The Trial

Summary

Senseless with Erika Mahoney: "The Trial" – Episode Summary

Release Date: August 5, 2025
Title: The Trial
Host: Erika Mahoney, LLC
Description:
In the aftermath of the tragic mass shooting at King Soopers grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, Erika Mahoney delves into the complexities of the ensuing trial. Through firsthand accounts, testimonies from law enforcement, survivors, community leaders, and personal narratives, Erika seeks to understand and move forward from the unthinkable events that forever changed her life and community.

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1. Introduction to the Trial

The episode opens with Officer Richard Steidel Thompson recounting his harrowing experience during the shooting from the witness stand.

[00:16] Officer Richard Steidel Thompson: "I knew immediately it was real. I got out, drew my handgun, and ran up to the front of the building."

Erika establishes the gravity of the situation, highlighting that Officer Steidel Thompson was among the first responders who confronted the shooter, ultimately impacting the course of the tragic event.

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2. The Shooter's Arrest and Initial Court Appearance

The narrative transitions to the immediate aftermath of the shooting. The shooter, Ahmad Alyssa, is apprehended after an hour-long pursuit. His initial court appearance is fraught with uncertainty as his defense requests a mental health evaluation, leading to his temporary classification as incompetent to stand trial due to severe schizophrenia.

[03:59] Doug McKnight: "Why?
[04:00] Erica Mahoney: I remember thinking, why not just plead guilty? Why put us through this after everything we'd already endured?"

Erika shares personal reflections on the emotional toll the trial preparation had on her and other victims' families, emphasizing the collective trauma they continue to navigate.

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3. Opening Statements: Prosecution vs. Defense

Prosecution's Case

Michael Dougherty, the Boulder County District Attorney, presents a detailed account of the shooter's premeditation and the methodical execution of the attack.

[08:33] Michael Dougherty: "The shopping center at Table Mesa is a busy place... On that day, the People inside the supermarket have no idea what's about to happen."

He utilizes surveillance footage and other evidence to illustrate the calculated nature of the massacre, aiming to establish the defendant's intent and awareness of his actions.

[13:14] Michael Dougherty: "He starts shopping for these things... What you see [the defendant] was looking for because he's looking to commit a mass shooting."

Defense's Case

Representing Ahmad Alyssa, Sam Dunn argues for an insanity defense, asserting that Alyssa's untreated schizophrenia impaired his ability to discern right from wrong.

[15:32] Officer Richard Steidel Thompson: "In Syrian culture, one of the things that sometimes mental illness is confused with is demon possession... It was one of the many symptoms Ahmad was experiencing due to his untreated, severe form of schizophrenia."

Dunn emphasizes Alyssa's mental state leading up to the shooting, aiming to demonstrate that his actions were not a result of free will but of a debilitating mental illness.

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4. Host's Personal Journey Through the Trial

Erika Mahoney provides an intimate glimpse into her personal struggles during the trial, balancing her role as a mother and a survivor seeking closure.

[06:39] Doug McKnight: "Good morning, this is 21cr497."
[06:42] Erica Mahoney: "Judge Ingrid Bakke sits up front behind the raised bench... We find our seats surrounded by families we've grown close to over the past few years, collectively sharing this unimaginable trauma and grief."

Erika describes the emotional landscape of the courtroom, the presence of fellow victims' families, and the collective yearning for justice and understanding.

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5. Witness Testimonies and Survivor Stories

Throughout the three-week trial, numerous witnesses, including law enforcement officers, store employees, and survivors, take the stand to recount their experiences.

Officer Brian Capobianco shares footage from his body camera, providing a raw and unfiltered perspective of the chaos within the store.

[23:04] Michael Dougherty: "What was the reason you didn't want to wait?"
[23:15] Erica Mahoney: "I was open to about half the store... we couldn't get to it right now."

Alon Ri Shakti, a shopper in her 70s, recounts her struggle to escape and the physical injuries she sustained.

[24:18] Doug McKnight: "I just said, God, I hope you're ready for me, because I think this is it."
[24:28] Erica Mahoney: "She said she couldn't get up or move her arms. Later, she'd find out she broke her back."

These testimonies underscore the randomness and brutality of the attack, painting a vivid picture of the terror experienced by those inside King Soopers that fateful day.

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6. Victim Impact Statements

One of the most poignant segments features Nikolina Stanisich, the sister of Nevin Stanisich, one of the victims. She highlights Nevin's humanity and the irreplaceable loss felt by his family.

[41:36] Doug McKnight: "I think it's important to talk about who Nevin was... His life had been cut short."

Another heart-wrenching statement comes from Madelyn Talley, daughter of Officer Eric Talley, who lost her father in the attack.

[47:12] Doug McKnight: "I was 16 at the time and didn't realize the gravity of the situation... because the defendant took that away from him."

These statements serve as a testament to the enduring pain and the profound impact the shooting has had on the families and the community.

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7. The Verdict and Sentencing

After weeks of testimonies and emotional testimonies, the jury delivers a unanimous verdict, finding Ahmad Alyssa guilty of multiple counts of first-degree murder.

[40:04] Doug McKnight: "Jury verdict count number one, as to Nevin Stanisch. We the jury find the defendant Ahmad Alyssa, guilty of count number one, murder in the first degree."

Following the verdict, Michael Dougherty emphasizes the irrefutable nature of the evidence presented.

[37:13] Officer Richard Steidel Thompson: "What happened on March 22nd of 2021 is not a mystery."

The sentencing phase culminates with the judge handing down the maximum penalty—ten consecutive life terms without the possibility of parole.

[48:21] Doug McKnight: "When I signed up to be a judge... one would wish that you wouldn't need instruction on how you address so many victims of such a horrendous crime."

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8. Reflections on Justice and Healing

Erika grapples with the concept of justice, recognizing that while the verdict provides a sense of closure, it doesn't erase the profound loss and trauma endured.

[47:48] Erica Mahoney: "True justice is putting an end to mass shootings in America."

She also shares her personal journey towards healing, utilizing therapies like Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) to process her trauma.

[31:47] Erica Mahoney: "Angela helps me get to the root of my pain... And I needed to hear that. I'm Erica Mahoney, and this is Senseless."

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9. Conclusion and Moving Forward

As the trial concludes, Erika reflects on the resilience of the Boulder community and the shared strength among survivors and families.

[49:38] Erica Mahoney: "I never expected the trial to bring closure because it couldn't bring my dad back. But it has put the pieces of a very complicated puzzle together in a way that brings a sense of understanding, of facing it and surviving."

The episode wraps up with Erika acknowledging the ongoing journey toward healing and the collective commitment to preventing such tragedies in the future.

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Key Takeaways

• Premeditation of the Shooter: The trial revealed that Ahmad Alyssa meticulously planned the shooting, researching previous mass shootings and amassing significant weaponry.

• Insanity Defense: The defense presented serious mental health concerns, arguing that severe untreated schizophrenia impaired Alyssa's judgment and understanding of his actions.

• Emotional Toll on Families: Victims' families shared deeply personal and heartbreaking stories, emphasizing the enduring trauma and loss caused by the massacre.

• Community Resilience: Despite the unimaginable pain, the Boulder community showcased remarkable strength and solidarity in the face of tragedy.

• Justice vs. Healing: While the legal verdict provided a form of justice, the personal journey toward healing remains ongoing for Erika and the affected families.

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Notable Quotes

• Officer Richard Steidel Thompson:

  "[00:16] I knew immediately it was real. I got out, drew my handgun, and ran up to the front of the building."

• Michael Dougherty:

  "[08:33] The shooter is sitting in this black car right here... On that day, the People inside the supermarket have no idea what's about to happen."

• Sam Dunn (Defense Attorney):

  "[16:27] You're hearing screaming voices that you don't know the source of inside your own mind that no one else is hearing... Can't tell right from wrong."

• Nikolina Stanisich:

  "[41:36] Nevin was not just another statistic... His life had been cut short."

• Doug McKnight:

  "[45:15] Why shouldn't he get a life sentence? I have been sentenced to a life without my mom."

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"The Trial" serves as a powerful exploration of the legal proceedings following one of America's most tragic mass shootings. Through Erika Mahoney's meticulous reporting and personal reflections, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the pursuit of justice, the complexities of mental health defenses, and the enduring impact on a community striving to heal.

Transcript

[Erica Mahoney]

Lemonade. This podcast relives an account of gun violence and the trauma that follows. Please take care when listening.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

I knew immediately it was real. I got out, drew my handgun, and ran up to the front of the building.

[Erica Mahoney]

This is Boulder Police Officer Richard Steidel Thompson talking from the witness stand during the trial of the young man who shot and killed 10 people at a King Soopers grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, on March 22, 2021. Steidel was one of the many officers who responded and among the first to go into the store. What follows are portions of his testimony.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

I just remember, like, motivating the crew, like, hey, it's an active shooter. We gotta get in there. Let's get a team going. Something along those lines. And we formed a team and walked in. Music in the store was going, but other than that, it was quiet. It was super quiet, which was weird to me because when we go through our active shooter trainings, they crank up the screaming music. They have people screaming. They have role players. There's people coming out with gunshot wounds or fake gunshot wounds on their arms, stuff that you can treat. They have all this extra stimulus for you to prep you with, you know, going in there and dealing with it. This one was different, where it was just. It was quiet. So everybody's head was on a swivel. That's when a gunman emerged from the back of the store. Down my line of sight. Quickly emerged. Somebody yelled, there he is. And then I just remember hearing gunshots. The glass behind me blew up. And then I saw the threat happen so fast down the aisle. To me at the time, it looked like a football field, it was so far away. Immediately shot one to two rounds. I immediately dropped to the prone position, which is laying on my stomach. I wish I had a rifle that day, but I had what I was issued and what I was proficient in, and I had my handgun. I felt outgunned, that's for sure. I waited. I waited. Felt like forever. And that's when the gunman in the back of the store emerged again. And at that point, I shot maybe five to ten rounds down the aisle.

[Erica Mahoney]

Officer Steidel wouldn't know this until later, but he ended up hitting the shooter in the right leg. The shooter surrendered and was taken into custody by SWAT agents one hour after he first started shooting in the parking lot and then entered the store. The reign of terror was finally over, but the long, drawn out judicial process was only just beginning. The gunman first appeared in court three days later in a wheelchair from his injured leg. Wearing a blue jumpsuit, he didn't enter a plea. Instead, his public defender asked for more time for a mental health evaluation, which found him incompetent to stand trial. So for the next two years, he lived at the state psychiatric hospital, which houses some of the most mentally ill patients in Colorado. Initially, he refused treatment, but once he was put on medication that successfully stabilized his schizophrenia, doctors determined he was competent to stand trial. When it came time to face more than 60 charges, he pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity.

[Doug McKnight]

Why?

[Erica Mahoney]

I remember thinking, why not just plead guilty? Why put us through this after everything we'd already endured? Now we have to relive it all. In some ways, the days leading up to the trial were the hardest. The unknown felt suffocating. I exchanged voice memos with Olivia McKenzie, who lost her mom in the shooting. Hey, Erica, I just wanted to check in on you. I just called Logan and I was just in such tears.

[Doug McKnight]

And he actually said, why don't you ask Erica? And I thought that was a really good idea.

[Erica Mahoney]

And it was because it's been a really hard week. It's been hard leading up to this. We finally got into Boulder this morning. Hey, I'm just processing everything you just said. I'm not doing well either. I'm really struggling. I have had a busy week working on the podcast, which is kind of both a blessing and a curse. And just maybe compounding the problems. I'm just trying to, you know, compartmentalize in a way. Like, I've had a lot of interviews and so I'm just gonna get. For the rest of this episode, I'm going to share the story of what happened during the three week trial. I want to be clear that this is my perspective. I'm not offering any attempt at journalistic balance. I don't even like saying the gunman's name. But I'll do it now so you can follow the story. His name is Ahmad Alyssa, and his trial finally began on September 5, 2024, 1,263 days, or about three and a half years after the mass shooting. I'm dizzy and lightheaded, driving to the Boulder County justice center in the heart of downtown. I park and walk up to the courthouse. My heart is pounding as I open the front door and make my way through the metal detector. It hits me then. This is real life. My mom is waiting on the other side of the metal detector. My brother decided not to attend the trial. He's a doctor and wanted to spend his time working, serving his patients. We quietly shuffle into Courtroom G, which has wood paneled walls and a magenta colored carpet. Police officers line the back row. We find our seats surrounded by families we've grown close to over the past few years, collectively sharing this unimaginable trauma and grief. Despite our differences, we've always been there for each other. And we're here for each other now.

[Doug McKnight]

Good morning, this is 21cr497.

[Erica Mahoney]

Judge Ingrid Bakke sits up front behind the raised bench. With flags overhead, she looks regal in her black robe and pearl necklace, composed but commanding.

[Doug McKnight]

All right, let the record reflect that Mr. Alyssa is present.

[Erica Mahoney]

The gunman, wearing a button down shirt, sits at the defense table on the right side of the room, facing the judge's bench. He keeps turning around and looking at everyone. I don't want to look at him, but this curiosity about the man who killed my dad is undeniable. And I catch myself staring, trying to understand his mannerisms. I don't know much about the gunman, except for an article I read about him and his family in the New York Times. It's called An Immigrant Family Caught up in a Distinctly American Tragedy. The article was hard to read because it reminded me he's a human being too, with a family and history. I learned he has a big family, that they came from Syria and settled in a Denver suburb. They own a Middle Eastern restaurant where he worked. He was 21 years old at the time of the shooting. Now he's 25.

[Doug McKnight]

Let's rise for the jury.

[Erica Mahoney]

The jury walks in.

[Doug McKnight]

Please have a seat.

[Erica Mahoney]

16 men and women with stoic expressions on their faces. I feel a swell of emotion, of gratitude and love for these strangers. They stepped into a role few expect or ever forget.

[Doug McKnight]

All right. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. We are set to start with opening statements as I described to you yesterday. So we'll begin with the people. Mr. Dougherty.

[Erica Mahoney]

Michael Dougherty, the Boulder County District Attorney who pledged to fight for justice from day one. A man all the families came to know deeply. To me, he's a steady kind of superhero. He addresses the jury.

[Michael Dougherty]

The shopping center at Table Mesa is a busy place. There are popular stores, restaurants and businesses all throughout the shopping center. And it's a crowded parking lot, so it's the perfect target for a mass shooter.

[Erica Mahoney]

He points to a map of the Table Mesa shopping center on a big screen up front.

[Michael Dougherty]

It's 2:25pm on Monday afternoon. The shooter is sitting in this black car right here. He went there to kill as many people as he possibly could. On that day, the People inside the supermarket have no idea what's about to happen.

[Erica Mahoney]

I think about my dad just going grocery shopping that ordinary Monday afternoon, unaware that it would be the last thing he'd do on this earth, that he'd go to return his shopping cart and end up running for his life. DA Dougherty gestures to the screen again. This time, surveillance footage from inside the store plays. There's no sound, just people pushing their carts through the aisles. It's eerie. A chill runs down my spine.

[Michael Dougherty]

In some ways, that video clip is amongst the hardest to watch because we know what's about to happen. They have no idea. The people who are leaving the store at 2:25, 2:26 that afternoon will live. The people you see turning down an aisle because they forgot a bag of chips or they want more cereal for their kids, they'll have a few extra seconds when the gunfire starts to run for their lives. And the people you see moving to the registers and to check out are about to face death. The victims are completely random, but the murders were absolutely planned, deliberate and intentional. Because before 2:25pm the shooter had taken his rifle bag that he had purchased. He loaded his assault rifle, his ammunition, his handgun, his handgun, ammunition, and his carrier vest into his car. And you're gonna see that from a ring camera on the neighbor's house. And you're gonna see the shooter head out to his car and open the back door, put the bag in, close the back door and get in the front door of his car. You're gonna be able to see all of it. It's gonna look like someone heading to the gym or heading to the office or you heading to the courthouse.

[Erica Mahoney]

This morning at 2:29pm, the terror begins. Doherty talks about each person who was killed that day, showing their pictures. He describes who they were and where they were.

[Michael Dougherty]

Nevin is 23 years old. He's part of a close, loving immigrant family, and they had moved to the United States for a better life. Nevin lives with his parents and his sister, and he actually works with his dad. And he was back in his work van when this started. He had just fixed the espresso machine inside the Starbucks located in king Soopers. Nevin's 23. He'll never see 24.

[Erica Mahoney]

Then Dougherty says my dad's name, and it knocks the air out of my lungs.

[Michael Dougherty]

This is Kevin Mahoney. Kevin is 61 years old. He's a loving husband, father and grandfather. And like many other people, he went to King Soopers very often. He went there all the time. It was his bus, his spot, his store. And on this particular day, when Kevin was walking out, he ended up walking out at the same time as a woman he had never met before. They were strangers, but they had a funny exchange and they ended up getting to their cars at the same time. They both happened to park right next to one another. And as he was loading his stuff in his car and she's loading stuff in her car, she makes a joke and Kevin smiles and laughs. And then he walks off to return his cart to the cart return area. And when that woman who Kevin was laughing with in just a few minutes is frantically trying to escape the parking lot, she's going to do her very best to not run over Kevin's dead body. This is Tralona Bokowiak.

[Erica Mahoney]

One by one, in the order they were killed. Nevin, my dad, Trelona, Ricky, Denny, Lynn, Terry, Jody, Suzanne, then Officer Talley. Each juror is transfixed on Doherty's opening statement as he lays out the case that this was a premeditated attack, that the gunman researched other mass shootings and the deadliest type of bullet.

[Michael Dougherty]

So January 1st, I imagine some of the victims woke up saying, I'm going to go to the gym more, I'm going to read more. I'm going to spend more time with my loved ones. He woke up January 1st and started planning a mass shooting. When I say he looked at an overwhelming number, 6,000 images of guns, ammo and equipment that he's looking for because he's looking to commit a mass shooting that also includes bomb making materials, ladies and gentlemen. He starts looking at images of bomb making materials. The number of those images, 400. He takes it one step further. He starts shopping for these things.

[Erica Mahoney]

Doherty says the gunman knew exactly what he was doing and knew it was wrong.

[Michael Dougherty]

And when you ask yourself in deliberations, does the defendant know the difference between wrong and right, you'll ask yourself this question. What did he do when they demanded that he surrender? He put down the gun, he put down the ammo, he put down the handgun and the handgun ammo. He takes off the carrier vest, he takes off his shirt, and he takes off his pants. And he's just in his underwear and he puts his hands up. And in response to law enforcement demanding that he surrender, he says, I surrender. I give up. The police can't hear it, I. Because he's still off to the side. But the people hiding in the pharmacy praying that they're not going to get killed, they hear him say, I surrender. I Give up.

[Erica Mahoney]

During his arrest in the parking lot, he repeatedly asked to call his mom. And that's always stayed with me. The central question in this trial isn't whether the defendant committed this horrific act. It's whether he understood what he was doing when he did it. Under Colorado law, a person is considered legally insane if, quote, their mind was so diseased or impaired at the time of the crime that they couldn't tell right from wrong. The defense sets out to prove the gunman couldn't tell the difference. They point to an onset of mental illness that they argued made the gunman incapable of understanding what he was doing. This is Sam Dunn of the Colorado public Defender's office. During his opening statement, he represents the gunman.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

In Syrian culture, one of the things that sometimes mental illness is confused with is demon possession, specifically what we call a jinn. That's when we stopped what was going on. He thought his son might have been possessed by a gym. Sadly, tragically, we know now that wasn't the case. It wasn't demon possession. It was one of the many symptoms Ahmad was experiencing due to his untreated, severe form of schizophrenia. He put tape over the camera. You heard testimony that he did the same thing to one of his cell phones. This goes beyond data security awareness. This is one of a constellation of symptoms.

[Erica Mahoney]

Dunn says his client's schizophrenia began to reveal itself in the three years leading up to the shooting.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

You're hearing screaming voices that you don't know the source of inside your own mind that no one else is hearing. You're not talking to anyone about it. You're not having anyone treat you for it. Your reality is not the reality of the world. It's the reality of the illness in your mind.

[Erica Mahoney]

Then he asks the jury this.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

Does that sound like someone who is saying, does that sound like someone who is capable of distinguishing right from wrong?

[Erica Mahoney]

It was only the first day, and I was already exhausted. After the opening statements, all the families gathered in a spot we called the Family Room. There was food provided by King Soopers and local restaurants, plus, on the spot therapy and care packages from the Boulder Strong Resource Center. It included small tokens with messages that read, you are not alone. You are loved. Over the next three weeks, I ride a relentless roller coaster of emotions as dozens of people take the stand. It's both brutal and beautiful. Brutal in the details, beautiful in the strength it took to speak them aloud. And beautiful, too, in what I learn. That survivors helped each other amid all the chaos and panic. And with each witness, the full web of pain is pulled into the light. That's after the break. I'm Erika Mahoney and this is Senseless. We'll get right back to the show, but first a message from our important sponsor, Quince. As summer winds down, I love refreshing my wardrobe with a few staple pieces for fall. Quince is perfect for those luxe essentials that feel effortless and look polished. Everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands, and Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices, plus premium fabrics and finishes. Think chic Cashmere and cotton sweaters Starting at just $40, washable silk tops and classic denim pants. I'm so excited for the 100% organic cropped cotton polo sweater I just ordered. I can pair it with a skirt or jeans to dress it up or down. I'm also eyeing all the adorable kids clothes for back to school, including colorful and cute backpacks and lunchboxes. Elevate your fall wardrobe essentials with quints. Go to quince.comsenseless for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com senseless to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.comsenseless tired of the same old political shouting matches and talking points? Looking for thoughtful conversations that go beyond the headlines and help you understand issues that matter? I'm Sarah. And I'm Beth. Together we host Page Pantsuit Politics, a podcast where we bring grace, nuance and perspective to the news because democracy deserves more than hot takes. Join us as we approach politics and current events with curiosity, empathy and a commitment to understanding the bigger picture. If you want to stay informed without the anxiety, we're the show for you. New episodes drop on Tuesdays and Fridays. Subscribe to Pantsuit Politics wherever you get your podcast. As the trial went on, so did life. Brant had work, my daughter had preschool, and I had a baby boy to take care of. It was jarring to flip a switch to go from trial mode to mom mode. Not long in, I needed to debrief everything with the person I turned to for Life Advice, Doug McKnight. He and I work together at the NPR station in California and talk on the phone all the time. Hi.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

Hi there. I was concerned about you and just.

[Doug McKnight]

Wanted to find out how you're doing.

[Erica Mahoney]

Yeah, thank you.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

My wife, June always quotes the airlines when she says, you know, make sure you put the mask on you first. What are you doing for yourself during this to your own care I feel.

[Erica Mahoney]

Like I'm living in two separate worlds, and I'm doing my best to be there for my kids, but it's super hard. Like, I'm lying to her every morning. I'm like, mommy's going to work, and then I'm, you know, having to arrange childcare. And I have so much mom guilt for my baby boy. And.

[Doug McKnight]

It'S.

[Erica Mahoney]

This isn't the American dream. I mean, I'm a young mom trying my best, and I don't think I should be asked to go from the courtroom to, you know, the carpet on my living room floor with toys scattered across it and be okay. You know? I'm not okay.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

It isn't the America. Certainly not the America I knew when I grew up. I'd go into a school or a grocery store or a church and just randomly shoot people.

[Erica Mahoney]

Doug reminded me to slow down. I couldn't always be in court, and sometimes I didn't want to be. Thankfully, all the proceedings were streamed live online, so I could tune in from home. Over the three week trial, more than 50 witnesses were called to testify, mostly for the prosecution. DA Dougherty called Officer Brian Capobianco to the stand during week two of the trial. Footage from his body cam was played in court without the sound. I filed an open records request to get the audio.

[Doug McKnight]

All right, looks like we have an active shooter of a white male, middle.

[Erica Mahoney]

Aged, dark hair, beard, black vest, shortly.

[Doug McKnight]

Seen in front of the key sticker, shot out a window of a van and pursued a man towards Broadway.

[Erica Mahoney]

From the witness stand, Officer Capo Bianco shares what happened next.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

I hesitate to use the word frantic.

[Michael Dougherty]

But your foot gets a little heavier when you're going to a call like that.

[Erica Mahoney]

He arrived on scene with Officer Eric Talley and Officer Pam Gignac. They were the first team to go inside the store.

[Michael Dougherty]

I just didn't want to wait. What was the reason you didn't want to wait? Because I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I was outside when another gunshot went off.

[Erica Mahoney]

So Capo Bianco said there wasn't enough cover.

[Michael Dougherty]

I was open to about half the store. Roughly more than I would have liked to have been. But that's what was in front of us.

[Erica Mahoney]

Then he saw Officer Talley down on the ground. Other officers took turns going in, trying to stop the threat. This is more sound from Capo Bianco's body cam.

[Michael Dougherty]

Who's down?

[Erica Mahoney]

I can't fit in.

[Michael Dougherty]

Who else came in with you?

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

Tally was inside.

[Doug McKnight]

Tally?

[Michael Dougherty]

Tally.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

We can't get to it right now. It's too open. We need access on the back door 36. I need the Teradine to come right to the front doors.

[Doug McKnight]

Stay with us. Pallet 136.

[Erica Mahoney]

Capo Bianco was one of a dozen officers to testify. Store employees and shoppers also took the stand, including Alon Ri Shakti, who was buying flowers for a friend when the gunfire rang out. She's in her 70s and fell while trying to escape.

[Doug McKnight]

I just said, God, I hope you're ready for me, because I think this is it.

[Erica Mahoney]

She said she couldn't get up or move her arms. Later, she'd find out she broke her back. Lying on the floor of the supermarket, she said another prayer. Please don't let me get stepped on. Then out of nowhere, someone else who was running out of the store stopped to help her.

[Doug McKnight]

Somebody jerked my arm, and I think that got me up off my chest enough that he wasn't expecting dead weight.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

I thought she was shot. I honestly wasn't sure what to think. Two different possibilities went through my head that, unfortunately, she had lost her life or she was injured. So I knew I at least had to check on her.

[Erica Mahoney]

That's Chris Tatum, the assistant deli manager at King Soopers. He was questioned by Assistant District Attorney Ken Kufner.

[Michael Dougherty]

Did you rush right to her?

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

Yes. Okay.

[Michael Dougherty]

What were your concerns as you approached her?

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

You know, she. She was somebody's grandma. That was my main thought. That's my grandma there. And so I. I picked her up. I wasn't really concerned about anything else, Was just getting her out. When I knew that she was still breathing and still okay, that's when I definitely picked her up as hard as I could. She was dead weight. She didn't have breath inside of her or the energy to pick herself back up. So I kind of just lifted her, luckily, and helped her out to the exit door.

[Erica Mahoney]

Throughout the store, people were hiding wherever they could. One woman, a local emergency room doctor named Allison Sheets, testified that she crawled into a shelf.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

Describe what happened after you were on.

[Michael Dougherty]

The shelf with the chips.

[Doug McKnight]

As I'd been skiing, I had a very bright yellow jacket on, so I knew I was rather conspicuous. And fortunately, many of the potato chips are colored yellow. I just hunkered in there as quietly and quickly as I could. I did look up just seconds after I hid and saw the gunman walk past the aisle that I was in. I looked away pretty quickly after that. I just didn't want to be seen in any way. And I just stayed in that position for quite some time, heard some gunshots and other things, and eventually was contacted by my spouse via phone.

[Erica Mahoney]

She and her husband were shopping together, but they separated inside the store to tackle their grocery list.

[Doug McKnight]

And my phone rang. It was in my ski pants pocket. The ring is unique. It's a bird call, not a regular phone ring. So I knew who was calling. It also was quite frightening because I thought it might blow my cover. So I immediately grabbed the phone and answered it and we had a very brief conversation. I told him where I was. I was alive and hiding and I couldn't talk and I turned my ringer off. And we did have a number of text exchanges after that. Over the course of the events, her.

[Erica Mahoney]

Husband had escaped out the back of the grocery store. From her hiding spot in the chips, she could hear gunfire and someone's last breath.

[Doug McKnight]

I heard someone die. Just a little breath of exhalation of someone collapsing and dying.

[Erica Mahoney]

Amid the crushing fear and heartbreak, a store employee showed up and hid near her in the chips. When everything was over, the officers searched for survivors.

[Doug McKnight]

Two officers walked past us and I said, two civilians in here. Two or something like that. I just indicated that there were people hiding.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

So the officers didn't see you in your hiding spot?

[Doug McKnight]

They did not.

[Erica Mahoney]

There was so much I learned as survivors recounted their harrowing stories. So much everyone in the courtroom will never forget, can never unsee. Like when an FBI crime scene investigator took the stand as part of her testimony. The weaponry the shooter had amassed was laid out on the floor in front of the jury, including the gun he used to kill my dad and nine other people purchased a week before from a gun shop near his family's restaurant. It looked enormous to me. Then she held up sealed evidence bags full of green tipped bullets which can penetrate steel, plus an optic for accuracy and aiming. Some of this stockpile was found on him, some in his car and the rest in his bedroom closet, including another gun he purchased through grabagun.com I'll never forget the moment the forensic pathologists testified about bullet trajectory. I wasn't in the courtroom. I had been there that morning, but left to pick up my daughter from preschool. I was sitting in my car outside the school listening to the livestream of the trial when the pathologist began describing my dad's wounds. One bullet had entered his back and exited his chest, grazing his ear on the way out. I felt nauseous. I knew he had been shot four times. I didn't know it happened like this. Then I had to pull myself together, walk to the playground and act like everything was okay. Still, nothing was worse than seeing the footage of my dad's final moments. Store surveillance captured 99% of it. I was sitting in the back row of the courtroom that day, sandwiched between my mom and a local investigative reporter. Up until this day, I clung to this idea that my dad never saw it coming. That as the second person killed, maybe, just maybe, he was oblivious to it all as he returned his shopping cart, shot while doing something so ordinary that he didn't feel fear. But it turns out that's not what happened. The video starts playing. There's Dad. I think it shows my dad running across the parking lot toward the main driveway of the store, but there was nowhere to hide. He tries to crouch behind a signpost. Then he puts his hands up, as if saying, please don't take me. I'm innocent. I want to scream. I'm sobbing uncontrollably loudly. I hear someone say. Quiet in the courtroom. Then the surveillance camera pans left, sparing us from seeing the moment he's actually shot. We break for a recess. I leave and decide to not come back for a few days. A shadow follows me home and blooms in every corner of my house. I drown my sorrow in red wine for nights on end. Later, I make a doctor's appointment because I'm spiraling. The doctor prescribes an antidepressant to help me cope. I also call a trauma therapist, one of the leaders on the grief retreat I had attended, Angela Schellenberg. She helps me process what I saw through emdr, or Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. It's a therapy that helps people heal from trauma. I'd heard of it before, but never tried it myself. Angela helps me get to the root of my pain. My dad's death was painful and scary. I can't change that because we can't change the past. But what Angela says is, he's okay now. He's safe. He's at peace. And I needed to hear that. I'm Erica Mahoney, and this is Senseless. More after the break.

[Doug McKnight]

Foreign Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft. This that's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and Good habits check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.

[Erica Mahoney]

As I worked on managing the trauma of seeing my dad's final moments and the way the gunman showed no mercy, I mostly stayed home. I needed to clear my mind from all the disturbing details I'd learned, like how the gunman made a list of potential targets on his phone that included big box stores and a popular bar in town. I kept recording the livestream and sometimes tuned in. What follows is my perspective of the defense's case. The defense called a handful of psychiatric doctors to the witness stand to prove their insanity defense. These doctors argued the gunman was deeply paranoid and suffering from untreated schizophrenia, and that this clouded his ability to understand reality. We never learned why he did it. We never learned why he chose this. King Soopers in South Boulder, 17 miles from his home. We never heard the defendant speak. It wasn't until some of his family members took the stand, showing up to fight for him, that I saw him show some emotion in court. I made it to the Justice Center. On a few of those days, I found it particularly difficult to see their pain. His family lost someone, too. On the stand, his parents and siblings painted this picture. A young man who descended into a world of paranoia, whose mental illness was untreated and unacknowledged because of cultural stigma and misunderstanding. This is defense attorney Sam Dunn questioning the gunman's father, Mustafa Alisa, through a translator.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

I'd ask you to just start by describing what Ahmad was like as a child.

[Michael Dougherty]

He was fun. He was intelligent. He had good manners. He was obedient, and he was a good son.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

And I want to talk to you about towards the end of Ahmad's high school years. Okay. When he was a teenager. Couldn't have a giant.

[Michael Dougherty]

Yeah, he was. He was good. But he had some issues with the classmates. They were bullying him because of his name, of his religion.

[Erica Mahoney]

The father spoke about his son's delusions that surfaced after high school. He saw him talking to someone who wasn't there. And he told me, why didn't you go to my.

[Michael Dougherty]

To my. To my room to talk to the guy who was in my.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

In my room?

[Erica Mahoney]

I told him, your bedroom.

[Michael Dougherty]

No one is in your bedroom. Your bedroom door is open, and no one is in there.

[Erica Mahoney]

The gunman's mother, Khadija Elisa, also testified about his mental decline through a translator. She said he started to isolate himself. The day before the shooting was Mother's Day in Arabic countries.

[Doug McKnight]

And while your whole family is there and you're celebrating mother's day is Ahmad being isolated and not talking with you all? Yeah.

[Erica Mahoney]

I mean, he was isolated from 2020.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

And before COVID and during COVID he.

[Michael Dougherty]

Was isolated and would not speak with anyone unless we would all come and.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

Speak with him and, you know, try.

[Michael Dougherty]

To laugh and to try to engage Ahmed, but like, he was not aware what was happening.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

He was alone. And we would call him and he would say, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then.

[Michael Dougherty]

Get back to what he was doing.

[Erica Mahoney]

The next morning, the morning of the shooting, he had breakfast with his family. His mom said he looked like a homeless person, and she asked him to shave and get a haircut. She left to go shopping and he was supposed to go to the barber. That was the last time his parents saw him until now. At times on the witness stand, the family members got caught in contradiction, specifically on whether they knew he had a gun. The testimony wrapped on a Wednesday. Closing arguments happened that Friday. The prosecution went first. Here's assistant district attorney Ken Kufner, who delivered the closing argument.

[Michael Dougherty]

The evidence in this case straightforward.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

What happened on March 22nd of 2021 is not a mystery.

[Doug McKnight]

Was on video right now.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

I can press play. I could play that eight minute compilation video that you saw last Friday.

[Doug McKnight]

The eight minutes of horror, the eight.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

Minutes showing in detail how this defendant executed 10 people, including a police officer at the table. Mesa King supers. I don't have to hit flood.

[Doug McKnight]

I don't have to hit play because.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

Unfortunately, none of you will ever forget what he did.

[Erica Mahoney]

Then it was the defense's turn. With Katherine Harold, a lead attorney with the Colorado public Defender's office.

[Doug McKnight]

Insanity is the only explanation for this tragedy. Mr. Dunn. And I told you from the very beginning, what happened on March 22nd of 2021 was a tragedy. There are no words that any of us can say that could properly express the extent of that tragedy. A tragedy my client cost. But what we know is that this tragedy was born out of disease, not choice. What we know is that Mr. Alissa committed these crimes because he was psychotic and delusional.

[Erica Mahoney]

And then the jury began deliberating. Now it was the waiting game. When Monday came around, I doubted the decision on the charges would come in fast, so I tried to relax. Around midday, though, my phone blew up with texts. Verdicts were in. I got dressed as quickly as I could. The judge gave us an hour to get to the courthouse. When I got on the highway, I was driving fast. I heard my dad's voice. Voice, slow down. You're gonna make it. I found a parking spot in the Back of the lot and literally ran inside. I met my mom, just threw the metal detector. The energy was electric in the courthouse. The fact the jury reached a decision in less than 24 hours was hopeful. But no one really knew which way this was going. My mom and I slid into a back row right in front of the row reserved for reporters. The entire courtroom held its breath as Judge Bakke began speaking.

[Doug McKnight]

All right. Jury verdict count number one, as to Nevin Stanisch. We the jury find the defendant Ahmad Alyssa, guilty of count number one, murder in the first degree.

[Erica Mahoney]

An audible sigh. This collective exhale was so intense, I could barely hear the verdict when the judge said my dad's name, because it became clear very quickly that the gunman would be found guilty on all counts. I started shaking and crying and put my head down between my legs.

[Doug McKnight]

Jury verdict count number two, as to Kevin Mahoney. We the jury find the defendant Amadalissa guilty of count number two, murder in the first degree.

[Erica Mahoney]

Indicating. The relief this moment brought was far beyond anything I'd expected to feel. For me, it wasn't so much about the fate of the man who killed my dad. It was about the jury and our community standing up and saying this was wrong. On the night after the shooting, I remember laying in bed and imagining myself speaking in court to the shooter. I wanted to tell him that I wished he'd gotten more love in his life. Because then maybe none of this would have happened. Finally, my chance to tell him that was here. It was time for the victim impact statements. DA Michael Dougherty introduced us on behalf.

[Michael Dougherty]

Of the family of Nevin Stanisich. I'm going to call up Nikolina Stanisich, please.

[Doug McKnight]

Thank you.

[Erica Mahoney]

Nevin's little sister.

[Doug McKnight]

I think it's important to talk about who Nevin was. Nevin is not just another statistic of people who have lost their lives in a mass shooting. Nevin was also a person. Nevin had a life that he loved. He had people who he cherished and things he loved doing. He was just like any of us sitting in this courtroom today. The only thing is his life had been cut short.

[Erica Mahoney]

Next, my mom and I went up together.

[Doug McKnight]

I believe that everything we do in a lifetime matters. And we are accountable for the many right and wrong choices we make. There is no escaping it. I believe we are meant to be kind, respect others and do good in the world. Two wrongs never make a right. I miss my husband and my two children. Ms. Their dad.

[Erica Mahoney]

It bothered me when the defense attorney said, there are no words when Describing the pain and suffering. There are words, so many words to choose from. Words that span language barriers. How about I'm sorry? If we've never been denying he did it, then where's an apology? An iota of remorse from the defendant or his family would have gone a long way. The door is still open. Until then, I will start. I'm sorry for your suffering, past, present and future. As I said earlier, I wish you would have gotten more love. The saddest thing is, had you pulled into the parking lot of King Soopers that day without a gun, gotten out of your car and instead screamed, I need help. My father would have been the first one at your side. He would have helped you like he helped me and so many others.

[Doug McKnight]

He would have shown you love.

[Erica Mahoney]

Then Chlona's mom, Star Barkowiak, spoke. She calls her daughter Lana.

[Doug McKnight]

It took months to get past waking up and wishing it was a bad dream. Then realized it was just another shitty day. Learning to live with this broken heart that just doesn't heal the tears. I cry because I want her back. My entire family will never be the same. We mourn and continue to mourn. There is always emptiness that is unspoken.

[Erica Mahoney]

After that, Bob Olds, Ricky's uncle While.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

My niece, Ricky Olds, and the other.

[Michael Dougherty]

Nine victims you murdered suffered unimaginable terror, pain and horror, it will fall far.

[Doug McKnight]

Short of the suffering and eternal damnation.

[Officer Richard Steidel Thompson]

That you will experience in hell.

[Erica Mahoney]

DA Dougherty read an emailed statement from the parents of Denny Stong.

[Michael Dougherty]

I will say, just to put it in context, as the court will recall from opening statements and also from the evidence, Lisa Allen, Denny's mom, worked at King Soopers, and she was there that day. She was out in her car having lunch during her lunch break when her son Denny was gunned down brutally in the front area of King Soopers. And Lisa Allen asked me to pass along the following to the court. I lost nine people I knew and worked with that day. The hardest was my son, Denny Stong. He was on his way to being a pilot. He was going to fly us everywhere. The defendant shot him in the back. The defendant is a coward.

[Erica Mahoney]

Then it was Olivia McKenzie's turn. She spoke about the joy of having such a magical mom in Lynn Murray and the added sorrow of losing her father not long after the shooting. And briefly, I want to say a piece on sentencing.

[Doug McKnight]

Why shouldn't he get a life sentence? As a friend put this to me the other day, he has given me and all of us a life sentence. I've been sentenced To a life without my mom. And now my dad.

[Erica Mahoney]

He has given us a life sentence.

[Doug McKnight]

Robbing us of family.

[Erica Mahoney]

Why should he get any less? Next, it was Margie's turn. She's Terri Leiker's mom. Terri was born with mild brain damage. Terri was a clerk at the Table Mesa King Supers for more than 30 years.

[Doug McKnight]

She loved many people. Her VA drivers, co workers, customers, and her friends. She especially loved her immediate family and her extended family. And they loved her. She was almost always, like I said, happy, smiling, content in her own skin. She was very outgoing, Loved travel, flying, and having fun.

[Erica Mahoney]

Then it was Denise Denel's turn. She's a friend of Jody Waters.

[Doug McKnight]

Jody was my person and to so many others. But now she is gone. And how do we live without her? We were all supposed to grow old together, laughing most of the time throughout. But her laughter was silenced. So senseless. So unnecessary. So preventable.

[Michael Dougherty]

Your Honor, Suzanne Fountain was the ninth person killed by the defendant. Her family was here for most of the trial. They're not in the courtroom today, but I know they're watching online. They don't wish to make a statement to the court. I will just say that, like the other nine victims, Suzanne Fountain was a really incredible person. By all accounts, she was amazing, wonderful and talented. And we've been denied the privilege of ever meeting Suzanne Fountain because of the defendant.

[Erica Mahoney]

One of the last to speak was Madelyn Talley, one of officer Eric Talley's seven children.

[Doug McKnight]

I was 16 at the time and didn't realize the gravity of the situation. But over the next several years, it slowly began to sink in. My dad wasn't there when I earned my license. He wasn't there when I got my first job. He wasn't there for my 18th birthday. He wasn't there to interrogate my first boyfriend like he had always told me he would. Should I get married, he won't be there to walk me down the aisle. Should I have children, he won't be able to meet them. He wasn't there for any of those big steps in my life, and he won't be there for any future steps in my life, because he can't. Because the defendant took that away from him.

[Erica Mahoney]

What so many of the families asked for was justice. And that's what I believe the gunman got. Judge Bakke handed down the maximum sentence, including 10 consecutive life terms, without the possibility of parole. Now he'll have to live the rest of his life in a prison cell with the awareness and guilt that he committed a heinous crime. Still, to me, true justice is putting an end to mass shootings in America.

[Doug McKnight]

When I signed up to be a judge, they had no instruction for us in this type of a case. And thankfully so, because one would wish that you wouldn't need instruction on how to do a sentencing in this type of case. But unfortunately, that day has come that we need to start training judges on how you address so many victims of such a horrendous crime. It was not lost on me that I can't remember if it was the first day of jury selection or the first day of evidence that there was a shooting at a school. And then it was not lost on me that there was a shooting in Birmingham, Alabama. First thing I did was call my nephew and say, are you okay? He lives in Birmingham, Alabama. With that said, I don't want to take away from what all of you have said because that really is the most important thing here today.

[Erica Mahoney]

I never expected the trial to bring closure because it couldn't bring my dad back. But it has put the pieces of a very complicated puzzle together in a way that brings a sense of understanding, of facing it and surviving. Yet again, a chapter of this story was finally coming to a close, and I'm ready to start the next one. I'm Erica Mahoney, and this is Senseless. Coming up on Senseless, I meet a young woman who feels my dad saved her life that day in the parking lot. She wrote a letter to my family just a few months after the mass shooting.

[Doug McKnight]

I wanted to let you know that Kevin Mahoney is a hero in my eyes that day, whether he knew it or not, Kevin Mahoney saved my life.

[Erica Mahoney]

In the finale of How We Move Forward after the Unthinkable, Senseless is written and reported by me. Erica Mahoney, I'm your host and executive producer. Krista Almanzan is our senior producer and executive editor. Original music, sound design and mastering by Hannis Brown. Audio editing and sound mixing by Jeremiah Edding. This podcast was made possible by support from Community Foundation Boulder county and the Boulder County Arts Alliance. Special thanks to Sarah Contu, a senior investigator with the Boulder County District Attorney's Office and the lead investigator on the case. Case. She testified three times during the trial and helped me fact check numerous details in this episode. Thank you, Sarah. The episode was recorded by Erin Garrison at Coop Studios in Boulder, Colorado. Executive producers for Lemonada Media are Jessica Cordova Kramer and Stephanie Whittles Wax. If you haven't subscribed to Lemonada Premium yet, now's the perfect time, because guess what? You can listen completely, completely ad free. Plus, you'll unlock exclusive bonus content like premium episodes of Senseless that you won't hear anywhere else. Just tap that subscribe button on Apple Podcasts or head to lemonadapremium.com to subscribe on any other app. That's lemonadapremium.com don't miss out. And coming up in the seventh premium episode, a conversation with Boulder County District Attorney Michael Dougherty, who prosecuted the case.

[Michael Dougherty]

I would often, as we went through this journey, reflect upon how many people were doing their very best in response to the very worst that one person.

[Erica Mahoney]

Could inflict, insight into a prosecutor's mind and journey so often left out of the story. Listen to our conversation now with Lemonada Premium. I'm Erica Mahoney. See you next time.

[Doug McKnight]

Sam.