Podcast Summary: Tell Me More: Kathryn Nicolai

Podcast: Selected Shorts (Symphony Space)
Episode: Tell Me More: Kathryn Nicolai
Release Date: September 15, 2025
Host: Meg Wolitzer
Guest: Kathryn Nicolai (creator and host of Nothing Much Happens podcast)

Overview

In the premiere episode of the "Tell Me More" spin-off, host Meg Wolitzer dives into the unique world of Kathryn Nicolai's ultra-popular bedtime podcast, Nothing Much Happens. The conversation explores how stories can gently lead listeners to sleep, uncovering Nicolai’s methods, creative background, and her experience with aphantasia (inability to visualize imagery). The episode is a warm, insightful look into the mechanics of calming fiction, the neuroscience of sleep, and the intentional pleasures baked into soothing storytelling.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origins and Intent of "Nothing Much Happens"

• Childhood Roots of Storytelling

  • Nicolai has used storytelling as a sleep aid since early childhood (03:50).
  • Growing up in 1980s Flint, Michigan, storytelling functioned as both comfort and escapism:
    • “I learned to build this little cozy nest through storytelling. And I've always kept it my whole life. And because of it, I can sleep, which is like a modern superpower.” — Nicolai (04:08)

• The Evolution of Her Stories

  • Early self-narrated tales were decidedly gothic—everything went wrong before resolving safely, a pattern Nicolai attributes to seeking a sense of relief and security (04:53–05:36).

Crafting Comfort: What Makes a Sleep Story?

• Conscious Use of Sensory and Nostalgic Elements

  • Nicolai picks settings and situations layered with comfort, nostalgia, and the expectation of safety:
    • “They're sort of indulgently layered with coziness and good feeling and an expectation of softness.” — Nicolai (07:39)
  • Sensory details help listeners become present and hence calm, ready for sleep.

• Purposeful Exclusion of Overly Specific Charactery

  • Characters are intentionally left gender-neutral and nameless, allowing listeners to easily insert themselves into the narrative (14:20).
    • “I want you to step into it and wrap it around your shoulders like a blanket... This is me. This is my story.” — Nicolai (14:24)

Neuroscience and Mechanics of Falling Asleep

• Task Positive Mode vs. Default Mode Network

  • Task-oriented activities (like reading or listening to structured stories) can suppress the mind’s chaotic default mode, reducing nighttime rumination:
    • “Just by giving your brain a really simple job to do... you slip back into task positive mode and that's where you can fall asleep.” — Nicolai (10:18–11:47)
  • Explains the difference between calming stories and traditional narratives with tension or excitement.

• Repetition and Intuitive Structure

  • Each story is read twice, with the second reading more slowly, providing permission for listeners to let go and relax—fostering a feeling of security (15:57–16:26).

The Role and Importance of Fiction

• Fiction vs. Nonfiction

  • Fiction provides imaginative possibilities, not just facts—a vessel for understanding and pleasure, not simply boredom as sleep podcasts sometimes suggest (09:21):
    • “For me, fiction is about not how things are, but how they might be.” — Wolitzer (09:21)

• Avoiding "Despair Porn"

  • Nicolai distances her work from narratives laced with tragedy for tragedy’s sake, seeking instead pleasure, nuance, and the full spectrum of human emotion and experience (12:42).

Aphantasia and Creative Process

• Living and Writing Without Mental Imagery

  • Nicolai’s full aphantasia means all her senses are “blind” in her mind—she cannot even hear things internally or create an internal monologue (19:04).
  • This drives her intense presence in the moment and may facilitate the vividness of her stories:
    • “Since this is the only way I've ever known my brain to be, I must not need that to create this because I don't have it and I do create it.” — Nicolai (19:16)
    • Experiences the world with fresh wonder every time, leading to stories that are sensory-rich on the page if not in the mind.

• Memory, Imagination, and Conceptualization

  • Rather than visualizing scenes, Nicolai “conceptualizes” story ideas—touching thoughts as if pressing piano keys (20:40).
  • Memory is less visual, more conceptual, leading her to heavily trust intuition in her writing (28:19).

Sleep Community and Success

• Unexpected Universality and Podcast Community
  • Though initially thought to be niche, Nothing Much Happens has reached a wide, global audience (17:00, 29:44).
    • “I thought I was doing something so niche...But, no, it's actually really universal.” — Nicolai (17:04)
  • Nicolai describes a camaraderie among sleep podcasters and mentions the delight in hearing from high-profile fans (30:20).

Techniques for Mindfulness and Sleep

• Cognitive Shuffling and Games

  • Wolitzer shares her strategy of “alphabet games” to facilitate sleep, something Nicolai identifies as “cognitive shuffling,” a useful distraction for the mind (26:43).

• The Absence of Boredom:

  • Nicolai does not get bored, attributing this to both her highly sensitive nature and 20 years of yoga/meditation practice (31:58).
  • Describes her content, calm, steady mind as more “sloth energy” in contrast to others’ hummingbird-like restlessness (32:46).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You deserve better. I just think you deserve more.” — Nicolai, on rejecting the notion of boring oneself to sleep in favor of pleasurable, engaging stories (08:47)
• “If your self care practices do not involve pleasure and fun and enjoyment, you’re missing a big chunk.” — Nicolai (08:55)
• “When you write, you’re all alone... but there is a world out there that will read it and will understand to some degree maybe the experience of writing it.” — Wolitzer (23:16)
• “I always say, like, I have to dream wilder. Cause my wildest dreams have come true several times.” — Nicolai (29:44)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:36 | Kathryn Nicolai joins the conversation | | 04:39 | Early use of storytelling for self-soothing | | 05:36 | Discussion of Patti Smith’s sleep story example | | 07:39 | What goes into making a Nothing Much Happens story | | 09:21 | The broader value and purpose of fiction | | 10:18 | Explanation of sleep neuroscience (task mode & default mode network) | | 12:42 | Discussion of reading tastes; rejection of “despair porn” in fiction | | 14:20 | How & why Nicolai’s characters are deliberately non-specific | | 15:57 | Importance of intuitive structure (reading the story twice, etc.) | | 17:04 | Surprised by the community and universality of her podcast | | 19:04 | Nicolai explains aphantasia and the effect on creativity | | 20:40 | How stories are conceptualized in her mind, not visualized | | 26:43 | Sleep strategies: cognitive shuffling/alphabet games | | 31:58 | Nicolai discusses boredom, mindfulness, and innate calm |

Conclusion

This episode offers an intimate, insightful glimpse into Kathryn Nicolai’s storymaking process and the science and soul behind her cozy podcasting empire. Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation for the art of calming fiction, the nuances of how and why it works, and the fascinating ways personal neurology can shape creative work. Nicolai’s emphasis on presence, pleasure, and gentle narrative provides both practical tips for insomnia sufferers and food for thought for writers and fiction lovers alike.