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See Ball Get Ball with David Pollack
Super Bowl Scouting: Revisiting CFB Stars' Grades | Senior Bowl Story Time with Matt Miller
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Super Bowl Scouting: Revisiting CFB Stars' Grades | Senior Bowl Story Time with Matt Miller
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- [00:00]
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Vanguard Advertiser
And how about that Pollock interception in the end zone.
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Host
Well, it's David Pollock and I think people going to learn what kind of ball player he is. He's got a heart of a line.
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Matt Miller
I'm real proud of that kid. This is C Ball. Get Ball. College football's top show for football analysis, predictions and coach interviews. Now here's your host, three time all American, seven time Emmy award winner.
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Host
All right, welcome everybody in to Seaball. Get Ball. We got our guest Matt Miller back. He's back from the, from the Senior Bowl. So I'm sure that was actually, you know what, just tell me how much does that help you as a, as a scout, as a guy that does this 24 7. This is your job. Like what goes on at the Senior bowl that helps you do your job.
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Matt Miller
Yeah, and this is my 16th Senior bowl this year which made me feel old. I had dinner with a scout group of us on Tuesday night and he was like, man, I've been reading you since junior high. I was like, please, I don't know.
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Host
How to say that again, don't say that.
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Matt Miller
But also you know like as you like, longevity in this business is hard to come by. So it's like, it's also a compliment to, to think, okay this, this guy's in his early 20s, he's been reading me since junior high. That's only like 10 years. Okay. But still it's like it's a Compliment. But at the same time you start to see the gray in the beard and you realize people have been reading you since junior high. It's a little weird. But the Senior bowl is great for me because, you know, I, I have a great group of people that I work with at espn. We have a great team around us, but I'm a one man scouting department. You know, Kuyper and I aren't watching film together and talking about players because, yeah, we want to be on islands. Jordan Reed and I talk a lot, but we don't watch players together because we want to, we want our own individual thoughts. And so you're really a one person scouting department now? Yes, I talk to NFL scouts. You talk to coaches in college. In the NFL, you talk to agents. You try to collect as much information as you can to fill out that puzzle. That is an individual player scouting report. But the Senior bowl is great for me because I have not seen 135 guys in person this year. I just haven't. So to put the top 135 seniors or graduate players in location, so I can say, okay, you know what? I can watch Chris Johnson, the corner from San Diego State, I can watch him against Malachi Fields, a wide receiver from Notre Dame. You're not going to get that opportunity in season to see those guys against each other. Cole Payton, the quarterback for North Dakota State, I thought he was the best quarterback there all week with guys like Garrett Nussmeier from lsu, Diego Pavia from Vanderbilt, who's the Heisman finalist. Those guys are there. And here's Cole Payton from North Dakota State standing out as a lefty quarterback. And so the Senior bowl is incredibly valuable just to give those best versus best experiences. And I'll shout out the Shrine Game as well. I didn't get to go this year because the weather that impacted, you know, kind of the southern states. So I wasn't able to get to, to Frisco for the East West Shrine. But they do a great job there as well of finding those players and putting them in the situations where you really want to evaluate them. Yeah, there's a game that happens at the end of the week, but this is really like a scout's paradise where you can have players put in individual and team situations where you're able to evaluate what those skills might be.
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Host
See that? That's pretty cool because I never thought about that, but it is. It's the. You don't get those matchups, but you get those matchups every day. You get to watch them in practice. And so, so here's what I'll say. Who, who did you just, who, who immediately wowed you with their body? Like you walked up and you were like, what is that? Like, is that a human? Like, who wowed you from that capacity?
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Matt Miller
Caleb Banks, defensive tackle from Florida. And it, you're right because every year there's that guy where you're like, I've seen the numbers on a piece of paper but you know, I'm about five, ten and a half. So seeing these guys who are six foot five, 335 and they move like incredible athletes, that's what the standout is. And this year was a little bit light on those type of players that, you know, the first guy off the bus type. But Caleb Banks from Florida was that and it was cool to see him because he missed so much time this year with a foot injury but got healthy. And I love guys that will get healthy and bet on themselves at the shrine of the Senior bowl instead of saying, you know what, I've read the mock drafts. I'm a top 50 pick. I'm going to wait for the combine or I'm going to wait for my pro day guys that bet on themselves and say, I'm going to go to Mobile, Alabama and I'm going to prove myself for four or five days and try to elevate my draft stock. Banks did that and he had a great week. I do think he answered a lot of questions about injury. So he helped himself. TJ Parker from Clemson was another one where I've been watching him play on TV for three years. I'd never seen him in person because I'm in Missouri, he's in South Carolina. He doesn't, Clemson doesn't come to this side of the Mississippi very often. So to watch him play a person and to see the long arm, something that you and I talked about two weeks ago, to see the long arm ability that he has, the length, the power in his hands and then how well he counters off of that to watch that in person and not just in one on ones. Because I do think, and I'll say this to a defensive lineman, I think one on ones are slanted heavily toward defensive linemen over offensive tackles. So I understand how that works.
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Host
But agree because we know it's a pass. Exactly. There is no, there is no play action like we, we 100%. We're, we're only working on pass rush.
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Matt Miller
Exact. Thank you for say, because you know, a lot of PO clips will get put out of viral, you know, this Miami offensive tackle gets run over and it's like, listen, this is not, this is not a fair assessment of how four days of practice went, but TJ Parker had a really good week and I think he solidified himself as a first round pick.
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Host
Okay, so go, go opposite then who, who's the guy that, you know, like, I, I, I didn't wow you. Or that you thought, man, that dude is, is a lot smaller. Like to me it kind of, kind of goes to Diego Pavia because somehow he was listed at 6ft at some point, which is like a bold faced lie, by at least three inches, maybe more. But anybody that you were like, man, they're, they're smaller than I thought.
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Matt Miller
You know, Garrett Nussmeier was. And again, you know, you see the measurables on, on paper, but you know, 6 foot 205 can look really different body to body. You know, people carry weight differently. Some guys are high cut, meaning longer legs, shorter torso. Some guys are the opposite. I was surprised and I've been warned, hey, when you see Nussmeier in person, he's just not very big. And he's not, he's another guy coming back off injury. I thought this was his breakout week. I thought we would get back to that first round stock that we had heard about coming out of the Manning passing academy. Coming out of last season where he played well, I thought the arrow was pointing up for Nussmeyer. Obviously injury affects things, but I really thought, okay, this is going to be his week. And I wasn't blown away. Now, I've talked to scouts who feel opposite. They've said, no, no, like he, you know, he steadily improved every day. Like by the time with the game came around, he was the MVP of the game. And I, I do think that's something that is easy to lose in scouting players, especially at an event like the Senior bowl, because you might watch defensive lineman day one and then day two, you're watching offensive lineman and, and sometimes you can't miss the trajectory of a player. Why it's important to come home and watch that practice footage. Quarterbacks on day one never look good because they're throwing the guys they just met yesterday at breakfast, right? There's timing, there's, there's a lot. It's an NFL ball, it's just different.
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Host
So I want, people don't throw at the combines.
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Matt Miller
Exactly. So in Nuss Meyer, it's like the idea of, okay, let's get you, let's get you, you know, home. Let's go through the film, you know, it's. Everything's so different down there that I do.
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Host
Did you go back, though? Like, because, because, because I. What I said on the show Monday, what I thought would happen is now people are going to go, okay, I need to go back and watch last year's tape from Nuss Meyer. Because that was, I think, over 4,000 passing, 29 touchdowns, 12 picks. And, and, and, and I'm not gonna lie, Matt, there was several times during that season a year ago, especially the first six games, eight games for him, where I was like, I'm not sure there's anybody. I take over him.
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Matt Miller
Like, I agree, yeah, 20, 20 makes.
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Host
Some throws that make you go, what? Like, you're not supposed to do that. Like, so does it make you do that? Yeah, it does.
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Matt Miller
And I think I'm so big on context. Like, I want to know why. Like, if something changed for the negative, I want to know why was injury, was it scheme change? Was it players around you, like, what changed? And I think that's where the combine is so important for these guys. Senior bowl as well, because you get time with teams where teams can say, all right, man, like, what happened? Why? Why did this year look so different than last year? And to find out those answers, you know, obviously they just had a head coaching change down there. So you're, you're not going to get a whole lot from Brian Kelly as far as. All right, what was going on, the ins and outs of Garrett Nussmeyers last year? But those are the important questions, and that's why I use the puzzle analogy. Like, we're still flipping over pieces, looking for the corners at this time of year. You know, we're, we're not even close to filling in the middle of the puzzle when it comes to a lot of these players.
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Host
So what else? What else? At the Senior bowl, you get to spend time with a lot of people, a lot of different walks. What was the. What was the buzz? What was everybody talking about, you know, around there with college football, with the NFL, with anything?
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Matt Miller
You know, honestly, the most conversations I had was about Nil and the calendar and it. And I, you know, I had dinner with a group of us, had dinner with Major Applewhite, who's the head coach of South Alabama. He was a great college football player during his time at the University of Texas. He's worked under Nick Saban, he's worked under Tom Herman. Like, he'. He's been around college football for a long time, and, you know, sitting next to him at dinner Talking about the calendar and nil, especially at a, you know, a group of six school like South Alabama, how they have to compete with the big schools and it's, it's the wild west out there right now. And I won't pretend to have the answers to nil regulation or the calendar but something has to give because you know, I use the analogy to major of you guys are the Oakland A's. You know, you're just finding players and developing them so that the New York Yankees can come along and steal them. And it's unfortunate, you know, there has to be, there has to be something that happens that, that centers the balance or, or we're going to have to accept the fact that there's going to be like 25 teams that can actually compete in college football every year and the rest are just mid majors. You know, it's, it's almost like they're not even in the same conference or the same level of play anymore.
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Host
And it's so weird because we've got, we've also got college football and like I think people are going well, it's in such a good spot though. Like Indiana just won. There's parody like so I think there's a. People are watching. It's not like people aren't watching. You know, people continue to without a doubt. So that's why I think this, that's why I think it's hard to like if it was suffering and the money wasn't coming in like it would be. We have to fix this right now. But like it's still a very successful business. So it's kind of hard I think for people to wrap their brain around it.
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Matt Miller
Especially when you have Indiana, Texas Tech, you know, you have non traditional powers making it deep in the cfp. That absolutely helps. Right? That, that shows that. Okay, it's not just the blue bloods, you know, and we haven't really seen Alabama dominate in the NIL era. They're a good team, but not like they were before nil. So I do think there's also a.
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Host
Guy named Nick Saban that kind of was pretty good. That kind of, that kind of excuse it. But, but, but listen, Nick has Made no bones about it. Nick left because of Nil. So, like, there's a lot of great coaches that are continuing to leave the sport because of the, the way the sport is. So I imagine there's some fun conversations. Anything else that you get to, you get to dump right here because this is a, a great platform. Anything else that, that blew you away or that really came to mind?
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Matt Miller
Yeah. Like I told you, this is my 16th Senior bowl and something happened for the first time. Leaving practice Wednesday night, run into Minnesota Vikings general manager Quesi Adolfo Mensa. See him Wednesday. Talk about, hey, he's got to go back to the hotel, watch film. This is a really important draft for them. Friday morning, he gets fired. This is the latest in the process I've ever seen a general manager get fired, you know, the week, the week before the super bowl. And there were only two general manager openings this year. So it's not like the Vikings, you know, had to make a decision in December so they could get a jump on the candidate pool. But it is, it is surprising and it, the journalist in me wants to know what, what happened. Why do you bring a guy to Mobile, let him start evaluating this draft class, let him take meetings with players, meetings with agents, and then, boom, Friday morning, he's out. So I think there's, there's a curiosity that I have that I want to know the rest of that story. And I'm sure someone will, will do a great job. Someone will write it on that. Yeah, someone will write it. But I think that's, you know, that's the buzz right now. The Senior bowl game on Saturday didn't get a lot of buzz. It was, could you believe a GM got fired this late in the process? And now what do the Vikings do? You know, a team that hasn't drafted well, they really haven't. Justin Jefferson was a great draft pick, but, you know, they have not hit on day three, they have not hit on day two. And even a lot of the first round picks, you know, the jury's out on JJ McCarthy. Louis scene was a bust for them. They just, they have not drafted particularly well. And that goes on the gm.
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Host
I mean, every time, like the coaches, the coach, I, I, if you watch Minnesota, I don't think anybody says there's a coaching problem. Like, I, I think that you see that there's been some issues and obviously the quarterback spot is an area, but like, all right, so let's spin this forward a little bit. Super bowl, man, coming up. Let's do this. This will be A fun. Let's re scout some of these guys that you. That you. That we got at the top. To me, the biggest winner in the super bowl and the biggest guy to talk about is Sam Darnold, because I think this guy's been left for dead 65 times. He's. He's been called a game manager. He's. He's been. He's not good enough to do X, he's not good enough to do Y. Like, where did you have Sam Donald coming out? And then like, what do you think about his maturation and just the pro. The path and the process, the way he's gotten here?
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Matt Miller
Yeah, 2018, Darnold was my number one quarterback. And, you know, for a long time, that looked like a bad take, and it might still be because Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen were in that class. But I. I was a big Sam Darnold believer, and I had Josh as my number two quarterback that year. Baker was in there. Josh Rosen was also in there. So really good quarterback class. But I was just a believer in Darnold's toughness and the way that he elevated the team around him. At usc, there were so many. Do you remember the game against Texas where It's like the fourth quarter, USC's losing, and Darnold just absolutely willed that team back into the game. And, you know, the athleticism, the accuracy, I was shocked that, that it didn't work for him early, but it is great to see him go through that process of learning and battling through adversity and not doubting himself, having the confidence to say, hey, when I get my shot, I'm gonna be ready. When you go to Minnesota and have that great year, you know, you're the number one seed. You have this fantastic year, and they say, we're gonna move on. We're gonna go with the young guy. Now you're in another new spot and taking that team to the Super Bowl. Year one. I'm incredibly happy for Sam, but I was. I was a big fan of his coming out, and that was a tough year to. To break out the quarterbacks into tears because there were so many good ones. And, you know, we talked about a couple weeks ago, I was the world's biggest Josh Allen fan. I just thought that the lack of.
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Host
Action, by the way, I was. Yeah, like, nobody was. Nobody was putting Josh Allen as high as you had him.
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Matt Miller
Right. And, like. But Josh's accuracy was always going to be the question mark coming out of Wyoming. Can you get over that? And so I had he and Darnold pretty much, you know, one, two, right there. But it's, it's cool to see where Sam has gotten. And I'm glad that is a story this week because there's so many life lessons in that as well. You know, just battling through adversity, not giving up, believing in yourself, even if the rest of the NFL doesn't. And then when you have that opportunity, seizing it and capitalizing on it.
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Vanguard Advertiser
Yeah.
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Host
And yet, and in fairness, he had a good year last year with Minnesota, but the playoff was not good. You know, obviously they had a good squad and so finishing the way he did, I, I get it. How about a guy that has jumped on the scene and I mean his talks about being the NFL mvp, like he's in that conversation. Drake May.
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Matt Miller
Yeah, I had Drake as the, the third quarterback, but again, a historic quarterback, guys, because you had Caleb Williams, who I think Caleb is, you know, the next great NFL quarterback. Jaden Daniels was in there coming off a historic season at lsu. Coming up, a Heisman Trophy run. And then Drake May. It's funny because Drake is one of the few players that regressed in his final year at North Carolina, but it hasn't affected him in the NFL Generally. That's a, a warning sign, you know, that regression from year two to year three or year three to year four. But you look at what he lost.
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Host
Is that why you didn't want. Yeah, that it was.
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Matt Miller
That's why I bumped him down. Just that regression. And you know, you could look at it, you know, they lost their two. They had 2,000 yard rushers. They lost those guys. Their number one receiver was, you know, not eligible to start the season and they were really counting on him. So I think with Drake, you had to watch the last part of the season once he got comfortable with the receiving crew, once the run game got going. But I mean, he's a, he's a heck of a quarterback and he does all the things you want. You know, it's watching him I see. You know, Justin Herbert was my comp for him. And I think we may be to the point where we start saying he's Justin Herbert. Plus because it's a little more clutch, quite honestly.
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Host
Well, you know, the thing about Drake May, I think that both of them, I get it. First of all, they look kind of similar, you know, obviously in the body types, in the frame. The one thing that, like I think. And Justin Herbert makes those plays off script. And you've seen him like, he's such, he shows toughness and he'll get Hit. But there's something about Drake that it's. It's more. It's. It seems smoother to me. Like, it just seems like he. And you see his basketball clips of Drake May, like, he's just smooth. Like, you see the clips of him in high school and stuff. Like, that dude was an athlete. Like, he was an athlete. He knew how to play. He just. There's something about him that he's got a better feel to me now. Listen, he played horrible versus the Broncos. Like, he was. He was not the reason that they got there. But. But I definitely think Drake May's got something to him. What about Will Campbell? Drafted really, really high. You know, obviously it's early. It's. It's very early for him. And. And he's been banged up this season, and he quite honestly hasn't been elite.
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Matt Miller
But.
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Host
But how about where you had him coming out?
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Matt Miller
Yeah. Adam is my top guard prospect. I really thought the arm length conversation would get him kicked inside by a lot of teams. I'm happy, I mean, very happy with. With how he's looked as a rookie. And they have their left guard. Jared Wilson has been a huge part of that, too. Those guys are a fantastic team together coming out of your alma mater. Jared kicking out from center to guard has been great, but I had Will as the top guard. He and Kelvin Banks were right there together as my top offensive lineman. And I do think it's funny because I think Denver showed some of the weaknesses to Will's game that he's going to have to learn to cover up, because the length does show up at times. Sometimes it doesn't, you know, but I think he can do some things with his stance. His footwork is so good, though. I mean, he's so quick. And usually quick feet cover up short arms. So that's something I think he can learn over time to improve, whether it be through his stance, through his leverage, but, you know, elite leadership, elite football iq, just, you know, a competitor through and through, and one of the better athletes you're gonna see at his size.
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Host
Yeah. All right. This. This guy, the weirdest, the craziest thing that I. That I saw covering this guy in college. I'm going with Jackson, Smith and Jigma because I remember him sitting down with Garrett Wilson and Chris Olave and those guys. And I remember Herbie asking him who's the best?
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Matt Miller
Yep.
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Host
And they all went. Jackson, Smith and Jigba. They all looked at him like, in a room full of alphas, in a room full of freaks, like There was just something about him coming out like. And now you start to see it, man. Obviously the numbers have just taken off and he is, he, I mean, makes the spectacular one handed catches, he makes the easy catches, but I mean, he seems like he's really developed into one of the better ones in all of college football or in all of the NFL.
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Matt Miller
Yeah, I'm gonna pat myself on the back here. He was my number one receiver in that class. And in fact, that was the draft that was in Kansas City, which is, you know, kind of home, like home area for me. I remember being at the Lowe's hotel the, the night before the draft and his parents came up to me like, hey, are you, you know Matt Miller? And I was like, yeah. And they're like, we just want to say thank you for believing in him. Like, because we believe in him. But you're the only guy out there saying he's the best receiver in this draft. And like, we, we think so too. And then they're like, but where do you think he's going to get drafted? You know, so it's like, well, he's.
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Host
Going to go first round.
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Matt Miller
It's probably gonna be in the teens, you know, 15 to 20. Price somewhere in there.
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Host
So who was in that class with him?
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Matt Miller
Oh my gosh. What, 2022? Is that what that was? I don't know. I feel like all these covet years have run together for me now. So maybe it was 20, 23. I'm gonna have to pull it up, to be honest.
- [21:26]
Host
Pull it up. That's fine. It's fine. How we'll do that? Because I think that, I think I remember it was a pretty good class. Like, yeah, it was. You knew you were going to get value wherever you got it, like in that draft.
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Matt Miller
But yeah, it was a great, it was a pretty good draft. I had him as my number five overall player. So Will Anderson, Bryce Young, Bijan, CJ Stroud, Jackson Smith and Jigba. That was, that was the rankings for me. Zay Flowers was in that class. Jordan Addison was in that class. Jalen Hyatt, Quinton Johnston. So like there were some guys that went pretty early, but I had him as the top receiver.
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Host
All right, what was your, what was, what did you love about it? What stood out the most about him?
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Matt Miller
You know, I'm one of these guys. I, I love good route runners because I, I think way too often we focus on speed and I just. Don't you need some speed? You know, it's like when you go to an Amusement park. And there's a thing that says, you gotta be this tall to ride. That's speed for me. A wide receiver.
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Host
But how to have enough, right?
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Matt Miller
You just gotta have enough. But being a great route runner, if you can get uncovered because of your route technique and your timing, that's going to translate. So like in that draft class. Josh Downs is not draft class. Josh Downs was drafted, you know, early. He's been a good player, but he's like, he's a speed guy. Jalen Hyatt coming out of that Tennessee offense, he's a speed guy, you know, like they haven't developed. Whereas Jackson Smith, the Jigba route runner, he's always going to be open, that's going to carry over. So that's what I loved about his game. You know, the knock on him was, oh, he's so small, he's only ever going to be a slot. I mean, okay, cool. He's starting to catch 119 balls and be a chain mover and he's got yards after catch speed and he's incredibly shifty with the ball in his hand. So I, I tend to gravitate in this era of, of the NFL. I gravitate more toward route runners than I do guys that can only win with contested catches or can only win with speed. I just, I would rather have a well rounded player at this point.
- [23:15]
Host
Yeah. And the game, the rules, and the freedom of movement for guys too is also changed. Like, small guys aren't the same as they used to be because small guys used to get their face knocked off like they just used to. They used to go across the middle and when you could hit however you wanted to, you couldn't play. Like, you just couldn't play physically, it was too much. But. All right, next guy. Speaking of speed, you talked about speed in droves. Travion Henderson.
- [23:39]
Matt Miller
Yeah. So I had him as my number four back last year. And a great running back. Class no. 1 was going to touch Ashton Genty. I had a Marianne Hampton up there pretty high. And then I basically had the two Ohio State guys together, Judkins and Henderson. And with them, I think you're picking, you know, which flavor of ice cream do you like? You know, do you like chocolate? Do you like rocky road? Like, they're all good. It's ice cream. We just have different preferences. Trayvon was that outside zone guy, home run speed. Great receiver. Quinn Shaw was more of your between the tackles, pounded out 226 pounds. They're both, they're both fantastic runners. Henderson I was surprised when New England took him because I thought Vrabel would want more of the between the tackles pounded out, you know, four yards and a cloud of dust. And then they go with Henderson, who is, you know, all outside zone. His inside zone tape at Ohio State was almost non existent. You know, you had to really, really dig through there to find it. But he is incredibly explosive and he was all throughout college, you know, every, every year in college, he was that dude.
- [24:40]
Host
He was always making the big plays. I think that sometimes you see in this process, right, like, okay, yeah, he hasn't. He's an outside zone guy, but I bet he can learn the inside. I bet he can still. And I'll be honest because I watched him because I'm a fantasy nerd and I drafted him high in fantasy. Like not relatively high, but like it took him a long time to get used to the NFL. Like, and I say a long time. Like you watched him throughout the season, like not see it kind of just run into the back of people, you know, fall forward to okay to where he was a little bit better and he had a little bit better feel. And then you started to see where okay, his feel was better, his feet was better. And then when you get one on one of the safety, like good luck a lot of times. And then you saw the big plays, the home runs, like those explosive plays and obviously can do it in the past game. So I think you, that's one of those things where you bet on like, oh, I can teach him a little bit of this. He's got the character, he's got the speed, he's got the attributes. Everything else kind of lines up for, for him. So I think you kind of, I think you kind of do that in the process sometimes, right. Like you, you, you, you look at the, the what the upside could be if, if we teach him a few things. Yeah.
- [25:49]
Matt Miller
And I think with, with Trivian is my favorite thing about him was his wheel route ability like that he was unguardable on wheel routes and we saw that in the cfp, you know, a year ago. So I'm with you. You could teach some things. And I think with this is like a longer rant. We are way, way too quick to judge rookies. I mean quarterbacks, it's probably like a year and a half at this point. But could we at least wait till Thanksgiving before we throw somebody out? Like can we just let a guy learn the playbook fully and get, you know, know all his teammates get used to games? We say, yeah, before like, oh, my God, this guy's a bust. It's like, wait, how long do you.
- [26:25]
Host
Think you should give him? You think year two, like year three?
- [26:28]
Matt Miller
Yeah, it used to be three years. That used to be the rule. Three years before you evaluate a draft class. I think it's probably. I would say Thanksgiving year, too. You know, if it's not clicking by then, there's probably some question marks, you know, And I was like, you know, Marvin Harrison Jr. You mentioned all these great Ohio State receivers. We're two years in, right. And it hasn't happened yet. I think it's fair to say. Okay, what's going on? What. Why is this not working? Is it the quarterback? Is it the scheme? Yes, it individual. Like, what. What is the reason? But if we had this conversation a year ago, like, I'll just wait and see, you know, I mean, everybody wanted to write off Caleb Williams in September. And, you know, everybody was wanting to write off Bryce Young years ago. And we talked about Sam Donald. Everybody wants to write guys off way too fast. And I. I know it's not fun to be patient. It doesn't get you on the TV shows in the morning to be patient, but it's okay. Like, it's okay to pump the brakes a little bit.
- [27:19]
Host
Yeah, no, I. I get that. I think in a world with fantasy football, too, and you're taking these rookies and you're like, man, like, I need you to perform. Like, what? What are we doing? And I think you've seen. You saw a lot of backs this year, man. Get some. R.J. harvey had to step in and get time. But you. But you saw them all. Like, listen, there's very. Aston Genti was probably. It was infuriating to watch because you'd watch him, you know, make a good six yard run sometimes, and he broke four tackles to get six yards. And you're like, what? I wouldn't want to be in this if he goes to Denver right now. Like, if he'd have been in Denver this year, he'd had a blast.
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Host
Bite it.
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Matt Miller
Shh.
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- [28:53]
Host
Terms apply like he had a mother freaking blast. And it would have been a lot more fun. Like, if he's in New England, it's a lot more fun. But I think Rabes did a good job of Stevenson bringing him along together. Learning, learning, learning. Still use both guys because Judgins and Henderson had each other as well, which Henderson never put a lot of miles on the tires either, which I think was good. All right, Kenneth Walker the third speaking time, speaking of needing time, like, this guy has never been the guy. And like, it feels like Charbonnet has always been there. And it's always like as they like Charbonnet better, like he, he's going to get more touches. Like, Kenneth Walker's never really been like the standout guy, but all of a sudden, man, he's kind of blossomed into a freaking baller. And we saw that when he was in college. He was Michigan State's team that year. Like, it was incredible.
- [29:44]
Matt Miller
Yeah, I had to go back my 2022 rankings. But, you know, he has been, he has been the guy. I had him as the number two back that year behind Breeze Hall. It was a pretty good running back class. James Cook was in that. Daniel Pierce, who had like a decent year as a Rookie. Brian Robinson Jr. Was in there. So. But Walker, what I mean, he was that entire team in Michigan State, you're right. But that to me, what always stands about him was that inside, outside vision, like he had such a good eye for. And the patience, I think, to know when, when to bounce or when to just like stick his foot in the dirt and go. Like, when to just be happy with the 3 yards instead of trying to string it out, string it out. So many college running backs, all they want to do is get outside. And Walker wasn't that guy. You know, he's always had, I think, the body type, the strength to be, you know, much more powerful, especially at the point of attack and to find those lanes on the inside. And we're seeing that Seattle like It's, it is fun when you get a guy in the right scheme. You get in the Clint Kubiak scheme and it's like, all right, cool. This is the zone scheme. And the way that they have these guards now, you know, guys like Grace Abel, they can actually move and get to the second level. It just has opened up so many opportunities for him.
- [30:51]
Host
The short area quickness for him really stands out. Like, he just. Good Lord. There's unblocked defenders in the hole and he just makes a miss really quickly. Like, it does not take a lot of space. Like, you could play touch football on an elevator and lose to him. He's quick as. He's quick as it can be.
- [31:06]
Matt Miller
And.
- [31:06]
Host
Yeah, and you're right. And you've seen with the 49ers, you saw in the NFC championship game too. Like, he gets to the edge. Like, he knows when to bounce it. He know he'll, he'll get outside when he, he'll make big plays by bouncing it. And it's. And it feels like it's a feel thing. Well, there's not, there's not a way to do this with Seattle's pass rushers, because they're rushers. But. Yeah, what about, what about those animals up front? Because Mike McDonald's done an unbelievable job of finding those guys.
- [31:31]
Matt Miller
Yeah, and I think a lot of that is really good coaching. But Byron Murphy was the top three. Technique. Technique, excuse me, in his draft class. Leonard Williams was for a long time, the standard, you know, of what you looked for is really a complete three down. Defensive tackle Derek Cole was a really good player in College. You know, DeMarcus Lawrence Tank is obviously, you know, the veteran that you need, but they've just drafted well and it's crazy. Like they're just, they've drafted outstanding athletes that are well rounded guys that can play the run. They don't have a lot of situational players. They have just guys that line up and play ball and then they supplement it well with linebackers who can float. You know, they, they keep those dudes clean. Ernest Jones, you know, was a castaway from the Rams and now he's an all pro player. Luciano Nuoso is such a great scheme fit coming off the edge for them, even as a little bit of an undersized backer. So they've, they've just done a great job, I think, of number one, identify what their scheme needs. But then also McDonald has taken what was those existing parts and saying, okay, like, maybe there's not a seamless transition for a Guy like a Leonard Williams, but we're going to slide him in. You know, with Byron Murphy, it was okay. That's going to be what Justin Mauque was with the Ravens. He's going to be a version of that with the Seahawks. So it's. Sometimes it's easy to see, like, okay, that's got. This guy's going to be that for you. But. But then you. You get a Leonard Williams check. All right, how do we. How do we make this work? And he's been fantastic.
- [32:52]
Host
So do you do it like. Do you do it like. There's a lot of times when we start to go through guys and you look at people play, do you immediately start to say, that's a Raven, you know? Oh, yeah, that's a.
- [33:03]
Matt Miller
Absolutely.
- [33:04]
Host
That's a. You do that when you're watching people.
- [33:06]
Matt Miller
Last year, watching Colston Loveland, I said, that's Sam LaPorta. And I was like, okay, well, guess where Ben Johnson is. Chicago. Okay. They have a need at tight end, even with, you know, a pretty good guy there, Cole Comet. It's like, this is an easy. So I got. I got killed for putting Coastal Lovely to the Bears in my mock draft. And obviously it worked out, you know, because Ryan Pull saw the same thing. You know, if. Okay, this can be. This guy can be our Sam reporter. So, yeah, you absolutely watch players and say, yeah, that guy's a Raven or that guy's a stealer. You know, it's. Especially some of those, you know, classic teams. But I think we're at the point now where you, like. You watch a guard play and you're like, okay, that's. That's, you know, somebody in that Shanahan tree. That's. That's where this guy's gonna be best, you know, the undersized guard, great agility, outside zone. Right, Exactly. So, yeah, I think it's hard not to. And, you know, you don't watch guys a whole lot and say, like, oh, that's a New York Jet or that's a Cleveland Brown. Like, you don't. You don't get those a whole lot, but more of those, you know, historically, great teams. New England, it was like that for a long time until, yeah, kind of till the end when they lost their touch a little bit on drafting.
- [34:11]
Host
Lost their touch is a good way to. That's the nicest way I've ever heard that saying. Like, they went senile. It's amazing to watch them and the way they identified players, especially defensive players, like, and then all of a Sudden it just got worse and worse because, because remember, we could, we could name the hall of Famers. Like, we can go the Rodney Harrison's and the Ty Laws and the Bruskies and the Frables and down. And we can, we can keep Seymour's. Who they. We can go down the list of guys that they, that they could find. And then. God dog, like, then it was like, what are you. What are we doing here? Like, what on earth. Who made that pick? And that's. And then. But Brave has turned it right around. Like, so it's kind of, it's kind of crazy that it's sitting here. All right.
- [34:53]
Matt Miller
Last year I knew the dynasty was over when they took Cole Strange in the first round. I remember being on the desk. I was at bleach report still. And when they came in the ear and like, Cole Strange, Patriots, I was like, did I fall asleep for two rounds? Like, what are we doing first round? And they're like, we don't have like the first round highlight package for this guy that, you know, pre production stuff is like, we're. We're going to have to make this up on the fly a little bit. We got to know what here.
- [35:18]
Host
Sorry, guys.
- [35:19]
Matt Miller
Yeah.
- [35:20]
Host
No one thought this was possible.
- [35:21]
Matt Miller
Yeah, that's. That's when I knew that was. That was the end.
- [35:25]
Host
That's when I knew the touch was gone. The magic touch. All right, last thing. Matt. Dude, if you, if you're watching, and I know you are, but, like, it's amazing to watch. And so you're, you're obviously plugged in the NFL, but you also watch college. Like, it's amazing to watch. Now I was just making a list and I'm just writing down and Indiana and their QB coach and Notre Dame and coaches and Georgia and coaches. Like, everybody's losing. Every college, major college program is losing one, if not multiple guys to the NFL. Like, it just. Oh, yeah, it seems like it's a common theme. It's like, people are like, I'm gone. I'm. I'm out of here. And I guess. I guess the question is why?
- [36:05]
Matt Miller
I think it's what we talked about at the beginning. I think it's nil. I honestly do. And I'm pro nil. I want to say that, like, I'm. I'm pro players being compensated for what they do for these programs. And I'm. I'm pro. The ability to license yourself. You know, I was, I was hanging out this morning. My son's playing college football before school. Your voice is on the game. Right. We're pro ability to license ourselves. Right. We want to be able to do that. I did it for seven years with Madden and that, that's great. But there has to be something has to give because you know when you are trying to build a program and you're going to lose a second string tight end to a major program where he maybe is never going to play, but you can't pay him 80 grand because you're at a small school. Like what are we, what are we doing? And I, I think that's where a lot of these college guys you say okay, the calendar in the NFL might be a little harder. Not anymore. It's the same calendar these days because of the portal. Because next year, get this dp next year the college world national championship game is the Monday night of Senior bowl week. We will be at the Senior bowl and guys will still be playing college football. It's two weeks before the Super Bowl. It's, it's wild how long this season. So go to the NFL, make more money and you don't have to recruit. There's no recruiting and you don't have now you have to recruit every year. It's not just high school recruits, it's now I got to recruit my own hundred players that I have on scholarship every year. So I can't imagine being a college coach right now. I would rather be a position coach in the NFL almost than a head coach in college. Just because the, the way that you have to continually beg 18, 19, 20, 21 year olds to, to stick with you after, after you get them signed.
- [37:48]
Host
With a system that's just incredibly vague. But yeah, it's crazy to watch, you know, Indiana and co offensive coordinator and quarterback coach Whitmer, he's gone. Miami defensive pass coordinator Etheridge is gone. Like those are the two national championships teams and the list goes on and on, man. I mean just so many people that are, that are making that decision and you're absolutely right. But it just, it shows you the state of college football because otherwise this, this is something. People were leaving the NFL to go to college football.
- [38:19]
LifeLock Advertiser
Absolutely.
- [38:19]
Host
People wanted to go be a part of something that was unique and special and team building. Right. Like, and, and I get to go help guys develop. Like I want to be a part of their development and their growth and help them maximize them. Well now it's not like, and we can debate this all we want but like the college football is very transactional. It's not relational anymore. It used to be relational. It used to be. You're building relationships with your teammates, with your coaches that are going to last a lifetime. Well, now you're like, no, this is going to last 12 months at the very most. Like, maybe we'll be together for that long. Like so the, the social ability, the leadership, the finding your voice, the development amongst the team, it's just, it's changed and it kind of shows you 100% the state of the world we're in. Because this did not happen five years ago, six years ago. This, this absolutely did not happen. It was not a part of NFL, like, yeah, or college sports going, yeah, I want to go get in the NFL.
- [39:15]
Matt Miller
Yeah, it used to be it's a better life. Go to college. You can golf all summer, you can actually see your family. You're not at the building till two in the morning. And you know, I'll give credit to NFL teams because they've absolutely innovated in that way. And there's been some coaches who pushed back and said, like, no, I'm, I'm gonna spend time with my family. I'm, we're gonna get out of here at 10 o' clock at night. You know, at some point we can work too much on these things. The NFL's done a really good job of that. And I, I think, you know, if, if I were working for an NFL team, absolutely, we would be watching college coaches to identify who are those up and comers? Who are the guys, you know, who's the, the DB's coach at Georgia? Can we go grab him to be our DB's coach? Or like, where, where's the, you know, who are the hot up and comers? And, and it's smart because you can, you could poach really talented guys that just don't want the grind of recruiting anymore. Now you mentioned when the greatest college football coach of all time retires because he doesn't want to deal with nil. That probably should have been the point to stop and talk about these things. Of like, okay, maybe, maybe we need to figure something out here and we'll see what happens over the next couple of years.
- [40:17]
Host
Yeah, they're not, they're not walking into your office in the NFL and going, hey, Coach, like, you're going to give me this or I'm going to leave. Like, your guys are your guys. And that's, I don't care what line of work you work in. You want to work in the knowns. The known quantities. Like, I know I got X, I know I got Y. I'm a better coach when I know I'm a better cook when I know what ingredients I have and I'm a piss poor cook if I don't know the ingredients right. Like, and that's the same thing. Like you don't know who's going to be there. You don't know what you're going to be able to use. It's a, it's a, it's been a weird time. We're hoping with the one transfer portal window and the like the changing hopefully that we continue to, to iron and iron it in. But Matt, appreciate you my man. Jumping on with us, the great Matt Miller. You see him at espn. Obviously we continue to hear his takes. We'll continue to talk through his takes too with college too, man, because he literally eats, sleeps and breathes college football too. Rough life, man. Matt told us the last time he joined us, you know, Saturdays consist of watching football. Sundays consists of watching the NFL. Like he, he's got it all covered. So we're going to continue to pick his big brain every, every Wednesday here on C Ball. Get ball. Thank you all for joining us. We'll see you guys later.