Jefferson Fisher: Stop Spiraling: Use This 3-Step Script for Every Tough Talk

Summary

Episode Summary: "Jefferson Fisher: Stop Spiraling: Use This 3-Step Script for Every Tough Talk"

In this enlightening episode of Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, host Chrissy Teigen engages in a profound conversation with Jefferson Fisher, a renowned Texas trial lawyer and author of the bestseller The Next Conversation. The episode, released on July 24, 2025, delves into the intricacies of effective communication, especially during challenging conversations, offering listeners actionable strategies to foster healthier and more productive dialogues.

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1. Introduction to Effective Communication

Chrissy Teigen opens the episode by highlighting the universal struggle of maintaining clarity during difficult conversations. She underscores how emotions often overwhelm our carefully rehearsed words, leading to frustration, defensiveness, or even silence. This setting introduces Jefferson Fisher, whose expertise lies in guiding individuals to communicate with composure and integrity, even amidst emotional turbulence.

Chrissy Teigen [00:50]: "We all want to be understood, but so often the way we speak gets in the way."

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2. Jefferson Fisher’s Journey to Communication Expertise

Jefferson Fisher shares his unexpected path from being an attorney to becoming a communication expert. Initially focused on law, his foray into social media revealed that the communication techniques he taught his clients for legal examinations were equally effective in everyday conversations. This revelation led him to dedicate himself to helping millions navigate their personal interactions with greater calm and compassion.

Jefferson Fisher [02:32]: "It's been the most fulfilling thing to find when you feel like you're walking in the right path in your mission and your purpose."

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3. The Impact of Upbringing on Communication Styles

The conversation shifts to how one's upbringing shapes their communication patterns. Both Chrissy and Jefferson acknowledge the hereditary aspects of communication styles, particularly the tendency to remain calm or, conversely, to escalate emotions during discussions.

Jefferson Fisher [03:23]: "I'm a fifth generation trial attorney… the conversation you have with yourself to make sure that inner dialogue is just, if not stronger."

Chrissy reflects on her own experiences growing up, moving frequently, and adapting to various environments, which led her to avoid conflict and suppress her true feelings during conversations.

Chrissy Teigen [04:54]: "I never knew what kind of mood they were going to be in… I never have great conversations and I'm not very argumentative because I can adapt…"

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4. Introducing the 3-Step Script for Tough Conversations

Jefferson introduces his signature 3-step script designed to prevent conversations from spiraling out of control. This framework emphasizes self-control, setting clear conversational goals, and establishing mutual understanding.

Step 1: Define the Subject

Begin by clearly stating the topic you wish to discuss, avoiding vague phrases like "We need to talk." Instead, specify the issue directly.

Jefferson Fisher [07:43]: "Number one, you want to tell them what the conversation is going to be about… something as easy as that."

Step 2: Set the Conversation's End Goal

Communicate how you intend the conversation to conclude, whether it’s reaching mutual understanding or simply expressing your feelings.

Jefferson Fisher [07:40]: "You tell them how the conversation is going to end. You're injecting the goal into the conversation."

Step 3: Obtain Agreement to Proceed

Ensure both parties agree to the framework, creating an implicit contract that the conversation will follow the established guidelines.

Jefferson Fisher [08:25]: "Can we do that? And as soon as they nod or they say yes… they have this kind of implicit contract."

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5. Addressing Emotional Escalation and Defensiveness

Chrissy shares her anxiety around tough talks, describing the physical manifestation of stress when contemplating serious conversations. Jefferson explains that emotional escalations often stem from a desire to "win" the argument or feeling threatened, leading to a cycle of increasing hostility.

Chrissy Teigen [09:58]: "If someone were to approach me like that, I might melt and die… it's such a scary thought."

Jefferson Fisher [12:10]: "Because you want to win… it's a game of chicken in a way… it just gets louder and louder until it's just a shouting match."

He suggests viewing arguments not as battles to win but as opportunities to "unravel a knot," fostering understanding rather than confrontation.

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6. Navigating Communication with Difficult Individuals

The discussion addresses the challenge of communicating with stubborn or older family members, particularly parents who may not change their conversational habits. Jefferson advises setting boundaries, limiting interactions on contentious topics, and maintaining a neutral stance to diffuse tension.

Jefferson Fisher [22:50]: "Practically you limit your time, you limit your interaction… keep your phrases as neutral as possible."

Chrissy relates this to her relationship with her father, expressing her struggles and seeking strategies to implement Jefferson’s advice effectively.

Chrissy Teigen [25:01]: "He never mad at me… but it's his tone that just sets me off… how do we deal with people like our parents…"

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7. Practical Techniques: Conversational Breaths and Pauses

Jefferson introduces a breathing exercise called the "conversational breath" to help individuals regulate their emotions during heated moments. This technique involves deep, controlled breaths that allow one to pause and choose their responses thoughtfully.

Jefferson Fisher [37:22]: "I call it a conversational breath… inhale through your nose, hold, and exhale longer than you inhale."

He also emphasizes the power of strategic pauses in conversations, using silence to reflect and prevent impulsive reactions. This approach can prompt the other person to reconsider their words and intent.

Jefferson Fisher [35:15]: "Whenever you feel like you need to connect in conversation, there's nothing wrong with using the power of a pause."

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8. Key Takeaways and Final Thoughts

As the episode concludes, Jefferson summarizes the essential strategies for effective communication:

1. Express Different Perspectives Respectfully: Instead of saying "I disagree," use phrases like "I see things differently" to reduce defensiveness.

   Jefferson Fisher [33:56]: "I see things differently, I see things differently. Why doesn't it get people defensive?"

2. Use an Assertive Voice: Replace self-deprecating language with assertive statements to enhance self-esteem and clarity.

   Jefferson Fisher [35:11]: "Use words of gratitude… thank you for your patience."

3. Utilize Pauses and Silence: Implement strategic pauses to allow reflection and discourage impulsive or hurtful responses.

   Jefferson Fisher [35:15]: "Use silence. First of all, I want you to use about five to seven seconds of nothing at all."

Chrissy expresses her realization of how ingrained her communication patterns are and acknowledges the simplicity yet profound impact of Jefferson’s methods.

Chrissy Teigen [32:59]: "You are impacting so many people that really, this is such a foreign topic to… it's so simple."

Jefferson reinforces that effective communication starts with intentionality and self-awareness, promising that adopting these techniques can transform personal and professional relationships.

Jefferson Fisher [28:14]: "It starts with us. Hey, it starts with the next conversation."

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Conclusion

This episode of Self-Conscious serves as a compelling guide for anyone striving to improve their communication skills. Jefferson Fisher’s expert insights, coupled with practical tools like the 3-step script and conversational breaths, provide listeners with the means to navigate tough conversations with grace and effectiveness. By redefining how we approach disagreements and emotional exchanges, the episode empowers individuals to foster deeper connections and lead more harmonious lives.

Chrissy Teigen [34:05]: "It's just such a thoughtful way to live conversations… such a wonderful, brand new concept to me."

Listeners are encouraged to apply these techniques in their daily interactions, embarking on a journey toward healthier, happier, and more productive relationships.

Transcript

[Chrissy Teigen]

All right, everybody, keep your journey going and growing with all the experts on this podcast. From our guest bestsellers and newest releases to their podcasts and Audible originals, hear more from today's leading voices and well being. Go to audible.com chrissyonaudible you're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness, and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier, and more productive life. We all want to be understood, but so often the way we speak gets in the way. What you practiced in your head, those clear, calm, reasonable words gets replaced by a flood of emotion. And instead of clarity, what comes out is frustration, defensiveness, anger, or just silence. The conversation spirals, the connection breaks, and you walk away wondering, why do I always mess this up? If you've ever wanted to be better at having hard conversations, and the good ones too, this episode is for you. Jefferson Fisher is a Texas trial lawyer whose calm, compassionate guidance has helped millions of people speak without spiraling. His new book, the Next Conversation, is like a blueprint for how to communicate with clarity and integrity, even when your emotions are loud. It's not about clever comebacks. It's about compassion, composure. It's about making sure this conversation doesn't cost you the next one. Jefferson Fisher, welcome to Self Conscious. Thank you so much for doing this. This is exciting.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Oh, my goodness.

[John]

Thanks for having me.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You literally know the ins and outs of an argument more than anybody than.

[Jefferson Fisher]

A lot of people. Let's say most. More than most.

[Chrissy Teigen]

More than anybody, really. That's so exciting to me. Is it weird being the expert now? Do people really expect you to just kill every argument ever?

[John]

Yeah. Or any conversation.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Any conversation.

[John]

Yeah. Now it's like, man, I really just.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Put pressure on every conversation I ever have. Every podcast, they're now like, oh, so you're gonna teach us how to, like, talk? I'm like, no, this is your podcast.

[Chrissy Teigen]

No, you tell me, how did you get so interested in wanting to help people have better conversations?

[Jefferson Fisher]

I didn't ever expect any of this, Christy.

[John]

Not once.

[Jefferson Fisher]

I went to be an attorney. And then it wasn't until when I went to start my own law firm after being a partner for almost 10 years that I thought, I'll be on social media. And then I had no clue that the tips that I train my own clients in when I prepare them for cross examination for depositions, that this would turn into what it's been. Not at all. But I can tell you it's been the most fulfilling thing to find when you feel like you're walking in the right path in your mission and your purpose. And it's part of why I sound so calm. Because for the most of the time I am.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I feel like you seem very level headed. You have a John aura about you. Like, John aura. Yeah. Where sometimes people are like, oh, they're gonna break, they're gonna lose it. I'm like, no, I promise. It's not in there.

[John]

A lot of it too.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It's probably for him as well.

[John]

It's very hereditary.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Like my dad's kind of the same way. I'm a fifth generation trial attorney, so we've always known law. And the way you handle conversations is the same way you have to also talk to yourself. So it's not just the communication with other people. There's a whole different side of it. Almost more important is the conversation you have with yourself to make sure that inner dialogue is just, if not stronger.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You're so right. John's dad is exactly the same way. It is hereditary.

[John]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. I think growing up I had to adapt a lot. I moved around a lot. I always had different friends. I also had to be on my toes with my parents. I never knew what kind of mood they were going to be in. So I learned to just become and kind of absorb whatever the room felt like. So it's actually. I probably don't have great conversations and I'm not very argumentative because I can adapt to if that person's upset, I can be upset right there with them. I don't challenge things very often because I don't want that conflict at all. But there are big conversations that are looming that I know I need to have that I just dread.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Did you feel growing up that you could voice things when you needed to.

[John]

Voice them or was it.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It was pretty shut down.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It was not shut down even. There was just nobody cared. It was more like a Indifference. Indifference. In therapy we talk about it. Indifference can sometimes be more painful. Cause you just never knew if what you were feeling was even right. So that's something that I deal with now. There are conversations that I need to have with therapist where I believe that things can be approached in a different way that would benefit me more that I don't have just because I. I hate confrontation of any kind.

[Jefferson Fisher]

The feelings that you have of avoiding confrontation is very typical.

[John]

Especially if you grew up that way.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah, I grew up differently.

[John]

I grew up where what I said.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Was challenged in a way that continue to refine the idea. And so in law school, professors teach on what they call the Socratic method. And so they don't tell you the answer, they would call on a student and then ask you questions that would eventually lead to the answer. And that's how I grew up, and that's how I communicated, learning these ways of asking questions that would lead people to my thoughts and ideas in the conversation. And when you look at the structure.

[John]

Of the book, the reason I call.

[Jefferson Fisher]

It the next conversation was really chrissy that people didn't watch my content in my videos for the last conversation. They watched to figure out how to handle the next conversation. And I wrote it for them because they're the ones who asked for it. And I broke it up in a way that said, all right, first rule number one, you're going to say with control, meaning rather than trying to control the other person, how they spoke to you, how they said this, how they did that, you're going to first control yourself. Because everything else after that is all downhill if you can just control yourself.

[John]

Like we talked about.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Even with John, I'm sure he's somebody who exhibits a lot of control in the midst of chaos.

[John]

Do you find that you have a hard time when you need to have difficult conversations? Do you find that you struggle structuring them? Like, how to begin?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, yeah, definitely. I'm a hider with things. It's hard for me to look people in the eye. And even with acting, if there's been like a set that I've been on where I had to look somebody in the eye and not see, say something real to them. It was always very difficult. But it's also very hard for me to look somebody in the eye and know that something I might say is going to hurt them. Are there strategies around organizing all my chaotic thoughts that go into planning such a conversation? As a lawyer, I'm sure you go in with your team, you know, you've got the whiteboard, you've got a full plan. How do us regular people, when wanting to approach or broach a conversation with somebody that is big and dreadful, where do we start?

[John]

Number one, you want to tell them what the conversation is going to be about. You're not going to start with the small talk, the, hey, so how are you doing?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Like via text, like for a plan.

[John]

Exactly. It could be text in person. Whatever it is, you're going to. You're going to directly talk about what you want to talk About. So it might be, hey, I'd like to talk to you about what you said at dinner last night. Something as easy as that. Just very quickly. Hey, I like to talk about X, Y and Z. What you don't do is begin with, we need to talk. That's the worst thing. You could probably text. So number one is you talk about what you initially want to say, what you need to talk about. Give them the subject. What's the subject? Two, you tell them how the conversation is going to end. Chrissy. That's what you do. You tell them the finish line. You're injecting the goal into the conversation.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Because too often people wait until they're.

[John]

Talking to figure out what they want to say. And that just leads to a whole bunch of problems that leads to things where you're talking on the couch with somebody and they try and cut in. You're like, no, no, no, that's not it. That's not it. It's just like. It's just feel like. And they just. They keep talking. They never lay in the plane. If I can say, hey, I'd like to talk with you about what you said yesterday. And I like to walk away with. Or I like to end the conversation with us feeling like we're on the same page or we better understand each other, or I want you to know why that upset me. You see, I'm already giving you the goal. Or maybe it's just I need to vent. There's nothing for you to do. So I might say, hey, I'd like to talk with you about something you said at dinner last night. And I don't need you to do anything with it. I don't need you to solve it. I just need to express this externally. All right, and then three is you say, you get them to buy into that conversation. So it might be. Sound good that, okay, can we do that? And as soon as they nod or they say yes, and they will, because you've easily defined what the subject is, what you want to talk about. You both know when the conversation is going to be over. And three, they've now have this kind of implicit contract that they're now going to be in the conversation with you and you know where you're going to be going. So that kind of framework is perfect for almost any difficult conversation you can think of, whether it's at home, whether it's at work, whether it's with friends. It's a structure that is going to totally change the way you communicate.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And that's the difference between you being the expert at this and me, because when you were even describing that, my whole chest tightens. It is such an incredibly scary thing for me to think of the end of. If someone were to approach me like that, I might melt and die. I honestly. And it actually upsets me because I need to grow up, basically. No, it's upsetting because I'm like, no, this is like the way that I scramble in my mind when you are giving those directions. It makes me feel like 12 years old again, where I'm like, oh, that's such a scary thought. And I forget that these are real grown adult conversations that people have. I just don't know if it's in me to do it.

[John]

It definitely is. Practice it with John. Let me water it down. Or make it even broader. You don't have to say it. Only in the conflict times. You can practice it in any conversation. So let's say you're at the dinner table or at the kitchen counter with John and you say, hey, I'd like to talk to you about your daughter's schedule for tomorrow. I just want to walk away with making sure we feel like we're on the same page.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, can we.

[John]

Is that. That cool? He's gonna go, yeah. He might say, who are you? He also said he might say, yeah, that's totally cool. But it's an easy way to just the subject what the end is, and then saying. Does that sound good? Because most of the time we really just don't know the goal. We don't know why we're saying it. And it injects anxiety into the conversation because the person on the other end is trying to solve your problem. They might cut in, they might interrupt, and you're like, no, no, no, that's not it. What I'm thinking is. And you don't really. Don't really know.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I think this would be a good experiment with my kids because I know that I could be a little vulnerable and do this with them. I think I would collapse doing. Starting with John because I don't think I've ever said the words out loud. Does that sound good or did you? I can't even fathom it, but I think I can do it with my kids, I think.

[John]

So what does it make you feel?

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's stressful. It's really like a chest tightening stress situation that I. That I.

[John]

That's so funny to me.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I can only connect to, like, childhood and not being able to really speak up.

[John]

And what do you think? Okay, so let's the divergence here of you have no problem. It sounds like just absolutely telling someone down if you need to run them upside and down the other if you're mad at them.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, I can. Exactly. Like I can. Yeah.

[John]

But on the soft side of things, it gives you pause.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, Yeah. I don't want to say there's no thoughtfulness behind it, because that's all I do is think about it. But then it comes out in a way that is too quick and too angry. Even the fights that I've gotten in with my mother, they were always, like, building, building for years to the point where I know how to tackle that stuff better than I do. A simple, like, miscommunication. Where. To the point where I'd rather just let it go and hopefully forget about it eventually.

[John]

You want to know my thought on it?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, absolutely.

[John]

Is when you're having that very extreme. Let's call it an overreaction when you're going to number 11, that's not the real you. And so you're okay putting that on. But when it comes to the soft sides, when it comes to the sensitive, the. In close conversations, that requires the real you. Sometimes it is. It's very hard to meet the real you to say hi to them. And it. That just means you need to have a conversation first with that person.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I'm almost 1000% positive that if I were to say, like, can we have a conversation about this? Halfway through the sentence, I would start shaking and my voice would be shaky and I would start crying. I'm positive.

[John]

I wonder what that is. Well, you can do it. That's the point, is that I know you can. I know you can. And you have a great support network. You already have a partner. You have a helpmate who is all game for that. And so I would encourage you to challenge yourself to start going into it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

So then why do I escalate so quickly in tough conversations? And how can I start noticing when I'm doing it before I've already blown up the room?

[John]

Because you want to win. Yeah, because you want to win. We either want to be competitive with the other person or you have to understand my point. No, my point is the only thing that is right. You cannot be right. Only I can. Or we feel threatened. We feel like, I need you to go away. So I'm going to yell as loud as I can so that you say nothing else. I have yelled at the wild animal to make it run away. I have said the hurtful thing to make it run. I have left so it's really one of those two. I find when you amp up ratcheting up, it's you. It's also kind of a game of chicken in a way. Like you start out at three and they're at a three and then they say something, they kind of raise their voice a little bit. Maybe they're at a six. And then if you match to a six and you match their volume, well, now you've just justified them going to an eight. And then it just gets louder and louder until it's just a shouting match. It's a shouting match because nobody can out yell the other. And I think that sometimes when you get into that mindset, it has such a horrible lasting damage to a relationship. And there's some people that I know, I know, you know, people like this, where they were raised really on conversation, didn't matter unless we were yelling. You know how some people in relationships go, I need you to argue with me. I've heard that plenty of times from others who go, the only way you can show that you care is if you're yelling and we're having a horrible crying conversation. You're saying horrible things. That's the only way. Then it's caring. But when you set out to win an argument, you will often lose the relationship almost every time. Instead of seeing arguments as something to win, you need to see them as something to unravel. Like a knot. Knots happen all the time in conversation. And the harder you tug. If you pull your way and I pull mine, what's that knot do? It gets tighter. It's harder to undo. I have my daughter's shoes that are almost impossible to undo. The cheap shoestring because she's tied it so tight. And we both know of relationships that they haven't talked to their parents in years or they haven't seen that friend in years, because at one point in time it stemmed from one source where they tugged and they tugged and they can't find a way to undo it because that knot has just gotten too tight. And so when you start seeing arguments as something to unravel and you can say, help me understand the knot here, help me untie this. It is a much better way of trying to resolve the argument than just going, nope, you have to go my way.

[Chrissy Teigen]

For those of us with parents that come from a completely different background than having meaningful conversation, like my dad is a voice raiser and his tone can even to this day can send. I can feel it in my spine and in my sides. Sometimes when he raises his voice. And even if he's not mad at me, but he's about a situation or something, I can tell that my body feels it and remembers it because of the way my body feels when he does it. Right now, I find it difficult to not be this way with him and not raise my voice with him because I spent so much of my life being silent with him that now it's almost like a, I'm not going to take this from you anymore. Or it just reaches that level so quickly because I've spent my 40 years of my life not ever having effective communication with him. How do we deal with people like our parents who are so. They're not going to change. The conversation isn't going to be easier on their side. I've lived this life of never speaking up, that now when I do speak up, it comes out the wrong way.

[John]

Why do you think it comes out the wrong way? To who?

[Chrissy Teigen]

To him? I don't want to yell at him. He's 80. Whatever, six years old. I don't want to yell at him and be mad at him.

[John]

So you don't yell?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I don't know if he hears me if I don't.

[John]

Okay, that's hopeful. Why do you think that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Nothing else has worked? And you know what's really weird and it drives me insane is that after he yells and then once I match his yelling, he will immediately calm down and be, I'm not mad. What are you talking about? And then I'm like, am I crazy now? I just raised my voice. And now he's back down to a normal level, even below normal, where it's almost like, is this. Everyone says this now, but is this gaslighting? Now I feel like the crazy person for having just yelled at you because now you've brought it down so many levels. And he has a knack for doing that. And I know that it's gonna happen every time, but I still don't prepare for it.

[John]

Well, yeah, that makes me think of several things. There are definitely those people who intentionally are not Will. Ratchet. Ratchet. Ratchet. And you just happen to be the last one to say something, the last one to have the last word. And all of a sudden, they want to cut your leg out from you and go, why are you yelling? Can you please stop? Oh, my gosh, can you? And they want to make you look like the crazy one. You look like you're the one that's out of control. And you're like, I'm just trying to survive here in this convers and yet they're the one acting like, wow, can you just please. Why are you overreacting? Oh, my gosh. That kind of stuff, intentionally or not, is definitely corrosive to any kind of relationship, especially one where you just want to talk in. Now, I would encourage you, take what I say as a grain of salt, is that when somebody is yelling at you, whenever you match their volume, what you're saying and that moment is, one, you find it threatening. Two, that you assume that when you yell is the only time they're going to listen. And you're training it. Take it with your kids. If I am always yelling, I said it's time to go. Like, I am always ratcheting up, okay? All I'm doing is preparing them. I'm training them. A pattern of. Of what I say doesn't matter until I'm yelling. So that's why they don't move the first two, three times that, you know, I'm talking to them. It's not until I yell, say, get on your shoes, that they do it. So the takeaway here is I want you to be in a comfortable place to understand whenever you are the one that keeps your voice calm. You're the one who stays in control. In fact, what they will do if you continue to talk low is they will come down. Just try it. Because it will signal to them that where they are is way out of place. You can take this even away from your dynamic with your father. Anybody with a friend, somebody is yelling, you know, you take it. Like with John. My guess is he's not a yeller. He's going to talk exactly where he's at. And what happens is you start to calm down because the people who are centered and the people that are grounded, saying, you can talk as crazy as you want, I'm going to be right here. And what it does, gravity just works its way back down to where they will talk to you again and actually match your volume. So I would encourage you in any conversation, whenever you can lower your volume and even do it almost even lower. When somebody's yelling, they realize there's a huge discrepancy and they will start to come to kind of meet that equilibrium. That's what I've found.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What if they are so old and so stubborn and just never will? I guess it's not serving me to be this way.

[John]

No.

[Chrissy Teigen]

So I'll try it.

[John]

They said they're so old, they're never going to change their ways. Okay, maybe. So it's. What do you do? Practically you limit your time, you limit your interaction, you limit the physical space that you're in. So you're going to have a time frame of what's the limit on this? What's the topics I'm willing to talk about and what I'm not willing to talk about. And try to keep your phrases as neutral as possible. That means you're not going to. If they say something that is polarizing, you're not going, that's not true. And you want to take the complete opposite opinion on it. You're just asking for a fight. If you have a neutral response, that's, oh, yeah, well, maybe so. No, I don't know. Oh, yeah, that's interesting. Oh, okay. That's good to know. Like, just is flat. You just be a wet blanket on everything. They can't do anything with it. I hear that a lot with, like, political arguments. People going, how do you deal with politics? I have this grandparent or my parent who always raised and brings this up and all they want to do is talk about politics. I don't know what to do. I always say you just change the conversation about them. If I say, well, I'd rather hear about you. I did that plenty of times with my grandfather. If he's bringing up some crazy opinion that he read from some fake news site or whatever, it's probably some satire site that he read and he wants to bring it up. And I'd say, well, you know what, Papa? I'd rather hear about you. What you doing. And people just kind of perk up because they truly would. They would rather start telling a story about themselves, start talking about them, and at least gets me off the topic of that. But yeah, anytime you can be neutral in your sentences, it's a way of just diffusing the tension.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, my God, you're like a dream human.

[John]

Oh, no, far from it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I know. I'm like, that really is so. I really actually want it. My dad lives in an assisted living place about like 10 minutes from here, and they always want him over, but I'm almost always prepping myself for. He's never mad at me. We're never fighting about something that is that important. It's just like. It's his tone that just sets me off. And I genuinely would like for him to come over so I can try this because I'm wondering if it would work because it's something that I've never tried with him before.

[John]

I also want to give you a different side of it too, if I can. Yeah, let me give you an example. So I'll have hearings sometimes with really old attorneys. Like, they're in their 80s. You can tell this is all they've been doing their whole life. They know they're kind of out of the swing of things. They find it hard to keep up, and they know they're on the downhill slope of life and in their career and everything. And sometimes you have these hearings with them, a simple hearing, a hearing that should be no problem whatsoever, and they get it. And of course, all their stuff's printed out because they don't do anything digital. And in the hearing, they get very animated and they'll start yelling and they'll say things and they'll get worked up and they get flustered. And it's just a big reaction on a very small issue. And the judge will just patiently listen. And I get. I mean, he's listening. They'll say, okay, Mr. Fisher. And then I just go on and do my thing. Then afterwards, after the hearing, the guy who was losing his mind just kind of comes back to normal, and he's kind of like, yeah, that was a good hearing. It is a sense, I think probably more in males of just wanting to feel like they still matter, like they're relevant, like they still can do it. And so I see that a lot with elderly attorneys, that they just want to feel like they can. They had it. They know they had it at one point, but doing this makes them feel, if they can breathe heavy afterwards, of like, okay, I still got it. Like, I still can do things. And the judges are very patient with them. And I always make sure I'm very patient with them because it's nothing personal. They just need to feel it again. So sometimes I hear it in their voice of they just want to sound like something they're saying matters. And when we begin to think of it as just, how could they say that to me? How. When we begin to take it personally, rather than that mindset of, I wonder where this is coming from. I wonder why they're reacting this way. I wonder what's threatening them in this moment. What's the trigger that's getting them so worked up. That's what I also see. And that might be something that's happened on your end.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, there's going to be no way that I'm not going to think about that every single time now, because it really is true.

[John]

What I like to say is the person you see isn't the person you're talking to. I have these witnesses that I cross examine, and I Talk to all the time. And they always put on this front. And I always think the person I see is not the person I'm talking to. It's not an angry witness. It's usually a worried son. It's not an angry witness. It's somebody who doesn't know how they're going to pay rent. There's always a surface and a depth even to the people we love most, Even the people you're married to, the people in your life. There's always a deeper side that if we approach our conversations with a little bit more grace, just a little bit more slow in our life, a little bit more intentionality, I think a lot more positive things can happen.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's really true. And when you approach it with a certain softness, it's so different than the way any of us are approaching things these days. Everything's so harsh and quick.

[John]

It starts with us. Hey, it starts with the next conversation. That's what it starts with. Chrissy.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. So what are some triage techniques then, for resetting a conversation?

[John]

One is you ask for permission to go over it again, which they will most likely give it to you. Two, anytime you need to reset the conversation, it's good to. Or let's put it in terms of. Let's say you need a break in the conversation or you're in a conversation, you can tell you're not. You're not in a good state of mind for it. Number one, what I want you to do is say it and begin with, I can tell. I can tell. Like, I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation. I can tell I'm upset right now. I can tell that's making me defensive. I can tell that I feel upset. I can tell I feel nervous. Whatever it is, you're saying it because I say when you claim it, you control it. So if I can voice how I'm feeling, all of a sudden, that emotion doesn't become me. There's a difference between me acting defensive, going, what are you talking about? Versus me saying, I can tell I'm getting defensive now. I've spoken it and put it out on the table. And now I can say, okay, that's making me defensive right there. I'm not acting on that. Feeling the same way for, like, timing. The worst thing someone can do is try and force their time frame on yours or vice versa. In my household, kids go down at 8:30. Takes about 45 minutes. It depends. If my daughter gets up a few times and we can't, my wife and I can't have a real conversation until after everybody's in. That's just the stage of life where we are. And of course, it turns out that one of us needs to have, like, the most important conversation of the day. This is a level 10 conversation where you have to have a real decision that we're meeting to talk about this. Maybe it's about the house, finances, whatever. And that's also when we have the smallest amount of patience for really anything, the smallest amount of grace that we have left. And. And what I have found to be so helpful and what I teach is, anytime you can say, I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation, I will be so much better if we can talk about this in an hour or once I finish whatever, or tomorrow. Nobody says no to that. Nobody says, no, I need this conversation right now. No, they want to also be engaged. So the point is, don't wait until you have 10% of you for 100% of a conversation. That's always going to set yourself up for failure. When you're not a good conversation partner, you're not a good helpmate in that moment. If you are on 5% battery and they're wanting to really talk it out and you're just going, look, can we just do this later, please? And that's how you're just reacting on that. Instead, say, I can tell I'm not in a good space for this conversation. And that way you're at least communicating. Two, acknowledge that you want to continue to have this conversation instead of shutting it down. Can you please just not? Can you not? That's always going to draw defensiveness and make it to where they go, okay, this is how we typically go, I want to talk with you. You never want to talk. And we're always just walking on eggshells. You need to at least engage the idea that you want to continue to have this conversation. And three, when you can show gratitude. Thank you for bringing this up. I agree this is something we need to talk about. This is not something I can tell I'm ready for right now. So anytime that you can show still, the willingness to talk goes a really long way. They won't feel nearly as dismissed or like you're not listening. When you can acknowledge what they're saying, say, this is something you want to move on to later. You want to address this. Or when somebody's, like, deflecting or they're trying to. Let's say you're in a conversation and all of a sudden the person is, maybe it's a difficult conversation and you're trying to talk with them about something and they bring up, well, what about that time you did X, Y and Z? What about this? What about this? And they're trying to like, penny pinch the conversation. It's much better to say, well, I'd like to talk about that too. And I'm willing to talk about it after we talk about this. So try and go in order if you can.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's just such a thoughtful way to live conversations. My whole life have been so heated, but I've never really known that you can set rules when it comes to being able to communicate better. Because my whole child and my whole life has been so quick and fiery and I never have been very mindful about it. So it's such a wonderful, brand new concept to me.

[John]

That's wonderful.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's really. It's so crazy. It's so simple. You are impacting so many people that really, this is such a foreign topic to. I just think it's really incredible, as simple as it sounds, to have meaningful, good conversations that feel easier and lighter, not to be dreading things that come up so often. I mean, it's really like taken a hold of like my whole life and I didn't really realize it until we began digging through it. So it's just really interesting.

[John]

Well, you're not alone. You're not alone.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Yeah.

[John]

Communication touches everything, every part of us.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It really does.

[John]

Where we've been, where we want to.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Be and where we're going, how we've been spoken to. Absolutely.

[John]

It's all in how we talk to ourselves. It's really all in what we decide to say next.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Let's say there's one big thing somebody can take away from the next conversation. What would you want that thing to be?

[John]

That's a good question.

[Chrissy Teigen]

We've talked about so much and I've taken away so much from this one conversation alone. But yeah, if you could sum it up for somebody.

[John]

1. When you disagree with somebody just on a plain level, in a vacuum, you disagree with them. Instead of saying I disagree, which is only going to get them defensive, I want you to switch it to say, I see things differently, I see things differently. Why doesn't it get people defensive? Because you talk about viewpoint, you're talking about their perspective rather than the point they're trying to make. Whenever you say I disagree, what you're saying is your point is wrong. They'll hardly ever move off of that. But when you say, well, I take another approach or I see things differently or I view it from a different standpoint. They don't take it defensively because they're just saying, I'm not arguing with what you're seeing. I just see something different. And people don't dry out the spikes whenever they do that. Two, I want you to speak with an assertive voice instead of the oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I missed this. I'm so sorry. I just need to say scrap all that. Scrap all the words that are only going to lower your self esteem.

[Jefferson Fisher]

Use words of gratitude, I'm glad you brought that up.

[John]

Or thank you for your patience. Thank you for giving me the time to think on this. I'm grateful for the chance to have this conversation. You're always going to sound more assertive that you're leaning in to your language. And three, anytime that you feel like you need to connect in conversation, there's nothing wrong with using the power of a pause. When somebody says something that's disrespectful or rude to you, use silence. First of all, I want you to use about five to seven seconds of nothing at all and gives them a chance to rethink their words. Next, I want you to ask them the question or ask them to say, I need you to say that again. Can you say that again? I need you to repeat that you're making them double down on their words. And most people aren't willing to do that because it's making them look really bad. And if they do, if they happen to repeat it, you can use a question like, did you mean you begin with? Did you mean, did you mean for that to sound as rude as it does? Did you mean for that to be offensive? Or how do you feel when you say that to me? Or imagine being the person who thinks that's a good idea to say out loud. Anything that you can do to use a question in their mind that is going to flip it to where it's still, you're not responding to what they said. You're making them respond to their intent. Did you say that to embarrass me? Did you say that to offend me? You're just putting a mirror on them. And sometimes the worst and ugliest face someone can see is their own. And that is always going to be something that's going to give you power and confidence and connection in the next conversation.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Jefferson guides us through a simple breathing exercise to help Calm your body and reset your emotions in the heat of the moment.

[John]

Every time somebody disagrees with you, we go into fight or flight mode. I can't throw a punch, but I want to say a hurtful word. I want to say something that's going to cut because I'm trying to make the threat of your conflict get away from me or I might want to run from it. I want to hang up the phone. I want to say, I'm out of here. You know what? I'm over it. And I leave the room. So to regulate yourself before you say anything, I teach that you let your breath be the first word that you say. I call it a conversational breath, because you can use it anytime you're in conversation, and they really don't know that you're doing it. So a conversational breath. Breath takes advantage of what they call a physiological sigh in through your nose, two seconds, one more at the top, and then out through your nose. So you do that typically about five to six seconds when you. So you want to make sure that roughly your exhale is twice as long as your inhale. So it's usually two seconds in, one more at the top, and about five to six seconds out. Now you can get to where you're doing that, and I do it all the time in podcasts and conversations, and you just never know. I want you to start using them right now while you're just talking to me. So I'm just going to talk, and you and I are going to have a normal conversation where I'm going to continue talking and you're just going to be using the breath. So you never know what I'm going to be saying. Maybe I'm saying something really hurtful right now. Maybe I'm saying something that could be biting or want to stress you out, or I'm going to say something that's really going to spike your attention. At the same time, it is you being able to control your breath. Now, do you feel that? It's like being underwater but still being able to breathe because your. Your shoulders are going to relax, you're going to unclench your fists, and you can do it in a way that's not, like, exaggerated, where it is just simply in your nose longer than you think, and it takes advantage of the feeling of a sigh when you're. That same exact feeling, except you're injecting it into the conversation. Now, when do you do that? You do it like I said before, you respond, or when somebody's saying something that you know Is going to be a threat. And the whole point of the breath is to remind your body that this is not threatening to me. This whole person, what they said, it's not a threat to me. It's taken the power back. I'm not giving you any second of my control and power in this conversation. I'm the one that's always going to stay. I'm always going to be the one that has a hold of the steering wheel. And so what I train my clients when I prepare them for cross examination is when they have a difficult question or something that might be threatening in a way that somebody's asking it to let their breath be the first thing that they say. So wherever your first word would be, put a breath in its place. And it allows you to calm yourself, to make sure that I have time to choose. You have choices. Now, do I want to respond to this or not? Is this person worth my time or isn't? Is this something I want to say or is it not something I want to say? You have a total choice. And in that time, even though it's the absence of words, Chrissy, is not the absence of communication. There's such a power in the pause that people are attracted to it. They don't know what you're going to say next. And for people who say ugly things, it works because whenever they say something hurtful, it then puts a whole spotlight on their behavior. They're exposed because you didn't catch it. You didn't grab it and throw it back. You just breathe. A lot of the time when somebody says something ugly, they'll take it back before you have to say anything. They might say, I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said that. Or I mean, what I meant to say was. And they'll adjust it because you're giving time for their words to be an echo, to bounce back. And now they have to understand that it's hurting their credibility the longer you let it sit out there.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Can I be honest with you?

[John]

Please.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You are so good at communicating that it throws me off and makes me nervous.

[John]

Oh, I'm sorry. To me, you're somebody who has such a powerful voice, a heavy hitter, powerful voice, that when you choose to use it, people listen. And so that right there is an ability that people would pray to have. You have to be really careful about when you use it so that when you do talk, people listen. That's what I find is if anybody who has a powerful voice like yours, if they became more choosy of when they talk about it, the more confident you're going to sound. It's like that idea of the person who always has to throw in their two cents to every little thing. People just kind of roll their eyes, but the person who chooses their timing, everybody goes, what? What are they saying?

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah.

[John]

You're an awesome communicator and I love your podcast. Really, you've done, you've done awesome, awesome stuff.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Thank you.

[John]

Please tell John hello for me.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah, I will for sure. I'll tell him I talk to somebody that has a better experience.

[John]

Yeah, no, y definitely not a better singing voice.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Jefferson, I want to thank you for joining me today on Self Conscious. The next conversation by Jefferson Fisher is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible original podcast. Sam.