John Sipher and Jerry O'Shea, former senior CIA officers and co-founders of Spycraft Entertainment, return to the show for a conversation with Matt and Chris about what Hollywood gets wrong about espionage—and what they're trying to do about it. They dig into the tropes that break the spell (the lone hero, the ditched tail, the torture-porn shortcuts), why real intelligence work is quieter, more bureaucratic, and more character-driven than the screen suggests, and how lazy spy fiction feeds the conspiracy theories they now debunk on their podcast Mission Implausible. Their conversation ranges across the economics of pitching subtlety to risk-averse studios, the moral gray zones that make for better drama than propaganda ever could, the "deep state" as misnomer, and the unsung assets who are the real heroes of most operations. Along the way: a bubble in Moscow for marital fights, a 16-year-old Yazidi girl who helped bring down ISIS, and why the Glomar Explorer remains the great white whale of the genre.

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Learn more about Spycraft Entertainment: https://spycraftentertainment.com/

Listen to John and Jerry’s podcast, Mission Implausible: https://podcasts.apple.com/fm/podcast/mission-implausible/id1728340033

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Secrets and Spies is produced by Films & Podcasts LTD: https://filmsandpodcasts.co.uk/
Music by Andrew R. Bird
Photo by Spycraft Entertainment

Secrets and Spies sits at the intersection of intelligence, covert action, real-world espionage, and broader geopolitics in a way that is digestible but serious. Hosted by filmmaker Chris Carr and writer Matt Fulton, each episode examines the very topics that real intelligence officers and analysts consider on a daily basis through the lens of global events and geopolitics, featuring expert insights from former spies, authors, and journalists.