Michael R. Jackson

Summary

Podcast Title: Senses Working Overtime with David Cross

Episode: Michael R. Jackson

Release Date: June 26, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Background (00:00 - 05:00)

The episode kicks off with a light-hearted introduction where host David Cross welcomes Michael R. Jackson to the show. David humorously points out Michael's resemblance to Jake (a mutual acquaintance) and delves into Michael's connection with Lin-Manuel Miranda, highlighting their proximity in Washington Heights. Michael shares anecdotes about his friendship with Miranda, emphasizing his admiration for Miranda's kindness and talent.

David Cross: "If anybody ever looked like a Jake, it's this gentleman. You look so Jakeish to me. Thank you for coming."

Evolution of Comedy and Digital Impact (05:00 - 15:00)

The conversation shifts to the changing landscape of comedy, particularly the influence of digital platforms and artificial intelligence (AI). Both David and Michael express their frustrations with how modern stand-up comedians leverage algorithms and digital content creation, feeling it dilutes the purity and hard-earned craft of traditional stand-up.

Michael R. Jackson: "There's human AI and there's like digital AI and the digital AI is just mimicking us. Mimicking it. Mimicking us, Mickey."

They discuss the generational gap in comedy appreciation, with older comedians feeling alienated by the shortcuts digital platforms afford newer comedians. Michael touches on the rapid rise of multimillionaires on YouTube and streaming services, contrasting it with the traditional grind of touring and paying dues.

David Cross: "A lot of stand ups certainly have that same view. A lot of older standards."

Theater Insights and "A Strange Loop" (15:00 - 30:00)

Michael provides an in-depth look into his acclaimed work, "A Strange Loop," detailing its journey from conception to Broadway success. He shares the decade-long dedication required to develop the musical, starting from a monologue in grad school to its eventual Pulitzer and Tony awards. The discussion highlights the complexities of marketing in the modern era, where critical acclaim no longer guarantees box office success.

Michael R. Jackson: "It was longer than that. So I started working on a monologue called 'Why I Can't Get Work' right after I graduated from college. And that became the seed of the piece."

David reflects on the challenges of maintaining artistic integrity amid changing industry dynamics, acknowledging how award-winning shows now rely more on word-of-mouth than traditional marketing.

Influence of International Productions (30:00 - 40:00)

Michael recounts his experiences with international productions of "A Strange Loop," particularly the Canadian premiere. He contrasts the American and Canadian approaches to the show's humor and cultural references, noting that Canadian actors embraced stereotypes more freely, enhancing the comedic impact.

Michael R. Jackson: "They just sort of leaned into it even more, which I think was helpful because the audience in general, there is a different mindset about what was happening."

David and Michael discuss the variations in reception across different cultures, pondering how globalization affects the interpretation and appreciation of theater.

Favorite Shows and Personal Recommendations (40:00 - 55:00)

The duo shares their favorite theatrical productions, with Michael praising "Oh Mary" for its blend of old and new comedic elements. They delve into the nuances of what makes a show resonate, emphasizing the importance of intelligent humor and strong performances.

Michael R. Jackson: "Oh Mary, oh Mary, oh Mary, number one. Like, I've seen it six, seven times."

They also touch upon other favorite shows like "Happy Endings," discussing how contemporary themes and sophisticated humor contribute to their appeal. The conversation includes humorous interludes about sitcoms and soap operas, offering a nostalgic take on classic television.

Behind the Scenes: Marketing and Awards (55:00 - 65:00)

Michael discusses the unpredictable nature of theater marketing, critiquing how marketing departments can both elevate and undermine productions. He shares his experiences with award nominations, including losing the Grammy to Stephen Sondheim and the Olivier Award to Frank Lesser, emphasizing the competitive and often subjective nature of accolades in the arts.

Michael R. Jackson: "I lost the Grammy Award to Stephen Sondheim."

David reflects on the evolving significance of awards, noting that critical recognition no longer guarantees commercial success as it once did.

Personal Anecdotes and Final Thoughts (65:00 - End)

The conversation concludes with personal anecdotes, including Michael's time interning at "All My Children" and his experiences reading fan mail from prisoners. They discuss the impact of soap operas on their lives and the broader cultural landscape, blending humor with insightful reflections on media consumption.

Michael shares his current projects, including an opera titled "Complications in Sue," set to premiere in Philadelphia. He discusses the collaborative nature of opera production and his ongoing creative endeavors, showcasing his dedication to the craft.

Michael R. Jackson: "I am sort of, after three, like, many years of like, back to back shows, I'm sort of like back in my little laboratory."

In a light-hearted finale, David poses a whimsical question from his daughter about the varying number of days in each month, to which Michael responds with playful simplicity.

Michael R. Jackson: "Because I said so."

David wraps up the episode with gratitude, highlighting the collaborative efforts behind the podcast.

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Notable Quotes

• David Cross (02:50): "I have a T shirt that says board B O R E D of the soho rep."
• Michael R. Jackson (10:35): "I understand people have always gotten in through backwards doors and unfairness and nepotism and all those things."
• David Cross (58:59): "Tony Award winning, Pulitzer Prize winning, prize winning, Michael R. Jackson Grammy Award losing."

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Key Takeaways

1. Challenges in Modern Comedy: The shift towards digital platforms and AI in comedy creation is causing generational rifts, with established comedians feeling supplanted by digitally savvy newcomers.

2. Theatrical Journey of "A Strange Loop": Michael R. Jackson's dedication to "A Strange Loop" exemplifies the perseverance required in the arts, navigating from initial conception to critical acclaim amid changing industry standards.

3. Cultural Adaptation in International Productions: Productions like "A Strange Loop" adapt differently in international settings, with Canadian actors embracing broader stereotypes to enhance comedic effect.

4. Impact of Marketing and Awards: The evolving nature of theater marketing and the diminishing commercial impact of awards present new challenges and dynamics for modern productions.

5. Personal Experiences in Media: Michael's background in soap operas and his unique interactions with fan mail provide a behind-the-scenes look at the intersection of media and personal life.

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Conclusion

This episode of Senses Working Overtime with David Cross offers a rich exploration of the evolving landscapes of comedy and theater through the lens of Michael R. Jackson. From the gritty realities of modern stand-up to the intricate journey of an award-winning musical, listeners gain invaluable insights into the dedication and adaptability required in the performing arts. Notable for its humorous exchanges and profound discussions, the episode serves as an engaging guide for both enthusiasts and newcomers alike.

Transcript

[A]

This is a headgum podcast.

[B]

Sit there. Sure.

[A]

I mean, you don't have to.

[B]

Oh, yeah, no, I'll go.

[A]

Too late, too late, too late.

[B]

I'm here. I'm here.

[A]

Also, Michael, this is Jake.

[B]

Hey, Jake. How.

[A]

If anybody ever looked like a Jake, it's this gentleman. You look so Jakeish to me. Thank you for coming. Where are you coming in from?

[B]

Just from home.

[A]

Where's home?

[B]

Wash Heights.

[A]

Oh, okay. Are you. This is gonna sound like it's a joke, but it's not. Are you. Are you friendly with. Or do you. Are you neighbors with Lin Manuel Miranda?

[B]

Yeah, he lives right around the corner for me.

[A]

Does he really? That's awesome. And did you grow up there like he did?

[B]

No, no, no. I've lived there for 17 years. But no, I don't know.

[A]

Don't ask me. I'm not familiar.

[B]

Yeah, 17 years. I think it's been. But yeah, no, he's literally right around the corner in this building called Castle Village.

[A]

That's. I think that's. That's so awesome of him that he lives in the same exact place where he grew up, spend his whole life, and his family's there.

[B]

He's like a real. Like a neighborhood. Like, watch Heights. Yeah, like, dude, like, he's like a. Like a cheerleader.

[A]

I think that's cool. And he's a really good guy.

[B]

He's one of the kindest people I've ever met.

[A]

I'd never met him before. I did this. This thing on Broadway with him.

[B]

Were you an all in all? I don't know. I saw the first wave of People.

[A]

I had Annalee Ashford on here. She was here two days ago. And we'll talk about that in a second. But who was also in it. And man, what a treat. And, man, the guy could not be nicer.

[B]

Yeah, he's, like, super sweet.

[A]

Oh, well, look who decided to join us. He's like, well, well, well.

[B]

And he's, like, helped me personally on stuff. Like, it's like I owe him quite a lot.

[A]

Yeah, he's a good guy. All right. Thank you, Emma. And like yourself, a bit of a comedy nerd.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wait, am I a comedy nerd?

[A]

That's not a bad thing. It's not.

[B]

What do you mean by that?

[A]

Well, you like comedy? You like comedy that nerds like.

[B]

Wait, What?

[A]

Such as Mr. Show?

[B]

Yes, yes, done.

[A]

End of sentence. Okay, all right. When I. I don't mean nerd in a bad way.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[A]

At all.

[B]

Well, no, I'm not, like, I'm not like I wouldn't.

[A]

I'm a nerd. I'm a comedy nerd.

[B]

I mean, I like the comedy I like, but I never thought of myself as like a real connoisseur of it.

[A]

I didn't say you were a associate.

[B]

With the comedy nerd. Okay. Dumb.

[A]

An appreciation for it.

[B]

I do appreciate good comedy, and I.

[A]

Only know this because you told me as much.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But I also, like, hate a lot of comedy or feel. Or feel complicated about it, or like, don't understand the current era of it.

[A]

Well, that's because you're getting old.

[B]

Because I'm getting old. But also.

[A]

And you're in the arts.

[B]

I'm in the arts, but also, like the switch from linear to, like, digital.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is very confusing for me.

[A]

A lot of. A lot of stand ups certainly have that same view. A lot of older standards. Not even older. I mean, I'm older. I'm talking about, like, stand ups that are in their, like late 30s, early 40s, are. In fact, they're more vocal. I'm at the point where I'm like, yeah, whatever.

[B]

I mean, it's, you know, I mean, I. I just. To me, I'm not even like. It's not even about like, or don't like. It's just like I'm trying to understand it. Cause sometimes I look at. Cause now my algorithm is always sending me these people who I don't know, and I'm sort of like, wait, so you're digesting everything on Twitter and then repurpose and then you. So, like, when we talk about AI and ChatGPT and shit, I'm like, you're doing it. Like, when I think about AI, we were doing it first, and then how.

[A]

Are we doing it?

[B]

Meaning, like one, I feel like it's a snake chasing its tail. Like, there's. I feel like there's human AI and there's like digital AI and the digital AI is just mimicking us. Mimicking it. Mimicking us, Mickey. It goes around in a circle. And so like these people who just gobble everything up on the Internet to then go do their sets.

[A]

I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.

[B]

So, like, if you're mad at AI.

[A]

You'Re already doing it Figuratively, not literally.

[B]

Yeah, I guess AI is just filling. It's just like filling. It's like, oh, there's a market for this.

[A]

Well, the A in AI is artificial, so that will, you know, that says everything.

[B]

But the leap from what I came up on to this New thing. I'm just like, oh, that happened.

[A]

Well, that's again, that's part of the, I want to say frustration and I guess what, what's the right word? Like some of these comics, I'm gonna say like in between the ages of like 38 and 47, let's say that are, are. I think there's a bit of jealousy because of the shortcuts that people are allowed to take.

[B]

100%. I mean, the people who have become like these multimillionaires overnight on YouTube is enraging.

[A]

Yeah. Yes, I agree.

[B]

But at the same time that it's enraging, I don't want to do that because then I would have to be that.

[A]

Right? Well, the frustration comes in, I think in part. And I've talked to. I don't feel as strongly about it as some of these other guys and women, you know, guys just general, who get really kind of angry at the. It's sort of, it's akin to my generation of stand ups feelings towards back in the day when people would get into stand up so they could get on a sitcom.

[B]

Right?

[A]

And there was a lot of that. I don't think. You don't really see that anymore. And also sitcoms don't hold the weight that they used to.

[B]

And the ones that exist are terrible.

[A]

Well, they were back then too, for the most part, per capita.

[B]

But some. Yes, but the great ones were great.

[A]

Yeah, for sure. But there were, you know, there was.

[B]

A lot of garbage.

[A]

There was a lot of garbage and a lot of apples. A lot of shitty apples in the garbage. Filled with the garbage is apples and some of them are. Okay, so there's shitty apples in the garbage, but the garbage itself is all apples. So why even mention the garbage? Because we know that's okay. That's on me. Let's use another fruit. Clementines.

[B]

I love the clementine.

[A]

Who doesn't? Well, there are some people and the acid doesn't. They don't react well to the acidic nature of it. But all right, fuck it. We'll use a different fruit. Pear. A Bosch pear.

[B]

I'm indifferent to pears.

[A]

Oh my God.

[B]

Grapes. Everybody loves grapes.

[A]

No, I don't like grapes.

[B]

You don't like grapes?

[A]

What's wrong with you? I don't dislike grapes. I'm just not that into grapes. Okay, what's your favorite? I'm sorry, what's your least favorite artificial fruit flavor? When you have it in like cake or candy or whatever.

[B]

Artificial will probably be cherry.

[A]

Okay, Mine's banana. I like A good banana. But I don't like artificial banana.

[B]

Doesn't think I've ever had artificial banana.

[A]

You have, you have, Michael, you have.

[B]

What would I have had artificial banana in?

[A]

May I remind you of the special weekend we spent in Reno in August of 2018? We went to the convention, the artificial banana convention.

[B]

Okay. All right.

[A]

You took me.

[B]

I was.

[A]

How.

[B]

I was struggling with addiction at that time, so this is why. I may not remember that.

[A]

You just say you don't. Okay. Actually, can I say you weren't struggling. You were like full on in it. You had just. You were doing okay with addiction.

[B]

I was in the throes of addiction.

[A]

Yeah. Yes. Going back to the. So the thing, you know, the dismissive contempt that my generation of comics had for people were like, I'm going to get into stand up and I'm going to get my seven minutes and I'm going to go on the improv and I'm going to kind of affect this character and then I'm going to get famous and I'll go on a sitcom or do whatever that was. I feel the same, same sense from these younger standups who are, you know, I think part of it is just being on the road and the grind of being on the road and paying your dues, quote, unquote. And. And then some of these folks are coming up and they're getting Netflix specials and they're multi, multi, multi millionaires and they're have not, you know, quote unquote, paid their dues, which is relative, you know, And I think that's what's angering a lot of these standups and the, you know, finding that that takes away from their idea of the purity of stand up comedy.

[B]

Yeah, I. But I guess my take on it is. I'd like to think that my take on it is a little bit different in that I understand people have always gotten in through backwards doors and unfairness and nepotism and all those things. And so, like, I get that. I'm literally talking about the actual jokes and the actual comedy.

[A]

Okay, yes, that's a. That's.

[B]

That. That for me is the thing where I like, am trying to figure it out and I'm like, wait, have people become had. This to me, is where, like the human AI of it is the mystery and the X that I've been trying to solve for myself, because it seems like people will be like, gah, gah.

[A]

Gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah, gah.

[B]

Over something that I think, like I'm like, where is the joke? Where is it?

[A]

Michael? I think that's generational. I think every. And that applies to literature and, you know, drama and all kinds of. I think older people have a little bit more difficulty in seeing the thing. Music of, like, you like that? That's garbage. In my day, we listen to this.

[B]

You know, But I think the difference is that it's not like I have, like, highfalutin comedic sensibility or highfalutin musical sensibility. Certainly there's, like. I do have some of those. Well, where is your, like, trash? But even when even the trash sort of becomes not even trashy, like, it's just bland.

[A]

I know, but that's.

[B]

And the blandness is the part where I'm like, wait, isn't it supposed to be, like, hilarious?

[A]

Dude, I'm agreeing with you, but I'm saying that that is something that.

[B]

But you think that's generational.

[A]

I do. I do.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Fair and at work. So where is your level of falutin? If you're not highfalutin, are you when it comes to comedy? Are you midfalutin?

[B]

I take each thing as it comes. Like, it either is funny or it's not.

[A]

To me, your falutinous is all over the place. Yeah.

[B]

Depending on some stuff I think is great, and some of it I think is bad, and some of it I just don't get. And I know that some of it I'm not gonna get because I'm not 27. But I also know that, like, when I was 27, there were older people who I related to. And now I relate neither to the old or to the young. And so part of what I'm even responding to is that one thing that used to be more true, and I say this in music and arts in general, is that there was actual a kind of cross generational. There you could. There were people who had cross generational appeal, or that the idea that you could appeal not just to, like, your demographic seemed to be more of a thing, and that feels to be less the case. Now. That being said, there's a lot of people out there that I don't know. So some of this is just a function of the fact that we have a more individualized, personalized, algorithmized environment. So there's just. There's also gonna be a lot of standups or musicians or artists or whomever who. I don't know who do do what I'm describing same. But it used to be that it was easier to see all of it.

[A]

Well, There was less to see, and.

[B]

There was less to see. In some ways. I personally think it's better, but that is a generational thing.

[A]

I agree. I think it's generational, but I agree with you. I think the younger generation would disagree. I mean, at some point, somebody, I'm sure has said in the last couple years, like, oh, my God, can you imagine if there were only like 500 channels on TV? What. I mean, that would be fucked up, you know? Or can you imagine what. What was. What did people do before TikTok?

[B]

Yeah. And as Joni Mitchell has this lyric in one of her songs that goes to kind of crazy. You get from too much choice. And I, like, resonate with that. It's like too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it makes it hard to even appreciate.

[A]

I've learned that I've watched, you know, with. With raising my daughter like one of the red. You know, one of the things that you. That I've learned I shouldn't do is offer her too many choices. You give her. It's. It's a. Everything goes better for everybody if you go, hey, what do you want? What do you want me to make you for lunch? Do you want tuna fish or do you want the blah, blah? And she'll say something. If I give her five choices. She doesn't want any of them. She wants something else. And what. You know, it's just an easier thing, but I think it's time. Did you just burp?

[B]

I did.

[A]

Should we enhance that in post?

[B]

I don't know what the rules of the road are, but if that works, then you can enhance it.

[A]

Okay, so what I'd like to do is like a really echoey, guttural belch, but then at the very end, just so you don't. You sort of hear it. It's subtle, and you have to go back and rewind it. Rewind it. What? What? How old am I?

[B]

I still have a TV VCR combo at my house. And it works.

[A]

It's just a. Is like a child's voice going, help. If we can put that in there. Okay. I want to introduce you to everybody.

[B]

All right?

[A]

We've been talking here for over. I don't know. Good. Over one minute. We'll probably cut out, like, 10 minutes of it.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I'm here with Michael R. Jackson, and you mentioned nepotism before. He is the adopted son of Michael Jackson, who. And with the R stands for Ricky Ricardo. What?

[B]

Ribi.

[A]

Ribi. And why did he. Why did he give you the R? Because you were just Michael Jackson.

[B]

He wanted me to stay in my place.

[A]

So Ribi was. What is. How.

[B]

He was a humble. He was a humbler.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Ruby will humble you.

[A]

When. When you misbehave. Did he go.

[B]

Ribi? Yes.

[A]

Oh, goodness. So Michael R. Jackson, no relation to the dead one. The dead one. The fiddler and the Diddler. The diddler. The fiddler, Fiddler, Diddler.

[B]

I got so much trouble with the Michael Jackson fans.

[A]

And no. And no relation. Because he adopted you. So you're not elite. You're not. Like, there's no blood line. He just.

[B]

Allegedly.

[A]

Allegedly. Oh, interesting. Now it's getting juicy. But you did see his penis.

[B]

I mean, who hasn't?

[A]

Who hasn't?

[B]

You even have to ask?

[A]

I didn't know you or your work until my wife, Amber Tamblyn, who. We're gonna. We gotta get back on the show because. Yeah, we'll figure that out. I'm like, I have. She's introduced me to so much theater and. And musical theater and productions that I would not have availed myself of 90% of them. I wouldn't have, you know, gone to or. Or I wouldn't have even been in that orbit. But she's. She is. And she's turned me on a bunch of stuff. And then in particular. And she has. She nails it pretty much nine out of ten times. And. And she told me about this show. It wasn't on Broadway yet. The show. The show. This is a tongue twister. The show she had seen. Yes. Called A Strange Loop. And the whole thing was presented with that, like. No. Okay, now just listen to me, listen to me, because it's going to sound like something you're not going to like, but you're going to love this. It's. Trust me on this. I'm going to describe it. You're going to go, what the fuck? And trust me, it's amazing. And. And I. And she described it and I was like, I'm not sure. And she's just go. And I went. And it. I'd say one of the top five shows I've ever seen anywhere. It was just stunning. And I couldn't shut up about it to my friends trying to get everybody to. To go see it called the Strange Loop. And you won the Pulitzer and the Tony and Cleo.

[B]

I'm not sure about that one.

[A]

Okay. And what about trying to think People's Choice.

[B]

People's Choice, Family for best scene stealer. Still pauper digestion.

[A]

And you also, that year or the musical, won the National League's Rookie of The year in baseball, mlb, like, that's how good it was.

[B]

We were in a league of our own, you could say.

[A]

I wouldn't say that. That's kind of. That's a bad thing.

[B]

I said. You could say it.

[A]

I could say it. I mean, sure, I have the capabilities of saying it.

[B]

Yeah, you did say it. So therefore it's true.

[A]

Fine.

[B]

You see how that works with new.

[A]

McValue at McDonald's, you get more than you expect. So after a long day, buy a double cheeseburger and add a McChicken for a dollar.

[B]

Because saving with deals is always on the menu.

[A]

With new MCvalue, prices and participation may vary value for item of equal or lesser value. I loved was such an amazing show and. And just like a very brief summation and tell me if this is, you know, this doesn't touch upon.

[B]

I'd just like to hear how other people describe it.

[A]

Well, I'm going to describe it almost in like a logline technical way, you know, without any of the cool shit about it. So it's a musical about a early 20s gay, black, gay usher at the Lion King, who is writing a musical about a black gay usher at the Lion King. And the musical. He. He. So you see this, you see his life and it's already too long, this explanation. And then. But all. There's the supporting cast play like various people in his family. Like there's multiple people play his dad. And it's really poignant and really fucking funny. And. And it's also trippy. And. And the supporting cast was so fucking good too. Holy shit. They were amazing. I mean, I just. It was so cool. And. And I know that really doesn't give you a even halfway complete idea, but it was a. It was a super cool musical. And I'm not a musical guy either. And then, you know, Amber would put on the soundtrack when we'd go upstate and you know, there were songs that we really gravitated toward. The song that is.

[B]

You loved In With Daddy. Like that was your favorite song. You played it every time. In With Daddy?

[A]

No, my favorite song was the Happy birthday message.

[B]

Oh, the mom periodic.

[A]

The mom leaves on the phone and it's just a message. She's leaving a message. It becomes a song. It's about Happy Birthday and she loves her son. But then it gets all Christiany and it's really funny and can I tell you the funniest thing to me, which is not the funniest haha moment at all, but the thing that made me go, oh, man, this guy's got an ear. This is perfect. I don't know if I told you this.

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

It's one of the characters. He goes home and the family's there. And one of the characters is talking about another character's house in Atlanta and refers to it as a chateau, which I grew up in Atlanta, had a lot of black friends. That is the most, like, middle class, black Atlanta word for a house. That they would call it a chateau was like, oh, nailed it.

[B]

So I wish I could take full credit for that. That is literally a specific reference to the Real Housewives of Atlanta.

[A]

Ah, is it?

[B]

Because there's a character, a woman who used to be on there named Sheree Whitfield. And it was this whole storyline where she was building a house that she called Chateau.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

Chateau. The Chateau Ray. And it always was the most absurd and, yes, the most black middle class thing of all time.

[A]

And Atlanta, specifically.

[B]

Specifically Atlanta. And so I had to, like. Cause the show has a lot of references in it. And there were certain things as I was writing over the years that, like, just became important. Like pop cultural markers, but also, like, character y kind of things.

[A]

Well, there's a ton of that in there. I mean, and it just all, like, I'd never heard that before. I was like, man, you nailed it. To this guy in, you know, row four, you know, seat 112. I was like, oh, that is the absolute perfect, perfect thing for that character to say.

[B]

I'm a cultural custodian.

[A]

Well, I appreciate it. Thanks for cleaning up. Yeah, we had a spill in aisle four.

[B]

I'm right there.

[A]

And unfortunately, and I wouldn't even say surprisingly, I'll say, shockingly, it closed, like, shortly after all these accolades. And it couldn't have been that expensive a production amount.

[B]

Well, I mean, it didn't have, like.

[A]

Aladdin shit in it.

[B]

Yeah, it was a longer run than most, but, like, by Broadway standards, it was definitely a short run. We ran for, like, nine months.

[A]

Oh, that's. But I mean, that is a long run. But it's. It was.

[B]

So we don't recoup our investment. But, like. But it was.

[A]

But even after Pulitzers and Pulitzers. But that's sort of like Tony's and.

[B]

But I think that the. Those. The times are changing. Like, those things don't mean as much as they used to, especially to the box office.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's just a different era. Those sort of things, like a Tony win all used to, like, you could, like. And it could give you like a lot more. A longer run. It just doesn't mean as much. Just like the critics don't mean as much.

[A]

Right. Well, that's a good thing.

[B]

Which is good. But it's also hard because you also use that to advertise it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But then it's just. It's.

[A]

But now you can.

[B]

It's more word of mouth than anything.

[A]

The review for. And I haven't seen it, so I'm not passing any judgment on it, but the. The current. One of the current hot shows, Operation Mincemeat, came over from England. There's on the poster on the subway. I, you know, it's there on the C train. I saw it this morning. The. The of the reviews. The first review above it is. And I'm paraphrasing this, but it's New York Times and it says the reviews have been extraordinary. So not even. They're not even giving you a. They're just saying it's been well reviewed.

[B]

It's not even like the old days. I used to usher the Lion King and they used to have this famous. They used to have this famous quote I think it was from. It might have been Newsday or something like that. It said it's like being in a dream. Awake was like big one of their big pull quotes and people used to like make fun of it. But I heard the marketing people got mad because they're like. That really helped sell them tickets. It's like being in a dream.

[A]

How the fuck did they know?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I don't believe any of that marketing shit.

[B]

Metrics. I don't know.

[A]

It's. I find it fascinating and I'm being facetious that people can have. Hold so much power over a. A project from its inception to being completely finished who are in the marketing department. Like the marketing department has. And I learned this the hard way with the Run Ronnie Run. The marketing department has all the power and they will take credit for the things that are successful that may not have a thing to do with marketing. And they won't acknowledge their role in shitty marketing or meaningless marketing that had nothing to do with a success or a failure.

[B]

Oh, I also just remembered another one. I think this was Mamma Mia. I think it was Mamma Mia. You already know you're gonna like it. That was like one of the reviews sent. And I just always think that was hilarious.

[A]

There's a very smart cynicism, kind of manipulative. That's like one of those like Darren Brown mind trick things.

[B]

Think and Grow red.

[A]

Oh, I guess I'll get. I wasn't gonna see it, but I know I'm gonna like it already.

[B]

But my favorite marketing is there was this musical, I think it was in the 90s, maybe, maybe the 80s, called Grand Hotel. And it was this commercial you can watch on YouTube. And there's this woman who's like, I loved it. The music, the dancing, it was fabulous. And then. And then later on, they cut her. She goes, I'm gonna see it again two more times. If my husband works in the area, it's the greatest commercial ever. And like, I hope he left that in. Yes. But, like, I think that that commercial, when it was on tv, like in that era, people, like, got very excited because they did this. It was like that man on the street, like lots of.

[A]

Yeah, oh, I know exactly what we were talking about. So they play in the. The hotel.

[B]

My husband works in the area, and it's so good. And it made people excited to go see G.R. town. I think they wanted Tony or some.

[A]

Tony for best commercial.

[B]

For best commercial. They want a Cleo Award there.

[A]

There you go. There was a. There was a. In Vegas. I'm going way back to 90s. There was a. One of those in room. You know, it's just on a loop. And there was a guy. Whatever the show was. I don't know, it was like, you know, who were the. The gay lion tamer guys? The two. The two.

[B]

Siegfried and Roy.

[A]

Siegfried and Roy. They were gay, rumor has it. And it was one of those big spectacular things. So you get like, you know, the camera's placed like way the fuck in the back, and you seen kind of a flash plot, flash pot or whatever, some things. And then there's a. Cuts to a guy. They're coming out in the lobby, the guy. And he's. For those of you listening, not watching, he squeezes his eyes. He's being. He's, you know, describing the show. He goes, it was phasmatastical. He made up a word. And he was so moved by the lion moving. The. When it went like it was in a box and then it was. Wasn't in a box. And then it was like, it was fast metazical or whatever.

[B]

And that. There was a commercial, I think it was for the Lion King, where they had a bunch of the people speaking. And this guy goes, and I bought the mug.

[A]

Yeah, you were waiting for that. You're watching the whole time going, yeah, but did he get the mug? All right, you know, cut. Don't bury the lead My friend. Ah, he did, he did buy the mug. What was the mug for?

[B]

I think it said, like, Lion King. It might have been Aladdin. It was like one of those shows, like. And I bought the mug, like, was part of the Cut to the Sky. It was just so funny. I used to love those commercials.

[A]

Oh, I, I, I still do. Those are great. And so they used to play in little monitors outside of the.

[B]

Or like this in the cab. When you get in the cab. And the Sandy Kenyon here.

[A]

Oh, man, not, Was it not Sandy Kenyon or who's the guy who, he might still be around. When you get in the, the taxis in New York, they'll, you know, they immediately start, start. This little monitor will play commercials and stuff after, like the please buckle up thing. And you can, you can mute it. You can turn it off. And I urge everybody who's going to be visiting the New York City area, if you get in a cab, turn that thing off. It'll be super annoying if you don't. You're, and you can feel free to turn it off or mute it. But there's a guy, it's not, I don't think it's Sandy Kenyon. It's, he does the, you know, review, the movie review. He's got, he's got kind of like a oval shaped head. I'm gonna guess he's around 50, kind of. Maybe it is Sandy Kenyon, but it's, I feel like I know that name from something else. But he's a guy, he just does the review. He doesn't, I don't think he does it for like, Channel 5.

[B]

Like New York One.

[A]

Yeah, he doesn't do it for New York One. I don't think it's just like the, and he goes, I don't know. But he, he will tell you whether to see the movie or not. Whether, whether you liked it or not. And regardless of whatever movie it is, regardless. So it could be, you know, big. And they're mostly like the big tentpole things. My recommendation. See it.

[B]

Oh, I know who you're talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's got the beard, the, like the goatee.

[A]

And he does this with his finger.

[B]

Oh, gosh, I can see his face. I know who you're talking about. And I can't name his name because.

[A]

Of the nature of whatever they're doing. Howard Something. Yeah, it could be Howard. Yeah. My recommendation.

[B]

No. Gene Shallot.

[A]

No, no, no, Gene.

[B]

I know. God, I can't think of his name.

[A]

Okay. He always gives it a positive review. There's no, there's no reason. It's just bought and paid for. Not necessary. People are gonna go see fucking Deadpool and Wolverine anyway. Whether the guy, the stranger in the back of the cab goes, my recommendation. See it.

[B]

Minecraft.

[A]

Yeah. See this movie. What an exciting. You know, there's no real thing. Can you imagine if that was your job? It's got thrills and other things that end in ills. I would, I don't know what I would do if that was what I found myself in life as the guy who likes every movie. I don't know what he's paid, what kind of swag he gets.

[B]

I mean, maybe that's like. You know how they say ignorance is bliss. Maybe like Joy is liking every movie.

[A]

I don't think he truly. You, you're looking at this in another way. You're looking at it as if he really does love every fucking movie he sees.

[B]

I mean, I think perception is reality.

[A]

I like that idea, Michael. Cause I saw I was being more cynical and thinking, well, I'm also, I'm.

[B]

Actually being like really cynical. Meaning, like if ignorance is bliss, then Joy is liking every movie. Like if you just like every movie uncritically with no thought, maybe that's like the, the, the most joyful you can be. So like in a kind of zombie they live. I'm wearing a T shirt says they live based on their john color. I'm a nerd in that regard. I'm definitely a horror nerd in that. In that regard. But like it's kind of zombie pod people way. You love everything, right?

[A]

So it's not unlike when you see a clearly mentally ill person and they're cackling, laughing, and you're like, I mean, they're laughing. I'm not laughing. I'm kind of bummed out right now just thinking about all this crazy shit. Should I change places and become mentally ill even though I smell like piss? They are laughing and they're happy.

[B]

Yes. Although the funny thing, I always want to write either a song or write a joke into something. Thing about crazy people always know when to get off the train. They could be like literally like in a full blown moment, but it's like 125th Street. Oh, there's my stop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they get off every time.

[A]

So there's some positives. Yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying. There used to be a guy, I lived in Dumbo for a couple years and there was a guy who would be on the corner of like front and whatever it was Washington or something. And. And he would ask for money and had a cane and, you know, not like, not aggressive at all. And just like, you know, hey, brother, what's up? You know, I see him and sometimes I give him money some. Most times not, but. And then one day, like seven, eight months into this whole thing, I just assumed he lived in the area. I see him getting off of the C train at High street and holding his cane and just walking down. It was like, oh, this is your job.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

I used to notice that I don't see as much of that anymore. That in the early days of my living in New York, I used to.

[A]

See that he's coming, he's bringing his cane.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's a downhill walk from the, From High street down to. To Dumbo, from, From Brooklyn Heights. And he. And he would, you know, walk and have his cane get off the subway, come down.

[B]

If you wanna get ahead.

[A]

That's. Yeah, I was like, oh, I see. I see now. I didn't realize you were clocking in for this. And then George Jetson. I don't get it.

[B]

Never mind.

[A]

Because he'd clock in.

[B]

Yes. Jane. His wife. Yeah.

[A]

No, I'm his son, Elroy.

[B]

His son Elroy. Daughter. Cutie.

[A]

God, you're such a nerd.

[B]

I am in a good nerd for something.

[A]

I. I would. I would honestly, I would guess that 50%, if not more of the people, the guests on this podcast are nerds.

[B]

All right.

[A]

In a good way. I'm a nerd.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I. I wear it with pride. Off my they Live T shirt.

[A]

Yeah. What. What are you working on now?

[B]

I am sort of, after three, like many years of like, back to back shows, I'm sort of like back in my little laboratory. I don't have anything immediately coming up, except I have an opera that I wrote the libretto to that'll be in Philadelphia next year.

[A]

Holy shit.

[B]

At Opera Philadelphia called Complications in Sioux. I'm working with Justin.

[A]

Is it Complications in I N Sue S U E. Like the lady's name.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Is it really? Oh, shit. I'm good with the puns.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I'm good with the Broadway puns.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But that'll be in Philadelphia next year. So that's sort of the only thing that's.

[A]

Wait, Michael, is that for real? Is it Complications ensue. Oh, the puns.

[B]

Yes, yes, yes, yes. So working on that with a bunch of different. It's a piece that has a bunch of composers. It's not just one Composer, not just doing the libretto. And other than that, I'm just like. I have some old commissions I'm working on, so I'm kind of just like, in the trenches.

[A]

When. When a Strange loop, like, took off, did you find. Did you almost, like, in a. In the perception. The outsider's perception way, did you kind of overnight, like, have all this work that was. Were you approached for all this stuff?

[B]

It was kind of. The process was interesting because I sort of truly came out of nowhere, professionally speaking, with that piece. And so the word sort of got out, and then people started to come and, like, people flying from LA or whatever. And then, like, shortly after that, suddenly I started doing these general meetings. And then that sort of has continued to this day. And then, like, there have been lots of, like, the tricky thing is, like, there's been lots of people who come to me for things, but the problem is they see a syringe loop. They love a strange loop. But then I. But then it's like, okay, well, now here in Hollywood, do this other thing.

[A]

Yeah, well.

[B]

And you. And so then that's her. And then it's like, oh, he's that black guy who wrote that thing. Wait. We have this great thing about, like, World War II black buyer pilots.

[A]

Who.

[B]

Can you do that? And I'm like, have you met me?

[A]

I love that. Is that a real thing?

[B]

Yes, 100%. And there's other cool things.

[A]

We have a thing about World War II pilots, but the thing is, they're black. You can write that.

[B]

Yeah. And, like, you know, and I've taken quite a lot of those kinds of meanings where it's like, where's our Black Lotus?

[A]

Yeah. You know, And I'm like, of course.

[B]

Okay. And then the big thing I got of it was that I wrote on Boots Riley's show, I'm a Virgo. That was on Amazon.

[A]

But, like, I know Boots from way back.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. Cause he had come and seen a strange loop when it was off Broadway.

[A]

Yeah. And just to let people know the. The history. The gestation of a strange loop took was like a decade, right? Yeah.

[B]

It was longer than that. So I started working on a monologue called why I Can't Get Work right after I graduated from college. And that became the seed of the piece. And then I started writing music when I went to grad school. And so from then 2003 to Strange Loop was 2019. So 16 years to Off Broadway, and then 18 years to Broadway.

[A]

I mean, that is dedication. That.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, a lot of people don't have.

[B]

Yeah. And it's something I say, you know, whenever I talk to students, like art students or whatever, writing students, as I'm like, it wasn't consistently, like, I worked on other things during that time, but, like, I just, for whatever reason, just decided to stay working on that piece. Like, there was something about it and that I wanted to keep working on. And it was also because I was ushering on Broadway and seeing what was there, and I was like, oh, I don't do that at all. So I might as well just do what I want to do and maybe, maybe I could get a nice off Broadway production somewhere. So then when I got that, that for me was what I thought was the ceiling. And it wasn't until it got such a positive response that my producer approached me about seeing if he wanted to try for Broadway, and I decided to sort of try to be more ambitious.

[A]

Have you seen its influence anywhere on any shows?

[B]

Oh, yes. I mean, I won't say that its influence is on any shows that I've seen, but there's certainly lots of young writers who I hear their log lines for their musicals that all are these, like, meta musical, like, so many things. And like, and it's funny. I actually talked to Lin Manuel about this as he said he experienced a similar thing with, like, Hamilton where. And listen, I don't have Hamilton clout or money or anything, but like, he.

[A]

None of us do.

[B]

None of us do. But he. But he was like, oh, yeah, like, he could see all these people trying to do these, like, historical revisionist things after that show. Like, more like it was a real uptick. So. But I don't see. I don't personally see the influence anywhere, like, on Broadway or anything like that.

[A]

Right. No, you probably will at some point. It's bound.

[B]

Well, then I'll call my lawyer right after that.

[A]

What's the last or not the last. But what. What shows have you seen that really impressed you that you loved oh Mary.

[B]

Oh Mary, oh Mary, oh Mary, number one.

[A]

Loved it.

[B]

I've seen it six, seven times, Bob. Like, like, it is my favorite thing. Cole is my favorite thing. Yeah, I whole cast. Bianca Lee, James Scully, Conrad, Rickamura, like, all of them. Like, I. I love it so much. It's like one of, like, it's it that to me, oh Mary does is like the thing that blends the old and the new with me and that. And so that's where I'm like, when I'm trying to figure out this comedy thing. I'm like that. That does it. It's like. It's not. It's like, quote unquote stupid. But it's not stupid stupid. It's like, yeah, no, I'm smart stupid, but, like, actually kind of sophisticated. And then you add the performances and the sensibility, and it's just the greatest thing ever.

[A]

Yeah. Bob Bodenkirk and his wife Naomi, who are not theater folks at all, really were like, you have to go see this. It's amazing. It's great. They had seen it, so they took Amber and I, and they were seeing it for their second or third time, and. And it's. Yeah, it's. It's so impressive. But what one of the things I liked about it is, it is taking the piss out of camp. And I do not like camp. I don't like that stuff. It's. It takes a piss out of camp while also being camp.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In a really smart, cool, and not in a meta way, really, but because.

[B]

The character is fully observing that character's.

[A]

It's so funny. And also probably the most laughs per capita at a show, at a theatrical show, than I've ever had.

[B]

Matt likes ice cream on her pussy.

[A]

Yeah. I really, really enjoy it.

[B]

Every time I've seen it, I laugh in all the same places and more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I just am such a huge admirer of it. It's like, it's the kind of thing I would love there to be a tradition of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I told Cole, I was like, I want a 22 season, 22 episode order of it right now. Like, I want to see Mary Todd Lincoln in, like, different situations, crazy ideas across time. Like, I want to see Mary Todd Lincoln in World War II. I want to see Mary Todd Lincoln in Vietnam. I want to see Mary Todd Lincoln, you know, in space, like on Star Trek.

[A]

Yeah. But you also need the character and the grounded character of Abraham Lincoln to make.

[B]

He should also be there with her. Like, they all should just go from era to era as themselves.

[A]

I don't know about that, but, yeah, I really. It's pretty great.

[B]

So that's, like, my favorite thing. I also really liked maybe happy ending. I heard good things about it. It's a really beautiful show about the robots.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What else, what else, what else, what else?

[A]

I mean, those are a lot of things.

[B]

I mean, those are two big ones for me.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, Mary, I'm with you. That was. And I'm so psyched it got to.

[B]

Move to Broadway and purpose. My friend Brandon Jacobs Jenkins, his play.

[A]

Is, like, just Won the Pulitzer.

[B]

Just won the Pulitzer yesterday. Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Very proud of him.

[A]

Yeah. All right, well, I'll check that out. I know Brendan again through. Well, I know everybody in this world through Amber, my wife, who's on the board of the soho rep. And I have a T shirt that says board B O R E D of the soho rep. Love it.

[B]

Love it. And Amber, I knew because I watched her as a child on General Hospital.

[A]

You were both children?

[B]

Yeah, I think I'm a slightly older child than her, I think, but she was a child on hospital and I watched it every day.

[A]

The. Like, I have people, I have fans that kind of run a gamut of types, but I've never seen the amount of people that you would never guess or like, oh, I used to watch. Watch you on General Hospital. And I know a guy, a friend of ours, who spent time in prison for some bad things. And he's like, oh, man. When he met Amber and when I was first starting to go out with her, he. He was like. He had just gotten out of prison and he was like, oh, my God, you're Emily Quartermate. And so this guy was a General Hospital fan. And that was a surprise.

[B]

Yeah. So when I was in college, I interned at All My Children. And I used to. Before they told me I wasn't supposed to do this, I would read the fan mail and like so many of.

[A]

Wait, you mean open up?

[B]

I would open the fan letters because I thought, for some reason I thought I was supposed to do that and then distribute it to the actors in their mailboxes.

[A]

What made you.

[B]

What made you think that I was an idiot and they weren't monitoring me very closely, so it was their bad.

[A]

And I'm sorry. I'm sorry. This sounds like you just breaking the law.

[B]

I was creating other people's mail of.

[A]

Flimsy justification of like, I didn't know I wasn't supposed to not do it.

[B]

I was a 20 year old felon. Whatever. Anyway. But a lot of the mail would come from prisons.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there would be people being like, dear Erica, or like, you know, whatever, like. Or this storyline meant a lot to me or whatever. Or a lot of the fandom will be like, I hate Erica's hair. Erica's hair is ruining the show. If you don't change it, I'm never gonna watch All My Children ever again.

[A]

So these prisoners eventually got released and got access to the Internet.

[B]

Well, no, these were like handwritten letters.

[A]

I know. What I'm saying is that's the same.

[B]

Oh, Got it, got it, got it, got it.

[A]

It wasn't that. It wasn't that funny or that clear. I apologize. I'll rework it. We'll fix it up in post.

[B]

You should work on it on the road.

[A]

I will. Yeah, that'd be great. I'll just, in the middle of the set go. Hey, guys, if you give me five.

[B]

Minutes, I'm going to Catch a Rising Star and then I'll be back.

[A]

Yes. Then what I'll do is I'll create.

[B]

Just to hear her opinion.

[A]

I'll create a tiny Catch a Rising Star set and I'll walk over into it and I'll ask six people from the audience to come up and be that audience and I'll work on the.

[B]

Bit and then you'll talk to Mitzi. Mitzi. Did I murder? Did I murder?

[A]

You know, I never passed. I didn't pass at the Improv in New York. I did not pass at the Comedy Store in la. I never passed. I never passed.

[B]

So you came up the hard way.

[A]

I. Well, I didn't come up through the Comedy Store or the improv in New York.

[B]

You're like Neeli o' Hara. You couldn't rely. Never mind. That's a very niche reference. I'm gonna leave it alone.

[A]

Can you just give me a hint?

[B]

Valley of the Dolls.

[A]

That is niche.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. I think my father in law was in Valley. Oh, no. Peyton Place. Am I. Those two things aren't.

[B]

Yes. Which I've never seen Peyton play, so I'd always wanted to see it.

[A]

Yeah, My. My father in law, I think he got nominated for. Or maybe even one for that.

[B]

I thought it was for west side Story.

[A]

No, no. Okay. He. I don't think he. He might have been nominated, but he won a Golden Globe, I think, for Peyton Place.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Isn't that like soap opera?

[B]

Ish. Yeah, it is. It is.

[A]

So of all the things he did. So who knows where that. Because I. I haven't seen it. But I mean, he did some great stuff. So it's probably one of those things where you're like, this is what you're gonna give. This is what I'm getting it for.

[B]

Listen, some of the people who came through those shows, like, did some crazy performances on them, like, I will, hands down, look up Judith Light on one. Light to live in 1979. That bitch like eight nut up.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, I'm, you know, I'm not denigrating soap operas. I mean, they're. It's, you know, silly. You know, it's like, if you. To me, it's like the difference between, like a glass of fresh milk, you know, not fresh from the cow, but like a really good quality dairy from a dairy. And then getting. Then going to key foods and getting like the semi skimmed 1% milk from Cremo Land and then adding water to it with a. And then maybe a. Just one leaf.

[B]

I have a philosophical difference with you on this, but I understand what you're saying.

[A]

Yeah, I don't. Were you. Were you. You must have been of the era then that knew of. What was the. Oh, what was it? We used to watch it. God, it was a real soap opera. That kind of was so absurd. God, when I say what. Say it again.

[B]

Passions.

[A]

Passions.

[B]

Yeah. So I hated Passions. Because we loved it, right?

[A]

The doll comes to life.

[B]

Yeah. So Timmy. Timmy who? He died. He died in, like, year 2000.

[A]

The actor or the doll? What about the doll? Is the doll still alive?

[B]

The doll lives inside our hearts or it lives in your heart, not in mine? I hated Passions because Passions replaced Another world, which was my show, and I loved another world.

[A]

All right, so you were blinded by anger and you weren't able to see the beauty of that.

[B]

But also in terms of being like the crazy soap opera that was Days of Our Lives for me, digitalized. Marlena was literally possessed by the devil.

[A]

I don't know any of this shit.

[B]

Marlena was possessed by the devil. Vivian buried Carly alive with a speaker in her casket so she could talk to her and torture her from above ground. Like, aliens came down. Like so many crazy things happened on Days of Our Lives. That for me, Passions, that sounds like.

[A]

A typical day in our life.

[B]

But, like, as compared to Passions, I was just like, fuck off. Like, you killed Rachel, Corey and all my people.

[A]

All my people.

[B]

You killed all my friends. All my fucking friends. All my friends. Murdered all my friends on another world to pave way for the fucking doll. Like, I was pissed and I saw. I never watched it.

[A]

It was so good. It was so bad. I mean, it was heckaba. Ugh.

[B]

Tabitha.

[A]

It was so bad. It was good. It was terrible.

[B]

I already had that. I already had that with Days of Our Lives.

[A]

I understand now that you're telling me about it with, like, somebody being buried.

[B]

Alive was because Knight had a clone. Reva died and Josh was so upset that he went to a scientists to clone his dead wife named Dolly.

[A]

Her name was Dolly.

[B]

And then she lived in the house. And then Reva came back because the fans hated the clone. They had the clone age rapidly and Die.

[A]

That's how the scientist who has the ability to clone a human being is down the street. Correct. In the what? Cul de sac or wherever they. Where is this? What?

[B]

Springfield?

[A]

No, but what's the name of the guiding Light? Guiding light. There's a guiding light above us. And it shines around your head. There's a guiding light below us. If you see it then you're dead. You're dead. You're dead. Believe me when I tell you, you're dead. That's the guiding lights.

[B]

So that was the theme song?

[A]

Well, that's. I submitted that and they said, no, thank you. But.

[B]

But they did release the disco remix.

[A]

Yes, they. It was the B side to a fifth of Beethoven. Michael. What? Your theater guy, what do you think of this lighting that they've chosen? Used to be purple and then they switched it up to orange.

[B]

I like it. It's a little David Lynchian for me. Which is not a bad thing.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Do you want to see the purple?

[B]

Sure.

[A]

Nicole, Give me one second. And these were orders from la. Okay, Switch the goddamn planner color. Here we go. And it was here. Toss it. Yeah. Which purple, the top or the bottom? I think the darkest one. Darkest one. Where's the thing? It's Nicole. What's going on? The. It's the button, isn't. It's not Nicole. What? Seriously, it's not. Where do. What? I mean, I've literally put it. Well, you might have to angle it. Oh, I'm holding it the wrong way. Okay.

[B]

Oh, that's. Wait, people don't like that.

[A]

I have no problem with it.

[B]

I think that that's really remarkable.

[A]

Yeah. You know who has. You know what? Marketing and analytics, they say purple is out. They said we can't promote this show. Yep. That's what they said.

[B]

This is always what I'm coming up against. This like homophobia that is just follows me around and into the analytics.

[A]

Yeah. Analytics.

[B]

Homophobic analytics.

[A]

Now it's Nicole.

[B]

You need to keep that. That's so good.

[A]

All right, you hear that, Nicole? For me, tell them.

[B]

Tell. Tell LA to fuck off.

[A]

Tell LA to fuck off. Tony Award winning, Pulitzer Prize winning, prize winning, Michael R. Jackson Grammy Award losing, Grammy Award losing. I'm a Grammy. I'm a two time Grammy Award loser.

[B]

I lost the Grammy Award to Stephen Sondheim.

[A]

Well, if you're gonna lose a Grammy.

[B]

And I lost the Olivier Award to Frank Lesser.

[A]

So you got. You were nominated for an Olivier. That's great. Yeah, that's awesome.

[B]

It was very nice. Very. Got to go to Prince to Royal album.

[A]

Did it play in the West End? Oh, no shit, yeah. Oh, right on.

[B]

That was a short run as well, but, I mean, it was always gonna be a limited run there. But, yeah, it was really nice. We had a great production there at the Barbican.

[A]

Was it the same cast? Any. The same film?

[B]

It was all Brits, except for. We brought over our Usher understudy. Did Usher. So it was like one American and all these Brits, and they were great. And last week I went and saw the Canadian premiere of the Strange Loop.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Which was wild. Like, those Canadians, like, let their hair down.

[A]

In what way?

[B]

They just. I think it's because. Because they're not American. I think they're not afraid to just be stereotypes, quote, unquote, stereotypical in some of the parts. Like, they just go for the. They go for the broad comedy of it, which actually energizes it.

[A]

They're not like. I don't know about that.

[B]

I can show you recordings, like, they were so good.

[A]

Well, I loved what I saw.

[B]

No, no, I'm not saying it was better. I'm just saying that it was.

[A]

It was gayer.

[B]

It was unhinged in, like, a really great way. It sounds like in the parts where it needed to be unhinged.

[A]

Well, I like the hinged part. It sounds like you're saying it was gayer.

[B]

It was not gayer, but it was.

[A]

Like, you're saying, broader. And they. The stereotypes.

[B]

Yes, there were some. So, for example, there was a scene, a family scene, where the family. It's like Usher's sort of Tyler Perry style family scene.

[A]

I fucking love that.

[B]

Where they're just screaming each other.

[A]

That was my. That's where the Chateau line is in.

[B]

No, that's in writing the gospel play. That's when he's, like, imitating.

[A]

Oh, yes, you're right.

[B]

And so there's a scene when they're.

[A]

Coming in, there's a scene after that.

[B]

Where they're all yelling at each other about, like, who said that? And blah, blah, blah. But the Canadians, like, that scene could. It would be very easy for, like, a lot of black actors to feel like, oh, these stereotypes. Oh, but they don't know any better. So they just sort of did it full out. And it made that scene be so funny. Like, it was so funny.

[A]

I'm sure it was. I mean, the writing is funny, so.

[B]

Yeah, but what I mean is that, like, I was worried when we went to London, for example, that because it had such an American sensibility, to it that they wouldn't get it. And so they would be more withdrawn or something.

[A]

You mean the actors.

[B]

Yes, but it was actually the opposite because they. They didn't have any sense that they needed to, like, moderate any of the language. They just sort of leaned into it even more, which I think was helpful because the audience in general, there is a different. Like, they have a different mindset about what was happening. And so it was. My point is that it just really.

[A]

Their brains have been warped by, you know, free health care.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Yeah. And so they see everything through the prism of.

[B]

And lack of fluoride.

[A]

And lack of fluoride. Well, that's well on the way out here. Yeah.

[B]

But, yeah, it was. Anyway, my point is that it was like. It was great. It was like, super. I didn't know what it would be like, and it was super great.

[A]

Cool. Well, that must have been also a nice little treat. A feather in your cup.

[B]

Yeah. And I took my mom and dad with me.

[A]

Nobody puts feathers in a cup. One of my feather in your hat. Feathering your feather. I don't know where that came from. Well, it's Britain. They might put. Who knows with those people? They're crazy. Yeah. That must have been nice.

[B]

Yeah, it was cool. It was cool. It was cool.

[A]

Anything else about anything doesn't have to be about.

[B]

I feel. I feel like this is always the part where someone's like, well, you know, with everything going on, But I don't. I don't really have anything to say about that.

[A]

But. Do you. That's not what I meant. Is there anything you'd like to. I don't know when this will come out, but anything you'd like to plug or mention or. You've already repped. Oh, Mary. And what is it?

[B]

Happy, maybe Having purpose.

[A]

A purpose? Yeah.

[B]

I don't think so. I talked about complications and. So.

[A]

Can we see you at Mary's crisis anytime soon?

[B]

No, I've never been.

[A]

Really?

[B]

I'd literally never been. In all these years. I'd never been to Maurice Crisis ever.

[A]

Oh, my God. John Roberts took me there and I.

[B]

Was like, actually a Supreme Court justice.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Wow. That I would pay to see.

[A]

Yeah. Shock. Lindsey Graham was there. Oh, gosh. Yeah. Mike Pence was there. It was. It was very special. No, John. Do you know John Roberts?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

He. He. The most. The thing most people know him from is the voice of Linda Belcher and Bob Spergers. He's a comic actor. He's done some great stuff. And awesome guy. But I went subsequently. Oh. To let everybody know. So Marie's Crisis is a small piano bar in the Village. Gay bar, but, you know, straight friendly gay bar, but mostly piano bar where people will sing musical theater songs mostly. And the dynamic at play there is fucking fascinating to watch people angling to be the person who sings because the guy sits there and he plays on the piano very big.

[B]

Yeah, I think I know somebody who plays there regularly, like, is like a regular.

[A]

But you have to watch the dynamic. So. So, and. And it's like kind of a circular, you know, not everybody's participating. Let's say, you know, half. Half of the room, whatever. And again, small. It's tiny. And the guy will start playing whatever. To dream the impossible dream. Right. And so you have a bunch of people who start, you know, to drink. And then eventually somebody. I don't know how it works. I don't. The dynamic is fascinating to watch. I don't know what the interpersonal friendships or. Or, you know, how these people know each other, but eventually someone takes the lead and then people kind of die down and they let that person sing. And I haven't. There's no. Like, there's nothing I could see that was obvious like a gesture or anything or stepping into something.

[B]

But it's kind of like when. Like a cock fight. What is the name of that thing that comes up on chickens when they're like feeling threatened?

[A]

Oh, a cockscomb, I guess. I don't know.

[B]

Whatever. It's like the chicken. The head chicken. I'm gonna sing the Impossible Dream.

[A]

It is like that. But you know, they have to share it. There's. It's not like the. The rooster is always the rooster. Like, so it was just fucking fascinating to watch because there's no. No words are spoken. I can't. I couldn't discern any kind of subtle. Like it's my time and you didn't like move to the center. It's just somebody would. And then they would do this and then the other people would die down.

[B]

And you know, the closest I've come to that is I used. There's this game bar on the Upper east side called Townhouse. And there used to be a penis there who died during COVID But he was like the most incredible.

[A]

I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

[B]

There was a pianist who died during.

[A]

COVID A 12 inch pianist.

[B]

A 12 inch pianist who died during COVID And he. And you could go off and sing like show tune things. Yeah, I never. And I would sometimes when I would go to townhouse. I would do that. And I always did the same thing. Bill from Showbelt.

[A]

And you didn't do your own thing?

[B]

No.

[A]

You didn't, like, sneak it in like, and try to see if anybody recognized me? Like, hey, you're what?

[B]

But you know, that's not the move. Not the move to the townhouse. And I don't know what it's like now or who the new 12 inch pianist is, but like, I'm more of a karaoke guy. Like, I prefer, like, I'm not. I love musical theater, but I'm not dying to go somewhere and sing musical theater. I want to go to karaoke and sing Celebrity Skin by Home. That's like my. That and Stay by Lisa Loeb. Those are my two go tos.

[A]

Stay.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

Boy, those are two very different songs.

[B]

They are. But you, you know, you start strong and you finish.

[A]

You say, only hear what I want to. That's all I know.

[B]

I don't listen hard. I don't pay attention to the distance that you've been running to anyone, anywhere. I don't understand if you really can only hear a negative. No, no.

[A]

Oh, hang on. Ethan Hawke is here.

[B]

Yes. Oh my gosh, that'll be so funny.

[A]

Did you see, did you ever watch Reservations, Reservation Dogs?

[B]

I've never seen it.

[A]

Great. And I, I don't. I'm. I mean, great, like absolute.

[B]

And that's Tarantino. No, no, no, that's Reservoir Dogs.

[A]

Yeah, that's Reservoir Dogs. This is a TV show about kids and people on a reservation in, I believe, Oklahoma. And it's just, it's a great show. Great acting, great writing, great. It's really good. Great casting. But. Oh, I was just gonna say Ethan Hawke is in Is one in the last season and he's phenomenal. Just phenomenal. But every. I mean, it's. I, I highly recommend it. It's a really. It's just. I'm. I'm happy it's on. It's one of those shows. I'm like, I'm happy this is here.

[B]

Good, good, good, good. No, I have to check that out. And I think the only other thing I would mention, I mentioned this to you, like, I'm a Ghost World super fan.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Like, I love that movie. So, so, so, so much. So, so, so much. And I often, I have on my phone saved as a, as a meme to send to people the scene, the art teacher scene with Ileana Douglas when Enid has like the racist art up and the art teacher Is like. I don't know what to say, Enid. I think it's a remarkable achievement. And I send that clip to people whenever there's something I haven't even. Horrible or dumb. Oh, my God. Can I have it?

[A]

No.

[B]

But that movie, like, is very much. So much of my sense of humor comes from that. Like that. The irony and the sarcasm and all that.

[A]

Well, so are you a Dan Close fan?

[B]

So I only. I only knew, like, I saw that movie and then I read the comic and that was all I knew of him at the time.

[A]

But now he's come out with so.

[B]

Much, so I didn't know that he come. Anything else after that. And so I need to check it out.

[A]

Oh. I mean, he. There's rarely an artist that can top themselves every single time. But, man, his. I mean, his. His stuff is just so unique. Spot on. And I will often, I'll say this to people who understand the reference, but I'll. Almost daily I'll pass somebody by in the street and they look like a Dan Close character.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Clouds. Clouds.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

And. And. Oh, man. So. So you should. So art school confident. I mean, his. The amount of stuff he's done is.

[B]

Yeah. I'm like super behind Wilson.

[A]

Don't see the movie. The movie up. The movie just took a really great premise and. And didn't do it. But.

[B]

No, but Ghost World, like, I. Patience.

[A]

Monica. His latest is called Monica. It's great. And these are like, you can. They're all filmic. Like, they're like, you can see what kind of awesome, amazing, beautiful movie this might be. And I mean, that's for every. Everything he's done. I mean, just like, really great.

[B]

See, I absorbed Ghost World and happiness and like tatoons at the same time.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

It just. It like imprinted on me in a huge way because I, like, Happiness is in top five.

[A]

Yeah. Great movie.

[B]

I live in a state.

[A]

Oh, he did the poster for it.

[B]

He did.

[A]

Yes. Oh, yes.

[B]

Know that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's so funny.

[A]

We've come full circle. It's a tiny circle because we only mentioned two things, but we made a full circle. So. So, yeah, Dan Clowes did the artwork.

[B]

For the postcard because I had the screenplay for that and it's. That makes total sense.

[A]

Yeah. Michael, thank you so much for coming down.

[B]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

All the way from Washington Heights. In the Heights, I end every episode with a question from my daughter. So who's eight now. Okay, here's your question. Okay. Michael R. Jackson, he of a strange loop. Why does each month have only 29, 30, or 31 days?

[B]

Because I said so.

[A]

Okay, there you go. There you go. Marlowe, you're. There you go. There's the answer. All right, thank you so much for coming down. And I can't wait, truly, for I'll probably skip the opera, but for your next thing.

[B]

It'S gonna be a really silly afro.

[A]

I would imagine Sense is working overtime is a Headgum podcast created and hosted by me, David Cross. The show is edited by Katie Skelton and engineered by Nicole Lyons with supervising producer Emma Foley. Thanks to Demi Druchin for our show art and Mark Rivers for our theme song. For more podcasts by headgum, visit headgum.com or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and maybe we'll read it on a future episode. I'm not gonna do that. Thanks for listening. That was a Headgum podcast.