Matt Ritter and Aaron Karo: Strategies for Male Friendship (With John Legend)

Summary

Self-Conscious with Chrissy Teigen

Episode: Matt Ritter and Aaron Karo: Strategies for Male Friendship (With John Legend)

Date: October 23, 2025
Featured Guests: Matt Ritter, Aaron Caro, John Legend
Host: Chrissy Teigen

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Episode Overview

In this candid and compelling episode, Chrissy Teigen explores the complexities and challenges of male friendship, highlighting why cultivating strong connections is crucial for men’s well-being—and by extension, for the health of their relationships. Joined by Matt Ritter and Aaron Caro—hosts of the "Man of the Year" friendship podcast and authors of the Audible Original, "The Buddy System"—as well as her husband John Legend, Chrissy dives into the traditions, barriers, misconceptions, and the importance of intentional male bonding. The discussion is rich with practical advice, honest reflections, and memorable moments on how men (and their partners) can foster lasting, meaningful friendships.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Loneliness Crisis Among Men

[00:03–04:13]

• Chrissy’s Opening: Sets the stage by addressing how many men’s “friendships” are superficial, leading to loneliness—a serious risk factor for depression and even early death.
  • “Maybe he has a poker night once a year, but let’s be real. He doesn’t have anyone he can call when he's sad…” (Chrissy, 00:23)
• Research Highlight: 15% of men have zero close friends; loneliness is an increasing societal problem.
• John’s Perspective: Acknowledges the growing cultural conversation about men’s isolation.

2. Friendship Rituals, Traditions, and the "Buddy System"

[04:13–06:05]

• Matt & Aaron’s Tradition: Annual dinner at Peter Luger’s with their core friend group, culminating in a humorous but bonding “Man of the Year” award.
  • “We know where we're gonna be 50 years from now, if we're alive.” (Matt, 04:04)
• Importance of Rituals: Regular, calendared traditions serve as the glue for enduring friendships.

3. Understanding Why Male Friendship Falters

[06:05–11:03]

• Technology’s Impact: Social media and tech have made people “chronically online,” but less skilled at real-life connection.
  • “Friendship is a muscle, it's a habit… You’re going to have to work at it.” (Matt, 06:37)
• Cultural Stigma: Displays of male vulnerability ("I love you, man") are often ridiculed.
  • “People think saying I love you… that's weak. It's the opposite.” (Matt, 07:46)
• Practical Hack: Gradually move from “thank you” to “I love you” with friends to normalize emotional expression. (Aaron, 09:04)

4. Structural Obstacles & The Fragility of Adult Male Friendship

[09:28–11:03]

• Men lose “pre-made” social structures (school, dorms) after college, and struggle to maintain or form new friendships amidst work, moving, and family.
  • “Men don't have falling outs, they have falling offs.” (Aaron, 09:54)
• TCS Framework: Text weekly, Call monthly, See quarterly—a practical rubric for sustaining friendships. (Matt, 10:43)

5. The Partner's Role in Men’s Friendships

[11:03–16:03]

• Not Enough to Be Each Other’s Only Friend: Partners shouldn’t be the sole source of social support.
  • “Why should one person have to carry all of the weight… at all times?” (Matt, 11:11)
• Women’s Experience: Many reach out to Matt and Aaron seeking advice for their isolated partners.

6. Guilt, Gender Roles, and Encouraging Friendships

[13:43–16:03]

• Time Management Challenges: Work and family pressures make men feel guilty for seeing friends.
  • “I feel like I should commit most of my available time to my wife and my kids...” (John, 13:43)
• Permission and Support: Sometimes, men need a nudge or explicit assurance that it’s OK to socialize.

7. Social Fitness and Balancing Relationships

[17:25–21:22]

• Social Fitness: Maintenance of friendships should be as intentional as physical or mental health.
  • “When you hear ‘relationship’ you think of your wife… we wanted to make sure that friendship is an important part of that.” (Aaron, 17:25)
• Trust and Boundaries: Healthy friendships are part of trust-building in relationships; partners should get to know each other’s friends and address concerns constructively.

8. The "Toxic" Friend & Friendship Inventory

[21:30–25:00]

• Identifying Toxicity: Assess if a friend is truly harmful (e.g., promotes infidelity, substance abuse) or if there’s a different issue.
• Letting Go: Sometimes, maintaining unhealthy friendships is inertia—do a "friendship inventory" periodically. (Aaron’s birthday ritual, 24:37)

9. Making Friends as Adults—Especially in a New City

[25:25–30:08]

• Practical Advice for Newcomers:
  • Use “warm leads”—ask friends and family if they know anyone local.
  • Expand through “friends of friends.”
• Third Places: Find regular communal spaces (gym, sports, book clubs, etc.) to cultivate connections.
  • “Third place is somewhere you go consistently, regularly, where people go to socialize.” (Matt, 27:25)
• Hosting as a Path to Friendship: Embrace the role if you have the space and resources—even if people come for the events, friendships can still flourish.

10. Closing Wisdom: Never Too Late & The Power of Showing Up

[30:13–30:39]

• Matt: “It’s never too late… you start now.”
• Aaron: “Friendship is two words: showing up… for the good stuff and the bad stuff.” (30:39)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chrissy: “He says he has friends. He texts someone about fantasy football once a week. He’s in a group chat called the Dudes that mostly sends memes in silence.” (00:12)
• Matt: “We say I love you at the end of each pod. That's weak. It's the opposite.” (07:46)
• Aaron: “Men don't have falling outs, they have falling offs.” (09:54)
• John: “After three weeks of me being on tour, then come home and be like, yeah, I'm gonna go out with the guys for dinner. It feels like, yeah…” (15:26)
• Matt: “You're the average of the five people you hang out with.” (21:22)
• Matt: “It's never too late. You could have a 22 year tradition and look back and go, oh my God…” (30:23)
• Aaron: “It's two words. Showing up.” (30:39)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:03: Chrissy’s introduction & framing the male loneliness crisis
• 03:20: Matt & Aaron introduce themselves and friendship tradition
• 04:39: Evolution of the Man of the Year ritual
• 06:05: Impact of technology and the “habit of friendship”
• 07:35: Online hate about male vulnerability ("little bitch shit")
• 09:43: The TCS (“Text, Call, See”) rubric
• 11:03: Why wives/partners aren’t enough as sole friend
• 13:43: John & Chrissy discuss guilt and time management
• 17:25: Concept of “social fitness”
• 21:22: On the influence of your five closest friends
• 22:11: What makes a friend “toxic” and strategies for addressing it
• 24:37: Aaron’s yearly “friendship inventory” spreadsheet
• 25:25: Making new friends in a new city
• 27:25: The “third place” as context for building friendships
• 30:23: Never too late to build tradition
• 31:13: Toolkit: “Mandate” Exercise—guided, actionable steps to help partners encourage male friendship

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Actionable Toolkit: The “Mandate” Exercise

[31:13–40:44]

• Modeling a “Mandate”: Partners can proactively plan a recurring social outing (“mandate”) for their spouse/partner with a friend.
  • Step 1: Identify a friend who brings out the best in your partner.
  • Step 2: Clear the calendar/logistical hurdles for both parties.
  • Step 3: Make it non-negotiable (“you can’t come, you can’t stay home”).
  • Step 4: Be specific—set the date, time, and activity.
  • Follow-Up: Upon return, encourage reflection and schedule the next get-together.
• Emphasizes emotional maturity and relationship maintenance.
  • “At the end of the day, he's happy, you're happy, your relationship has more oxygen. This is not micromanaging. This is emotional maturity. This is relationship maintenance. This is what love looks like.” (Matt, 40:27)

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Conclusion

Bold, honest, and insightful, this episode of Self-Conscious uses humor and empathy to unpack the difficulties men have forming and maintaining adult friendships—ultimately reframing the issue as central not just to male wellness, but to the health of relationships and families. With practical takeaways like the “mandate” and encouragement to start traditions at any age, Matt, Aaron, Chrissy, and John provide a toolkit for listeners to strengthen social bonds, dismantle cultural stigma, and show up for each other—one steak dinner, heartfelt text, or awkward “I love you, man” at a time.

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Transcript

[Chrissy Teigen]

You're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness, and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier, and more productive life. Okay, listen up, ladies. We need to talk about something awkward and weirdly dangerous. Your husband doesn't have any friends. He says he has friends. He texts someone about fantasy football once a week. He's in a group chat called the Dudes that mostly sends memes in silence. Maybe he has a poker night once a year, but let's be real. He doesn't have anyone he can call when he's sad or mad or scared. And definitely not when he's crying in his car in a Costco parking lot because life is hard and nobody ever asks for how he's doing. And here's the thing. It's not just sad. It's actually dangerous. Studies show that loneliness in men is a huge risk factor for depression, substance abuse, and early death. So while we're all out here journaling and meditating and calling our best friends from third grade to scream about something that happened in Target, they are just bottling it all up. And guess who they end up dumping it on? Yep, it's us. So today on Self Conscious, we're diving into why men are so bad at friendship. What the hell happened to male bonding? And why helping your partner build and maintain strong friendships isn't just generous, it's self preservation. Joining me are Matt Ritter and Erin Caro for the past 22 years. On the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, Matt and Erin, along with a group of nine lifelong friends, gather at Peter Luger Steakhouse in Manhattan to decide who among them will be chosen as man of the Year. And what started as a joke bec glue that kept their crew strong for decades. Inspiring man of the Year, America's number one friendship podcast, and their new Audible original, the Buddy System. It might just save your man and your relationship. Matt Ritter. Aaron Caro. Welcome to Self Conscious. I thought I should invite the world's loneliest man. We could say you're not a lonely man, but I wanted a male perspective. I wanted to hear from John, because this topic of male friendships, I think, is something that John thinks is really interesting.

[John Legend]

Just to be clear, I'm John Legend, Chrissy's husband.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, sorry. Yes.

[John Legend]

So she knows me very well.

[Chrissy Teigen]

People's man of the Year.

[John Legend]

At one point, I was sexiest man alive. Whatever you guys wrote about male friendship. But I think in general, there's a lot of discussion now about the crisis among men and loneliness and isolation. And just men seem to be not in a great spot right now. So it's so cool that you wrote a book addressing it and thinking about it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Yeah. And they're here. We're going to talk about their Audible original, the buddy system. But I think it's really cool we have guys talking about this. I think that's step one. Right.

[Matt Ritter]

We are very excited to be here. I'm Matt Ritter, this is Aaron K. Road.

[Aaron Caro]

And the genesis of why all of us are talking right now is that me and Matt are part of the world's greatest friendship tradition. I met Matt in second grade. We grew this group of nine over the next few years. And then after college, we all dispersed across the country and we started a tradition. Every year on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, the nine of us all fly in for wherever we live now. And we have dinner at Peter Luger's in Brooklyn, Very famous old steakhouse in John.

[John Legend]

It's perfect scheduling because you're going home to see your family anyway.

[Aaron Caro]

Exactly.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That's what they talk about too, how it's really actually to have rituals and traditions because then you're literally putting your friendship on the calendar.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Matt Ritter]

Taking the guesswork out of friendship, we call it. We know where we're gonna be 50 years from now, if we're alive. It's gonna be at Peter Luger's the Tuesday before Thanksgiving. Arguing about who had the best year.

[John Legend]

How'd you choose Peter Luger's?

[Aaron Caro]

So it initially started as a friends giving dinner, and we were saying who had the best year. Now Matt and I talk a lot about the different types of friends in our friend group. I'm the historian, so I've got all the photos. So I started writing down who won this completely made up thing mat had the best year in 2009. And then we got a gigantic trophy, which if your listeners see on social, it's like half a Stanley Cup. It's called the man of the year trophy.

[John Legend]

First dinner, no award.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah, it evolved.

[Aaron Caro]

It evolved.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I think what's so cool is that in your book and then with your podcast, you guys talk about friendship in a way that seems like you're therapists or like sociologists or something. How did you know that you would be really good at this? You talk about it and you talked about numbers. What do you guys say? 15% of guys have zero close friends? Yeah, that I have completely zero close friends. And You've done the research and you've actually looked into how this can really affect society as a whole and how bad it's getting lately.

[Matt Ritter]

You know what's funny about it is we backed into this pod, we were talking three years ago, like, we should start a pod together. Just two comedians. We're like, what are we good at? And there was this trophy staring us in the face. And so this happened very organically. We would have the Luger's dinner and the weeks leading up to it, strangers or friends of friends would start going, hey, who's going to win this year? And they got all invested. And the one thing we would always hear from guys, man, I wish I did something like that. I wish I had a friend group like that. Because in your 40s, to have a friend group where you're doing a 22 year now tradition, it's pretty rare. So then we started reverse engineering. What did we do right to have this friend group? And that's sort of how we became therapists and researchers in the field. But we continually learn from our listeners and, you know, were always like soliciting from people like, oh, what are you seeing in your friend group that works?

[John Legend]

Well, a lot of people are talking about men in different ways. You got like Scott Galloway's talking about it a lot, about the crisis among young men. Then you've got Jonathan Haidt and those guys with the anxious generation talking about men and women. But different issues that both genders face because of the same thing, which is like technology and smartphones and social media and video games or whatever it is, online porn, all these things that are causing this generation of young people social and psychological problems.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah, they're chronically online. They're not getting together as much in real life. Like kids aren't, you know, just out playing with their friends, riding bikes and doing all this stuff, and they're not coming out into the world with the social skills that we probably came into the world with. But again, I think people don't realize that friendship is, again, it's like a muscle, it's a habit. If you thought about it that way, you would put it in your to do list in your daily life, as opposed to just some luxury that, oh, if I have a couple good friends, great, like, you're going to have to work at it. And I think high school, college, you have them and then suddenly you don't. That's a really hard kind of thing that just falls off.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I think that where we're at right now too is being an Alpha male is really celebrated. And it's almost like I can a bunch of those dudes thinking that male friendship is like little bitch shit or something. Can't you see that?

[Matt Ritter]

We get a lot of that, a little bit of hate online about that for being vulnerable. People think saying I love you. We say I love you at the end of each pod. That's weak. It's the opposite.

[John Legend]

First of all, that's beautiful.

[Matt Ritter]

It is.

[John Legend]

I love you at the end of it. I started saying I love you to, like, a few of my male friends, and it felt different.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I didn't know that.

[John Legend]

Like, I'll say it's a.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Well, you'll say, love you, man.

[John Legend]

I'll say, love you.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That's okay.

[Matt Ritter]

That counts.

[Aaron Caro]

That counts.

[Matt Ritter]

That counts. Give it full credit.

[John Legend]

But it feels like something I didn't used to say ever to any dude ever to anyone other than my wife. But it felt like it was right, though, too.

[Matt Ritter]

I never said it to my friends until I was 40. I couldn't do it for whatever reason. I would hear people say it and it felt trivial. And I think that's what a lot of guys think. It feels trivial or it feels weak or whatever. I think it's really courageous and tough. I think that is alpha male stuff to be able to go up to your buddy and say, I love you. That's masculine.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I look at that and maybe 20 years ago, I wouldn't have thought this way, but I think it's so confident and cool and sexy to be that way. I really do. I love the I love you shit. I love it.

[Aaron Caro]

We do have a tip or a hack for your listeners to share with their spouses or partners the men in their lives if they want to tell their buddy that they love them, but they're not ready for it. So me and Matt recommend the way.

[John Legend]

You let into that's so funny.

[Aaron Caro]

Me and Matt recommend you start with thank you. Thank you for the ride, thank you for the beer. Thank you for being a good friend. Work your way up to it. If we say thanks as a gateway emotion, once you're telling your friends what you're grateful for, it's a short jump to I love you.

[John Legend]

Aw, that's sweet.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Thanks, man. Yeah, I love a good I love you, bro. Then tell me what is holding men back from maintaining or making close friendships in adulthood.

[Aaron Caro]

First of all, I think we need to recognize that we were handed friends on a silver platter our entire lives until high school or college, like in the dorm play dates. And now you're just floating through life without any of the skills. And we should also mention that men aren't naturally very good at these tasks. Making plans, keeping in touch. We have so many listeners and readers who are like, oh, yeah, my buddy Jim. Haven't talked to him in five years. We say, men don't have falling outs, they have falling offs. Yeah, nothing bad happened.

[John Legend]

That's fair.

[Aaron Caro]

Just never speak to them again.

[Matt Ritter]

I would also add, you know what he's talking about, this surface area problem. You graduated college. That's the first time you're not all rowing in the same direction like what you were talking about. You had those buddies at your first job, and then after that, you're no longer living in the same city. We move more than we ever did. Right. The mobility issue. Covid remote work. All of these hurdles have created a world where you have to actually go out and put in the work to make and maintain these friendships. They're not just floating around everywhere.

[John Legend]

But does technology also give you kind of a cop out? Because you can group chat your friends all the time. You don't actually set up the IRL type of meetups that you would have to have done before.

[Matt Ritter]

We have a rubric that we instituted that you guys could steal, your listeners could steal. We call it tcs Text, call C Text once a week, call once a month, see IRL once a quarter. You should be doing these things for your inner circle that bare minimum.

[Chrissy Teigen]

So a lot of women in marriages will say, I'm his best friend. Do you guys think that is actually enough for somebody?

[Matt Ritter]

Absolutely not. Look, I think it's great your wife should be your partner and, like, yes, your best friend. But also, does she watch six hours of John Claude Van Damme movies or World War II documentaries or, like, just in general? I think it's always healthy to have other significant others in your life. Why should one person have to carry all of the weight of everything that's going on in your life at all times?

[Aaron Caro]

It's interesting. When we started the podcast, we didn't think this was gonna be. So the number one email that we get is from a woman who's married to or dating a man, and the man has no friends. And they're like, get my husband out of the house.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Wow.

[John Legend]

There's been a couple movies based on this premise. The one, yeah, I love you, man.

[Aaron Caro]

I love you.

[John Legend]

I love you, man.

[Matt Ritter]

I love you, man.

[Chrissy Teigen]

But then what's the Kevin Hart one? The higher.

[John Legend]

Oh, yes. And then Tim Robinson just did a new one, which got really Interesting.

[Aaron Caro]

We haven't seen it.

[John Legend]

Paul Rudd's in it, too.

[Chrissy Teigen]

The go to best friend.

[John Legend]

He's the male friend target for both.

[Aaron Caro]

It's just like women and wives are not meant to be your primary care physician, your therapist, your sports. Exactly. It's putting too much pressure on any person. And that's why Matt brought up Oso's other significant others. It's fine for your husband to be your best friend, but he needs other friends. It's not healthy for you.

[Matt Ritter]

It's also not a threat for him to have other friends. Right. It's not detrimental. It's a positive that he has other.

[John Legend]

Outlets, as long as they're not all single.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What's the best thing a woman can do to encourage her partner to invest in his friendships?

[Aaron Caro]

First of all, modeling good friendship behavior. So if you have good friends and you're seeing them and you're making plans and you're coming home energized, that will seep into the husband's brain. That's number one. You talk about double dates now. Again, I can't speak to this because I'm single, but going out with another couple and then encouraging, hey, maybe you should.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You also can't keep fucking up. Like, when you're out with your guy friends, then if you're going to have friends, and then all the time you're like, we're texting at 4am we don't know where you are. Like, what's happening? Where are you? Are you safe? What's happening? That mistake can't happen.

[Matt Ritter]

They need to be the right friends. Yeah, they definitely need to be the right friends. But also, sometimes a spouse or wife or girlfriend needs to remind the man who's not doing any socializing that he has friends and that he enjoys spending time with them. A lot of men just forgot that they enjoy spending or just they don't have the rhythm, they don't have the structure, and they need a little help.

[John Legend]

And sometimes it's just hard because I'm gone for work a lot. And then when I'm actually home, it's like, I should commit most of my available time to my wife and my kids. I feel like I should do that, and I want to do it because I miss them and I've been gone for a while and, like, the idea of me going out for golf for four hours with a dude, it feels a bit like undeserved, undefined.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I know. And this just got very real for us right now in a way because, like, I know that when you Go to New York. You're gonna go to dinner with those guys out here in Los Angeles. You don't have that. It's not the same.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You don't have a group of friends that, like, you're maybe gonna tell me, like, hey, babe, I'm gonna go out to dinner with the guys at seven o' clock tonight. That doesn't happen. It's always a work thing. Or it's me and I don't want you to have. I can watch Bravo by myself. Like, I'm totally fine. But I wish you had that group of guys that are in New York, in Los Angeles. Maybe we should make that a thing.

[Aaron Caro]

I thought you were gonna say the opposite. That you actually like the fact that he.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, no, I would like him to have that. I think it'd be good.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah. And it's funny, a lot of guys fall on either extreme of the spectrum. It's like they have those guys that they go all out with, like 4am or they never go out. They just. What they really need is that healthy balance. And what you're talking about, that guilt that you. It's valid. You should be there for your wife and child first and foremost. But you show up better for them when you have a healthy friendship circle.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I mean, we have childcare as well. Like, there was no reason you should ever feel like I can't have a night tonight.

[John Legend]

Yeah, of course. But it feels excessive. Like when I'm.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I'm telling you I'm good.

[Matt Ritter]

The goss.

[John Legend]

I understand.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I'm okay.

[John Legend]

I understand you're good. But like, after three weeks of me being on tour, then come home and be like, yeah, I'm gonna go out with the guys for dinner. It feels like, yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Well, I will say, like, if you were gonna do like, Sunday golf. I don't know how golf works, but if you were gonna do like a Sunday golf thing and it takes hours.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That would bum me out more than like, you wanting to go to dinner, like, when I would be in bed already.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

If you wanted to go have like a. Like, we know. So we have so many good friends that they are committed to golfing.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And I can't imagine that would be more okay with me than you just going to dinner with somebody.

[John Legend]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

If you're gonna go spend like the prime hours of the day. Not with us, that would bum me out a little bit.

[John Legend]

And the thing is, I don't think she would be upset with me going to dinner with, you know, a couple of the school dads. Or something. I don't not do it because I think she'd be upset with me. It just feels excessive to me to try to do it or to even, like, conceive of the plan to do it. But I could. I mean, I don't think she would be upset with me about it.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That reminds me of when I was in active labor and you were like, oh, I don't know if I should go to this performance tonight. And I was like, go. I need you. Just go down the street.

[John Legend]

I paid to show up.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That's true.

[Matt Ritter]

Did it come down to the wire there?

[Chrissy Teigen]

It came down to me wanting food so badly and they wouldn't give it to me at the hospital because I was, like, in labor. And so John went, did the gig and brought me back lamb chops. That's what it came down to.

[Matt Ritter]

Nice.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Well, you guys are also very worldly men, though. Like, when I talk to you both, you both seem very evolved. Evolved, yes. Thank you. That's a really good word. Let's think about, like, the shitty guys then, that are doing it wrong, that aren't necessarily making their wives or partners feel safe. What can they do to mend that and make sure that they can have a good friendship, a clear friendship, but also make their spouse feel okay with it.

[Aaron Caro]

Yeah. Well, first of all, we talk about the concept of social fitness. Obviously, you have your mental health. You're seeing a therapist, you're in the gym, your physical fitness and math. And I talk about social fitness, which is the holistic your interactions. And that's family, and that's friends, and that's romantic partners as well. And the friendship part of it is often overlooked. When you hear the word relationship, you think of your wife or you think of your kids. So we wanted to make sure that friendship is an important part of that. And as Matt said earlier, a guy with healthy friendships is going to be better spouse. So I think that if there potentially are issues between the spouses, that is one way to address it. If he's going out with other guys who are. Who have good relationships, good spouses, and are grounded, that's gonna seep back in.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Would you lie for him?

[Aaron Caro]

Who, Matt? Yeah, lie for him all the time.

[Matt Ritter]

First of all, the first thing you should do when you get married to a guy is you clean out his closet. And then you clean out his bad friend's close. I am the real dangerous ones. You just clip them, and he doesn't even realize you clipped his friends out of his life. He doesn't even know what happened? That's what you should do.

[Aaron Caro]

I am wearing a suicide vest. I can end Matt in my life.

[Matt Ritter]

We call. Yeah, what is it? Mutually assured destruction.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Aaron Caro]

Yeah.

[John Legend]

The thing is, for a lot of this to work, the man has to be good at building trust with his wife so that she doesn't feel away every time he's out of her sight. That has to be earned and built through you actually being someone that's trustworthy as a partner. And I think the reason why Chrissy wouldn't worry about me going out to dinner with anyone partly is just because we've built trust. And when we were early in our relationship, that wasn't built yet, and now it is.

[Matt Ritter]

I also think you earn it through the positive friendship interaction, so you're entitled to your Vegas trip if it's not. Those are the only times she sees you with your friends. You're coming back wasted and you're not being a good dad the next day. Or you only play golf Saturday and Sunday, and then when you go to the farmer's market, you're absent. You know? So I think it's like, build in what you're talking about the trust, but also the goodwill to allow for. Sometimes guys need to blow off some steam.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I cannot believe how mad I used to get, how jealous I used to be. It's crazy.

[John Legend]

Well, we were at different points in our lives, though, so. It's like when we started dating, I was in my mid-20s, and I had been single for a while, and I was having a fun time when I was single. So she had a right to at least be like, let's see if he's able to get his act together. That's reasonable for you to feel that way. But we've built so much trust over time. It would be crazy if she was.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Acting that way now. Like, a lot of trust has been built between me and your friends.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Like, I love them.

[Aaron Caro]

Yeah.

[Matt Ritter]

And getting to know them is what you're talking about, too. It's like, if there's some that your partner is hanging out with that you don't know that well and you don't trust, why don't you know them that well?

[Chrissy Teigen]

I think that's the case with so many women. I really do. I think there's just one standout that you're like, they're gonna get in trouble. Like, once these two link up, I can't trust them. I can't trust them when they're out. And I can't say that I feel that way about anybody. That you know at all?

[John Legend]

Well, yeah, all my friends now have kids. They're married. It's like, those are the craziest ones. But, like, everybody's got responsibilities. They have jobs that require them to be, like, present and professional and all these things. So nobody's out just wasting their lives away.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah. And I also think when you're in your 20s, you know, you want those friends. You're out till 3 in the morning. When you're in your 40s, it's time to leave your house at 9pm like, when you go like this, that means everybody leaves.

[John Legend]

You don't want them to be losers either. You want them to have, like, responsibilities and some direction in their lives and all these things, even if they're not married, having, like, responsibilities and direction and to care about their careers. That's what you wanted, a friend.

[Aaron Caro]

You're the average of the five people you hang out with. So if your spouse has five great, evolved, successful friends, there you go.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Let's talk more about the toxic friend, because I feel that that is very. It's just such a funny one to talk about. Has Matt ever had a friend that you found toxic or vice versa?

[John Legend]

He is the least toxic. Look at this guy. He's wholesome, personified.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Nobody's toxic. It's you.

[Matt Ritter]

If you don't know the toxic person.

[John Legend]

Exactly.

[Aaron Caro]

Well, the first thing we would say is, let's examine why you think this person is toxic and look inward. First. We're talking to the women who have it, who think one of their.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What would be a reason? What would be reasons that you consider toxic?

[Aaron Caro]

Infidelity. If they are over drinking or doing drugs. If they're not, you know, you want friends who lift you up, up. So if a guy has friends who are bringing him down or are bad influences and that's seeping into the rest of his life, but you also don't know what is going on in that person's life. Maybe the, quote, toxic friend, he's getting divorced or he has problems at work. So we don't actually know until you engage with that person. Now, they may be toxic. Yeah, but that would be the first step. Or is it that you just don't like that your husband's hanging out with them?

[John Legend]

I saw David Banner. He was doing the interview and he was talking about infidelity. And he talked to this older business guy. He said, I never want to get into business with guys who cheat on their wives. Because if you would lie to this woman who you've committed your whole life to you're going to lie to me too. And that's an interesting way to think about it. I'd never, like, heard a man talk about that in the context of other men cheating. Because a lot of times it's like bro code. I'm not going to tell. Let your friend do whatever he's going to do. But. But when someone is a chronic cheater and infidelity is a part of their lifestyle, it means they're dishonest. And so that dishonesty may affect you at some point too.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah. It's funny, I feel the same way about gossip. If you're out with people that are heavily gossiping, what are they gonna say about you when you're not in the room? I think toxic is right in the eye of the beholder. Right. You think that person's toxic. Maybe your partner doesn't see them as toxic. So have you talked about that with your partner first and foremost, or is it just the environment that you're enabling them to? You know, like, is it that they're only going out at 4am or they're only going to Vegas? Can we get them in an environment where it's just dinner at the house and then maybe you don't see them as so toxic or they're just not being that toxic. Or maybe they are. Maybe they're a friendship vampire that's sapping the energy and they are not somebody who's healthy for you or your partner, and you need to cut them out. Thing about friendships is sometimes we think that friendships should last forever just because you're already friends with somebody. So there's that inertia on that end. Right. We were talking a lot about the inertia of not putting in the work and your friendship's fading. But there's also the inertia of maintaining unhealthy friendships and not doing a little bit of what we call friendship inventory. Carol likes to do it on his birthday every year.

[John Legend]

Okay.

[Aaron Caro]

So every year when I do a big birthday in la, and by the way, we say, always celebrate your birthday. Like, oh, I don't like to. It's an excuse to get together.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Aaron Caro]

I literally have a spreadsheet of all my friends because that's how I send the email out, of course. And then I put a new tab every year and I see the friend group who had changed. I haven't spoken to this guy in an entire year. He's out, he's in. Just gives me called social universe as well. It gives me an idea of who.

[Matt Ritter]

My friends Are the Harvard study on happiness 85 years, the longest longevity study ever done. The number one indicator for lifespan for how long you live wasn't your diet, your exercise, your finances. It was the health of your relationships. So people with healthy friendships and relationships live longer. This stuff is literally killing you to be lonely and isolated.

[John Legend]

Let's talk about initiating friendships. So think about my issue like having a great group of friends in New York, but I'm relatively new in la. What's your advice to people who may be moving to a new city and need that friendship element in their life, in real life, not just on group chats with people thousands of miles away and want to form new friendships with new guys?

[Matt Ritter]

You say, hi, I'm John Legend. You want to be my friend?

[Aaron Caro]

Just gonna say that.

[Matt Ritter]

I was just gonna know, but it's.

[John Legend]

A serious for me.

[Chrissy Teigen]

But that actually is. That poses. That's an important point. It might be a little harder for.

[Matt Ritter]

John Legend to make a real friend. For sure, for sure, for sure.

[Aaron Caro]

Yeah. But for the average person, yes. First step, you move to a new place. Ask your friends and relatives in the place you just left, and you're gonna send them an email. You're gonna say, I just moved to la, just moved to Philly. And you're just gonna say two words. Know anyone? You wanna get warm leads of people in the other city. This is a very, very simple step. Oh, I know people go, no, my friends don't know anybody in Seattle. Do you know your friend's cousin's fraternity brother? No, just random people in this other city. Step one, let's get warm leads. And then we're gonna go into Man.

[John Legend]

Dan, which we'll talk about warm leads.

[Matt Ritter]

Man Dan, Glengarry leads, guys. But here's the other one. This is the most obvious. Hiding in plain sight in front of your face, friends of friends. Yeah, people are so, I don't know, they're so afraid or they feel they're stepping on toes or whatever. Expanding your circle through your existing friends is the easiest way because they're already pre vetted. They probably already have a bunch of similarities to you, commonalities to you. But again, your new city, you don't know anybody. You're not trying to make a friend. I say this sounds counterintuitive because that's too hard, that's too much of a burden on you to wake up and go, I have to go make a friend. That scares me just even thinking about it.

[Aaron Caro]

It's also impossible.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah, I can't control it is. But what you can do is put yourself in a situation where you can build in these habits that will inevitably result in making a friend. I'm a big fan of James Clear about process versus goals. So if you follow the buddy system, our audible original, these are the steps, right? Consistency, regularity. They call it a third place. I don't know if you've heard this term. It's become popularized, like you're working a home or your first two places. Third place is somewhere you go consistently regularly, where people go to socialize. So that could be a variety of things.

[Chrissy Teigen]

What's your third space?

[John Legend]

I don't have one.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I don't have one either.

[Aaron Caro]

Again, you're John Legend, so I don't know if you're gonna go to the coffee shop every day.

[Matt Ritter]

No, but you could be. I don't know if you play sports.

[Aaron Caro]

You could be.

[Matt Ritter]

No, we don't have.

[Aaron Caro]

Well, you like golf?

[John Legend]

No, I don't play golf.

[Aaron Caro]

Oh, I thought you said.

[John Legend]

I see. See, what's funny is, like, Dr. Diamond, for instance, will, like, invite me out, and I've never been able to go on the days when he invited me and because I've always had something else going on. But I feel like we could be closer friends if I was able to, like, make some of these golf dates. And then I would actually, like, try to learn how to play golf. And it could be a thing. Her manager, Luke, is a really good golfer. And if I was into golf and I would, like, go with him, and there's other people in my life that would do that. But it almost feels like a luxury when on a Saturday, am I gonna do this? When I have miles baseball game or something else going on, or I have a gig. It just feels like, when would I ever.

[Matt Ritter]

It is hard. But also we say in the audible original, we say find your golf, because not everybody is into golf, but there's something that everybody's into. I mean, I'm sure there are things, if you think about it for a minute, that you like to do, that you could do consistently, whether it's like the gym even. A lot of people just have gym friends. That's one of the easiest third places, like some sort of fitness class.

[John Legend]

I think going to, like, a Lakers.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Gym, being a celebrity so much is at your house, your own home, so you're removed from all those. You're not going to, like, remedy place or something. Right. To go get.

[Matt Ritter]

So you could host something, you know, you could turn. You know, I mean, I think for you guys, it's probably More about. Since you already love to host. Hosting something a little more regularly. No. Cause you could host.

[John Legend]

Just have them over.

[Matt Ritter]

You could host a poker night. Right. You could host a book club. There's a wine tasting thing once a month. There's a million things that you can do.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I know, but what goes with that is like, are people only hanging out with us because we throw these awesome things too?

[Matt Ritter]

Yes, that's what I mean. That's the burden and great thing about being a host.

[Aaron Caro]

Yes.

[Matt Ritter]

People are doing that.

[John Legend]

Why not?

[Matt Ritter]

But if you like those people, that's okay. Exactly. I mean, that's your role in the friend group. I mean, that's honestly, that's the truth. Like, everybody has a role to play. People sometimes hang out with me because I'm fun. And that's part of, like, you guys are funny too.

[John Legend]

Like, you know, you are too.

[Aaron Caro]

I would.

[John Legend]

Maybe three or four of us are really funny in this group.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You've done really good today. I will say, give me one thing you want to leave our listeners with about male friendship. One thing you think is crucial for them to know.

[Matt Ritter]

It's never too late. I don't care how old you are, you start now. We've had this trophy for 22 years. We go back 40 something years. You start now. You could have a 22 year tradition and look back and go, oh, my God, I've been friends with this person for 20 years. So don't think it's ever too late to make a new friend.

[Aaron Caro]

And I would say the definition of friendship is easy. It's two words. Showing up. That's all you need to do to be a good friend. And that includes the good stuff. The birthdays, the super bowl parties, which we'll be at, I assume, and also the negative things, the funeral and the illnesses. You can't just show up for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. If you show up, you're a good friend.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Matt and Erin show us how to plan a mandate for your significant other.

[Matt Ritter]

Okay, so Christy and John, we want to do a little exercise.

[John Legend]

Okay?

[Matt Ritter]

The name of this exercise is the man date. Okay, you ready?

[Aaron Caro]

Okay, got it.

[Matt Ritter]

So here's the thing. When men struggle with friendship, it affects their spouse too. We tend to find that in relationships, men fall into basically three camps, right?

[Aaron Caro]

So the most common is the guy has no friends and the wife or the spouse is like, get my husband out of the house.

[Matt Ritter]

Camp two Is he sees his friends, but it's all or nothing with them. They're going to Vegas during the week, or they're playing golf Saturday and Sunday. And when he comes home to his spouse, he's got nothing in the tank. Or worse, you're playing cleanup crew.

[John Legend]

Okay.

[Aaron Caro]

And so Camp 3 is two people with very, very busy social calendars and work calendars who are generally not. Not seeing each other or their friends enough.

[Matt Ritter]

So you guys are probably in Camp 3. We're camping 3.

[Chrissy Teigen]

But we see each other a lot.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah.

[John Legend]

I wouldn't say we have busy social calendars. We have busy work calendar. Yeah, yeah.

[Matt Ritter]

So the people who fall into that camp, essentially, it's like things may be going well, but you may not have the right balance between how much do we see each other, how much do we work. Where's that bucket for friendship?

[Aaron Caro]

And so we were talking before about how friendship is like the redheaded stepchild of relationships.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Aaron Caro]

When things get busy, the first thing that goes is friendship.

[John Legend]

That's definitely us.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah. And so look, every healthy relationship needs a date night for each other. Right. We're not gonna help you plan that. I'm sure you can tell.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I know he wishes we had more of those, too. We'll do that.

[John Legend]

We should go out tonight.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah, do it.

[Aaron Caro]

Do it. You're already glammed up.

[John Legend]

You're already glammed up.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Start there, though.

[John Legend]

I already always base it on, so.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I think of it as I've been glammed up. I want to take my hair out.

[Matt Ritter]

But the other thing you. Is a recurring mandate.

[John Legend]

Okay?

[Matt Ritter]

A recurring, regular, consistent on the calendar date with another man.

[John Legend]

Okay?

[Aaron Caro]

So, Chrissy, what you're going to do, and we're modeling this for your listeners, is you are going to plan a mandate with and for your partner. But the goal is, over time, he's going to learn to do it on his own. Okay, so this is kind of like emotional training wheels. And eventually he does it like a.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Little mouse in a. Yeah, exactly.

[Matt Ritter]

Exactly. So I want you guys both to close your eyes, and we're going to start with an affirmation. Our relationship is stronger when we both feel full and content.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Our relationship is stronger when we both.

[John Legend]

Feel full and content.

[Matt Ritter]

I deserve strong, energizing friendships, and so do my partner.

[John Legend]

I deserve strong, energizing friendships, and so does my partner.

[Matt Ritter]

By nurturing my partner's friendships, I am nurturing myself.

[Chrissy Teigen]

By nurturing my partner's friendships, I am nurturing myself.

[Aaron Caro]

Okay, you guys can open your eyes now. Okay.

[Chrissy Teigen]

All that Goes through my mind is like, Ariana said this at one point or Jax.

[John Legend]

Oh, oh, you mean Vanderpump.

[Matt Ritter]

Yes.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Great. And then we know what happened there.

[John Legend]

We know what happened.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay.

[Aaron Caro]

All right, Chrissy, so we're gonna plan a mandate four step process. So the first step is we're gonna pick a target. So I want you to choose a friend of John's or a friend of your partner's that he hasn't seen in a while that he enjoys spending time with, but most importantly, who brings out the best in him.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Would you like me to do Los Angeles?

[Aaron Caro]

Let's do Los Angeles.

[John Legend]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I feel like that that's the most fertile ground right now because I don't have, like, close male friends here other than couple friends, which.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Matt Ritter]

Luke.

[Chrissy Teigen]

We'll say Luke.

[John Legend]

Okay. Couple friends, but yes.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, sorry. Are they allowed to be couple friends?

[Matt Ritter]

Well, if it's somebody that you would.

[Chrissy Teigen]

He would hang out without.

[John Legend]

I would definitely hang out with him. I met him through Chrissy because it's her manager and her agent is married to him. So the manager and agent married each other because they were working together on Chrissy and fell in love.

[Matt Ritter]

Amazing.

[John Legend]

And we really enjoy both of them a lot. And I. I individually enjoy Luke a lot too.

[Matt Ritter]

Well, I think those are great. I think it's actually great to do the mandate with somebody that you also both enjoy couple stuff with, because you're even strengthening that bond.

[John Legend]

Okay, cool.

[Matt Ritter]

Step two is clearing the path, which is doing a little bit of the work for him, which is reaching out to Luke's wife or Luke directly, depending on your comfort level.

[John Legend]

This is our management.

[Chrissy Teigen]

We talk all day together. All of us as a group, talk all day.

[Matt Ritter]

So that's step two. You. You tell Luke this is what you're doing, and you're clearing the path and you're clearing the calendar.

[John Legend]

This is amazing.

[Matt Ritter]

We're removing hurdles. This is a logistical hurdle. So if he's like, I don't know if he can do it. He can do it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

God. I'm gonna get you into golf, though, and then I'm gonna lose you every Sunday.

[John Legend]

Luke was an actual college golfer and he taught college, and he's a member of a country club, lakeside, and he actually enjoys golfing.

[Chrissy Teigen]

And you would enjoy it too.

[John Legend]

And he could teach me how to golf. Honestly, I love Luke and he's so.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Patient and so funny. Him and Megan are just like. He's a wonderful humor.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Great.

[Aaron Caro]

I love it. I love it.

[John Legend]

There's nothing stopping us but actually doing it.

[Aaron Caro]

This is why we're doing a mandate.

[John Legend]

Yes.

[Aaron Caro]

So the third step. And again, we're imagining we're modeling this for our listeners. Chrissy, you're going to talk to Jon and you're gonna tell him very clearly and kindly on Friday, whenever it is, I'm going out with the girls and you're gonna say you can't come and you can't stay home. Now that's.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, okay.

[Aaron Caro]

Now that's the key, right? Because many of our listeners, partners, they're not only not seeing their friends, but they're also just sitting around the house. He doesn't have either of those options. You can't come and you can't stay home.

[Chrissy Teigen]

It's like you what? I often want to cancel dinners that we have booked together with people. And so I drop out and I go. You still have to go though.

[John Legend]

She'll do that.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I do do that a lot.

[Aaron Caro]

And so then you're also gonna say you're gonna tell John you're hanging out with Luke. It's been forever. You're gonna text him right now. And then John might say, well, how do I know if Luke's even available? Boom.

[John Legend]

Luke just had a child, by the way, like very recently.

[Matt Ritter]

He needs a night out. He needs a night out.

[Aaron Caro]

But Chrissy has already pre cleared the night, so you can't be like, well, Luke, we already know Friday he's available.

[Matt Ritter]

And now step four is be active, not passive. A lot of guys tend to call or text their friends. Like, we should hang out, we should get together, we should do something sometime.

[John Legend]

But you make a specific day.

[Matt Ritter]

You're going to be Luke, I'm free Saturday. I know you're free Saturday. That's when we're going to play nine holes. I've got two hours. I cleared nine to 12. Let's do this.

[Aaron Caro]

Or they could do dinner if you don't want to send them on a golf day, you're in charge.

[Chrissy Teigen]

No, I'm just thinking like having a date and time stresses me out.

[John Legend]

It doesn't stress me out. So that's not.

[Chrissy Teigen]

He likes it. Yeah, he likes it.

[Aaron Caro]

The problem is if you don't give him that, he's gonna text Luke. Oh, I'm busy. And then it never happens.

[John Legend]

Yeah.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Are you gonna do it?

[John Legend]

Sure, why not?

[Matt Ritter]

We are doing it.

[Aaron Caro]

We're doing it.

[Chrissy Teigen]

We're doing it. Is this it? When this airs, it's gonna happen.

[John Legend]

It will have happened.

[Aaron Caro]

Okay, so we have a little bonus tip. Okay, so before he goes on the Mandate with Luke, we want you to just remind him that when he comes back, there's going to be a little pop quiz and that he's actually going to go a little bit deeper with Luke.

[John Legend]

Oh, wow.

[Aaron Caro]

How's it going with the new kid? How's your wife? How's job? Not just what's going on with the Lakers. How's your golf handicap? We actually want him to ask some personal questions.

[Chrissy Teigen]

You'll be good at that.

[John Legend]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Matt Ritter]

And here's the follow up. After the date, you're going to remind.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Him, hey, send flowers.

[Matt Ritter]

Yeah, send flowers, remind him how he felt. Because we tend to forget how energized we were. He's gonna come back lit up from that date, and we don't want that feeling to fade and then never be calendared again. So when he comes home and you go, wasn't that so great? That's when you go, okay, now put it on the calendar again.

[Chrissy Teigen]

This is really so good for women too, though. Like, I think anyone could listen to you. Yes.

[Aaron Caro]

Yeah. Our tips work for anybody.

[Chrissy Teigen]

They really.

[Aaron Caro]

And then we bring it all back to the beginning of our conversation, which is creating the ritual. We have the trophy. Now. You went out with Luke. Now Chrissy's not going to plan the next mandate for you. You're going to say, luke. How about the third Thursday of every month we do dinner or once a quarter, we play golf.

[John Legend]

Megan's going to be like, I just had a fucking baby.

[Chrissy Teigen]

I know, but she can bring her baby to me.

[Aaron Caro]

Let's picture our listeners who their husband never goes out and never sees anybody. We want to get a recurring ritual so there's no excuse. And it's on the calendar.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Oh, I love that.

[Matt Ritter]

And so here's the thing. At the end of the day, he's happy, you're happy, your relationship has more oxygen. This is not micromanaging. This is emotional maturity. This is relationship maintenance. This is what love looks like.

[Aaron Caro]

That's a mandate, guys.

[John Legend]

I love it. That was excellent.

[Chrissy Teigen]

That was so good. Matt and Aaron, thank you guys so much. We have new friends.

[John Legend]

Yes. Are we friends now?

[Matt Ritter]

We are friends.

[Aaron Caro]

Oh, my God.

[Chrissy Teigen]

Matt, Aaron and John, I want to thank you guys for joining me today on Self Conscious. The buddy system by Matt Ritter and Aaron Caro is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Conscious, an Audible original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible Q Code and Huntley Productions, hosted by Chrissy Teigen Written and executive produced by Jimmy Jelinek Executive producers for Q Code Shen Yan Hu and Alexa Gabrielle Ramirez Executive producer for Huntley Productions Chrissy Teigen Executive producer for Audible Stacey Creamer Recorded and engineered by Ben Milchev Filmed by Bridger Clements Production coordinator Brian Coulter Edited, mixed and mastered by Ben Milchev Head of creative development at Audible Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC Sound Recording Copyright 2025 by Audible Original.

[Matt Ritter]

Sam.