Chrissy Teigen (2:20)

Really? Well, some schools have like full mood meters.

Dr. Mark Brackett (2:23)

Exactly.

Chrissy Teigen (2:23)

Which I love so much. Like, a kid comes in. If you've ever seen anything like this, it'll be like a little poster on the door. And they walk in and the teacher's like, you want to tell me your mood today? And they point to something, whether it's a face or the actual word itself. And some schools are so open to that.

Dr. Mark Brackett (2:37)

Exactly. And we know from the research that it's helpful.

Chrissy Teigen (2:40)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (2:41)

So there's no doubt that giving kids self awareness, a vocabulary to talk about their feelings, and importantly, strategies to regulate their feelings like that is just. That's a life skill that we all need.

Chrissy Teigen (2:52)

That's so wild. We have said before on the show, I have a really hard time knowing how I feel. Like, I obviously feel feelings, but I have a really difficult time assigning words to my feelings. I even got this feelings app, like my therapist suggested that I get it.

Dr. Mark Brackett (3:08)

And which, by the way, is my app. What?

Chrissy Teigen (3:11)

Stop it.

Dr. Mark Brackett (3:12)

Yes. I co created that. It's called how we Feel.

Chrissy Teigen (3:14)

Yeah, that's so funny. Things pop up on it and sometimes seeing the word helps. But I'm like, what happens to a child when they're younger to not be able to assign feelings to themselves?

Dr. Mark Brackett (3:29)

All right, well, you're a parent of a lot of kids.

Chrissy Teigen (3:31)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (3:31)

What happened when your kids couldn't express themselves clearly?

Chrissy Teigen (3:34)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Dr. Mark Brackett (3:37)

We say you have to name it to tame it. You gotta label it to regulate it. Yeah, it's important. And what my research shows is that most people are just emotionally clueless about what they're feeling. For example, even college students. I teach at a big college, and all my students said, I'm stressed. So I had them journal about why they were stressed. What do you think the number one emotion was? That they were actually feeling overwhelmed. Envious. Oh, number one emotion was envy. Because when they talked about what was causing them stress, what they were saying was, this one has more connections than I do. This one studies for less hours than I do. This one's got a better body.

Chrissy Teigen (4:16)

I had to work ten times harder to.

Dr. Mark Brackett (4:18)

Yeah, it was all social comparison. And so the reason why that's important is they're going for help. And the strategies that will help you manage your emotions will vary based on the feeling. If you're anxious, it's because you're feeling like the future is uncertain. That's why we get anxious when we're stressed. It's because we got too many demands and we can't get it all done. We just got no resources. When we're envious, we're making endless social comparisons. And so thinking about you as a parent with your kids, imagine if they had that vocabulary and you were really clear about how they were feeling. It helps you guide them in terms of what to do about it.

Chrissy Teigen (4:54)

Yeah. There's more answers for why you could possibly be feeling envious than there is to just like, I'm exhausted or I'm tired or I'm stressed out. What are some of the words that you hear the most, that you can find deeper meaning towards what are just some of the easiest words that people throw up.

Dr. Mark Brackett (5:10)

Most people have a terrible vocabulary. So how are you feeling? Fine. Good. Meh. Okay. That doesn't mean anything. And then also the buzzwords like anxiety and stress, they're not that clear anymore for people because there's anxiety, there's stress, there's fear, there's overwhelm, there's worry, and all these things are actually different.

Chrissy Teigen (5:30)

It's interesting to be able to talk about this with young people because it's not thought about as a course study mainly, like, it's not this podcast.

Dr. Mark Brackett (5:38)

We're going to make that happen.

Chrissy Teigen (5:39)

Absolutely. People oftentimes talk about those courses we needed in high school, whether it was learning about credit cards or how to manage a home. This. I feel like it's so important to start so young, and they really are starting young, at least with my kids and schools. But you were talking earlier about pushback. What else are they telling you in schools? What's the reasoning?

Dr. Mark Brackett (6:00)

It's like trying. It's like therapy. If I have a bad day and I call my brother and say, hey, Dave, what do you think? He's not like, I can't talk to you about this. Go for therapy.

Chrissy Teigen (6:10)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (6:11)

Life and school in particular. If we're talking about kids, you drop them off at school, they're in someone else's hands. They're going into math, science, language arts, and they have to deal with lunch, and they have physical ed and art and whatever else, and they're having feelings all day long. And the question is, can they identify those feelings? And what if they get left out at lunch? Is it, oh, just figure it out. Makes no sense. Kids deserve to be safe in school, psychologically and physically. And if we can help them feel comfortable saying, I'm uncomfortable right now, or I'm feeling unsafe right now, or I need support. That's a real life skill.

Chrissy Teigen (6:45)

You talk about emotions as data, not drama. What does that look like in real life?

Dr. Mark Brackett (6:51)

Well, the way I think about it is that everybody should care about emotions for five big reasons. The first is emotions drive our attention. Think about it. How you feel is where you pay your attention. The second, emotions drive our decision making. I know people don't like to hear that. People like to think they're rational creatures, but let's be real. How we feel influences our judgments.

Chrissy Teigen (7:13)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (7:14)

The third is relationships. If I were here with you right now, I'm doing this kind of facial expression. This is a disgust face. Really? What does that make you feel?

Chrissy Teigen (7:23)

Immediately I'm doing something wrong and I said something wrong?

Dr. Mark Brackett (7:25)

Yeah, or like this guy's got a problem, like power issues. Disgusted.

Chrissy Teigen (7:29)

By the way, that was not a good disgust face. Maybe I see a lot more disgusted faces.

Dr. Mark Brackett (7:34)

I was being gentle. I don't want to scare you. So how I express my emotions. How you express your emotions drives us to approach or avoid people. That's the relationship piece. The fourth is our mental and physical health, something I call our emotion regulation budget. It means the quality of your sleep, the nutrition that you eat, and it means your physical activity. In writing my book, I learned that they're all contributing to our healthy regulation. As a matter of fact, with parents, I do a lot of interviews and they say, I want to be my best self. And I'm trying to be that kind, loving, caring person, but it's not working. And I say, well, tell me about your lifestyle. And nine times out of ten they have terrible sleep and so their fuse is so short in the morning that they can't even access their best self. And I think that's the beauty of the work in terms of what I've written about around emotion regulation is that there's all these areas. There's our mindsets and beliefs, there's the language, there's the breathing and mindfulness work, there's the self talk that we have to work on, there's that relationship piece we have to work on. And then there's that biology piece of our sleep and our nutrition and our activity. And then finally I talk to executives about this. I say, where on your calendars that say wellbeing? If you looked at my calendar, I have 15 minute blocks to go take that walk or 10 minute block to just be still. I try to schedule meetings that are only 15 minutes, not an hour. I try to have a lunch that I actually eat as opposed to zoom talking and meeting at the same time. And I schedule time on the weekends to do things I love. I live in the country and I have a land trust next to my house. Someone said, well, what do you love to do? I said, I love hiking. And they said, well, how many hikes did you take last year? I'm like two. Yeah.

Chrissy Teigen (9:21)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (9:21)

I mean it's ridiculous.

Chrissy Teigen (9:22)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (9:22)

But if it's not on my calendar because of my lifestyle, I don't do it. So I urge people to find the time to create the space for well being.

Chrissy Teigen (9:32)

And you know what does suck about those? For example, execs that don't take the time for wellness or well being is they see their success as something they've achieved without that. So when they look for employees, it's not necessarily something they think is deserved among their employees either because they made it so far without having any of that. So it just trickles down to just not being right.

Dr. Mark Brackett (9:57)

I challenge them on that because it's how we define success. Do we want an employee who only busts their ass to to do well for you, or do we want someone who has well being? Yeah, I think it can be both.

Chrissy Teigen (10:13)

Happier people translate to happier employees. That's always that too. You created something called the RULER framework. What does it stand for and how can we use it right now?

Dr. Mark Brackett (10:27)

We're using it right now. Which is unknown.

Chrissy Teigen (10:29)

Hell yeah. Done.

Dr. Mark Brackett (10:31)

So RULER is an acronym for the five skills of emotional intelligence. The first R stands for recognizing emotions in oneself and others. So I'm looking at your facial expressions, your body language, I'm listening to your vocal tone, watching your behavior, and I'm trying to make the best guess at how you're feeling. Because I'll never really know unless I ask you how you're feeling. And for myself, it's self awareness. It's what am I? What's my heart rate right now? What's my body temperature? What are the thoughts that are going through my head? That's all recognition. The you is understanding emotion, Understanding the causes and the consequences of emotion. Can I test you on this?

Chrissy Teigen (11:06)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (11:07)

What is the cycle between anger and disappointment?

Chrissy Teigen (11:13)

A physical feeling.

Dr. Mark Brackett (11:14)

It's tough, right? We're not taught how to distinguish these emotions. So we feel disappointment when we have an unmet expectation. Everything is legit. It just didn't work out. We get angry when we perceive whatever happened as an injustice or unfair. So anger is about injustice. Disappointment is about unmet expectations. That's the kind of stuff we want people to learn. Because think about it as a mom. Your kid may come home and say, I hate you and I hate school. What do you think the kid is feeling when they say I hate you?

Chrissy Teigen (11:43)

Anger, Right?

Dr. Mark Brackett (11:45)

Exactly. But it could be anything. Yeah, we don't know. Because kids are taught to behave a certain way to get attention. It could be anger, it could be disappointment, it could be shame. Boys nowadays are taught to mask any of these kind of feminine emotions. We need to get to know people and understand where their feelings are coming from. Otherwise we can't label them properly, which is the L of ruler having that precise language. We were talking about anxiety versus stress and fear and overwhelm. They're differences and they're important. That's the R U L of ruler. R U L of ruler is all about my self awareness and my social awareness. How am I feeling? How are you feeling? Getting really accurate at that. The E and the R of ruler is about expressing emotions. So knowing how and when to express emotions with different people across context and even culture. So the rules for expressing emotion are even different here than they are in Connecticut. There's slight differences. You go to other countries, completely different.

Chrissy Teigen (12:44)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (12:44)

And then the R, the last R ruler is regulating. What are those emotion regulation strategies that we can use to help ourselves manage emotions? And I think a big deal that we don't talk enough about is co regulation. How am I emotionally supportive to my partner, to my kids, to my friends and family and co workers? And so that's the ruler framework. Most recently I focused on that last R. So what happened? Just briefly, the pandemic hit and my mother in law, who is from Panama, my husband is Panamanian and she came up for a wedding. My close friend got married on March 7th of 2020. Wow.

Chrissy Teigen (13:24)

Didn't everything start April?

Dr. Mark Brackett (13:25)

Everything started March 13th. So Irene, who I love and I speak Spanish, flew in around the 5th of March to go to this wedding. We thought she was going home around the 15th or 20th.

Chrissy Teigen (13:35)

Oh my God.

Dr. Mark Brackett (13:37)

So guess how long she stayed with us? Six months, seven months. No flights to Panama. Wow. Long story short is we got into a huge fight one night and she looked at me and she goes, are you really the director of the center for Emotional Intelligence? And I just looked at him like, not tonight, honey, not tonight. And like the whole house, everybody, everything blew up. You know, the dogs peed on the rug. It was just like everybody was like freaking out. But I realized that I was the director of the Friedrich center for Emotions, like Mark Regulate.

Chrissy Teigen (14:09)

That's such a funny thing to bring up. Like on the airplane when someone's freaking out, like, were you the fucking director of Emotional Intelligence?

Dr. Mark Brackett (14:15)

And you're like, yeah, exactly. Actually I am. And you need to take a deep breath. Anyhow, in that moment I realized I sucked at regulating. And then I started to do research with thousands of people and I found out that 90% of people reported never having learned anything about healthy emotion regulation. That's crazy. And so that's why I decided to write another book to help people learn the strategies.

Chrissy Teigen (14:38)

Would you say that anybody in therapy is doing that kind of work? For sure, in a little bit, yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (14:43)

But that's a very limited number of people who have access to therapy. And I'm a preventionist. So my goal is to get less people to have to go for therapy. Give you an example. I gave a speech at the American Psychiatric association, thousands of child psychiatrists, and they came up to me after my talk and they said, you know, Mark, great talk, you know, you're a good presenter, but, you know, we need 10,000 more child psychiatrists. Given all the challenges in the world. I said, I don't think you were listening. My job is to put you out of business. Like, that's my goal is to like, teach kids the skills they need so that we have less anxiety, less depression, less loneliness.

Chrissy Teigen (15:20)

That's interesting. I've never heard of it that way because I live in Los Angeles and we are pushed everything under the sun at all times. But yeah, you hear more about people's needs to go to therapy than for people's need to learn the skills.

Dr. Mark Brackett (15:34)

Exactly. And just, I mean, the cost benefit analysis alone, I mean, it's so much more cost effective to teach people skills than to have to deal with the anxiety depression epidemic.

Chrissy Teigen (15:44)

In your class, do you talk culturally how things can be so different growing up in an Asian household where the levels of communication were just absolutely zero and you were told never discuss anything else. It was heartbreaking for the family and a shame. And this that you discuss that.

Dr. Mark Brackett (16:01)

Of course we do.

Chrissy Teigen (16:02)

Wow.

Dr. Mark Brackett (16:02)

And that's where I need to get curious about your life, because your culture is embedded into your emotional life. And so if I just assume that you're like me, you know, some dude from New Jersey who grew up in a white Irish Catholic neighborhood, like, I'm gonna make a lot more mistakes.

Chrissy Teigen (16:18)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's hard because my dad, this big Norwegian German dude, very stubborn, hard headed. And then my mother from Thailand, very soft, but gets very angry, but could never show it. Things just lived inside of her forever. She was the kind of person that just never forget or forgive. It made me a person that was more communicative about my emotions because I saw these two people that were so bad at articulating their feelings to one another that I promised myself, John is never not gonna know how I feel. And that can be good or bad or frustrating. It can be hard.

Dr. Mark Brackett (17:01)

Science and art to communicating there is.

Chrissy Teigen (17:03)

Absolutely. So if someone is completely flooded with emotion, what do you think is the first step they can take to just take a step back and do it in a better way?

Dr. Mark Brackett (17:14)

The first step is just to find a way to deactivate and they take that breath. But sometimes the breath is not enough. I have some really good strategies that I love. I have go to strategies for when I'm angry. And there are self talk strategies. There's a really cool technique in psychology. It's called psychological distancing. What that means is that you don't say I, I, I, I. You say your name Mark. Take the high road, Mark. You got this, Mark. You got bigger fish to fry. This is not that important to you, Mark. How much is this gonna matter to you in a week from now? And if you like throw out those phrases but you say your name while you're doing it, it actually lowers the temperature and it helps you rethink it and in general will prevent you from doing or saying the thing that you're gonna regret.

Chrissy Teigen (17:58)

We have a street here. Benedict Canyon. My arch nemesis. I find myself that when I'm driving, I'm like, who is this person? I was just talking to my friends about it because they were joking. They were like, I'll never understand people that are driving that can like be mad at something for like an hour. I was like, I can. Like, sometimes something will happen to me on the road and I will fully come home, make dinner, and I'll still be thinking about it. I cannot get over certain little. And I'm like, is this because I have to let so much go in my life and have to get over so much that maybe, like, I need something to hold onto? But who is this person? What should I do? Somebody cuts me off, or you get literally the finger. Or someone is doing something that is obviously wrong to do, whether it's making a new lane and thinking they're the only person on earth. I hate selfish drivers. I hate that kind of stuff. So when it happens, I find my chest gets red. It's like a real thing for me. Whereas so many other things are not a thing for me. What can I do in moments like that? Like, is there something I can do to laugh this off? Or something like, because right now my go to is to be like, okay, maybe that was my dad driving. How would I want to speak to my father if he were driving like that? Are there other things that I could do?

Dr. Mark Brackett (19:22)

That works, though. Keep saying it.

Chrissy Teigen (19:24)

Okay. Okay. Yeah, I try.

Dr. Mark Brackett (19:26)

But I would recommend the reappraisal work. Reappraisal, or, you know, more commonly known refrain framing. It's like, could I tell myself a different story about this?

Chrissy Teigen (19:34)

Yes. Oh, that's what I always have to do. Yes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (19:37)

And it works.

Chrissy Teigen (19:37)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (19:38)

And so, you know, they must have something really pressing going on for Me, what I love to do, because I have made it like it's my new thing in life, is not to get activated in ways that are unnecessary. So I go back to that best self piece and I say, what would the center director do in this moment? Let it go. This is not worth my brain space. I do a lot of that. Like, I got more important things to think about.

Chrissy Teigen (20:01)

Yeah. My friends and I joked about. I don't feel like this is much of a New York thing, But Rage Rooms, L.A. loves a rage room. They're all up and down Melrose. They basically, like, charge you for giving you some goggles and buying a ton of shit from the swap meet or the dump. It's like televisions. And if you get lucky, there'll be a car in there, lots of light bulbs and plates. You go in with your friends and it's kind of like LA's new escape room. We're so full of escape rooms, but now we have rage rooms. And you take a bat or whatever and you just go to town on everything for like a half an hour. And people come out of it feeling very good, from what I've heard. I haven't done it yet, but I've seen it because it's such a reality TV show thing right now. They make it feel.

Dr. Mark Brackett (20:48)

I'd rather people go to the gym. I'd rather take a hike, I'd rather cook, I'd rather go for a walk. I'd rather do something fun on the beach.

Chrissy Teigen (20:55)

Yeah. It also makes me feel like maybe we shouldn't be looking towards that kind of violence. Like maybe that's not the way we want to process anger is through, like, beating the shit out of something. Exactly.

Dr. Mark Brackett (21:05)

Just don't know why, you know?

Chrissy Teigen (21:06)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (21:07)

What happens when the rage room is closed?

Chrissy Teigen (21:09)

I know you write that emotions are contagious, which I completely agree with, by the way. How do we keep from catching somebody else's stress or bad mood?

Dr. Mark Brackett (21:20)

Yeah, it's tough because, you know, especially in family life, the power dynamics, if mommy comes home or daddy comes home stressed, you know, the whole family is stressed. So you're out with the road rage, and you're about to come back home and you open the door to your house and you take a breath and you're like, how does mommy want to be seen tonight? And if you take that moment to do that, there'll be less negative contagion. Because contagion is also for pleasant and positive emotions. I think you'd rather have contagious love and presence in your House. With that said, being aware of your emotions is really important. One of the other things that we teach people that I think is really fun is so the mood meter we've been talking about. Well, imagine this. You've had road rage, and you're irate about that. But before you walk into your next meeting in a business or with your husband or kids, you just take a breath and you say, how am I feeling right now? I'm pissed. Why are you pissed? Because the freaking drivers are driving me out of my mind. But when you attribute your feeling to its real cause, it will no longer have that influence in the future, that's pretty powerful. So just by pausing to name the feeling and remember why you're having the feeling, because then when your kid is like, mommy, Mommy, mommy, you're gonna be in a worse mood. But if you can compartmentalize and, like, separate. That we know from the research actually helps a lot.

Chrissy Teigen (22:43)

It has helped to be able to think that, like, oh, my God, I'm probably reacting this way because I so often don't get to be angry. I don't have that space to, like, just get mad and unload and unleash. And honestly, John doesn't do enough for me to even, like, yell at him about anything. So I don't have that. I either need, like, a worse husband or. So say somebody out there starts with zero. Yeah, started at zero, which would be me. Honestly, how long would you say it would take somebody to get to that place where they feel like they have grown into somebody with emotional stability, emotional intelligence?

Dr. Mark Brackett (23:24)

It's a great question. And I think most people are ground zero because we didn't have this education. So nobody should feel bad about themselves because nobody got this training. I grew up in a family where my mom had terrible, terrible anxiety. And I would come home after being bullied, and I'd be like, mom, I don't want to go to school. I'm feeling. Don't tell me all the details. I can't handle it.

Chrissy Teigen (23:43)

Oh, wow.

Dr. Mark Brackett (23:44)

She would have a breakdown from my feelings. I'm like, wait a minute. I'm the one having a breakdown here. And my father was kind of a tough guy. He'd say, like, son, you gotta toughen up. When I was in middle school, he said to me, son, I used to beat kids up like you. Wow, dad, maybe you should go for some emotional intelligence.

Chrissy Teigen (24:00)

Are they still around?

Dr. Mark Brackett (24:01)

They both passed, and they both were very proud of my work and actually got better because of my work. But, I mean, they didn't Know, you know, my father wanted me to be a tough guy. I have a fifth degree black belt, but I'm still not a tough guy.

Chrissy Teigen (24:17)

Mentally tough.

Dr. Mark Brackett (24:18)

Yes. There you go.

Chrissy Teigen (24:19)

I always love to see like where people come from with their childhoods and their parents because we are so often taught to give them so much grace because of the way they were raised. And sometimes I feel like that's so unfair.

Dr. Mark Brackett (24:30)

Yeah. I mean, everybody could have done better.

Chrissy Teigen (24:33)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (24:33)

They didn't have an emotion. Education doesn't matter. You can still have done better.

Chrissy Teigen (24:37)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (24:38)

I'll just give you the chapters because I think it's the process A. We have to just have a different mindset about feelings. There's no such thing as as a bad emotion. Can you accept that?

Chrissy Teigen (24:49)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (24:50)

Great. So you've already gained emotional intelligence. Thank God there's no bad emotion.

Chrissy Teigen (24:54)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (24:55)

Emotions are data. Emotions are information. If I'm angry because of an injustice, just because I'm angry doesn't mean I have to go to the rage room and beat up people or objects. The attitude piece is really important. The second is you gotta build your language skills. And you've been doing that. You got the app, really helpful. Just build your vocabulary, be more self aware. Then you have to learn how to just be still, which is hard today. Those breathing exercises just to lower the temperature are really helpful. You're overwhelmed. Just take a few deep breaths. It does reset your body and your mind. Then we have to work on our self talk.

Chrissy Teigen (25:32)

I bet you do.

Dr. Mark Brackett (25:35)

Yeah, I know. And I have the same problem. It's funny, the other day I'm working out and I made this commitment. I wrote a whole chapter in my book on cognitive regulation skills and positive self talk and reappraisal, all these things. And I'm doing my crunches and I'm looking at my body. I'm like, you are never gonna have a six pack. And I'm like, you just wrote a chapter about it's amazing how the self saboteur is always around. Now I believe that most of our negative self talk comes from gaslighting. Most of us. We're taught to think certain things about ourselves because of what other people said about us. You're too fat, too skinny, too tall, too short. You're too dark. You're too light. You're too masculine or too feminine. Nobody teaches us anything about self regulation or how to sift through that stuff and then we start believing it. But one of the most helpful strategies is around social support. So I've really been interested in this because My first book is called Permission to Feel, and it was a story about my childhood and the science about this uncle of mine who was my Uncle Marvin, who just helped me get out of my traumatic childhood. Not by doing anything other than being your dad's brother. My mom's brother.

Chrissy Teigen (26:46)

Okay.

Dr. Mark Brackett (26:46)

He was a middle school teacher by day and a trumpet player at night. A really creative, amazing human being. My whole career is dedicated to him because he saw me and created the conditions for me to thrive. Now I have been on this journey to find out how many people have an Uncle Marvin or an Aunt Maria. How many people have that one person in their childhood that creates the conditions for them to be that true self? What percentage of people do you think say yes?

Chrissy Teigen (27:16)

Oh, my God. I know. I personally don't have an Uncle Marvin?

Dr. Mark Brackett (27:21)

20%, depending on where you are. The average is 30%, 35%, but that means 65 to 70% of the adults walking around this world right now did not feel they had anyone to talk to about their feelings growing up. So I've taken the research a step further, and I asked thousands upon thousands of people, tell me the characteristics of these people. If you had one, what were the characteristics? And if you did, did it be parents?

Chrissy Teigen (27:47)

Or was it. Would it always be a parent outside?

Dr. Mark Brackett (27:49)

Actually, so of the 35%, this is interesting research. Half of them say it was their mom, only 2% say it was their dad.

Chrissy Teigen (27:57)

Yikes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (27:59)

The rest is kind of, you know, somebody else. The characteristics, though, no matter where I've gone across the world to do this research, there are three primary characteristics of the people who give us permission to feel. First, non judgmental. Second, good listener. Third, shows empathy and compassion. That's it. Now, the reason why I think that's so important is that in the thousands of people that I've studied, no one says smart, no one says problem solver, no one says fixer. And that tells me that what we want in life is safety and trust. Safety and trust is what we're all looking for. And this, by the way, applies to the workforce as well. I've done this study not with parents and kids, but with people in the workforce. How would you describe the emotional ally at work? Non judgmental, good listener, who shows empathy and compassion? I do a lot of parent work in teaching parents the skills of emotional intelligence. As a matter of fact, I just did one yesterday and I was meeting with hundreds of parents in Colorado. I said, what gets in the way of you being this person for your child? Yeah, fear. People say, I'm Afraid. I'm actually afraid.

Chrissy Teigen (29:12)

Yeah. What's the fear?

Dr. Mark Brackett (29:13)

That they're going to actually learn how their kid really feels and they're not going to know what to do about it. Guess what? The other one is time. I don't have the time to be this person for my own child. I think we need to make changes.

Chrissy Teigen (29:25)

Yeah. God, what a wonderful thing to be somebody's Uncle Marvin.

Dr. Mark Brackett (29:30)

You're not kidding.

Chrissy Teigen (29:32)

What an honor. That would be like if I were on my deathbed and someone looked at me and said, you were that person. That's so incredible. And I think it's better if it's not your parent.

Dr. Mark Brackett (29:40)

One of my favorite stories is I got a letter from a 94 year old man who had read my work and he said, I just want to let you know that I read your work. And I feel like I would have been a better husband, a better parent had I learned about this growing up. And he just wanted to thank me at 94 for finally giving him talking about, can you learn this stuff? He's like, I now can be a different person starting today at 94.

Chrissy Teigen (30:06)

Wow.

Dr. Mark Brackett (30:06)

And I wrote him back and I said, thank you for taking the time to write me. And I said, I just feel so gratified that I was able to support you and help you in any way. And he writes me back and guess what he says? He says, no more. Thank you for being my Uncle Marvin.

Chrissy Teigen (30:22)

Oh, God.

Dr. Mark Brackett (30:25)

All right.

Chrissy Teigen (30:25)

Oh, that's everything, man. I love too that people still feel like, I personally, I have an older father and he stopped looking to change probably like 20 years ago, you know, it just was never gonna happen for him. But how beautiful that somebody still wanted that. And I, I don't feel like I gave people permission to be my Uncle Marvin. Like I wasn't open enough.

Dr. Mark Brackett (30:52)

It's not, that's the thing, though. It's not your responsibility.

Chrissy Teigen (30:54)

Yeah. Okay.

Dr. Mark Brackett (30:56)

It's the adults have to figure this out and create and be that first person for that. What's interesting. So going back to this Uncle Marvin thing, one of my closest friends came with me to one of my speeches. It was in New York City and he's in town and I'm like, you never heard me speak. Come on. It's a big, you know, it's at the Hilton. And so he comes to hear me speak and at the end he's like, I hated your presentation. I'm like, you hated my presentation? He's like, because I didn't have an Uncle Marvin, now I realize that's why I'm not right. And now I realize why I don't have like, life satisfaction.

Chrissy Teigen (31:28)

You have some buddies.

Dr. Mark Brackett (31:29)

Well, you just stole the line. So I said to him, and he got really upset. He's like, maybe that's why I'm not that clear about what I want to be in my life. Because my research shows that if you have the Uncle Marvin, you have greater purpose and meaning, greater life satisfaction. You're healthier physically, mentally, sleep better at night. I mean, really important things about your life. And so I said, at some point, you got to be your own Uncle Marvin. You got to look in the mirror and be non judgmental, listen to your heart and give yourself some self compassion. But here's something else that's really powerful. This happened as a wake up call to me. So I'm giving a speech, I do a lot of public speaking and I'm in Westchester, New York, and I'm giving a speech to superintendents of schools. And I'm telling the Uncle Marvin story. And this one superintendent jumps out of his seat. He's like, you're talking about Marvin Moore, the sixth grade social studies teacher from Montasal, New York. I'm like, I am. He's like, mark, you're not gonna believe this, but your uncle Marvin was my Uncle Marvin. Oh. I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, your uncle was my sixth grade teacher 45 years ago, and he's the reason why I'm in education. So I said, like, I gotta finish my speech, but can you stay after and I can interview you? This guy blew my mind. What he remembered about my uncle, my uncle's facial expressions, the way he spoke, the way he taught, everything. This guy looked at me and he goes, it's pretty clear the profound influence your uncle has had in your life and your career. I said, 100%. And then he said to me, so, Mark, for whom are you and uncle Marvin? And it was really eye opening for me about paying it forward.

Chrissy Teigen (33:03)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (33:04)

And so what the research shows is that when we are that Uncle Marvin for someone, when we show up with non judgment, good listening skill and empathy and compassion, we can see how it impacts people. We feel it. And by doing that for someone else, you actually benefit. And here's something even greater. When you do it in a family and everybody observes it, they benefit too. So there's a lot of benefits to being an Uncle Marvin.

Chrissy Teigen (33:48)

And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Mark shares his meta Moment process for self regulation.

Dr. Mark Brackett (34:02)

I thought it would be fun to take you through the whole meta moment process. Okay, you ready?

Chrissy Teigen (34:06)

Yeah.

Dr. Mark Brackett (34:06)

Okay, now this is going to be a little tough. Okay, Chrissy, I'd love for you to think about a time in the last week or two where your worst self came out. Maybe you said something or did something that you're like, ugh, I shouldn't have done that. Can you think of one?

Chrissy Teigen (34:21)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (34:22)

Okay. Always. Well, the beauty of this meta moment technique is that you can make a new movie. So I'm going to ask you now to think about that experience and I'm gonna ask you to really just go back to how you responded and what it felt like. You don't have to share any of this. Okay. Step one is you gotta be aware that you're having the feeling, you feel the tension. You start getting those angry thoughts and that's a signal to not react, but to stop and pause and take that breath. But the unique piece of the meta moment is something we call seeing your best self. So I'm gonna push you on this now.

Chrissy Teigen (34:59)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (34:59)

Are you ready? Yeah. Okay. I want you to take a moment and think about Chrissy, the mom who is the absolute best version of herself. And I want you to give me three adjectives that you would use to describe that mom.

Chrissy Teigen (35:20)

Creative.

Dr. Mark Brackett (35:21)

Okay.

Chrissy Teigen (35:21)

Present. Fun.

Dr. Mark Brackett (35:24)

Nice. You want, you want to add another one.

Chrissy Teigen (35:28)

Loving.

Dr. Mark Brackett (35:29)

Love it. So repeat those. Creative.

Chrissy Teigen (35:31)

Creative. Fun. Loving. Present.

Dr. Mark Brackett (35:34)

Nice. So imagine the next time one of your kids is triggered or triggering you, you're activated. You're like, I want to ring a shout. I'm the winner, I'm the mother. It's my show, it's my house. You take a breath and you say, no, Chrissy, you are creative, you are fun, you are present, you are loving. I promise you, you'll respond in a different way. Okay, now I'm going to ask you to take a deep breath. And now I'm going to ask you to activate that best self of yours, that fun, creative, loving, present mom. Can you bring that person into your being? Just think about Chrissy with those characteristics?

Chrissy Teigen (36:16)

Yes.

Dr. Mark Brackett (36:16)

Now, through that lens, can you think of another way you could have responded? Yes, that's it. I mean, I think it's so powerful to be able to go through a process proactively. So the next time that you get activated in a similar or different situation, instead of going automatic, you take that breath, you think about your best self and then through that lens, you respond. I promise you it will make a difference.

Chrissy Teigen (36:42)

That's great. It's such a good form of training because once you see it work, you're kind of like, so blown away by the fact that it worked. This is all I gotta do now. I actually can't wait for the next time that it happens, because I know it'll happen soon. But what is a meta emotion?

Dr. Mark Brackett (37:00)

Put simply, it's our feelings about our feelings. So I'll give you an example. When I was a kid, I've been bullied a lot. And I felt shame, I felt fear. And the question I've always had for myself is, why didn't I share that, that fear that was happening? And it's because I was embarrassed. I was embarrassed that I was afraid of the bullies. And so you see, you have feelings about feelings. We all have those feelings. I'll give you something strange even, too. As I was writing my book, I started thinking about my relationship with happiness. And I realized it was way more complicated than I thought, that I'm actually uncomfortable being happy. Sometimes when I get applause at a presentation, I feel it and I get a little uncomfortable and I try to unpack why. And I realize it was because as a kid who had this bullying problem, if I had a day that I was in a great mood, someone would say, oh, I'm gonna knock it out of you. And so there's like this fear of actually being with the happiness.

Chrissy Teigen (38:00)

Yeah. Cause it's only gonna be taken away.

Dr. Mark Brackett (38:02)

And so we have to learn not only to regulate our feelings, but we have to learn how to regulate our feelings about our feelings.

Chrissy Teigen (38:09)

Thank you so much for being here in my bedroom today, getting to talk about feelings and emotions with you, and getting to also connect it to and how we can all, in our own ways, be Uncle Marvin. I loved learning from you, so thank you so much.

Dr. Mark Brackett (38:26)

I love speaking with you.

Chrissy Teigen (38:35)

Marc. I want to thank you for joining me today on Self Conscious. Marc Brackett's Dealing with Feeling is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible, Q Code and Huntley Productions, hosted by Chrissy Teigen. Written and executive produced by Jimmy Jelinek. Executive producers for Q Code, Shen Yan Hu and Alexa Gabrielle Ramirez, Executive producer for Huntley Productions, Chrissy Teigen, executive producer for Audible, Stacey Creamer. Recorded and engineered by Ben Milchev. Filmed by Bridger Clements production coordinator Brian Coulter. Edited, mixed and mastered by Ben Milchev, head of creative development at Audible, Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Gyazza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC. Sound Recording Copyright 2025 by Audible Original.

Dr. Mark Brackett (39:38)

Sam.