Mack Brown Joins the Show! | What House vs. NCAA Settlement Really Means

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Mack Brown Joins the Show! | What House vs. NCAA Settlement Really Means"

Podcast Information:

• Title: See Ball Get Ball with David Pollack
• Host: David Pollack
• Guest: Coach Mack Brown
• Episode Release Date: June 10, 2025
• Description: College football analysis from CFB Hall-of-Famer, three-time First-Team All-American, and First-Round NFL Draft Pick David Pollack.

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Introduction

David Pollack opens the episode with his signature enthusiasm, welcoming listeners to "See Ball Get Ball." He introduces the special guest, renowned college football coach Mack Brown, highlighting Brown's illustrious career at Texas, including a national championship and numerous accolades. Pollack sets the stage for an engaging conversation, emphasizing the blend of storytelling and in-depth analysis that listeners can expect.

Recounting the Legendary Texas vs. USC Rose Bowl Game

[00:00 - 13:07]

Mack Brown delves into one of the most memorable games in college football history: the Texas vs. USC Rose Bowl showdown. He vividly describes the pregame atmosphere, the team's mindset, and the pivotal moments that led to Texas securing the national championship.

• Pregame Speech and Team Ethos: Brown shares how the team was united under the slogan "Take that aim," inspired by a famous golf teaching from Ben Crenshaw and Tom Kite. This motto emphasized a focused and determined approach to defeating USC.

  "We were taking dead aim on Southern Cal." [01:19]

• Key Moments: Brown recounts the intense rivalry, including the critical game against Oklahoma, which “we killed them,” solidifying Texas’s path to the championship. He highlights the emotional halftime adjustments that led to a decisive comeback, resulting in a 40-29 victory.

  “At halftime, we're down 29-24, and Reggie Bush that day killed Fresno. So that's the day Reggie won the Heisman and Vince Young lost their house.” [05:39]

• Post-Game Reflections: Reflecting on the aftermath, Brown emphasizes the camaraderie and mutual respect shared with USC players like Reggie Bush and Matt Leonard, underscoring the importance of sportsmanship.

  “You are the national champs, and that's very few people get to be the best team in the country, and you are.” [13:07]

Impact on Texas and High School Football Recruitment

[13:07 - 23:44]

The discussion shifts to the broader impact of Texas’s national championship on the state’s high school football culture and recruitment landscape.

• Community and Legacy: Brown highlights the immense pride Texas football holds within the state, noting how the championship revitalized interest and participation in high school football.

  “They were so excited about bringing a national championship back to the state because football is so important in that state.” [16:02]

• Recruitment Challenges: Brown candidly discusses the intense competition in recruiting top talent from Texas high schools. With an average of 375 athletes signing Division 1A scholarships annually, the selection process is rigorous, leading to inevitable disappointment among many talented players.

  “You have to do a great job of evaluation and then you have to develop. But you also then have to deal with 300 and something kids and families that were mad at you because you didn't take them.” [18:39]

Transition to North Carolina and Modern Challenges in College Football

[23:44 - 37:56]

Mack Brown elaborates on his transition from Texas to North Carolina, shedding light on the evolving landscape of college football, particularly with the introduction of Name, Image, and Likeness (NIL) and transfer portal dynamics.

• Return to UNC: Brown explains his decision to return to North Carolina, motivated by personal ties and a desire to revitalize a struggling program. He emphasizes the fulfilling nature of coaching and the profound impact it can have on players' lives.

  “We get to fix things, and the program was in a mess.” [23:44]

• Mental Health and Player Development: Addressing the critical issue of mental health, Brown shares a poignant story about a player seeking help, illustrating the vital role coaches play beyond the field.

  “If you're struggling, forget football. Come on, man, let's talk about it. Let's get you some help.” [23:44]

• NIL and Recruitment Dynamics: Brown critiques the current NIL framework, advocating for a rookie salary cap to ensure fairness and stability. He expresses concern over the rapid turnover of players and the potential long-term negative effects on their careers and personal development.

  “We should have a salary cap, period. And we should definitely have a rookie salary cap.” [31:13]

Proposed Solutions for College Football’s Future

[37:56 - 41:38]

The conversation turns toward actionable solutions to address the challenges posed by NIL and the transfer portal.

• Structured Transfer Window: Brown suggests implementing a single transfer window in January, similar to the NFL, to reduce the chaos caused by constant player movement and ensure team stability.

  “I would have one window, and I would have it in January.” [28:44]

• Salary Cap Implementation: Emphasizing the need for financial regulation, Brown advocates for a salary cap to prevent imbalances and ensure that recruits choose schools based on fit rather than financial incentives alone.

  “It's a 40-year decision, it's not four.” [37:56]

• Collaborative Reform: Brown calls for a unified effort involving coaches, administrators, legislators, and stakeholders to overhaul the current system, focusing on what’s best for players, families, and the integrity of the sport.

  “Let's get a group of smart people together because we made decisions without looking at the consequences.” [26:32]

Closing Remarks and Future Outlook

[41:38 - End]

David Pollack wraps up the episode by reflecting on the enduring passion for college football despite its challenges. He highlights ongoing developments, such as the Pac-12’s expansion and evolving NCAA policies. Pollack acknowledges the critical insights shared by Mack Brown and underscores the podcast’s commitment to exploring ways to enhance the sport.

• Conference Changes: Pollack mentions the Pac-12’s strategic moves to include new teams like Boise State, Colorado State, Fresno State, and Gonzaga, aiming to strengthen the conference's competitive edge and financial standing through improved TV deals.

• NCAA Settlement Discussion: He touches upon the complex aspects of the House vs. NCAA settlement, questioning how back payments will be managed and the implications for former athletes.

  “How do they decide who gets paid and how much? So many questions, I think, are going to be interesting.” [23:44]

• Future of College Football: Pollack emphasizes the belief that college football remains the greatest sport on the planet, driven by its passionate fans, storied traditions, and intense rivalries.

  “College football's a great game and we'll get these few things settled and iron back out.” [41:38]

Notable Quotes

• Mack Brown on Team Focus:

  “When they're uptight, loosen them up. When you think they're a little flat and standing around, you got to put your thumb on them and wake them up.” [10:26]

• On Coaching Impact:

  “A coach can change more lives in a year than the average person changes in a lifetime.” [23:44]

• On NIL and Player Stability:

  “The teams that have money will have stability with their roster and probably the ones that come in will have a better chance to stay.” [25:45]

Conclusion

This episode of "See Ball Get Ball with David Pollack" offers an insightful and comprehensive discussion with Mack Brown, touching upon legendary games, the pressures of high-stakes coaching, the transformative challenges posed by NIL and the transfer portal, and potential pathways to preserve and enhance the integrity of college football. Through engaging storytelling and thoughtful analysis, Pollack and Brown provide listeners with a deeper understanding of both the sport's rich history and its complex present.

Transcript

[David Pollack]

What's up, everybody? David Pollack here of Seaball Get Ball podcast. I hope you like it, man. Be sure to follow the show Wherever you subscribe, YouTube or any of your other platforms. All right, let's get it. Welcome in everybody to see Ball. Get ball. We have a special guest today on Seaball Get Ball. Brent Rollins is here, as always. I'm David Pollock. I'm your host. But we got coach Mack Brown and known Mac for a long time. Mac could have run for any office in the state of Texas at some point in his, in his life. Just one of the most jovial, happy guys. Like, always a good storyteller. Obviously, coaching at Texas with all the success, winning the national championship, retiring, so, so many worlds. Mac, it's, it's going to be so fun to do. I got to start with story time first. We always got to start with story time. But like, and then the transition into coaching at North Carolina and New school. So you've been a part of. You're such a good speaker to be a coach, to speak on the old school, the new school way and all the changes. But give me a, give me a story like, like, okay, usc, Texas. Nobody thought Texas could win, obviously. One of the most famous games ever. Rose bowl. So ridiculous. You guys went a natty. What's the pregame speech? How did Matt Brown rally the troops for. For that one?

[Mack Brown]

Well, first sprint and David, thanks for having me on. I love David and our time together at espn and he was such a great player and he's overcome so much in his life. And I was so impressed when you left ESPN that you were so positive and upbeat and you took negatives and turned them into positives. That's just who you are and what you've done your whole life. And that's what life's about. You know, people sit around and stay bitter and they're angry and it just, it doesn't work. It doesn't work for anybody. But in. And you with Lindsey, the same thing. You're so upbeat. She's so upbeat. And you're just, you guys are an inspiration for all of us. So I wanted you to know that. And that's one reason when you text me I wanted to be on, because I'm, I'm a huge fan of yours, who you are and what you do and what you stand for. Thank you, Texas. You 35 years, you haven't won a national championship. You beat Michigan in the Rose bowl the year before. Nobody thought you should be there. They thought Cal should be there because they were a Pac 12 school. So you beat Michigan on the last second bench. Young, your quarterback who's coming back for another year, stands up and says, we'll be back. And I said, what are you doing? He said, well we're going to be back next year. USC is going to be one, we're going to be two, and we're going to beat USC for the national championship. So we go through the season, we beat Ohio State and Columbus, which was huge because they were probably the third best team and that game probably decided who was going to play usc. Then you go in through the season, David, and you hadn't beaten Oklahoma in a while, so you had to beat them. Well, we killed them. And then everybody said, okay, we got this, we're headed to L. A. So here I am at mid season and I mean Sally's got a Rose Bowl T shirt on so I know I'm in trouble, man, when your wife is wearing a Rose Bowl T shirt near mid season. So after one game we come in and they're all the whole team's, we won the game. But they're over there watching the USC Notre Dame game with a bush push and they're screaming and when Reggie pushes Matt Leonard in for the touchdown and, and USC wins, the whole room just explodes. I said, what are you all doing? They said, coach, we want usc. We want USC in the national championship game. We don't want anybody else. So Harvey Pennock was a great golf teacher and he had this famous slogan, take that aim. Don't worry about the water, don't worry about the sand. You take that aim at that pin. So we got permission from Ben Crenshaw and Mr. Penix family and Tom Kite before the season to use that as our saying for the year. Take that aim. Because we're taking dead aim on Southern Cal. After the Oklahoma game, I could see this thing was out of control. We started, we checked our video of the week of the game and that we won and then we would check our stats vs USC stats for the rest of the year. I mean, so we were playing USC from, from mid season on. So then we go to the Heisman and before we're playing, we're playing, we've beaten Kansas 66 to 14. It's senior day, we've killed them. We're getting ready to go to A and M. They're 4 and 7, huge rival game, but they're really struggling. So I got a call from coach Bill Parcels and he coached me at Florida State and he said, man, you're in trouble. I said, coach, we're undefeated. We just killed Kansas. What's the deal? And he said, now you're like that fat rat that's sitting around eating poison cheese. And that's where that came from because he said, you're about to get beat. That's all you're talking about usc, you're not thinking about A and M. They've had a tough season. They win this game, it's their national championship. That's all they want. So I got off the phone, I ran downstairs, I got the equipment manager to drop cheese from every locker with his quote above it. Don't be the fat rat eating the poison cheese, man. Let's go. Let's go. Focus on the game. So at halftime, we're down 29, 24, and Reggie Bush that day kill Fresno. So that's the day Reggie won the Heisman and Vince Young lost the house. And we come back and at halftime, I said, you didn't eat all the cheese, so you're not going to die. We're going to win the game, but you damn sure got sick.

[David Pollack]

So.

[Mack Brown]

So they come back, we win the game 40 to 29. So then we beat Colorado 70 to 3 and had to hold that down because we knew we had a good team. So, David, we're in New York and we're there for the Heisman. Reggie's there, Matt Leonard's there, and Vincent there. So it's. It's the national championship game sitting there in front of me. But I could tell with Ricky Williams, they were all over us and they were talking to us all the time. Well, they weren't talking to us much. They were all over Reggie Bush's family. So I told Vince, I don't think you want. So I don't think you're going to win. So get your speech ready, because tough thing is the guy that loses the Heisman has to have a press conference, too. So I said, get yourself ready. So he said, no, Coach, I think I'm going to win. I said, no, I've been here, man. I don't think you're winning. So he didn't win. He. He gets on the phone, our whole team sitting in a room in Austin, Texas, watching it on tv. And he says, game on, man. Game on. Let's make sure we beat usc. So probably Vince losing the Heisman helped us. So then we've got to figure out we have a defensive end that says they're no good. They had a press conference the next day, and I wasn't there. And I should have been there. He said, USC is no good. I said, man, they won 36 straight games. They've won two national championships. We look dumb if we say they're no good. So come on, man, let's, let's just face it. So we decided to be the story of Troy. We're going to get in the Wooden Horse, we're going to go into la, we're going to keep our mouth shut, we're going to brag on USC or not talk about them, and then we're going to talk after the game. So, and that's a 50 day span between your championship game and, and playing the national championship game. So it's a long time. So we got there, David, and practices were good and I thought the game was good. We had Matthew McConaughey and a guy named Roy Spence. Started with a slogan also for the year that if you, you win the conference championship, you, you get your goal, you win the national championship, you get your dream. So we told the guys, now goals are out of the way. This is a dream, so let's go play for it. So I'm, I'm sitting there on game day. Been 35 years since Texas has won a national championship. We are playing a great team and we're in LA and they're trying to get their third national championship. I'm 54 years old, I'm sitting in my room trying to figure out, what do you say? I'm turning, I'm flipping tv, I see Pat Riley come on and say, I think USC is going to three peat like I did with the Lakers. I said, I don't want to see that. So I turned that off. So I turned on this show called Jerry Springer. I'd never seen Jerry Springer before, is unbelievable. So I, I look up and I mean, this is crazy. So I watched three 30 minute shows of Jerry Springer and I said, this team's uptight, staff's uptight. That's what I'm gonna do. So I knew what I was going to hit him with. So we go to the pregame talk. I walk in, all eyes are on me. And I can tell they are so uptight. But yeah, national championship, you're down to two. Nobody remembers who lost. You are down to two, man. You, you, it's, it's winner, you're out forever. And if you win, you're a legacy forever. So I walked in there and I said, thank you, guys. Thank you for getting us here. Thank you for, from your parents, from your coaches, it's your Team. You're the ones that did this. That's my, my friend, your friend, John Saunders. David, we love so much. We lost him. We hate that. But he is a wonderful him. So I said, so thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. And I said, how many of you have ever seen the show Jerry Springer? Well, all of them raise their hands. And I thought, oh, that's not good. And then I said, okay, I'm going to tell you something that's going to help you win this game, but it's also going to help you for the rest of your life. So, man, I've got them. They are locked in. And I said, if your wife or your girlfriend ever ask you to go on the Jerry Springer show, man, don't go. It's not good. And I mean, they died laughing. And I said, that's right. We're not going to come out here uptight. We're going to relax, we're going to have fun. We're going to be us and we're good enough to win. Being us, you can't try to be something you're not. Being us got us here, so let's just go do what we have to do to beat a great team. And usc, that, that's not going away. And that was the. Something I really learned about coaching is when they're uptight, loosen them up. When you think they're a little flat and standing around, you got to put your thumb on them and wake them up. And. And that's just part of what happened that night.

[David Pollack]

Yeah. Things I didn't have on the bingo card tonight was Mack Brown talking about Jerry Springer. I did not have that on the bingo card. Brent, go ahead.

[Brent Rollins]

I was like one of the kids because I was doubting. Okay, what's he actually going to say.

[David Pollack]

Here with all the things that go with that?

[Brent Rollins]

But Coach, obviously that's 20 years now with that team. And the anniversary, the 20 year anniversary that I saw where the Texas Sports hall of Fame is going to kind of commemorate that team. What do you remember most about the game itself? Like there a moment during the game where either. Hey. Just, just instantly comes to your mind about that specific game.

[Mack Brown]

Yeah. Brent, there was a great coach at USC named John Robinson and I love Coach McKay. I got to be around him a few times. But Coach Robinson was his running back coach and coached O.J. simpson and, and then he did a great job coaching at usc. So knowing that he had been in the Rose Bowl, I called and said, coach, what's this like? What do you do help me about coaching and playing in the Rose Bowl. And he said, I walk out there, coach, not many people get to do this. And he said, it's really cool. So sit, stand there and look into those mountains and see that sun going down and feel the history of that place. And then he said, then you got to go, coach, just forget it and go on, man. But it's just be so blessed that you're there. Then I was standing on the field with Pete Carroll before the game, and I love Pete and we're the same age and have grown up a lot in this business together. So happy now that he's back with the Raiders, he'll go kill it again. It's just who he is. And so I'm bouncing around. Stretch the other day, we're standing there before the game and he says, boy, your quarterback's really good name. You got a great team. And what coaches say. And he turns around, he walks off and Greg Davis, our offensive coordinator, comes up and I said, greg, oh my gosh, they got a great looking team, man. They have a great looking team. And Greg Davis said something I'll never forget. He said, we'll turn around. You've got a great looking team too. And. And I think there were 98 kids on that field that night that ended up playing in the NFL, which was just amazing. And. And then Leanne Ryan sang the national anthem and she's from Texas and I thought that was cool. And it was just an unbelievable game with there. About 70% of the fans were from Texas that were there and that was cool. But it's something that that state, not only just the university that stated, waited for. For. For 35 years and it was that important to all of us.

[Wes Blankenship]

Coach, I'm our producer, Wes. I'll keep it going for the guys because they are in a power outage. So that game, obviously legendary and like you said, your team was etched in history. What was the reaction in Texas with the pressure lifted and not just in any old game, but in a historic game like that. I mean, some people say it was the greatest game of all time. What sticks with you after that game that you will never forget?

[Mack Brown]

There were a number of things that I'll never forget about that game. First, the aftermath on the field was crazy. So I did find Pete Carroll and he said, it's tough losing this game, but you've got a great team and you deserve to be national champs. Congratulations. Then I got in to talk to our team and somebody said, there's a Knock on the door, and it was Reggie Bush and Matt Leonard. And they both hugged my neck and said, coach, great job, great team. You guys deserve to win. We missed you on the field, and we wanted to say that, which was very classy. And then you try to figure out what you say to your team. And the thing that I felt at that moment was, again, thank you. You won a national championship. You are the national champs, and that's very few people get to be the best team in the country, and you are. And then also, it hit me that I saw Roger Clements in there and Lance Armstrong and Rex Lynn, the actor, and Matthew McConaughey the actor. And I could see all these guys were really happy and really focused. So it was a moment where I thought it was a teachable moment. And I could say, you are champions. You are national champions in college football, and that'll never be taken away from you. And very few people get to share this moment, but don't let it be the best thing that happens in your life. You be a better father because of this. You be a better husband because of this. You be a better leader in your community because of this, and that'll be something that will really help you the rest of your life. And then when we got home, we had an amazing celebration. The whole stadium was packed with. With people celebrating the national champion. But I also was taken back that Texas A and M fans and Houston fans and TCU fans and fans from all over that state said, thank you for bringing the national championship back to the state of Texas, because football is so important in that state, and they knew that it would highlight high school football in the state. And I think that's one of the reasons that they were so excited about bringing a national championship back to the state, even if it was the University of Texas.

[Wes Blankenship]

For everyone still tuning in, I appreciate it. This is Wes Blankenship, the producer of C Ball, Get Ball, DP and Brent's Power have gone out, but I still got coach Mack Brown on with us, and we're so appreciative of his time. Before we move on to your return to unc, you mentioned the lift for high school football in the state of Texas, which it's hard to imagine the state of Texas ever needing a lift in high school football. But out on the road, recruiting that state and the talent that you were able to bring in, what are some of the key moments, some of the highlights that stand out to you of being in that environment and how recruiting Texas high school football stood out compared to the rest of the country.

[Mack Brown]

It's, it's such a wonderful thing to be the head football coach at Texas. It is a powerful position. And people talk about the pressure. It's really pride that that state takes in their football program. So I thought the old saying, pressures of privilege because of the pride in that state. And that's so true. So every time you would go into high school, people would just come up and be thankful that you were there. And there were 375 athletes when I was at Texas that were signing Division 1A football scholarships on the average each year. And you got to take 20 or 22 of them. So you had to do a great job of evaluation and then you had to develop. But you also then had 300 and something kids and families that were mad at you because you didn't take them. And they all hated the University of Texas and wanted to show you you were wrong. And they were fighting so hard to make sure that you beat them. There was a young guy at Oklahoma State once, intercepted a pass on the sideline and he turned to me and flipped it to me and said, wish you'd have taken me now. I said, yeah, yeah, I messed up, but sorry I didn't take you. But there were about 350 of those guys every year that you couldn't take. So you have to do a great job of evaluating in that state and then you still have to develop. But you, you also got to do an outstanding job with public relations because you've got to go back in those high schools. And so many of those high school coaches, you didn't take their player when A and M did or Oklahoma did or, or Houston or Texas Tech. And, and that, that made, made it where you needed to do a great job of evaluating, not a good job.

[David Pollack]

All right, coach, I'm back. The power outage was real, so it's good to hear you talking about that. And I think it's, that's such a, and you've seen it, man. It's just the state of Texas, obviously so many people that are passionate about football and want to have a say. And I think it's, it's a tough deal when you, when you're doing that, when you're picking kids and especially when you got that big brand. I mean, it's a big brand. Speaking of, you go from Texas, you go to unc, you get the Jordan brand, like new challenge. Obviously not an unfamiliar challenge with you from, from your coaching background and spending time early in your career in North Carolina. But how what was it like, man, going back at an older stage in your career and going back to North Carolina?

[Mack Brown]

David, I, I was with you with TV and I really liked it. I enjoyed having a team again. I loved, I did. I was probably crazy. I'd go Friday night and do a game or Thursday night and then get up at 4 in the morning and, and fly to Bristol and do ABC Countdown to Kickoff all day and then do Sports center on, on Sunday morning before we come home. But I love that. I love the game. I love the coaches, I love the kids that play the game and that's really, really important to me and it's what I want to continue to do, stay involved. And we got tired at Texas. Sixteen years is a long time at a place like Texas and Sally always said it's for presidential terms. So that's a long time to be at the University of Texas. So it was probably time for me to leave there and time for them to get somebody else new because you just, you get worn down. But what I learned is I was tired. I wasn't really ready to be through with coaching. So a lot of people would call and ask if you would coach in this place or this place. And Sally and I thought we'll only go to a place where we want to live and we would only go back to a place where we thought we could win within the rules. And North Carolina, we got married there, our kids grew up there. We, they went to school at North Carolina, some of them. So it was a natural when they called us and asked us to come back and, and I like fixing things. And the program was in a mess. They'd won three games two years before. They'd won two games a year before. Nobody was coming to the games. It was really sad to sit there at ESPN and even watch. And I really liked Larry Fedora but it wasn't working at the end. So. Well, we come back in David and we, you know what you, what you really get into coaching for and you coach, you've coached your kids and kids for your whole life. You get into coaching because you can change lives and that's what's so important. People forget that because we talk about the money, we talk about firing, we talk about how many you got to win. But really and truly, when Billy Graham said that a coach can change more lives in a year then the average person changes in a lifetime, that's pretty powerful. And Sally and I had a friend in the mountains that had a 19 year old son and the 19 year old son committed suicide. And it's when we first got there, and we didn't know our team very well, so we sprinted back to Chapel Hill, we called a team meeting and said, look, I don't understand suicide. I know it's not good for parents and for your friends, and it's. I'm not a doctor, so I can't get into all the stuff. But if you're struggling, forget football. Come on, man, let's talk about it. Let's get you some help. And we had a young guy named Jake Lawler that. The story's been public. It was public with espn. Come upstairs and say, you know, I was on a bridge last night. I was thinking about jumping, and you got my attention, and I need help. And here he is, a text with him probably about every two weeks now. And he's a great screenwriter for Disney, and, And he's in a great place. So you wonder why you go back to a North Carolina. That's reason enough right there. If you had a small part of, of changing his life. And then they hadn't been to a bowl game in a couple of years. They hadn't beaten Newton State for a couple of years. So we beat Duke five out of six. We. We beat State the first two years and then didn't do well against them. We. We didn't play as well. And, and you need to do that at that place. And before nil, David, we were doing really well. We're recruiting at a high level. We're in top 15, top 10, but within IL, we didn't have money. And you could tell it was just a slow bleed. I mean, you could tell it. We're. You're having to change who you recruit. You got to recruit guys that are a3.0 or above with your admissions, but they also needed to want to come to North Carolina academically because you couldn't give them money. And you needed to recruit families that had some money because it's understandable that if you're recruiting somebody and somebody offers them a lot more money than you had, then you, you're. You're not going to get them because it'd be unfair. Some of the moms said, coach, we'd like to come here. But I said, I got it. I totally understand.

[David Pollack]

Understand.

[Mack Brown]

And then you've got to keep your roster and you've got guys like Omarion Hampton last year that would. Could have gone anywhere, got offered so much more money than he. He had to stay there. But you gotta have a guy who wants to stay. So that's kind of the predicament a lot of schools are in right now. The house settlement will help. It'll be really interesting to see what the NIL Collective outside of the university's revenue share will be now. They say if it's over $600, you're going to have to have it vetted by a group. That'll be interesting. Yeah. So, so what, what's going to happen? Are they not going to let a guy make 5 million or 3 million or what's happening now? It'll be really, really interesting to see because we've lost a huge part of parody and hey Coach, I want to.

[David Pollack]

Know if, I want to know if Drake, if you're Jake, Jake Lawler kid, like is that possible nowadays or, and obviously it could be possible but like is it possible to, to really shape and to cultivate and to really make a difference in this, in these kids lives? Or maybe is it, is it just a lot harder now with nil?

[Mack Brown]

David I think the teams that have money will have stability with their roster and probably the ones that come in will have a better chance to stay. But like the North Carolina has already had 67 kids changed since January. So they're not going to have the experience you and I had. They're not going to come in with a freshman class and graduate with that same class and you're not going to be in the best man in each other's weddings and, and be best friends. And that's something I really hate moving forward. But I don't see that happening with, with the current model. It's going to have to change and it's going to have to change fast.

[David Pollack]

How do we fix it? Coach? Like I just think that, that you're one of the perfect personalities because you've lived in the old world, you've lived in the new world. You've done it at such a high level and been so successful, man. Like what is the first things that we need to implement or we need to change for to and listen, I think fans are going to see money for the coaches, money for the TV deals. The players deserve money. And I think we all agree. But like what can we do, man? How do we structure this where the kids do win? Because I think a lot of us that are in this business understand these kids aren't winning as much as we want them to. We want them to win more and at a higher level and learn and grow and make money. And so how can we do that?

[Mack Brown]

David? We're if a young guy transfers Five times his chance of graduating are nearly nothing. I think if you transfer once, some of the courses do not transfer in. So you've got like a 63% chance to graduate. You, you transfer a second, a third or fourth or fifth time, you're not going to graduate. You're not going to have a fan base who loves you, who will help you. You're. You're Georgia, everybody knows the school, you're loyal to, your people love you, you're recognized. That's not going to happen with a guy that transfers four or five times. So then you're not going to be able to get a job. You don't have a degree. And I really worry about mental health when, when this young person is out there and he made more money in nil to go to a school than he's going to be able to make for the rest of his life. So that's, that's a problem for sure. So we've got to look at what's best for the players, what's best for the families, what's best for the sport. And we've got to get a group of smart people together because we made decisions without looking at the consequences. And we can say, well, that's not legal. Well, the NFL is doing it. So whether it's collective bargaining, whether it's player unions, let's get a group of smart people. Let's get Congress, let's get commissioners, let's get ads, let's get presidents, let's get players, let's get the Drake Maze. Let's get the top players in the country and top coaches in the country, and let's get them all in a room. And let's say, okay, number one, let's. Let's throw out all the lawsuits and all that first. What's best? What is best for everybody involved? How do we get our game back?

[David Pollack]

And Mac, isn't that. Mac, isn't that the first thing that happens? Like, we want change. We want to go do something. Oh, I'm going to get sued. Lawyers. And now it's like, I'm scared. Crap, I'm out of here. So if we take, if we take one thing at a time, Mac, like transfer portal, do we have one window? Is. Is it in January or is it May? You're the commissioner. You're the guy on this committee. What, what would you do right now?

[Mack Brown]

I would move the playoffs back as far as I could, and I would have one window, and I would have it in January, and I would try to have it after the national championship game and before school starts the next, the next two or three weeks and then you have your team for the spring. Cal, I was told, lost five running backs after spring practice. How do you lose five running backs and replace them? You can't. So we don't need people tampering with guys all spring. We don't need guys out in spring practice that are thinking about leaving and we don't need coaches that are coaching kids that aren't going to be there. So let's, let's go through our season. Let's do the best we can do. Probably going to have to cut back on some games during the fall or move them back a little bit. But let's try to get the season over where we have a window where we can still transfer if you want to. Because the top kids know where they're going anyway. David, They've got agents now that I don't even think they call it tampering anymore. Because usually when the kid says I'm in the portal, but listen, I don't want any contact. Well, yeah, he knows where he's going.

[David Pollack]

I wonder why.

[Mack Brown]

Yeah. Or the kid says, yeah, I'm not in the portal, but I'm transferring. Well, you can't, bud. So somebody.

[David Pollack]

That's the transfer portal. Coach. I like that one window. You do it in January. What about Nil? And let me tell you something, Coach, that I feel. I feel like we should have a rookie salary cap. I feel like the kids that come in instead of incentivizing before you've done anything, Mac. Like these kids are coming in and making all this money and you haven't proven anything. You haven't earned it. You can say I did this in high school. Everybody was successful in high school. There's a million kids that are successful in high school. Like, I would love to have a salary cap minimum or maximum for the. For those rookie kids that I think would slow some of the. Because here's the thing. I got a son, Nicholas. He's. He's a rising junior. Next year he's starting to get recruited. Like, the last thing on my mind, Mac, is money. And listen, I'm in a different situation than a lot of people, but I'm like development. Where's where suits you the best? What are the things that you like? How do you go reach your full potential and find a spot that's really, really good for you? And I think we could deter some of that by doing a rookie salary cap like that. What would you say about that, David?

[Mack Brown]

I Think we should have a salary cap, period.

[David Pollack]

Yeah.

[Mack Brown]

And we should definitely have a rookie salary cap. And coaches are calling around anyway and say, what's the going rate for a quarterback? A great quarterback. So we're kind of doing that anyway. But if the NFL can do it, then why can't college do it? And it would be better for the players, it'd be better for the families. Then you can go back and think about if North Carolina and Georgia can offer you the same amount of money, then you can go back and have some money, but also make a decision on which university is best for you. And then Nicholas can start thinking about what's best for him. We always said it's a, it's a 40 year decision, it's not four. Yeah, well, the last few years it's been a one year decision. It's been a six month decision. And we, we can't have it. David, where we, we had a situation where if you come in for bowl practice and you're starting school in January, you could go to bowl practice with us and transfer somewhere else. If you got mad at bowl practice before you, you went to school in January. So, I mean, that's how ridiculous it is right now. So. And so we need to get to the NFL model for the first time. I think their model is so much better than the collegiate model that we've got to get back to where. And we've got to do it with some urgency, but we've got to get back to where there's a salary cap and coaches are making decisions on development of players and it goes back to what is your true value. And I mean, you got to get some common sense back in this stuff because that's what we've done. We've lost our common sense because smart people have made these decisions. And by putting common sense back in it, then we can do that. And the other thing, I was president of the American Football Coaches association and I remember sitting there and there were 17 board members and we all said we can't vote on what's best for our school. Because I was at Texas and a lot of the other schools needed different things than Texas. So I consciously had to make a decision about what's best for our game, what's best for everybody. And that's a hard decision to make for a coach or an AD or even a commissioner if it's not his league, what is best for the game. And right now we've got to get people that are thinking about what is best for the game and instead of what's best for their school. Because we've got to get our game back.

[David Pollack]

And that's why I think people like you that don't have a dog in the fight anymore, people like you that have lived it have. Is now outside of it. Because. Because the bottom line is if you get a coach now that's in a school, well, you're making X, you have a dog in the fight, you. You get other people that are involved, you're making Y, like, so I think that's a big deal. So we talk about transfer portal, we talk about nil coach, what about contracts for players? So there is some form of a coach. I went down the road 45 minutes from my house. 45. And I was homesick. I was legit. Like, I want to go home. Like, I don't know. This is. I don't know where this is. I don't know where this is. I don't have any friends. Like, I was homesick. But then I realized, man, I started to figure out where the library was. I started. Not so much the library, but I started to figure out where all the things were and started to make friends and started to grow up a little bit. And I think we lose some of that facing adversity and growing from it. And I know everybody wants to say money, money, money, you can still get paid and you can still go maximize opportunities. But how do we hold people to maybe pushing through some of the suck, pushing through some of the new to get to where this might be the best place on the earth. On earth. This might be where I'm supposed to be. How do we. How do we merge that gap between school and player, I think we can.

[Mack Brown]

Do that again with salary cap. Because if I'm not going to make a lot more money to go to ucla, if I'm in Athens, Georgia, and UCLA offers me and I'm just throwing out names so you UCLA fans don't get mad. But if UCLA offers a lot more money than Athens and that seems to be what someone thinks is their worth, then. Then that's not good. It's not fair, David. I would sit there and we'd have a recruit come in with his parents and we'd spend Friday night with him at dinner. We'd recruit him all day Saturday, showing academics and talking about how he play and where he'd fit and what we do with him. And then on Sunday, you get in there and he'd say, coach, I want to come, but my parents and I have to ask you a question. That's really awkward and we hate to ask it. And I said, yeah. They said, how much are we going to make? And I really started thinking we should ask them on Friday. How much are you going to ask for? And then let's don't worry about Saturday and Sunday and all the academics and all the other stuff. If it's going to be just about.

[David Pollack]

Money, you can take yourself out of the equation quick.

[Mack Brown]

Yeah, just ask us how much it's going to be and, and it'll be a transaction. Because Sally and I always looked at the fit. You were a perfect fit at Georgia. We, if we had a guy in Clayton, North Carolina, and he was recruited by everybody in the country, I always thought he's better off coming here because he's going to live here, he's going to make relationships with boosters here, he's going to be a name here, and that's going to help him for the rest of his life. And, and right now we're losing some of that because it's too easy to have somebody throw some cash at you and flash it in your face and then you run for the cash. And, and I understand if you don't have any money, even if parents need a house payment, I understand it. I got it completely. But if we can help take that issue out of it and get back to what's best for each individual. And nil should be about a lifetime. Because your name, image and likeness. Where you are now is a lot more important than it would have been if you had gone to another school. Because everybody knows again, you went to Georgia, you were a superstar, you built a name and a brand. So your name, image and likeness is still working today. And that's something that young people and families need to understand. This is for a lifetime. It's a 40 year decision, not a 4. And if you transfer every year, you're not going to have a place. And we all need a place to be able to settle at the end.

[David Pollack]

That's where you get the, the stories of Jake Lawler, you know, like, that's always going to be home. And I think we all can relate to that. Well, Mac, here's the cool thing, man. Regardless, we appreciate your time. College football is still the greatest sport on the planet. It's still awesome. The fans are still great. The traditions are unmatched. The rivalries, the hatred, it's, it's all great stuff, man. And, and I think we need to make sure that we, we say that and we love the game. We're just thinking about ways to make it better, you know, and that's. It's not. It's not. It's not. We're upset about where the game is. We just, like. We've seen it in a better spot, and I think finding those rules, Coach, I think we'll get there, but we appreciate your time and all you've done for the game, the way you've carried yourself, with your character and all these. We. We very much appreciate it. What's. So. Talking to you today and texting with you, apparently, the golf game is getting pretty solid because. Did we shoot under 80 today?

[Mack Brown]

No, we. We were. We were at 82, so we weren't under. Under 80. So we're getting closer. I got to get in the 70s. That's where I am now, so. But when you don't have that recruit calling you about nil every five minutes while you're standing there on the course and you can swing a little bit more and enjoy it, it's a lot different than coaches golf. Coaches golf. You're usually with a booster. You're usually answering the phone, and you're not. You don't even know what your score is or care. So now it. It's such a challenging game, and I can't wait to watch the Open this weekend at Oakmont. Oh, my gosh, that's going to be so much fun. But it's such a challenging game. You. When you. You. You have to reinvent yourself. You did that when you left espn. I'm doing that now. I'm reinventing myself. I'm not coaching. So how do I get challenges? How do I get fun stuff every day? How do I get a purpose? What do I do? What can I help? Who can I reach out to? And all those things are things that I said. You don't retire, you rewire. So I'm rewiring and figuring out what's next.

[David Pollack]

Well, that's great. Well, if you're. If you're trying to keep your blood pressure down, I would not recommend golf. I mean, golly, because I've played every sport known to man, and I can be good at most sports. And there's nothing like getting those just straight kicks between the legs in golf. I mean, Matt, here's what I hate. I. In football, man, I could bring more energy, physicality. Basketball, you can try harder. You can't even get happy in golf. Like, if you get up, then you have. Then you come right back down. You can't get down. It's literally a lesson in futility. And Just, I just, I don't recommend that, Mac, if you're trying to keep the blood pressure down.

[Mack Brown]

David, I've got a 14 year old grandson who moved back to my tee box and he's driving as far or further than I am and I mean at 14, so. And I tried to keep him up. I said don't move back. It's not good for you, it's not healthy for you. I knew it was coming and now I'm swinging too hard because I'm trying to out drive my 14 year old grandson.

[David Pollack]

Well, circles of life, man. We appreciate you what you, what you gave to the game, coach, and the way you've always carried yourself. Thanks for joining us on cball. Get ball, Coach.

[Mack Brown]

Well, thank you, David. Thanks for having me on. You're so right. College football's a great game and we'll get these few things settled and, and iron back out. But ratings were up as much as ever in the playoffs last year, so it's not going away. We just got to make sure that we take care of our wonderful game and those kids that are playing it and the parents of those kids and the coaches that are coaching it.

[David Pollack]

Dang right, coach. Appreciate you, brother.

[Mack Brown]

Thank you, David. All right.

[David Pollack]

Well, it's always good to have Mack on, man. He's just, he's full of wisdom and full of experience. I think it's good. And some of the changes that that coach is talking about, there's, there's all kinds of things going on right now that are going to continue to shape the landscape of college football. And you know, the Pac 12, you know, it went down to the two pack, the pack two with Washington state and Oregon State. Now it's back to growing and expanding and Boise State is going to be joining the Pac12 and Colorado State and Fresno State and Gonzaga and then with Oregon State, San Diego State, Utah State and Washington State. So they're working on TV rights for, for the Pac 12 and that now, you know, brings that back into a conference and a lot of those schools, man, that you kind of just got left behind or you kind of forget about now has a chance to, to kind of hook up, find its, find its home, find a place for them. And I think that's really, really good. And I think the, the TV deals are always a big deal because once they get a TV deal now you get money and then once you get money, obviously the conference can continue to grow, continue to expand. You know, last, last year for, for today is, you know, the new NCAA policies now and We've, we've heard a lot about the house, you know, getting involved. And what does that look like in for the ever changing world of college football? Well, there's a couple of things. There's three parts to the new system that I think is really important. One is the cap management. Like, teams are literally going to go, okay, here's my team, I'm submitting my budget. Here's my budget. Like, we're gonna, this is what we paid X, this is what we paid Y. So think about like a, a whole sheet of your company, your corporation, wherever you're at. And you're going to have to say like, this is where I'm sending this, this is where I'm sending that. And, and that way you kind of have the system in place. Because the other part of that is the NIL is the NIL Clearinghouse and this is the police system. Anything outside of the staff, anything outside of the collective and everybody working together will now be policed, will be, Every dollar will be accounted for. Like boosters can't, can't really now go, oh, I'm going to do this on the side. If they do and it's found out about it, like, fair market value is going to be determined and then you're going to have to have, you're going to have to speak for this. And so I think the big thing is, it's interesting because the NCAA has had these rules. They've had no ability to enforce them. Now we're kind of working around the ncaa, so think about that. That's what they're doing. You're forming these new committees like the NIL GO and the Deloitte Run NIL Clearinghouse. That's basically now going to have the enforcement arm. That's the third thing. They're going to be able to slap the hammer down on people that do the wrong things. The NCAA hasn't had the ability to do that. Now you're making a task that's separate. It's a new business, it's a new corporation, it's a new LLC that is going to have the opportunity to, to levy, fund or to levy penalties. And we've seen some of that. And another interesting thing with that, like, you're kind of the power brokers in the Sport. So the SEC and the ACC and the Big Ten and the Big 12, like, they're kind of putting this together to do it themselves. What is the NCAA doing? Like, what, what, what, what power does the NCAA have? Is this. Are we basically getting to the point now, where we can say, why do we have the ncaa? Are we, are we going to get away from the ncaa? Because I don't see a point for them. I mean, we're, we're continuing to stretch this. And listen, there's. There's also this. The house settlement will not have back payments, by the way. So this is curious to me. How are they going to figure out which former athletes they're going to pay so that there's $2.8 billion in back pay that they've, that they've agreed on, that they're going to go back and pay athletes from 2016 to 2024? No, I didn't say 2004, because that would have been fantastic if they'd go all the way back to when I was at Georgia. But you have a chance to go back and they're picking thousands of athletes, and then those athletes are going to have the opportunity to now to get money. A $2.8 million budget or billion, excuse me, with a B. I messed that up. That's a B. To go back and pay these athletes. What does that look like? How does that look like? Who do they decide? How much do they decide? Just so many questions, I think that are going to be. Going to be interesting. But basically, schools, like, with, with all the new rules, all the things that are going on, schools now can directly pay their athletes. Like, that's. That's where we're at. And I don't know how that sits with you. It's. It's strange. They can pay their athletes. There's an annual salary cap and then there's a hammer. Like there's going to be severe punishments. And we've talked about that on C. Ball. Get ball already. Like, that's, that's the thing. In the end, if we're going to deter. If we want to use a new system and we want to get some assemblance that will really help the players to grow, to benefit, to grow long term, to, to sustain the game, to stabilize the game and stabilize the coaches. Because. Because here's the thing. Like, it's not just the players that are. The players are skipping all over the place, obviously, and you have that ability, but the coaches are burning out, man. I mean, this is a hard life now. I was at Ole Miss with my son and he had a camp a couple weeks ago and like, talking to the coaches about their calendar and what that looks like now. It used to be a whole dead month in June where you did absolutely nothing. Well, now, because this is Basically a business. Now you can, you don't have the rules. Like you can do seven on seven. I don't know that this even matters that you, that like it used to be where you had, now you had, you know, rules. You can't do this. You can only do 20 hour rule. Well now because we're employees, like now the seven on sevens in the summertime, like this is high intensity. When I was in school, you couldn't have a coach out there. Like your coach could not take you through drills. So that's where leadership was really important. Like you had to lead your guys. The older guys had to take you through bags and take you through seven on seven. Quarterbacks had to get involved and you know, now the coaches have that opportunity. When they have that opportunity, obviously it's good for them. It's good to get their hands on their guys, to coach them more, to install more before you get to the point where, you know, it gets to, it gets to camp and it's not counting so ever changing world it's getting. But, but I do think the conversations are being had. I do think we're going to continue to evolve and we'll grow and maybe grow to superpowers because the SEC in the Big Ten has the power. Power. But I think Mac are the type of guys that can help us get to that next stage. Guys that have lived it, guys that have done it. Appreciate you guys continuing to join with us, continuing to grow here on Caball. Get ball. It's, it's cool to look on Apple and the, the podcast and to watch us, you know, in the top five. That's, that's so crazy. It's so fun. We're, we're appreciative to that. And, and we'll be back Wednesday to continue to talk about the changing landscape, continue to get guests because college football, again, even with the, even with the stuff that we talked about with Mac, still the greatest sport on the planet by far, bar none, because of the fans and the passions and all the stuff that comes with it. So thank y'.

[Mack Brown]

All.