Emily Nagoski - Come Together

Summary

Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen: Episode Summary Featuring Emily Nagoski – "Come Together"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen
• Host: Chrissy Teigen
• Guest: Emily Nagoski
• Episode Title: Emily Nagoski - Come Together
• Release Date: May 29, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Episode

In this enlightening episode of Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, host Chrissy Teigen engages in a profound conversation with Emily Nagoski, author of the bestselling book Come as You Are: The Science and Art of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections. The discussion delves into the intricacies of maintaining intimacy and sexual satisfaction in long-term relationships.

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2. The Evolution of Intimacy in Long-Term Relationships

Chrissy opens the conversation by addressing a common issue faced by many couples: the natural decline of the initial fiery spark in relationships. She cites Emily's work, emphasizing that the quality of sexual experiences is more crucial than the frequency or intensity traditionally associated with a healthy sex life.

Emily Nagoski [03:00]: "The goal isn't to reignite the spark, but to create a new kind of intimacy that is authentic, pleasurable and uniquely yours."

This sets the stage for exploring how couples can navigate the twists and turns of personal growth to sustain a meaningful connection.

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3. Emily Nagoski’s Personal Journey

Emily shares her personal struggles while writing her book, illustrating the challenges of balancing professional expertise with personal experience. She candidly discusses how the pressures of authoring a guide on enhancing sexual intimacy ironically led to a decline in her own desire.

Emily Nagoski [03:15]: "It is not [writing about sex] super sexy. I was very stressed out. I lost all interest in actually having sex."

This vulnerability highlights the authentic nature of her insights and the authenticity she brings to her work.

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4. Understanding Responsive vs. Spontaneous Desire

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the distinction between spontaneous desire—which emerges out of the blue—as illustrated by Erica Moen's depiction of a "lightning bolt to the genitals" ([03:37] Chrissy) and responsive desire, which arises in response to sexual activity and intimacy.

Emily Nagoski [04:00]: "Responsive desire emerges in response to pleasure. So where spontaneous desire emerges in anticipation of pleasure, responsive desire emerges in response to pleasure."

She explains how recognizing and embracing responsive desire can lead to more satisfying and connected sexual experiences, even amidst the stresses of daily life.

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5. Misconceptions About Desire Differentials

Emily challenges the common misconception that desire differentials—where one partner desires sex more frequently than the other—are the primary issue in sexual dissatisfaction. Through her research, she discovered that often, the problem lies not in the desire itself but in the lack of pleasure derived from sexual encounters.

Emily Nagoski [07:16]: "The number one reason why couples seek sex therapy is because of a desire differential. But when they go in, it turns out at least one of the partners doesn't like the sex."

This revelation shifts the focus from quantity to the quality and mutual enjoyment of sexual interactions.

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6. Secrets of Happy Sex Lives

Emily outlines three key characteristics that distinguish couples with fulfilling sexual relationships:

1. Strong Friendship, Trust, and Admiration:

   • Emily Nagoski [11:37]: "They're really good friends who trust and admire each other. It matters more that you like each other than that you're horny for each other."

2. Prioritizing Sexual Intimacy:

   • Emily Nagoski [12:32]: "If it's not in our calendar, it does not happen. But if we're willing to block off time and space just to do this, that's hot. That's romantic."

3. Authentic and Personalized Sexual Scripts:

   • Emily Nagoski [13:36]: "They decide to get really deep and curious about who they truly are as a sexual person and who their partner really is."

These principles emphasize the importance of mutual respect, intentionality, and authenticity in sustaining a healthy sexual connection.

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7. Challenging Patriarchal Scripts in Sexual Relationships

The conversation delves into how patriarchal norms and societal expectations can hinder authentic sexual connections. Chrissy reflects on her own experiences with these pressures, revealing how they can lead to unhealthy sexual behaviors driven by obligation rather than genuine desire.

Emily Nagoski [20:29]: "The masculine script and the feminine script is... 'my job is to be as desirable as possible and for him to want me so much he can't help himself.'"

They discuss strategies to break free from these restrictive norms, fostering a more equal and enjoyable sexual dynamic.

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8. Practical Exercises for Enhancing Sexual Intimacy

Emily introduces two actionable exercises designed to help individuals and couples improve their sexual relationships:

1. The Mirror Exercise [27:04]:

   • Instructions:

     • Stand in front of a mirror close to naked.
     • Look at yourself and write down everything you like about your appearance and self.
     • Repeat daily for a month to build a positive self-image and reduce self-criticism.

   • Emily Nagoski [27:04]: "What's going to happen is you're going to start seeing through the noise of what everybody has told you... you're going to start seeing for real what a frickin miracle your body actually is."

2. The Four Questions [29:00]:

   • Instructions:

     • Draw a grid with four boxes.
     • Fill in:
       1. What do I want when I want sex?
       2. What do I not want when I don't want sex?
       3. What do I like when I like sex?
       4. What do I not like when I don't like sex?
     • Discuss answers with your partner to identify patterns and improve communication.

   • Emily Nagoski [29:22]: "When people talk about what they don't like, the single most common answer is feeling a sense of obligation."

These exercises aim to foster self-awareness and open communication, essential components for a fulfilling sexual relationship.

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9. Personal Reflections and Conclusion

Throughout the episode, both Chrissy and Emily share personal anecdotes that underscore the complexities of maintaining intimacy. Chrissy reflects on past behaviors driven by insecurity and societal expectations, while Emily provides compassionate insights into overcoming these challenges.

Emily Nagoski [18:14]: "You're a person worth being already. I know it feels tantalizingly, painfully close and that it's so it's going to be harder for you to let go of than it would for what I'm going to call an ordinary person."

Their exchange culminates in a message of self-acceptance and mutual understanding, encouraging listeners to prioritize pleasure and authentic connection over societal pressures and misconceptions about desire.

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Key Takeaways

• Quality Over Quantity: Focusing on the enjoyment and satisfaction derived from sexual encounters is more important than the frequency of such interactions.

• Responsive Desire: Understanding that desire can be responsive and not just spontaneous allows for a more flexible and fulfilling approach to intimacy.

• Strong Friendship: Building a foundation of trust and admiration with your partner enhances sexual connection.

• Breaking Free from Norms: Challenging patriarchal and societal scripts enables more authentic and pleasurable sexual relationships.

• Practical Tools: Exercises like the Mirror Exercise and the Four Questions can significantly improve self-awareness and communication in relationships.

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Conclusion

This episode of Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen offers a deep dive into the science and art of sustaining sexual intimacy in long-term relationships. Through Emily Nagoski's expertise and personal insights, listeners gain valuable tools and perspectives to enhance their own relationships, fostering healthier, happier, and more productive lives.

Transcript

[Chrissy Teigen]

You're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier and more productive life. While many couples start their relationships with a fiery spark, it's only natural for that intensity to fade over time. Life's pressures, changing bodies, and evolving emotional landscapes can all contribute to the ebb and flow of intimacy, leaving many couples questioning their connection. Yet, as Emily Nagoski reveals in her best selling Come the Science and Art of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections, the problem isn't necessarily about how much sex you're having or even how much you want it. Instead, it's about how much you enjoy the sex you are having. Nagoski challenges the dominant narrative, equating a healthy sex life with frequent, spontaneous and adventurous sex. Drawing from her extensive research and personal experiences, she emphasizes that the real key to sustaining intimacy in long term relationships is pleasure. It's not about checking off boxes or adhering to societal expectations. It's about ensuring that the sex you do have, however infrequent or unconventional, is deeply satisfying and connects you with your partner. Nagoski's message is clear. The goal isn't to reignite the spark, but to create a new kind of intimacy that is authentic, pleasurable and uniquely yours. Today we'll explore how Nagoski Selfsky's insight can help couples navigate the complexities of long term intimacy. From understanding the emotional and psychological factors that impact sexual desire to reframing how we think about sexual satisfaction, this discussion will offer practical advice for anyone looking to strengthen their connection with their partner. Emily Nagoski welcome to Self Conscious. Emily Nagoski thank you for being here. I think sex is such a weird topic and for me it's always not really none of my life is private but for some reason sex and pooping just untalked about with me. But I'm very open with all my girlfriends and stuff about it, but I don't think I've ever publicly really talked.

[Emily Nagoski]

Sex before and you get to choose what you disclose and what you disclose.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I'll disclose too much as usual. That's my choice to always go too far.

[Emily Nagoski]

Okay. It's actually part of my training as a sex educator is to think concretely and specifically over and over again about what my boundaries are around self disclosure, which for this book because it's based on how my own sex life went to hell I was like, am I gonna tell my own story? Cause I'm supposed to be this expert who knows how to do all the things. But I told it to my literary agent. She's. You have to write that Come as yous is my first book. I started writing it just a few months after I got married. And you might think that thinking and writing and talking and reading about sex all the time could be super sexy.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

It is not. I was very stressed out. I don't know if this is your experience with writing books, but I was just so stressed and exhausted.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

That I lost all interest in actually having sex.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. And it's not fun anymore if it's.

[Emily Nagoski]

A job with my newlywed husband. So I finished writing the book, and things got better.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

Then I went on book tour, and it got way worse.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Really.

[Emily Nagoski]

So I tried following my own advice. I had a whole book of advice, so I tried following it. And one of the major pieces of advice is this thing called responsive desire. So where most of us grew up learning about sexual desire as being spontaneous, where you feel it out of the blue, just this. Erica Moen is the cartoonist who illustrated Come as you Are, and she draws spontaneous desire as a lightning bolt to the genitals.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Kaboom.

[Emily Nagoski]

You're just like. And that was largely my experience of sexual desire. And then I got really stressed out from book tour, and I thought, oh, no, I have responsive desire now. So spontaneous desire is 100% normal, and so is responsive desire. So where spontaneous desire emerges in anticipation of pleasure, responsive desire emerges in response to pleasure. So the advice is.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, that sounds about right for me too.

[Emily Nagoski]

Then you put your body in the bed.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

You let your skin touch your partner's skin, and your brain goes, oh, yeah, I like this. I like this person. This was a great idea. So I put my body in the bed, I let my skin touch my partner's skin, and I cried and fell asleep. And that's when I was like, I need more advice than I gave in my own book. So I did.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Well, everybody's so different, though, and it's so dynamic and so complex, and it.

[Emily Nagoski]

Changes so much over time.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, I'm glad you're saying that.

[Emily Nagoski]

Yes.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Because I was a spontaneous. I was young, wild, and free. Bathrooms, changing rooms, anywhere, cars, vans, whatever. Didn't matter. I.

[Emily Nagoski]

Positions, different things. Yeah, whatever. Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

All the time. Hot and horny, ready to go.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

And then you get so stressed out by writing a book about helping people have great sex that you're like, I got nothing. For you. And in fact, I'm gonna cry on your hairy chest. And then it's still intimacy though it is for me. I wanted to fix this problem. I missed the part of myself that accessed the erotic. So I did what any good sex nerd does. I went to Google Scholar, which is the specific corner of Google that just shows you peer reviewed science. And that's when I knew I needed more help.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What were the tiers for that? It was just so difficult or you were mad at yourself.

[Emily Nagoski]

What were the tears are? It turns out that was the question that I had to ask. But of course that's not the question I asked. I asked Google, yeah, how do couples sustain a strong sexual connection over the long term? And Google Scholar told me what I found there was totally different from everything that we see in the mainstream conversation about sex and long term relationships. This is 2014 and there's this big conversation about distance. We need distance in a relationship because you in desire, you need a bridge to cross. Distance is the key to keeping the spark alive. And then there's other people saying, no intimacy. Closeness is the key to keeping the spark alive. And what I found out, when you look at the research on people who self identify as having extraordinary sex lives, who have magnificent sex, they do not talk about spark, they don't talk about desire. Desire barely scrapes into the top 10 characteristics of great sex. That was the lesson for me, that it wasn't about desire. So there's really two kinds of ways a couple can struggle with sex. One is the way I was struggling, which I'll talk about in a second. And the other way is, suppose this couple goes into sex therapy and partner A says, I was really into it and I'm sorry, this hurts my partner's feelings. But these days, if we never had sex again, I'd be totally fine with that. And this is not rare.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I've never thought that before.

[Emily Nagoski]

That's a good sign.

[Chrissy Teigen]

No, I have. I totally have.

[Emily Nagoski]

So have I. But if you get a great therapist like Peggy Kleinplatz, who's the primary researcher in the Optimal Sexual Experiences research, she has interviewed dozens of people of all ages who self identify as having extraordinary sex. When a couple comes in and says, I'm sorry, it hurts my partner's feelings, but I'd be fine if we never had sex again, she says, okay, so tell me about the sex you don't want. What they usually say, do you think they go on to describe intensely pleasurable, connected, playful sex? No, they describe sex that is in Peggy's words dismal and disappointing. So they come in saying they have a low desire problem, but actually what they have is a low pleasure problem. Peggy will say, you know, I rather like sex, but if that's the sex that I were having, I wouldn't want it either. Because it's not dysfunctional not to want sex you do not like. Which. Why would you, when you say it out loud, that you're like, of course. And yet the number one reason why couples seek sex therapy is because of a desire differential. One partner wants sex more than the other does. But when they go in, it turns out at least one of the partners doesn't like the sex. This happened to me too. I was in the UK talking to some friends and they were like, so, Emily, how. How do couples sustain a strong sexual connection over the long term? They both had they seven academic degrees between them and two children under five.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Wow.

[Emily Nagoski]

They're just asking out of curiosity. Nothing to do with their own lives. And I was like, put your body in the bed, you let your skin touch your partner's skin. And one of the people literally pushed away from the table with a look of disgust on her face. And I was, okay, so there's your problem. It is not that you do not want the sex. Of course you don't want it. You do not like the sex available in the relationship. So the question is, what kind of sex is worth wanting? What kind of sex is worth the time and energy that it takes? Cordoning off space and emotional energy and not doing any of the million other things we could be doing? You could be spending time with your friends or your kids or going to school or playing with your pets or taking care of your family, or God forbid, you're just watching tv. Why, when you could be doing all those other things, would you have sex? Yeah, what makes sex worth having?

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's so interesting because I have heard, and recently from. Was it my ob? She was like, the less you have, the less you want it. The more you have it, the more you want it. So you gotta create a rhythm sometimes.

[Emily Nagoski]

For some people, that works. I. So I didn't know this couple. I knew this one person who wasn't in that couple anymore because they destroyed their relationship with this. They heard in the research how often couples on average have sex and they decided that in order to be normal because they had a desire differential, they're like, fine, we will meet this normal. Heavy air quotes. Normal standard of having sex at this frequency. What is that? I am not gonna tell you because what's gonna happen in your brain when I tell you that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. You're gonna say, I don't meet this.

[Emily Nagoski]

Yeah. You're gonna be either, oh, phew, I'm doing fine, or you're gonna be like, oh, no. What the fuck is wrong with me? When I made a podcast, Mo the producer, she went and looked it up because I wouldn't tell her. I was like, it's in the science. If you want to find it, you can go find out. And she did, and she went into a lesbian death spiral because she was like, there must be something terribly wrong with us that we're not having sex with them. No. Imagine. So. Here's the thing about this couple. They had sex at that frequency. They didn't fix the fact that she didn't really like the sex they were having. So every time they had the sex, they were just reinforcing that her pleasure didn't matter, that what she wanted didn't matter. The kind of sex that they were having was not what she most wanted to be having. And they ruined their relationship because they focus more on frequency than on the quality of the sex. So it truly does not matter how often you do it, as long as when you do it, everybody who's involved really enjoys it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

So what are the three secrets of partners with happy sex lives that you describe in the introduction?

[Emily Nagoski]

Yeah, I put it in the introduction because I'm not here to keep secrets. I want everybody to have great sex. The couples who sustain a strong sexual connection, regardless of their relationship structure, whether it's open or monogamous, no matter what the gender combination is, no matter their age or ability. Three characteristics. One, they're really good friends who trust and admire each other. And this is more controversial than I thought it would originally be, really. But what I'm saying is that it matters more that you like each other than that you're horny for each other. Aww. When you admire and trust each other, it's so much easier. Why would you want to have sex with someone you don't like? Two, they prioritize sex. They decide that it matters for their relationship. They contribute something meaningful and unique, and so they protect time, space, energy. Sometimes they do the thing where they put it in the calendar.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I know, I know. I always made fun of that before. I get it now.

[Emily Nagoski]

Does it make sense?

[Chrissy Teigen]

It really does. And it. But it's not sexy at all, though.

[Emily Nagoski]

Here's my reframe. We're busy. If it's not in our calendar, it does not happen. But if we're willing to block off time and space and energy just to do this, let's face it, totally unnecessary thing. Very fun. Sometimes important. They like it a lot. But we have a lot of other things we could be doing. The fact that he's willing to protect that time and space just so that we can do that, that's hot. That's romantic. But it only works because I know that when we get there, I will like the sex if I don't like the sex. If you're in a relationship where you don't like the sex you're having, literally, you dread it. You see it on the calendar and you're like, if that's happening, scheduling is not for you. You gotta work on what kind of sex is worth having first.

[Chrissy Teigen]

John and I both excel at number one. We both love, admire, like, everything. We're best friends. Prioritizing. F. Right.

[Emily Nagoski]

That's the thing. Cause you have so many other things you need to be doing or could be doing. So many opportunities. And a lot of us feel an obligation to spend our time just cording off space and time.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay.

[Emily Nagoski]

Number three. They realize that they have been following other people's rules about who they're supposed to be as sexual people, who their partner is supposed to be as a sexual person, and what their relationship is supposed to be like, and they decide not to do that. They decide to get really deep and curious about who they truly are as a sexual person and who their partner really is as a sexual person instead of the person that we've been, like, assuming they are or wanting them to be and learning who we are as a partnership in this season of our life together. So it's deeply authentic and vulnerable and eyes open. The kind of sex that works for you in this relationship in this season of your life. Instead of following the script, it's literally like an order of operations. First, you do the kissing, then you do the. You go around the bases and you get to do things in any order you want. And you get to do all kinds of things that nobody ever tells you. You. Whether or not you're allowed to do it. There's names for everything. You get to do anything you want. There's only two things that don't count as normal from my point of view. One, unwanted pain. Unwanted pain is a medical issue, and you should talk to a provider about it. Wanted pain. Do you? Unwanted pain is not normal, and lack of consent is not normal. So normal sex is where everybody involved is glad to be there and free to leave with no unwanted consequences. And no unwanted pain. The best sex is that everybody's glad to be there, free to leave with no unwanted consequences, no unwanted pain. And everyone turns toward what's happening in the here and now with kindness and playfulness and curiosity.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What if it doesn't feel healthy, though? When I was younger, I remember I loved jealous sex. I had to be really jealous or mad at the person. I had to be pissed off or, like, really just in a mode of, like, passion. Whether it was anger, jealousy, envy, all of that. Like, that doesn't seem like a healthy place to have to go.

[Emily Nagoski]

So that is a very common thing of using sex as a way to manage other emotions, which is not prioritizing pleasure. It's prioritizing, well, fixing whatever the problem was by using sex as opposed to embracing a sexual connection, because it brings you closer to the person. And it is true that breakup sex and makeup sex can be really intense because it's a relief. We use sex as an attachment mechanism between people.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I remember, like, going to John's shows and stuff, and he would always pull up a girl on stage and I would get so fucking mad and dumb, jealous, mainly because I was drinking too much or just being stupid. And the passion that happened on those nights and stuff was so intense, you could always count on it, basically. And I was like, oh, my God, do I need to be a little bit jealous? I need to think somebody is taking you or, like. Or that your eyes drifted a little bit to do this. Like, that's not healthy.

[Emily Nagoski]

What an excellent example of prioritizing intensity and desire over pleasure. Right. Because, like, that may have been really intense. Was it the most pleasurable sex if you were in that state of mind, a threatened state of mind. Suppose you could access the same level of pleasure without that? Where you feel safe?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

And it's safe enough. You don't have to feel perfectly safe, but right at the edge, just safe enough. Taking enough of a risk. Another way to access really deep, scary, emotional intensity. Lights on eye contact, looking at each other's genitals directly, talking. Not dirty talk, but, like, talking about how much you appreciate and love each other and disclosing things you've never said before. That sort of authenticity and vulnerability can have the same riskiness to it, but it is the kind of risk that pulls you closer together.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That's so nice to give yourself permission to evolve with all the different changes that happen. And just hearing from you that I don't need fixing or I'm not messed up and I can have these moments in time. That are moments in time and they're fleeting and it'll come back again because I'm so hard on myself about stuff, and I'm so tired of being hard on myself, I can't physically do it anymore.

[Emily Nagoski]

Yeah. One of the things that you're gonna struggle with more than almost anyone on earth is there is a socially constructed, aspirational ideal of what a woman is, and you are very close to it. Rule number one for being a human giver is being pretty happy, calm, generous, and attentive to the needs of others. And because your starting place is already so warmly, generously hearted and so extremely beautiful, it feels to you like you could actually achieve perfection. You can't.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

The closer you get, the more they're going to move the goalposts. Right. And you know that you're never going to achieve perfection. But if your attention is aimed in the direction of the person you are being told that you're supposed to be the person you wish you were, the less attention you're paying to the people in your life and the less generosity you're giving to the person you actually are. And the person you actually are is a person worth being already. I know it feels tantalizingly, painfully close and that it's so it's going to be harder for you to let go of than it would for what I'm going to call an ordinary person.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Hey, it's Chrissy feeling today's conversation. Dig deeper with today's guest and hear more from all our groundbreaking guests on Audible. From bestsellers and new releases to podcasts and Audible originals, discover the next step on your journey. Go to audible.com chrissyonaudible Wait. I wanted to talk to you about this, too. John is so kind and generous and sweet and so not like so many people that I've been with before. I'm used to, like, people being forceful about it or really laying it on you if you didn't do it. He's almost so respectful that I'm not used to it. He wants me to want it and love it. And the part of me is like, oh, I think I might need to be forced. Is that weird?

[Emily Nagoski]

It makes perfect sense. And that absolutely mirrors the concept and not like for.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That sounds so bad. I don't know how to explain it.

[Emily Nagoski]

In like, it means you've been taught that he's supposed to initiate and it's supposed to be. He's supposed to want you so much he can't help himself and he is entitled to your body. That is Absolutely. The masculine script and the feminine script is. My job is to be as desirable as possible and for him to want me so much he can't help himself. Yes. And you're describing a person who can want you, who knows how much and still be patient and kind and generous and want you to want it just as much as he does. God, my husband's exactly like that. He's so sweet.

[Chrissy Teigen]

He's so kind.

[Emily Nagoski]

So it makes sense that that would be the script and you can play that game.

[Chrissy Teigen]

God, this is all the patriarchy again. So I can do it. I can do it.

[Emily Nagoski]

Two chapters on the patriarchy. One chapter specifically for heterosexual couples. And how the patriarchy. Just like, you're screwed if you try to follow the rules of the patriarchy. You literally cannot win. Nobody wins if you play the patriarchy game.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Half my life has been like, being perfect for, like, the male gaze. So it's like I'm a performer. I perform into that all the time.

[Emily Nagoski]

And expect it to take another half of your life to totally undo it. Dig out.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

From that garden. But you can play with it. Go ahead and have fun. Set a date. Get the childcare, and we're going to play the game of you're an asshole.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Couldn't even take him seriously if he tried.

[Emily Nagoski]

But it's a game. There's nothing at stake if he tries. And it's just laughter. That's. There's a.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Can you imagine John being like, I can't even. I can't even picture it, but I.

[Emily Nagoski]

Love that it's funny. Dorothy Sayers was a mystery novelist who had her detective and say, the only sin that passion can commit is to be joyless. It must lie down with laughter or make its bed in hell. There can be no middle way.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, my God. John is going to listen to this, and I'm going to have the most forceful, insane story sex of all time.

[Emily Nagoski]

Now, you can play with it as a game, and also you can explore deeply into both of you, moving toward each other gently and affectionately. And you can play with you being the aggressor because you are entitled. You can play the game, set up the rules of entitled to your body. And I want you so much, I cannot help myself. I'm gonna pin you down and do it like you've never done it before.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, my gosh, I'm sweating. Thank you.

[Emily Nagoski]

Sorry. The thing is, there's no rules. You're allowed to do anything.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, my God. Okay.

[Emily Nagoski]

There are no rules.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay.

[Emily Nagoski]

Apart from everybody's glad to be there. Free to leave with no unwanted consequences.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I was just thinking of something that just popped into my head. Now I understand why I love strip clubs so much. Because there's other women there. I love to watch them dance. I think they're beautiful to look at, but I think just knowing that they're looking at John, too, and John might be looking at them, that might be why I like them too. I just had that weird realization. Yeah, I'm a strip club lover.

[Emily Nagoski]

Yeah. That little bit of cause care. Space is your space.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Cause that's also play. That's fun. I love nights like that. It's random, exciting, and then I get that little feeling of jealousy.

[Emily Nagoski]

What I like about that narrative, as opposed to the angry narrative, is that it doesn't feel like there's anything at stake. It doesn't feel like your relationship is any way truly threatened. One of the analogies that I use is if you're on a long road trip and you really, really, really have to pee, and you finally get to pee, you have to pee so much that you struggle to pee, and then you finally pee, and it's this huge relief. It's such a relief. It almost hurts and it almost feels pleasurable. Right when it's just peeing. But it's this tremendous relief. I want more for people's sex lives than just feeling relieved having sex because you're relieved you didn't lose somebody.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

That is a way to have sex. Yeah. And I think you can aim higher.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, that's so true. There was a period in time, maybe a year or so into our relationship, where John just. His voice was hurting. He was on tour, and I was kind of joining him on tour a little bit. And he broke up with me in Miami. And I remember looking at him in my face, first instinct was, I'm gonna have sex with. I'm gonna have sex with you, or I need to have sex with you.

[Emily Nagoski]

And, like, I repair the attachment.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I can still remember so vividly that whole night and how weird and how drawn I was in that being my first go to Mode. So while there's other instances where, like, I've blocked off a lot of time and space around things that have happened, I. I can only imagine how many times I've lived my youth doing things like that and wanting people to stay and love me and don't leave me. And that comes from probably also. My mom left us when I was a teenager. And so I always thought if I could be good and perfect and pretty and smile and nice and awesome, meet.

[Emily Nagoski]

Everybody's needs and give everything, everybody they.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Want, that nobody would leave me. And then when I learned about sex, it was like, oh, I can have sex with people to stay.

[Emily Nagoski]

Like, yeah, that's gonna leave me. That's a biological infant drive to be a good girl so that no one will leave. Like from the very beginning, you're taught the rules of how to perform your gender so that no one will leave you. And then you learn that sex is a way that you can keep people close. And sex is not for you about anything to do with your pleasure, but about knowing that this is something you wield that you can keep people close with. And again, I think, I think we can aim higher and to throw that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Into the tornado of all the other things too, like sexual abuse or other capital T traumas or lowercase T traumas. It becomes a perfect storm of so many different things that you have to tackle as you grow up. Yeah, it's exhausting. And now for the toolkit. Each episodes, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Emily Nagoski shares tips and strategies to increase sexual intimacy.

[Emily Nagoski]

This first exercise is called the mirror exercise. And it's very simple. You stand in front of a mirror as close to naked as you can tolerate. You look at what you see there and you write down everything that you like. And what's going to happen in your brain is you're going to feel all the stuff that you have been told you are supposed to feel self critical of that is fine. You can have those self critical thoughts literally any other time. Right now what you're going to do is write down and you're not going to do it today. Right now, obviously this is something you do for yourself. You write down all this. If it is your ankle bones, write your ankle bones. If it is your spirit, because you see it in your eyes, write your spirit, everything that you like and then you do it again the next day and you do it again the next day. You do it every day for a month. What's going to happen is you are going to start seeing through the noise of what everybody has told you. You're supposed to feel critical about. And you're going to start seeing for real what a frickin fracking miracle your body actually is. And as you absorb the reality of what your body is, you're going to be inoculated against the cultural messages that you will still be receiving when you go out into the world. When you look at any magazine cover, when you watch any TV show, When you read any news about yourself, like, all the criticism you're going to receive, and each time you're going to find something new. Oh, that's a thing I like. And especially the parts of yourself that you feel most critical of, wait on those. But as you build up this sort of tolerance of being able to like parts of your body, what if. Look at a part that you struggle with and you're like, what if. What if I liked that part? What if that part were at least welcome as part of my body? Does that make sense? So that's the mirror exercise.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I would be looking at my C section scars, my boob scars, everything. But then I think about all the babies and.

[Emily Nagoski]

Exactly.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[Emily Nagoski]

This next exercise is called the four questions. You're going to draw a grid on a piece of paper. In the top corner, you're going to write, what is it that I want when I want sex?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Like an emotion. Or we'll get there.

[Emily Nagoski]

Okay, in the next box over, what is it that I don't want when I don't want sex?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay.

[Emily Nagoski]

In the bottom left, what is it that I like when I like sex? I think these last two questions are going to be very useful for you. And in that final box, what is it that I don't like when I don't like sex? So people's flippant first response with what is it that I want when I want sex is orgasm. But 95% of people can have an orgasm by themselves. When you get past that, what is it that you want when you want sex with this partner? Most people's first response is connection, shared pleasure, the freedom to escape and ignore all the other life factors in the world and just focus on this thing that they like. When people talk about what they don't like, the single most common answer is feeling a sense of obligation. Feeling a sense of obligation also shows up in what I don't like when I don't like sex. There can be certain behaviors people really just don't like that they're only doing because they think they're supposed to. Intercourse is number one in the what is it that I don't like when I don't like sex? But we're doing it because I thought we were supposed to? What if you didn't want to? What if you didn't have to because you don't like it? What if all of us only ever had sex we like you? Fill in the four boxes and then taking it all together, what do you notice? Is there a pattern? What do you see have your partner fill out the same four questions and talk to each other about your answers the way you've been doing. You can talk about specific instances when things went great and it was because we wanted this. You were free from that. You liked this. You didn't have to deal with this other thing. Does that make sense? It is such a more productive way to talk about sex than how often should we be having it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Emily, thank you so much for joining us today.

[Emily Nagoski]

Thank you. It's my pleasure.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Emily Nagoski's Come the Science and Art of Creating Lasting Sexual Connections is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self an Audible Original podcast. This has been an Audible Original produced by Audible and Huntley Productions, hosted by Chrissy Teigen, Executive Producer for Huntley Productions Chrissy Teigen, Executive Producer for Audible Stacy Creamer Recorded and engineered by Alex Guy Mixed and mastered by Jeremiah Zimmerman Edited by Lisa Orkin Head Creative of Development at Audible Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Gyazza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC Sound Recording Copyright 2024 by Audible Original.