Why Men Struggle With Vulnerability | #106

Summary

Secondhand Therapy | Ep. 106: Why Men Struggle With Vulnerability

Main Theme / Purpose

In this episode, hosts Louie Paoletti and Michael Malone respond to a heartfelt listener email about why men often struggle with vulnerability, emotional honesty, and communicating their inner world. The show uses humor and real talk to discuss themes of abandonment trauma, masculinity, therapy, and why personal growth can be so difficult—especially for men. Through self-reflection, sharing their own histories, and unpacking social and emotional conditioning, the hosts examine the roots and repercussions of male emotional stoicism and offer guidance for others navigating similar challenges.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Email: The Catalyst for Masculinity & Vulnerability Discussion

• [08:32-13:33]
  A 34-year-old male listener from "Big Prairie, Ohio" writes in describing long-standing mental health struggles rooted in childhood abandonment by his father.
  • He lists: self-loathing, depression, social anxiety, codependency.
  • Outwardly, he has a happy marriage, four kids, financial stability, but feels emotionally unfulfilled and unable to express this—especially to his wife.
  • He fears burdening others, minimizes his struggles by comparing them to others, and has never told anyone about his internal battles.
  • Seeks advice but isn’t in therapy and is unsure if he “needs it.”

2. Why Men Keep It Inside: Social & Internalized Barriers

• [13:38-14:57]

  • Michael acknowledges many men feel as alone and stuck as the letter writer, suffering in silence due to social norms and personal shame.

  • Notable Quote:

    “Unfortunately, I know from experience that a lot of men are in that position… really struggling, feel like they don't have anyone to talk to. And they keep it locked inside and it grows like a cancer.”
    — Michael ([13:41])

  • Louie notes emotional secrecy and internalizing pain lead to unhealthy outcomes (“That’s why you have a heart attack at 45.” [14:00]).

3. The “System” and the Myth of Achievement

• [14:57-15:27]
  • The hosts observe that men are conditioned to believe checking external boxes (job, marriage, kids) will produce happiness, but “that’s not what’s going to make you happy.”
  • Notable Quote:

    “You did everything that they told you to do to be happy and you figured out that it doesn’t work.”
    — Michael ([15:12])

4. To Share or Not to Share?: Talking to Partners and the Limits Thereof

• [15:40-16:21]

  • Balancing openness with partners against expecting them to fill every support role.

  • Therapy cited as crucial third-party support; partners can’t be “your everything.”

  • Advice: A gentle approach: Tell your partner you’re struggling, validate your relationship, and state your intention to seek therapy.

  • Notable Quote:

    “I’m thinking of maybe getting into therapy… It’s nothing to do with you. I'm not questioning our relationship. I love you. I love the kids. I'm feeling off, and I just need to talk to somebody about it.”
    — Michael (role-playing advice, [16:45-17:17])

5. The Legacy of Abandonment Trauma

• [18:41-19:00]
  • The hosts reflect on how early paternal abandonment shapes adult emotional struggles, including persistent fears of being left by others—a dynamic the listener seems to reenact in his marriage.
  • Both share their personal experiences with abandonment and link it to feeling “not enough” or fundamentally unworthy of love.

6. Normalizing the Human Condition: “Everything’s great, but…”

• [19:35-20:15]

  • The idea that it’s human to feel unhappy even when “life is good”—these feelings do not invalidate gratitude or success, nor do they make someone ungrateful.

  • Notable Quote:

    “You could have everything you ever dreamed of. You're not—You're still gonna feel bad sometimes. That’s human.”
    — Michael ([20:03])

7. Why Can't Men Communicate Emotionally?

This becomes a core segment of the show, dissecting cultural and psychological obstacles.

• Old Norms, Not Lack of Interest:

  • Michael rejects the idea that men are “disinterested” in each other's struggles; rather, they lack practice and skills for vulnerability.

  • [32:12-34:03]

    • Men aren’t taught emotional share—in youth, their feelings weren’t solicited or validated.
    • The shame of desiring connection or fearing ridicule outweighs the wish to be open.
    • Trying vulnerability in a peer group that’s unskilled or judgmental is terrifying.

  • Notable Exchanges:

    “Trying something you have no idea how to do, around people that you think are gonna judge you and make fun of you—that’s… name something harder.”
    — Michael ([33:54])

    “I think the majority of men have that desire [for vulnerability]. I think the majority of men are ashamed of that desire. And I think that shame is more powerful than the desire for vulnerability.”
    — Michael ([33:37])

• Conditioning Differences in Boys and Girls:

  • Louie prompts a discussion about how women are socialized to tend to community/emotion, while men are valued for strength and stoicism ([35:28-36:27]).
  • Both note that shame is the common denominator, though what triggers it and how it manifests are gendered.

8. Emotional Fixers Versus Avoiders in Masculinity

• [45:04-49:20]
  • Many men default to “fixing” rather than holding space—within friendships, marriages, even in mundane tasks.
  • Louie and Michael see themselves in this “fixer” role and debate distinctions in how they manage discomfort, help, and politeness.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Allure and Fear of Therapy:

  “Therapy is having someone whose only motivation is to guide you and work through things with you… They're not your wife, they're not your coworker. There’s no judgment.”
  — Michael ([14:03], paraphrased)

• On Childhood Abandonment:

  “I'm sorry your dad did that to you, man. You didn't deserve that. It wasn't your fault. There was nothing you could have done to change it.”
  — Michael ([27:58])

• On the Futility of “Having It All”:

  “You did everything that they told you to do to be happy and you figured out that it doesn’t work.”
  — Michael ([15:12])

• On Men’s Emotional Socialization:

  “We’re not taught how to do that… if they don’t really sit down, listen, and converse with you about how you are feeling, you just don’t have that skill.”
  — Michael ([32:15])

• On Being a “Fixer”:

  “Because you can’t let things be… you have to fix things even if no one’s asking you for help.”
  — Michael to Louie ([46:13])

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Listener Email Read/Discussion: [08:32–13:33]
• Importance of Therapy & Third-Party Support: [13:38–17:17]
• Abandonment Trauma & Its Impact: [18:41–19:00]
• “Everything is great, but I feel bad” – Normalizing Hidden Struggles: [19:35–20:15]
• Why Men Struggle with Vulnerability (Main Core): [32:12–34:03]
• Emotional “Fixers” and Avoiders: [45:04–49:20]

---

Conclusion

The episode delivers a mix of humor, lived experience, and practical wisdom about what keeps men from being emotionally vulnerable, even when they crave connection and understanding. The hosts—through banter, open admissions, and genuine empathy—remind listeners (especially men) that feeling emotionally “off” is universal, that therapy helps, and that the only way to break cycles of shame and silence is to risk being seen—even if the first step is just writing in to a podcast.

Key Takeaway:
Men struggle with vulnerability not due to lack of interest, but due to a toxic mix of socialization, internalized shame, and no one ever having shown them how. Building vulnerability is not about flipping a switch, but “running the wires in the wall,” being intentional, seeking help, and practicing honesty—first with oneself, then with trusted others.

---

Recommended Listening from Hosts:

• Episode 29 “Cool Enough” ([19:13-19:24]) — Focuses on feeling “not enough” and abandonment, suggested as a companion listen for those with similar struggles.

---

This summary captures the heart, humor, and humanity of Michael and Louie’s conversation, making it approachable and resonant for anyone seeking to understand male vulnerability or feeling stuck themselves.

Transcript

[A]

Secondhand Therapy is presented by Pony Bear Studios. For ad free episodes, head on over to patreon.com secondhand therapypod hello, my little bear cubs.

[B]

We have a new sponsor. And that new sponsor is BetterHelp. Yes, BetterHelp is an online resource for therapy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know who would have guessed it. Who would have guessed it? I don't know if you know about the show, but we're actually very pro therapy around here. Very pro therapy.

[A]

That is the rumor that's going around.

[B]

It's helped me a lot.

[A]

Tell me more.

[B]

It really has. You don't notice a change in me, Is that what you're saying?

[A]

I do.

[B]

Okay, then. Has it helped you?

[A]

Absolutely. I'm in Better Help right now and my therapist is awesome.

[B]

Your therapist sounds pretty great. I'm not gonna lie.

[A]

He did. I'm so happy with him. And like whenever we have to reschedule or something changes, it's so easy. It's like literally like two, two clicks and it's done. I have to call mine Boo.

[B]

It's terrible. But here's what I will say. I was always very much an in person therapy kind of set up for myself. Yeah, I'm on telehealth now. Way better.

[A]

Oh, yeah, dude.

[B]

Doing therapy, like from your couch or like where you're in your space where you're comfortable? Dude, I'm. I'm doing way better.

[A]

That's one of the best parts of Better Help is that I get to do it from my cozy little corner chair.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Dim the lights. I light a candle. It is therapy time. Yeah.

[B]

I don't ever want to go back to a therapy office again. So that's where we're at now. Since they are a new sponsor of ours, they were nice enough to give us a little discount code for you to use. So a little treat. Yeah. If. If you're hearing this, maybe you're in between insurance and you would like to start some therapy. Or maybe you've never been to therapy and you really want to try it out. Better Help's a really good start. They make it easy to find and pair up with somebody and it's very affordable. So if you want to give it a shot, you can use the discount code they gave us. You can go to betterhelp.com secondhand therapy or just betterhelp.com and it'll ask you where you heard about it. Choose Secondhand Therapy. They'll give you 10% off your first month. Try it out. Start your healing journey. Change my life. To change your life.

[A]

I'm changed.

[B]

He's changing. Changing. Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back to another episode of secondhand Therapy. We need to remind you that we are not therapists.

[A]

You got all cool listening there for a second like it was a jazz station.

[B]

We are not experts. This is not a substitute for therapy. And this is not professional advice in any way. We are going to be going over an email today, so we are going to be giving some advice. It is not pretty professional advice. No, it's moronic, stupid advice.

[A]

Two dummies weighing in.

[B]

But we're going to go over this email o the email.

[A]

Email. Tell us about it.

[B]

Now you're going to. You're also going to hear some ads.

[A]

Oh, I hate ads.

[B]

I know.

[A]

How do I avoid them?

[B]

Well, you can go to patreon.com secondhand therapy pod. Oh, sock it to me, baby. All kinds of exclusive content. Ad free episodes, another podcast, his podcast. Live streams. Live streams, all kinds of things. Now go over to Patreon. It's a good way to support the pod. And if you sign up, we're giving away goodies.

[A]

We got. We got all kinds of goodies.

[B]

So you sign up for the one, the first tier, we're gonna send you a sticker. It's the greatest sticker of all time. If you try to tell me otherwise, you're wrong. If you sign up a second tier, you get that sticker. You also get a print that we are going to sign. And then I might even write a little note on the back.

[A]

Two dummies signing your print A.

[B]

And then if you sign up for the tier with the live streams, we're going to also send you a T shirt. All of these things will not be sold anywhere. They are only for Patreon. Check it out.

[A]

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[A]

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[B]

The mood crews are out.

[A]

Mood Cruise.

[B]

Go to secondhandtherapypod.com it's another good way to support the podcast, believe it or not. Do you like how I can slide in and out of it? That's what she said.

[A]

It's pretty good.

[B]

You can also contact us. All that info is the episode description below. I'll say it right now. If you want to text us. 818-850-2448. If you'd like to send us physical mail, send us a letter, send us some pictures of your cows and Donkeys.

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Cows and donkeys appreciated.

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Send us your cows and donkeys, pictures of your cows and donkeys. The P.O. box is below, but just in case. P.O. box 230595. Las Vegas, Nevada, 89105.

[A]

Sunny Las Vegas.

[B]

It is sunny. That's it.

[A]

All right. Enjoy the show.

[B]

We're gonna. You're getting now what's gonna happen. You're gonna hear some music, and then you're gonna hear us give some bad advice.

[A]

Thanks for being here, two dummies.

[B]

Hello, my little bear cubs, and welcome back.

[A]

Secondhand therapy.

[B]

And we know that. Okay, now. Not gonna say his name right?

[A]

No, of course not.

[B]

All right. His name is Vincent Thomas of Big Prairie, Ohio.

[A]

Is that real?

[B]

No. Made all that up.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

Is Big Prairie, Ohio a real place?

[A]

No, but it. Hey.

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

Sounded like.

[B]

You know how. I know how? Someone just signed up for Patreon. I just mailed him a sticker.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Big Prairie, Ohio.

[A]

Big Prairie.

[B]

Big Prairie. Big Prairie.

[A]

That was my nickname in high school. That's such a Big Prairie joke. That's. Yeah, I know.

[B]

I had a question for you.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Before we get into. What. What was his name? Vincent.

[A]

Vincent Thomas something.

[B]

Vincent Thomas from Big Prairie, Ohio.

[A]

Vinnie.

[B]

Vinnie T. Vinny D. Go to therapy. Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You might want to cut this out. I don't know.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

So last week.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

We talked about, as you put it, some sexual trauma.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

As we talked for another hour after the cameras were off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You clarified that it. Sexual trauma may not have been the proper description.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know what it is.

[B]

Yeah. It sounded like the trauma was more abandonment trauma.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I didn't know if you. It was important you to clear that up or if you were fine with what was.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know how. I don't know what category it falls under because the details are so cloudy of how it happened and who initiated and those things that I don't. I don't know if it's still under that umbrella or not for you.

[B]

Is it? Because when we had talked about it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. I had asked you, like. Because it. What it. How it come across for me when we were talking off air, is that everything consensual? No. Forceful. No. Coercion, Nothing like that.

[A]

Right. I just don't. In this far as it goes of, like, coercion goes like. I don't know. Those details are blurry. Okay. And so. I don't know.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't know how.

[B]

So there's nothing to correct.

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

Okie doke. Just wanted to give you a platform in case.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I'm. I'm still really unclear about it because it's.

[B]

Yeah. You hear that, Aunt Mary? Give him a call. Trying to save you.

[A]

Turns out I need Jesus. No, he's not the guy.

[B]

No, he saw it all. Okay, we have an email. All right, I'm gonna try to keep this as short as possible. I'll be reading for a while. I'm just kidding. I don't even. Yeah, no, it's kind of long. All right. I. 34 year old male, young man as far as we're concerned.

[A]

Young, young boy.

[B]

Three years younger than me, and I'm the youngest man alive. Discovered your podcast via Instagram and I was hooked. I had to see. Listen up to this part. I had to see more, so I jumped on Patreon.

[A]

Well, look at that.

[B]

Well, this is. This guy's doing it right.

[A]

He. Hey. Already off to a great state.

[B]

Hold on. Hey, listen to this part. And your other podcast is amazing as well. It actually says that you go to Patreon.

[A]

Go to Patreon. Figure out what he's talking about.

[B]

Let's actually get into this.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I have struggled with mental health issues for a very long time. On and off for probably 20 years as a young child. I live with my dad. He had custody of me at the time. When I was eight years old, I went to, quote, stay the summer with my mom and two half brothers. My dad told me he promised he would call. That was 26 years ago, and I haven't heard from him since. Now that is what we in the biz call a bummer.

[A]

Oh, buddy.

[B]

Yeah. I found out later that mom had got custody of me by default because dad never showed up to court. Yeah. The woman that dad was married to was very cold and neglectful. Just as a side note, I tell that background because I think it's important to what I struggle with today. By the way, I should mention, I'm not in therapy. I found your first mistake. I'm not entirely sure if I need it. You do.

[A]

Hey.

[B]

But I guess I'm just talking this out. Talk it out in therapy, sir. Or ma'. Am. In Big Prairie, Ohio.

[A]

Oh, made it up. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, yeah. 34 year old male.

[A]

Spoiler alert.

[B]

Sorry about that. Sorry about that. Yeah. Okay. Some things I have struggled with so far without a formal diagnosis. Did you write this?

[A]

This is me.

[B]

Self loathing, a depression, a social anxiety, thinking everyone hates me when I walk into A room double. A codependency.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I think I understand what that means for Michael. He doesn't even understand now. By all accounts, I have an amazing life. A wife that I'm still crazy about. Good for you, dude. Dude, relationships are hard.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being married and still being, like, crazy about your wife. Good for you. Yeah, not a lot of people have that, I think.

[A]

Or the other way around.

[B]

What?

[A]

A wife crazy about her husband still.

[B]

Oh, yeah, I thought that. Sorry.

[A]

You know what? You're trying to keep it general as you show around here.

[B]

As you should. Dude, I thought I was implying spouse. Yeah, spouse, but I wasn't, so. Good call. Four amazing kids. I found your second four mistakes. I'm just kidding. Good for you.

[A]

Yay.

[B]

Four amazing kids. Great job, great place to live. Pretty well off financially. What the is wrong with me? Why can't I accept all this and be happy? I know where you should be talking about this. I fully understand that life isn't supposed to be great all the time. That's normal. Is that what I'm experiencing? No. The occasional woe is me or is there something else going on? Here's the kicker.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You ready?

[A]

Let's have it.

[B]

I haven't told my wife or anyone about this. I have kept it locked inside. Just continue to put a mask on and move forward. To not be a bother, I guess. Suck it up and keep going.

[A]

A.

[B]

This is getting so much harder to achieve. A lot of people have it. So much worse than me is what I tell myself. I don't want to be a burden to anyone with this. The thought of telling someone, yeah, I have a good life, but sometimes I get sad. Makes me want to crawl out of my skin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't want to say, like, when Lou was hesitant about the black therapist. Now, hey, now, this is a point. I'd like some context.

[A]

Oh, no, no context. Say it louder and then no context.

[B]

Like when Louie was hesitant about the black therapist. Lol. Hey, man, it wasn't about it doesn't matter. I can feel these things growing like a cancer. And then they will subside. It ebbs and flows. Not at all sure what to do. I would love you guys insight. Feel free to talk about it on an episode. Thanks, Vincent Thomas Thompson.

[A]

Tom Thomas Thompson.

[B]

S. Big Prairie, Ohio.

[A]

Big Prairie.

[B]

All right. Go to therapy, sir.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Unfortunately, I know from experience that a lot of men are in that position.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That are really struggling. Feel like they don't have anyone to talk to. And they keep it locked inside and it grows Like a cancer.

[A]

Yeah. That's why you have a heart attack at 45.

[B]

That's why you have a heart attack at 45. That's why YOU'RE. You go on a special diet and you only eat bullets now. Yeah, that's what, that's what therapy is, man, is having someone whose only motivation is to guide you and work through things with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're not invested in your life. They're, they're not your wife, they're not co worker.

[A]

There's no judgment. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's going to get below that surface feeling because what I'm getting from this email too is like what I feel like a lot of men deal with too is, you know, like I did everything right. Know what I mean? Like, I have a wife, I have kids, I have a. I did it. It's like what the. And well, it's below that, man. It's, it's way, way, way below that.

[B]

And not to get like, you know, I don't give a, I'll get. Who gives a dude? That's also the system. Like you did everything that they told you to do to be happy and you figured out that it doesn't work.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That is the system is to get you to buy, make money so you can buy stuff and then you buy more stuff and then you make more money. And yeah, that's, that's not what's going to make you happy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And hey, man, it sounds like your wife's great. Talk to her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you don't have to tell her everything. Just, I mean, I don't know, man. See, yeah, this isn't good advice. Hey, maybe talk to your wife. Maybe don't, I don't know.

[A]

I, I say talk to her, but don't. The mistake that I've made in the past is making your partner everything. Making your partner, your therapist and your, you know, your boss. And you're this and that like your best friend. You're this. And no, she's, that's your partner and you can lean on her, but not. Or them, but not too much. You need some kind of support group outside of them. And that's again where therapy comes in handy. And that's again where like your friends come in handy and things like that.

[B]

Codependents Anonymous can come in handy.

[A]

Yeah. Any of those group meetup meetings can be really helpful. It doesn't have to be codependency. It could be any of those groups.

[B]

I do have a, I actually do have a suggestion. Yeah, that I think could be good. Okay, listen up. Vincent, Vinny D. All right, what. Tell me what you think about this.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

What if he does talk to his wife? But the conversation is, hey, I've really been struggling, and I'm. I'm thinking of maybe getting into therapy. I think I have some stuff I need to work through. It's nothing to do with you. I'm not questioning our relationship. I love you. I love the kids.

[A]

Something's.

[B]

I'm feeling off, and I just. I need to talk to somebody about it. And that's the convo with the wife.

[A]

It's pretty good, right?

[B]

It's vulnerable. It's not over Sherry. It's not putting too much on her.

[A]

And it's letting in. And you're not gonna hide these future actions of, like, going to therapy. You know what I mean? Like, what I'm afraid too, is, like, what if he starts going to therapy and he doesn't tell his wife or whatever? Then he's just like, oh, to stay after work tonight. And you're like, what are we doing, guy? Yeah.

[B]

Do not bang your therapist.

[A]

No.

[B]

Do they do that?

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

It's illegal, right? Yeah, illegal.

[A]

I don't think it's illegal.

[B]

Frowned upon.

[A]

Yeah. It's just unethical.

[B]

Like, I don't do that.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[B]

Should probably be illegal, huh? I think it's not a crime. Maybe they lose their license.

[A]

Is it abuse, though? Because you're knowing you're leaning somebody on mentally into like a. A saf.

[B]

Yeah, but then you abuse that ass. Do you know what I'm saying, man? That's a trade, boy.

[A]

No, no, no, no.

[B]

I don't know. I think you were onto something there.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's some form of abuse, right?

[B]

Mm. No, no, no, no. Go to therapy. If anything. Stupid.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know. I think.

[B]

Oh, and. Oh, elephant in the room. Oh, you got trauma from your dad?

[A]

Oh, yeah. The whole. The whole first half of the thing is all abandoned, man.

[B]

Hey, can I tell you about the time my dad abandoned me? And then I probably convinced myself there's.

[A]

Something wrong with me.

[B]

He doesn't love me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My guy, you gotta go therapy.

[A]

What's the episode that we talked about that on all of them. 50 something. It's in the 50s or 60s.

[B]

I'm pretty sure it's just click one. You'll find it.

[A]

Yeah, you'll find it.

[B]

It'll come up. Cool enough?

[A]

Cool enough.

[B]

29, I believe.

[A]

Okay. There you Go.

[B]

Dude, if I'm right, that's crazy, right?

[A]

That's pretty crazy. That's tism to the max. Yeah.

[B]

I think cool enough's 29.

[A]

Cool enough is definitely the episode you should listen to, Vincent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Start there.

[B]

You're on Patreon. You get it ad free. Go check it out.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, man, that's tough.

[B]

Yeah, it's. And I mean. Yeah. No matter how great your wife is, it's still just the idea of. Yeah. Saying out loud, everything's great, but I feel like sometimes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

1. That's the definition of being a human.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. You could have everything you ever dreamed of. You're not. You're still gonna feel bad sometimes. It's. That's human in my.

[A]

My little book. Are you mad at me?

[B]

The.

[A]

Oh, the Bible.

[B]

Different book.

[A]

Are you mad at me? I was listening to it this morning.

[B]

Are you taking maca yet?

[A]

I. I am, and it's pretty cool. Yeah, I'm only on day three. Yeah.

[B]

Which one are you taking? You on the black. Yeah, I do the black too. I do the black and I do the tri blend.

[A]

Oh, you do two.

[B]

I do two.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Technically three, because the blend is a blend of three. Okay, well, so if you don't know about maca, it is a root native to Peru. It grows in three colors. Black, red, and yellow or yellow or yellow. Yellow or yellow. I take the black and I take the tri blend. My girl takes the red, and you take the black.

[A]

I do.

[B]

Typically, yeah. Men take the black, women take the red, and then you intersperse the tribal end. But it has a lot of benefits. I've been taking it daily for a little over a year. I have noticed a lot mood, skin, hair, energy, if you heard testosterone, you know, libido.

[A]

I've had a lot of improvements. Yeah, all true.

[B]

And we get. Well, I get our. I get my maca. And I have been from a company called the Maca Team. They are the biggest supplier of genuine maca from Peru. The biggest supplier in America. And they are nice enough to partner with. Partner with us and give a discount code. If you want to try out maca, you can go to the maca team.com secondhand therapy. And you can use code bear cub for 10 off.

[A]

Ooh, fancy.

[B]

So, yeah, if you want to try some maca, try it out, dudes. Try the black, ladies, try the red. Or try the. Try, but at least go to the website, read about it, see if you might want to do it. It's not pharmaceutical. It's all Natural. I've been taking it for over a year. I like it. You're three days in, you're less annoying. So we did it.

[A]

We did it.

[B]

The moca team.com secondhand therapy. Check it out.

[A]

Hey, if you're tired of hearing these ads, which I'm sure you are, you should head on over to Patreon. There are ad free episodes and early access to episodes. You could be hearing this a week early along with acc, along with access to a an entirely different podcast. Some would say a better one called the other shit Show.

[B]

It is fun.

[A]

It's non therapy related.

[B]

It is fun.

[A]

Super fun. Plus you have have. Plus you have early access to my new podcast series, Happy Not Funny. And it's ad free episodes on that as well. Plus fun merch discounts. Also fun live show things where we interact with the audience.

[B]

Live streams is what he's trying to say. We are not going on tour.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. What did I say?

[B]

You said live shows.

[A]

Well, same, same. You know, it's like a live show. Nope, it's like a zoom.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Anyways, you'll have access to us in a more intimate manner.

[B]

Intimate.

[A]

How about that?

[B]

Intimate. There's no end.

[A]

Yeah, like the candidate, like the candies.

[B]

Intimate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Also, if you sign up, you get a little treat.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So check out the different tiers. One of the tiers is just if you're just here for secondhand therapy, you want no ads, we'll send you a dope little sticker. And I'm gonna be honest with you, a lot of time went into designing this sticker. Yeah, too much. You can argue. Too much dope sticker though. So if you sign up for that tier, we'll send you a sticker. The next tier, if you want the other podcast, if you want the bonus stuff from secondhand therapy, all the little extras, you get the sticker. And we're going to send you a signed print designed by yours truly. That took way too much time. Still way too much time. We'll sign it, we'll send it out to you. And then we have the top tier with the live streams. If you want to hang out with us a couple times a month, you get the sticker, the print, and we'll send you a T shirt that we are not selling or getting anywhere else. So check out Patreon. If you sign up, you get some treats and it's a good way to support the podcast.

[A]

We'll see you over there.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

And they were talking about this idea of it's it's almost like built in imposter syndrome where you even if things are great, you are worried that something like it can't be true.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like it's not. This isn't reality. It's like something bad is going to happen. If something good is happening, then something bad is right around the corner. Or like thinking about worst case scenario or. And another thing they were talking about in that imposter syndrome kind of area was like praise. When you are working on something or a project or whatever and somebody's like, oh, man, you know, you should meet my friend Tom, he's a great painter. And you meet Tom and Tom's like, ah, yeah, I don't know, I just do it. Yeah. I do it on the side or whatever. Even he could be an incredible painter. But it's the self belief of like, if I can do it, then it can't be that hard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And no matter how impressive your work is, you still have that thought of being like, if I'm doing it.

[B]

I feel that way about painting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You do great stuff.

[B]

Whatever, dude.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

I truly every time I paint and someone's like, dude, that's so dope. I'm like, yeah, I. Yeah, yeah. So painting just easy. I immediately go to, oh, art isn't real then.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like you just have to find someone with the taste or someone that will lie to you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that's all that matters.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. With fawning, it's more about staying humble.

[B]

Yeah. I don't fawn.

[A]

Yeah. That's what I mean. So like that's.

[B]

That's not a fawner.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You're not a fawner. So I.

[B]

Not for me, to be honest, I've.

[A]

Pondered fawning and I'm not excited. Not for me, I'm not interested. But it for me, the. When I say like it's a humble thing, it's not like humble in the way of like, you know, I'm staying humble, you know, I know it's good, but it's more so I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable.

[B]

You're making yourself small.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're like, oh, man. Yeah, that looks really great. Oh, thanks. You know. No, because I don't want you to feel like bad about making me feel good. Mm. So wild.

[B]

Yeah. Dude. It's crazy question for you, Vincent, in Big Prairie, Ohio, are you afraid that if you tell your wife how you're feeling that she will leave? Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that goes back to daddy.

[A]

Back to back. The old two step dad.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, that's tough, man.

[A]

Yeah, there's definitely, definitely some abandonment was there for sure.

[B]

I don't know you or your wife or your four kids, but I'm gonna say something.

[A]

Oh, God.

[B]

Okay. I'm sorry your dad did that to you, man. You didn't deserve that. It wasn't your fault. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Yeah. That had nothing to do with you.

[B]

Yeah. There was nothing you could have done to change it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That sucks, dude. That really sucks. But I'm not one. I'm not a guy to put a positive spin on things, but if you wanted a silver lining, hey, man, you just figured out you have cancer. Take care of it, dude. Like, yeah, yeah, as. As you said, you know, cancer spreads, so take care of it, man.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And not, I mean, if you need a reason to start looking at your cancer, you. I mean, use your wife and kids, whatever you need to, but you gotta, you gotta do it for yourself, dude.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I know how you feel. He knows how you feel. Yeah, I think a lot. I think most men know how you feel. And yeah, I, you probably wrote the email because you don't want to feel like that anymore.

[A]

So I wonder, I wonder what it is with, with communication and men. Like, why are we so. I, I don't even, I don't even think it's like the masculine answer, right? Of like, oh, we're just taught to be tough and this. And I think it's genuine disinterest because when you, when you.

[B]

I don't understand what you're like, communication.

[A]

Within, like friend groups of men. Right. You know, the old, you know, there's the old joke about like, you know, you. A guy comes home from hanging out with, you know, the boys and the wife's like, oh, so how's Tom doing? He's like, fine. It's like, well, isn't he going through a divorce? Oh, yeah. Well, what happened? I don't know. It's just like. Yeah, it's just disinterest.

[B]

I don't agree with that at all.

[A]

I. Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah, listen to him. Yeah, he's very interested.

[A]

Yeah. But are his friends. Does he have peers? Does he have anybody to go to that is communicating? Because it doesn't sound. He does. He's writing us an email. Strangers into the. He's just sending into outer space to be like, glad. I'm glad. That's off my chest. You and I have each other. You and I have other close friends that we talk to and Stuff like that. Like, we have selected men in our lives that are open to communication.

[B]

Yeah. I haven't always been like that, though.

[A]

Yeah. I just. I wonder what that is. I refuse to believe that it's just, like, masculinity of. Or like that societal norm of just being, like, I'm a man. I don't talk about it or whatever. I think it's. I think it is more just disinterest. Men are not interested in other men's problems, issues, emotions.

[B]

Yeah. I don't agree with that.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As a, As a majority, you don't. You don't agree with that? No. You think men are having deep conversations with each other? Like, on a majority?

[B]

I am. All I'm trying to do is get you to be like, what do you think it is?

[A]

That's what I'm asking. That's what I'm trying to pull out of you.

[B]

Just ask that you think men are having deep conversations. Just ask me what I think.

[A]

That's what I. That's what I think I'm doing.

[B]

So what do you think it is? I think it's not knowing how. I don't. I think as men, we're not, we're not taught how to do that. And I think it's because. And I, I, I truly do believe this. I just, I think especially when you and I at our. People in our age group were growing up, like, people didn't care. It wasn't a concern how we were doing or how we were feeling.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And when nobody asks you that. And even if they do, if they don't really sit down and listen and converse with you about how you are feeling, you just don't have that skill. I mean, there, There's. There's a reason that guys are together and. How's Jim? Fine. And then, you know, Carl, he. Dude, they threw an interception. He punched a hole in the wall.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Carl needs to talk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But he doesn't know how, so. Yeah, I, I just think it's not knowing how. I think a lot. I think the majority of men have that desire. I think the majority of men are ashamed of that desire. And I think that shame is more powerful than the desire for vulnerability and not knowing how to be vulnerable. Bro, trying something you have no idea how to do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Around people that you think are gonna judge you and make fun of you. That's one of the hard. That's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Name something harder.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. Yeah, I don't, I don't think it's disinterest. I Think men are very interested. I think a lot of them probably don't even know they're interested. It's like that video you showed me, the. The guy, the spool of wire.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

All he wanted to do was talk about that wire and why he was crying about it, but even his partner couldn't give a about what he was actually saying.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So he goes, hey, you know what? That's enough. It's just easier. Yeah, it's easier than being humiliated. That's what I think. Thoughts?

[A]

I'm just wondering what is so different. I agree. I'm wondering what is so different in the behaviors that are taught with young women versus young men and how.

[B]

It.

[A]

Is such a valuable thing in their community and so it always is in ours.

[B]

I think it's still scary in women. Women are incredibly cruel to each other. I mean, this just came to me. Yeah, I think. Are you tired of staring at your phone? Are you addicted to it?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Are you?

[A]

Yeah. Well, yeah, like everybody else. Sure.

[B]

Okay. All right, well, I got a new. Let me tell these people about my new phone.

[A]

Okay? Okay.

[B]

It's called the light phone.

[A]

Oh, I've heard about that.

[B]

The light. Yeah, you see me use it. The light phone. Also known, some people call it a dumb phone. Anyway, it's a smartphone. It has Internet, but the Internet will only get you navigation. There is no email, there is no social media, nothing like that. It does calls, it does texts, it does navigation. It has a calendar and a flashlight.

[A]

It's like having a BlackBerry again.

[B]

Kinda.

[A]

Oh, yeah, I love that.

[B]

It has a pretty cool camera too. I'm not gonna lie. Yeah, it's got a dope camera on it. It's got a camera. Yeah. Anyway, they were nice enough. They sent us a little discount code if anybody wants to get on the light phone train with us. So there's a link in the episode description for the light phone. And then if you want to pre order the light phone three use code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Try out a light phone. It's pretty great.

[A]

Stop your doom scrolling.

[B]

Stop your doom scrolling. Be more present in life. Link down below. Promo code. Secondhand therapy, all lowercase. Check out a light phone. Join us in the present world if you compare. Compare the way women handle emotions and the way men handle appearance. Like a man is never going to be like, bro, did you see Carl's eyebrow? Nobody gives a. Yeah, and the same way with women like you co crying your friends like, oh my God, what happened? No one's gonna judge You.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But they might humiliate you for your haircut or, like, whatever. I think it's just different conditioning.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Men are taught to be strong providers, and women are taught to be pretty objects. So, yeah. It makes sense that men can't talk to each other and women have a panic attack if something doesn't fit the way they want it to.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's all. We're all. It's all shame. We're all afraid to be humiliated.

[A]

Yeah. That shame, dude.

[B]

And I understand. I just said that with so much confidence. I could have been.

[A]

Dude.

[B]

I don't know if that's right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But it makes sense to me.

[A]

Yeah. I was also thinking about our interaction and how this has come up in the last couple episodes and how you're like, ask me.

[B]

Because we have people being like, I would love to see Lou have more to say. I'm like, I'd love to be asked a question.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I love it. I sit here and ask questions for an hour once a week.

[A]

Yeah. And here's the divide for me. Fundamentally, I'm a yapper. I don't need to be asked. What do you think about that? If we're talking about this in a conversation, I'm already giving you. I'm giving you the opinion. I'm g. I'm gonna give it to you. And so I'm like. In my head, I'm like, we. This is what we're doing. We're talking about it. So just give me your thoughts. It's such a weird. Because I'm a yapper and overshare. It's such a weird thing for me to have you being like, I'm waiting to be asked. I'm like, oh, just yap with me.

[B]

No.

[A]

That's so bizarre to me.

[B]

And you want me to tell you why?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sometimes when you're yapping, I'm like, God, I wish he'd shut the up.

[A]

Yeah, probably. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Be like, I have a question. And he. Like, a lot of times I think you think you're answering a question that I'm going to ask and you're not. And so you go on this whole diatribe, and I'm like, okay, but what if. Da, da, da, da. And like, that's what I want to ask.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think. You ready? I think I come with curiosity. And I think, you're not gonna like this. I think you come from insecurity. Oh. And I. Because we've talked about it on here before, that I don't know if we ever settled that you agree with this. Okay. But I think you have insecurity about your intelligence, and I think it comes from that. I think you like to talk because you want me. Look how much I know. Like, I. And I'm like. I'm like, what do you know? I want to know. And you're like, I want to tell you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think I'm more curious and you're more showy.

[A]

Yeah. I just. I love the app and I love to gossip and yap and all that fun stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. Yeah. So, yeah, that was a. That was a weird moment for me because I was like. When I said, like, that's what I'm doing, like, that's genuinely what I meant. Like, I was like, we are.

[B]

We're.

[A]

I'm asking you what you think.

[B]

No.

[A]

And you're like, no, directly ask me.

[B]

Oh, no, no, no, no. Can I tell you why I disagree with that?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I can't wait for you to edit this and watch this back.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Because you're. You're saying your opinion.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I go, no, I don't agree with that. And you keep going. And you go, you don't think. And I go, no, I don't agree with that. And then you go, you think men are out here having deep conversations with each other. Buddy, that's defensive as shit.

[A]

That. It wasn't defensive. It was. It was more frustration. It was like those. Those couple times where I was. When I. When I either repeated or whatever just happened there, that was me. Like, if we're driving, that's me letting you merge, and you're not merging. And so I'm like, get in the conversation. Tell me your opinion. And you're not sharing it. And so the defense. It's not defense. It's frustration of being like, well, if I'm wrong, then tell me what you think. And so I'm like, join the con. Like, yeah, get in the. I'm letting you merge. And so that's what it is. Yeah.

[B]

Oh. It came to me like, oh, oh, okay, dude, so prove me wrong. Oh, no, I'm like, I don't want to prove you wrong. I just disagree with you.

[A]

No, that was for. I was just like, well, say it then.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Instead of me. Yeah. But to. Yeah. In my head, I'm like, I shouldn't. Yeah. I'm like, I shouldn't have to directly ask you. Just join in. It's just us.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just jump in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So why wouldn't. Why wouldn't you just jump in?

[B]

Because I don't assume that anybody wants to hear what I have to say, even when they're.

[A]

No. Conversating with you.

[B]

No. There's many times I'm in a conversation, I don't. I don't ask a question because I don't. I don't. I'm not interested what you have to say about it.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah. I don't assume that anybody cares what I have to say, and I think that's fine. Yeah. That doesn't offend me, doesn't upset me, doesn't bother me at all.

[A]

But I'm talking directly to you about a topic.

[B]

You're talking at me about a topic? Yeah.

[A]

You didn't think we were having a conversation. You just thought I was just yapping at you.

[B]

Yeah, I. I. For me, a conversation involves asking another person's thoughts, reflecting on what they say. And like, like I said, you talk. And then you didn't even ask me if I agreed. I just said, no, I don't agree with that.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

So you haven't noticed that when you go, and then I go, what are your thoughts? Think what Thoughts? What do you think about that sometimes?

[A]

Yeah. If there's a pause, but usually I'm yapping, but if there's a pause, you're like, thoughts.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

For me, the rhythm is like, share, share, share, share, share, share.

[B]

Nah, I don't care about rhythm.

[A]

Yeah. Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What? I wonder why more men aren't communicating.

[B]

There's nobody getting. Nobody asked them a question. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, I think, too. I think. I think men fall victim to just either wanting to be or feeling like they need to be. Fixers.

[B]

Yeah. I'm gonna. I'm not gonna call them victims for that.

[A]

Not victim.

[B]

But I do think that, yeah. Men do default to. Yeah. To being fixers.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So you can't have two fixers, you know, I mean, talking about, you know, like, how would that conversate, you know, like.

[B]

Yeah. Between the two of us, who do you think? The fix. They know. Go ahead, raise your hand. How are you the woman and the man? I don't get it. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I need.

[A]

I need to get in there.

[B]

What do you want to know? Hey, ask away, huh?

[A]

Why do you. Why do you think I'm the fixer?

[B]

Because you can't let things be.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

You have to fix things even if no one's asking you for help. Like.

[A]

Well, I'd love to help out.

[B]

Oh, exactly. Buddy, I'm emptying the dishwasher. Go. Hey, let me grab A glass. Oh, this isn't a two person job. Go away.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You can't. You can't.

[A]

Yeah. Do you think that you have fixer.

[B]

Tendencies in certain situations? I used to. Used to be big fixer. It's been a focus of me to not. And it's. It's. I notice it harder in my relationship. That's when, like, I tell you, I have, like, codependent urges. Sometimes it's hard for me to, like, watch my partner struggle and just be like, well, she asked for help. I know exactly what to do here. And I struggle with that with you sometimes, but sometimes, yeah, I'm like, buddy, I don't want to do it for you, but Jesus Christ. Yeah.

[A]

What stops you from stepping in?

[B]

I don't want to be a fixer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm happy to help most of the time. Most people, if they ask or need help. Yeah, I know. But I. I also see why, like, you do things like that, because you and I also have very different views on what being polite is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think you. I think you think that it's polite to help.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But really, I think you see somebody struggling and you feel so uncomfortable, and so, like, you are not of use, so that means you're useless. So you have to, like, do something to ease your own discomfort. That's what it is for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think some of it too, for me is like, I don't want to be thought of as not supportive. Okay. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Even. Even little, like the dishwasher thing. Like, no, I want to help out.

[B]

Yeah. You want me to think of you as an annoying who won't let me empty the dishwasher.

[A]

I would rather that than a lazy piece of. That's just gonna watch you.

[B]

Yeah. What about what I want? I'm the one emptying the dishwasher.

[A]

Well, that would cause me to ask you what you want.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is do you find that interesting that even this scenario of the dishwasher, like, your options are between your own two feelings, like the other person isn't even of consideration? There's like, I'd rather you think I'm in the way than useless rather than being like, how could I actually make this easier for them? Or how could I actually be helpful? Maybe the most helpful thing is staying.

[A]

Out of the way. Yeah. Because I don't. I. I don't. I don't trust your honesty.

[B]

Me or you?

[A]

Not you.

[B]

But, like, the.

[A]

The person's honesty. Hey, you want me to help you with that? No, no, I got it. I Got. Even if they are struggling, because that's also. That's the battle politeness too, in the. In the Midwest and all that, like. No, no, I got it. You could be lifting a car and you're like, hey, let me help you with that. No, no, no. So I don't trust it. So I'd. Instead of asking, I'll just jump in and if you tell me I'm good, then I'll off. But that. That is me asking. Me jumping in is me asking.

[B]

No, it isn't.

[A]

I know, but in my head, that is me asking is me just jumping in there and being like, I'm going to help out. And then you'd be like, ah, you're good. Cool. Then I'll back off. Yeah.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

Yeah, I. I don't. I.

[B]

I get it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just.

[A]

I never looked at it as a.

[B]

I don't want to do it anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, it doesn't have to be right or wrong or good or bad. Oh.

[A]

Everything has to be right around.

[B]

Of course it does. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. If not, then it's just chaos.

[B]

Just being.

[A]

I know. Which sounds so chaotic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

I mean, I get it, dude. I felt like that with my mom a lot growing up. That. Yeah. Just no matter what I did, I couldn't do the right thing, so. I know that feeling. It's not fun.

[A]

No. No, it's not. This is how deep it gets. I even had like a little mini panic when we were before the show. We. We recording the little audio tags ago before the episodes. And you gave. You gave me a. A sentence to say, buddy, I'm sweating.

[B]

Why?

[A]

I was sweating, dog. It's test.

[B]

Well, you failed.

[A]

Yeah, I know.

[B]

So who cares? You did three times and we got it. Who gives a shit?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And what happened?

[A]

Just trying to remember it. Just trying to like, remember it. Yeah. Sweating.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I couldn't tell you the. The sentence right now. I couldn't say it verbatim.

[B]

Give it a shot. The first word wasn't.

[A]

Are you sure?

[B]

Pretty sure.

[A]

Okay. I could have sworn it was. Yeah. You don't pay, so you don't panic when on the spot or.

[B]

No, not anymore. I think when I was younger, I did.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, geez. I mean, sometimes I do really get into the mindset of like, am I doing this right? Happens to me in therapy a lot. Especially parts work or anything like emdr. I'm like, I'm not. I'm so in my head right now and like, all I can think about is if I'm Doing it right. It ruins it.

[A]

Yeah, no, but no.

[B]

If you asked me like, hey, can we need to record this? Can you say this, this, and this? Like, I would literally be like, you know, let me write it down. That's a lot. I'm not gonna it up.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Just write it down and read it.

[A]

Do you think it's an importance thing with you? Like things. You're able to be a little bit more lax with things that are just like, yeah, if I mess up. This phrase was re recorded. I don't give a versus when you're in therapy and you're trying to like actually work on something or meaningful, then you're like, oh, I can't this up. Or like, I hope I don't it up.

[B]

I think I have a fairly reasonable gauge on the importance of things. Not everything feels ma. Massively important.

[A]

Yeah. What's that?

[B]

Like, it's fine. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard when people around you think everything's a life or death decision.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I. It's taken me a lot of time. I used to feel like that a lot. Especially running late. Like we've talked about that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Felt like a death sentence if I was late somewhere. And it still feels that way sometimes. Like, I took my girl to the airport earlier today and terminal one and da, da, da. And I made a mistake. Look at that. I misread the Terminal 1 and I took the ramp for arrivals instead of departures where Vegas, if you go arrives, you have to take the train.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I was like. Like I had a true. Like, oh, she's gonna miss her flight. I. The whole thing. And I was. And she's like. And she. She has some anxiety herself. She's like, just go, I'll figure it out. And I was like, it's gonna be quicker if we just loop around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it added 90 seconds to go loop back around, and it was fine. But I did have that, like, oh my God. I this up thing. It felt like that, but I didn't react like that. Because it's okay.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Took me a long time to be able to do that. But the feeling is still there. It's still my. It's still a reaction.

[A]

How. How are you battling that? How do you.

[B]

I mean, you just have to be aware.

[A]

Oh, my worst.

[B]

I know, I know. It's just like, I. Because I don't know, man. I wish I had a good answer. I don't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I've. I've been like you. Like, I've been. I missed that turn And I have an outburst.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I want to blame everybody in the car but me. Somebody was talking. Somebody distracted me some. Oh, your visor's down. How can I see? Whatever. Yeah, but it's not that big a deal, man. I don't know. Time and learning and just.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Really? I. I truly. I think is. There's no secret. It's like, I know you always ask, like, how do you flip that switch?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's no flipping a switch. It's running wire through the wall. It's putting up the drywall, it's installing the switch. Like, there's so much work before you flip the switch, and even then, the switch doesn't fucking flip. Sometimes it just takes time and a lot of practice and a lot of intent. You have to be very intentional about those types of things, and you have to be okay with the uncomfortable feeling. I had the uncomfortable feeling today at the airport, and I know, dude, it's gonna be quicker for Loop around. And it was. And we got to the thing, and I said, hey, sorry about the extra couple minutes. My fault. She goes, we're good. Like, kept it cool, was accountable, apologized, and she's on her way to Portland. So what do I need to freak out about? And we know that. Jesus, that's a bear. It's not.