Gretchen Rubin: Stop Procrastinating and Get It Done

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Gretchen Rubin: Stop Procrastinating and Get It Done”

Podcast: Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen
Host: Chrissy Teigen
Guest: Gretchen Rubin
Date: January 8, 2026

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Overview

In this thoughtful and practical episode, Chrissy Teigen sits down with best-selling author and happiness expert Gretchen Rubin to discuss why so many people struggle to start and finish their dream projects—not because they’re lazy, but because they’re using the wrong tools and self-understanding. Drawing on insights from Rubin’s new Audible Original, Get It Done: Complete Your Dream Project, they explore motivation, the value of self-knowledge, personality types, practical strategies for overcoming procrastination, and cultivating habits that work for you instead of against you. This conversation is packed with warmth, humor, and “aha” moments for anyone who has ever felt stuck or overwhelmed.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Reframing Motivation and Procrastination

• Motivation Myth

  • Rubin challenges the belief that motivation alone will push us into action:

    “Don’t expect to be motivated by motivation...that’s kind of a distract.” (02:15)

  • Many people stagnate not for lack of motivation, but because they aren't using strategies matched to how they actually work best.

• Self-Knowledge is Key

  • Teigen and Rubin agree that personal growth starts with understanding your own tendencies and needs, rather than forcing yourself into someone else’s mold.

    “If you’re stuck, it’s pro[bably] because you’re trying to jam yourself into someone else’s mold, or you’re listening to advice from somebody who doesn’t really understand you.” (03:31)

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2. Sprinters vs. Marathoners

• Rubin introduces a crucial distinction:

  • Sprinters: Thrive under last-minute pressure; creativity comes alive near deadlines.
    • Teigen relates, sharing she wrote her wedding vows 12 minutes before the ceremony.

      “I wrote my wedding vows like 12 minutes before.” — Chrissy Teigen (07:38)

  • Marathoners: Prefer working steadily over time without deadline pressure; early preparation is energizing, not draining.
    • Understanding which you are changes how you approach big projects and prevents self-sabotage.

• Difference from Procrastination:

  • Sprinters get energy from a looming deadline and typically don’t wish they’d started sooner.

    “A procrastinator regrets. So then if you’re procrastinating, then you have to find ways to start earlier. But that's a different problem than trying to change your personality from being a sprinter.” (07:41)

  • Procrastinators often feel regret and believe their work could be better if they started earlier.

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3. The Four Tendencies Framework

Rubin explains her personality typology for understanding how people respond to outer and inner expectations (10:05):

• Upholders: Meet both inner and outer expectations. Motto: “Discipline is my freedom.”
• Questioners: Meet inner but resist outer expectations, unless it makes sense to them. Motto: “I’ll comply if you convince me why.”
• Obligers: Meet outer but struggle with inner expectations. Motto: “You can count on me.”
• Rebels: Resist all expectations. Motto: “You can’t make me, and neither can I.”

Notable discussion:

• Teigen identifies most with the Obliger tendency, explains she loves to help and please others.

  “I really like to please people...I love when I have finished a task and it helps somebody else.” — Chrissy Teigen (15:05)

• Rubin points out that even powerful figures can be Obligers:

  “Oprah is an Obliger...Obligers can be amazing leaders and amazing bosses.” (16:22)

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4. Building Success with Accountability and Whimsy

• Accountability for Obligers

  • Obligers can meet inner goals by creating outer accountability—book clubs, workout partners, challenges with friends.

• Injecting Fun into Routines

  • Teigen shares family rituals (“Cheetos and Chill,” “Floss and the Furious”)—creative accountability with her children.
  • Rubin suggests leveraging this whimsy for personal habits too:

    “That’s accountability plus whimsy, which I think is great.” (19:32)

• Distinguishing Habits from Projects

  • Habits require repetition and decision-avoidance; projects are short-term, with a clear finish line.

    “If you’re approaching something as a habit, that’s different from approaching it as a project...” (20:11)

  • Rubin gives examples of how treating a one-off effort as a habit can backfire.

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5. Combating Excuses: Loopholes

• Types of Loopholes (Excuses) People Use

  • Questionable Assumption: “If I can’t do it perfectly, there’s no point in doing it at all.”
  • Morale Licensing: “I deserve a break because I was so good.”
  • Tomorrow Loophole: “I’ll start tomorrow/next week/next month.”
  • One Coin Loophole: “What difference does one day make?” The danger is small choices add up to big outcomes (27:19).

• “Fake Self-Actualization” Loophole

  • Overindulging under the guise of “self-care.”

    “This is when you think, it’s like, I’m almost being, like, good to myself by letting myself off the hook...But then next week, looking back on it, you’re like, oh, I really wish I had done it today.” (28:45)

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6. Decision Fatigue and Practical Tools

• Managing Decision Overload

  • Rubin suggests four tools for getting unstuck in decision spirals (34:20):
    1. Deadlines: Decide by a set date.
    2. Limits: Only research n options.
    3. Efficiency: Recognize diminishing returns of further research.
    4. Trusted Authority: Rely on the judgment of someone you trust.

• Saying Yes vs. Saying No

  • Teigen admits overcommitting due to people-pleasing (“the hero” instinct), struggles with regret and uncertainty.
  • Rubin offers a heuristic:

    “If it were next week, would I say yes?” (37:03)

  • Externalizing decisions—having a trusted confidant vet your commitments—can help prevent overwhelm.

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Notable Quotes

• On Motivation:

  “Don’t expect to be motivated by motivation...that’s kind of a distract.” — Gretchen Rubin (02:15)

• On Self-Knowledge:

  “If you’re stuck, it’s [probably] because you’re trying to jam yourself into someone else’s mold.” — Gretchen Rubin (03:31)

• On Sprinters:

  “I wrote my wedding vows like 12 minutes before.” — Chrissy Teigen (07:38)

• On the Four Tendencies:

  “Their motto is ‘You can count on me. And I’m counting on you to count on me.’” — Gretchen Rubin (13:55)

• On Leadership & Tendency:

  “Obligers can be amazing leaders and amazing bosses. No, a lot of times people think that...they’re a pushover. Almost 100% not.” — Gretchen Rubin (16:45)

• On Excuses:

  “We are like lawyers for ourselves. We are so good at coming up with excuses for why today is different.” — Gretchen Rubin (25:57)

• On True Self-Care:

  “A really good test for something like this is, look back, how do you feel later?...If it was true self care, you’d be like, no, you know what? That was really the right choice.” — Gretchen Rubin (29:49)

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Highlighted Moments & Timestamps

• [03:31] — The pitfalls of copying others’ productivity advice.
• [07:38] — Chrissy’s confession about last-minute wedding vows and “frantic” writing style.
• [10:05-16:39] — The Four Tendencies framework breakdown, with celeb examples.
• [18:34-19:58] — “Cheetos and Chill” and “Floss and the Furious”: creative routines for accountability.
• [22:37-24:44] — Building habits with whimsy; establishing consistent routines like “Moving Mondays.”
• [25:57-28:37] — The 10 “loopholes”—how we by-pass our commitments.
• [34:20-35:50] — Rubin’s tools for managing decision fatigue.

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Toolkit: Gretchen Rubin’s Productivity Exercises

(Starting at 33:12)

• Use deadlines to prevent open-ended indecision.
• Set limits on research and information gathering.
• Choose efficiency—don’t allow diminishing returns to eat up your time or progress.
• Delegate by using trusted authority—if a wise friend says it’s good, it’s good.

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Conclusion

This episode blends gentle humor with actionable self-discovery. Rubin and Teigen agree: There’s no one “right” way to get things done. Success and sustainable self-improvement begin with self-knowledge, finding your unique accountability triggers, recognizing your tendency toward helpful or unhelpful excuses, and designing your life to align with how you naturally work best. For procrastinators, “sprinters,” “obligers,” or anyone who’s ever struggled to turn intention into action, this is a wise, refreshing, and motivating conversation.

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Recommended: Gretchen Rubin’s Get It Done: Complete Your Dream Project (Audible Original)

Transcript

[A]

You're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness, and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier, and more productive life. For years, I had a running list of things I swore I'd start. Creative projects, house projects, even fun stuff I actually wanted to do. And yet I'd find myself organizing the junk drawer or doom scrolling instead. And then, of course, feeling awful about it. We tell ourselves we're lazy or unmotivated, but what if the real problem is that we're trying to force ourselves into strategies that don't actually work for us? Today's guest is here to change that. Gretchen Rubin is the author of the new Audible original Get It Done, Complete youe Dream Project. She breaks down why so many of us stall out. Not because we're lazy, but because we're using the the wrong tools for the job. And how knowing your personality type can unlock a whole new path forward. If you've ever felt stuck, stalled, or overwhelmed by something you care about, this episode will feel like a deep breath and a practical game plan. Gretchen Rubin, welcome to Self Conscious. Gretchen Rubin, thank you so much for being here today.

[B]

Yeah, I'm so happy to be here. This is going to be so fun, man.

[A]

A lot of people are going to need to hear what you have to say, including myself. I've always had a really hard time with the first step of anything. Getting started with something. I have only big ideas and not no motivation to start them. It's just sitting down and really doing it and getting to enjoy the process of it. Everything feels like work, even my dreams.

[B]

Yes, I hear you. That's why I think it's so important to know yourself, because it's like, why is it that you're feeling stuck? Why is it that you're not being able to move forward? Because I think one big mistake people make is they think that they should be motivated by motivation.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And don't expect to be motivated by motivation. And so what people think is like, well, if I just whip myself up into a frenzy of desire to make my dreams come true, that's gonna make my action follow. But it doesn't work like that. As you know, it's like motivation. It's like, don't even worry about motivation. That's kind of a. I think that's kind of a distract.

[A]

This is so timely and great for right now, especially because so many young people are really wanting to live out their dreams. They're not wanting to have the regular nine to five have a boss. They want to start their own business, start their own company, be the artist that they want to be, be the dj, be all these different things.

[B]

But, Chrissy, don't you think sometimes that's harder? Because then you have to be the boss of yourself and figure out what to do until you stop. You're telling me.

[A]

Oh, my gosh.

[B]

Sometimes Andy Warhol has a line where he says, like, if I could have anybody on retainer, I'd have a boss on retainer. People might think it's easier to be the boss of yourself. It can be a lot harder.

[A]

Oh, my goodness. Especially for somebody like me that, honestly, I grew up being told what to do. And I worked in an industry where they would tell you how to pose, what to look like, what to say, how to act, and I flourish in those.

[B]

You're like, how hard?

[A]

Yeah. Oh, you're so right, though. It is so much harder just to make something happen where you have no.

[B]

Direction for some people. And I think this is another mistake people make is they're like, what's true for one person is true for everyone. And there is no one size fits all solution. And so when somebody says, well, this is the way that's gonna work for you, I'm like, maybe that your mileage may differ, that people are really different. Some people never want somebody to tell them what to do. They wanna do what they wanna do in their own work, in their own way. But then other people really thrive when somebody else gives them accountability and the deadlines and the framework. And so it's knowing yourself and knowing there's no wrong way. There's nothing wrong with you. But people are different. And if you're stuck, it's pro because you're trying to jam yourself into someone else's mold, or you're listening to advice from somebody who doesn't really understand you. Okay, here's another distinction that might be useful. Sprinters versus marathoners. So marathoners are people like me. We like to work slowly and steadily, starting way in advance. And we like a lot of room. We don't like being up against the deadline. So marathoners will often finish early, but they also feel like that's what unlocks their creativity and their energy is like giving themselves a lot of time to, like, just slowly move forward. But then there are sprinters, and sprinters like the adrenaline of the deadline. They feel like it crystallizes their ideas. And gives them energy. And if they start too early, they kind of get bored. And so maybe you're a sprinter and you're like, okay, we've got two months. Let's bring it all in and let's just focus and like push it. And the energy of that, now, see, that would make me frantic. I don't like working that way. But for you, you know that about yourself. So if you were gonna do another cookbook, it wouldn't be like, well, let's start 18 months in advance and do one recipe per day.

[A]

Cause it sounds like that, that's a nightmare to me.

[B]

It wouldn't be your creativity, it wouldn't be your energy. It would turn it into a dreaded work where you're like, oh my gosh. Then you'd feel like you were procrastinating. You can see how this is a downward cycle. But if you know that you're a sprinter, then you're like, okay, I've done it before. Well, I know what works for me. This is what we should plan on. And then everybody feels like everything's going exactly to plan. Now someone like me gets anxious cause we're like, oh, you've only got two months. But you're like, this is how I work. This is my way. I always have to work. Yeah.

[A]

The only thing is, it worries other people. If I were to say, when they're just checking in, how's that book going?

[B]

But that's the thing is if you're like, I just want to tell you what my process is, then they know what to expect. The problem is when you're like, oh, it's fine, it's fine. And you're not doing anything. But if you're like, how many? You've written three cookbooks, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so you've got a track record. If you're like, this is what works. I've done it before, I know what it takes. Then people are like, okay, I guess if this is what she does, this is her way. Because there's many ways to do it. But I think that people, a lot of times, they feel like they're doing it wrong. But it's like, there's no wrong way or right way. It's what works for you. But you want to. But then you have to say, like, for two months, I have to clear.

[A]

The dust, I gotta do it.

[B]

I can't be like, oh, and we're gonna take a three week family vacation. Because you're like, no, Everybody has to understand this is what this two month period Is which takes discipline too, and is very hard. But it might be the kind of work that's easier for you because it fits into your approach generally. And so that's the thing about completing a dream project is when people are trying to get it done, when they do it in the way that's right for them, it turns out that it's much easier. It's like trying to write with your non dominant hand. I'm left handed. And sometimes you're using a computer in a hotel or something and they'll have the mouse and I have to use it with my right hand. I can't even get the mouse to point in the right place with my right hand. So you can imagine when we set things up for ourselves, it's so much easier to get these things done.

[A]

Man, I was a sprinter in high.

[B]

School, and I was a sprinter.

[A]

It's like, yeah, I'm a true.

[B]

At the core, you're a sprinter.

[A]

I really do. Yeah. I prefer it that way. Not just the rush of it, but I feel like I write better when I'm more frantic.

[B]

No, people say it crystal. I mean, I remember I first got my insight into this when somebody was saying to me, like, when I give a talk, I have it all planned out. It's memorized. Like it's weeks in advance. And somebody said, oh, for me, man, I'm planning my speech is. They're micing me up backstage. That's how I get my ideas. And I have like, my eyes balls rolling. Oh, yeah.

[A]

I wrote my wedding vows like 12 minutes before.

[B]

And so you're a sprinter. You're a sprinter. And that's a really valuable thing to know about yourself because you're like, I will get it done and I will. And the way, you know you're a sprinter and not procrastinating. Okay. Because a lot of times people are like, but I don't feel like a sprinter. And yet I do push up against a deadline. A procrastinator is somebody who feels like I let myself down. I could have done a better job if I'd given myself more time. But sprinters are like, that's how I get my good ideas. This is what crystallizes and energizes me. Sprinters, they like that a procrastinator regrets. So then if you're procrastinating, then you have to find ways to start earlier. But that's a different problem than trying to change your personality from being a sprinter. So your wedding vow's 12 minutes before.

[A]

Yeah, Yeah, I think I Write, I'm better when I'm, like, frantic and emotional, and I feel like it makes the writing much more personal and interesting.

[B]

Yeah, that pressure.

[A]

Yeah. And for example, like, my friend just got married last week, and I had to make a speech for her, and I would never want her to think that because I wrote it like, an hour before I said it, that it meant I cared less about it. I'm just better that way.

[B]

But see, this is why I like having a vocabulary for these distinctions, because it shows that it's not personal. Because if you said to her, look, it has nothing to do with my feelings for you. I'm a sprinter. This is how I get my creative inspiration. Then she'd be like, oh, I get it. But if she didn't know about that, she might think, well, obviously you don't care about me. Right. And it's not. Or like somebody. If you're. You know, if you. If a marathoner is married to a sprinter, like, they could get really anxious. But if you just say, like, well, this is just my way. My way is to start early. That's what makes me feel like I'm gonna get it done, and this is the right way.

[A]

I care about you so much that I'm choosing to do it in the way that works best for me and you.

[B]

And it has nothing to do with my feelings for you. It just has to do with your process. Yeah.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I love that you were actually were a sprinter. That's very funny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My earliest fringer.

[A]

I always wanted to be a part of so many different things, but I never wanted to really, like, go all out for it. And I felt like sprinting in track was great. I loved hurdles. I loved the quick stuff. Get it over with, get it done. You did it. And then you get to say you did it, and then it's done. It doesn't take a lot of training.

[B]

You're a true sprinter. Like, cram it in high stakes, give it all, leave it all in the field, and walk away.

[A]

And then be done with it.

[B]

And then be done with it.

[A]

Oh, I love walking away from things and being done with it.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

All right, so talk to me about the four tendencies.

[B]

Okay, so the four tendencies is a personality framework that I created, invented, discovered that really helps people figure out how to complete their projects and how to set themselves up for success with their habits and so much other stuff. Also, it really helps with understanding other people. Okay, so I'm gonna explain the four tendencies, and I am so interested to hear what you are okay, so people can take a quiz on my gretchenrubin.com. i love a quiz. Oh, my gosh, I love online quiz. I have so many quizzes.

[A]

I have so many languages.

[B]

All of that.

[A]

Oh, I like that.

[B]

I love the love languages. No, I have so many great quizzes. So check out my site. But. And this one, like three and a half million people have taken it. But I'll just explain it very quickly and you will know what you are. We could do the Game of Thrones characters. We can do the Office. Like, these are really easy.

[A]

Oh, yeah, Office, Seinfeld, anything.

[B]

So I'll give a brief overview. Don't decide what you are until I've described all four. Okay? Okay. I have a suspicion of what you are. We'll see if I'm right. Okay, so what this looks at sounds very boring, but ends up being super, super juicy, which is how you respond to expectations. So we all face two kinds of expectations. Outer expectations, which is like a work deadline, and inner expectations, which is like your own desire to get back into meditation. So depending on whether you meet or resist, outer and inner expectations, that's what makes you an upholder, a questioner, an obliger, or a rebel. So upholders are the people who readily meet outer and inner expectations. They meet the work deadline. They keep the inner resolution, the New Year's resolution, without much fuss. They want to know what other people expect from them. But their expectations for themselves are just as important. So their motto is like, discipline is my freedom. And John, I feel like it sounds like it from what you were saying. I was like, ooh, I'm getting a polder vibes from that. I'm an upholder myself. But sometimes upholders can be rigid. It's hard for them to, like, change their plans. So they can sometimes be a little bit judgmental because things come. Some things are easier for them than other people. Then there are questioners. Questioners question all expectations. They'll do something if they think it makes sense. They're always asking why. They love reasons, rationale, efficiency. They often love to customize or like, monitor and track because they love data, and so they're willing to do something if it makes sense to them. If it meets their inner standard, they'll do it, no problem, because it makes sense. But if it doesn't make sense to them, they will push back. So their motto is, I'll comply if you convince me why. Then there are obligers. This is the biggest tendency. This is the one the most number of people belong to. Both Men and women, Obligers readily meet outer expectations, but they struggle to meet inner expectations. These are people who say, why can I keep my promises to other people? But I have trouble keeping my promises to myself. They often talk about taking time for self care or making themselves a priority because they're always coming through for other people. But they've struggled for themselves. But the great thing about Obligers is the solution is very straightforward. To meet an inner expectation, you have to create outer accountability. If you want to read more, you have to join a book club. If you want to exercise, you have to exercise with a friend or work out with a trainer. Work out with somebody who's going to be really annoyed if you don't show up. Raise money for a charity, go running with your dog. There's a million ways to create outer accountability if you realize that is what you need. But obligers are great team members, great friends, great family members, great leaders. I've had employers tell me they only want to hire obligers. They want to screen for obligers because they're so valuable. So their motto is, you can count on me. Because it's like, yeah, yeah, here I am. Yeah. Who's going to go the extra mile? The obliger. You can count on me. And I'm counting on you to count on me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then finally, rebels. Rebels resist all expectations, outer and inner alike. They want to do what they want to do in their own way, in their own time. They can do anything they want to do. They can do anything they choose to do. But if you ask or tell them to do something, they're very likely to resist. And typically they don't even tell themselves what to do. Like they don't sign up for a 10am spin class on Saturday because they think I don't know what I'm going to want to do on Saturday. And just the idea that somebody's going to expect me to show up is going to annoy me. So their motto is, you can't make me and neither can I. Yeah. So those are the four. I'm an upholder. What do you think you are?

[A]

I am all the. I'm the other three, I would say, with a huge emphasis on obliging, I think.

[B]

Yeah, I think from the way you've described yourself.

[A]

But I question everything as well. And what was the second. So what was the second one?

[B]

You questioner?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I'm also like, does this make sense? Why do I have to do this? Is this the right way to do it? So it's weird to be both of those. I feel.

[B]

Okay, well, so let's figure out which one.

[A]

And I feel very bad about being a questioner. I don't like it. I'm much happier being an Obliger.

[B]

Now that's interesting. Why do you suppose that is?

[A]

Because I really like to please people and I like to make them happy and I like to. I love when I have finished a task and it helps somebody else.

[B]

Okay. Can I ask a few follow up questions to try to say, because I'm wondering, like, are you like a self hating questioner or are you just like a really analytical Obliger? Okay, so I'm gonna. Okay, imagine that you and I are in a coffee and we're in the back room of a coffee shop and there's nobody around. There's not even like a, you know, wait staff around.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's a big sign on the wall and it says absolutely no cell phone use. And I pull out my cell phone and start using it. How do you feel?

[A]

Oh, gosh. I mean, I wouldn't say anything, but it would, it would be like, oh, you don't, you don't have any regard for the rules.

[B]

I think that's an Obliger.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because the question would be like, why is that a rule? Yeah, why does that make sense?

[A]

Yeah, I'd. Well, it is. And that's a blind. We don't. It's not our defense.

[B]

The Obliger is the rule. Like, as an upholder, I'd be frantic. I'm like, oh, my gosh, there's a rule. We have to keep the rule. Don't you see the sign?

[A]

Wait, I'm curious what celebrities like. They can be so incredibly famous that we don't even know them. You would associate with each of these tendencies?

[B]

Well, let's see if I can do it off the top of my head. Because you're right, you're absolutely right that sometimes you have to know how somebody thinks because you can't just judge by what they do. And so sometimes it's very confusing. But I would say that Taylor Swift is an upholder, for instance, Steve Jobs is a questioner. Princess Diana is an Obliger. Oprah is an Obliger.

[A]

Which is so interesting because I see them as being like, obviously, Oprah's a boss. Like, she's a leader.

[B]

Obligers can be amazing leaders and amazing bosses. No, a lot of times people think that there are all these associations, like a pushover. Almost 100% not. No obligers can be fierce, but they will often do it for others. They can be amazing leaders. And sometimes like with rebels, people, they think, well, all rebels are like selfish teenagers. I'm like, no, rebels can do anything they want to do. And some rebels are incredibly civically minded. They want to do something for other people, but they're doing it because that's what they want. That's what they choose at all moments. And again, none of these are better, smarter, happier, better leaders, more creative. When you look at the people who are really happy, creative, successful, it's they figured out themselves and they've given themselves everything that they need to succeed. So if you're an obliger, I would say you need outer accountability.

[A]

I really love that you say that. If you want to get something done, then you gotta make it happen. Like, yeah, if I want to read more, I'm the kind of person that would have to join a book club.

[B]

Right. But it's also that there's no accountability. There's a million ways to create outer accountability. So here's just some that I would just throw out to you. You could say, I'm going to read in front of my children because I want to model for my children, that reading is something that people do for pleasure. I'm going to read the books that my children are reading for school so that we can discuss it. You can do a challenge with another friend. Like, okay, I'm going to send you a screenshot. After I've read my first two chapters, you send me a screenshot. And so we're going to hold each other accountable.

[A]

Wait. In a weird way, we've been creating this with our kids for the past few weeks. Actually. I wanted to make sure that I was spending time with both our two year olds equally and that we had like a special time where they felt like they had me all to themselves.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

So we created something called Cheetos and Chill and we have Cheeto puffs in my bed. And we watch it.

[B]

That's dangerous episode of Living on the Edge.

[A]

I know, I know. The wipes are out though for it.

[B]

Good, good, good.

[A]

But we watch one episode of Trash Truck and then it's a thing that we call it that and we do it. And then we just started called Floss and the Furious where Miles, my son, he loves fast cars, very into, Loves a good movie, but he also has way too many cavities for his age. So he needs to be flossing a lot more. So I had to create this whole thing to make sure that I would get it done. And I find myself really sticking to it so much more than if I were to just be like, Myles, it's 7:30. It's time to floss and go to bed. If I create these whole structures around something, it's become, like, really fun for us. Boss and the Furious is great. We just watch Vin Diesel and floss our teeth for 15 minutes together. It's getting me to floss. It's getting him to floss. We enjoy it. But, yeah, it doesn't work for me to just like, loosely do something. Yes, I have to. I have to make it happen in a weird. Yeah, I have to make it a real thing.

[B]

So I think that's accountability plus whimsy, which I think is great. Like, you're finding a way to, like, put a spin on it so that it feels fun. And it does. It sounds like you don't, like, change your world, change our world, work, like, work. And so. But that's something to think about where you're like, let me look at all the things in my life that feel heavy, that I dread and think, how can I put my spin on it so that I can transform it? Because this is great, because you have this creative imagination as a way to do it, but you're doing it for your kids. Maybe you need to do it for yourself. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, it's true. Yeah. Adding the whimsy to it makes it so easy and fun. You make a big distinction between habits and projects. Why do you think that's so important? And how does it change the way that we all approach our goals?

[B]

That's a really interesting question. So let's say you want to exercise or you want to eat more healthfully or you want to read more. These are things where you have to think about, how can I make it into a habit? But then sometimes you want a project where you're like, okay, I need to figure out how I'm going to switch careers. I need to write a novel that I've been dreaming about for years. I need to move or I need to, like, help my mother move into a system.

[A]

Every single thing that you said is on my mind.

[B]

Right, right. And so if you're approaching something as a habit, that's different from approaching it as a project. But sometimes people get confused and they think that if they do a project, it will build a habit. For instance, people say, oh, Well, I did 21 days of yoga, no problem. So I thought, I'm doing yoga regularly. But then I've never done yoga again. Or I Gave up sugar for Lent and it was easy. And I thought, oh great, now I've quit sugar, but now I'm eating more sugar than ever. So sometimes when you do something as a project, you think that it's helping you create a habit. But there's actually a different mindset that you have to have if you're building a habit. But there are a lot of things you can do to push yourself to finish a project. Cause you don't have to build it into a habit. It's just something that where it's like one and done. And so if that's what's the challenge for you, you wanna just say like, okay, I'm gonna treat this as a project and work on this project.

[A]

For some reason when it comes to something like working out, I often tell myself that because I can only do it one time this week, then it's not worth it until the week that I can do it three times every other day or something. So it just stops me from doing it at all.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then I've created nothing, I haven't done anything. And I don't where I've gotten this from. Obviously it's beneficial to work out at all, to get some movement in for me. It's like a big deal for me to get out of the house. My kids school is right next to the place that I would typically work out at. So if I can just find it in myself to do that thing that'll make me happy and them happy, which is taking them to school in the morning and then knowing that, oh, that workout place is also right by there. I almost have to make it into a big thing every time.

[B]

So it sounds like what you wanna do is make it into a habit. Because the advantage of a habit is that then you don't have the decision fatigue of deciding like today, tomorrow, next week. And you also don't have to use your willpower. Cause you don't use your willpower to brush your teeth. You're not deciding today, should I brush my teeth tomorrow, should I brush my teeth? I've been so good about brushing my teeth, I think I deserve a day off. It sounds like it might be a good idea to try to make it into a habit.

[A]

John will take the kids to school every single morning. That is his habit. That is what he does. Because if I were to do it, it would have to have this whole like formula around it to different benefits I would get if I were to do something like that. It has to be multiple benefits, not just the act of, oh, I drove them to school today. It has to be that.

[B]

Oh, okay, let's do this right now. Okay. You want to drive them to school and go to the gym, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Which day of the week works best for that?

[A]

Any. Any. Honestly, at that time? Yeah. I don't a morning person. I very rarely schedule morning things. Things. But I also only work out in the morning.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I love a jump start.

[B]

Okay, so let's say Monday, because Monday feels like kind of a clean slate day. And then it's done for the week, and that feels good. And then you're probably well rested anyway because it's been the weekend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay, so what's a. Like a. Let's say, like, alliteration. What's Monday? There's like, I know I gotta make it. Or like meaty Monday. Or like, what's like a phrase or what rhymes with Monday?

[A]

God, I even do that with food, by the way.

[B]

Monday.

[A]

Like, I structure food in a way that it's with alliteration too.

[B]

Well, there you go.

[A]

Okay, so yeah, our Taco Tuesdays, everything.

[B]

Okay, so let's break.

[A]

Moving Mondays.

[B]

Moving. Okay. Moving Monday. Okay, it's Monday. It's moving. So every Monday, it's like, it's a thing. Mom's taking us to school. Mommy's moving Monday, and they'll look forward to it. Mom takes us to school, and then you go work out. It's Monday. And you do it and that's just like, it's Monday. Are you going? Yes. You are?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because you go on Monday.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you going on Tuesday? No. Are you going on Wednesday? No. Are you feeling guilty? Cause you didn't go on Friday. No, you are not.

[A]

I really love that.

[B]

And make it a whole thing. Like, listen to, like, your favorite workout music in the car. And the thing is, they'll see my mother's modeling commitment to self, which is really important. Exercise is important and worth sticking to. That's also important.

[A]

It also makes me feel very good to know that I did something for them that they love too, obviously. So I get a joy out of, like, oh, my God, like, that made them happy.

[B]

Well, but also because you do it consistently, they can look forward to it and they can count on it. It's not like something where they're, maybe she will, maybe she won't. And they won't nag you because you're like, I'm not doing it today. It's not Monday, Mom. Is Monday.

[A]

So much of our life is that because we have, like, our pancake Sundays, here you go. But, yeah, I just realized. And we stick to it when it's like that.

[B]

But see, I think you need that whimsy. I think you need to make it fun. And, yeah, think of the way to make the car ride fun and then also going to the gym at the same time, the people will be probably kind of get familiar. And then that also makes it feel more comfortable and can be more fun. Some people make it gym friends. I think you should try it.

[A]

I can do it for my kids so easily if I did it for myself. Oh, my God.

[B]

But that's obliging, unstoppable. Because it's an accountability. Because you're like, I will do it for my children.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, there's many things that people can do for their children that they can't do for themselves. And as an upholder, I used to contradict that. I would say, don't do it for them, do it for you. You're important. But now I realize for an obliger, that's a very important way to think about things. It's like, I'm gonna quit smoking for my children. Or I'm going to model this behavior because I want to show for many obligers, it's. I wanna show my child that a person should keep their promises to themselves. And that's very powerful. Okay. Happiness bullied.

[A]

Let's see, Moving Mondays. Moving Matcha Mondays.

[B]

Yeah, there you go.

[A]

So let's talk loopholes.

[B]

Ooh, I love loopholes. So loopholes are the excuses that we make to let ourselves off the hook. And we are like lawyers for ourselves. We are so good at coming up with excuses for why today is different. I should let myself off the hook today. And there are 10 categories of loopholes. And the one mentioned as an example is what I would call the questionable assumption loophole. This is when you're like, well, if I can't exercise every day, there's no point in exercising at all. And you're like, is that true? That's a questionable assumption. My favorite loophole is the false choice loophole, which is things like, well, of course I have no time to go to a dentist appointment because I'm so busy writing. And you're like, like, is that a false choice? Or could you both go to the dentist and write regularly? It's like, I think I can do both of those. One is a tomorrow loophole, which is. You're like, it doesn't matter what I do. I'm doing today because starting tomorrow, I'm gonna Be so good. Starting in January, I'm gonna be so frugal. I'm gonna stick to my budget starting on, you know, next Monday, I'm gonna work on my resume every single day. It's like, okay, start today. And then the moral licensing loophole is when you say, I deserve a break because I've been so good. I've been so about doing xyz, I deserve some time off. And it's like, yeah, but if you're trying to keep a habit or you're trying to do something regularly, the whole point is that you're doing it. You're doing it.

[A]

I might be the loophole queen.

[B]

No, we all do. We all do all of these. The most dangerous loophole, because it works for everything, is. And this one is a little bit. Takes a little bit of explanation, which is what I call the one coin loophole. So there's this famous teaching story which goes like this. Does one coin make a man rich? And you would say, no, one coin doesn't make a man rich. But what if you give him a coin? What if you give him another coin? What if you give him another coin? At some point you say, a man is rich because one coin made him rich. And this kind of works in the reverse for habits. Because you can always say about a habit, what difference does it make if I go to the gym today? What's one day of going to the gym? What's one day of writing my novel? What's one day of writing my children's book? What's one day of reading to my kids? And it's always true. Because any one day, one splurge, you know, oh, one. Busting your budget, it's inconsequential. But the only way you get a project done, the only way you form a habit is one day. One day. One day. One coin, One coin, One coin. So you always have to focus on the pile of coins, not the one coin. Because the one coin loophole will always be like, yeah, well, today doesn't matter. But if you say that every day, you'll never do it.

[A]

Do you feel like people now give themselves a lot of excuses? It's like, give yourself grace or you deserve rest. Don't feel bad about rest.

[B]

Do you know what that. Okay, you just identified another one that is called the fake self actualization loophole. This is when you think, it's like, I'm almost being, like, good to myself by letting myself off the hook. Yes. Self care. It's self care or to somebody else. You're like, you should give yourself a break. Yeah, but come on. I mean, you have to say to yourself, but a really good test for something like this is, is look back, how do you feel later? Because often it's like, well, in the moment it feels great to let yourself off the hook. But then next week, looking back on it, you're like, oh, I really wish I had done it today. It feels great to say to myself, you don't need to go to the gym. But then next week, looking back, do you wish you'd gone to the gym? Because if it was true self care, you'd be like, no, you know what? That was really the right choice. That was really the right choice for me. And so if you consistently let it on a beautiful day like today, how can you, you know, how can you force yourself to sit inside? Like, it's like, well, but you live in California, there's gonna be a lot of nice days. If you only work when it's raining, you're never gonna get it done. But you're absolutely right. Fake self actualization.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

It is a very common, popular loophole.

[A]

If you're tired, it means your body needs it and you deserve rest.

[B]

Right. But then you're not facing things like, well, you're tired because you're staying up till 2am Binge watching. Absolutely. You don't wanna let yourself off the hook. You do wanna say, because sometimes to be happier, we have to ask ourselves to do things that are hard or to deprive ourselves of things that we want in the moment, because we know that that's what's gonna build our happiness over the long term. So sometimes we do have to ask ourselves to do something that we'd rather not do. And so if you activate that loophole, you're never gonna get that done.

[A]

Yeah. So what do you do then? If you're in a situation or if you're in an industry where you have to get shit done and you have to meet this deadline and you have to meet this quota and these are the rules for it, but you don't necessarily work that way. At best.

[B]

That is an excellent question, and of course it's a very realistic question. But I will say this, that as much as you can control it or steer yourself, you want to be aware. If you know about your tendency, you can think about the fact like, is this environment going to bring out the best in me and value me and my kind of contribution, or is it going to work against me? So for instance, rebels often do really well in Sales. Because sales is like, whatever you need to do to get that sale done, you do it. And there's a lot of spontaneity and kind of like, they put themselves into situations where they have a lot of freedom and a lot of like, I'm a restaurant manager, so I'm at this restaurant, that restaurant. Nobody knows where I am. I can do what I want as long as I get it done. That's all they care about. Weirdly, rebels are often attracted to the military, the police, and the clergy. They do well in high regulation, which is like a whole separate thing. Or like a questioner, you might be in a workplace where they're like, we're totally data driven, and so your questioning is highly valued. Or you could be in a place where they're like, we're here to work for the team, and whatever the team says, the team does. I'm like, we've always done it this way. For an obliger, that might be fine, or for an upholder, that might be fine. But a questioner would drive them bonkers. And so it wouldn't be a good fit for them. Now if they had to be in an environment like that, it might be good for them to understand, like, why am I feeling so frustrated? Why are people getting so frustrated with me? They're feeling drained and overwhelmed by my questions. So let me understand why there's a disconnect between my approach and their approach and try to bridge that. So I think just being conscious of why you might feel uncomfortable in an environment or why it might feel more taxing to you than to other people is really, really helpful. It can help you talk to a boss or your teammates about, like, why you're feeling the way you are. Realistically, of course, people don't always have the luxury of choice, but sometimes we can. We are choosing. And you could think about, well, is this the kind of place where my kind of strengths would help me succeed?

[A]

And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Gretchen Rubin shares exercises that will improve your productivity.

[B]

Do you ever get lost in decision making where you can't move forward because you just. You're sort of overwhelmed with 1 billion percent?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. So it's kind of a form of procrastination because you're like, I need more and more research. Okay, so I'm gonna give you an approach to. To help when you get stuck in that research spiral. Can you think of an example, like, buying a bike or buying, you know, oh, no.

[A]

So I feel like I am the head of the household too often and that a lot of decisions are up to me. You know, John will. He'll give his input, but I have the final say in probably, like, 100% of things that happen at this house. So, yeah, I feel very overwhelmed all the time by the amount of choosing. Choosing. This is all on me. Is this the right decision? Am I doing this? Am I making this decision this way because I'm tired today? It's like going to the grocery store when you're full, right? You don't want anything. If I am overloaded with work, I'm gonna say no to something that could be really, really great on a certain day. So that's my mind all the time. It is, yeah. I could go on about this forever. It makes me shake even thinking about it. It is such a big part of my life.

[B]

Okay, so I have four kind of tools to use. So one is deadlines, which is I'm gonna make a decision by. And then I'm just gonna decide so that things get done. So you don't have a million open loops going. So having a deadline, like, I'm gonna decide by the end of the month or another one is limits. Because, you know, sometimes you're like, well, what's the best summer camp for my kid? I'll interview every parent that I meet for six months. And it just goes on and on and on. So sometimes it's like, I'm gonna talk to 10 parents, but not 30 parents. I'm gonna visit five bike stores, but not 100 bike stores. I'm gonna to look at five websites and do my research, but not 10 websites. So you give yourself limits so that you know when you've sort of done a good enough job. And another one is efficiency. And those are related because at a certain point, it's not efficient to keep researching. You're like, the incremental information that you're gonna get, it's just not worth it. And you wanna say, like, you know, at this point, it's better to, like, make the reservation now while we can get a good price and get what we want. But if I keep researching and keep looking around, time goes on and we might not get what we want. So it's less efficient. And then the final. And this is maybe the most fun one is trusted authority, which is when you say, if it's good enough for you, it's good enough for me. I don't need to do independent research on everything. I could just ask somebody Whose judgment I trust and say, like, on balance, maybe there's a tiny little bit of difference, but if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.

[A]

Yeah. That's why I always say that we hire really well because they are able to reflect exactly what we would want. So then it takes so much decision making away from me. I fully trust them.

[B]

No, that's an amazing way to do it. Was just to say, I'm gonna let somebody else decide whose judgment that I trust so that I don't have to do it at all.

[A]

Somebody here the other day said that, like, also a thing for me is, like, I say yes to everything, too. Yeah, it is.

[B]

I call it a shiny object problem. I'm like, it's a shiny new object. How can I say no?

[A]

How often do you regret your yeses, though? Do you regret them often?

[B]

Okay, this is the problem. Maybe you have this problem. Everything that you do is valuable, but if you say yes to everything, then you have no life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So what do you say no to? Because in the end. Because everything feels valuable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know. It's. It's a. I'm always, like, trying to figure out what the heuristic is.

[A]

It worries me because I worry that just because I'm tired, I said no to something that was really great. And then just because, like, maybe I had more energy that day, I say yes to that. I wouldn't necessarily do. If someone had said, who was it on this podcast that was like, if you wouldn't do it tomorrow, odds are you're not gonna wanna do it again.

[B]

That is the one thing I do is like, if it were next week, would I say yes?

[A]

I often think about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like. And it consumes me at times, but.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I also am trying to get more information because what I realized I was falling into this bad habit of, like, I would build a fantasy of what the thing was, and then I would do it. And I'm like, it's not what I thought it was gonna be. So why did I say yes? And then I. I'm like, because I made all that up in my own mind. So now I'm like, well, what exactly is this? Because a lot of times when you ask, you're like, oh, actually, this is an easy no. Or, this is an easy yes. But it's not my fantasy of what I. Why do I think I know what this is gonna be?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm trying to.

[A]

I think I like to be the hero in a lot of circumstances. So, like, when it comes to saying yes to things, people are like, yes. She said yes. And then I get to be like, I did it.

[B]

I'm here right now. It's hard because it's true. Because that is true. Yeah, right.

[A]

That's kind of all the motivation I need sometimes is like, oh, God, like, everyone's gonna be so happy that I said yes.

[B]

Well, you know what some people do is they have somebody, like a trusted person, and they're like, I can't say yes unless I tell you I'm doing it. And so the person will be like, well, you know, your January is starting to look bonkers. Or, you know, that sounds exactly like that other thing that you did that you ended up not really regretting.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like, not that they have the right to veto, but that just telling somebody who could be like, hold the phone. My friend who was doing this said, like, now she doesn't even need. Like, she can just in her mind hear the person saying, are you sure that makes sense? And she's like, wait a minute. You know, just so.

[A]

Just to give you pause for a little bit.

[B]

Just to give you pause. I think that that can be really helpful. So the trusted authority you can use in a lot of different ways.

[A]

Gretchen, thank you so much for joining me today on Self Conscious. This has been really wonderful. This has been so fun.

[B]

This is so fun. Thank you.

[A]

Gretchen, thank you so much for joining me today on Self Conscious. Gretchen Rubin's Audible Original Get It Done Complete youe Dream Project is available now. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible, Q Code and Huntley Production, hosted by Chrissy Teigen. Written and executive produced by Jimmy Jelinek Executive Producers for Q Code Shen Yan Hu and Alexa Gabrielle Ramirez Executive Producer for Huntley Productions Chrissy Teigen Executive Producer for Audible Stacy Creamer Recorded and engineered by Ben Milchev Filmed by Bridger Clements Production Coordinator Brian Coulter Edited, mixed and mastered by Ben Milchev Head of Creative Development at Audible Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Gyaza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC. Sound Recording Copyright 2025by Audible Originals LL.