Bend It Like Beckham with Nikkitha Bakshani

Summary

Sentimental Garbage — "Bend It Like Beckham" with Nikkitha Bakshani

Host: Caroline O’Donoghue
Guest: Nikkitha Bakshani
Episode Date: October 23, 2025

---

Episode Overview

This episode is a vibrant, affectionate deep dive into Bend It Like Beckham, the 2002 British film written and directed by Gurinder Chadha. Host Caroline O’Donoghue and guest Nikkitha Bakshani, a writer and astrologer, explore the film’s cultural impact, its themes of ambition, family, identity, and community, and why it became a beloved cult classic on both sides of the Atlantic. The conversation is full of warmth, humor, and thoughtful analysis, as the hosts share personal stories, dissect memorable scenes, and reflect on the significance of the movie’s joyful, hopeful tone.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bend It Like Beckham: A Cult Classic with Global Reach

[01:00–03:37]

• Nikkitha recounts first seeing the film in India in an empty cinema with her family—remarking on its significance for the Indian diaspora, particularly in the UK.
• Cultural Specificity: The film’s setting in a Punjabi British household (not just a generic Indian family) is important for its resonance and authenticity.
• The American distributors’ attempt to rename the film “Move It Like Mia” (after Mia Hamm) is recalled and gently mocked.
• Caroline marvels at the movie’s success: "They made it for something like 4 million quid and it grossed 75 million. It's an insane achievement for a low-budget movie ... It breaks so many records and it's so inspiring." [03:46]

2. The Power of Ordinary Life in British Cinema

[04:21–08:37]

• Caroline expresses a longing for stories "about people who live in ordinary roads and ordinary streets during ordinary times." She laments the dominance of media about rich people and big houses.

• The film's ambition in stacking multiple plotlines—sports, weddings, romance, and politics—into one cohesive narrative is praised.

  "I just love creators who throw it all the fuck in ... she throws it all the fuck in, and then she also has so much fun with it." — Caroline [05:44]

• The warmth and at times “squashed” interiors of Jess’s house are celebrated for their realism and subtle class commentary.

3. Class, Race, and Gender – The Social Fabric

[06:10–09:38]

• Both hosts discuss the film's nuanced handling of class differences, especially between Jess’s and Jules’s families—contrasting the working-class British Indian household with Jules’s aspirational, rose-gardened middle-class milieu.

• British obsession with class signifiers—sea salt vs. table salt—is playfully examined.

  "Salt is a huge, like, signifier. I feel like what kind of salt you use … says a lot." — Nikitha [09:11]

4. Summarizing the Story (with Heart and Laughter)

[09:38–14:40]

• Bend It Like Beckham is recapped:

  • Jess, a British Indian teenager, wants to play football despite her traditional family’s reservations.
  • Jules scouts Jess to join a women’s team, introducing her to a new world but creating conflicts at home.
  • The plot twists in multiple directions—sister’s wedding drama, a best friend’s coming out, a fake marriage ploy, a compassionate father, and a classic tournament vs. family obligation climax.
  • A memorable recurring gag: pictures of “bald men” (i.e., footballers) on Jess’s wall.

  “Why don’t you put up some pictures of nice eatery instead of all these pictures of bald men?” — Jess’s father, recounted by Nikitha [10:14]

• The film’s generosity toward all its characters—never demonizing Jess’s family, but giving them legitimate motivations—is highlighted.

  “I love that it never demonizes them. Their concerns are legitimate. She just doesn't share those concerns ... it feels very real.” — Caroline [15:15]

5. Parent-Child Tensions, Sacrifice, and Love

[14:40–17:45]

• The emotional backstory of Jess’s father, who was racially excluded from cricket, creates sympathy for his worries about Jess.
• The film is praised for capturing the complexity of parental fears—protective yet limiting—and the authenticity of family negotiations and compromises.

6. Parallels Between Jules and Jess

[17:06–20:48]

• Both families are under societal pressures, just of different kinds—Jess’s for cultural conformity, Jules’s for femininity.

• Jules’s mother’s comic panic about lesbianism ("Get your lesbian feet out of my shoes!") is noted as iconic, reflective of generational misunderstandings. [18:10]

• The story’s humor, with micro-jokes from the Punjabi community, makes it both deeply specific and universally relatable.

  "There is no world with being a girl where you don't have gendered expectations pushed on you. They're just slightly different." — Caroline [19:44]

7. 2000s Nostalgia: Fashion, Boobs, and British Girlhood

[20:48–23:47]

• The show has a joyfully unfiltered conversation about early-2000s fashion, body image, and the movie’s fixation on bras and boobs, filtered through personal anecdotes and warm self-deprecation.
• Nostalgia for once-unfashionable clubwear that has looped back into trend cycles.

8. The Rise of Women’s Football

[24:18–25:55]

• Women’s football, depicted as a fringe curiosity in the film, is now a massive cultural force.

• The excitement and relatability of women's sports for viewers—especially in contrast to the normatively male-coded world of football—is discussed.

  "There's something about, like, watching a girl pelted down a football pitch … I can really feel how difficult that is in a way that I just don't relate to men's bodies in the same way." — Caroline [25:40]

9. Female Bodies, Changing Rooms, and Shaznay Lewis

[26:07–30:40]

• The role of body image, especially Jess’s burn scar, is explored as both a real-life and narrative detail.
• The memorable scene where Shaznay Lewis (of All Saints) welcomes Jess to the team with a playful, awkward tampon moment is delightfully dissected.
• The joy of low-budget camp and awkward, cultish movie moments.

10. Cinematography, Artistic Choices, and the Metaphor of “Bending”

[30:40–33:25]

• The film’s visual flourishes—especially the intercut wedding/football scenes—are highlighted as unexpectedly artful for a low-budget comedy.

• The metaphor of “bending it” (around obstacles to reach your goals) is unpacked as a feminist metaphor for the film, not just a football trick.

  "For all women ... it's about the things that women have to face in order to get something—the goals they have to curve around and maneuver. But they can do it." — Nikitha [31:30]

11. Gurinder Chadha’s Personal Story

[33:25–37:06]

• Chadha’s personal history (her father’s experience with racism upon immigrating, his subsequent sacrifices, and her grief during the film’s production) is recounted for deeper context.
• The narrative of parents making sacrifices and seeking to protect children from systems they themselves could not access.
• Art as a vehicle for grief and hope.

12. The Jonathon Rhys Meyers (Irish Joe) Discussion

[37:39–46:41]

• Hilarious (and critical) deep-dive into the casting of Jonathan Rhys Meyers as ‘Irish Joe’—his unconvincing accent, predatory screen energy, and lack of chemistry.
• The "I'm Irish, of course I know" racism line is critiqued for being awkward but, according to trivia, was improvised by Rhys Meyers.
• The infamous "weird run" to the airport in the finale is described and imitated: “He kind of runs like … you know that episode of Friends where Phoebe kind of—” [44:42]

13. Music, Weddings, and Multicultural Britain

[54:22–59:47]

• The film’s soundtrack—mixing Indian and Western pop (e.g., Texas’s “Inner Smile” and bhangra remixes)—is celebrated, with the anecdote that this was the first British film to air in North Korea (!), where it won “Best Music.”

• The film’s portrayal of ordinary but opulent Indian weddings, tight-knit community, and organized chaos is described as both relatable and subversive.

  "It's just like a love letter to multicultural Britain." — Nikitha [57:59]

• The importance of showing both the positives and negatives of community—gossip, judgement, protection, and mutual dependency.

14. Personal Detail and "Beans on Toast"

[49:48–53:56]

• The revealing story behind Jess’s burn scar, both in the movie and true to lead actress Parminder Nagra’s real life, is dissected as an example of tailoring stories to suit actors and creating real emotional depth.

• This trauma, traced back to “beans on toast,” becomes a symbol for the complexity of cultural assimilation.

  “It's a beautifully haunting story of, like, extreme care, but also care that hurts you.” — Caroline [52:20]

15. On Community, Found Family, and Accepting Difference

[62:52–67:41]

• Hosts discuss the contemporary, sometimes utopian, uses of "community"—how the film wisely portrays it as noisy, flawed, and non-optional (“accepting people you don’t like for the sake of harmony”).
• Modern culture's fixation on found family tropes, but also the reality that true community requires compromise.

16. Hope, Optimism, and Emotional Power

[67:41–72:05]

• Bend It Like Beckham is lauded for its rare optimism and emotional buoyancy in a film that doesn’t shy away from real problems but centers joy and resilience.

  “Boobs, optimism, color ... that's what's so powerful about the movie.” — Caroline [67:45]

• The emotional resonance of scenes like Jules’s parents discussing their daughter's sexuality, George Michael, and the loving, often fumbling, ways parents try to show support.

  "Letting go of [your children] a bit means that they have to, as much as they can, let go of their fears for their child as well." — Caroline [69:27]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I just love creators who throw it all the fuck in ... she throws it all the fuck in, and then she also has so much fun with it." — Caroline [05:44]
• “Salt is a huge, like, signifier. I feel like what kind of salt you use ... says a lot.” — Nikitha [09:11]
• "Why don’t you put up some pictures of nice eatery instead of all these pictures of bald men?" — Jess’s father, recounted by Nikitha [10:14]
• "Get your lesbian feet out of my shoes." — Jules's mum (Juliet Stevenson), quote replayed by both hosts [18:10]
• "There is no world with being a girl where you don't have gendered expectations pushed on you. They're just slightly different." — Caroline [19:44]
• "For all women ... it's about the things that women have to face in order to get something—the goals they have to curve around and maneuver. But they can do it." — Nikitha [31:30]
• "He kind of runs like … you know that episode of Friends where Phoebe kind of—" — Nikitha [44:42] (on Jonathan Rhys Meyers’ airport dash)
• "It's just like a love letter to multicultural Britain." — Nikitha [57:59]
• "It's a beautifully haunting story of, like, extreme care, but also care that hurts you." — Caroline [52:20]
• "Letting go of [your children] a bit means that they have to, as much as they can, let go of their fears for their child as well." — Caroline [69:27]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:23] — Nikkitha’s origin story with the film
• [03:46] — Caroline on the film’s massive success and British cinema
• [05:49] — “She throws it all the fuck in”—film’s expansive scope
• [09:38] — Snapshot premise of Bend It Like Beckham
• [10:14] — "All these bald men" joke
• [14:35] — Caroline on non-demonization of Jess’s family
• [17:45/18:10] — Jules’s mum’s “lesbian feet” line
• [19:44] — Gendered expectations and girlhood
• [24:48] — Growth of women’s football and fandom
• [27:04] — Shaznay Lewis and club lockers/tampon moment
• [31:30] — The metaphorical meaning of “bending it”
• [34:54] — Gurinder Chadha’s personal connection and grief
• [37:46] — Jonathan Rhys Meyers/Irish Joe debate begins
• [44:42] — The “Phoebe run” airport scene
• [54:33] — First British film in North Korea: “Best Music”
• [57:59] — Bhangra music as UK creation; film as multicultural love letter
• [62:52] — What community really means
• [67:41] — Hopeful message, joy, and optimism

---

Final Section: Astrological Musings & Book Plug

[74:05–81:48]

• Nikitha, training as an astrologer, analyzes Jess as a “Pisces” (dreamy, compassionate, sometimes naive), and speculates Gurinder Chadha may also be a Pisces.
• The episode ends with a plug for Nikitha's novel Ghost Chile, a comic exploration of life, trauma, and family in New York, which dovetails with themes from the podcast about loving flawed people and living with emotional complexity.

---

Tone & Language

The tone throughout is candid, funny, affectionate, and occasionally irreverent—true to both the “Sentimental Garbage” brand and to the deeply felt nature of the film under discussion. Both host and guest share freely from their lives and use sharp but loving humor to approach topics ranging from pop culture to immigrant experience, family, and growing up.

---

For listeners:

This episode is essential listening for anyone who loves Bend It Like Beckham, is interested in multicultural or British cinema, grew up in the 2000s, or hungers for honest, funny, and moving conversation about how we negotiate our dreams, our roots, and our identities.

Transcript

[Advertiser]

AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI [e-mail] that's R u b r-I k.com foreign.

[Caroline]

Hello, and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where we talk about the culture we love that society sometimes makes us feel ashamed of. My name is Caroline, and there is a reason that Sporty Spice is the only one of them without a fella. When we taught our full Indian dinner, the rest is up to God. It's Nikita Pakshani.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Thank you so much for having me, Caroline. What a great intro. You. Such perfect lines.

[Caroline]

Well, this is such an exciting day. We're finally doing Bend It Like Beckham. Thank you so much for coming to me with this movie. I was so surprised when I was doing my little background research on you that you are American, that you're from New York. And I was like, wow. I think of this film as such a British film. And it kind of. It sort of almost appalled me that Americans have heard of it.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Tell me, how did it come into your life?

[Nikita Pakshani]

So I actually saw this movie when I was in India on vacation. And. And I remember it was this, like, movie theater. It's kind of this, like, movie complex that had just opened up, and it was, like, so empty. And it was just me and my family in this empty movie theater watching Bandit, like Beckham. And it was such an incredible movie. I mean, at the time when I saw it there, I was like, I've never seen anything like it. And I feel like that I think maybe because the history of Indian people in the UK is so much older. Right. Than it has been in America. Although, I mean, I'm sure there's five context I'm missing. But. But from my perception, right. It was just this kind of. Yeah. Like, it was this movie that I'm not sure I would have seen in America. And it's funny that you this. That you say this, because I was doing some research yesterday and I'd read that they want in. In America. They want to change the title of the movie to move it. Like Mia.

[Caroline]

Yes, I read that, too. After a female player I'd never heard of.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes, yes. Who's like, the tiniest part of the movie. But then like, no, we're keeping it back up. And I kind of love that because for me, this movie is so proudly British. Right. And having lived now in the UK for seven years, like, it's something that I just really like about the movie that it's really like. It's not about being like, you know, Indian diaspora, which is so vague.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's about being like an Indian person in the UK at a very specific time in a very specific community. Because so many Indian communities, like, they're not. Not a monolith. Right. She's like very much a Punjabi family.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. And so, yeah, this is. I mean, that being said, so many people in America that I know like, love this movie.

[Caroline]

Okay.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Were really, really drawn to it. I remember actually right out of college, my first internship was at this like, very kind of like, highfalutin literary magazine. And I remember like my two. The people I worked for, I don't know why we started talking about it, but they loved this movie. They absolutely loved it. And it's not the kind of movie I would expect them to hear of and be love so much, but I think it kind of took on this kind of cult status, cult classic status in the.

[Caroline]

In the US it's kind of crazy how huge it is, right? I don't really know. You don't really meet people who have seen Mended, like Beckham, who aren't obsessed with it.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And everybody, everybody I've ever met has seen it. And it's like they made it for something like 4 million quid and it grossed 75 million million. Like it's. It's an insane achievement for like a low budget movie, you know, from. From a British Indian director. Like, it's like it breaks so many records on so many levels and it's like so inspiring just as a piece of film. Like, I. I find in general, you know, this is my sort of adopted culture, I guess. I've been in the UK for 13 years and there's nothing I find more like arresting or beautiful about this country than the British film scene.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I find it to be so eternally moving to me and like, to like, like, it's like it's always like a little bit. Do you mean there's just something about, like in the opening especially as well. And I've complained about this on the podcast before, but where we. Everything that is made for us now is so intentionally about very rich people and so intentionally about big houses. And I'm so sick of seeing big houses. And I can feel my tastes really shifting to a place where I want to. I want to look at stories about people who live in ordinary roads and ordinary streets during ordinary times. And, like, I. And I hope. I think actually the consensus might be moving with me in that. On that. And so just, like, watching this girl who, like, grew up near Heathrow Airport join a football team is something, like, moving about that alone. Like. Like, watching her just be in the park with her friends is moving alone, you know? And, like, I think just. I just. I admire the ambition of it so much. And, like, I think Gurinda was sort of 42 when she made this movie. I think it was her second feature. And there's something so ambitious about it being like, no, it's not just a movie about an Indian girl who wants to play football. There's also a wedding. The wedding also gets called off. There's also an American scout. There's an Irish love interest. That's political, too. Do you know what I mean?

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's the.

[Caroline]

Like, I just love creators who throw it all the fuck in. You know, she throws it all the.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Fuck in, and then she also has so much fun with it. And I think, like, really, that's the thing that resonates, like, with this movie with me. And I think a lot of people so much is that it's just like, very joyful, you know, like, there's. Yeah, there's issues here, right? There's racism, there's sexism, there's. But it just. In the context of the movie, it's all just kind of. It works out.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And I'm so glad you mentioned the interiors and the houses, too, because I was thinking about, like, literally, the interiors of Jess's house and how, you know, there's the big picture of Guru Nadak, right, Who's, like, the saint, and they're kind of squashed.

[Caroline]

He's almost like a member of the family, the way he's referred to. Like, he might as well be flesh and blood standing there.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Exactly. Swear on Babaji.

[Caroline]

Right?

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's always there that. You know, even, like, his. The home bar, right, where the father kind of occupies this corner where it's, like, kind of his space. And then also her room, right, where. Where it's, like, kind of in the attic. Right. So the picture of Beckham is just.

[Caroline]

Kind of is literally bending.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Literally like, over.

[Caroline]

And. And.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. And, like, just. Yeah. I think, like, there's so much kind of very subtle messages about class in the family that, Yeah. I find really absent from. From movies. British movies, especially today. Right. Or. I mean, maybe I just haven't seen enough. I think I've seen a lot. I just haven't noticed it. But like, you know the part where the wedding is called off. Right. And they're kind of like. They kind of did it because they didn't think we're good enough.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

For them, like, it was definitely like them just using. Right. Jess and the potential kiss with Joe, like as an excuse to be like that family's not. They work at, you know, father works at Heathrow. Like they're working class family.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And like the. And the way that is sort of shown, the way the wedding being on, the wedding being off is sort of the taking down of fairy lights. Something just so unbelievably dear about that constantly. And then it's like, it's so. You know, in any kind of British film there is always like a. Such a. Even if it's not the. Because I would say sort of race and gender are far more. The plot and the sort of big signifiers of this movie rather than class. But even so, it is impossible to ignore class signifiers in any kind of British movie because it is the national obsession. And it's like the kind of slight differences in Jules's upbringing and the kind of. The way her mum is. Is just like. It's just the most well observed, sort of like upwardly mobile middle class woman ever. The way she like, dresses for Ascot. Like the way it works at her, like, daughter's football game. The way that house is styled. The kind of kind of rose bough that she has in the back garden. Kind of like a proscenium archway. It's just everything is so. Just perfectly both absolutely. That time and that place, but also could be a hundred years ago kind of thing for sure.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And you're right, it's so subtle. Right. It's like when Jess father is teaching her mom the rules of football. He's like, the salt is here. She's like, it's a sea salt.

[Caroline]

It's a sea salt.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And also when they're playing football and she storms on, she's like, look at the state of my fuchsias. You know, it's just.

[Caroline]

I can't believe I've seen this movie so many times and I've missed the. It's sea salt. And there's like such. There's a whole thing of like really describing what kind of salt that you had. And then we got pink Himalaya and the game was blown open.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Salt is a huge, like, signifier. I feel like what kind of salt you use Right. Like it's used as like a.

[Caroline]

At a certain point in the 90s, it became not okay to have like the granular, small salt in the big sort of pour spout. But for people who possibly haven't seen it, I can't imagine who that would be. I feel like if you've seen the poster and seen the title, you can probably guess the whole movie. But would you do us the honor of like a short premise, please?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes. Yes. So the short premise, as short as I can make it, is that this movie about Jess Barnbarra, who is, I think she's just between high school and university, she lives in Hounslow, so near Heathrow Airport, in a very traditional family that's working class and her. And she is about to go to university. But she loves football. She's obsessed with football. She's got pictures of Beckham, or as her father calls it, all these bald men.

[Caroline]

All these bald men.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. Why don't you put up some pictures of nice eatery instead of all these pictures of bald men?

[Caroline]

It's so funny.

[Nikita Pakshani]

There's so many just like little like one liners like that in this movie that just kill me every time.

[Caroline]

All of these.

[Nikita Pakshani]

But yeah, when she's obsessed with Beckham, she talks to her poster of Beckham. She loves football. That is her passion. And she's good at it. Right. And one day when she's playing at the park, she is spotted by Jules, who plays for a women's league in the area. And so Jules convinces her to join this team and kind of opens her world up to the. To the world of.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Idea of women's professional football.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Of women's professional football. And her justice family is against it. Cause they don't want her running around half naked in front of 70,000 men. You know, as her mother says in the montage in the dream montage where Gary Lineker is commenting.

[Caroline]

Oh my God, can we pause on the dream montage? It's so lovely and again, so ambitious because once again, they made this movie for $4 million that makes it a low budget movie. And they were like, you know what? No, it needs to have a kind of like. And also the technology with CGI at this point, fairly primitive compared to where we are now. We need to insert our main character into an England game. And then we need to have Gary Lineker et al narrating her. And it's like, wow, Grinda.

[Nikita Pakshani]

How did you do that? How did you fucking speak that bitch? I feel like she's striking as always. Very Persistent, you know.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. And so then back to the synopsis. And so her parents are against it. And also around this time, because this movie tries to pack in a lot successfully. Her sister is getting married, and she keeps lying to her parents about. She says that she has a summer job, et cetera. But then she keeps getting found out over and over again that she's been playing women's football. And then one day, the wedding is called off because her sister's husband's family kind of sees her hanging out with Jules and thinks that they're making out and just kind of uses it as an excuse to be like, let's call off the wedding. And then so, like, just time and time again, we see her passion for football kind of at odds with, like, her family and her being forbidden to do it. But then she just keeps going back and doing it. And then she also has a. With Jules because they both fancy their coach, Joe. Irish Joe.

[Caroline]

Irish Joe. I have so much to say on Irish Joe. But I will leave that for just one moment.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And then. Yeah, but, you know, in the end, her. Have I given a synopsis or, like, a full recap? This is good.

[Caroline]

No, it's good. It's hypnotizing, and I love it.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Okay, so then, you know, eventually. Right. Oh, there's also. There's so much in this movie.

[Caroline]

Exactly. She packs it in.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Packs it in. There's, you know, her best friend who's gay, Right. Who comes out by saying he really likes Beckham.

[Caroline]

I wonder if he was italicized in the script. Really likes Beckham.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Likes Beckham. But he, you know, he's very supportive of her. And so at her sister's wedding, which is on the same day as the tournament, he offers, like, let me take you to the football game. There's an American scout there. Play it. We can go, come back. No one will know. And she's just kind of like, absolutely not. I've, like, broken my family's heart enough. I'm not gonna do it again. But then her father comes in and notices how miserable she is, and he's like, you know what? Just like, I can't see you this sad at your sister's wedding. And so she goes and she wins. And she plays the best ever because she's not keeping secrets from her family. And so, yeah, so in the end, she comes back and, you know, they try to kind of. Tony, that's her. Her best friend, tries to, like, you know, help her out by getting her into the sham marriage. You know, so that she can go play football. But then she kind of comes out, she has her own coming out to her family where she's like, I'm not gonna hide. This is what I want to do. I really wan. To go to America and play football professionally. And I want to do it like with your blessing. I don't want to hide. And then eventually, you know, parents are like, you know what? At least I've taught you. Full Indian dinner, vegetarian and meat.

[Caroline]

The rest is in God's hands.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's up to God. Yeah. So, yeah, that's the you.

[Caroline]

I, I just love it. And I, I think there's, I think there's something very intentional with what, what they were trying to do with the Indian family in this, with this beautiful family and they there, which is that they, they are adversarial toward her, right? And like they are standing in the way of her dreams and like. But we never at any point dislike them. And also I think this is really important for any antagonist, whether you come to love them or not in a film, which is she gives them legs to stand on. Do you know what I mean? Because everything they warn her about kind of comes true. You know, there's this, the father has this wonderful backstory where he played cricket and then he was rejected for being Indian. Just pure, you know, a pure act of racism that has haunted him his entire life. And he basically says to her, like, they're not gonna, they don't have our boys playing in their leagues. Why would they have a woman? You know, and then, you know, shortly afterwards she, there is a racially provoked attack at one of the games. And you know, there's like a, there's like a moment where, you know, they tell her, you can't be running around because a lot of eyes are on us because of this marriage that we're doing. And then later on that does happen. So it's like I, I love that it never demonizes them. Their concerns are legitimate. She just doesn't share those concerns. And it's like, it's never that she turns her back on them and it's just that she's always finding these layers and levels of compromise that feels very real and that even an 18 year old girl who like is ready to sort of meet the world and go to university and strike out on her own, that she would still be making these negotiations and compromises all the time. Like one thing that I don't like about this movie is that she has this beautiful ending with joke where she says to him. Look, I've already given my parents a lot. Like, I've already put them through a lot here. I think you might be a touch too far right now. And also, I'm going to America. You know, I need to sample the delights of the United States. And they go, okay. And they have this really graceful ending. Yeah. And then he just sort of, like, comes back one and a half minute.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Later at the airport, running, running. Do we need to talk about that run? It's a crazy run.

[Caroline]

God. Love, Jonathan Rhys Meyers. Man, I don't know. There's something about that. Even though it is, like, it's like a mainstream movie about girlhood and sports and going what you want. And you go, girl. And girl power. But it still has this level of kind of measure and care and love that is, like, just beating through it the whole time that I just really loved.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. Yeah, that's so true. And there are so many parallels. Yeah. I never thought of it that way. But you're right. Like, her parents, they're not just, like, kind of cranks, crazy imagining things that aren't there. It's. They are genuinely protecting her from what they have experienced and what they perceive. And there is also what I really like about this movie, like you said, it's very intentional. There is parallels, right, with her family and Jules's family. Right. For example, when Jess and her sister are in the car together at the wedding where she's like, don't you want this? All of this wedding stuff? And she's kind of like, no, I want more than this. And then there's a kind of echo with such a rude thing to say.

[Caroline]

To your sister on a wedding day by like, I kind of want more than this. She's like, fuck you.

[Nikita Pakshani]

So true.

[Caroline]

Very true, Archie Punjabi just eating the inside of her cheek. Like, fuck you.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes, it's true. And right after, too, you know, Jules, mom storms in and says, get your lesbian feet out of my.

[Caroline]

Get your lesbian feet out of my shoes.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Lesbian. I thought she was a Pisces.

[Caroline]

For you as an astrologist. Must be very exciting to have a line like that.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, I just. I love. I've always loved that line. It's so great. And. And, yeah, but, like, there is the parallel, right, where Jules's mom's always kind of like, do you want to date that nice guy Kevin?

[Caroline]

Kevin who we never see. We're sort of like Chekhov's Kevin. We never see him.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Totally. And even, like, you know, in the end, right? Like, just like, how that Old Indian family saw perceived Jess and Jules kissing. In the end, it's near the end, it's Jules's mom that perceives Jess and Jules kissing and comes up with this whole thing that, like, has this meltdown at this wedding being like, you know, like you're together, blah, blah, blah. And it's like both Jules's mom and Pinky's husband's family have that same conclusion. So it's like kind of these very specific parallels. Right? That's kind of like. Yeah, they're very different families. Right. But there are certain things that just. They have in common. And I mean, I think that's why this movie, despite it being like, it's so. There's so many jokes that I'm. Sometimes I watched and I was kind of like, I can't believe this movie is so popular because the humor feels so Punjabi. It feels like it captured so many, like, micro jokes right within the community. And yet people just kind of like it. And I. And they get it, right? They get the humor. Because, like, she's managed to kind of draw these very smart parallels between these.

[Caroline]

Two very different people. Yeah. It's like giving a wide audience a key or a log kind of thing. Being like. Yeah. And I think as well, it's like, it's sort of drawing the kind of the major parallel, which is that, like, there is no world with being a girl where you don't have gendered expectations pushed on you. They're just slightly different. Like, for the first time we see Jules, which is like, I still. I know it's like famously Keira Knightley's breakout role, but every time I'm still like, wow, it's Keira Knightley with a boy haircut. And like, part of me is like, oh, I'm happy for her that she got Pirates of the Caribbean right after this and then became like the corset queen of the millennials. But, like, I do sort of wish that we had this slightly larger window of time with Keira Knightley where she played like a little scrapper, you know? Yes, yes, it would have been nice.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Totally.

[Caroline]

But the first time we see her, she's in like a bra shop with her mom, played by the icon that is Juliet Stevenson. Such a fucking icon. Everything she says is icon. Yeah. And she's like talking her through all these different push up bras, which was like, I don't.

[Nikita Pakshani]

With the little extra pump that comes into the sides.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, the pump.

[Nikita Pakshani]

How does a bra work? So you just carry like a pump with you. Like a bicycle, you know, and you're like, where it loses air and then you refill it. It's crazy.

[Caroline]

It's nuts. And it really brought me back. I was like, wow, this film is obsessed with boobs.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, it is.

[Caroline]

And Also the early 2000s was obsessed with boobs.

[Nikita Pakshani]

So true.

[Caroline]

I. To give you some very personal information, I'm a late in life massive rack owner.

[Nikita Pakshani]

So.

[Caroline]

So I was like, like I grew up with like Keira Knightley as being like my icon of being like, she's flat chested, I'm flat chested, she's gorgeous. I aspire to certain aesthetic ideals. Yeah. And then when I was about 17, I suddenly had like, like double Ds overnight. It was to the point where like, sometimes I feel like I'm like, now I have like my. I have a G set of boobs. Like it's crazy. And like I feel like my own teenage boy sometimes.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because it came like my identity as a girl was so formed by the time they came along. I'm like a woo guy. Like, what's going on over there?

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's. It's a whiplash. You know, it's like you live your life like, because. Yeah. You know what's funny? The movie is obsessed with boobs. And I was thinking about this in the context if you don't want that in Germany, right. And they're at the disco and the top that Keira Knightley corset queen is wearing is like the opposite of a corset. Cause like, it doesn't have like you can't have boobs and wear that top.

[Caroline]

Oh my God, that top is an oil slick.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's crazy. It's nuts.

[Caroline]

I have to say I'm sorry. I'll get back to the boobs in one second. But while we're on the German night out, I love again the sort of humble aims of British film. The big outing of this movie is they go to Cologne or. No, they go to Frankfurt or Hamburg.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's one of them.

[Caroline]

Something. It's so unglamorous.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, exactly. And I think also like the movie. I don't know why this detail really came out to me, but on the airplane it just says Hamburg.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It doesn't say like Reiner.

[Caroline]

I mean, Hamburg Express. So strange. And. Yeah. And they're in the club. But I do think that those outfits that Jess and Jules wear are among the best clubbing outfits.

[Nikita Pakshani]

They're so good.

[Caroline]

Just Jess, that outfit I wanted so badly. I mean, it wouldn't look good at Me, because of the boobs. The sort of like the backless string thing with the sort of almost leather effect, sort of almost velvet.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

She looks so good.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Stunning.

[Caroline]

And then you've got the Kira in the top.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It's just the best couple going out outfits I've ever seen, for sure.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And you know what's so funny is that I realized I was kind of like, oh, wow. Like, you know, early 2000s, since fashion is having its moment. Because, like, when I looked at that club scene, I was like, people just dress like that now.

[Caroline]

They do.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It hasn't changed.

[Caroline]

They truly do.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's like. I mean, it's changed, but it's just come back.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I'm here for it.

[Caroline]

I love it. It's so strange because I'm. I'm 35 and so I was a thinking sort of almost teen when this came out. And, you know, seeing all those outfits and all this stuff as being the height of glamour. And also women's football being very much a twinkle in the culture's eye. Do you mean, like, it was understood that that was something women did do somewhere? I guess, like in the same way that it's presented in this film really being like. I guess women have to play competitively, I suppose.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And now watching it, first of all, the fashion, as you say, has come all the way back around. So much of it I would wear now, even at the casual wear, all the kind of like, Jess has this sort of like sleeveless tracky top where I'm like, okay, where do I get that? Yeah, I would like to be on the treadmill in that for sure. And the. Yeah. And now the women's game in football. I mean, partially, I think, with credit to movies like, this has become such a huge enterprise. Like, women's football is fucking huge now.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. And it's amazing, too. Like, I remember around the time I first moved to this country when I was living in Southeast London. I think it was like the women's final or something like that. I remember going to the pub and it being like, just as exciting, just as packed, you know, just as much exuberance and energy for the women's team, like, just. And it was the first of my life, Right. I'd seen, like, so many people show up. It was the same. It was like. Yeah, literally the same amount of enthusiasm, packed room as a men's football match. And that's. That's pretty cool.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I mean, I would say women's football games are the only football games I have watched. To completion.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And that is like. Like, first of all, it's just like, the girls want to go see the girls. That's just one of the facts of life. And, like, there's something about, like, watching a girl pelted down a football pitch where, like, because I have the same kind of body, I just think, like, oh, wow, I know what it's like to run with boobs.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It sucks. And so I just. I just feel. And I kind of got it for the first time. I was like, oh, wow. I can really feel how difficult that is in a way that I just don't relate to men's bodies in the same way. So therefore, it feels sort of alien to me, you know?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. And I'm so glad we're talking about boobs again, because, like, you're right. No, no. This movie is obsessive. There's so many, like, you know, kind of close ups, right. Of, like, of boobs in this way that I love.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And then, like, I think it's Chesney Lewis's.

[Caroline]

I was so curious.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Because, like, you know, because I think there's a scene, right, where she's kind of, like, trying to change her top. Like, yeah.

[Caroline]

Jess is trying to get in.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And then, like, the girls are just.

[Caroline]

Like, like, whipping it off. Yeah. Can we zero in on Shaznee Lewis's boobs for a second?

[Nikita Pakshani]

She's so beautiful.

[Caroline]

First of all. Yes, she is. Second of all, I. I remember on the way over here, I was like, I wonder if Nikita knows who Shazna Lewis is.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I only, you know, I knew All Saints, right? And I. I knew, like, kind of some instinct right, in me knew that. Okay. They keep mentioning this, like, male character, right. She must be famous, right? In some way, like some kind of cameo. Right? Because the way they talk about her is a little bit like, like, oh, there she is.

[Caroline]

Yeah. The captain.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then. Yeah. But I actually. I knew All Saints, and I kind of recognized her as, like, a face in a British girl group, but I didn't know her name literally, until, like, a week ago.

[Caroline]

Okay. Okay. It's so exciting seeing her there, cuz, like, can I just, like, talk you through Beat for Beat, like, Anatomy of a Scene here, please?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Like, so, okay, we have Jess's sort of first practice, as you say. She has that moment where she's like. And also. And we'll get back to in a second. But, like, she has this big burn scar on her leg that she's insecure about. She's never really shown her body before. She's in the situation where she's in locker room with girls and they're all sort of out and proud and they're fun and it's great. Shaznay Lewis whips her top off. The most perfect breasts you've ever seen.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's like very like Ann Summers coded, sort of black, lacy bra. Like, okay, you're like queen.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I think there's like diamante sort of on it. It's very, very 2002. And then she. She holds up a tampon and she goes, welcome to the Hounslow Harriers. I've got the painters and decorators in. See ya. And then just walks and she's. Oh, my God, look, I've never seen. It's so funny. It's so. It's so kind of perfectly awkward and like, in a way that I don't know. With much love and respect to Chasnay, it does feel like, okay, it's a low budget movie, they didn't get a whole lot of takes, and this is not a professional actress, so the delivery is so camp. And there's kind of no pause between welcome to the Hounslow Harriers and I've got the painters and decorators in.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Totally. And you know what's funny? It would make sense. I wouldn't like it, but it would make sense if it was some kind of product placement for like Tampax or something.

[Caroline]

No, it's generic. It's generic tampon.

[Nikita Pakshani]

So it's like they did all of that, but not for, like money, just.

[Caroline]

Cause it's awkward, but not for, like, money. Yeah, yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's like, it wasn't like a way to budget the film. Nothing like that. It's just awkward. And also this term, you know, I think I learned this term having the painters in from reading books like Angus Thongs and Full Frontal Song when I was like, yeah, a tween, which I.

[Caroline]

Believe Grinda also directed that. Right?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes, you're right. I forgot about that. So maybe there's a connection there. Yeah, I mean, I feel like they're both very quintessentially British.

[Caroline]

Quintessentially British. Girls bodies and how weird they are I think is part of it.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes, yes. And so I remember being like, what does that mean? And then like, yeah, my friends and I loved those books. And we were like, I think that means Shazepyrean.

[Caroline]

Because the thing is, once again, and with the greatest of respect to Shazna Lewis, who has the perfect angel voice, Is an icon and beautiful breast. I feel like it's like it's either you get the painters in or you have the decorators in. One or the other. Welcome to the Hounslow Harriers. I've got the painters and decorators in.

[Nikita Pakshani]

You are so right. Because, like, what does the decorator do? What extra does the decorator do?

[Caroline]

It's so bizarre. It's so funny to me. But again, it's like, that is what makes a movie like this. Like that. What's. What makes a cult movie into a sort of a blockbuster movie. Right. Is like, you have these beautiful moments of, like, incredible cinematography. Like, I think one of the most I was like in full tier is just from the basic artistic expression of it in the kind of back half of the movie where we're splicing between the football game and the wedding. And both are so beautifully shot and they're so percussive and propulsive. And it's just. It's just that, like, that great feeling you get when a filmmaker is just working at the fucking top of their game. And you're so glad that they have the tools they have and the people they have. And then you have these, like, camp strange moments. But that's also what makes the movie sing as well. It's like both of those things getting together.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And, yeah. I'm glad you mentioned the cinematography because I think upon, like, watching it for, like, a couple of times recently.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I just. It had never occurred to me the first time I watched it how thoughtful it was. Like, you know, that kind of splice scene. And as I was reading some trivia about it, like, I read that that the reason Gurendar Chadha wanted to call it Bended, like Beckham was like. Because of that, I had to learn what Bended actually meant. I learned that last night. Having watched this movie, I don't fully.

[Caroline]

Know what it means, to be honest.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Okay. So basically, it's a move that Beckham either pioneered or I think he invented it, where it's like if you kick a ball and it goes around the people who are blocking you for the penalty and it goes into the goal. So it's like.

[Caroline]

Did not know that. I've been watching this movie for 20 years. Yeah. Had no idea.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I mean, it kind of feels like it should be curve it. But I don't like Becca. It doesn't have the same. Doesn't have the same ring to it. But the reason she called it that is because there's, you know, in the end, right when the opera music is playing and she's doing penalties and she sees, like, her mom and sister in their Indian clothes. Like, it's about getting around like that and getting it in the goal and. But Chadha said it was like, for, like, all women, you know, it was like the, the things that women have to face in order to get something right, the goals, they have to kind of like, go around and curve around and maneuver, but they can do it. Right. That's the, the thing. It was so, in a way, it's almost kind of like a celebration of that experience of just kind of going around to get the journey. It's the journey as much of the destination, I guess.

[Caroline]

That's lovely. That's so lovely. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's so effective. And like, it's like you don't realize that the whole movie is building to that. And because it's that thing of, like, we're splicing between that wedding and that game and she's sort of learned the whole movie to keep these or she's behaved in the whole movie that in order for her to have both lives, she must keep them separate. But it's the kind of eventual merging that, like, that makes her win, you know, Gets her everything she wants.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Absolutely. And yeah, and even with that scene, right, I think before the game, she's, like, playing by herself in the backyard of their house and there's a clothesline of, like, all the Indian clothes hanging. And she kind of, she does bend it, right. She kind of kicks the ball so it goes around there. And that kind of echoes that final scene where, like, you know, she has that mirage, right? The vision. So, yeah, there's just so many little subtle things that I think that, you know, we, we all love this movie. Right? But, like, I don't think I really appreciated that kind of, like, artistic. The technique, you know, of, of, yeah. Like a filmmaker at the top of her game, as you say.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, it's. And it's so. Oh, it's so wonderful because I think as well, like, you know, being a female football player is, is really not unlike being a female director in that there are very few of them we know that full names of for sure. You know, and there's. We're really only allowed to have a few at a time and then. And they are constantly being canceled or dismissed or, or whatever. Or, like, it's so I, I, I can, you can really see her bringing herself to this. Like. Yeah, like how, like, like we, we are still In a world where, like, particularly in movie, it's better in tv, but movie directors, we are still seeing that as a male job and. Yeah. Yeah. I just love. I love it. I loved thinking about her making this movie about this girl who's trying to get everything that she wants while she was getting everything that she wanted.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. There's a kind of real. You can tell, like, that the movie is very special to her because, like, if I yesterday, I was watching, like, the end credits, right, and she has, like, a bit of bloopers behind the scenes, right. And it seemed like they just had so much fun on the set, you know, And I. I really believe this about all art. Right. Like, you can always tell when you read a book, when you watch a movie, whether somebody had fun writing it because that just kind of bleeds through to the final product. And I think that was really the case here, both, like, the having the fun part, but then also it. Me being something very personal and emotional for her and it kind of coming out in this. In this way. That's. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I was listening to her because she dedicated to her father. And like, you can I believe her father died quite shortly before they started making it. And I listened to her Desert Island Discs earlier today, and she was talking about how she knows that looking back on that movie now, all she really sees is the grief that she felt on losing him. And how she tells a story about how when they were. So she was born in Kenya and then her parents moved to Britain in the 70s, and then her father worked in Barclays bank in Kenya. And then he sort of applied for the same job in Southall and was escorted off the premises. He wasn't just refused the job, he was, like, thrown out. And it was this huge, huge, horrible shame. And he was Sikh, so he had the turban and long hair and everything. And he sort of shaved his head to work in Britain. Like, huge, huge violation, really. Thing to have to do to provide for your family. And said all the time that if he could afford the plane, the airfare back, that he would have done so. And then she talks about, like, you know, when. When she got her bank statements for her first film about how she saw it all was filtering through on the bank statement that was going through the same branch that he was thrown out of and how that was this kind of strange thing for her, but how he would. Because of the experience that he had of, like, trying to break into institutions that didn't want to have him there, how he was always trying to protect her from institutions that he believed wouldn't want her there either. And like, that. It really. And I. You know, you get. It's not just an immigrant experience. Sometimes it's like, you know, it's a queer experience or it's even whatever. Basically, it's, you know, it's kind of a child's job to make it into the rooms their parents never could, you know, whatever room that means. And then, you know, so many people in the arts sort of say, you know, oh, my parents didn't want me to pursue this. And it's. Because it's. It's. I just. I'm so. My heart is so broken by the idea of the, like, wanting to protect your child because of your lived experience and therefore not being able to believe that. That your lived experience could. Could evolve kind of thing or think or. Or time could evolve or whatever. And. Sorry, I'm expressing myself badly, but only because it just moved me so much, you know?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it. It goes back to what you said before, right? Like, her parents have very legitimate concerns, and. And, yeah, it's that kind of like the job of the parents to, like, protect the child. But, like, at, you know, at what point is it too much? At what point is it, like, you know, like, becoming, like, you have to just, like, let go. Right. And be like, you know what? Like, I can't protect them from this kind of disappointment that I felt. They're just gonna have to, like.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Face that on their own.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And that's just really beautiful.

[Caroline]

It is. It really is. Can we talk about bloody Irish Joe?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Well, I would love to hear your thoughts on Irish Joe. Yeah.

[Caroline]

They're so complex. Okay. They're so complex. Because first of all, I would like to front load by saying that Jonathan Rhys Meyers is from my hometown.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Really?

[Caroline]

So why does he sound like that? Why does he sound like an American model who is, like, putting on an Irish accent sometimes? Yeah, I can't really explain that.

[Nikita Pakshani]

So is he actually Irish?

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Nikita Pakshani]

What? I didn't Cork. I just assumed he was doing, like, Irish voice, you know, like, kind of like.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God.

[Nikita Pakshani]

So.

[Caroline]

Dude. Right, right. It's so disturbing. It's very strange. And he has had a huge amount of, like, personal issues, and he's had addiction issues. And, like, I feel my heart goes out to him and his recovery and his life. And I think he's probably lovely, but, like, he has an evil vibe. Like. Like, his screen presence, at its best, is evil. Like, he's one of my favorite movies is Vanity Fair, the sort of 2003 version. And he is like George Osborne in that. And he is like, an incredible, like, evil playboy who's sort of weak and screws over the girl. And it's like, yes, you're in exactly the role you're supposed to be in. Like, you should be the cad forever and then eventually become Judas, you know? But, like, the. Putting him in this role, he feels, like, sadistic and predatory to me. Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

There's like, an intensity to his gaze, you know, Like.

[Caroline]

Yeah, right. If it was an actor, like, say, Josh o'. Connor. Do you know what I mean? Like, off the top of my head. You know what I mean? Somebody who's, like, hot right now or whatever. Somebody who's got kind of a softness to them or a playfulness to them, and you can sort of see, like. Oh, yeah, it's kind of funny. You're, like, a cute guy, and you also teach the girls and you hang out with them, but you keep your distance. But one of them really gets under your skin. Like, you could so see it's not even an age issue or a power issue, because he's probably, like, 22. It's just a fucking vibe issue. And, like, I understand that casting him, that Gwynne Ochalla might have seen him and been like, wow, that guy is like a pinup waiting to happen. Like, he looks like he's carved from ivory. The character I've written is Irish. He's Irish. This is perfect. But it just. To me, they have no real chemistry. And I think it. It kind of supports the sort of the cult theory of this movie, which is that it feels like it was supposed to be a lesbian movie, and then that they swerved. They bended it at the last moment. Even though Greta Chadha has said many times that this was never meant to be a lesbian, it just came out that way.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

With Keira Knightley's strong lesbian vibe, you know?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. Well, also, you're right. They just don't have much chemistry at all.

[Caroline]

They don't talk about anything that isn't, like, her career or her family or, like, how she's gonna get around her family to get to her career.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. Yeah. And, like, even, like, the. Because he. You know, he has the whole thing where his, like, dad was, like, really tough. And you know what I read, actually, which was so interesting, is apparently that line that is like. I don't know. I feel like all of, like, the, like, Indian American, the diaspora bloggers, they're always like, that line is so offensive. It stated so badly. Blah, blah. I don't, I don't personally believe that.

[Caroline]

Oh, the bit where he's like, I'm Irish, of course. I know. That is crazy. It's very triggering to me, that line. Me and the Indian Dysora are pissed off about that.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes. I mean, I'm just kind of like, whatever. But apparently he improvised that line and the character wasn't meant to be Irish, but he'd, like, kind of like, said it in, in practice, and then they made him Irish, which is like. So then the fact that he is actually Irish is, like, kind of throwing me for a loop now.

[Caroline]

Crazy.

[Nikita Pakshani]

But maybe that's why that thing is coming off where he's like, he's Irish, but he seems like an English person pretending to be Irish.

[Caroline]

Ye. He seems like an American person pretending to be Irish. Like, it's worse. The thing is, the thing. Why I find that so, so, yeah, she's like, yeah, someone calls her a racial slur at a game and she pushes them. She gets red carded. She storms off. She says, you'd never understand. Which, by the way, he wouldn't. And then he says, of course I understand. I'm Irish. And to me, it's like, I have, I have sat on this podcast so many times with people who have different experiences to me, whether that's, you know, racially, religiously, whether they come from whatever. And, And I've said, like, I, I, I've tried to say very carefully, like, oh, as an immigrant also, it's kind of maybe, let's try and find connection points. But I, I so understand that I'm. I'm not working on that level at all. But please, here's my experience. Like, I'm.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. And like, meanwhile, this guy's like Harry.

[Caroline]

And every, every time in my head, I am couching it in, like, don't be Jonathan Rhys Myers. Don't be Jonathan Rees Myers.

[Nikita Pakshani]

But, you know, maybe it's because he looks like that. Maybe it's because he kind of looks, like, intense and chiseled when he says that. I'm kind of like, it kind of makes sense for his character, which is just kind of like that.

[Caroline]

It's like, dude, I think people just don't like you. I just don't believe it. I just don't. I don't believe anything about him. Yeah, I like looking at him, for sure.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But, yeah, I mean, it's amazing that he's such a big part of the film, and I adore the film. Yet I don't think he works at all.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, you know, I've had so many people tell me whether they're Indian, you know, just girls of all different races. Yeah, some men, too, who said that, like, their hormones kicked in when they saw Jonathan, Rhys, Meyers and Bennett, like, Beckham, you know, in that white button down shirt coming in, like, you know, eating dirty, not, you know, uninvited to, like, be like, you need to let Jess play on the team. And then I've heard just as many people say that all of that left in the final scene where they have that awkward kiss. Hash, not kiss. And also he does that weird run, you know what I mean, where he.

[Caroline]

Like, I did not clock the run, but I would like you to explain the run to me.

[Nikita Pakshani]

So. The run. So, you know, it's funny, I did not clock the run either, but when I worked at that magazine in New York, that was. My bosses were obsessed with that run. They would, like, imitated it, right? Because he kind of, like, moves his arms in kind of circles and his legs in circles too, you know? And like, literally I'd be sitting at work at my first internship, and my bosses would, like, run around like that, imitating him because they thought the Rockefeller was so ridiculous. And I was like, okay, this must be like a weird quirk of those bosses. But then I was talking to my co worker about it last week, and she was kind of like, that run was crazy. I was like, do multiple people think this? And she was kind of like, you know, the thing is, he coaches football, right? He of all people should know how to, like, not run like an idiot. He kind of runs like. You know that episode of Friends where Phoebe kind of.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, it's the same run. Oh, my God. Is it like. It's like in the grand tradition of races to the airport in rom coms. Is it bottom of the pack?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Bottom. It is rock bottom.

[Caroline]

It's bottom narratively because they've already had this kind of really graceful, lovely goodbye. That really works for me as an artistic move. I can understand why maybe a test audience were like, no, we can't do that. She must kiss the boy. She must. But so it's bad narratively. It's bad on a cinematography level. And also, David Beckham is in the background. Yeah. Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Well, thank God he's there, right? Because then it cuts that scene. It's like, oh, my gosh, Beckon's there. Let's move the camera away and just focus on the body double.

[Caroline]

Also, the kiss is Bad. Yeah, the kiss is bad.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's not a good kiss. It kind of like happens. Not happening.

[Caroline]

They look away.

[Nikita Pakshani]

She's not even, like, facing him for half of it. It's weird.

[Caroline]

They don't seem like two actors who spend a lot of time together, do they? It feels like two actors who. They wanted to only film this once and they wanted to really make sure they were rolling, so they were just. Just like sliding their eyes like, is this good? Is this okay?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I don't. I don't want to do this again. So can we do it? Is it all right?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Totally, totally. And so when the psych gets back and they're like, oh, thank God, we can stop now.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

No chemistry.

[Caroline]

No chemistry.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Oh, and as well, when he goes to that final game where finally everything comes together and it's so beautifully done. He is dressed like he's there for the World Cup. He's there in a three piece suit.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Everything about that character is off for me. Absolutely everything. And also the foot thing is weird. Like, he makes. He, like, randomly punishes her for chatting to Jules in, like, training, and then he makes her do laps, and then she hurts herself because he makes her do so many laps. And then he shouts at her to stop doing laps, and then he just massages her foot in, like, a very predatory way.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I'm sorry if people are really hot for this, but, like, I don't see it.

[Nikita Pakshani]

You know, Caroline, I think the foot thing might be unfortunately, like, a weird Indian thing. I'm not saying that a country, a billion people have foot fetish. What I am saying is that, like, so in. So it's. My mom was telling me this. It just blew my mind. So, like, in Indian courtship, in, like, in brothels, right? And like, kind of Mughal India, right, You would have these courtesans. And the courtesans back then, like, in. In the Indian culture at the time, they weren't like, seeing. Seen as prostitutes per se. I mean, it's what they did. But they were seen as almost like confidants, right?

[Caroline]

Like kind of a geisha vibe.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes, yes, exactly. And then, you know, colonials kind of came and changed all of that. But there's this kind of hangover from that time because they. A lot of Indian classical dancing, right, is done barefoot and you have, like, anklets and you.

[Caroline]

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

You know, so it's, like, seen as this kind of like, very, like, sensual part of the body. And my mom was telling me, like, it's kind of made its way Throughout Bollywood and, like, very. And there's this one very famous song that it's like from some movie where, you know, a man is on a train and he sees a prostitute and, like, the blanket, like, falls off and he just looks at her feet for like an hour and sings a song about it. And I was like, oh, God. I think this is like this foot thing goes way back.

[Caroline]

Oh, my. I'm so glad I know that now.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I mean, like, this is what I mean. This is just my. One of my pet theories.

[Caroline]

I mean, it seems pretty. Yeah. Like, it's a pretty well researched theory, I feel.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes. Because I was just kind of like, why? Very gratuitous foot massage. There has to be something. Something else going on here.

[Caroline]

And it is. God, the more you know. Wow. Yeah. I mean, like. Yeah, I suppose if you're, like, making this movie and you're like, you know, football feet.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's called football, I guess.

[Caroline]

Feet, ball, you know, let's see your foot. Let's see your foot. How about.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, yeah, totally.

[Caroline]

I love it now. I love it.

[Advertiser]

AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unlock, unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI [e-mail] that's R U B R I K dot com.

[Caroline]

From building timelines to assigning the right people and even spotting risks across dozens of projects, Monday Sidekick knows your business. Business thinks ahead and takes action. One click on the star and consider it done. And I owe it all to you. Try Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use on Monday.com. you know what? I really love the beans on toast story.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline]

Because it's kind of like the one thing that they talk about that is sort of nice and funny. And I'm found today, as I'm sure you probably did too, while reading the trivia section of IMDb, that the actress Parminda Nagra, she had that same injury. So the story that she tells on screen as Jess is what happened to her as a young kid that she was trying to make toast when she was a child, that she stood on sort of a stepladder in order to reach the toast on the top sort of grill, which is sort of like such a beautiful little detail.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Just.

[Caroline]

I kind of forgot that we used to make toast that way and that her tracksuit pants caught A flame. Her sister put her in the bath and then tore the trousers off her and then her skin came off as well. It's a harrowing story. It's so awful. It is the worst thing you can imagine happening to an 8 year old. And it really happened to her. And then it really happened to the character as well. And what's so lovely about that is that I really do think that, like, we should sort of. I think about this a lot lately because I'm writing for the screen at the moment, that, like, a character really should be shaped like couture to the performer. You know, it's kind of.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Of.

[Caroline]

It's not. Not in every situation, obviously, but if a actor is bringing something to a role that is, like, hard to ignore, whether it's like a facial feature or a tick or a accent or their height or whatever that, like, you would kind. It's kind of almost wasteful not to use it in something like. Because in this world, of course, these people are observing them in the same way that people would observe this actor in the normal world. And so for them to bring this story about this actress's life into the script, it kind of, first of all, it gives them something more intimate to talk about that isn't just football or her family. But second of all, it kind of like, accidentally almost grounds the relationship with her sister in a way that I found really moving because her and the sister are at odds all the time. Pinky, who's a few years older and who's getting engaged. And she's very much. It's kind of very much framed as like she is sort of upholding and joyfully upholding every kind of like, female stereotype that's expected of her. She wants to get married, she wants to have a big wedding. She wants to have loads of outfits. It's great. And they can never really see each other or understand each other through this. And they have very few moments of harmony within the film itself. But, like, having this recollection of, like, oh, my sister put me in the bath and tore my clothes off and the skin came off too. It's this kind of. Of beautifully haunting story of, like, extreme care, but also care that hurts you, you know?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And that being this kind of lovely little metaphor for the sister relationship, in a way, you know.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. The sister relationship. The whole family relationship too. Right. It's like they care so much, but it's a little. It's too much. It comes at the price. Right. Of like.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Of just herself. And I just. I Love that detail, too. And it's, you know, the fact also that it's something so, like, mundane, like beans on toast. Right.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It feels, like, hidden. It also feels like such a. There's, like, a cultural thing there, too, where it's like beans on toast. Very quintessentially, like, British food. She wasn't burning it on, like, you know, Alugobi.

[Caroline]

Right, right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It was like. It was that, like, this attempt to kind of, like, make something. To make something so British, kind of, like, backfiring.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. I hadn't even thought of it.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's. It's very layered story, and it's so true. And I think, in a way, like, that's what, you know, because I've written plays in the past, and I. I, you know, I dabble in writing for dialogue, screen, et cetera. And that's one thing that I think that's so lovely about writing, like, in a collaborative space like that, where it's like you almost. You can't be too precious.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

About the words. Just leave a little bit of flexibility, because a performer. Right. Might bring in something that's, like, such a gem. Right. That you just kind of have to, like, let it be, like, a group project.

[Caroline]

Right, right. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm in the process of like, changing something about a character right now to sort of potentially fit an actor. And. And watching this movie again last night, I had this real, like, light bulb moment. Being like, oh, yeah. They would have been crazy not to have used that story, you know, and it adds so much, and it was like, I don't know, it felt like one of those artistic sort of, like, kismet moments where I was like, thank.

[Nikita Pakshani]

You for that, Gorinda Chapman.

[Caroline]

I really appreciate it, babe.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. I mean, much better than the Irish improvisation from.

[Caroline]

Listen, like, 90% of her instincts are good.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes, yes. So you don't always have to do what the performer says, but in this case.

[Caroline]

Good job.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Good. Good move.

[Caroline]

Good job. Is there anything else in the movie you want to talk about? I feel like we've skidded around quite a lot.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes. Well, you know what? I, I. One of the most fascinating pieces of trivia that I came across was that this movie was the first British movie to ever air in North Korea.

[Caroline]

What?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes. And it was like something like the. Some kind of thawing of relations where it was the first time in 10 years a British representative had gone to North Korea. And it was like, gifted screen. Right. Heavily edited in the Pyongyang Film Festival, where it won the award for best music.

[Caroline]

Best music, yes.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Which is interesting. That had me think a lot about the music in this film, which I really love, because it kind of does this good job of kind of blending the, like, Indian music with the Western music. And a lot of it is like kind of iconic songs. Right. That I'd heard in childhood, like, remix slightly to be more like Dancy and 90s and. Yeah, I just. I agree with the. The North Koreans on this one. I think just that, you know, what.

[Caroline]

We said about North Korea, great taste in music. So what about Inner Smile, the Texas track that is so associated with this movie?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. It's just. I cannot unsee that song from this movie. They're just tied. It almost feels like it was made for this movie. Obviously it wasn't, but I think it's because that montage, too, where it happens, right. Where there's the volume of music and then there's them playing football. Right. And that song playing. It's just. Yeah. I mean, it's. I think that scene captures the song so well because, like, I was listening to the song on the way here and just listening to the lyrics and it was kind of like. Yeah. I mean, the fact of, like an inner smile. Right. It's like, well, what's your outer smile? What is your outer smile doing? You're not smiling on the outside. You know, there's a kind of hideousness to that.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And it's kind of great as well because that line that her dad specifically says to her is, go to your football game, come back and smile.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes. Yeah. It's just. I think it's like a very well chosen song. And then there's the song that plays. It's Nusrat Fatih Ali Khan, who is a Pakistani Sufi m. Like, he's very. He's got this very special voice. And. And Jeff Buckley was actually like a huge fan of his and had kind of like, he idolized him. And you actually weirdly see a lot of similarities, like Jeff Buckley and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. And one of his most famous songs is remixed in one of the wedding scenes. And it's just like. Yeah. And also the. This is such a subtle detail, but early in the movie, she says something like, oh, you know, I don't know why my parents won't let me play football. I never did any. I never went to the daytimers that.

[Caroline]

Like Pinky and her, like, day raves, Right?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes, yes. And I just like, this is. I think maybe this is something actually, even when I was In America. Maybe it was part of the reason I moved to this country. Like, I just thought it was so interesting, right? So I was looking more into these day raves and, like, what are they? And it was that, like, usually because especially these traditional families in the north of England, young Indian kids would go, like, during school, like, to these raves where they would play bhangra music, which is like a mix, right. It's a kind of a dancey version of Punjabi songs that I grew up in India, Right. I thought bhangra was Indian full stop. But then it was only later I realized, no, it's actually British.

[Caroline]

Really?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes. It was DJs in, like, you know, Birmingham and just all over England who had kind of remixed these, like, Punjabi songs with, like, a bit of a dance beat. And it would be so popular, like, in these raves. And now, like, bunger music is, like, the standard. It's so popular all over India. But it was, like, so interesting to me that it was born. It came from the uk. Okay.

[Caroline]

That's so cool.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And so for me, like, this movie, the fact that she used so much of bonker music in this movie just really kind of echoes this. This thing that I love about this movie, which is just. It's just like a love letter to multicultural Britain, you know?

[Caroline]

Yeah. And the way that sort of, like, played visually so much as. Well, like, one of my favorite shots in the whole movie. Like, obviously we have the wedding. And, like, the wedding is just so gorgeous and so, so opulent, but so true at the same time. Because, like, the. I think it's happening in, like, a community hall, right? Like, kind of an unglamorous space that has been, like, made glamorous for the day. And it's. And also there's, like, scenes in, like, Jess's house where they're, like, dancing in the hallway while Jonathan Rhys Meyers looks on. And this kind of. It's so kind of packed and colorful and joyful, and you really get this, like, immediate sense of, like, why you would do everything to protect this. I was like, yeah, I would, like, forbid my daughter from dating a white guy, too. He's got cuz. What if we got a bunch of white guys in here? We can't do this. They would find it weird and we'd feel weird doing in front of them.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's so true. And, like, I love that you know, it. It's. This is one of those things where it's like. I think what she captured is, like, she captured Indian weddings so well.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Because you can't have an Indian wedding without like six things going wrong, right? And like there's a part where like they're beating up the videographer, right?

[Caroline]

Because the videographer like gets the two guys guy kissing in the bathroom.

[Nikita Pakshani]

That's a weird guy who like motorboats her mother in law or something. I was like, who is this guy? Cuz that's another thing in Indian way. There's always some weird cousin from India who just kind of like shows up and you're like, who is this? You know, this is the kind of thing that she's like, she's capturing like such a relatable thing in this community so well and it still kind of works as a larger phenomenon.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's like characters we've never seen and we'll never see again. But like just this like tiny vignette. It's like, oh yeah, of course I know exactly who that is.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Totally. And, and yeah, like. And just that in. I think it's during the engagement party or something like that when Jonathan versus Maris once again shows up at the house and he's uninvited. Yeah, uninvited being like, I'm sorry to interrupt your festivities. I'm Irish.

[Caroline]

I understand.

[Nikita Pakshani]

But like when they're talking, right, and it's just the two of them, suddenly they're interrupted because someone in the party is like, Bali, Bali, Bali. And I'm like, this is so. It's so Indian.

[Caroline]

It's. It's so. It's so cool. It's so gorgeous. Sorry, I forgot to say my favorite favorite shot which was the back garden when it kind of pulls out and it's like you see the other gardens that are just. Everything's just like plain placid Britain carrying on as normal. And this like big fucking party happening in the back garden. It just rules. It just looks great.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's. And it's so refreshing because I mean this is like a bit of a, a tangent. But I feel like nowadays, right, like Indian weddings have become so. They've become this kind of like status showing off thing. Like I think there was some billionaire who got married. Indian wedding had like Beyonce, Rihanna, like all of these people there on a boat. It was very showy and it was, it was a little bit, I thought frankly like a little bit disgusting. Just cuz it's like, you know, there's like so many. So much pain and so much wrong in the world. It's like, why are you using your money for that? Yeah, right, but, yeah, but like, you know, and I've been to enough Indian weddings now, you know, where it's kind of like it's been co opt. All of these like, traditions have been co opted and it's become about like money and, and thing. And so it's nice. It was just so nice in this movie to see like an Indian wedding that was just really about like community and kind of like having this, this really sweet celebration, right. Of just of that culture and like protecting it and nurturing it in a space that doesn't necessarily accommodate it.

[Caroline]

Right, right. And. And the thing as well, of like. Because throughout the movie we hear again and again of sort of like the gossip of living in this community and the watchfulness and like, you know, Jess has so many of her sort of like plans scuppered just by people seeing her somewhere doing something, you know, and then it's like you get this huge moment of release at the very end being like, but this is why we have a tight community, is because we get to be ourselves around each other and we do look at each other and we do poke at each other and judge each other. But ultimately the like, the value that we get from being this tight knit is like, not something you wouldn't trade in a million years. For sure.

[Nikita Pakshani]

For sure. And poking at each other is so true because there's another like one of these lines that I caught where she's. Archie Panjabi is walking in her like, red, you know, bridal outfit and one of the girls in the background was like, she looks like a bloody jar of ragu in it. It's like, wow, it's like so mean. It's like her wedding day. But it's like, that's the thing. It's like the kind of like that community noise, right? It kind of coexists, like. Yeah, there's like a lot that's wrong with it, but there's also like, stuff that's nice with it.

[Caroline]

Right?

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's. It's complicated.

[Caroline]

It's very complicated. Yeah. Like, I think. I think the word community in general has become this weird like, enshrined word that like, it's like brands. It's like what? It's like a brand. Yeah, exactly. And it's like the people just sort of like, oh, you know, the local community kind of thing. Like. What are you talking about? Do you mean your friends or do you mean the lady who works in the library? I don't understand what you're saying. What do you mean when you say community to me?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And we're sort of vaguely aware that, like, community is good and we should have it, but we don't have enough because of the phones and all this stuff. And so there is a temptation, I think, to represent the idea of community as this monolithic thing where everyone helps each other do their homework and, like, gives each other money and stuff. No, it's like, it's not monolithic. It's a cool kind of. It's a complicated experience that, like, when we see this character experiencing every pro and con of existing in one, you know, 100%.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And I feel like, you know, community is like. I think people think of it, right, because of the way brands have co opted the word. And it is a good thing. Right. But ultimately it is about kind of like accepting people who are like, you don't. Like, you know.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, yes.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. And just kind of like dealing with them for the purpose, right, of like some kind of harmony, some kind of peace piece. Because I think we think, like, community is like, you know, people who buy into like, or people who are like you. Right. But it's like. No, it's. It's the opposite. It's about. It's like a decision that you make, Right. Where. Yeah, that's why, like, you know, it's. I think. Yeah, it's. I'm fascinated by this because I think, you know, Gurinder Chadha especially, like, at this time, does this so well where she shows that. And, and, you know, we, as. As Indian people, we know. Well, where I'm from in India at least, right. You know, I'm from India. I moved to the U.S. right. My family moved to the U.S. where we didn't know anybody. So it was like other people in the Indian community that kind of took us in that, like, you know, made sure we felt comfortable. So those communities exist, like, and it's good because we look out for each other, but could also be bad, right? Because there's the downside of it, which is it can get insular. You know, it can, you know, you can excuse all kinds of, like, behavior. Sometimes very sexist, patriarchal, I think. So her first movie, Grimdar, Chad's first movie, Budgie on the beach, is a bit more of like an issues film. And that really delves into, you know, the downside of the community and how it's kind of like community in that movie, which is also very funny, is used, right. As a way to kind of keep women in like, horrible marriages or.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

You know, because they're worried about what people will say.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you get that all the time. Where like self reporting and like going to the police or whatever or using any kind of. Sort of like sending any kind of flare up becomes a taboo because. Because drawing negative attention to any community becomes such a. It becomes worse than this in itself kind of thing. It's. It is like. Yeah, it's so interesting that you said that that like community means accepting people that you don't like. And like, I think about this all the time because like we were talking before we went on air about like how sort of puritanical reading culture can be sometimes. And like every, every reader, particularly the specific kind of online reader like the TikTok reviewer girlies or the Goodreads reviewer girlies or whatever. And they're not always girlies, but girlies in the heart. And how I'm so struck by like, how frequently people talk about. I love books about found family. Like, found family is a big buzzword in the reading community. Themes of found family, found family. It's like what we mean people. The found families that we like are the ones where it takes different people in order to get a job done. It's like why everyone loves a heist movie is because, like, none of these people have anything in common except that they have this goal in common. And, and you know, some of them are ignorant or arrogant or boring or stupid or smelly or whatever. Like, it, it's the kind of, the idea that it takes different kind of people to come together and get a job done that is so attractive. And yet we do still strive for a kind of a, A puritanism in both our literature and in our spaces. Like, I mean, you hear this all the time. It's like the cliche of like leftist spaces that like, people try and get like, like some kind of a community meetup going and then immediately there's problems over like someone not being, I don't know, Marist enough or whatever.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. It's, you know, it's. I think it's a huge, you know, just everything. There's so much dialogue right around this stuff going on today. People trying to protect like communities and seeing some people as a bad. There's so much division right under the name of like this. It's. Yeah, it's. It's in a way, like, that's why, you know, Benedict Beckham is such a, like, because I was, you know, this is technically. It's a post 911 film, right? And I think like a lot of these movies that came out around the Time. They were kind of sad. There was a kind of heaviness right in the air. And then in comes this film that's.

[Caroline]

Like, you know, so joyful, just music, color, girls hugging.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Optimism. Boobs. Yeah, exactly. Boobs, optimism, color. Like, it just. And I think that's. That's what's. So that's what I think. This is why this movie is powerful, right? Because it really just is, like. Yeah, like, there's a lot of problems, right? There's a lot of problems in, you know, with race and community and all of this stuff. But, like, ultimately, like, we can. We can just kind of make it work.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's hopeful. It's a very hopeful movie.

[Caroline]

It is one of my favorite bits of the movie and made me cry. And I've been holding off and talking about it because I was afraid I might cry on Mike. Where there's the bit. I mean, there's the running gag with Juliet Stevens's character that she's so panicked that her daughter Jules might be a lesbian. And at one point where she. And it's basically because she keeps overhearing conversations wrong or whatever, and she's talking to her husband, who is lovely, and I wish I saw him in more things, but he's lovely. She's talking to her husband, and she's in tears, and she's like, oh, you know, that Jess, you know, broke her heart and everything. And she says, you know, I just think about what they did to George Michael, putting all that personal. All of his personal business in the press. And it was awful. Then her husband says to her, oh, no, I'm getting emotional. Yeah, but George Michael is a star and used to listen to Wham.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's such a sweet scene, you know.

[Caroline]

Why does it make me cry?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Because it's like, you know, up till then, right? Like, that couple was seen as kind of like, oh, he supports the daughter, she doesn't. But it's like, oh, like there's a reason, right? This couple is together and like, eventually, like, he does. He's the one telling, like, helping her right. Understand, like, this is football. Like, it's a real, like, working relationship. And it's. It's really, really sweet. I just love it. I love their dynamic.

[Caroline]

And there's something just so, so touching and beautiful about, like, parents who kind of. Again, they know. They know their child will enter rooms they never got to. And they know that in order to. For that to happen, they have to let go of them a bit. And letting go of them a bit means that they have to, as much as they can, let go of their fears for their child as well, or at the very least, keep those fears to themselves so it doesn't hamper their child. Child. And the idea that, like, I don't know, you would, like, think your child is so extraordinary that you would think they were on the level of George Michael. You know what I mean? Like, you're afraid for them. Like, you're afraid for George Michael, but you also think they're part of George Michael.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Totally. Yeah. It's so funny. You know, there's like a. There's just wonderful scenes of, like, just, like, parenting parents, like, just supporting each other right through, like, a thing. Like, you know, there's a part where they're sitting in Jess's room where they're kind of. Of like, what haven't we done for these girls? She wanted a TV set, we bought it for her. Like, so with them, it's like. But it's just. It's so adorable. It's so sweet, right? Just to see, like, you know, parents, these couples, like, rely on each other to just kind of work through, like, you know, issues.

[Caroline]

They truly love these girls, and that is never in doubt, you know. It's just so nice. Oh, and can I tell my. This is actually, like, a surprisingly long movie. I remember, like, pausing it a few times, being like, there's an hour left. Yeah, yeah. One of my favorite, like, montages in the film. And again, it's like back to sort of my. My sort of renewed love of British film at the moment. It's like the. The most, like, grim little montage, but it's so joyfully played of, like, Jess and Jules taking the tube to Oxford Street. Note depicted a circle is they come off the Tube, they go to Carnaby street, they buy a pair of football boots, they go to the Three Greyhounds Pub on Old Compton street, they have a pint, they get back on the tube. And that's like the whole montage of their day in London. That's, like, the peak of her happiness. It's very sweet.

[Nikita Pakshani]

You know, they're. They're, you know, capri pants, you know, just kind of like. Yeah. Going to the pub. It's adorable.

[Caroline]

It's like when you think of all the kind of London montages of, like, oh, my God, like, look at the. All these places. Buckingham palace, look.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And it is like, also this. Back to the music. Like, I think the song that was playing was Independence Day by Sporty sp by. Yeah. The one who doesn't have A fell.

[Caroline]

God love her. Poor Mel gets in the neck, doesn't she? Hope she's all right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I mean, she gets to sing that amazing song where. That they're dancing to at the club, right?

[Caroline]

Oh yeah, great. I love the club. I know we talked about it already, but I just. It has such. It just really captures the energy of just being away for the first time with your friends at 18. Yeah, it's just short bit of the movie, but it's like something about. It just captures up a whole kind of transition of life of like that first time you get in the plane without your parents, you know, for sure.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And also like the part where, you know, Jess doesn't have like clothes for clubbing. And who do they call?

[Caroline]

Mel.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Mel Chasney Lewis with the, you know, fabulous. You know, she's always got a tampon. She's always got this.

[Caroline]

The painters are in. The painters and decorators are in.

[Nikita Pakshani]

The painters and decorators are in. And look, she decorated Jess, she was like, yeah, no problem. Of course she has an extra pair of clothes going out. Clothes, you know.

[Caroline]

Girls, girl, girls, girl. Think enterprise software is too costly, too complex and takes too long to get up and run Running? Think again. Workday Go makes simplifying your small or mid sized business simple. HR and finance together on one powerful AI platform right at your fingertips. Workday Go gets you live fast and fits the needs of your business. Find out what Workday Go can do for you.

[Advertiser]

Go With Workday Go AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents may make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI [e-mail]. that's R U B R-I K.com.

[Caroline]

So you are an astrologer in training. In training.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I just, I always. Yes, I am, I am. I'm always like, what if I'm not good enough?

[Caroline]

I think you are. I mean, we had a big long conversation about it before you got in here. And I am a real skeptic when it comes to the stuff. And you really converted me because you said like one thing about me and my husband. So I'm like, wow, let me, you know, take my money. But we know from this film that Jess is a Pisces. How do you think she stacks up as a Pisces in this movie?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Very well. Because Pisces, the Number one thing is that they kind of get really lost in their daydreams. And she's got so many kind of like, you know, dream montages.

[Caroline]

Oh my God, of course.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes. And you know what's funny is like, I don't know Gurindar Chala's sign, but I think she might be a Pisces because in her previous movie, Budgie on the beach, that character, one of the main characters is also a Pisces. And someone says, like, you're a Pisces because you daydream a lot. Wow.

[Caroline]

There's some more in the chat. Pisces.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. I don't know, actually, I didn't double check, but I'm like, there's some kind of Pisces action going on. There's like a thread of the Pisces. But yeah, I would say she stacks up as a Pisces. It's hard to. I would say. Yeah, for me, like, that's the kind of like telltale, telltale sign. Yeah, she's definitely the dreaming. Yes. That's why I would say the Pisces. And then what else? I think she was also like, quiet. She, you know, she kind of is.

[Caroline]

She's.

[Nikita Pakshani]

She's compassionate. Right. I think that's another thing with Pisces. A very like, empathetic, very compassionate. You know, that's what it says in theory. It's always more complicated than that. Dark side, shadow side, everything.

[Caroline]

We don't know what time of day she was born.

[Nikita Pakshani]

So hard to get her. What's her moon side, you know, all of that makes a difference. But. But yeah, like, I think ultimately, right, she is. Even even though she's like very frustrated by the way her parents block her, like she does a little bit still kind of like understand where they're coming from.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Nikita Pakshani]

You know, so. So yeah, I think she does kind of see like all sides. And then there's also. Oh, gosh, I feel like I don't want the Pisces of the world to hate me. I do. I love, I love the side of. I love all sides. But you know, there's a part where like she and Jonathan Myers like almost kiss and then just says, you act so innocent, you know? And I think that sometimes, like Pisces, like, they're very good hearted, right? But that kind of shadow side is like, sometimes they don't realize, right? When, when they're like kind of acting in a way that could potentially like hurt somebody, but then they're like, I didn't mean it. It's not My fault. I don't know what I'm doing. And maybe she didn't, you know, like.

[Caroline]

But.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And yeah, these things happen, right. And she didn't know that Jules liked her.

[Caroline]

And Jill, she doesn't even snag him. We just basically have a bit of a moment that also Jul. Just being like you. It is like such like. It's like you should have given Kira another take on that one. You.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Well, at least she had that gray top on.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Know she have no problem.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Corset Queen.

[Caroline]

Corset Queen, yeah. Nikita, you have a book out called Ghost Jelly. Could you tell us a little bit more about it?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yeah. So Ghost Chile is about a girl. A woman girl. Not. Not yet a woman. Not a girl. Not yet a woman living in New York who. Who kind of takes a lot of pride and being the funny one, you know, always a good time. But then, you know, life happens. She kind of just can't keep up the facade anymore because she's losing friends. You know, she can't keep. She can't date anyone. She's very lonely. And then. Yeah, yeah. Just kind of events transpire in her life that force her to really confront the. Her ptsd. So it is a book about complex ptsd. But how it, like, it's not. When you hear the word, it's like PTSD is like such a wet blanket. You say that word and it's like immediately like, no, thanks. Yeah. But like, it's actually. It can take so many different forms.

[Caroline]

Right?

[Nikita Pakshani]

And it's a book about like, it is a. It's a comic novel. Right? But it's about how like, you know, the life kind of forms right around it and then getting the diagnosis. But how like getting a diagnosis of that, especially in today's like therapy culture where everyone has all the words right? For everything is really not the same as like actually like living those things. And it really is a. You know, I've.

[Caroline]

It's.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Now I've thought about this book so much and how I'm going to talk about it, and I think it is a book. Book about like loving your family, you know, and kind of going back and just seeing people, like like acknowledging people's flaws, right? And kind of making the decision like that like you just going to love. Love them anyways because like, yeah, like kind of just having.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Like knowing the answers to everything as we do in our culture today is just not the same as like feeling and. And true acceptance. Acceptance. So, yeah, that's like the book in a nutshell.

[Caroline]

I Love that so much. Yeah, I. I feel like, God, what an amazing topic to hit on. It's such a. That's a real fascination for me as well. That idea that you can sort of, like, intellectually know something or even sort of noodle around something with your thoughts as a kind of a thought experiment. I think I heard you on a podcast recently say, like, you know, we all kind of sit around with our friends and be like, oh, yeah, I think that's because of your trauma from your father. And, like, we don't know. We're just sort of like. But we found this kind of, like, communal language for talking about our emotions. That. Because talking about your emotions in public is kind of a new phenomenon. Like, on that. On the level we talk about them now, the way we will just talk about, you know, trauma or. Or childhood stuff or stuff that was a generation previously considered really quite private. We're almost quite new to having a public emotional language. And so we sort of of as millennials, I think, sometimes. Are you millennials?

[Nikita Pakshani]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Okay. I don't know how you define yourself. Like, we almost act like we're the kind of the first colonizers of the heart and mind a bit. We're like. This is called compersion. We call it conversion or whatever. This is called empathy dumping. This is called. It's like we're, like, sticking our flags in different parts of the human brain.

[Nikita Pakshani]

True.

[Caroline]

And I think it's fascinating. I. I'm. I. I can't wait to read it.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I'm.

[Caroline]

I'm so excited. Thank you so much. I've loved hanging out with you today. This has been the best.

[Nikita Pakshani]

It's been so much fun. I'm like. I felt like we just love. We love this movie for the same reasons, you know? Yeah. Thank you for having me.

[Caroline]

Please come back and please talk about astrology when you come back.

[Nikita Pakshani]

I have so much more to say. I was going to say I have a whole thing with millennials. What you were saying. Neptune and Pisces, Pluto and Scorpio, or like, a very emotional. I mean, if you look at the astrology, very emotional. Like, we're very emotionally articulate.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

But we kind of just don't know what to do with it.

[Caroline]

We don't know what to do with it. I have to say, you are the first person I've met to talk about astrology in a way where I want you to talk way more about it. So, like, I think you have a huge future as astrology.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Thank you so much. Yeah, it is. I'M in the books, you know, because, you know, for me, astrology is just. I just see it as language, you know? And a lot of the teachers that I've learned from, they're more like. They're very academic. They're readers.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Nikita Pakshani]

And so the way they kind of have taught astrology to me is like interpreting a novel. You know, like, every person's chart is just like a map of their lives. Right. And treating it like a language, a book. I just think it's a very. If you look at it in a narrative way, it's very powerful.

[Caroline]

I love that. Okay, we gotta go, but thank you again. And that book is ghost. Chilling.

[Nikita Pakshani]

Thanks, Caroline.

[Advertiser]

AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed. But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails, and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation at rubrik.com that's R U B-R-I-K.com.