Bonus: A.M. Homes interviews Margaret Atwood

Summary

Selected Shorts: Bonus Episode – A.M. Holmes Interviews Margaret Atwood

Release Date: June 26, 2025
Host: Symphony Space
Episode Title: Bonus: A.M. Holmes Interviews Margaret Atwood

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In this exclusive bonus episode of Selected Shorts, hosted by Symphony Space, acclaimed novelist A.M. Holmes engages in a profound and insightful conversation with renowned author Margaret Atwood. Recorded live at Symphony Space, the extended interview delves deep into various facets of Atwood's literary journey, her perspectives on feminism, time, dystopian fiction, and the unique Canadian sensibility that influences her work. Below is a detailed summary of the key discussions, enriched with notable quotes and timestamps for reference.

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1. Introduction to the Episode and Guests

The episode opens with a brief overview by Margaret Atwood, highlighting the focus on her latest short story collection, Old Babes in the Wood. Atwood introduces the themes explored in the collection, ranging from futuristic visions and whimsical fantasies to realistic depictions of marriage. A poignant mention is made of the story “Widows,” performed by Ellen Burstyn, which revisits characters Nell and Tig through a letter after Tig's demise.

Notable Quote:

“The collection has it all. It explores terrifying futuristic visions, whimsical fantasies, and realistic depictions of marriage.”
— Margaret Atwood [00:48]

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2. Exploring Time and Aging

A.M. Holmes initiates the conversation by pondering the concept of time and how it influences both personal experiences and literary narratives. The discussion touches upon how perspectives on time shift with age, allowing individuals to live in multiple temporalities simultaneously.

Notable Quotes:

“So, one way of explaining it, I suppose, is to say that older people remember what it was like to be young.”
— Margaret Atwood [03:11]

“Do you feel, though, in terms of both your lived experience and in your fiction, that the way that you experience and use time, like, I think more and more about time existing and people and experiences sort of on multiple platforms simultaneously, that we can be here and in the past and the future all in the same moment.”
— A.M. Holmes [02:50]

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3. International Women’s Day and Handmaid’s Tale Symbolism

The conversation naturally transitions to the significance of The Handmaid's Tale in contemporary feminist movements. Holmes remarks on the global protests where women donned Handmaid costumes, symbolizing solidarity and resistance.

Notable Quotes:

“So, yeah. So, how does it feel to me? Well, smart them, and they're welcome to do it. Be my guest. If it works, then that's what you do.”
— Margaret Atwood [06:21]

“They marched from Westminster to the embassy, and hundreds of women were wearing the Handmaid's costume and carrying photographs of women who'd either been killed or arrested in Iran.”
— A.M. Holmes [05:51]

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4. Feminism and Misconceptions

Holmes raises a critical point about common misconceptions surrounding feminism, particularly the stereotype that feminism equates to hatred towards men. She cites examples of feminists who embody respect and love for men while advocating for equality.

Notable Quotes:

“There are 75 different schools of feminism I know which you know. And therefore, one picks a section and the sect that I align myself with... is Equality Now.”
— Margaret Atwood [08:48]

“And they work on laws having to do with girls and women to make the laws themselves more equal.”
— Margaret Atwood [08:48]

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5. Canadian Sensibility and National Identity

A substantial portion of the dialogue delves into what constitutes the Canadian sensibility. Atwood elaborates on Canada's vast geography, multiculturalism, and the country's approach to indigenous languages and cultures, contrasting it with neighboring nations.

Notable Quotes:

“Canada is very large in area, and we have an unofficial national song called 'Canada's Really Big'.”
— Margaret Atwood [11:46]

“Canada is multilingual from the get-go. Not just French and English, but 52 spoken indigenous languages.”
— Margaret Atwood [12:29]

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6. Writing Dystopian Fiction

The discussion shifts to the prevalence of dystopian themes in contemporary literature. Atwood offers insights into why authors gravitate towards dystopian settings, suggesting it as a means to explore social realism in a veiled manner.

Notable Quotes:

“They're writing that kind of fiction because they're afraid to write social realism.”
— Margaret Atwood [16:31]

“Dystopias are a kind of what if scenario. Like what if things get really quite a lot worse than they are now.”
— Margaret Atwood [16:43]

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7. Navigating Writing That Is Scary

Atwood reflects on the challenges of writing narratives that evoke fear, emphasizing the importance of conviction in her creations. She asserts that if a story can captivate and convince the writer, it holds the potential to resonate with readers.

Notable Quotes:

“If it convinces me, I think I probably better keep going.”
— Margaret Atwood [17:47]

“If you're not convinced by it, nobody else is going to be either.”
— Margaret Atwood [17:47]

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8. Closing Remarks

The interview concludes with mutual expressions of gratitude, highlighting the profound impact of Atwood's work on both Holmes and the broader literary community.

Notable Quotes:

“My work has made possible my work and the work of many, many people.”
— A.M. Holmes [09:50]

“Thank you. Thank you very much.”
— Margaret Atwood & A.M. Holmes [18:22]

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Conclusion

This bonus episode of Selected Shorts offers listeners an intimate glimpse into Margaret Atwood's thoughts and philosophies. Through a rich dialogue with A.M. Holmes, Atwood elucidates her perspectives on time, feminism, national identity, and the essence of dystopian storytelling. Her reflections not only provide a deeper understanding of her literary endeavors but also offer valuable insights applicable to both writers and readers alike.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “The collection has it all. It explores terrifying futuristic visions, whimsical fantasies, and realistic depictions of marriage.”
  — Margaret Atwood [00:48]

• “Do you feel, though, in terms of both your lived experience and in your fiction, that the way that you experience and use time, like, I think more and more about time existing and people and experiences sort of on multiple platforms simultaneously, that we can be here and in the past and the future all in the same moment.”
  — A.M. Holmes [02:50]

• “So, yeah. So, how does it feel to me? Well, smart them, and they're welcome to do it. Be my guest. If it works, then that's what you do.”
  — Margaret Atwood [06:21]

• “There are 75 different schools of feminism I know which you know. And therefore, one picks a section and the sect that I align myself with... is Equality Now.”
  — Margaret Atwood [08:48]

• “Canada is multilingual from the get-go. Not just French and English, but 52 spoken indigenous languages.”
  — Margaret Atwood [12:29]

• “They're writing that kind of fiction because they're afraid to write social realism.”
  — Margaret Atwood [16:31]

• “If it convinces me, I think I probably better keep going.”
  — Margaret Atwood [17:47]

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing both depth and clarity for those who have yet to listen. Margaret Atwood's eloquent discourse offers valuable perspectives that resonate beyond the realm of literature, touching upon societal structures, personal growth, and the enduring power of storytelling.

Transcript

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[Margaret Atwood]

On this week's selected Shorts, we dedicated the entire hour to the great Margaret Atwood. The episode features part of a conversation between ATWOOD and novelist a.m. holmes, who recorded at our live show at Symphony Space. As promised, here is the extended interview. They talk about everything from feminism, time writing and dystopian fiction to Atwood's new short story collection, Old Babes in the Wood. The collection has it all. It explores terrifying futuristic visions, whimsical fantasies, and realistic depictions of marriage. In the heartbreaking story Widows, performed in the program by Ellen Burstyn, Atwood revisits characters Nell and Tig, a couple featured in several Atwood collections in the form of a letter after Tigg has died. Now here's Margaret Atwood and a.m. holmes.

[A.M. Holmes]

There is about this book a melancholia that feels deep and serious and not different because it's through everything. But hearing you go back to these characters, this couple is both beautiful and kind of heartbreaking. One of my questions that I had it sort of phrased in a different way is I want to ask you about time and has time changed for you both as you've gotten older in the sense that people can live in multiple times simultaneously?

[Margaret Atwood]

How old are you, dear?

[A.M. Holmes]

Old, actually. I know I'm faking it pretty well, but I'm pretty old.

[Margaret Atwood]

No, you're not.

[A.M. Holmes]

I'm the same age as the year I was born. I'm 61. That's for me. I thought I was never gonna get past 15. So, you know.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yes, I didn't think I was gonna get past 30. We all have these. I know exact of these things.

[A.M. Holmes]

But, you know, if Keith Richard can do it, we can do it. Right?

[Margaret Atwood]

Anyway. Yes. So you're a mere child. I'm Just telling you that, of course, time changes, but it changes for everyone. So this is just something, as human beings, should we be so lucky? We all move through.

[A.M. Holmes]

Do you feel, though, in terms of both in your sort of lived experience and in your fiction, that the way that you experience and use time, like, I think more and more about time existing and people and experiences sort of on multiple platforms simultaneously, that we can be here and in the past and the future all in the same moment.

[Margaret Atwood]

That happens. So one way of explaining it, I suppose, is to say that older people remember what it was like to be young. But young people, although they dread and fear, don't know what it's like to be older, although some writers have taken a stab at it. I'm thinking of Muriel Spark writing Memento Mori. She was quite young when she wrote that. I'm thinking of Tennyson writing Ulysses and Tithonus as two companion pieces about being very old. He was young poet at the time. I thought he did a pretty good job, especially with Tithonus. But, you know, this is. This is the thing, and your perspective changes. So when I was quite a lot younger, such as 18 or 19, I wrote a story about a woman who was very, very, very, very, very, very old and all dried up and sort of wrinkly and withered and passed it and now 27. No, she was 40.

[A.M. Holmes]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Margaret Atwood]

Good guess, though.

[A.M. Holmes]

Y.

[Margaret Atwood]

So somebody else describes somebody in her 20s, describes sitting on a bus and hearing some teenagers talking about that lady the way you talk about that lady. And then she realized, I am that lady. I am now that lady.

[A.M. Holmes]

Yes. I always thought when I first got to New York City a long time ago, I thought, I'm never going to be that lady in the Greenwich Village post office wearing black jeans and whatever. And I'm like, oh, my God, I have been that lady so often lately.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I'm beyond that lady. I know I'm at the point where I can get my bag put in the overhead bin on the plane, and I don't even have to act indignant about it. In fact, I bring it on by climbing up on the seat and trying to put it up myself.

[A.M. Holmes]

Well, they're gonna stop right there. That causes a flurry.

[Margaret Atwood]

That causes a flurry, I can tell you. Oh, get down off there.

[A.M. Holmes]

That's really funny, because usually they say, oh, no, we're not allowed to help you. But I guess if you're climbing on the furniture, they'll probably go for it, right? Exactly.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, if not the attendance, some other passenger will Write.

[A.M. Holmes]

Yeah.

[Margaret Atwood]

They freak out, be giving away these trade secrets.

[A.M. Holmes]

There's so many paths I want to go down with that. But I also want to say today is International Women's Day, which I would like to say that Margaret started a.

[Margaret Atwood]

Bit like Mother's Day, you have to admit. Like, why? Only. Never mind.

[A.M. Holmes]

So I don't.

[Margaret Atwood]

So I don't always be grateful for the one day.

[A.M. Holmes]

Right, right. Exactly. And there are protests today all over the world. And in London, they marched from Westminster to the embassy, and hundreds of women were wearing the Handmaid's costume and carrying photographs of women who'd either been killed or arrested in Iran.

[Margaret Atwood]

Exactly. Yeah.

[A.M. Holmes]

So I guess I'm curious where that landed with you, and how does it feel to have created and to carry that and to see it continue on and accrue other meaning.

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay, so I didn't invent women feeling outraged. I did not invent that.

[A.M. Holmes]

It started with time.

[Margaret Atwood]

It started with reality. Okay. But the fact that we live in an age of television means that this is a very instant visual symbol. So it was actually some women in Texas who kicked it off. They wanted to wear Handmaid's Tales outfit into the Texas legislature, which was filled with guys in dark suits who looked like a shot out of the Handmaid's Tale series, I have to say. And they sent away for something they thought was going to be these red outfits, and when they arrived, they were pink. So this was not going to do. So they very quickly sewed them, and they are perfect in a way because you can put them on, you can go in. You cannot be expelled for being disruptive because you're not saying anything. And you cannot be expelled for being immodestly dressed because you are all covered up. But anybody looking at you knows what that means. So it did spread all around the world. And I can say that it is still being used because it is so immediate and visual. If we were just in the age of radio, this would not be happening. Yeah, but we are beyond the age of radio. And I saw this this morning when I was looking. I saw March. I saw them. They got to the thing and threw off the outfits as their gesture of, I'm not doing this anymore. So. So, yeah. How does it feel to me? Well, smart them, and they're welcome to do it. Be my guest. If it works, then that's what you do.

[A.M. Holmes]

I have so many questions, but I thought, I'll go by what's happening in the room. One of them was also about feminism. So I was thinking about how so often it seemed to me that the idea was presented not by women necessarily, that if you were a feminist, you had to hate men. And all of my favorite feminists, you, Grace Paley, are, to me, incredible examples of women who love men deeply and are still feminists. And I guess my question is, how do we teach people that feminism doesn't mean hate men? It just means, like, get paid equally and be treated fairly.

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay. There are 75 different schools of feminism I know which you know. And therefore, one picks a section and the sect that I align myself with, and we did the launch of the testaments with them is Equality now. Right. And they work on laws having to do with girls and women to make the laws themselves more equal. So we all know that just because you have a law doesn't mean that it's respected. Can be window dressing and all the rest of it, but at least it is an indication that this is how things ought to be. So I'd rather work on the legal structure of things rather than be back in 19. Do I remember 72. And it was deeply symbolic whether you wore overalls and work boots.

[A.M. Holmes]

Right. Hopefully, at some point we'll get to a longer conversation with more. Whatever.

[Margaret Atwood]

More questions. Absolutely. Should I live that long?

[A.M. Holmes]

You will. Absolutely. You must. You must. Because I would be. I would feel very alone, actually.

[Margaret Atwood]

Oh, dear.

[A.M. Holmes]

I feel like I've turned into, like, one of those comedy shows that gets really serious at the end. No, I would. I would feel terribly alone. I think, you know, as a side note, this is. Your work has made possible my work and the work of many, many people when it were not for the adventures and. Yeah. I mean, really, there's no way that we would have been able to do what we do.

[Margaret Atwood]

It's very sweet. I thought the Silence of the Lambs made possible.

[A.M. Holmes]

No, Margaret, you know, the funny thing is, I don't like scary things. I can't watch scary things. I can't read scary things.

[Margaret Atwood]

But you write scary things.

[A.M. Holmes]

People do scary things. But I know. Yes, but I don't. I don't.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah, you don't roll around in it.

[A.M. Holmes]

I try not to because it's upsetting. So. Growing up, my parents were always like, we're going to move to Canada. If Nixon gets elected again, we're out of here. And I was like, canada. So to me, Canada is you, Joni Mitchell and Leonard Cohen with. And there's a fire pit. And, I don't know, maybe moose, but more like marshmallows in my imagination.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, you've got Marshmallows here, for heaven's sakes.

[A.M. Holmes]

I know, but I think it's to.

[Margaret Atwood]

Move to Canada for the marshmallows.

[A.M. Holmes]

The three of you are up there doing that. But then I think about it, I feel like your horizon line is very, very large. And it is, you know, having made the notes for Handmaid's Tale at Radcliffe, writing it in Berlin, and I guess I'm curious about both that large horizon line and maybe it comes from Canada being so big, but also, is there a Canadian sensibility? Is there something.

[Margaret Atwood]

Let me explain it to you, Derek.

[A.M. Holmes]

I might sit on the floor at your feet, but then I wouldn't be able to get up.

[Margaret Atwood]

Canada is very large in area, and we have an unofficial national song called Canada's Really Big. It's by a group with a very Canadian name, which is the Arrogant Worms. So it's got the humility, the fake humility in there, plus the arrogance of thinking you're really big. So, yes, Canada is really big, but it has a lot fewer people in it than the United States has. It's always been multilingual from the get go. Not just French and English, but 52 spoken indigenous languages.

[A.M. Holmes]

Right.

[Margaret Atwood]

And many other languages of people that have come to Canada and still speak those languages. So it's like that. And when I wrote the Handmaid's Tale, there were three different national reactions to it. England, which said, jolly good yarn, Margaret. Ho, ho. Because they'd had their religious civil war in the 17th century, and whatever other stupid thing they were going to do. It wasn't that. We have just seen the stupid thing they did, but it wasn't that.

[A.M. Holmes]

Yeah.

[Margaret Atwood]

Canada, which nervously asks whatever horrible thing is going on, they nervously ask, can it happen here? Or more conditionally, could it happen here? And the United States, which split down the middle in 1985 with one app saying, don't be silly, Margaret, you silly person. We are a liberal democracy. We are the land of the true, the beautiful, the good, the free and the luminous, and we will never do any such bad thing. And the other half said, how long have we got? So, like that. And I think the reason the United States is like that is that you've only got two political parties, right? So tends to be more like this, right? We've got six.

[A.M. Holmes]

Because we have things to do, people.

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I think it's very hard to start another political party here because it's so entrenched. Anyway, I'm not counting you out by any means. By any means. I'm not counting you out. And that's why.

[A.M. Holmes]

Could you adopt me and could I just come up there? I'm willing to leave.

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay, just a minute now. Canada is not the land of the pure and the wonderful.

[A.M. Holmes]

I thought it was until recently.

[Margaret Atwood]

It isn't. Everything's relative, right? Yes. We've got our own bad behaviors and we've got our own bad history. Things that people did and all the rest of it, they're somewhat different from yours, but we've got them and every country does, you know, so nobody's.

[A.M. Holmes]

Nobody's perfect.

[Margaret Atwood]

Yeah. So that's the end of Some Like It Hot. Got news for you. I'm a man.

[A.M. Holmes]

Exactly. So is there a Canadian sensibility?

[Margaret Atwood]

Is there a. Oh, yeah.

[A.M. Holmes]

And how would you describe it?

[Margaret Atwood]

I would describe it at great length. I'll make it simple. South of you you've got Mexico. South of us we've got you.

[A.M. Holmes]

Right.

[Margaret Atwood]

Okay. North of you you've got us.

[A.M. Holmes]

Right.

[Margaret Atwood]

And north of us we've got Russia. So it's a different geopolitical situation. Indigenous people in Canada have a lot more land and a lot more power than they do here. There are historical reasons for that. So a while ago there was a contest in a magazine in Canada that said, complete the sentence as Canadian as. As in. As American as apple pie.

[A.M. Holmes]

Right.

[Margaret Atwood]

And the winner was as Canadian as possible. Under the circumstances.

[A.M. Holmes]

That'S pretty good.

[Margaret Atwood]

EL Doctorow, who is a pal, said, the Canadians didn't like my book. I said, the Canadians loved your book. He said, how can you tell? They do go in for understatements. So you just. You need the simultaneous translation machine. So American version. This is the greatest thing ever. It's better than sliced bread. It's practically next to God and just the most fantastic thing. And the Canadian equivalent is not bad at all.

[A.M. Holmes]

Right? Right. Certainly my students are all writing dystopian worlds and so on, and I can't decide now in a panic. Are they writing to run away from something or are they writing us towards something?

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, they're writing that kind of fiction because they're afraid to write social realism. But if you put them on another planet and they're green, blue and purple, they're going to feel safer about that. That's one of my theories. My other theory is that people are scared of our present day position that we find ourselves in. So dystopias are a kind of what if scenario. Like what if things get really quite a lot worse than they are now? How will we make our way through that you'll notice that none of them just has everybody die on page 98. There's always somebody left, because that's what stories are. There's always somebody left, even though there might not be, as it were. I don't mean to frighten you.

[A.M. Holmes]

You've talked a tiny bit about writing work that frightens you, and I've certainly written work that was frightening to me and clearly scared a lot of other people too. How do you navigate writing something that you find scary?

[Margaret Atwood]

Well, if it convinces me, I think I probably better keep going. It's when you fail to be convinced by your own inventions that you know that this probably should go in the drawer or possibly the waste paper basket. But if you find yourself sucked into it, that's probably a good sign. As far as it's being a convincing story, you have to first convince yourself. If you're not convinced by it, nobody else is going to be either.

[A.M. Holmes]

I think that's totally true. I always say if you don't believe that you can write it, you can't, because you have to believe all of it. Thank you so, so much. Not just for this, but for everything and all of it.

[Margaret Atwood]

And thank you. Thank you very much.

[A.M. Holmes]

Thank you.

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