Charles Duhigg - Super Communicators

Summary

Summary of "Super Communicators" Episode Featuring Charles Duhigg on Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen

In the episode titled "Super Communicators", hosted by Chrissy Teigen, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Charles Duhigg delves into the art and science of effective communication. Drawing from his book, Super Communicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection, Duhigg explores the foundational skills that transform ordinary conversations into meaningful connections. This summary encapsulates the key discussions, insights, and practical tools presented during the insightful dialogue between Teigen and Duhigg.

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1. Introduction to Super Communicators

[00:03] Chrissy Teigen introduces the concept of super communicators—individuals who effortlessly create authentic connections through conversation. She sets the stage by highlighting the natural ease some people have in making others feel understood and valued.

Charles Duhigg expands on this by challenging the notion that effective communication is an innate trait. [02:07] He emphasizes that super communication is a skill set that can be learned and refined through practice, debunking the myth that it’s solely based on personality.

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2. Defining a Super Communicator

To establish a clear understanding, Teigen asks Duhigg to define what constitutes a super communicator. [02:51] Duhigg uses a relatable scenario involving Teigen’s friend, Nova, illustrating how super communicators employ specific skills to foster connection. He explains that these skills are universally applicable, enabling individuals to connect deeply with anyone, not just close friends or family.

Notable Quote:

"The key to connection is just a set of skills that almost all of us already know."
— Charles Duhigg, [04:51]

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3. The Four Rules for Meaningful Conversations

Duhigg outlines four essential rules that underpin meaningful interactions:

1. Matching the Conversation Type
   Recognize whether the conversation is practical, emotional, or social, and adapt accordingly. [06:53]

2. Understanding the Purpose
   Clarify what each participant seeks from the conversation to align objectives. [06:53]

3. Validating Emotions
   Especially in emotional discussions, acknowledging and validating feelings is crucial. [08:00] This involves techniques like "looping for understanding," where one reflects and confirms the other’s sentiments.

4. Acknowledging Social Identities
   Recognize and validate the multiple identities each person holds, which can influence the conversation’s context. [09:00]

Example Scenario: Duhigg describes an interaction where acknowledging someone's personal milestones can lead to deeper emotional sharing, enhancing the connection. [06:53]

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4. Neuroscience Behind Connection

Exploring the biological basis of communication, Duhigg introduces the concept of neural entrainment. [10:24] He explains how synchronized neural activity during conversations leads to a sense of connection and mutual understanding.

Notable Quote:

"Our thoughts will become more and more alike. This makes sense when you think about it, because if I tell you something about how I'm feeling, you'll actually experience that emotion a little bit."
— Charles Duhigg, [10:24]

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5. The Fast Friends Procedure

Duhigg shares the intriguing Fast Friends Procedure, a set of 36 questions designed to accelerate the formation of deep connections between strangers. [11:18] Originating from research by Arthur and Elaine Aron, this method emphasizes reciprocal sharing through back-and-forth questioning, significantly increasing the likelihood of bonding.

Key Insights:

• Reciprocity Enhances Connection: Mutual sharing fosters trust and intimacy. [13:45]
• Personal Stories Win Over Formal Interactions: Authenticity in responses leads to stronger bonds compared to structured or unilateral exchanges.

Notable Quote:

"There's something about reciprocity of emotion and reciprocity of authenticity that when you say something real and I recognize it and I say something real in response, that we feel close to each other."
— Charles Duhigg, [13:47]

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6. Active Listening and Deep Questions

The conversation transitions to active listening, where Duhigg underscores its importance in communication. [15:20] He differentiates between merely hearing and truly listening—engaging with the speaker's emotions and intentions.

Techniques Discussed:

• Follow-Up Questions: Demonstrates genuine interest and encourages deeper dialogue. [15:32]
• Deep Questions: Prompt others to share fundamental aspects of their worldview and experiences, fostering a profound understanding. [17:07]

Example Exercise: Teigen and Duhigg engage in a role-play to illustrate identifying conversation types and employing active listening strategies. [25:54]

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7. Common Mistakes Hindering Genuine Connection

Duhigg identifies prevalent communication pitfalls:

• Worrying About Perception: Focusing on how one is viewed rather than understanding the other person. [18:19]
• Aiming to Convince or Dominate: Shifting the conversation from mutual understanding to persuasion diminishes connection. [18:35]

Notable Quote:

"The goal of the conversation is not to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong."
— Charles Duhigg, [18:35]

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8. Practical Applications: Remote Work and Emotional Connection

Addressing modern communication challenges, Duhigg discusses how remote work and digital interactions impact emotional connections. [20:37] He likens adapting to digital communication platforms to learning new skills, much like mastering telephone conversations. By prioritizing meaningful exchanges—such as sharing personal updates before diving into business—individuals can maintain emotional connections despite physical distance.

Notable Quote:

"When we develop those little habits, then we can make any form of communication, including Zoom, into a real exchange."
— Charles Duhigg, [21:00]

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9. Toolkit: Exercises to Master the Art of Conversation

In the Toolkit segment, Duhigg provides practical exercises to enhance conversational skills:

• Identifying Conversation Types: Differentiating between practical, emotional, and social conversations to respond appropriately. [25:54]

  Exercise Example:

  • Duhigg shares a personal anecdote about taking his son to boarding school to illustrate shifting conversation types. [26:24]

• Looping for Understanding: Repeating back what the speaker has conveyed to confirm comprehension and demonstrate active listening. [32:02]

• Role-Playing Difficult Conversations: Practicing challenging dialogues, such as discussing sensitive topics with a child, to build confidence and empathy. [29:48]

Notable Quote:

"Looping for understanding has these three steps: Ask a deep question, repeat back what you heard, and ask if I got it right."
— Charles Duhigg, [32:02]

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10. Conclusion: Embracing Effective Communication

The episode concludes with Teigen expressing the transformative potential of Duhigg's insights on her conversational approach. [33:07] Duhigg's emphasis on empathy, active listening, and adaptable communication strategies offers listeners actionable tools to cultivate deeper, more meaningful connections in all facets of life.

Final Takeaway: Effective communication is not an innate gift but a skill set accessible to everyone. By understanding conversation types, practicing active listening, and embracing reciprocity, individuals can become super communicators, fostering authentic and lasting connections.

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References:

• Podcast Episode: "Super Communicators" by Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen
• Guest: Charles Duhigg, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist
• Book Discussed: Super Communicators: How to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection by Charles Duhigg

Transcript

[Chrissy Teigen]

You're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier and more productive life. Have you ever met someone who is exceptionally easy to talk to? Someone who simply, through good conversation, gets you to open up, making you feel smarter, more interesting, or just understood? These are all common traits of super communicators, people who are consistently able to create authentic connections with others just by listening and talking. They're the topic of a new book by my next guest, the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Charles Duhigg. In Super Communicators how to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection, Duhigg reveals that being a super communicator isn't about having a specific personality type, but rather about learning and applying certain techniques that anyone can use to enhance their communication skills. Duhigg contends that we can learn to connect in more meaningful ways if we can understand how conversations work. On today's episode, we'll explore specific habits of highly effective communicators, such as recognizing the type of conversation we're having, proving that we're truly listening, and asking deep questions that encourage others to share their values, beliefs and experiences. Whether you're looking to improve relationships at work, with family, or among friends, Duhigg's practical advice will equip you with the tools to become a super communicator and connect more profoundly with the world around you. Charles Duhigg welcome to Self Conscious. I'm really insecure about a lot of things. I'm 38 now and I lived most of my life feeling like I didn't belong in the spaces that I was in, or nervous to meet certain people that I felt were beyond my level. But I will say I have the gift of people really enjoying talking to me.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, my guess is that it's actually not a gift. It's a set of skills that you learned and you practiced without even realizing that you were learning and practicing them. And you had to, right? You had to. You had to learn how to make new friends because you're in a new school. You had to learn how to deal with parents who are probably stressed because you've just moved to a new place. One interesting thing is that when we talk to consistent super communicators and we ask them, have you always been good at communication? They'll say things like, no. You know, I had real trouble making Friends. In high school, I had to study how kids talk to each other. Or my parents got divorced, and I was the peacemaker between them. And it's that learning of skills that makes us a great communicator. And the nice thing is, anyone can learn those skills.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Let's define what a super communicator is.

[Charles Duhigg]

I'll ask you a question in order to demonstrate this. If you're having a really bad day, come home from work, you're in a bad mood, and you want to call someone, and you know that just talking to them is going to make you feel better, do you know who you would call? Yes. Yeah, who is it?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Um, my friend Nova, probably.

[Charles Duhigg]

So Nova is for you, a super communicator. And I'll bet that you're a super communicator. Right back to Nova. Now, what does Nova do? When you call Nova? What happens there that makes you feel better?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Um, she takes everything in the same way I do, where we take really tough subjects and make them funny.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Charles Duhigg]

She's proving to you that she's listening. Cause she's. She's taking and sort of changing what you're telling her to make palatable. Is there anything else she does?

[Chrissy Teigen]

She's also been through so much herself, and we're in the same world together, so she really understands really well.

[Charles Duhigg]

She's finding ways to connect with you. So one of the things that I think is happening here is that Nova has a set of skills that she uses when she's talking to you. And my guess is you have the same set of skills when you're talking to her. Now, what's interesting is we tend to think, oh, I have these skills because I'm talking to Chrissy, and we're so close to each other, and we know each other so well. But the truth of the matter is, Nova could talk to anyone the way that she talks to you. Right? And you could talk to anyone the way you talk to Nova. You could talk to a stranger on the bus. You could talk to your Uber driver. You could talk to your husband. You could talk to anyone. And what you would find is that sense of closeness that you have with Nova. You would feel, and they would feel back with almost anyone else. And that doesn't mean your relationships are as deep. It doesn't mean that they're as profound. But what we know, and the research has told us recently, is, is that we can connect with anyone. And the key to connection is just a set of skills that almost all of us already know. But we need to recognize them as skills. We need to practice them with people who aren't our best friends or aren't our spouses. And that when we do, we find a way to connect with almost anyone, because it's deep inside the neurology of our brain to be hardwired.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Do you think that same set of skills applies to everybody, or do you feel like you need to adjust yourself to speak to different types of people?

[Charles Duhigg]

The answer is yes to both of those, and I'll explain why. The way I got involved in doing this research was that I got into this bad pattern with my wife, which I imagine would be familiar to you and anyone who's listening, which is I would come home from work after a long day, I would start complaining to her about my day, and my wife, very reasonably, would, like, propose a solution. She'd say something like, why don't you take your boss out to lunch and you guys can get to know each other.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And that's not what I want to hear.

[Charles Duhigg]

That's exactly right. No, you should be on my side.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You should be outraged on my behalf.

[Charles Duhigg]

I would get more upset than she'd get upset because I was attacking her. This happens, it sounds like perhaps to you as well.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Absolutely.

[Charles Duhigg]

Every relationship, this happens. And so I went to these researchers and I said, look, I'm actually a professional communicator. I'm a journalist. Why do I keep making this mistake? And what they said was, well, what we've discovered is that we think of a discussion as being about one thing, right? We're talking about our kids or where to go on vacation. But actually, every discussion is made up of different kinds of conversations, and they all tend to fall into one of three buckets. There's these practical conversations where we're making plans or solving problems, but then there's also emotional conversations where I tell you what I'm feeling, and I don't want you to solve my feelings. I want you to empathize. And then there's social conversations, which is about how we relate to each other in society. And they said, what we've discovered is if you're having different conversations at the same moment, you cannot hear each other. And in psychology, this has actually become known as the matching principle, that successful communication requires having the same kind of conversation at the same moment. So to answer your question, if I'm talking to someone who's in a practical mindset, I do have to change a little bit. I have to match them or I have to invite them to match me. And we both have to get practical together, and then we might get emotional together, and then we might get social together, and then we go back to emotional. But what's important is that we're moving through these different kinds of conversations together.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Walk me through the four rules for a meaningful conversation.

[Charles Duhigg]

Okay, so the four rules for the. For a meaningful conversation. The first one is make sure that we're having the same kind of conversation. Right? If I bring up something emotional, you should acknowledge that. If you bring up something practical, I should acknowledge that. One of the ways I like to think about this is I was waiting for a meeting to start recently and I turned to the guy next to me and I said, oh, how was your weekend? And he said, oh, it was a great weekend. I went to my kids graduation and it was amazing. And the most natural thing to do would have been to say, oh, congratulations, that's so great. Okay, here's the agenda. Let's get down to business. But instead he said this thing that was kind of emotional. So I said, oh, that's amazing. Congratulations. What did that feel like watching your kid walk across the stage? And for the next 10 minutes, the guy told me all about the fact that his father hadn't graduated from college and it had been his dream that he went to college and decided, see his father's grandson sort of carry this along. So the first rule is listen for what kind of conversation is happening and just make the smallest invitation to match the other person. The second rule is to try and figure out why are we having this conversation. More specifically, what do you want out of this conversation? The third rule is that when it comes to emotional conversations, it's really, really important to validate emotions. And we do that by showing people that we're listening, by proving that we're listening. We've all been in this situation where, you know, we were at a party and someone asks us where we went on vacation and we tell them and we realize, like within 10 seconds, they just want to tell us where they went on vacation. Right? Tell us about the fancy yacht they rented. So they don't prove that they're listening to us. But when you and I are talking, and I think you're really naturally good at this, when we reflect back what we've heard when we actually, there's a technique for this called looping for understanding, where I ask a question, a deep question, I repeat back what I heard you say, and then I ask you if I got it right. And this has been shown in conflicts to resolve the conflict, usually by 80 to 90%. Because even if we disagree with each other, if you believe that I'm listening to you, and I believe, yeah, you feel heard. And then the final rule is to figure out if social identities, if our identity matters to this conversation, right? The fact that you are a woman and a mom and that you live in Los Angeles and you're a celebrity. And at the same time, I'm sure that there's downsides of celebrity, and you can't leave the house as easily as I can leave my house. Do those social identities influence this context, conversation? Do they have a role to play? And if they do, and they might not. Right. It might just be two people kind of just chewing the fat with each other. But if they do, then acknowledging and validating those identities is important. Because the truth is you're not just one identity. You're dozens of identities, and I'm dozens of identities. And if I said, well, as a woman, tell me what you think about this, you would be completely within your rights to feel like you're being backed into a corner and to say, I'm not just a woman. I'm a businesswoman. I'm a mom. I'm a professional. And so the more that we bring all of those identities into the conversation and we say we all contain multitudes, the richer we'll be able to know each other. So those are the four rules.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Why does it feel good when we connect and bad when we don't?

[Charles Duhigg]

So we're living through this golden age of understanding communication. Because of advances in neural imaging and data collection, when we're having a conversation, we feel connected. Our heart rates start to match each other. Our breath patterns start to match each other. Your eyes and my eyes are dilating at the same rate, but even more. The neural activity inside your head is matching the neural activity inside my head. And the more we talk and the better we understand each other, the more our thoughts will become more and more alike. And this makes sense when you think about it, because if I tell you something about how I'm feeling, you'll actually experience that emotion a little bit. Right. Or if I tell you about an idea, you'll experience that idea. So it makes sense that our thoughts would become similar. But within neuroscience, this is known as neural entrainment. And we have evolved to feel fantastic when we connect with another person through conversation.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What's the Fast Friends procedure?

[Charles Duhigg]

Thank you for asking about this. This is one of my favorite parts of the book. So in the late 1980s, early 90s, this couple named Arthur and Elaine Aaron at CUNY Stony Brook, decided that they wanted to do an experiment. What they wanted to try and figure out was, is there a technique that they could develop that would make any two strangers into friends? And so they tried all kinds of things. They had people tell stories to each other. They had people build puzzles together. Sometimes they had people just tap their fingers together to see what that. Or listen to music together. And what they found is that none of those techniques worked. Nothing. Some people became friends, Some people didn't become. It was just the same thing that you would find in any population. Then they come up with this new way of doing it. They come up with 36 questions, and people, Strangers, would walk in. They'd sit down in this room. They would hand each of them a list of questions. They say, okay, go back and forth, ask each question and answer it. And then the other person will ask and answer it. And they go through all 36 questions. Takes 45 minutes. Then the experiment's over. And they say, thanks so much. Really nice to. Thanks for participating. And everyone thinks the experiment's done, but the experiment is actually just beginning. Because what they do is they wait seven weeks, and then they contact everyone who had been in that room, and they ask them, just out of curiosity, did you ever look up that person you did this thing with? Like, did you guys ever talk to each other again? And people would say things like, yeah, you know, I knew that his name was John S. But I didn't catch his last name. So I went through the white pages, and I called every single John S. In the white pages until I found him. Or other people would say, yeah, I would walk up and down the halls of dorms looking for that guy. And it took me about three or four, four months. But eventually I found, you know, walking up and down the halls. 70% of people who had participated in that experiment found each other afterwards. And they went and they got a beer together or they saw a movie together. One guy said, you know, I got together with my partner, and we had a beer. And then a couple weeks later, we actually went. We saw a movie together. And when they got married 12 months later, they invited everyone in the lab to come to the wedding. So these 36 questions have become known as the fast friends procedure. And sometimes you can find them online, the 36 questions that lead to love. Anyone can look it up. And they're really fun to go back and forth. They're really fun. I do it with my kids. I do it with my wife. But what's interesting is they did the experiment again, and instead of having people go back and forth, this time, they gave them the list of questions and they said, okay, one person answer all 36, then the other person answer all 36.

[Chrissy Teigen]

When it wasn't a conversation, it wasn't.

[Charles Duhigg]

A back and forth. Right? Yeah, it didn't work at all. People said it was weird. People said they felt awkward. They didn't like it. And what we've learned is that there's something about reciprocity. There's something about reciprocity of emotion and reciprocity of authenticity that when you say something real and I recognize it and I say something real in response, that we feel close to each other. And so this is something that we can use. There's a guy named Nick Epley who's at the University of Chicago. He does this on a bus. He'll get on a bus, and within three questions, he wants to talk about someone's hopes and dreams and usually only takes them two questions. Because he'll say, like, what do you do for a living? And they'll say, I'm an accountant. And he'll say, oh, did you always want to be an accountant? Was that your dream when you were a kid? And they say, no, who wants to be an accountant when you're a kid? I want him to be an astronaut. And then they talk about why he's not an astronaut and why they became an accountant. If we reciprocate, if we tell stories about ourselves, then it gives us a chance to really get to know each other and we become friends.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Hey, it's Chrissy. Feeling today's conversation. Dig deeper with today's guest and hear more from all our groundbreaking guests on Audible. From best sellers and new releases to podcasts and Audible originals, discover the next step on your journey. For a limited time, new customers can go to audible.com chrissy on audible to get your first three months for only 99 cents a month. So let's discuss active listening. What are some of the signs that we are really listening to somebody?

[Charles Duhigg]

Well, let me ask you. So when you're talking to your husband, are there times that he sort of tunes out a little bit that he's.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yes, absolutely.

[Charles Duhigg]

And are there times when he's really listening, like he's paying attention?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yes.

[Charles Duhigg]

So what's the difference? How do you know? How do you know the difference?

[Chrissy Teigen]

If there are other external factors in the room, if he acknowledges what I'm saying back to me, there's usually a long pause and then I'm pretty positive of the fact he didn't hear me. But I will say in his defense, this is way more me than him or someone that's like looking at you, but they're kind of looking over your shoulder. To me, that's like the big telltale sign is, oh, I'm not connecting with this person. And they are just here to talk at me or ask things on the basis of I asked some questions today, we connected, you know. But yeah, John is a very good listener. But like any man, doesn't juggle two things well at once. So if there's anything else happening in the world or happening around him, it's not fully absorbing.

[Charles Duhigg]

And my guess is that if I was to watch you guys, that when he is listening, he leans into you a little bit, he smiles at you a little bit more, he makes much more eye contact, he asks follow up questions. And follow up questions are really, really important. Because when you ask a follow up question, two things are happening. Number one is I'm showing you that I'm interested in you. I'm showing you that I'm paying attention and listening. But number two, I am asking you for permission to acknowledge that I'm listening. When we ask that permission, it makes the other person feel really, really safe.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay, so you argue that we should ask more deep questions. How come.

[Charles Duhigg]

When we ask deep questions, what we're really asking people is tell me how you see the world. Let me ask you, you grew up moving around a lot. How did that shape you? How are you a different person because of that?

[Chrissy Teigen]

In a positive way? It made me very adaptable to different scenarios, different environments, different situations, different types of people in a bad way. It means that I'm very able to cut people off without a second thought.

[Charles Duhigg]

So it's interesting because you just told me so much about who you are, right? You told me that you're someone who values adaptability, you value the ability to deal with problems, and that you're someone who isn't necessarily nostalgic. When something isn't working for you, when something isn't helping you, that you can let it go. And those are things that would be hard for me to learn about you except by asking you a deep question. How do you make sense of your past? How do you make sense of the world? These deep questions, what they're really doing is they're inviting the other person to tell us something essential about who they are.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What are some common mistakes people make in conversations that really hinder genuine connection?

[Charles Duhigg]

The biggest mistake that we make is worrying too much. About how we want to come across. Right. So if you think about it like, what's the goal of a conversation? The goal of a conversation is not to convince you that I'm right and you're wrong, because I'm not going to do that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Some people have that goal.

[Charles Duhigg]

Some people have that goal, but it's a bad goal because you're never going to achieve that goal. Some people, their goal is, I want to convince you that I'm smart, or I want to convince you that you should like me, I want to convince you that you don't see the world correctly and you should agree with me. Those are all goals that it's almost impossible to achieve. The right goal for conversation is to say, I want to understand how you see the world, and I want to speak in such a way that you understand how I see the world. And as long as we achieve that, we have been successful.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Can you share any surprising findings from your research on super communicators?

[Charles Duhigg]

So one of my favorite findings is when we need to have a hard conversation. Oftentimes just acknowledging the hard conversation makes it easier.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yes. Right, Absolutely.

[Charles Duhigg]

So if we need to talk about a topic that's controversial, race or politics or religion, if you need to go to John and you need to say, like, here's something you're doing wrong, there's two things we can do at the start of that conversation that's going to make it easier. The first thing is just to say, I need to talk to you about something. And this is gonna be an awkward conversation. I just wanna acknowledge that at the front. And by the way, I might say the wrong thing. Cause sometimes in the gap between my brain and my lips, things get screwed up. And so I hope you'll forgive me if I say the wrong thing. And I want you to know if you say the wrong thing, I will forgive you. If we do that, the conversation almost always goes better. And there's been all these studies that have been done looking at conversations about race, particularly when one person is white and the other is black or people are of different races and having conversations about racism and how we experience racism. And what we found is that even when it's friends talking to each other about race, if they start the conversation this way just by saying, this is going to be awkward, and that's okay, I might say the wrong thing, and so might you. I think we should forgive each other. The conversation goes so much better.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Has remote work and zoom made it challenging to connect emotionally?

[Charles Duhigg]

Not if you make it a priority. Right so the telephone example is a pretty good example. There was a time when people could not connect emotionally on the phone. What happened by the time you and I were in middle school, when we have these incredibly important conversations on the phone and connect with folks, it's that we had gotten used to the phone as a method of communication, and we had learned some skills. Actually, none of us recognize we're doing this, but when. When you're talking on the telephone, you tend to over enunciate by about 20%. You'll put about a third more emotion into your voice because you know the other person can't see you. So to show them what you're feeling, you have to put it into your voice. We don't even realize that we're doing this, but we do it automatically. We've learned to do it. Now, your kids are too young for this, but because I have teenagers, anyone with teenagers, if you dare ask your teenager to show you their text messages, and what you'll see is that some of them are strings of emojis. Those are kids having emotional conversations with each other over text, Right? They use emojis completely differently than how I use emojis. I say, like, do you want a steak for dinner? And then I put a little picture of a steak. And my kids are like, that's not how you use an emoji. What you do is you use an emoji to show an emotion. Our kids are learning how to have these digital conversations, and we can learn it, too. So when it comes to zoom, oftentimes because it's zoom, and because we get down to business right away, right? Instead of doing that thing that we would do if we were all sitting together in a room, which is to say, hey, before we start the meeting, let's just go around and say, what's going on in your life, how things are, where are you calling in from today? But when we develop those little habits, then we can make any form of communication, including zoom, including remote work, including sending texts of little pictures. We can make that into a, like.

[Chrissy Teigen]

We'Re doing a job right now again, but still, like, it'd be so weird to just jump into it without having had a small conversation.

[Charles Duhigg]

Absolutely.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Right before.

[Charles Duhigg]

And yet if we were doing it over zoom, that might be more of our instinct, right? Like, oh, we've got an hour. Let's get down to business.

[Chrissy Teigen]

No, I don't have the same conversation with somebody if I didn't at least have a few sentences with them before I think.

[Charles Duhigg]

And I think, you know, that. And you think about that. And so you do that. And the more that we recognize that, the more that we allow ourselves to do that, regardless of the form of communication, the more we actually have a real exchange.

[Chrissy Teigen]

So I heard you have interviews with people from the CIA. Can you tell me what those conversations were like?

[Charles Duhigg]

So there's a story in the book about this guy, Jim Lawlor, who, when he was about 30 years old, he finally gets a job with the CIA, and they send him over to Europe to recruit spies. And he's so pumped up for this. He's so excited. And he is the worst recruiter in history. He's just terrible. He told me that he would go to parties and he would, like, start chatting with someone, and they'd say, like, by the way, I know that you're a. You're CIA. I know you're trying to recruit me. If you don't stop right now, I'm going to tell the authorities and you're going to get deported. He was just so bad at it. He was just terrible. It was obvious what he was trying to do. So he meets this woman named Yasmin, and she works for the Foreign Ministry in her home government, which is in the Middle East. And so he starts taking her out to lunch and dinner and gets to know her a little bit. Then eventually he says, you know, I work for the CIA. Would you consider telling us about the work that you do back home? And she starts crying, and she's terrified, and she says, no, I absolutely can't do this. This is suicidal. So Lawler goes to his boss and he says, look, I was trying to recruit this woman that I told you about, but I don't think it's gonna happen. And his boss says, look, I already told Washington, D.C. you recruited her. If you don't close the deal, you're gonna get fired. So Jim Lawler calls her up and he says, will you have dinner with me? Just one last dinner? And she says, yes. And they go to dinner, and she's in a terrible mood. She's about to fly home to this Middle Eastern country. She's just glum and disappointed in herself. And he tries to cheer her up. He starts telling her stories about, like, remember when we went sightseeing here? And here's a funny story about my neighbor, and none of it works. And so after a while, he just thinks to himself, this isn't gonna happen. I give up. I'm gonna get fired by the CIA. And he just starts talking to her about what he's feeling that he understands how she feels going home, because he's so disappointed in himself. This is all he ever wanted to do. And she listens. And then she starts crying. And he reaches over and he says, oh, I'm sorry. I did not mean to make you cry. She says, no, no, I hear what you're saying now. I can do this. I can help you. She goes on to be the best asset in the Middle east for the next 20 years. But the only reason she was able to trust Jim Lawler, the only reason she was able to hear what he was saying, was because instead of trying to cheer her up, he matched her. He said, you're feeling glum, and I'm feeling glum. They had a real moment of connection. And that's true for all of us. Right?

[Chrissy Teigen]

And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Charles Duhigg will help us become super communicators with exercises designed to master the art of conversation.

[Charles Duhigg]

When we're having a discussion, we're actually having multiple different kinds of conversations. There's a big bucket of practical conversations. We're making plans together. We're solving problems. There's emotional conversations about how we feel, and then there's social conversations about how we relate to each other and how we relate to society. And it's important to try and figure out what kind of conversation is happening. So I'm gonna say some stuff, and you tell me what you hear. Not necessarily the topic I'm speaking about, but whether it's a social conversation or a practical conversation or emotional conversation.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay.

[Charles Duhigg]

So I took my kid to school recently. One of my sons goes to boarding school, and it was totally exhausting, but kind of fun to watch him. Like, he was nervous. I dropped him off, and I had to drive back right away. I don't know. To see him in this new place and to be so excited and ready for this was really. Yeah, okay. Yeah, exactly. Because it's.

[Chrissy Teigen]

They went from practical to social.

[Charles Duhigg]

You're exactly right. I was saying a bunch of practical things. But what you heard is, what I was really talking about is my relationship with my son, what it's like to be a father. That's exactly right.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What was the last one? Sorry. Social.

[Charles Duhigg]

Practical and emotional.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Emotional.

[Charles Duhigg]

So now I'm gonna ask you questions.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, I guess. Could that be emotional then, too?

[Charles Duhigg]

It could have been. It could be, yeah. It could be either of them, and it doesn't. What matters is not getting it exactly right. What matters is listening for it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Because, yeah, like, he clearly doesn't want to hear. Oh, to get your kid to camp every day, you should leave at 6 o'clock in the morning.

[Charles Duhigg]

Did you take the 405 or did you take the 10? Where did you fly into that? That would be a practical conversation, right?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yes.

[Charles Duhigg]

But what you heard is that there was something deeper there. There was something more meaningful. So we'll flip now and I'll do the same thing. So tell me the best and worst thing that happened yesterday.

[Chrissy Teigen]

The best thing I did, I taught my daughter actually to make her dad's favorite meal. She could have gone to the Santa Monica Pier, which is of course filled with rides and everything, but she wanted to stay home and learn how to make her daddy's favorite meal. So we did that together. And the worst thing. What was we made all that dinner and then John wasn't coming home yesterday.

[Charles Duhigg]

Okay, so what I hear, and tell me if I'm getting this right, I hear that the best thing was actually a little bit emotional, that you had this special time with your daughter. And that actually there was this thing where it might have been even social too, where you guys were sharing something together. And that sharing felt really good. And so if I was to ask you more questions about that, I would ask you about what it felt like to spend that time with your daughter. When you don't get time with your daughter, how do you. How do you connect with her? If you're traveling or it's just you're.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Busy, I'd say I've been gone all week, so it was really nice to connect.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And then.

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What were you doing all that week? There's so many different.

[Charles Duhigg]

There's so many different. And then when you mentioned the worst thing that, that you found out your husband wasn't coming home for dinner, that actually sounds to me like a practical conversation. You're probably a little annoyed about it, but what you're really annoyed about is the practicalities. How do we figure out how to have dinner together? Because we're both busy people and those are both totally legitimate conversations. Every kind of conversation. The social, the practical, the emotional, they are all equally legitimate and they are all equally interesting and they're all equally.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Dynamic, and they all lead to so many different avenues. It's like tributaries in it.

[Charles Duhigg]

And in this conversation, we've had a practical conversation, we've had a social conversation, we've had emotional. We've been through all of them together. And what's important is that togetherness. Right. As long as you and I are having the same kind of conversation at the same moment. Then we get in sync, we achieve this neural entrainment. We're on the same wavelength, and then we move from topic to topic and we feel like we're really connecting. So when we have to have a hard conversation, there's this technique, looping for understanding. And they make hard conversations much easier. In psychology, these are known as conflict conversations because we're talking about something where we might disagree with each other or there might be some tension, and so we can practice a little bit. What's a conflict conversation? You have a hard conversation.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Really? Anything, honestly. I hate conflict. I hate confrontation.

[Charles Duhigg]

Can you think of one you've had recently where your stomach was a little bit knots before you went into the conversation?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, I guess. Talking to my son, who is 6, about having type 1 diabetes.

[Charles Duhigg]

So let's try something. I'll be you and you be Miles. Okay, so. So, Miles, me and dad have something to tell you about. We found out that you have this thing called diabetes. And that doesn't mean that you're not special and you're not as smart and doesn't mean that there's. You can do anything you want in your life, but it means that your body processes foods a little bit differently, and we're gonna have to accommodate that, and we're gonna learn to accommodate that together.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That's really the exact conversation we had.

[Charles Duhigg]

Okay, so what did Miles. How did Miles respond? You be Miles?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Can I still play sports?

[Charles Duhigg]

Yeah, absolutely. You can play sports. And what I hear you saying is that you're worried that this might change the things that you love to do. Am I hearing you right? Yeah, absolutely. You can play sports. And you know what? Not just sports. You can be anyone you want to be. This does not stop. Or. I was gonna say preclude, but maybe with a six year old, I wouldn't say that. But this doesn't block any avenues of life that you can do anything. It's just something the same way that some kids comb their hair right to left or left to right. You're gonna learn how to measure your blood sugar, but it won't do anything to stop you from being everything you want to be in life.

[Chrissy Teigen]

All the examples help too.

[Charles Duhigg]

So I think in a hard conversation, when I ask you what I hear you saying, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to prove to you. Not only am I listening to you, I'm processing what you said. I want to prove to you that I'm not Just hearing, I'm listening. And the reason why that feels really powerful is because oftentimes we need other people to help us listen to ourselves. When someone says, what I hear you saying is, you're not just worried about this, you're worried about that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I don't think I've ever said those words out loud. What I hear you saying is, it feels wonderful. It does.

[Charles Duhigg]

It feels like someone else is on our side who's trying to help us discover something about ourselves. And then that last question, am I getting that right? When I ask you, am I getting that right, one of two things can happen. The other person might say, no, I don't think you understood me at all. And that's helpful to know. But if they say, yeah, no, I think you got that right. What really just happened is I asked you for permission to acknowledge that I was listening, and you gave me that permission. And when you know that I'm listening to you, you become more likely to listen to me. When Miles hears you say, I understand what you're concerned about. I'm taking it seriously. Whatever you say next, he's going to hear so much better. And so that. It's called looping for understanding. It has these three steps. Ask a question, a deep question. Repeat back what you heard them. Say in your own words. Show them not only were you listening, but you've been processing, thinking. And then step number three, just ask, did I get it right?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I can't go into any conversation the same way anymore. Like, this is incredible, really. Charles Duhigg, I want to thank you so much for joining me on Self Conscious. Charles Duhigg's Super Communicators, how to Unlock the Secret Language of Connection is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible and Huntley Productions, hosted by Chrissy Teigen, Executive Producer for Huntley Productions. Chrissy Teigen, Executive Producer for Audible Stacy Creamer Recorded and engineered by Alex Skye Mixed and mastered by Jeremiah Zimmerman Edited by Lisa Orkin Head of Creative Development at Audible, Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals LLC. Sound Recording Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals LL.