When Grief Finds You - Grief Part III | #109

Summary

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Secondhand Therapy | Ep. 109: "When Grief Finds You - Grief Part III"

Podcast: Secondhand Therapy
Hosts: Louie Paoletti & Michael Malone
Date: November 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Louie and Michael take a deep, candid dive into the complexities of grief and emotional processing, focusing especially on how the past and loss can resurface unexpectedly. Both hosts reflect on personal experiences with grief—Louie talks about losing his partner, while Michael unpacks his longstanding struggles with layered and unprocessed bereavement. The conversation is raw, self-aware, and at times combative but always underpinned by humor and vulnerability.

Theme:
How grief resurfaces unexpectedly, the nuanced differences in how people process loss, and the messy, nonlinear path toward emotional healing.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Differentiating Dream Processing and Meaning in Grief

• Dreams as Subconscious Processing:

  • Louie's stance: Dreams about deceased loved ones don't necessarily hold profound meaning; often, people are searching for significance that may not exist.

  • Michael points out the value of sometimes leaning into the emotional resonance of dreams, even if it’s just for comfort or insight.

    "When you dream of the dead, you want it to mean a visit or a connection... I'm not saying there's a blanket statement. I just don't know if I believe that."
    — Louie (11:03)

    "What if, instead of writing it off, you looked into it? You weren't even going to bring this up to your therapist."
    — Michael (12:22)

• Dream Example:

  • Louie recounts a dream set in a western saloon where he visited his late partner. Her father (who’s still living) was present and taking care of her, mirroring dynamics from real life after her passing.

  • Michael interprets this as meaningful, tying the dream’s details to real-world circumstances and unresolved roles.

    "For me, that's connection in the dream that has meaning in real life. Maybe it doesn't help you with resolve, but it's definitely connected..."
    — Michael (21:22)

2. Grief Acceptance vs. Lingering Pain

• Louie’s Journey:

  • He feels he’s accepted his partner’s death and is no longer angry about it; the real pain resides in actions or words from when she was alive.

    "I feel that I have accepted her death... It is a really sad, unfortunate thing that happened and there's nothing I could have done to change it."
    — Louie (15:36)

• Pain from the Living Past:

  • The most acute wounds are from unresolved conflicts or behaviors during the person's life, not from their actual loss.

    "The pain and the anger that I have with regards to her are things that happened when she was alive."
    — Louie (17:07)

3. The Nature of Moving Forward

• Emotional Debate:

  • Louie urges Michael to consider “moving forward” instead of “living for the dead,” arguing that holding onto grief becomes its own burden.

  • Michael shares the challenge of facing “a mountain” of accumulated and unprocessed grief, much of which began in childhood and was only fully recognized when life slowed down during the pandemic.

    "You live for the dead. I got tired of doing that. That's all I'm saying. It's not an insult. It's an observ[ation]."
    — Louie (44:03)

    "There's a giant pile of grief starting since I was ten. I never learned how to process that grief as a child. So then we flashforward to adulthood..."
    — Michael (42:08)

Metaphor for Grief: The Weightlifting Bench

• Michael likens his struggle with grief to lifting enormous weights at the gym, while Louie has a much lighter barbell—Louie suggests trying new ways to move the weight instead of fixating on lifting it the “right” way.

  "You're trying one way to move it, and it's not moving. What if you tried a different way?"
  — Louie (48:05)

  "I'm also at the gym...but it's, there's a pile of weight here..."
  — Michael (46:15)

4. When Grief Finds You

• Spontaneous Emotional Triggers:

  • Michael recounts being overcome by grief at Whole Foods when Christmas music, food smells, and a stranger calling for her son reminded him of his mother.

    "Sometimes it just finds you—I was at Whole Foods...I started crying and I had to get out of there. That is it finding me. I wasn't searching for it."
    — Michael (51:20)

• Avoidance vs. Feeling Through:

  • Louie challenges Michael’s tendency to “change the song” in moments of pain, suggesting that sitting with discomfort is a muscle that needs exercise.

    "How do you expect to learn to lift 300 pounds if you don't even try to lift 5?"
    — Louie (53:53)

5. Processing "Safe Passage" of Memories

• Louie shares his therapist’s advice: when painful memories can pass through without overwhelming emotional or physical reactions, that’s a sign substantial progress has happened in healing.

  "If your brain or your...body can have that memory arrive and not have a large emotional or physical reaction...then you've done a pretty good job of working through it."
  — Louie (54:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (Timestamps)

• On Dream Interpretation

  • "The dream...would drive other conversation related to the trauma of my last partner's death. It wasn't to read into the metaphors." — Louie (08:14)
  • "What if you looked into it? Like, you weren't even going to bring this up to your therapist." — Michael (12:22)

• On Accepting Loss

  • "I truly feel like I've accepted it...There's nothing I could have done to change it." — Louie (15:36)
  • "It's still sad, but it's okay." — Louie (16:36)

• On Carrying the Past

  • "One of us has a little trouble leaving the past behind, and one of us doesn't. I don't think that's a coincidence." — Louie (21:27)

• On Grief Accumulating

  • "It's been a part of my life and I've had to deal with and carry and never really taught how to process..." — Michael (32:45)

• Grief & Moving Forward

  • "You live for the dead. I got tired of doing that." — Louie (44:03)
  • "I don't know if I've consciously [decided] it's important to move forward." — Michael (43:58)

• Metaphor, Weightlifting and Grief

  • "You're trying one way to move it, and it's not moving. What if you tried a different way?" — Louie (48:05)
  • "There's a pile of weight here...I'm trying to lift weights..." — Michael (46:15)

• On Avoidance and Sitting with Emotion

  • "How do you expect to learn to lift 300 pounds if you don't even try to lift 5?" — Louie (53:53)
  • "I don't like that." — Michael (54:01)

• Learning to Let Memories Pass

  • "If [memories of grief] get safe passage through your system ... then you've done a pretty good job of working through it." — Louie (54:59)

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Key Segments & Timestamps

• [07:47] Therapy and Dream Interpretation
• [14:16] Acceptance of Partner's Death & Shifting Grief Focus
• [17:07] Living with Regrets from the Living, Not the Dead
• [21:09] Analyzing Dream Details and Their Possible Significance
• [29:08, 32:06] Debate: Connecting Dream Elements to Past and Moving Forward
• [35:42] Grief Pile-up & Realization During the Pandemic
• [46:05] Extended Weightlifting Metaphor for Grief Processing
• [51:14] When Grief Finds You in Everyday Life
• [54:01, 54:59] Reflections on Avoiding Pain and Letting Memories Pass

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Tone and Dynamic

The tone is honest, probing, and sometimes tense, but leavened throughout with humor and warmth typical of close friends who know one another deeply. Louie’s approach is more pragmatic and challenging, while Michael’s is emotional, reflective, and cautious. Their contrasting approaches provide a fuller spectrum of grieving experiences and showcase how difficult, vulnerable, and interpersonal the healing journey can be.

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Summary Takeaways

• Grief is highly individual, messy, and never truly finished; the past can reappear unbidden.
• The way people try to assign meaning (or not) to dreams about the dead reflects their broader approach to processing loss.
• Moving forward from grief doesn’t mean forgetting; it means allowing memories to pass without lingering pain.
• Supporting someone in grief means accepting their method—even if it doesn’t match your own.
• Sometimes all you can do is sit with the discomfort, and that's when true healing begins.

---

Transcript

[A]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod hello, my little bear cubs.

[B]

We have a new sponsor. And that new sponsor is BetterHelp. Yes, BetterHelp is an online resource for therapy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know who would have guessed it. Who would have guessed it? I don't know if you know about the show, but we're actually very pro therapy around here. Very pro therapy.

[A]

That is the rumor that's going around.

[B]

It's helped me a lot.

[A]

Tell me more.

[B]

It really has. You don't notice a change in me, Is that what you're saying?

[A]

I do.

[B]

Okay, then. Has it helped you?

[A]

Absolutely. I'm in Better Help right now and my therapist is awesome.

[B]

Your therapist sounds pretty great. I'm not gonna lie.

[A]

He did. I'm am so happy with him. And like whenever we have to reschedule or something changes, it's so easy. It's like literally like two clicks and it's done. I have to call mine Boo.

[B]

It's terrible. But here's what I will say. I was always very much an in person therapy kind of setup for myself. Yeah, I'm on telehealth now. Way better.

[A]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[B]

Doing therapy like from your couch or like where you're in your space where you're comfortable? Oh, dude, I'm. I'm doing way better.

[A]

That's one of the best parts of Better Help is that I get to do it from my cozy little corner chair.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dim the lights. I light a candle. It is therapy time.

[B]

Yeah. I don't ever want to go back to a therapy office again. So that's where we're at now. Since they are a new sponsor of ours, they were nice enough to give us a little discount code for you to use. So a little treat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If. If you're hearing this, maybe you're in between insurance and you would like to start some therapy. Or maybe you've never been to therapy and you really want to try it out. Better Help's a really good start. They make it easy to find and pair up with somebody and it's very affordable. So if you want to give it a shot, you can use the discount code they gave us. You can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy or just betterhelp.com and it'll ask you where you heard about it. Choose Secondhand Therapy. They'll give you 10 off your first month. Try it out. Start your healing journey. Change my life to Change your life.

[A]

I'm changed.

[B]

He's changing. Changing. Hello, my little bear cubs. And welcome back to another episode of Secondhand Therapy. We need to remind you that we are not therapists. We are not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy and this is not professional advice in any way.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Thank you for being here. We appreciate you. You're gonna hear some ads.

[A]

Oh, so many ads.

[B]

You're gonna hear some ads in this episode. And you know, it doesn't matter if you're listening to this. If you're watching it on YouTube, you could even be watching on Spotify. Now we're a video on Spotify podcast. You're gonna hear some ads. You're gonna see some ads. If you'd like to avoid that, you can go to patreon.com secondhand therapy pod. We have ad free episodes. You get early episodes and there's a couple other tiers. You get our non therapy podcast, you get live streams. We just did one. That was pretty good.

[A]

Yeah, it was super fun.

[B]

I actually surprisingly enjoyed that live stream the other day.

[A]

Yeah, you usually not. Not down for the hang.

[B]

Correct. What else? Oh, there's giveaways on Patreon. Now if you sign up for the first tier, which is ad free and early episodes, we're going to send you the greatest sticker ever made. If you sign up for the second tier, which is the non therapy podcast, the other shit show and all the bonus features for secondhand Therapy, we're going to send you the greatest sticker ever made and also a signed print. Greatest print ever made. Some might say. Some might say it's the greatest print ever made.

[A]

A lot of people are saying it.

[B]

Have we gotten nothing but positive feedback on the print and the sticker? Yes. Have people said, why are these signatures not worth anything? I did. I said that?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Worthless.

[B]

And then if you go to the top tier, which I don't want to say top, they're all much appreciated. If you want to go to the superior tier, where you're better than everybody else, we're gonna. You get to do live streams and hang out with us once or twice a month and we're gonna send you a T shirt.

[A]

Okay.

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And all this stuff, we don't sell anywhere. It's only for Patreon. Patreon.com secondhand therapy pod. It's a good way to support the podcast. Thank you.

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Contact us.

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Don't we also have merch available? Okay, tell them where they can contact us.

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You can contact us. You can send US Mail. You just got something. You just got. One of us got something in the mail and one of us did not.

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We got a text message the other day, had a picture of a donkey.

[A]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's so fun. Yeah, that's really cool.

[B]

It also had bit of a crisis message, so we cannot reply to it because we're not qualified. Yeah, sorry about that, but thanks for the donkey. How else can they contact us?

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You can send us physical mail through our PO Box, or you can send us digital mail and leave us voice notes. And sometimes we play them on the air.

[B]

Did you say you could send us digital mail that's known as email?

[A]

Yeah. Digital mail.

[B]

That would be dmail.

[A]

You can send this digital mail.

[B]

You can send us electronic mail, also known as.

[A]

Why? Why don't you make digital. That's what it is.

[B]

Just because you said a thing and realize how dumb you are doesn't mean that now everybody has to adapt to digital mail being good.

[A]

I've been saying digital mail on this show for weeks now.

[B]

You've been dumb every time. See, electronic mail is email. That's what the E is for. Did you know what the E in email was for? Tell me the truth stands for everyone. Yep. Sure does.

[A]

Everyone's mail. And everyone can get it.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

What?

[B]

It's pretty well known that net neutrality or Internet availability is not a global thing. So it's not for everybody. Now, if you want to contact us, all the information is either on the screen or it was, but it is in the episode description. We also have merch available secondhand. Therapypod.com we just dropped a bunch of new colors in the emotional support hoodies. Earth tones. Earth tone games. Strong Blair Earth tone Mood Cruiser.

[A]

Out.

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Tie dye hoodies are out. The tie dye hoodies are champion. They're very heavyweight. Very good quality. That's it. Secondotherapybot.com Another good way to support the podcast.

[A]

You think we have a big fan base in South Korea.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

What about North Korea?

[B]

Well, our podcast is for everyone.

[A]

Rated E. Rated E for electronic.

[B]

E for E. North Korea. They got pockets over there. All right, thanks for being here. I'm trying to. If I'm gonna tell you guys how my girlfriend died or not. So keep listening.

[A]

And.

[B]

I don't know. Hello, my little bear cubs.

[A]

And welcome back Secondhand therapy.

[B]

And we know that you had encouraged me. Well, I don't want to say encouraged. You had a very firm stance that this dream I had needed to be talked about in therapy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And yeah, I did, but it okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because my stance and I. I maintain the same stance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The dream. The only purpose the dream would serve in therapy is to drive other conversation related to the trauma of my last partner's death. It wasn't to read into the metaphors of the dream or anything like that.

[A]

Yeah, because we were talking about it a little bit and you were saying that. Okay, so dreams. The meaning of dreams don't hold any value for you.

[B]

Yeah, I think. I think. I think that. I think I would stand by that.

[A]

Yeah. So there's no.

[B]

There is. I think there can be value in dreams. I think because your dream.

[A]

What?

[B]

Your dreams are you processing things subconsciously in your sleep.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I think there is. There can be value there, but I don't know. When it comes to dreaming about the dead, I think we tend to try to find or bring meaning to it, and I just don't know if I believe that.

[A]

So what. What dreams would then would qualify for value?

[B]

I mean, you had a great dream. You're not gonna remember it because it was a couple years ago. You were in the throes of a relationship.

[A]

That sounds like me. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And you had a dream that your partner and another person related to your connection were on like an island, for a better lack of a better term.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

And you were trying to swim to get there. And no matter how hard you swam, you just couldn't get there. And your partner wasn't helping you either.

[A]

That's helpful.

[B]

Yeah, to. Because, you know, in that at that time, you were pretty trying to figure out if that relationship was for you and to understand that subconsciously you feel like you're truly fighting for something that only you're fighting for.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's helpful.

[A]

So.

[B]

Maybe what I'm saying is tough decisions, dreams can help.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Whether that be personal, professional, maybe tough decisions helps.

[A]

Now, let me ask you this. Nah. Could this stance. This. There's no value in dreaming about the dead.

[B]

I'm not saying there's no value. I'm saying I generally. Right.

[A]

You think you're searching for meaning.

[B]

I think when you dream of the dead, you. Yeah, it's.

[A]

You want it to mean.

[B]

You want it to mean a visit or a connection or a check. Like we want it to mean something or. Yes. I'm not saying there's a blanket statement. I don't know that I can stand by that. Sure.

[A]

So do you think that this feeds into what we were talking about a couple weeks ago, which was.

[B]

No.

[A]

Your. You don't even know what I was.

[B]

Gonna Say something stupid.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Something really smart.

[B]

Okay, let's hear it. Your.

[A]

Your ability to.

[B]

Believe.

[A]

So, like, this idea of believing that this could be a visit or this could mean something. You're like, nah. Nope.

[B]

What? I don't think I understand. Are you referring to compliments?

[A]

When we were talking, yeah, the conversation started with compliments, but just like the idea of, like leaning into the belief of something good instead of brushing it off as fake or inauthentic or whatever. Instead leaning the other way. So in this dream scenario, what if you leaned into like. Yeah, this could mean something. This could mean that they. This has meaning or that they are trying to visit me or whatever.

[B]

What if I lead into that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think my life would be exactly the same. I know. You hate that answer so much.

[A]

I know.

[B]

Hey, nothing would change. You disagree with that too?

[A]

Logically, yeah. Duh. It's a dream. Nothing changes either way, you know?

[B]

So unless.

[A]

Unless you're dreaming of Powerball tickets. You know what I mean?

[B]

So what? I would. I would feel different?

[A]

I'm saying you might. You might feel different or it might give you some kind of message or help you with decisions or closure or X, Y, and Z. Because instead of writing it off as like, nah, that doesn't mean anything. What if you looked into it? Like you weren't even going to bring this up to your therapist?

[B]

Yeah, I didn't think it was. Sure. Like I said, the only value I thought was driving things that I. I have unpacked or talked about previous therapists.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I haven't talked about with my current one. It would drive conversations toward that. That was the only value I really saw in it.

[A]

Right. But you find value in other dreams.

[B]

So I didn't say I. I think you can.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This dream, I did not think it was valuable to bring up in therapy. Right.

[A]

And normally you wouldn't because it involves the dead.

[B]

Maybe. I don't know. I don't know if I can stand by that, but. Well, you know what, dude?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hey, listen up. Scratching.

[A]

The.

[B]

The realization I had. And we talked about this a little bit, but I talked about it in therapy a little more. When it comes to my last partner that passed away, I feel. Yeah, I'm gonna stick with feel. I feel that I have accepted her death and. I don't feel angry about her death. I truly feel like I've accepted it. There was a. A long time, a few years, where I was really angry about it and I really did want an explanation or an answer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How a 35 year old healthy woman can just die. But I don't feel that anymore. Yeah. Now it's. I'm able to see it and it feels clear that it is a really sad, unfortunate thing that happened and. There's nothing I could have done to change it. So when it comes to this dream that I had about her, I don't have questions with regards to her death anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's still sad, but it's okay. The pain and the anger that I have with regards to her are. Things that happen when she was alive.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Some things that she put me through or that she did or that she said that really, really hurt me at the time and that still really hurt me now. And the dream that I had did not have meaning for what I still need to work through with regards to that time in my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, Yeah.

[B]

What?

[A]

I just. Because you told me about the dream and so there's all these like little things in there and to just.

[B]

Hey, there's not.

[A]

Really. Okay. I. I want to bring something up, but it's. It's in the dream and I don't know if you want to share any parts of it or not.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

There was a part that I. I know it doesn't have to do with the questions that you had that you already feel resolved. Right. So when we're talking about meaning and I'm saying that there's like all these like little things in there, you'd mentioned that there was. It's. It's at a house, it's out of house. Right.

[B]

Isn't this like, like an old western, like saloon town?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I was there to pick up something that I had bought off, like a Facebook marketplace.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And I just had this idea. I was like, yeah, I should actually go visit her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. And I knew exactly where she was and where to find her. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But you'd mentioned that her, her father was there and he was. And she said, she mentioned that he'd been helping her out.

[B]

Yeah. He'd like to look after her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, to my knowledge, her father has not passed away.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah. But just.

[B]

By that part, my therapist was like, she goes, you know, it's a moment. I guess I'm glad you're not a Christian and you're not talking about the Almighty Father and how you. That's pretty great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I was like, I guess you could draw that, but didn't even occur to me.

[A]

Yeah, that also didn't occur to me.

[B]

Sorry, go ahead.

[A]

I just Mean, like, even moments like that where. And I know this just from knowing you. Like, after it happened, you and her father were kind of left, like, Taking care of things a little bit. So for me, that's connection in the dream that has meaning in real life. And maybe it doesn't help you with resolve or anything like that, but it's definitely connected to some sort of reality.

[B]

Current reality.

[A]

I don't know. That's where it gets foggy. Well, because it's a dream.

[B]

Let me know when I can finish. Instead of trying to guess what I'm gonna say all the time, you.

[A]

Oh, I wasn't trying to get. I was trying. Finishing my thought. Go on.

[B]

Well, one of us has a little trouble leaving the past behind, and one of us doesn't. And I don't think that's a coincidence for you, connecting this dream to a place I was in six years ago. I think that. I think I got to a point in life and in grief that I wanted to move forward. And I think you're doing everything you can to not move forward because you think it's hurtful to do so. And with that perspective that I have, it makes sense to me why you would be able to tie. Find meaning in a dream about somebody that I grieved very deeply and painfully over. Are you taking Maka yet?

[A]

I. I am, and it's pretty cool. Yeah, I'm only on day three.

[B]

Yeah. Which one are you taking? You on the black. Yeah, I do the black too. I do the black and I do the tri blend.

[A]

Oh, you do too.

[B]

I do too. Okay, technically, three, because the blend is a blend of three. Okay, well, so if you don't know about maca, it is a root native to Peru. It grows in three colors. Black, red, and yellow. Or yellow. Or yellow. Yellow or yellow. I take the black, and I take the tri blend. My girl takes the red, and you take the black.

[A]

I do.

[B]

Typically, yeah, men take the black, women take the red, and then you intersperse the triple end. But it has a lot of benefits. I've been taking it daily for a little over a year. I have noticed a lot. Mood, skin, hair, energy.

[A]

If you've heard.

[B]

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[A]

I've had a lot of improvements. Yeah, all true.

[B]

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[A]

Oh, fancy.

[B]

So yeah, if you want to try some maca, try it out, dudes. Try the black ladies. Try the red or try the try. But at least go to the website, read about it, see if you might want to do it. It's not pharmaceutical. It's all natural. I've been taking it for over a year. I like it. You're three days in, you're less annoying. So we did it.

[A]

We did it.

[B]

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[A]

Hey, if you're tired of hearing these ads, which I'm sure you are, you should head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to episodes. You could be hearing this a week early along with accent, along with access to a. An entirely different podcast. Some would say a better one called the other shit show.

[B]

It is fun.

[A]

It's non therapy related.

[B]

It is fun.

[A]

Super fun. Plus you have, you have early access to my new podcast series, Happy not funny. And it's ad free episodes on that as well. Also fun merch discounts. Also fun live show things where we interact with the audience.

[B]

Live streams is what he's trying to say.

[A]

We are not going on tour. Yeah, that's true. What did I say?

[B]

You said live shows.

[A]

Well, same same. You know, it's like a live show. Nope, it's like a zoom.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Anyways, you'll have access to us in a more intimate manner.

[B]

Intimate.

[A]

How about that?

[B]

Intimate. There's no end.

[A]

Yeah, like the candy, like the candies.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah.

[B]

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[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So check out the different tiers. One of the tiers is just if you're just here for secondhand therapy, you want no ads, we'll send you a dope little sticker. And I'm gonna be honest with you, a lot of time went into designing this sticker. Yeah, too much. You can argue too much dope sticker though. So if you sign up for that tier, we'll send you a sticker. The next tier, if you want the other podcast, if you want the bonus stuff from secondhand therapy, all the little extras, you get the sticker and we're gonna send you a signed print designed by yours truly. That took way too much time. Still, way too much time. We'll sign it, we'll send it out to you and then we have the Top tier with the live streams. If you want to hang out with us a couple times a month, you get the sticker, the print, and we'll send you a T shirt that we are not selling or getting anywhere else. So check out Patreon. If you sign up, you get some treats and it's a good way to support the podcast.

[A]

We'll see you over there.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

Two things, usually. One, sometimes the past finds you. You don't have to go looking for it.

[B]

Meaning?

[A]

Meaning that maybe you're not actively thinking about that or have thought about it in a long time. That doesn't mean.

[B]

I wouldn't say I haven't thought about it.

[A]

I mean, the connection with the father and this and that. Like, maybe that little detail hasn't been thought about in a while or whatever.

[B]

He texted me a few months ago.

[A]

But yeah, it still happens. Right? Like, and you're in a dream state, and so you're not really in full control. And so sometimes things find you even when you have resolved or have moved on or whatever.

[B]

Like, so what are you. What are you submitting that found me that I'm not seeing or not accepting?

[A]

I think what you're taking away from what I'm saying is that you're still dwelling on something that has to do with that or this. I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying that there is a connection there that's interesting between him taking care of her in the dream and the way things played out in life. That's all. But for you, you're like, nope, I've moved on. That's not a thing. And I'm like, no, no. I'm saying that there's a connection of reality and dream. There's. Right.

[B]

But no, okay, this is another time where I get frustrated with you. If you could just ask some questions. What was their relationship throughout her life? Did he feel he had to take care of her? Were they close? Were they not? Like, there's a lot of other things that you don't know because you don't ask.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That would suggest different things for the dream.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That's all. So that's why I'm been waiting for you to be like, oh, well, how could I be wrong? Why?

[A]

What was it? And you just. I've been waiting for you to merge. You can just share those things. This is where we get. This is where we butt heads. You can just share those things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When I bring up that subject, you can just say, yeah, that's interesting. But, you know, in Real life. Like her dad really wasn't. Blah, blah, blah. Or. Yeah, that does make sense because her dad. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

[B]

Yeah, I could, but I don't. Yeah, I don't. I don't like to. I don't merge because like we talked about off air, you often merge when I'm not asking you to merge. So I'll merge when I get a merge when I get a wave. And that wave is a question. Yeah, I don't. I don't. I don't like to just like. Because I don't know if your thoughts done. If you're leading somewhere. I'm not going to just merge. Yeah, that's not how I converse. Yeah, yeah. Anything else from the dream?

[A]

So what was their relationship? Oh, Jesus Christ.

[B]

Wait, what was. Two things you said. One, the past sometimes finds you most basic. You could have said right there. Go ahead. What's the second one?

[A]

This is that defense I like. Keep it coming. Put. Put that wall up.

[B]

It's not a wall. It's just like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think people listening can tell that I'm the defensive one right now. Yeah. What's the second thing?

[A]

You've brought this up. You bring this up when we talk about grief and I. Nah, it's not worth it. Go on.

[B]

Really? What do you mean it's not worth it? It's gonna be content.

[A]

I don't know. I already feel like we're in a weird spot and. Yeah. I don't know.

[B]

No, say it. And stop assuming you think you know what the reaction is going to be.

[A]

I don't even know how to say this. Everybody grieves different. Grief is different for everyone and.

[B]

And nobody's good at it.

[A]

Nobody's good at it. And it's not a competition. I have a lot of it, and I think it's unfair sometimes when you throw a blanket statement like you're not ready to move forward. And I have a lot of. A lot of it starting young. It's something that is. It's been a part of my life and I've had to deal with and carry and never really taught how to process and. Yeah, it's hard to hear sometimes when you have a blanket statement like that.

[B]

And I'm like, okay, would you like some context?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I was speaking specifically to the grief of your mother, not your ability to grieve.

[A]

Yes, but the grief with my mother is not just that. It's compounded with everything. All the other. It's a big pile of grief. It's not just like, oh, here's mom's grief, and then here's everything else, like it is all together, But. Yeah. You look angry.

[B]

I'm not angry.

[A]

What do you. I'm confused how.

[B]

I'm confused how grief is a general thing for you.

[A]

It's. Here's a better way to say it. It's not a general thing. It's on backorder. You know what I mean?

[B]

Like, not a better way to say it. Try a third way.

[A]

There's residual grief there.

[B]

Meaning?

[A]

Meaning that there is still a giant pile of grief that has not been processed yet. And my mother's grief got added on to that pile. So there's a lot of grief to get to and so to. I don't know how to separate them individually because there's so much of it.

[B]

So when did you learn how much of it there was?

[A]

During the pandemic. Really?

[B]

Okay. Your mom had been done for five years at that point?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm trying not. I'm trying not to react right now.

[B]

I'm not saying you did anything wrong. I'm just saying you're ma. You're making a statement of. Well, it's back ordered. I have to get to the. The other stuff first. There's no order.

[A]

I'm not saying there's an order. I'm not saying that there's.

[B]

You know what back ordered means, right? Do you need a break?

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What's the answer you want from me?

[B]

I haven't asked you a question.

[A]

Sure you have.

[B]

What did I ask?

[A]

Why aren't you over it yet?

[B]

I didn't ask that. I know that's what you heard. That's not what I said. Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it? Oh, my God. Are you?

[A]

Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybody else. Sure.

[B]

Okay. All right. Well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone, okay?

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It's called the light phone.

[A]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[B]

The light. Yeah, you seem to use it. The light phone. Also known some people call it a dumb phone. Anyway, it's a smartphone. It has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation. It has a calendar and a flashlight.

[A]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[B]

Kinda.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I love that.

[B]

It has a pretty cool camera too. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got a dope camera on it. It's got a camera? Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough. They sent Us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone. Three, use code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[A]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[B]

Stop your doom scrolling. Be more present in life. Link down below. Promo code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world. I said I got to a point in my grief where I decided it was important for me to move forward. And I don't think you. And I think you avoid that because moving forward from your mom's death would mean that you forgot about her or left her behind or that would hurt her feelings. And I do believe that.

[A]

Yeah, there's a piece of that in there. Cool.

[B]

So we agree. So what is your problem?

[A]

But questions, like pushing questions, challenging questions, like so. That was so. Even so.

[B]

So here's a pandemic. Just. Just state the quote. You don't have to.

[A]

I am.

[B]

No, you're mimic. Mimicking a tone that didn't happen. So just state the question. Sure, I understand how you heard it. You heard it. It was very attacking. You didn't like it. I understand that. But just like, let's just have a conversation without trying to escalate. That's what I'm trying to do. I would ask you do the same. That's all.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

When you ask challenging questions like. So that was during the pandemic. So you knew about it for five years at that your mom had been.

[B]

Done for five years at that point.

[A]

Yep. So what is the intention of that? If it's not to push, to say, what's the hold up?

[B]

Well, you had said that. What I heard was that you are so, for lack of a better word, stuck with grief because your mom died. And then you learned there was so much grief before it that you have to do this first. It's back ordered and it's all together. That's what I heard. So what I'm saying. I know you didn't know you had all this grief in you before Mom. I'm trying to understand. Well, your mom had been dead and then you learn about all this other grief and now you're saying you can't focus on moving forward from mom's grief because you have this other pile to deal with now. That's what I heard you. That's what I thought you were communicating.

[A]

To me using the term. This is where we got caught up in a miscommunication with the literal term of backorder. I'm not saying back order, that those orders come first. I'm saying that there's just been. There is a lot. There's a giant pile of grief starting since I was 10. I never learned how to process that grief as a child. So then we flash forward to adulthood, and you're gonna. You always love this. But, like, I was always on the go, and so there's no time to process anything. I'm just, go, go, go. And so when things slow down during the pandemic, yes, mom has been dead for five years, but I'm still touring that whole time. I'm still auditioning, I'm still pitching shows. I'm still, like, living my life in Go, go, go.

[B]

As a choice.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

So I would. I would submit you were avoiding how you were feeling by doing those things.

[A]

Sure. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And.

[B]

Well, you're presenting it as, well, life through. No, you chose these things. You chose to avoid it, which I get.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Pretty common thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So what I'm saying is, yeah, the recognition of all this grief happened when life slowed down during the pandemic. And it's not that those orders come first. It's just that, like, they're piled up. And so it's not just like, oh, mom died. Well, let's process this and get over it. It's like, oh, hey, remember when you found dad? Let's talk about that. Let's do that. Let's, you know, let's visit Grandma and let's visit that trauma and, like, all that stuff. And so it's like, it's. It's. There's a pile waiting on me, and it's hard for me to separate them individually and be like, okay, I'm just going to focus on this. I mean, just in the past couple of years, you know, even on this podcast, we started talking about, like, this is the first examination I've had of, like, looking at my father in an honest way. I was 40, 39, 40 when we were talking about that. So, yeah, there's a. There's a mountain of it.

[B]

So what? Of all the grief that you have.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Have you decided it's important to move forward and not carry with you anymore?

[A]

I don't know if I've consciously done that.

[B]

That's all I'm. You live for the dead. I got tired of doing that. That's all I'm saying. It's not an insult. It's an observ.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I don't understand. Is that your honest response, or are you. Are you feeling that we're fighting?

[A]

No, I just. Everything I. All. Yeah, Everything I am even saying, like, I don't know. I don't know.

[B]

Okay. I. There's nothing for me to respond to there, so I don't.

[A]

I know. It just. Everything I'm would say, it just feels like it's not a competition. I'm just. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I don't.

[A]

It's.

[B]

I don't feel that we're competing. Do you feel that we're competing?

[A]

No, but here's how I'm receiving it. I know you love metaphors.

[B]

Only bad ones. Pizza?

[A]

No.

[B]

Oh, thank God.

[A]

We're at the gym.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And you got 25 on each side, and you're ripping through it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I sit down on the bench, and I've got 300 on both sides. And you're like, why can't you lift that? And I'm like, buddy, I'm trying. And you're like, I'm. I'm getting through it. No problem. I'm like, yeah, I've got £300 on here. And you're like, yeah, I'm choosing to lift weights. Are you choosing to lift weights? And I'm like, I'm trying to lift weights. And you're like, no, you're not. You're not choosing to lift weights. And then you sit back down and you have 25 on each side, and you're ripping through it. And you're like, see, I'm choosing to lift weights. And I'm like, I'm also at the gym. I'm choosing to lift weights. But it's. There's a pile on each side. There's a pile of weight here. And it feels like you're like, why.

[B]

Can'T you do that?

[A]

I'm like, I don't know. I'm. I'm trying. And you're like, no, you're not. If you're trying, you'd be lifting that weight.

[B]

Can I tell you what I'm actually saying?

[A]

Sure. Yes, please.

[B]

So you got £300 on each side.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm going, have you tried a different way to lift that? Maybe with your legs? Why are you curling it? Maybe your legs are stronger. Maybe if you put it down and pushed it. The idea is to move the weight, not lift it the way you see that guy doing it, not lifting it the way you think you're supposed to. The goal is to move the weight. And you're trying One way to move it, and it's not moving. What if you tried a different way?

[A]

Yeah, I like that.

[B]

Just gotta listen.

[A]

I am listening.

[B]

Gotta listen and not think I'm attacking you all the time.

[A]

If I were to say a blanket statement like you said.

[B]

It wasn't a blanket statement. Go ahead. It's not.

[A]

If I were to say, well, you know, I've resolved this, but, you know, I know that you refuse to move forward.

[B]

Not even close to what I said.

[A]

What did you say?

[B]

What did I say?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I said I got to a point in my grief, that it was important for me, and I was intentional about. I was intentional about moving forward. And I think you have avoided that. And I stand by that. I do believe that speaking to the death of your mother, I think you will do. You have been doing everything you can to avoid moving forward. And instead of letting it define you, just carrying it with you, Your life is still honoring that grief. You honoring grief. That's adding another 300 pounds, thinking, I'm. I'm going to get strong. Hey, all you're doing is adding weight that you can't lift. How can you move forward when all you. When your priority is honoring it. You can't leave something behind or just carry it with you if you keep stacking it on your shoulders. So what would I say if you said that to me? I would say, I don't understand what you're saying. Or I would say, meaning. Thoughts or feelings. You look very pensive.

[A]

Yeah, I just. I'm trying to think of, like, I don't know. I don't feel like I'm still doing that. And.

[B]

Yeah, I could be wrong. This is my perspective. And I told you that's my belief.

[A]

Yeah. And I. Circling back to, like, sometimes it just finds you. Like, that's what I'm trying. Like, You and I talked about this, and just the other day, I was at Whole Foods, and they're playing Christmas music, and I can smell them cooking food. I can smell the chicken and the mashed potatoes and stuff that they have in their little fresh market thing. And so it smells like home cooking, and there's Christmas music playing. And then I hear this older woman calling out for her son who just happens to be named Michael. And I had to get out of there. I started crying, and I had to get out of there. That is it finding me. I wasn't searching for it or honoring grief or doing whatever. It found me. And this is more like going into questioning about processing. Like, I don't know what to do about that. There are certain songs I can't. Like, Christmas songs I can't listen to and things like that. Like I did. I feel like it'll always just find me somehow, randomly, no matter how much. No matter how strong I get, no matter how many times I go to the gym. Like, it's. She's gonna find me somewhere and beat the out of me. And then. And then what?

[B]

So at Whole Foods smells, the woman yelling out. And what was. What was your response?

[A]

I cried and then I left. I was like, I gotta get the out of here.

[B]

A song comes on.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That you, as you say, can't listen to. What do you do, change it?

[A]

What if you just said avoidance?

[B]

What if you quit running?

[A]

And do what? Be a mess? Cry?

[B]

Like, huh?

[A]

Jesus. Why?

[B]

Yeah. Hey. Hey, Real quick. Oh, you feel the feelings?

[A]

I'm still feeling them. Okay.

[B]

Are you feeling him in a flash in the pan, and you throw the pan out the window and go.

[A]

So we almost had a fire.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

You're saying I have the fire.

[B]

How do you expect to. How do you expect to learn to lift 300 pounds if you don't even try to lift 5? Dude.

[A]

I don't like that.

[B]

Oh, doing the hard thing. I know.

[A]

I know you're gonna say it.

[B]

I know you're gonna. Knew I was gonna say it. Rash.

[A]

Poety.

[B]

Yeah, dude, you can't. I was on the go. I was on the road.

[A]

Huh?

[B]

Running. Yeah, you run, dude. It's gonna hurt.

[A]

She's a runner. She attracts stuff.

[B]

My boy's a track star.

[A]

Oh, dog. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I get leaving Whole Foods. Nobody wants to cry in public. That sucks.

[A]

Buddy. You can't be crying at Whole Foods.

[B]

Yeah. Cried at Costco.

[A]

Once cried at a Kohl's. I think Kohl's is, like, somebody's trying to spend Cole's cash and you're in the corner.

[B]

Like, how about Mervyn's?

[A]

What the is a Mervyns?

[B]

Damn dog? Your mom would have loved merman.

[A]

Oh, buddy. Could she order online?

[B]

No, they went out of business for online shopping. Well, what else is I gonna. Oh, yeah, my therapist, when I was talking about being okay with feeling okay with her death, but still having anger and pain from things that. When she was alive. Yeah. My therapist said something that I've been thinking about and how my therapist said, how she dictates if she has worked through something is when the memory hits her. Because, as you said, things will find you. And if it gets safe passage through your system. So if your brain or your. I mean, more so your body. If you can have that memory arrive and not have a large emotional or body physical reaction to it, if it has safe passage through you, then you've done a pretty good job of working through it. And when I think of my last partner's death, It has safe passage, And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.