought, and I think you're gonna hate it. Maybe you'll like it. I don't know.

[Michael]

All right.

[Michael's Friend]

I was on my hike, and I was taking a bunch of pictures, and I was thinking about, like, when I'm taking pictures, sometimes I think they're gonna be incredible. And then other times I take them and I'm like, I didn't really get anything today. Like, these are all. And then I go back to the house, and I'm editing, and I'm going through them, I'm processing them and. And whatever. And I'm.

[Michael]

And as one does on a vacation.

[Michael's Friend]

And usually. Usually they. They surprise me. Usually the. The ones that I think are. Are incredible. And the ones I Think are incredible. Oh. And I was on my little hike early in the morning, and I'm thinking about this, and I'm thinking how it relates in life and how a lot of these moments that we have in the moment, it either feels like it's incredible or it's. And then you process it and time passes and you look at it and you go, oh, yeah, that wasn't as bad as I thought it was. Or that was even better, or that was necessary to happen, like, that kind of thing. And I don't know, I just like that little reflection that I had on my. My morning walk. Well.

[Michael]

You proud of yourself? No. That makes sense. That's cool.

[Michael's Friend]

I need you to change gears out of the show and come on over to secondhand therapy.

[Michael]

Sorry. We're reflective here.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Here's the thing.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I don't know if I agree with it.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay.

[Michael]

I didn't say I don't like it. I like it. But a photo.

[Michael's Friend]

Huh?

[Michael]

I'm gonna say it.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay.

[Michael]

A photo doesn't change. You have the photo, you edit it, and whatever. You're like, holy, that turned out great. But moments. You can have a truly horrific moment, and even as you look back on it, it's never going to feel that fresh again, so it's probably not going to be as bad. And same thing with Joy. You're never gonna. You're gonna look back and be like, oh, man, I was so excited about that. But it was like. It was okay.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I don't know. Your memory is. Is so unreliable.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But I do like the analogy. I just don't know that I. I don't know that I agree with it.

[Michael's Friend]

But you also. You're not one. Okay. Because we got into this actually in the show talking about capturing moments, right? Oh, hiking. Yeah, we were talking about hiking, and I took a little video from the hike, and you were like, just be in the moment. Just capture it with your mind. So does that carry over into photos as well? Like, when you're out in the world, like on a vacation or with your girl somewhere, are you taking a photograph or are you just living in the moment?

[Michael]

If I am on a trip and I'm taking a photograph, it is for. It's for the photography of it. It's not for the future. Nostalgia, be. Well, yeah, I mean. Yeah, I just. I don't. I don't know. Yeah, I just. I don't think I subscribe to that. The idea that you like. Like, we'll just do the same thing of you on the Hike. Taking the video. Yeah, you're not. You watch the video of the hike. Okay. Hey, just go do the hike again. Yeah, Like, I don't understand. I do understand. I don't. Like. And I am trying to break myself of this thing that were supposed to have access to everything all the time. Like if. If you're sitting here behind your desk, you're not supposed to be like, oh, I'm hiking, or have. Have a thing like, either use your memory or go hike. Like, you don't. That's not. That's not how life works. You don't get to take vacation back home with you. You don't get to take Hawaii back to your living room. Go back to Hawaii. It might take a while. That's what experiences are.

[Michael's Friend]

I don't.

[Michael]

This thing that we have to have every experience in our pocket. And like. Like I've been talking to you. I'm trying to get. I'm trying to get off streaming.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Like, why the fuck do I need every song ever made readily available to me? It's very convenient. Nah, I'll pop in a CD or a tape. I'm getting my. I'm getting my tape. Game up cassettes, baby. And then I'll listen to it. This, like, having access to every album, every song. What are we doing? What do we need that for?

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, I agree. And I. I think we have. I've been thinking about this. In that realm of like, we just have access to too many people as well. We're not supposed to be this exposed to this much.

[Michael]

Yeah. And we're not. We're not supposed to be as accessible as we are.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Oh, dude, I got a phone in my. All day long.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Why? Oh, in case you have a thought, you need to tell me. Go yourself, dude. Leave me an answering machine message at the beep.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah, man. I just.

[Michael's Friend]

I don't see. I. I don't know. I'm. I'm a. I feel differently about capturing moments because for me, even though I'm not able to like fully relive that or whatever, it still brings me some kind of joy or, I don't know, nostalgia to it. Of like. Like when I was in Seattle, one of the very few videos I did take was. I was out on this beach. It's like seven in the morning, and it's so quiet and the waves are rolling in. And this. There's like a little island across the water there. And this little boat just comes, just floating by. And I got my phone out and I got that moment of just like this little boat coming in frame, taking his time, doing his little boat life, and then going out of frame, and that was it. And it's just like this little peaceful memory of being on that beach and being up early and remembering that hike. And so when I look at that video, I'm like, yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't feel exactly how it felt when I was there, but it's still. A lot of those feelings still wash over me about being like, oh, man. Yeah, that was real. That morning was really nice, and I really enjoyed that. And it was so peaceful, and so I'm able to have a piece of it.

[Michael]

Yeah, you're lying to yourself.

[Michael's Friend]

That's not. I'm not.

[Michael]

Oh, really? Cuz can I tell you what that moment was?

[Michael's Friend]

Sure.

[Michael]

You on your phone.

[Michael's Friend]

That's what the moment was for 15 seconds. Yep. Yeah.

[Michael]

And that's what you're gonna rewatch is you like this. That's the memory you captured.

[Michael's Friend]

That's. This is not the memory I captured.

[Michael]

Yes, it is.

[Michael's Friend]

I got that. But what I'm remembering when I'm looking at that video is being on that beach and being in that moment and like, the trees and everything else. And like, I'm not remembering this.

[Michael]

Hey, you are. I know that's what you're watching.

[Michael's Friend]

Are you too literal for nostalgia?

[Michael]

You're lying to yourself.

[Michael's Friend]

You don't have any nostalgia.

[Michael]

I have nostalgia. But I also understand that looking at this, a video I took, is not me looking at that moment. It's me looking at the video I took that took me out of the moment to capture.

[Michael's Friend]

Not for me. And I'm not lying to myself.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

I don't think of myself standing there like an being like, I got a boat. I think of the moment, how peaceful it was.

[Michael]

So peaceful that you thought, let me get my phone out.

[Michael's Friend]

So peaceful that, like, I want to take this with me.

[Michael]

You can't. You can't take it with you. Hello, my little bear cubs. We have a new sponsor, and that new sponsor is BetterHelp. Yes, BetterHelp is an online resource for therapy.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I don't know who would have guessed it. I don't know if you know about the show, but we're actually very pro therapy around here. Very pro therapy.

[Michael's Friend]

That is the rumor that's going around.

[Michael]

It's helped me a lot.

[Michael's Friend]

Tell me more.

[Michael]

It really has. You don't notice a change in me, Is that what you're saying?

[Michael's Friend]

I do.

[Michael]

Okay, then. Has it helped you?

[Michael's Friend]

Absolutely. I'm In Better help right now. And my therapist is awesome.

[Michael]

Your therapist sounds pretty great. I'm not gonna lie.

[Michael's Friend]

He did. I'm so happy with him. And like, whenever we have to reschedule or something changes, it's so easy. It's like literally like two clicks and it's done.

[Michael]

I have to call mine.

[Michael's Friend]

Boo.

[Michael]

It's terrible. But here's what I will say. I was always very much an in person therapy kind of setup for myself. Yeah, I'm on telehealth now. Way better.

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[Michael]

Doing therapy like from your couch or like where you're in your space, where you're comfortable? Dude, I'm. I'm doing way better.

[Michael's Friend]

That's one of the best parts of Better help is that I get to do it from my cozy little corner chair.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Dim the lights. I light a candle. It is therapy time. Yeah.

[Michael]

I don't ever want to go back to a therapy office again. So that's where we're at now. Since they are a new sponsor of ours, they were nice enough to give us a little discount code for you to use. So a little treat.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

If. If you're hearing this, maybe you're in between insurance and you would like to start some therapy, or maybe you've never been to therapy and you really want to try it out. Better Help's a really good start. They make it easy to find and pair up with somebody, and it's very affordable. So if you want to give it a shot, you can use the discount code they gave us. You can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy or just betterhelp.com and it'll ask you where you heard about it. Choose Secondhand Therapy. They'll give you 10 off your first month. Try it out. Start your healing journey. Change my life. To change your life.

[Michael's Friend]

I'm changed.

[Michael]

He's changing. Changing.

[Michael's Friend]

See, when you say, I want to, I should get my phone out. That makes it feel like I'm. Like, I should get my phone out and watch Tick Tock. It's so peaceful right now. No, I'm capturing.

[Michael]

Is that how it made you feel?

[Michael's Friend]

Made me think that way?

[Michael]

Here's the thing.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

You're lying yourself.

[Michael's Friend]

I'm not.

[Michael]

Because you also.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay.

[Michael]

Post many selfie videos of you. Like, oh, walking. Look at all the trees. Oh, look at the beach. Look at. Yeah, you're not present for any of that.

[Michael's Friend]

What you're talking about are these small, like, increments of time. I was on that beach for over two hours that morning. That I was doing the. The bird and the boats, like, updates.

[Michael]

How many phone calls or FaceTimes did you do?

[Michael's Friend]

One. I had one phone call too many. Hey, I agree. I agree. So I'm saying I agree, but finally, not lying yourself.

[Michael]

That was a good moment.

[Michael's Friend]

Anyways, I had a nice little reset until I came back to talk to you.

[Michael]

Yeah, until you were on your phone in a different city. Cool, man.

[Michael's Friend]

What is it? So the ideal getaway for you is just leave your phone back at the Airbnb and just be out in the world?

[Michael]

That's ideal. That's not realistic. Because I think you need your phone for navigation.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay, so you wouldn't. You're not capturing any life moments when you're out and about in the world.

[Michael]

Life? No, not life moments. Like I said, if I do, it'll be for, like, the photography of it or, like, the art of it. Yeah, but not for, like. I want to remember this and how. Hey, dude, I'll remember it. And if I don't, that's how life works.

[Michael's Friend]

And how is that?

[Michael]

Remember everything.

[Michael's Friend]

How is that a different distraction from what I'm doing? Whether I'm capturing it for nostalgia or you're capturing it for photography? How are those two different? Because you still have your camera or phone out.

[Michael]

I don't think it's that different.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay. Yeah.

[Michael]

Still on my phone.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

It was a test, and you passed. Shocking.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll never, like. Yeah, that's just not for me. I don't get that. People who. Or take a video walking, and they're like, yeah, oh, look, we'll go down this alley. Shut the up.

[Michael's Friend]

Really?

[Michael]

Shut up.

[Michael's Friend]

You don't ever want to share.

[Michael]

It's not. You're lying to yourself. It's not sharing.

[Michael's Friend]

What is that?

[Michael]

What about.

[Michael's Friend]

That's not sharing.

[Michael]

It's a desire for attention. It's a desire for people to envy you for a moment.

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, buddy, no. Well, I can't speak for everybody.

[Michael]

I'm not.

[Michael's Friend]

But I did.

[Michael]

I'm speaking for you.

[Michael's Friend]

I. I did. I took a little video walking down on the beach, and it wasn't for, like, look how cool I am. It was like, holy. Look what I found. I didn't know that beach was there.

[Michael]

I understand that's. At the surface, what you think is happening. I don't believe that.

[Michael's Friend]

That's crazy.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Michael's Friend]

What would I gain out of.

[Michael]

Oh, 15 likes. And you're like, dude, 15 people know I'm in Seattle. They think I'm cool now.

[Michael's Friend]

No.

[Michael]

Okay, that's what I think you like to be liked.

[Michael's Friend]

I do like to be liked. These are true things.

[Michael]

But in those moments, again, get below the surface with me.

[Michael's Friend]

I. I'm. I am. In that specific moment of like, look at this beach. I found that was a sharing moment. That was not a validation moment.

[Michael]

So I would say, if you want to share it, who do you want to share it with? Because you're like, I want to share this with everyone. No, you don't. Yeah, you're not sharing with anybody. You're putting it out in the world. You get your views, you get your likes. If you take a video and send it to three people, you're like, dude, how cool is this? Hey, I can get on board with that. But posting it on your thing, just. That's not sharing it.

[Michael's Friend]

Interesting.

[Michael]

You know?

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, I think I struggle with that because. Because I've just been in the public eye for my whole adult life. And so when I think about sharing something, I'm like, yeah, I'll put it on my story so, like, everybody can see it. I wouldn't think to send it to, like, three people or whatever. The. I would put up my story and hope that those three people see it. Is that weird?

[Michael]

Yeah, that's. I mean, I hope these three people say, or you just send it to them.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, I never would because. Oh, you know what?

[Michael]

Oh, let's. What? We've had this conversation 100 times.

[Michael's Friend]

This specific thing. I would never do that because guess what?

[Michael]

You don't bother anybody.

[Michael's Friend]

Exactly. I'm bugging you. Hey, why would I send you.

[Michael]

You posted a bunch of stories when you're like, look of your feet on a walk. You're bothering me.

[Michael's Friend]

And you have the option to either watch that or not. If I send that to your inbox.

[Michael]

Hey, if I. Hey, it shouldn't be on my story. Your dumb ass feet down the sidewalk, 6:32am hey, save it. In that moment, you're like, I want to share this with people.

[Michael's Friend]

No, that moment's just like, it's not validation. I'm not looking for likes. I'm just looking just like a check.

[Michael]

In for the public.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

All right.

[Michael's Friend]

I know.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Michael's Friend]

I don't know. I.

[Michael]

You think you're that important? People are like, what is he doing this morning?

[Michael's Friend]

No, it's not an importance thing.

[Michael]

Why would you need to check in?

[Michael's Friend]

I like it when other people do that. I like to see what other people are up to.

[Michael]

Yeah, you're nosy.

[Michael's Friend]

As though I am, but. So I like to check in sometimes. Because I like it when people check in.

[Michael]

What do you like about it?

[Michael's Friend]

Just, just getting a little window into what they're doing, what they're up to. I like that.

[Michael]

Okay, everybody.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, you don't like that? No.

[Michael]

Go live your life. And also. Yeah, it's not real, dude. You're choosing what to check in. Why don't you choose to check in when you have explosive diarrhea? No, I'm going to check when I got up early and I'm doing my self care. Ah, cool, man. Convenient. Check in the.

[Michael's Friend]

I check in when I'm not doing well.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah you do.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

Why?

[Michael's Friend]

I don't know. I, I, I don't know. I like it when other people do it. So I do it. I think other people might like it.

[Michael]

Hey, as long as they like it.

[Michael's Friend]

You know, I also like it. I'm a little, hey, I'm a little lonely. You know what I mean? So why not send a little update? It's just me, it's just me out here. So why not put out in the world? Like I'm on my little walk this morning.

[Michael]

Yay. Because if you, if you could learn to just be on your walk and enjoy it, maybe you'd be less lonely.

[Michael's Friend]

Most mornings I do. I don't post every morning.

[Michael]

Well, we don't need to defend the whole.

[Michael's Friend]

I'm not defending, I'm just saying it's not an everyday thing. It's not like a whatever. Just every once. Well, that's what I'm up to.

[Michael]

Thanks for sharing.

[Michael's Friend]

You're welcome. Yeah, I thought you'd like it.

[Michael]

I fucking hate that.

[Michael's Friend]

I know you do.

[Michael]

I fucking hate it.

[Michael's Friend]

Is it really because you think these people are posting? Not just me, but anybody that posts, like morning walk or whatever. You're like, do you think you're that important that I give a about your morning walk?

[Michael]

No, I think they're that afraid of being alone that they can't just go on a walk. They have to like be on their phone and then it's a good excuse to be on your phone. You're like, oh no, I'm like being motivational or I'm like, whatever, you're lying. You're, you're doing a thing because it, you feel a little bit better about yourself. I think that's what the floor, the root of it is. So yeah, I'm like, hey, just don't just do the walk. That's what's going to help. Yeah, but people can't do that. Yeah, we live in a Very. Look at me, world.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

Prom king. You literally were prom king, weren't you?

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. And homecoming king.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Same year.

[Michael]

Still riding high on that one, huh?

[Michael's Friend]

Let me post about it real quick.

[Michael]

I know it'll happen.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. I like to. Not only do I like to share, but I also have just been like. That was my job for 20 years, was to share. Yeah.

[Michael]

On stage.

[Michael's Friend]

Off stage, too. That's how you build content and everything else and, like.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I'm just saying that's wrong.

[Michael]

Yeah, I'll say it.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

So when Kevin Hart's, like, at the gym, 5am you're like, that's wrong. He shouldn't be. He should save everything. I just want to see Kevin Hart on stage.

[Michael]

When you see Dave Chappelle doing 5am at the gym.

[Michael's Friend]

I don't. Dave checks in every once in a while.

[Michael]

Who do you have more respect for as comedian?

[Michael's Friend]

That doesn't come into play for me. Of course not. Why would it? Why would I care if Dave Chappelle is, like, checking in every once in a while in his stories? And I'd be like, he's not a real comedian.

[Michael]

I don't think it would tie directly. But you. You think it's a coincidence? What, that someone who doesn't put every second of their life out for the world puts out better art? All right, we have a new sponsor.

[Michael's Friend]

Ooh.

[Michael]

The Maca team. Oh, you know about ma. Okay, I'm gonna be honest with you. I've been taking maca for, like, a little over a year now. Yeah, buddy. Well, you know, my sis. My girl's sister is a hippie.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And I was asking her, hey, what should I be taking?

[Michael's Friend]

She was like, a chill pill. Let's dance. Why hippie? Why hippie?

[Michael]

Chill pill? She doesn't like pharmaceuticals. That's why I'm on maca. No, I honestly, I did ask her. I was like. I'm kind of like. I was. I'm just gonna be honest with you. I was worried about my testosterone.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. And she's like, oh, take maca. It's great. And I. You want some tmi?

[Michael's Friend]

Sure.

[Michael]

After a week, started waking up with a little stiff again and haven't stopped since.

[Michael's Friend]

And we're not talking about your knees, huh?

[Michael]

No, we're talking about my ankles.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay.

[Michael]

That means penis.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And the place that I get my maca from called the Maca Team. I reached out to them, I said, hey, I just want you guys to know, it's a great product. And dude, the, the person on their social media is the same person who answered the phone. They're like a small business.

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, wow.

[Michael]

Yeah. Super legit. So if you guys want to try out some maca, which it's from Peru, it's a root, it's natural, it's not pharmaceutical. I really like it. I've had great results. I've noticed improvement in my mood. I've noticed improvement in my energy, in my sleep. I really like it. So you can go to themaka team.com secondhand therapy if you don't know how to spell maca, it's M A C a. So themaka team.com secondhand therapy they gave us a little discount code if you want to try it out, which I would recommend you do. I love it. Use code Bear cub and you get 10% off. So you want to try out some maca? Do it. The link will be in the episode description below. Promo code bear cub. Try out some maca. Get your dick hard when you wake up.

[Michael's Friend]

You know, I can't wait. Hey, if you're tired of hearing these ads, which I'm sure you are, you should head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to two episodes. You could be hearing this a week early along with acc, along with access to a an entirely different podcast. Some would say a better one called the other show.

[Michael]

It is fun.

[Michael's Friend]

It's non therapy related.

[Michael]

It is fun.

[Michael's Friend]

Super fun. Plus you have, plus you have early access to my new podcast series Happy not funny. And it's ad free episodes on that as well. Merch discounts. Also fun live show things where we interact with the audience.

[Michael]

Live streams is what he's trying to say. We are not going on tour.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, that's true. What did I say?

[Michael]

You said live shows.

[Michael's Friend]

Well, same same. You know, it's like a live show. Nope, it's like a zoom.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Michael's Friend]

Anyways, you'll have access to us in a more intimate manner.

[Michael]

Intimate.

[Michael's Friend]

How about that?

[Michael]

Intimate. There's no end.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, like the candidate. Like the candies.

[Michael]

Intimate.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Also, if you sign up, you get a little treat.

[Michael's Friend]

Oh yeah.

[Michael]

So check out the different tiers. One of the tiers is just if you're just here for secondhand therapy, you want no ads, we'll send you a dope little sticker. And I'm gonna be honest with you, a lot of time went into designing this sticker. Yeah, too much. You can argue too much dope sticker though. So you sign up for that tier, we'll send you a sticker, the next tier, if you want the other podcast, if you want bonus stuff from secondhand therapy, all the little extras, you get the sticker and we are going to send you a signed print designed by yours truly. That took way too much time. Still, way too much time. We'll sign it, we'll send it out to you, and then we have the top tier with the live streams. If you want to hang out with us a couple times a month, you get the sticker, the print, and we'll send you a T shirt that we are not selling or getting anywhere else. So check out Patreon. If you sign up, you get some treats and it's a good way to support the podcast.

[Michael's Friend]

We'll see you over there.

[Michael]

Thanks.

[Michael's Friend]

Makes me think of Bo Burnham.

[Michael]

Same thing.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. I love when you get around and you just prove my point for me. Oh, who else?

[Michael's Friend]

No, I like, but I'm just saying, like, we. It's multiple truths, though. We live in a world where.

[Michael]

You.

[Michael's Friend]

Kind of have to post to build community, build content, to build followers, to build ticket sales for people to come see you or get engaged in whatever you're doing. But then also there are the rarities, like a Bo Burnham that come along that don't ever post and still are able to do what they do. However, Bo was posting for a lot like this. No, posting thing is a new thing, I would say, since the pandemic. But he built his career posting on vine and Twitter and everything else. So, yeah, I don't know what comes first. The horse of the carriage. You know what I mean? Like, could he have done all of that without having to play the game?

[Michael]

I think so. Probably not as many people will have seen it.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But I think he still would have made inside. I think he still would have made all the other things he made. Yeah, it would have been harder for him to get the money for it and the quality or the venues or whatever. But. Yeah, I also think he's. He's kind of proved he's the point. I'm talking about of, like, he did all the things you're doing and then he's like, oh, that's fucking terrible.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

And put out the best shit he's ever done after.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. But I think not to get. We're getting way too into this. But just this is my last thought about it. Like those. But the money, the venue and the time and the peace that comes with that and the serenity of all of that. Hard work does matter when it comes to creating the best art of your life.

[Michael]

Who is that comedian that shot her special in her living room in front of her parents?

[Michael's Friend]

Maria Bamford.

[Michael]

What'd you think of it?

[Michael's Friend]

Incredible.

[Michael]

Next.

[Michael's Friend]

Now, did she have three Comedy Central presents and. Sure. Special. Like all that? Yeah, of course. So, like, all of that led to that.

[Michael]

So it's almost like she learned, like, oh, all the big shiny thing doesn't actually make the art good.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. But she was set up in a way that she was able to do that. That's what I'm saying. Like, these people are set up now. No, you can have the freedom to do that.

[Michael]

You can just do it. You can. You just have to be okay with not 10 million people seeing it. Are you doing it because you want to make a thing and put it out, or are you doing it because you want to get famous and rich?

[Michael's Friend]

I think when you make a thing and put it out, you want as many people to see it. I don't know if it's really about the money, but it's more about the eyes, about being like, hey, I made this thing, and I think it's great. I hope a lot of people see it.

[Michael]

If it's great, a lot of people are going to see it because people are going to share it. They're going to post about it, they're going to put their thought. Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. So it works. H. Interesting.

[Michael]

Yeah. So get off your phone, you know. Yeah. I mean, I like. It's. Yeah, it's a. It's a promotional tool, like Instagram is your publicist.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

It's not your journal. It's not your diary. You want to post three times a day, and it's clips of things you shot or you on stage or clips of the podcast.

[Michael's Friend]

I get it.

[Michael]

That's your publicist, but it's not your journal. It's not your diary. It's not for your feelings. It's. That's. That's a lie we tell ourselves to feel less alone, I think.

[Michael's Friend]

Interesting.

[Michael]

Yeah. And now with social. Everybody thinks they're interesting. Everybody thinks they're worth watching, and everything they have to say is important. Like, that's not real.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, it's annoying.

[Michael]

There's a reason you don't hear me. Outside of this podcast, I don't think I have nothing to contribute. Dude, you want to hear my thought? You want to hear my thoughts on what? Get the out of here. Dude, I got two podcasts. That's. I cannot imagine contributing more than that to anybody's.

[Michael's Friend]

Ears.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah. What the for.

[Michael's Friend]

Interesting.

[Michael]

Yeah. What are you thinking?

[Michael's Friend]

I don't know. I. Two things. Yeah. One, I feel more connected to. I'm gonna say artists because I don't care about just regular people posting all the time and not posting or whatever. I'm talking about like what we're talking about like a Bo Burnham or somebody like that or a director that I like or an actor or whatever. And you're talking about using Instagram as just PR and not for daily check ins or journal or feelings or anything like that. I feel way more connected and I enjoy those accounts more. Of the people that post Life.

[Michael]

Yeah, they're not posting Life, it's a performance. But yeah, I get it.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That's their publicity is to get you to feel connected to them.

[Michael's Friend]

That's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I real.

[Michael]

You don't know them, you're not connected to them.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, I realize that. But I enjoy those accounts more than just somebody who's just posting clips of their product. Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

It's. Yeah, it's all a sales tool. Yeah, for sure.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

There's a reason Kevin Hart does the gym and then the next 10 posts are Netflix on this film and Heartbeat Productions and.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael]

It's just as an algorithm.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, yeah. Second thought.

[Michael]

Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it?

[Michael's Friend]

Oh my God, are you? Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybody else. Sure.

[Michael]

Okay. All right, well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay? Okay.

[Michael]

It's called the Light phone.

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[Michael]

The light. Yeah, you seem to use it. The Light Phone. Also known some people call it a dumb phone. Anyway, it's a smartphone. It has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation. It has a calendar and a flashlight.

[Michael's Friend]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[Michael]

Kinda O. Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

I love that.

[Michael]

It has a pretty cool camera too. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got a dope camera on it. It's got a camera. Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough, they sent us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone. 3. Use code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[Michael's Friend]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[Michael]

Stop your doom scrolling. Be more present in life. Link down below, promo code, secondhand therapy. All lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, it just had me thinking about my own, like, what you're saying is, like, about, like, not commenting or doing anything outside the podcast or, like, what the do I have to say and stuff. And, yeah, for me, I'm just like. I don't know, like, things. I don't feel like I have anything to, like, add or contribute. You know what I mean? I'm not like, you should listen to what I'm saying. But also, like, things just pour out of me. And so I'm like, what do I do with all that stuff that pours out of me?

[Michael]

Oh, you control it because you have control over yourself. You're a grown man.

[Michael's Friend]

So the stories I want to write and share and stuff like that, I just go, nope, those are for me.

[Michael]

Write them.

[Michael's Friend]

Okay, well, that's what I'm saying is, like, things like that. Like, what do you do with those? I like, you write it. Yeah.

[Michael]

Well, I don't understand what you're asking. And then what do you do with the writing?

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Save it until you have a collection to put in a book. And then.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

Or if you don't want to write a book, start a medium page or, like, whatever you want to do with it.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But you want to do all of that. You want to write a book and have a blog and have it on your Instagram and, like.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, I want to do everything.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

That's the quickest way to do nothing.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. Struggle with that a lot.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Cooking a lot of things. Not eating, you know? I mean. Yeah. Yeah.

[Michael]

You'll write a book and give away every page, and then the year before it comes out, hey, my book's out. And they're like, we've read it.

[Michael's Friend]

It. We saw this on thread.

[Michael]

We read the whole thing already. Yeah. Yeah. I. I mean, this is what we're talking about, but. Yeah. I don't believe that it's pouring out of you. I think you look at this thing I did, and you want somebody to say, good.

[Michael's Friend]

Wow.

[Michael]

I really like that. I really related that, like, it's not.

[Michael's Friend]

It's not pouring out of you sometimes. Sure.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Michael's Friend]

Anyways, I started new meds.

[Michael]

Yeah. New meds are same meds bigger.

[Michael's Friend]

Same meds bigger. And I doubled my dose of Adderall.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

And I was a little nervous about it.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

And I was talking to my therapist about it, and we were talking about fear.

[Michael]

Okay.

[Michael's Friend]

And we got into, like, what is the Fear with that. And I was talking about, you guessed it, Mom. And about everything was worst case scenario. And about how not only it was worst case scenario, but everything was so big. Like, everything was death with mom. You know what I mean? Like, you can't drive in the rain because you'll. You'll wreck your car and you'll die. It wasn't just be careful driving in the rain, you know, it was like, hey, you can't run the oven while I'm not home because you'll burn down the house and you'll die. It wasn't be careful. Make sure the oven's off when you. After you're done using it.

[Michael]

You can't use the oven when I'm not home.

[Michael's Friend]

No, I wasn't allowed to use the oven.

[Michael]

Did you ever?

[Michael's Friend]

Once, and I've told this story. I didn't. I used the stove. I put instant jello on the stove top because I never made instant jello before. Yeah, I thought that's how you made instant jello.

[Michael]

Is that what it said on the box? I gotta tell you, Mama's onto something.

[Michael's Friend]

So I cooked this Jello, and then I thought we got a cool Jello down. So I put it in the freezer right away. And I think you can guess what happened.

[Michael]

What happened?

[Michael's Friend]

It exploded. And the freezer became just a jello cream pie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But do you ever think your mom.

[Michael]

Was just like, I gotta scare him because he's gonna this whole thing up. You can't drive in the rain. You're like, I got three speeding tickets in three weeks. She's like, I know, I know.

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, yeah. So everything was big. So that's why now I can't discern when things are small or big. So, like, you and I were talking about this the other day about, like, you know, I think we talked about a couple episodes ago with, like, if I leave shoes out in the hallway. And you're like, hey, just keep the hallway clear. That's about shoes. However, I can't look at it as that. It's big. It is. You don't want to be my friend. I'm messy. I'm a piece of shit. I'm terrible. Like, it's big. Like, it's not just get your shoes out of the hallway. It's small. Because if I were to. If my mother were to tell me that, like, hey, don't leave your shoes in the hallway. It would be like, don't leave your shoes in the hallway. I'll trip down these stairs. Michael and then I'll die. I'll fall down these stairs and die. If you leave your shoes in the hallway. So if I leave my shoes in the hallway, I kill mom. So, like, there was no. And there was never any correction with that. There was never any, like, coming back to talk to me about it or like, de. Escalating it or whatever. It was always just like, big and worst case scenario and left there. And so I have all this anxiety now over everything because everything is big. And it's hard for me to determine what matters and what doesn't matter and what's big and what's small and what is just a conversation or argument or a relationship ending conversation or argument.

[Michael]

And is that a head thing or a body thing? Because I would assume, you know.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, logically, I have to talk myself down logically. So it has to be a body thing, because I get all. Yeah, tense and my stomach starts turning and I'm just like, I gotta have a kiwi. Yeah. I'm like, man, I gotta fix this. Yeah. Yeah. Everything was big. And if there was any kind of punishment, it was always. It was always like. Like the silent treatment or like, disappointment or shame. And that always felt like abandonment.

[Michael]

So disappointment and shame, were those verbal or were they all silent treatment?

[Michael's Friend]

Those were verbal.

[Michael]

What do those sound like?

[Michael's Friend]

Disappointment. Just like Michael, you know, and then it would be whatever I did, you know, like, I told you not to leave those shoes in the hallway. What'd you do when I left him in the. I forgot. And you know what? I tripped over him this morning and I stubbed my toe. I almost fell down these stairs. If I would have fell down, I would have. And then it's just that. And so it's like, shamefully or disappointing, like, being put in my place with no, again, never any, like, hey, sorry I was upset earlier. Or, you know, it just. Was that forever?

[Michael]

Okay. So Mom's disappointed in you.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

What does that mean for you?

[Michael's Friend]

That means that she is going to, for lack of a better term, like, cut me off permanently. No, but I don't know that at the time. I don't know. She's not giving me a timer, you know, she's not, like, for two hours, you cannot hug me. You know, it's like. It's just cold shoulder, silent treatment, disappointment. And I don't have access to her or her love during that time. And so I think that's what's going to happen now and forever in my adulthood. I've always thought that, that that's what happens. Is you lose access to that person if you upset them. And so I try not to upset anybody.

[Michael]

Why is it hard for you to lose access to somebody temporarily?

[Michael's Friend]

Because. I don't know. It's temporary.

[Michael]

Even now.

[Michael's Friend]

Even now, if you and I get in an argument, I think you're done with me for good. And I don't want that. And logically, I still don't. I still can't understand that it's temporary. I still. Logically, even it. It makes sense that, like, you would leave for good. Just the other day, you were joking around. I came downstairs, and you said something. What'd you say? You said, oh, you asked if I.

[Michael]

Want to go thrifting.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. I go, you want to go thrifting? What'd you say?

[Michael]

I said. I said, actually, to be honest, I think we should spend less time together.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. Yeah. And I took you seriously because you.

[Michael]

Literally went, yeah, yeah, yeah, I hear you. Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Because in my head, that made sense. I was like, oh, yeah, I have been bugging him a lot.

[Michael]

What was bugging?

[Michael's Friend]

Just being around you.

[Michael]

Just existing.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. Just being around you and trying to be your friend around the house.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Checking in with you and, like, being like, hey, do you see this thing? And, hey, what are you doing? And like, oh, yeah, I'm bugging him. So you saying I think we should spend less time. I'm like, you got it. You. Hey, man, you won't see me the rest of the weekend. Yeah, I'll make sure.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

I was like, what the.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, dude. Yeah.

[Michael]

Yeah. That was wild.

[Michael's Friend]

Now can I tell you something even more up?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Had I taken that seriously and thought, like, this is a for real thing, you would not only not see me that weekend, I would spend less and less. Like, you would have to verbally then re. Engage with me to be like, hey, we should hang out more. I miss hanging out with you. Until that would happen. A buddy. You got a ghost in the house. You hear something upstairs, but you never see it. Like, I'm. I'm gone. Yeah. Because. And I think I'm. That's what it takes to protect the relationship. Even though I would be hurting and I'd be like, I miss my friend and I want to hang out with him. I wonder what he's doing, but my needs don't matter. It's your needs. You said, we're spending too much time together, so that means I go, bye, bye. Until you decide, hey, I miss my friend. Got it. Yeah. And logically, I don't Know how to turn that off yet? Yeah, yeah, Yeah.

[Michael]

I don't think you turn it off.

[Michael's Friend]

Well, you know what I mean, Like. Yeah, I don't. I can't logically be like, no, he just. Even if this was real, he just needs a couple hours to chill. Yeah, we're fine. Huh? Nah, man, you need a couple months maybe. I don't know what you need.

[Michael]

Okay, so let's say it was real. The idea of you asking a question. Can't.

[Michael's Friend]

Can't happen, buddy.

[Michael]

What would you want to ask? Or what would you want to say?

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, what? I do. What happened?

[Michael]

Okay.

[Michael's Friend]

But in that. And I don't think so, because in that scenario, I know what happened. I just bugged you too much.

[Michael]

Oh, you don't know what happened because you didn't ask, but you think you know.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. If you want to spend less time with me, that means that I'm around too much, so I need to be not around.

[Michael]

It's quite an assumption.

[Michael's Friend]

What else would I assume?

[Michael]

You wouldn't assume anything else. We know that.

[Michael's Friend]

What would you assume in that scenario?

[Michael]

I wouldn't assume anything.

[Michael's Friend]

You would ask.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

What would you say?

[Michael]

I would say, are you being serious? And if you're like, yeah, like, okay, why?

[Michael's Friend]

Really? Yeah, I'd be like, I just told you why. If you didn't tell me why.

[Michael]

You said, I want us to spend less time together.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, okay. Why? Which means we're spending too much time together.

[Michael]

I mean, you could look at that way, but it could also be, I think, like, we're hanging out a lot. Like, it's. I've noticed some distance in my relationship, or it's kind of saturating the podcast. You know, we're not.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

There's a lot of things.

[Michael's Friend]

So it's not always my fault, is what you're saying.

[Michael]

Uhhuh.

[Michael's Friend]

Huh. That. Now, that's interesting.

[Michael]

No, that's interesting.

[Michael's Friend]

Now that's a take. Okay.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

All right. Now that.

[Michael]

A lot of things.

[Michael's Friend]

Add that now those options don't even cross my mind.

[Michael]

I know.

[Michael's Friend]

Now, how do I.

[Michael]

Okay, but here, let me. Let me clear one thing up, because I think I missed. I probably would assume.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah, that.

[Michael]

Yeah, I probably would assume, but I would ask. I think I would assume.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah.

[Michael]

I mean, it's also. That's a pretty vulnerable thing. I think my. Why would probably sound like, what's your problem? Something like that. Because. Being like, why. That's a little too vulnerable for me at this point. I'll get there.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah.

[Michael]

But I would have to pat it with a little humor.

[Michael's Friend]

Oh, see? Yeah. I'm coming to you with hat in hand. You know what I mean?

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

I can't be aggressive or anything because you're all. Because for me, you're already upset with me, so how dare I be? Like, what the. Why?

[Michael]

Don't know that I'm upset with you.

[Michael's Friend]

But, hey, my body knows that you're upset with me.

[Michael]

Yeah, it does.

[Michael's Friend]

And so I go me. The thought of me even joking and being like, the.

[Michael]

Mm.

[Michael's Friend]

You're out of your mind.

[Michael]

That's wild.

[Michael's Friend]

Hat in hand. Please, sir, May I have an answer if you have time? I don't want to bother you. Please, sir.

[Michael]

I'll email you exactly.

[Michael's Friend]

Yes, sir. As you wish.

[Michael]

Damn. All because of Mama. Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Because I never got an explanation. I never got anything further explained. It was just emotions, no context.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

And that's why I like context now. Yeah. I need it.

[Michael]

You don't. You want it. You want it.

[Michael's Friend]

I want it real bad.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

Because without the context, I'm just bad boy. It's my fault. Back to the baseball thing. No, I hit. No, I got here with a baseball.

[Michael]

We're not going back to the baseball thing.

[Michael's Friend]

So what do I think? My guy doesn't like me. I did something to that guy. He hit me with a baseball.

[Michael]

Okay? And if that's true, that's also fine.

[Michael's Friend]

I know, I know. But I don't know.

[Michael]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Damn your mom. You up?

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. So we got to talking about, like.

[Michael]

To be honest, same.

[Michael's Friend]

Hey, twins.

[Michael]

Yeah.

[Michael's Friend]

We got to talking about, like, then this fear that she instilled in me.

[Michael]

It.

[Michael's Friend]

At the core of is for protection. Don't drive in the rain. You'll die. Why? Because she's afraid something's going to happen to her son. Hey, don't do this. Don't do. Because at all. All the roads lead back to protection. And my therapist hit me with this. He said, do you think that your mother put a lot of extra fear in you so that would carry over when she's gone?

[Michael]

Well, she did.

[Michael's Friend]

Yeah. And that me up.

[Michael]

Why?

[Michael's Friend]

Because that's exactly what happened.

[Michael]

And we know that. Jesus.

[Michael's Friend]

That's a bear.

[Michael]

It's not.