Continental Garbage: Fyre Festival

Summary

Episode Summary: Sentimental Garbage – “Continental Garbage: Fyre Festival”

Release Date: August 15, 2024

Host: Caroline O'Donoghue (Caroline) and Jen Cowney (Jen)

---

1. Introduction to Continental Garbage

The episode opens with Caroline clarifying the distinction between "Sentimental Garbage" and "Continental Garbage." While "Sentimental Garbage" delves into the culture we love yet sometimes feel ashamed of, "Continental Garbage" integrates elements of a postcard and a film club, inviting listeners to either read a personal note or jump directly into film discussions.

Jen:
"Continental Garbage is ever so slightly different to sentimental garbage in that it's sort of part postcard and part film club." [00:29]

2. The Allure and Reality of Festivals

Caroline and Jen embark on a humorous yet critical discussion about the romanticized idea of attending exclusive, bougie festivals versus the gritty reality exemplified by the infamous Fyre Festival. They draw parallels between their experiences at the Wilderness Festival and the catastrophic organization of Fyre Festival.

Caroline:
"Am I gonna find this film very triggering?" [03:27]

Jen:
"All of advertising is a little bit like Fyre Festival." [03:21]

3. Analyzing Fyre Festival

The core of the episode revolves around their detailed analysis of the Fyre Festival documentary. They express shock and heartbreak over the festival's failure, emphasizing how it was a "triumph of advertising and a failure of absolutely everything else."

Jen:
"It was a triumph of advertising and a failure of absolutely everything else." [03:34]

Caroline:
"And famously, you cannot advertise your way out of a bad product." [03:37]

They discuss the misleading marketing strategies that promised luxury and exclusivity but delivered disdainfully inadequate accommodations, such as hurricane tents and cheese sandwiches. The hosts critique the influencer culture that perpetuated the festival’s false image, leading to legal repercussions and a shift in how influencer endorsements are regulated.

Jen:
"When I suggested this Fyre Festival to you, I thought it just felt like it made sense because we were at Wilderness Festival at the weekend and, like, Wilderness Fest has developed a real name in the sort of British cultural sort of press as being, like, the bougiest festival in England." [03:43]

4. The Dark Side of Influencer Marketing

Caroline and Jen delve into the ethical pitfalls of influencer marketing, using Fyre Festival as a case study. They highlight how influencers misrepresented experiences for sponsorships, leading to widespread deceit and loss for attendees and organizers alike.

Caroline:
"I have to recommend strategies as a job. But yeah, on a real. Just on a really basic level, the idea of being paid to do shit, all except take a photo of yourself standing by a thing, like, it's an amazing grift." [28:29]

Jen:
"It's the best grift there is." [28:54]

5. Personal Reflections and Lessons Learned

The hosts reflect on their personal experiences and how the Fyre Festival documentary served as a mirror to their own lives and professional environments. They discuss traits like trust, cynicism, and accountability, revealing insights into their personalities and approaches to work and relationships.

Jen:
"We've revealed more about ourselves. Our personalities." [94:16]

Caroline:
"I have an innate and deep-seated distrust of authority." [91:50]

6. The Impact on Future Festivals and Marketing

Caroline and Jen speculate on the future of festival culture and influencer marketing in the wake of Fyre Festival’s debacle. They ponder whether festivals will regress to more authentic, less commercialized events or continue spiraling into overpriced, influencer-driven spectacles.

Jen:
"The further and, like, the more that festival set the standard for themselves to be higher and higher and it becomes more and more untenable because ultimately these are like luxury products happening in rural settings." [49:31]

Caroline:
"I think festivals are gonna be okay. I think they might go back around. I think, you know, us true pioneers. We'll keep the old ways." [52:30]

7. Conclusion: A Cautionary Tale

The episode concludes with a reinforced understanding of the complexities and dangers of unregulated marketing and the influencer-driven economy. Caroline and Jen emphasize the importance of accountability and ethical practices in event planning and brand endorsements to prevent future fiascos reminiscent of Fyre Festival.

Caroline:
"They had all the yes guys there. All the yes men were there en masse. They needed a few absolute knowers who were just saying, yeah, and there's a bit." [41:56]

Jen:
"The real victims are the people of the island, many of whom worked for a month unpaid." [81:43]

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jen:
  "I think that level of influencer for definitely for our generation. Maybe Gen Z and Gen A are like having their own moment with them." [29:32]

• Caroline:
  "When you solve problems for people who are incompetent, by solving problems, we were enabling them to continue creating this monster." [43:40]

• Jen:
  "A lot of my job is someone going, I've got this amazing idea and me going, that's lovely. I'm not sure that magic exists." [73:56]

• Caroline:
  "And festivals will be fine. I think they might go back around." [52:30]

---

Key Takeaways

1. Influencer Marketing Risks: The Fyre Festival exemplifies the perils of over-relying on influencer endorsements without substantive product backing, leading to legal and reputational damage.

2. Ethical Accountability: There is a pressing need for transparency and accountability in marketing strategies to prevent fraudulent ventures and protect consumers.

3. Festival Culture Evolution: The shift towards more commercialized and influencer-centric festivals may lead to unsustainable models, potentially causing a regression to more authentic and less profit-driven events.

4. Personal Growth and Awareness: Engaging with stories like the Fyre Festival documentary fosters self-awareness and critical thinking about one’s trust levels, ethical standards, and professional practices.

5. Community Impact: Beyond attendees, the fallout of failed events profoundly affects local communities and workers, highlighting the broader social responsibilities of event organizers.

---

This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of the Fyre Festival's downfall, intertwining personal anecdotes with critical analysis to deliver insightful commentary on modern marketing and festival culture. Caroline and Jen's candid conversations provide listeners with both entertainment and valuable lessons on navigating the complexities of trust and ethics in today's influencer-driven landscape.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hello there. This is just a reminder that Continental Garbage is ever so slightly different to sentimental garbage in that it's sort of part postcard and part film club. So if you want to sit down and read the postcard, you can start listening from now. But if you'd prefer to just skip to the film discussion, you can look at the timestamp in the episode notes and skip straight to there. Okay, enjoy. Hello and welcome to Continental Garbage, the podcast where we will not be trading blowjobs for water, but somebody will. My name is Caroline and have you ever dreamed of swimming with pigs on a private island? Joining me is Ja Rule's financial advisor. It's Jen Cowney.

[A]

I've actually definitely dreamed of swimming with pigs on a tropical island.

[B]

You know what? I've heard it's quite overrated as an activity because the thing about baby pigs is that they shit constantly and so you're swimming with them in the islands.

[A]

Oh, I see.

[B]

And they're just shitting in the water and there's shit everywhere. Okay.

[A]

No, you're right. I had. I mean, I have seen pigs in my life and I do know they are like that. Although I also have a lovely pig story.

[B]

Go on.

[A]

I have a lovely friend called Jenny and she runs this thing. Have I taken. No. Taking you to it.

[B]

I haven't heard of this friend called Jenny.

[A]

Well, she's great. And I went for a drink with her this week and she runs this thing called Wildlife drawing, which is like life drawing except rather than nudes, it's animals. So you can go and like draw some owls or a parrot or like a sugar glider or tiny piggies.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[A]

And she also does like corporate ones. So one day in my office at random there was an email saying like, there's going to be some life drawing of pigs in this office because I work in advertising and that's a normal thing.

[B]

That's a normal thing.

[A]

So, yeah, loads of my colleagues just went and brushed little piggies at work and drew pictures of them. So I think that's my main association with piggies. I didn't think that. You're right. Sweet. I Imagine there was a big, like, plastic sheet down when this brushing in my office was going on.

[B]

Yeah. Was there a lot of pooing?

[A]

I actually couldn't make it up to that one.

[B]

I went to the pig office. Brought baby pigs into your. Into your advertising agency.

[A]

Well, Jenny brought them in because she does wildlife drawing and then my office, presumably.

[B]

No, she's. The thing is, I understand she did that. All the steps. I understand all the steps. And I love this hand of Jenny, even though not a fan of you having private friends who haven't been cleared by me. But, like, it's like, I understand every step in wildlife of. It's good. But the full picture at the end is very Dave Eggers. The Circle.

[A]

I mean, that's advertising, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're like. They give you pizza and then they're like, oh, we've put a little burger shop up in the office today. And then they're like, no pay rises for anyone.

[B]

No pay rises for anybody. But there are pigs.

[A]

So. Yeah. So I'm imagining already that Swimming With Pigs is not, like, being my workplace. Although in some ways it might be, because it's all of advertising. A little bit like Fyre Festival.

[B]

All of advertising is a little bit like Fyre Festival. Yeah.

[A]

Am I gonna find this film very triggering?

[B]

So what do you know about Fyre Festival?

[A]

Very little.

[B]

Well, I thought it was.

[A]

I don't know what it was. It was a triumph of advertising.

[B]

It was a triumph of advertising and a failure of absolutely everything else.

[A]

Yes. And famously, you cannot advertise your way out of a bad product. It's a thing that I've had to say on a number of occasions.

[B]

Yeah. When I suggested this Fyre Festival to you, I thought it just felt like it made sense because we were at Wilderness Festival at the weekend and, like, Wilderness Fest has developed a real name in the sort of British cultural sort of press as being, like, the bougiest festival in England.

[A]

It is, I reckon, the Bougies Festival in England.

[B]

Yeah. But to be honest, like, I don't know whether, like. Are we splitting hairs there? Haven't they all become pretty fucking bougie? Unless you're talking about, like, V Festival or something, which is just for, like, teens.

[A]

I mean, they definitely have become more bougie. And certainly when I say I'm going to a festival to anyone whose only experience is, like, Reading.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the years of sort of the early 2000s, which is when I used to go to the Reading Festival, where it's like, you can buy chips, you can Buy cheese. And on the last night, you have to sleep half in, half out of your tent to make sure no one sets you on fire. Like, that's not even. That's not some urban legend. Like, that's truly what you would do. You'd be like, there are people here. No big vroom voom for you.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Everyone who's been to Wedding knows that. But then the fact that's fucked. It is fucked. And then you'd leave.

[B]

People talk about Notting Hill Carnival as being like a kind of a. Oh, it's a dangerous thing. It's like. No, that's racism talking. Every festival, every gathering of people around music, drugs and drinking is inherently dangerous. It's just how we package it.

[A]

Exactly. And the Reading Festival was people being really drunk and then setting tents on fire.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And then just leaving seas of rubbish. Obviously, that's not the kind of festival that you and I go to, but I do go to what I would, a solid collection of the more bougie ones on account of being a performing tarot reader and workshopper. And I would say wilderness is the bougiest because it's the only one with a Verve cliqueau tent and also a swimming lake and also a morning run club.

[B]

A morning run club.

[A]

You know, you're not in Kansas anymore when you're doing a morning run club at a festival.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I find it really fascinating because, like, I was never at Reading Festival on account of not growing up in this country, but I was certainly used to go to Oxygen and Electric Picnic in Ireland, which are the two big festivals when I was growing up. And like, same vibes. It's like, you know, carrying around a bag of lukewarm cans. You know, there were no showers, no shower. Oh, my God. The idea. I remember, like, being, you know, probably 22, 23 at maybe hop Farm Festival in Kent, and there was like, heard tale, kind of like whispers on the wind that there were showers. People went in them and you might find them. And it might be because you were still up from the night before. It was five in the morning. And like, you might just, oh, wow, the queue is only 17 people long. Maybe I'll go for it now. And it was just like this weird myth. And now, like, I haven't been to a festival in years where I haven't showered every day.

[A]

Yeah, it's so easy to shower every day these days at festivals and to also have clothes that aren't just a nightgown you found in the Oxfam charity shop. That you've been wearing for three solid days with a silly hat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In some ways we've lost a lot of culture.

[B]

We've lost a lot, but we've gained a lot. And what I kept thinking about when I was at the festival this weekend was that like, we had the best time.

[A]

Oh, we had such a marvellous time.

[B]

We're saying bougie in a very far away. We're bougie.

[A]

We're bougie. I love being bougie.

[B]

I'm not going to pretend I'm not bougie. I am. I worked very hard to get this bougie.

[A]

I don't want to be back in the mosh pit at Reading in the year 2003. I don't want that at all. Don't make me.

[B]

No.

[A]

I want to be sitting on the ground drinking a nicely chilled wine whilst watching something beautiful.

[B]

Yeah. You and your organic skin contact orange wine.

[A]

I want my organic skin contact orange wine, which I could get at Wilderness. And a lovely, delicious, I don't know, vegetarian sushi roll.

[B]

Yeah. It was again, this was the refrain of the whole weekend was, I'm eating so well. Every two seconds one of us turned and I go, we're eating so well.

[A]

Honestly, like a rainbow diet.

[B]

Yeah. And then like. And then as it got later into the night, we go, ugh, my poos are fantastic.

[A]

Such a high fiber diet.

[B]

The whole life cycle of a high fiber diet was like, spoken about at length.

[A]

Just like, it was glorious.

[B]

I'm eating so well and then I'm pooing so well.

[A]

So well. But I guess if you are a person who, as I imagine the people who went to Fyre Festival were, expect a modern festival.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And from what I understand, they were going to be heartily disappointed. What little I know of the Fyre Festival advertising Triumph product failure.

[B]

There's something, I mean, we probably should like save all this festival chat.

[A]

We should, shouldn't we, really? We'd have a lovely time at Wilderness.

[B]

We had a lovely time at Wilderness. And more on that. More on that later, I guess. But what else you been up to? I came in the door to your house and we've both been for haircuts today, which I find very sweet.

[A]

Paradine looks amazing.

[B]

It's the best haircut I've ever had.

[A]

It's a really good haircut. Yeah, it's really good. I was like, wow, what's happened here? Mine's fine. I had a fringe trim, which is just a thing that one has to do. One has a Fringe, you wouldn't know. Me and Taylor Swift do know it's very boring and, you know, it's fine. But when I came home, I washed my hair and I went to the gym. Washed my hair.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Trimmed my fringe and came back. And I've got. Actually, I do have very similar hair texture to our dear friend Taylor Swift, which is like, it's kind of wavy, but it's also kind of flyaway and like, any humidity is going to fuck it up. And I looked at it and I was like, ah, it's gone a bit fuzzy. It's quite nice and soft and clean. Got a bit fuzzy. I'll just put some like of that, like, wave holding spray on it and that'll sort it out. And I was spraying my hair liberally with wave holding spray, and I was like, God, this wave holding spray does not have the usual texture and scent that I expect it to. And that's when I realized I just spra a lot of SPF 50. Into what? Into my hair.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Like a lot of SPF 50.

[B]

No.

[A]

And my SPF 50, which is great.

[B]

That's why your hair is doing that.

[A]

Contains yogurt as well. So, yeah, I looked at it and I was like, oh, no. Oh, no. This is about 10 minutes before you got here. I checked your location and I was like, I don't have time to wash all of my hair. I've got loads of hair. And so I thought what I'd probably do before it went crunchy, which is gonna happen, is I would try and do the thing that the people on the Internet do with heatless curls. So I turned it into a sort of head croissant.

[B]

Is that what you're doing?

[A]

Because it's clearly gonna become solid. And I was like, well, I need to make it solid in a shape that's not.

[B]

Ah, yeah. Cause we're going out after this. We're going out after this.

[A]

We're going out straight after this. And so this is. Basically, I'm gonna take my yoghurt hair out of this croissant roll and we're gonna hope that it doesn't just snap because it's full of spf.

[B]

Okay. Wow.

[A]

I guess it won't burn.

[B]

Do you know what? I actually quite like the croissant roll as a look. And we could do the rest of you as like in like this kind of wartime blitz spirit. Like, let's do a red lip and some Bisto on your legs or whatever the fuck they used to do.

[A]

I think I will take it down. In theory. When I take it down, I don't know, because I've never bothered doing heatless curls. In theory, if the Internet's to be believed, and I suspect it isn't, because I suspect that's another triumph of advertising. It will be N waves and absolutely solid. Because of all the yogurt. Your face is disgusted.

[B]

So we're going out. Out. We're going for dinner and then we're going dancing and you're going to have SPF yogurt all over your head.

[A]

Like the 50 SPF yogurt in mine.

[B]

We're actually. We're going to Swift to get in tonight as well. So, like, we're gonna. If there's one place where, like, people are gonna walk up to you and, like, be like, oh, wow, love your work. It's here.

[A]

Yep. Yeah, it's gonna be good. So that's phenomenal. Okay, well, listen, if you see me, if you saw me, because it'd be past tense now at Swift. And you thought, what the fuck is wrong with that woman's hair now, you know, full of yogurt. Yogurt and spf. And because it's my own stupid font.

[B]

It'S gonna, like, hold like a 19 fort. Like, your people are gonna be like, oh, I met Jen County. She was really nice. I didn't realize she was one of those vintage dressy ladies. Rockabilly bride with a victory roll in her hair.

[A]

I didn't realize her hair would be so crackly when you touched it. Like, why?

[B]

You're just gonna be thinking about it all night.

[A]

I am. Yeah. And the story you're singing the bridge.

[B]

To Cruel Summer and only thinking about your hair. I feel really bad for you about that.

[A]

Thank you. I'm glad. Because that's the main thing that's happened to me this week, is I put this in my hair. And also, I went to work a lot.

[B]

Yeah. Well, on the subject of terrible maintenance of the self, I finally got my Invisalign retainers fitted.

[A]

You did.

[B]

And it is the worst thing in the whole world. It is the worst thing in the whole world.

[A]

Yeah. I feel like Invisalign is like a reverse pyramid scheme, because every time anyone I know says, I'm thinking of getting Invisalign, I say, don't do it, because I did it years ago.

[B]

But you've got perfect teeth. They're all completely straightened in line.

[A]

Yeah, they're more or less there. I don't do my upkeep, so they're going a bit funny. But, yeah, they're there. And I say to everyone, just get train tracks. It's quicker. It doesn't hurt as much. And everyone gets Invisalign. And then everyone says, it really fucking hurts. And also, it's not invisible.

[B]

I mean, it's not noticeable.

[A]

No, it's not. It's not noticeable.

[B]

So I didn't realize that. Like, that. Yeah. So I. I had them for the first few weeks because my orthodontist said everyone gives up on Invisalign because they hate the little glue sort of buttons that they put on your teeth. So I'm gonna start you off with just the retainers, and then you're gonna get used to those, and then we're gonna build up to the glue buttons. And I didn't realize. Well, then she said, buttons.

[A]

Yeah, I thought.

[B]

I thought just, like, little tabs or whatever. Little. Maybe little pressure points, which I guess is what they are, but they are fully fucking fangs.

[A]

It's like extra teeth in your mouth.

[B]

They are extra teeth in your mouth, and it's so painful. Every time you, like, take them out is a fucking ordeal. I'm in misery.

[A]

It's gonna be okay. You're gonna buy the little igloo stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The igloo stuff. So what am I doing with that? Because I'm sure other people are going through an Invisalign journey.

[A]

I assume they still make it. But back when I had my Invisalign journey many years ago, it was like a kind of mouth ulcer treatment, like Bongella, but you put it on the part of your mouth that was sore, and it would numb it, but it would also create this little kind of fun little barrier out of, like, what felt like wax, so nothing could rub on it more.

[B]

Okay. We're stopping by Boots on the way out.

[A]

We're stopping by Boots on the way out so we can try and find some igloo for you or whatever it's now called. But it was great.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I literally just didn't leave the house without that in my bag for seven months.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But now my teeth are straight.

[B]

They look great, and I want to have teeth this straight because I just.

[A]

You're gonna. Yeah, it's gonna be great. Gonna be fun. You're gonna have to bite apples, and, like, everything will meet in the right place. It's magical. Okay, so you've had that. I've got. So you've got your mouth pain. Yeah, I've got my.

[B]

We're in shift form, to be honest. Today, aren't We. You've got manky hair, I've got manky mouth. Shift form.

[A]

Great. Well, ironically, your hair's great and my teeth are very straight.

[B]

Together, we're one attractive woman together.

[A]

Just stick us in. Frankenstein us into one and everything's working. No one's got yogurt or buttons. You've also done a great thing this week, which I think you should mark.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

A very important thing.

[B]

That's true. Actually, do you know what? Last time we did an episode, because we had a farrow week, when I am a fallow week, rather. But when we were on the Eras one we spoke about. Well, I spoke about, I got quite emotional and actually I had lots of lovely messages from. From the Parish, basically saying that, like, I just felt really crazy because I've been, like, working for the last couple of months on the final kind of pass on this book that I'm working on, and then I finally submitted it last night, and it felt like it's so crazy because I've just been feeling, like. The feeling. I would describe it as like, just total madness, but madness as, like, imagine a wild, rabid dog on the horizon that's running towards you. And the closer it gets to being finished, the closer the rabid dog gets. I just feel like I'm getting madder and madder and madder and just. I'm scared of the dog. The dog's gonna bite me. The dog's gonna kill me. Submitting it is like the dog just ran past you and he's, like, gone in the other direction. And he's like, bye, dog. Bye, big dog.

[A]

I haven't had that feeling lately, but I know that feeling. Just like the relief.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The mounting and all the tension just suddenly evaporates and you're like, wonderful.

[B]

Yeah, I'm free.

[A]

I've never been freer in my whole life.

[B]

I've never felt free in my whole life.

[A]

I've had a lovely day in your whole life.

[B]

And, like, yesterday, Gavin was out on a friend date, which I find very cute.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He was on a friend. So I had no one to celebrate with, so I celebrated by opening some whiskey.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Putting up a playlist, building a karaoke playlist of all the most emotional folklore and Evermore bangers.

[A]

She's now an Evermore stand.

[B]

She's. That's another thing that's changed in the last week for me. I've become a massive Evermore Stan.

[A]

You persisted and it paid off.

[B]

I persisted, it paid off. And so I just put all my favorite songs From Folklore and Evermore Together. Built a playlist on YouTube. I have a karaoke machine at home.

[A]

It's fantastic.

[B]

And sang karaoke and drank whiskey by myself until my voice gave out. And then I watched the Long Pond Sessions.

[A]

What you also did, which I really appreciated was the kind of the marginalia of continental garbage where you voice noted me. Basically fan fiction.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. About truly like the.

[A]

And I mean, not in a kind of like, I was just receiving it. I was fully participating.

[B]

Oh, yeah, there's a whole.

[A]

We've built a whole imaginary world there and one day we'll tell you about it.

[B]

No, I messaged you and I was like. I was like, do you think when. Because I was thinking about how all of Taylor's ex boyfriends have been. Have never spoken to the media. I was like, oh, they're definitely been given a partying gift. Like, I was like imagining that, like, you know, former stockbroker Papa Swift, big Papa Swift, like, that he has an office where like the boyfriends are called in at the end of their tenure. And like, he gives them a really, like, he stands up and gives them a really respectful handshake. He slips a check for a cool.

[A]

Meal into their top pocket minimum.

[B]

And then. And then he puts his big hand on top of Joe Alwyn's small hand and says, well, Joe, been great having you around. Been really. And then. And then you immediately, within a minute came back and you were like, yes. And I bet the office has been rebuilt and redesigned by Taylor Swift of his original 80s stockbroker office. And that she's like recreated it from photographs and she gifted it to him. She gifted him a whole 80s office.

[A]

I believe it so strongly, it feels so true that it's now canon in my mind that she has done this, that she has built her dad his 80s stockbroker office.

[B]

Yeah. And that's where he dispatches the boyfriends.

[A]

And that's his one big job. Because now she's actually the kind of daddy of the family.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

But that's his job is to get rid of the boyfriends.

[B]

And then weirdly, this was like at midnight. And you and I were just like. You could not get the voice notes fast, over and off. We were just like, as soon as the blue tick was on, there was like a new recording being recorded. We were saying, like, like, God, wouldn't it be so stressful if Taylor built you a home office?

[A]

You would be like, the way she'd be there pathologically. People pleasing, being like, do you like it, though? Is it good enough to get the color right? Was that the exact right details? I wasn't sure about the coat of arms. Is that the right coat of arms for you? You'd be like, oh, my God, calm down.

[B]

Yeah. And just, like, showing you all the vintage desk toys that she sourced from Etsy.

[A]

It'd be very sweet, but it'd be a lot.

[B]

I know. And that's how we both realized that neither one of us love languages is gift giving, and the delivery was the door. So now we have to go. See you in a minute.

[A]

We have to go. See you in a minute.

[B]

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Visit go.acast.com ads to get started today. Well, we're back from the Bahamas. We have our weekly Oaxaca. We watch the Fyre Festival. And you have many thoughts because you actually missed this when it first happened, didn't you?

[A]

Yeah, I've never seen this. This film. Like, I didn't miss that Fyre Festival happened, but whatever reason, you couldn't miss that. Yeah, I mean, I wasn't, like, living under a rock or something, but I didn't really engage with it Right. In a meaningful way. And this film, my God, like, the highs, the lows, like, I write a lot of notes when we're watching films because it's helpful for us to remember some of the things that we've said. And like, so many of my notes are just in large block capitals of just the sheer shock I felt, but also at times, genuinely, like, heartbreaking.

[B]

Heartbreaking and horrifying.

[A]

And horrifying.

[B]

I was really struck by it because obviously the incentive for doing the Fyre Festival this week is around us, having gone to the festival last week and, like, thinking about bougie ness and experiences and festivals and culture and when it goes right and when it goes wrong.

[A]

And that's travel.

[B]

And that's travel. Exactly.

[A]

Festival is a country that we all like to visit. It is lovely this time of year.

[B]

But honestly, I was kind of slightly worried when we put it on. I was like, oh, is this gonna just feel like us revisiting a 2017 news story for no real reason? And then watching the documentary, which came out in 2019, but I think got a lot of, like, pickup and discussion. I really remember it as being an early pandemic thing.

[A]

Yeah. I can well imagine that this would be a delicious hate watch. It was delicious.

[B]

But what was like, what was actually most striking. Watching it again, I was like, oh, this is an evergreen story. This is not one of those stories that feels very particular to the time or place. It feels like. Like a myth that is, like, worthy of the ancients.

[A]

This is an archetype.

[B]

Yeah, an archetype. And the documentary is so well made and it's so suspenseful and you don't think things get any worse. And then they do.

[A]

It feels like a horror film.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From the opening scenes, you. You like, you can feel the creeping unease.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then it just. It takes you in places you never think it will go. There's elements of the whodunit in it. There's elements just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's genuinely a masterful, masterful documentary.

[B]

And before we get into the sort of meat and potatoes of it, I kind of want to talk about the. The phenomenon of the Netflix documentary, which is like, I feel like this was at a moment where it was like them having their quite specific style of documentary, which is they take a kind of quite Internet y story and they get a bunch of people sitting down in locations that are not their homes. And like, me and my brother have this game we play where we. We pretend that we're in a Netflix documentary.

[A]

And what are you talking about in your Netflix documentary, Carol?

[B]

We never talk about specifically. And he'll just, like, sit down in the chair next to me. He'll be like, so you want to know what happened? And in 2013, that's when the money got out of control. We were in Vegas. It's like an improv game we play when we're a little bit stoned and pretending we're in an FX documentary. Because it's really fun.

[A]

I want to play the game so badly.

[B]

It's a real, like. It's a real. Yes. And game because you have to keep building the story and being like, and then Miami happened. And then cut away to. Miami is a city in America. But it has become. I mean, the reason it's a fun game to play is because everyone has seen a billion Netflix documentaries about, like, a quasi Online.

[A]

I've only seen like, two. This is one of them.

[B]

Yeah. Quasi Online. Sort of like stories about sort of moguls or cult leaders or digital first stories.

[A]

Thousand children and Stuff.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Many of them are bad and certainly they are being churned out at a rate of knots, but this one is truly fantastic.

[A]

Oh, it's magnificent.

[B]

It's.

[A]

I just, I was on the edge of my seat, literally, I was just perched there going, going, making squeakier and squeakier noises.

[B]

And we just kept holding each other at various points and looking each other and going, I hate men.

[A]

And then shortly after we upgraded to I hate American men who might be.

[B]

The worst flavor, the worst white American men.

[A]

It doesn't. It doesn't. Yeah. Cast American men in a very good light. This, this documentary does.

[B]

Or America. Period.

[A]

Or America. Oh, man.

[B]

And I think the hating men of it all came really early for me super fast because so the documentary really front loads with blank. So we had this idea, we had an app and we threw a festival to promote the app, which immediately you started groaning.

[A]

I mean, listen, do I do festivals? As in, do I make them? No, my job is I'm a brand strategist and I know how much of a fucking faff it is to make a single advert, just a little 30 second commercial to advertise. You know, if you were doing an advert to advertise an app, you'd be like, that's a huge amount of budget, the production, the amount of expertise, the amount of time, the logistics needed. Like that is a lot. The idea that you would throw a festival to advertise an app is just, it's insane. It's so like, I genuinely think I looked at it at that point, it was like, where the hell was like their commercial? Where is the strategist here?

[B]

Who.

[A]

Because if someone came to me and none of my clients ever would, because they're not mental and went, we're thinking we're going to throw a festival to promote, you know, the TFL Go app, which I do work on. If TFL said we think we might.

[B]

Do a festival to promote tfl, you can get the train to a festival. Yeah.

[A]

We'd all be like, oh, honey, no. But obviously they'd never say that because they're a local government body who are not actually incompetent.

[B]

But like, I think when I first heard that, that sort of like gambit of like, we have this app that is to promote, that is basically to book talent that barely works. But that's, that's here nor there.

[A]

It's too performance marketing.

[B]

Yeah. But like the, the, that I sort of took that at face value and it was only watching it with you where I realized that's a nuts thing. Like brands sponsor festivals that already exist to lend the cultural credibility to the brand. And that makes sense.

[A]

A little pop up. A little pop up at an existing festival. Oh, you sponsored a stage. Well done. Oh, you've got a tent. That's nice.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your own festival. No, you're a tiny little app. And the hard on Instagram marketing and.

[B]

The idea that like, I think what's. I mean, this is obviously an old story, but what's still so like, blows me out of the water. The idea that like somebody would think of a festival only as a PR exercise. When anyone who's attended a festival for even seven hours can see what a many legged spider it is of like. Yeah, like portalous and food and drainage and sound and local councils and noise complaints and things like.

[A]

I mean, anyone who's ever thrown a big party or in your case, a wedding, understands that even with a relatively small amount of people clustered in one geographic location, the logistics are extreme.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, the logistics are extreme.

[A]

Like the total divorce from reality that you need in your mind to think a festival is a marketing stunt. Most festivals aren't even profitable as far as I'm aware. Most of them are actually losing money because they're really hard to turn a profit on.

[B]

Do you know what? Can I say something that's very fire festival wilderness. And I just want to say that if anybody is a festival and wants to invite me and I will come and that will be fantastic. And I love festivals. All, all shapes and sizes. Lovely. Love going to them. But I. We sprang for boutique camping and I wouldn't say it was a fire festival experience, but because we were like, we hate our tent. We knew we wanted to stay for a long time. We knew we wouldn't want to stay for a long time if we stayed in our tent that we hated. So we're like, you know what? We're at the festival for free. Let's do some really lovely boutique camping for the first time in our stupid lives. And then what we got was a bell tent with two single air mattresses and nothing else.

[A]

And I believe, because I was told about this by Gavin, that the actors were on different sides.

[B]

Yeah, it was a very, very chaste, very chaste weekend for us.

[A]

And yours was constantly deflating.

[B]

No, his was constantly deflated. I wouldn't let that happen to me. But, like. And then I ran into a couple of people who I sort of knew professionally and socially or whatever, who kind of, you know, on the influencer spectrum. The influencer isn't Their job, but they certainly have a bunch of followers or whatever and they're like, oh, I'm here for free. I'm not doing anything. I have a yurt. And I'm like, what? I was incandescent. I was like, I'm working at this festival. I'm doing an event. I have paid £550 for a bell tent with air mattresses and you are doing nothing and you have everything. How is that? I felt. So I think that's why when I decided that I wanted to do the Fyre Festival, to cleanse the spirit from me, because I was so angry.

[A]

I mean, again, as someone who both works in the industry of advertising, look, I cannot get on board with influencers as a concept. And I'll be so careful if I talk about this. Obviously, I literally have to recommend strategies as a job. But yeah, on a real. Just on a really basic level, the idea of being paid to do shit, all except take a photo of yourself standing by a thing, like, it's an amazing grift. It's phenomenal.

[B]

It's the best grift there is.

[A]

The best grift there is. And it can be remarkably effective, as we have seen in Fyre Festival. But on some just like, really, I don't know, kind of like ethical level.

[B]

Yeah, I hate it. Yeah.

[A]

I need them to do a thing. If I'm getting influences on anything that I do, I'm like, you're gonna be doing a thing and it's not just taking a picture and going along for fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not that I have that control, but also. But, but like, I just, I. I.

[B]

Can'T outside kind of like moral sickness of this.

[A]

Do you follow any influences? Any true influences?

[B]

Any true influences?

[A]

I'm not talking about people who are people who work in a thing and then have a level of influence. People whose only job is influencer.

[B]

No, I don't think so.

[A]

I don't do it.

[B]

Maybe a couple of people to be polite because we've met at a thing or something. But no, if I'm like, really honest, like people who are. I think that that actually and the ways in which this is a time capsule is I do think that level of influencer for definitely for our generation. Maybe Gen Z and Gen A are like having their own moment with them. But the idea of somebody whose whole job is to sit near a wall drinking apparel spritz in a nice outfit and that's enough.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

I think that phase may have come and gone. What I do think is highly Specific influences are now a thing where it's.

[A]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[B]

I'm a dermatologist working in Kent, and here's my thing.

[A]

Like, you know, I follow so many people who have very specific things, and I'm like, but. But I feel like that's not influencer.

[B]

That's an expert.

[A]

Exactly. That's an expert who happens to have had the kind of collective, like, everyone going, oh, yeah, they're quite good at this thing. And therefore, I want to know. But the. There was that period in time where people could just decide to be an influencer without a thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it just sort of seemed to happen and. And they would just be very anonymous, very generic photos. And maybe Fyre Festival was what killed that. And there's still a few going.

[B]

Do you know what peeled back? Actually, it's a very good point and a very good place to start from because, like, I think, like, you can't really start the story of Fyre Festival without starting at the end. Because the end, the one most people heard about it was when the Schadenfraud had already set in, which was that all these influencers and people who wanted to be near influencers who are almost guilty of a larger crime had already spent thousands and thousands or had been gifted this experience that they thought was gonna be a luxurious Bahamian festival with celebrities and models and baby pigs in the water and stuff. And then they got. What they got was like hurricane tents, tents that were literally existed for hurricane safety procedures. And a cheese sandwich in a box.

[A]

A cheese sandwich in a box in a kind of what seemed like a bluff at the edge of an island next to a sandals, surrounded by some of the worst people that humanity could conjure.

[B]

The worst. Just the worst. The worst. And by that we don't mean the Bahamians. We mean.

[A]

No, oh, no, we 100% don't.

[B]

Organizing the festival.

[A]

We mean the festival of organizers and the fellow attendees.

[B]

Yes, exactly.

[A]

Who all went Lord of the Flies way quicker than, I think your average. I think if you took an average sample of people and you put them in that situation, I think they would last longer before descending into chaos. They lasted about 20 minutes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Real narcissists.

[B]

They arrived at 6pm and by midnight it was carnage.

[A]

Low collectivist.

[B]

Yeah, a low collectivist spirit. But I think maybe if we're talking about, like, if the question that we're asking ourselves here has the Age of the Influence have come and gone, then I mean, obviously it hasn't gone. People I know are at Wilderness Festival getting Free yurts. But the is. Did the Fyre Festival mark a moment in time where everyone realized that these people that we follow are the many people, not you and I, but many people were following, whose job was to look great and go to things and to post pictures and who were garnering hundreds of thousands of likes and millions of followers. Oh, do we have. We, as everyone, hated them all along because we are delighting in their suffering. You know, I think that killed the marketing category of influencer.

[A]

I don't think it killed it, but I do think it's made a shift so that people have to have something to be a. I think to be a really good influencer now, you actually have to be doing something else quite a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you can't just turn up and look pretty because that's just modeling. That's a job already.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it has a whole thing going for it.

[B]

Yeah. Because. Yeah.

[A]

I don't. I feel like the glee with which people.

[B]

Well, this is an interesting thing because the modeling versus influencing. Right. Because this was a festival that was sold to the public with models.

[A]

Models who. Yeah. Influential models.

[B]

Influential models. Right. Who looked very frightened in that footage of them at the. Yeah.

[A]

So I. So I know a thing that I learned here, which I hadn't learned before and I assume is true rather broadly, more broadly than just the US Is that Fyre Festival seemed to be the kind of genesis of the legislative change where influencers have to state when they're receiving compensation for what they're doing, which I'd never really thought about why that happened. I always think it's a good thing that it's happened for a variety of reasons. But this was because some of those models, like the Kendall Jenners and the Bella Hadid's and Hayley Biebers got sued for basically misrepresenting things, making it look like they were having a lovely holiday, just, you know, just casually, for no real reason.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And actually, in fact, they were being paid to endorse something. And so that we kind of. That. That was the moment, I think, at which, on a very high level, with very severe consequences, people realized that those influence can just be selling you absolute shit they don't know about, care about, or believe in. And transparency is required. So there's that.

[B]

There's that.

[A]

But the second thing is, by the.

[B]

Way, if it sounds like we're in a festival right now.

[A]

Oh, it's because my neighbor is having his Friday afternoon music session, which I really enjoy. For him.

[B]

Yeah. But for podcasting, that's great.

[A]

You know, it's not great for podcasting, but for this specific podcast.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Where we. Whether when you watch the film, there's the constant echo of, like, sort of weird drum beats in the background. Like, yeah, it's good, it's good.

[B]

I like it. I'm moving, grooving his cello, like, vibes.

[A]

Actually, today, I would say I'm often here. Sometimes I'm like, oh, it's been a bad week, has it, Jerome?

[B]

Okay, I am enjoying it.

[A]

Yeah, I'm enjoying it anyway. But yes, there was this, this moment where, yeah, these models basically got sued. And then we got legislation around people having to say when they're being paid to do stuff. But also, as far as we could tell, at the end of the film and we have jumped to the end, but definitely worth watching. I've seen it. They say, well, the real Fyre Festival wasn't actually the Fyre Festival at all. It was the production, it was the promo film shoot. That was the amazing Fyre fest where like 60 people had an incredible time. And I was like, no, no, they didn't.

[B]

We saw the footage.

[A]

20 men had an incredible time and 40 really hot women looked a bit frightened and uncomfortable, terrified, and were made to do things they weren't comfortable with, like leap around in the sea in the night and pose in bikinis and did the little tiny choir acts of protest that they could of, like, not tagging Fyre Festival in videos and not looking particularly happy and probably not swishing their hair either.

[B]

Not swishing their hair. Political acts. Political acts for the imprisoned beautiful woman. That's actually fascinating when you think about it, because, you know, now that the Fyre Festival has passed into lore and will be a myth of the ancients, like, analyzing these bits that didn't necessarily get picked up on in the first round of, you know, publicity, which is that this festival was entirely built on the images of these women who went on this press trip. And they do look in this footage, in this behind the scenes footage. Incredibly uncomfortable. Ja Rule is yelling at them to get in the water. They don't seem to have a sense of, like, when they're on film and when they're supposed to be just enjoying themselves and whether they're enjoying themselves as part of the film. And they don't seem to have any control of that either. And they're just making, like, very, like, very panicked eyes at one another. Like they don't feel very safe.

[A]

What's the thing is, if you actually, actually ever work with any kind of talent in that respect, like creating commercial footage. And again, I'm not a production person, but I very much work in that building. And particularly if it's high profile talent like the likes of the Bella Hadid's of the world, they are used to incredibly, like, structured lockdown sets where they know exactly where they've got to be. They've got call shoes, they've got call times, they've got agreed working hours, they've got riders, they've got like a whole thing about what you can do and what you can't do and what trousers they do or do not want to wear. And like, they're allowed that. And then they were just literally thrown to the wolves by the looks of things like this. And you could see again, I know so many people, particularly in the early part of this film, who were very politely trying to mask the like, horror and panic in their eyes at the production company basically going, yeah, we were not really given any power to actually produce the way that we are supposed to. And that we know is a good thing to do. And yeah, it was just. It was madness. But there are still people who were there who clearly thought that was good, that was a good ad shoot. It wasn't a good ad shoot.

[B]

That should not be the lesson you learned from the Real Fyre Festival. Happened at the promo shoot. Yeah. For maybe 30 guys.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, who didn't.

[A]

Who, like in a tale as old as time didn't realize that all of those women were just doing fake smiles for money.

[B]

Totally. And it's so fast. It's just really fascinating when you reanalyze that footage and be like. Because almost every single person who is a talking head is. I think there's two women. There's one woman who is like. I think she's on the digital side of things.

[A]

She was like a product manager or product designer. Yeah, she's a product.

[B]

And another woman who was Bahamian restaurant owner. Yes. Who's such a really winning and really beautiful. And she made all her money back through crowdfunding, which is good.

[A]

Thank God, because we did check that immediately when we heard that she'd lost her life savings, we were like, please.

[B]

Tell me someone go funded her.

[A]

And they did. Thank God.

[B]

But the whole thing of like. But they keep coming back to the promise of women or something.

[A]

The number of just snapshots of them on yachts and in bikinis and touching pigs. There were no pigs in the Wildfire Festival.

[B]

They sold these tickets because of the images and idea of that. Like people would get to hang out with Kendall Jenner or Gigi Hadid or at least people who looked like them. And it was just really interesting to be like, oh, they had no. It was. Yeah, I keep going back to that. It was sold off the back of them. But they had nothing to do with it. And they were almost the first victims of it in this. True victims in a real way, but a victim senses that they had an uncomfortable time with weird people.

[A]

Yeah, they had a comfortable time with weird people. And so actually, in some ways, the True Fire Festival was just like the Big Fyre Festival. Yeah, those people had comfortable times with weird people around them. And there was lots of footage of it.

[B]

What did you think of this whole. And this is very. Minute Men Met Him.

[A]

This is one of our most misandrist podcast episodes.

[B]

I really think if you. If someone were to take my. And our whole body of work. I'm a huge fan of men.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Love them.

[B]

Whatever. But, like, the worst aspects of masculinity are on display in this. In this documentary. And I think part of it is like, the sort of the idea of the investor and the visioneer and the one person, the. In the insane individualism of the idea that there's one guy who has the knowledge and the vision that everyone is really keen to sort of fall behind for what seems like no reason. It's a bit like when people say that, like, Ted Bundy was so charming and attractive, and you're like, no, he wasn't.

[A]

No, I wouldn't.

[B]

No, he wasn't.

[A]

No.

[B]

Or men love talking about how hot JFK was. Like, no, he wasn't.

[A]

Yeah, I'm. I trying to put my finger on this because I feel like. I don't know why I was thinking about this other day, but there are many personality tests you can do out there. And I think I got made to do some by some work, by some colleague thing recently. And one of the, like, axes, I believe, for one is agreeableness, which is basically like how prepared you are to just sort of go along with things and be like, oh, yeah, cool. And, like, keeping the peace and, like, collaborating and being like, you know, sometimes a fantastic energy to have, like, poor oil and troubled waters. I think that's definitely one of these in this film. And I love him. And at the other end, there's kind of like the. The less agreeable people who are more the. No, the emperor is naked. He's not wearing any clothes.

[B]

Yeah. And there are a few of those people.

[A]

There are a few of those as well. And I think I know from doing personality tests and also from being a person who works that I sit very much at the less agreeable end. Like, if someone says something that I think is stupid, I've been told too many times in reviews that my face has subtitles. And even if I'm trying to smile, someone's like, you can tell that she thinks it's really stupid because she's. I'm just like, what the hell are you saying? It's probably the reason I'll never get promoted. But I. I watched this, and I was like, that they really did a really good job of kind of basically weeding out anyone who would do that and creating a strange island of men who said, yeah, sure, yeah, absolutely. And of course, you're right. There were some who were trying to, like, trying to put the brakes on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But what they needed was some real no men. You know, they had all the yes guys there. All the yes men were there en masse. They needed a few absolute knowers who were just saying, yeah, and there's a bit.

[B]

So there's one of the. Like, I think. Well, one of the reason why this documentary works so well and why documentaries that are similar to it will never. Will not get remembered in the same way are we watched. Because I think I will end up watching. Watching this again. Oh, yeah. Is that it has, like, some genuinely wonderful characters in it. Like, we mentioned the. The restaurant earlier a minute ago, and, like. But, like, I think his name is Andy.

[A]

Andy.

[B]

Andy, who I think went kind of viral himself after this documentary because he's like the father everyone dreams of having. Like, he's just so soft and gentle and he. But he is, like, very competent and good at his job and just very funny. And the reason he went viral is because Billy, who is the Visioneer Billy McFarlane, asked him to suck off the head of Bahamian customs in order for him to release their water. And. Which is like an ins. And like, he. And the thing is, like, he's like.

[A]

Yeah, I was prepared to do it.

[B]

I was prepared to do it.

[A]

I was gonna do it because I knew from our intro that that was a thing that happened.

[B]

And you were just trying. You were playing.

[A]

I was sitting there. I literally was like, I was gonna be the person who sucks dick for water. And when it was Andy, I literally wrote in big. I have done his cross half a page. Andy was the blowjob man. Exclamation point, I guess. I did not see that. I did not see. And he didn't do it. In the end, he didn't have to.

[B]

Just like this gentleman in his sweater vest, so gentle and lovely.

[A]

And he clearly like really reflected on his role in this at the end as well and was just like I realized that I was somehow complicit in. You know, he kept telling people to believe in Billy. He was a lovely yes man, but he was a yes man all the same.

[B]

Yeah. And something he said, which I really, I was like, wow, this is a lesson that's actually very useful for the rest of life of like when you solve problems for people who are incompetent.

[A]

I wrote it down. By solving problems, we were enabling them to continue creating this monster.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Oh, doesn't that hit home?

[B]

It really does. I'm not sure exactly where or how for my specific life. I just know it matters to really. That's exactly where now that there are so many people and. And I'm really thinking of women here who will. Because like who are socialized and taught and praised for being helpers and for easing situations that if you actually let them crash and burn sooner rather than later, you will actually save a lot.

[A]

Totally of people, you know. Yes. As an unagreeable woman in the workplace, I've definitely done that. It's like, it's not like you don't get a lot of praise for it, but you're like, I am not going to be the person who ruins my entire life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because no one will say no to this. Almost always senior man holding a huge cigar saying, just make it happen. Saying things like, we're not a problems focused group, Jen. We're a solutions focused group. And I'd be like, well, perhaps you could find the solution. Name God. Yeah.

[B]

It's funny.

[A]

Not fun.

[B]

We keep like. I mean this is what, this is what makes the Fire Festival a biblical text, which is that we're barely even talk like it's a bit like if we were talking about the sort of, you know, the long term relevance of Noah's Ark, we'd almost not talk about the flood because everyone knows about the flood. It's like talking about like getting, getting the animals two by two. You know, it's like, it's like we've lived with the Fire Festival in our heads for so long now. It's almost like I'm extracting it for other lessons and myths that aren't. Just don't put on a festival in a place that has no resources to have a festival. You know this.

[A]

It genuinely feels like a powerful text around, around like the dangers of Enabling. Enabling people and not holding them accountable for their own things. Like, the whole film is basically the story of man who goes, here's a lovely idea. I'm sure someone else will do it for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And doesn't actually take any responsibility for his own stuff. At any point, at no point in this film do we see Billy McFarlane actually go, no. Yeah.

[B]

Fuck.

[A]

I probably do need more than just these hurricane tents.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's horrifying.

[B]

And like. Okay, so let's go back. Let's go to Billy McFarlane, who is the sort of, like. I mean, obviously he's not interviewed because some level of self preservation, I'm sure.

[A]

And also, it turns out he was in prison.

[B]

In prison. Which. Love that. So what was your psychological profiling of Billy McFarlane, the imagineer behind Fyre Fest?

[A]

I mean, my psychological profiling of him turned out to be the same thing that they kind of concluded at the end. I think in the first few minutes of this documentary, I was like, oh, this is one of those kids who had a shit time at school and just really wanted to hang out with all the rich, beautiful people. And so he's just hoping he can make that happen. And at the end, the whole kind of conclusion is, yeah, Billy just thought he belonged with the private jets and the fast cars. Like, he just. He was clearly a very. There's some deep wound in him that he tried to fix with fraud.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he was friends with Anna Delvey.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And similar vibe. Kind of like, I belong in this set. And had really drunk the Kool Aid, which is, of course, a reference to a cult. And decided that the most important thing in the world was to hang out with famous people and to be seen to be hanging out with famous people and to be making money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And nothing else.

[B]

This thing of, like, this absolute faith that everybody else in the world felt the same way.

[A]

God. Yeah.

[B]

That. Like that to create this monster that. That would attract people who want nothing more than, like, an experience that looks beautiful and that is adjacent to fame. He's like, yeah, everyone wants this. This is what Joe Blow wants. What he means is, this is what I want more than anything. I want to look like I'm adjacent to. Into fame and talent and specialness. But, like. And I guess that's what everybody who bought a Fyre Festival ticket. I'm not saying everybody.

[A]

Maybe he's not. He's wrong in the sense that not everybody wants it, but there are quite a lot of people who want that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's what's quite satisfying about when it goes wrong, isn't it? Isn't it? Because you're watching and you're like, yeah. Oh, no.

[B]

Oh, no. Oh, dear.

[A]

Like, obviously last year Burning man got rained out and it was. I found that I was really enjoying all of the content coming up. Burning man last year, for much the same reason as Fyre Fest, I was like, oh, really? Rich people who were gonna send through smug posts for the next three weeks and now stuck in rivers of poo.

[B]

What a shame. What a terrible shame.

[A]

What a pity. Let me click on this hashtag. Get out my popcorn. And scrubbing like.

[B]

And this kind of gets me. This is something I thought about a lot when we were at the festival last weekend, which was that. So, as we mentioned at the top of the podcast, you and I came of age during this time in festivals where it was accepted that not only would you behave disgustingly, you would look disgusting.

[A]

Yeah. And no one would ever see it because you'd have a little Polaroid camera.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I still have some disposables, like, around for my first festival that I have treasure and I look horrible in them. But there's obviously been a shift, we all know that in the last decade or so where festivals have become more and more a place to, like, obviously it's a show, it's a social place. You go with gangs of friends you see, you meet other gangs of friends, you make new friends, but you're also there to be seen. It's like a place where people are taking a lot of photographs. There's a lot of, like, cool outfits going on and stuff. And like, I thought it was so interesting when, you know, we were there with them, a bunch of of our friends and, like, looking around at all of us and we all looked fine, but, like, not one person was, like, dressed in a. Like, was. Was talking about the themes of the each day or whatever. And it was interesting to me that, like, dressing up for festivals kind of seems to run in packs.

[A]

Yeah. You either. You're either a do or don't you on that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You're either in a group where you're like, we're all gonna dress up as, like, you know, birds this day.

[A]

Yeah. Or whatever. I kind of love that.

[B]

I love that for them.

[A]

I don't want to carry that to.

[B]

The suit to the festival. No, I don't want to carry that. But I also kept thinking about, like, how are we sort of at the beginning of the end now with festivals? And by that I mean we are we have changed the meaning of them so that they are. They are becoming glossier and glossier. Right. And so. And which is great. I love. I love being a part of the Bougie festival experience. It's very fun, like hot tubs and rivers and, you know, great food and champagne tents and stuff. But, like, the further and, like, the more that festival set the standard for themselves to be higher and higher and it becomes more and more untenable because ultimately these are like luxury products happening in rural settings. So it gets harder and harder to achieve. That means in order to do it, you have to, like, get more and more influencers who are shown to be there, like, like enjoying the spoils of the festival. That means you have to lose more and more money. And so it got me thinking, like, well, is this like a race to the bottom of making. The expectations will keep going up. It'll get more and more untenable. People get disappointed, it will crash and our kids won't go to festivals. Or maybe it will reset back to zero and be reading again.

[A]

I think more likely to reset back to zero.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think it's much more likely you'll see a festival which is like, phones are banned, really, like, there's no luxury camping. I just think someone will do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I do think, because it still isn't universal, like, you know, as long as there's still one woman who's showing up in some old harem pants and a shirt is me.

[B]

And you are holding that line because.

[A]

Becky Teacups took so many photos and posted them on the Internet. And I was like, God, thanks, Becky. I love that she does that.

[B]

I love those.

[A]

But equally, I'm just like, la, la, la, la. Sunburn with a bucket hat on.

[B]

We were all like that.

[A]

Someone's grandmother who's been brought along for a day trip, as long as there's someone there, and as long as there is a thing I also saw at Wilderness, a man who's mistaken a little barrier. You know, the little barriers that are around the edges of food trucks stop you from going around the back. A man who's so deep in a K hole that he thinks he's at the front of the main stage and is just like, yeah, at the back of a chip shop. As long as those people are still there, the spirit of festivals is not dead.

[B]

Oh, that really is the spirit of festival.

[A]

Just one lone man. Yeah. Screaming catering fan convinced he's at the front of the main stage.

[B]

I love that so much.

[A]

One of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

[B]

That is genuinely very beautiful.

[A]

I just sat there and watched for a bit, like, oh, wow, wow, wow.

[B]

True British eccentricity will never die.

[A]

Never. He seemed fine.

[B]

Best of all, the fine.

[A]

Giving a water, he was all right. So, yeah, I think festivals are gonna be okay. I think they might go back around. I think, you know, us true pioneers.

[B]

True pioneers. True pioneers went like three.

[A]

We'll keep the old ways. We keep the old ways.

[B]

We practice the old faith.

[A]

We will continue on and festivals will be fine. And Fyre Fest, I mean, Fyre Fest is coming back, apparently.

[B]

So Fyre Festival two way. When really it should be Fyre Festival one, because the initial Fyre Fest never happened.

[A]

I just.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's like, you can buy tickets now, can't you?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

They haven't got a date lockdown, they haven't got a location lockdown, but it's happening. Do you think people are actually buying tickets to it?

[B]

I don't know, because people, like. I mean, this kind of brings us back to, like, the Summer of Scam, which was like, Anna Delvey, Caroline Calloway, like, the idea that, like, people would keep. I think actually Karen Calloway has become much more reliable in her output these days and she's just writing stuff and self publishing and I think that's fucking great. And I think she's cool. But, like, there was a time where she was like, I'm selling my, like, literally stuff called snake oil. I am selling paintings that I don't send to people. And people still keep spending money because they're almost like this. They're so, like, darkly curious as to whether or not they'll receive their thing or what. Even the process of buying will even feel like. People love being part of. With their cash, man. What else was in this documentary?

[A]

Sorry, I'm just, like, just sitting there, just marveling at how much people like to be scammed.

[B]

They like to be scammed.

[A]

There's just some. Some level.

[B]

What do you think it is?

[A]

I don't know. I'm a very untrusting person. I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Something comes into my inbox and it's a bit off. I'm like, well, I don't trust that. I think that's true.

[B]

What's the hardest you've ever been scammed? You've never been scammed?

[A]

I honestly don't think I've been scammed. I honestly think I'm just too rude.

[B]

Yeah, fair enough. I imagine I am scammed far more than I think I am being scammed. Of course I've been scammed. I'm the most trusting, earnest fucking piece of shit ever.

[A]

I think I overpaid for someone to clean the gutters of my house because they knocked on my door.

[B]

That's not being scammed.

[A]

And they were like, it'll cost you this much money. And I was like, it would cost me less if I could actually be asked to call someone up and get them to come around. But you're here now and you have a ladder, so, sure, I'll pay you £100. I don't think that's a scam. I think that's just me paying above the market. Right. For convenience. Tell me, when were you scammed?

[B]

When I got scammed, I was. It was actually, you know, it was not far from here. It was. It was outside Stratford Westmields.

[A]

Why?

[B]

I've been scammed loads of times.

[A]

I think about it. No, do you know what? I do believe it.

[B]

I know. Very trusting, very open.

[A]

You are very trusting.

[B]

Like, I just. I would just rather take a chance on. Yeah, I would rather do the side quest. You know what I mean?

[A]

I love that for you.

[B]

Yeah. So I've been scammed in the ordinary way of, like, people coming up to me and being like, I'm on my way to a job interview and I got mugged or whatever. And, like, they have a huge convenience, convincing story.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And, like, I have. I have very often.

[A]

Like, that's not a scam, that.

[B]

Like, obviously a scam.

[A]

It is a scam.

[B]

I know, because it happened to me with the same person twice.

[A]

But given the obviousness of the scam, is that not just one of those, like, polite fictions where they say the thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you. And you almost are like, well, I know that you. You just want money and they take.

[B]

Your phone number and they talk to you about how they're gonna get the train and then they're gonna call you. And like.

[A]

Yeah, no, I haven't got. No.

[B]

Oh, no. I've gotten deep in with these people. And I also had a thing where somebody was pretending to be a Mac representative. Like, Mac, the makeup brand.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And they had the branding and everything like that. And they were like, oh, do you want to, like. Like, give us your email and phone number? And you in with the chat outside Westfields, like, you, you know, with chance of winning, like, 500 quid worth of Mac stuff. And I was like, absolutely. I'm 20 years old. That's great.

[A]

Right, sure.

[B]

And then I got a call from them saying, like, you won. I was like, that's incredible. I never won.

[A]

Me, never.

[B]

And they were like, yeah, you've won the. You've won the gold package. I was like, the gold package doesn't sound like Mac branding, but, okay, what's the gold package? They're like, oh, so you're getting on the makeup, but you're all. We're also like, we're doing a photo shoot with all the winners. I was like, cool. And. And. And they're like. And we were going through it, and so, like, you. You know, and there's like, 20 or whatever. And they were like, yeah, we're doing photos and you'll have a pampering day, and then you'll go away with your big thing of Mac makeup. It's like, this sounds wonderful. I love this. And they're like, yeah, so where are you based? And we'll just. We'll do it in a studio that's convenient for you. And I was like, oh, I think I was living in Elephant and Castle at the time. And they were like, oh, great. So we're gonna call you back when we have the studio. And I was like, great. The studio. They were like, we found a studio, but we need £100 to reserve the studio. And obviously you'll get that bag.

[A]

I'm like, did you pay them?

[B]

I was 21 years old. Of course I did. Of course. It's the stupidest thing in the whole world. So elaborate, all that effort to get £100. So many stages, the scam. But I guess if you think about, like, Stratford Westfield, how many, like, teen girls and girls in their early 20s are walking in and out every day? Like, that's still a lot of effort. I know. It's a lot of effort to get the branding and everything, because not everyone's.

[A]

Gonna go for it. Some people. There's gonna be a real dropout there.

[B]

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I think it's when you're developing a rapport with people over several phone calls and you're like, well, I've already thought about all the makeup. I'm gonna.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So listen, you've bought tickets for Fyre Festival 2017.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've paid.

[B]

So that's impossible for me to imagine.

[A]

But sure, let's put ourselves into myself. Well, we've done that. We've both bought tickets because we're like, fantastic. I want to go to a private jet to a private island and hang out with. With all the sexy celebrity women. And as you get close to the time they Email you and they say you should load up your wristband with 3,000American dollars. What do you do then?

[B]

I ring you. Yeah, I call you.

[A]

That's a really good choice.

[B]

Yeah, I call you because you know what I do?

[A]

I cancel my ticket to Fyre Festival.

[B]

Is that what you do? Immediately?

[A]

100%.

[B]

Second I do that, where it's like, we recommend that you top up your wristbands 100%.

[A]

That is immediately giving cash flow issue.

[B]

Really?

[A]

That's giving. We don't have money to pay our suppliers, and we need advance cash from you now.

[B]

God. See, my mind would never even go there. I know it's easy to say that I would go there, like, after having watched the documentary and seeing what happens, but I would have been like, oh, great.

[A]

I'd be like, oh, I'd be like, oh, this is cool. I'm gonna be immediately cancelling my ticket to this thing that I.

[B]

And I would just do whatever you did.

[A]

Okay, that's great, because I was gonna work out how far you'd get. Like, would you get onto the island?

[B]

Let's say that you're not there.

[A]

So I don't pick up, and you're like, she's not there, but she's still going. So as far as you know, I'm still going. Okay, so next. You see, this is a good game. It's a good game. So you've put your 3,000American dollars onto your RFID wristband, and you've had a look around. There's no real information about how that wristband is going to work or what infrastructure they've got in place. But don't worry about that. That's fine.

[B]

The next hurdle is the flights.

[A]

Next huddle is the flight. So it's like a week out, and, you know, you've paid for this private jet, but you haven't been told where the flight's taking off from or what time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What you do then, and I'm calling me is not an option. I've. I've disappeared into the ocean.

[B]

I'm living just on my wits.

[A]

You're living on your wits.

[B]

You can't call Gavin either.

[A]

No, you can't. Gavin. You can't call anybody. Surely you just. You on your own. What happens then?

[B]

Okay. Because they actually never clear up what happens with the flights. Because, like, everyone. Everyone gets on a flight eventually, I guess.

[A]

Eventually the flight information comes out. Are you messaging them on Instagram?

[B]

See, the thing is, at this point, I'm already. How many thousands in the hole?

[A]

Probably 10,000. At least in the hole.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Maybe more if you put more in that wristband.

[B]

Yeah, I'm. I'm definitely going. I'm calling up. I'm doing a lot of digital sleuthing. I'm definitely seeing those comments. I'm getting very worried.

[A]

Yeah, you're getting worried.

[B]

Yeah, getting really worried.

[A]

Last minute SunClass Fantasy is a powerful motivator of behavior.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The last minute email comes in and it says you'd be at Miami Airport at 4pm on Sunday. We cannot wait to welcome you.

[B]

I'd be like, great salves.

[A]

Brilliant.

[B]

It's fixed. Great. Solved.

[A]

So you get to the airport.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you get onto your private jet. And it is, in fact, a really old 737.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What are you doing?

[B]

Oh, I don't care at all.

[A]

You're so easy to scare.

[B]

I know. I'm just like, oh, my God. Because what am I gonna do? Knock it on the jet, Knock it on the plane.

[A]

Like, at this point, you've checked. I mean, presumably at this point, of course, you've checked the Instagram, you've checked around. You notice there are no pictures of the site. Maybe even found.

[B]

Oh, I'm panicking the whole time.

[A]

You found some information that suggests that the site may not be built because there is a whole website dedicated to debunking.

[B]

Oh, if I found that, then absolutely. That would be the club.

[A]

That would be the one for you. But if I'd be out at that moment.

[B]

But I think.

[A]

But you haven't found that. So you're on the plane.

[B]

I think, realistically, their marketing team has done such a good job. Right. That they have blanketed the Internet with pictures of Kendall Jenner and pigs that, like, it would take quite a lot of sleuthing, like, quite advanced sleuthing to find the Fyre Festival is just hurricane tents and cheese sandwiches sort of thing. And they haven't built the side. You know, I love the Caribbean. I love the Bahamas.

[A]

Yeah, that's true. That's true.

[B]

Yeah. So I'm like. So I think at this point, I'm like, listen, maybe it's not everything that I think it's gonna be, but the Bahamas are great.

[A]

How bad could the Bahamas be?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Do you check the weather forecast?

[B]

Yeah, I definitely see about the rain and I'm definitely.

[A]

This is a great game.

[B]

This is like Myers Briggs for the new generation.

[A]

Honestly, someone should make the Fyre Festival test as a personality test, like the game of life.

[B]

But like Fyre Festival, it's like you can, like, you Know, win air mattresses or whatever. There's a knot in my stomach. I have chronic ibs. I am so weirded out. I am chattering constantly to everyone on the plane because I have a strong sort of, like, primordial sense of having to make allies.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Even though I don't know why.

[A]

You'll find out why soon.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And, yeah. Okay. So I'm on the jet. I'm making pals, but I'm really worried.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

I keep refreshing the weather app. It's bad weather in the Bahamas.

[A]

They're really important questions where I think something will go right for you. What luggage have you packed?

[B]

The fat sister.

[A]

And? And nothing else.

[B]

And nothing else.

[A]

This is going to really help you.

[B]

Yeah. So luckily, Jennifer, I have overhead storage. I am not checking my luggage. This is presuming that I'm already in America anyway. That I haven't, like, flown from London to Miami. And then.

[A]

Of course, you're already in America.

[B]

I'm an American woman.

[A]

You're a rich guy.

[B]

Imagine me American. Unbearable.

[A]

Rich American girl doll, Caroline.

[B]

Rich American girl doll Caroline O'Donoghue.

[A]

So you. So. But luckily, you haven't brought. No, I've got my fat sister, a huge Ramoa suitcase.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's good.

[B]

That's gonna serve you well when the.

[A]

Hunger Games begin as a result.

[B]

Yes, it will serve me well. As a result. I am first off the plane. And so I am at the. And you know what I think is actually gonna happen to me? Because, Jennifer, I am easily scammed. But the same reason that I'm easily scammed is also why I am, like, I get along quite easily in life because I've got a big, friendly face.

[A]

You do?

[B]

I think I get off the plane. I get off the plane pretty quickly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And everybody else is still, like, futzing around with their luggage. I've got the fat sister. And this is what I hope would happen. I get to the airport, start chatting to some lads who are maybe Bahamians or whatever.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they're like, I don't know if you're gonna have a good time at this festival. And maybe I take someone's number.

[A]

Oh, Caroline.

[B]

I think what dooms me is also what saves me. I was.

[A]

I love this for you.

[B]

I believe that.

[A]

I believe you don't end up on the festival ground. You go to a fantastic party. You end up just staying in someone's spare room for a few days.

[B]

I think I get to the festival ground, and then I call the lads.

[A]

Yeah. And then you're like, listen, it's me, it's Caroline.

[B]

Remember me from the airport?

[A]

Irish Disney princess, you may recall. And you just go and like kick on someone's sofa for a week and you like drink cocktails and you like. Maybe you swim with pigs.

[B]

Yeah, I don't think I'm that charming.

[A]

I think you're pretty charming. I think you manage it.

[B]

But I do think that I manage to avoid the worst of the indignities.

[A]

You avoid that full on first night in the hurricane tents where people create forts and actively sabotage tents around them to prevent.

[B]

Here's something that didn't come up in the hurricane in the first night. The sort of dystopia that rapidly. Do you think a sex trade emerged?

[A]

So like when you said blowjob for water. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

[B]

You thought it was like an influencer girl, probably after water. Right, right, right, right.

[A]

And I was thinking, how thirsty would I have to be? I don't know.

[B]

We need to lubricate the mouth first. Really? You can't give a blazon a dry mouth. That's. That's a non starter.

[A]

That would just be. That would be criminal.

[B]

Horrible for everybody. I guess that's how you get the water. You're like, well, if you want me to suck you off, I'm gimme some water first. Fiji first.

[A]

Half a Fiji now and half on completion.

[B]

Half on completion.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

One for moistening, one for rinsing.

[A]

I think. I don't think. I don't think they get desaturated in the first night, but I think they probably weren't far off it.

[B]

Right. Because.

[A]

Because they're all attractive people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

With very few other skills.

[B]

Very few other skills.

[A]

No one. There's like, oh, I can build a fire with my bare hands.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

No one. There's like I can catch pigs and roast them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No one there can douse for water. Not that either of us can do either of those things.

[B]

No, but. Yeah, but like, I wonder how quickly the bottom fell out of the sex trade because people were just offering too many handies and blaseys.

[A]

The market was flooded.

[B]

The value of that currency just completely.

[A]

Is this when you talk about shorting? We still don't know.

[B]

We still don't know.

[A]

We flood the market with handies and blozies at fyre festival. This is a fantastic critical analysis of the fire festival.

[B]

I'm actually loving it because I feel like what's so great about a story everybody knows is that you can make it your Own, you know.

[A]

So it's now true that the. The value of a Handy crashed during Fyre Festival.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like the international Handy Stock exchange just plummeted.

[B]

There were too many going around, too.

[A]

Many on the market.

[B]

Just not too many market and too few resources. I feel like I finally understand inflation for the first time in my life. Had so many people trying to explain to me and now I get it.

[A]

Now you're like, oh, it's just. What happened to Blasies?

[B]

What happened to Blasies and Handys during the Pirate Festival?

[A]

Oh, look, there we are. We should make his economics teachers good. My God, it's like. What's so great also is that that's just like the last 20 minutes of the film when you just see how bad it was.

[B]

I know, it's a beautiful payoff. So much of it is just like the administrative cult. Like, they're growing unease. Yeah, the growing unease. And like, lots of people quit and lots of people were replaced.

[A]

The Flying Dutchman. Who's replaced the Flying Dutchman.

[B]

A Dutchman who taught himself how to fly.

[A]

I mean, I thought he was going to be a real bad guy in this when he said, yeah, you can just teach yourself to fly with Microsoft Flight Simulator. And look, I come from a family of plane people. And I was like, no, you can't.

[B]

You simply cannot.

[A]

You simply cannot do that.

[B]

I believe your parents entire business is teaching pilots.

[A]

People fly planes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I mean, fairness, there's bigger ones than that. Like, you know, commercial jets rather than prop planes. I don't actually know if he's Dutch. I'm purely taking that off his accent and. Because then it's funny because you can call him Flying Dutchman, but he actually turned out to be quite a little pillar of strength. An early no man. When he tried camping on the island with his wife.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And in his very gentle Dutch, could be Flemish. I don't know, tones. It was like, yeah, it's not comfortable. I would strongly recommend against.

[B]

Yeah, there's no air conditioning. There's mosquitoes everywhere. It's really loud with cicadas and things. Like, it's not comfortable or nice or even really tenable. And they're like, sir, you are fired.

[A]

They're like, team change out happening here.

[B]

But like that. All the nomen were fired at such an early juncture.

[A]

Apart from the ones who, like, there are some people who go on a journey to become no men by the end of the film.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One. Okay. Do you know what? I don't know either of their Names.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

One of whom I found a bit annoying and one of whom I think was a great character in this film. Slightly annoying man was called something like Mr. Meister. He had, like, a walk. Walk. Meinstein, maybe.

[B]

Oh, he was a Weinstein. Yeah. I remember thinking.

[A]

I don't think he was a Weinstein.

[B]

I remember thinking, not that one.

[A]

I think he was a Mindstein.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm pretty certain that he was.

[B]

Yeah, he was kind of fit.

[A]

Yeah, he was fit, but he's been a lot of the early part of his life.

[B]

He had climber energy.

[A]

He had climber energy. And he also was really not quick enough to say, these people are awful. Because quite a lot of the early film was. He was like, it's a huge accomplishment to sell out your festival. And I was like, no, it's not if you've got fucking Bella Hadid.

[B]

Not if you don't have a festival.

[A]

Yeah. And then he was like, there was no Internet and infrastructure there. So it was really amazing that we managed to do that. I'm like. And that's not a. Not a warning sign?

[B]

Yeah. They were like, it's amazing. We edited and made this commercial essentially from this island in the Bahamas, even though we had no Internet or infrastructure. It's like, well, that should have been.

[A]

And you didn't extrapolate from that a little tiny bit.

[B]

If you can't edit a video and send it over Wetransfer, you probably can't.

[A]

Do an RFID wallet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. He also was there when he was saying that when the festival was first announced, industry insiders were laughing, and he was like, real resentment in the air. People were. And I thought, listen, they know something we don't know. Either they know something we don't know, or these men are geniuses. And then he didn't immediately go. And it turned out that they knew something we didn't know, which is that you cannot put a festival on a remote island with no funding. And.

[B]

No, it's crazy that, like, not a single act played. Like, we didn't hear from any of the musicians, who. At least some of them must have made the flight, Right?

[A]

No, we did see. We heard from one guy. I've forgotten who he was.

[B]

Oh, no. One of the guys in Major Laser.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

He came for, like, a recce.

[A]

Yeah. And then was like, oh, oh, oh. Not feeling good here. It's not feeling great. But he trusted them. He trusted them. He shouldn't have trusted them. The trust thing. A lot of trust. And where was the trust earned from?

[B]

I Do think that everyone's had experiences in their life where they've like, you know, fallen out with a friend or co worker or a boss or whatever and you find out that they were just not being honest about who they were or like. Or like an element of their personality became visible that was so hidden from you. And I do think that is a genuinely more than like physical discomfort or like, you know, people threatening to murder you because you've not paid their workers who've been working non stop for a month. Jesus. I think almost the longer lasting trauma is your own character judgment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

When you feel like your character judgment is off, I think it's a really destabilizing process.

[A]

Yeah. And I think quite a few people in this film speak to that and speak to the fact that particularly with Billy, like, he was incredibly charming and people were really drawn to him and they believed that he could make stuff happen.

[B]

Yeah. Because he had made stuff happen.

[A]

Well, to an extent he kind of had. Because he had. What was it? Was it Magnesis or something?

[B]

Magnesis, which was kind of like halfway between an Amex and Yelp, it seemed.

[A]

Yeah. So it was like a kind of members credit card thing. And I wrote this down because I was so shocked by it. It was again, some talking head men talking about why Magnesis had worked. And it was like girls liked the metal clank when the card was put down, which is like men. I mean, you're just getting us so wrong as an entire gender. If you think that like putting a metal card on a table might be like, oh, I'm wet for you. Like, I don't love the clank of metal.

[B]

That's so lame.

[A]

It's so lame. But there are people who genuinely believe it and maybe there are people who.

[B]

Profile for what like so many men think, or what women find attractive is.

[A]

A metal credit card.

[B]

Do you know what?

[A]

I've got a metal credit card.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'd like my own metal credit card. Upon the table. They're everywhere now.

[B]

Men are depressing.

[A]

Men are very depressing because they were just there. So Magnesis was successful in that people paid money to have a method or credit card which was going to give them access to stuff, but it didn't give them access to anything.

[B]

I think it must have given them access to some things.

[A]

Not as many things, like reservations were cancelled.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. But it was also kind of a Soho House thing. They had a clubhouse where you could. Whatever.

[A]

Basically, Billy McFarlane, a man big on ideation, low on feasibility. You Know, doesn't do much of the. This is a great idea. Like we've all been there. Again, a lot of my job is someone going, I've got this amazing idea and me going, that's lovely. I'm not sure that magic exists. It's probably not going to happen. Production person, what do you say? And they say, no, kill it dead. We can't do that. That's not physically possible. And that's what happens in the world of business where you have actual checks and balances and accountability talking.

[B]

As somebody whose literally entire job is making things up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Apart from this, this part of my job which is talking shit. My whole job is talking shit and making stuff up. Which was also Billy McFarlane's job.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let me please be the first to say that ideas are the most overrated resource in, in any creative or any endeavor that we, we have sort of like over valorized the idea of the idea person to the point where it makes absolutely no fucking sense. Like it's like. And it's like, like, you know, I can only really speak to my own sort of like life. Obviously I'm trying not to be self involved here. But like me, I've written six now seven novels. The reason any of them have sold any copies is not because I had a great idea for any of them. All of those ideas were achievable by other people. When they are all written down to two or three sentences, they are basic. It's like a combination between like work ethic and knowing your marketplace and knowing your peers and like knowing like and doing all the bits of work that aren't just like having an idea. It is the most boring and least valuable part of a process. One in every hundred years someone comes up with fucking cold fusion or whatever and like then everything changes or like splitting the atom. But like really those ideas are quite rare. And the idea that people think that like people are just having ideas and then that's all and then they just hand them off to somebody else to a reliable team, pam off a load of money off them and then they just simply make it happen. And then we valorize that person at the top with the quote, unquote big idea.

[A]

Right. Even with splitting the atom. Like you've come up with the idea for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, Leonardo da Vinci thought you could probably fly, but no one did it for several hundred more years.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Work. And it takes. And that's why Elon Musk is shit as well, isn't it?

[B]

It's actually very. Because we're in an interesting week for Elon Musk right now.

[A]

What's he up to now? Oh, his daughter coming out and chatting shit about him or more or more.

[B]

Well so the thing that's happened most.

[A]

Recently, I mean not chatting shit but chatting absolute sense about him. Chatting absolute sense and incredibly valuable and it's just great to see and I.

[B]

Want to sensible high fiber shit texted to my dad but what I haven't seen what she says.

[A]

She basically just absolutely character assassinates him in a quite hilarious manner.

[B]

Well that's what happens when you have a ton of kids and you don't spend time with any of them. But the he is Twitter or X which I will never call it. No, he's gonna Twitter is suing is basically taking a class action suit against the biggest advertisers in the world because they said that the them not spending money on Twitter like post Musk taking over and turning it into a platform just for hate speech, that it was illegal boycotting and that you they suing them for not spending on Twitter. And he said something like we tried the easy way and now it's war.

[A]

Phenomenal.

[B]

Phenomenal.

[A]

Because of course he's very much one of the proponents components of unregulated capitalism. Because the market must decide. Yeah, the market must decide.

[B]

And if the market must decide that I was born with emerald minds.

[A]

Well, but the whole thing is like, you know, we don't regulate and we don't want balances and we don't want taxation because you know, good things will happen and people will put the money where the good things are. And then when people put refuse to put the money in bad things, suddenly they don't feel quite the same about it anymore.

[B]

Suddenly he wants to talk socialist about it.

[A]

Like hey, yeah, suddenly when the market decides that Twitter is a piece of shit for advertising, which I probably shouldn't.

[B]

Say which it always was.

[A]

But like when the market decides that it's not a brand safe platform and that it's not a place that many people now want to put their advertising. Now. Yeah, now it's all like oh no. But I deserve to have adverts because they do. Everyone gets some adverts, right? No.

[B]

Is this something like, okay, this is might be straying far from the beaten path, but I can forgive my dad and your dad's generation for believing in the myth of meritocracy because at least there it worked for them. It worked for them in a sense and like their idea that like oh, you know, if you just work hard and you're smart and conscientious and like the right people find their way to the right positions and people who are poor are therefore lazy. I'm not saying that my dad and your dad believed this specifically, but like there are certainly a whole generation of people who do.

[A]

Oh, 100%.

[B]

And I can so believe why. They believe that because of the marketplace of ideas they were growing up in and the kinds of people they saw around them. The kinds of presidential and sort of diplomatic people and whatever and sort of, I guess, I guess dignified millionaires, I suppose. But now that we are in the world of like dystopian like hideous shit talking billionaires who are so like classless and dumb, how can anyone still believe in the idea of meritocracy?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I think as my therapist often says, denial is a very powerful coping mechanism. And sometimes when the world does not look how we think it's going to look, we do have amazingly selective brains that just choose to ignore huge swathes of information.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's, it's remarkable.

[B]

It's remarkable. Which is exactly what happened to these people in this documentary.

[A]

Yeah. They, they could see that it was all going very wrong and they chose to ignore all of that information because it did not tally with their pre existing belief that Billy McFarlane would be good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that he would go do good by them and, and do right by them and not renege on his promises.

[B]

Well, there was a part where our friend Andy said, you know, I thought about, I get in the weeks in the days coming up, the festival all thought was Woodstock and about how nobody talks about the traffic and the mud and people dying of drug overdoses. Everyone just remembers this enormous cultural event that like shifted the consciousness and like the idea that you would be telling yourself that lie.

[A]

Yeah. The idea that you'd be using that and not also looking at the ways in which the world has changed. And since then, for example, there was no Instagram at Woodstock.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. There was no Instagram at Woodstock.

[A]

And I think for me one of the most beautiful moments of this whole documentary.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Was what I'd like to call my kingdom for a sandwich. That person being like all that investment they'd put in marketing, all the many models and influencers and famous people who posted a sort of like, I don't know, beige orange square festival. All taken down by that one guy with 450 followers posting a cheese sandwich.

[B]

Yeah. Isn't that crazy?

[A]

It was lovely.

[B]

And that really adds to the Greek myth of it all as well.

[A]

I think of like the Achilles heels.

[B]

The tool that made you is the tool that breaks you. You know.

[A]

Oh, the firing of all the caterers and then just the little sandwich, little cheese sandwich.

[B]

Sandwich. Sandwich.

[A]

Which in many other circumstances I'd actually find, fine, I'd eat that cheese sandwich. But not at Fyre Festival. Not at Fyre Festival. No.

[B]

I keep thinking about that moment as well, when they. They drive all the guests in the school buses to that lady's restaurant.

[A]

I think she's called Marianne.

[B]

Mary Ann.

[A]

Yeah, she's great. And I do think she's talking about. Yeah.

[B]

Very winning presence and the way that.

[A]

She just is like, okay, I'm just gonna make this. I'm gonna try and make this work. And she has so much like pride in what she does.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And understands very much the kind of potential long term consequences of this festival being a success for her and for like everyone lives in the island.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And the way that like the, you know, the victims in this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Are not actually the festival goers. Like obviously they are the victims of fraud.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The true victims are the people of the island, Many of whom worked for a month unpaid.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think they said. They said something like a quarter of a million pounds worth. Worth of. A quarter million dollars worth of unpaid wages.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By the time the festival, which feels.

[B]

Like a real under estimation because they.

[A]

Had like so many people.

[B]

So many people. Yeah.

[A]

And those people probably did not have recourse to class action lawsuits with Stacy, the lawyer from New York. And.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just a real bit of structural racism going on there as well. We'll touch on that.

[B]

Yeah. It almost feels like colonial, like. It feels.

[A]

Yeah, it did 100%. It did feel like that.

[B]

Yeah. And there was this, this bit that Marianne says where she is such a small part, but with where she's like towards the end documentary, she's getting quite upset. Like you can tell this is like really stirred up a lot for her. And like how.

[A]

Because she paid her staff on like Fire Festival.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Of her own savings and her own life savings.

[B]

And, and, and she sort of said like, I have to live here, I have to. I have to live with these people every day. You know, this is, this is like a real community kind of thing. And I can't even if I don't want to, I can't not. And so that's my life savings wiped out. And it really gave me a sense of like, you know, all these other marketing professionals and events producers and whatever, they can just start again. Everywhere, anywhere, whatever. They can basically wipe a year off their LinkedIn and start again. I think lots of them are also in the hole for, like, $200,000. They said.

[A]

Yeah, he just, like, put stuff on their. On their credit cards and then left them with it. Yeah.

[B]

Which is awful. And, like, obviously, but, like, the idea that, like, I don't know, it's something really interesting about, like, the sum. The people who are allowed to pick up and start again and the people who can't, like, and who also don't want to because this is their home and their family.

[A]

Exactly. And they. And she did so much work and she fed all of the crew members for weeks. Just. I'm so glad that the crowdfunder was raised for her.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I hope for the other people who are working on the island, because.

[B]

Fucking hell, it does go to show you. I think people often try and characterize the Internet and social media as being wholly good or wholly bad things. And it's a bit like saying music is wholly good or wholly bad. It's just like a form of, you know, a form of expression. And it's that thing of, like, within the Fyre Festival, there are both the. The sort of the nightmarish qualities of the Internet, but also the. The. The great many fantastic things that come with it as well, such as the memes. Crowdfunding and memes.

[A]

Oh, my God, the memes were phenomenal.

[B]

Yeah. They were so good.

[A]

We just sat there shrieking our way through that section of the thing.

[B]

They never grow old, do they? I was promised arugula and, like. Yeah, the thing of, like, people talking about the Internet as being like, oh, the Internet went crazier. The Internet. The Internet is made up of people.

[A]

And people thought many different things about it. Many of them thought it was quite funny because it. Well, I mean, it was funny. It was funny and also not funny. It could be both things at once. It was clearly an absolute tragedy for. I've actually completely forgotten the name of the island. Ex Something. Exuma. I think so. Yes. We think we've heard it twice. And I have a bad memory for names. Tragedy for that island and for the people living there. And quite hilarious for people who like memes about rich people getting cheese sandwiches.

[B]

What else did you write down in your book?

[A]

Great question. I wrote Javert Mindset.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Another unsung hero of this documentary was the man who, for no apparent reason, made it his mission.

[B]

No reason at all.

[A]

He just was like, I hate Billy and I will take him down and I was like, I like you. We would be friends.

[B]

He was the earliest. He literally. He was like some guy who just seems to know him professionally or maybe worked tangentially with him. And he was like, yeah, this seemed like pretty fishy to me. And whatever. It didn't seem like they had the infrastructure and whatever. They did some interesting crops on the website. It's like. So I flew to the island. I was like, that is the Javert mindset that we need to see more.

[A]

It was amazing the way he was just like, yeah, I want to understand.

[B]

All cults are bastards. Unless you're being Javert against Billy McFarlane.

[A]

I want the backstory of what went down between them that he had this big of a grudge because we really benefited from this grudge. Yeah, sizable grudge. I bet he was the one paying whoever was wiring the company meetings as well.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

He was a fully. He was fully the person who got the mole on the inside.

[B]

Yeah. Okay, so let me do a reverse personality test.

[A]

There is how trusting are you? Question.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is. So we know from the earlier test that I am highly trusting.

[A]

You're highly trusting.

[B]

But we know from your life that you are highly competent. And so if you were somehow found yourself as like a brand strategist, marketing planner, director or whatever for Billy McFarlane at Fyre Festival, you were hired. Okay, let's paint a picture.

[A]

We're obviously suspending disbelief because I've somehow taken this job.

[B]

Yeah, you've taken this job.

[A]

I've taken this job.

[B]

You were hired in 2015. You have since had a couple of promotions.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There are some problems with the app, but ultimately it's a cool app and.

[A]

A trying work environment as well.

[B]

It's a trying work environment. You live in New York. Let's say you're on a visa that's been sponsored by the company that's in jeopardy in there. And. And. And Billy comes to you saying, jen, we need you on PR team. For a while, you've been doing on this part of it, but now you're doing this part of it. And you're like, great pr. What do you need? And he's like, well, we're going to do a festival. And you're.

[A]

And you say, how are you doing that festival?

[B]

And he says, don't worry about it. What I need from you is some branding. What do you do then?

[A]

Oh, my God. What do I do then?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, it's actually interesting because I suppose 2017 me and 2024 me are different people in some way. So maybe 2017 me would be less of a jaded, cynical, calcified grump at work as I sometimes am. Although I'm actually quite happy and charming in my day to day life.

[B]

I love when you add like professional caveats.

[A]

I mean, genuinely, I think most people think I'm quite fun to work with, but I hope we'll find out. I now, now me, Jen, as per.

[B]

My email earlier, are you good to be on the brand planning team?

[A]

Billy, I have some significant concerns from what I've heard already from the team internally about this in Inverted Commas Fyre festival, specifically about the lack of infrastructure available to actually deliver the festival. I feel like I wouldn't be doing right by you as your brand strategist and now for some reason publicity head, if I were to not advise you to at least do some feasibility and logistics checks.

[B]

Jen, totally understand, totally understand your concerns, Jen. This is all in hand with our production team who are already on site on the island. What we need from you is just great ideas and an amazing brain of yours.

[A]

I would love, first of all, Billy, to do that. I would love to do that and I'm excited by this great opportunity to prove how much I enjoy working at this wonderful company fire. Obviously, as you know, the best branding and the best ideas comes from a deep product or service truth. And it would be really helpful for me if you could perhaps share some key proof points about what will be happening. So some specifics. I'd love to see some imagery. Who are the brands I'll be working with? Who are the sponsors on the ground?

[B]

Jen, let me interrupt you. I have Kendall Jenner on the line and she'd like to talk.

[A]

Do you really, Billy?

[B]

I do. She will be coming to the Bahamas. Would you like to come? Yes.

[A]

No, no, no. I would not let it come.

[B]

Really enjoying this role play of just bullying you.

[A]

I think shortly after this I go out with some friends and I say I think my job might be a scam for a money laundering fraudster. Even though my visa depends on it, I think I might have to quit my job. And they go, that's dumb. And I go, no, I think I'm right. And then I quit my job and I'm fine.

[B]

Wow, you have great faith in yourself.

[A]

I do have faith in myself. I trust my gut.

[B]

Good for you, man. I mean, it's been a short game of the game of Fire.

[A]

Yeah, listen, but I actually do think.

[B]

We have a good board game on our hands here.

[A]

I think we do. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

So in this brute rally, you are shipped back to the uk.

[A]

I'm shipped back to the uk. But then imagine how delighted I am when I see the headlines coming out of Fyre Festival.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And imagine how I then absolutely dine out on that story for months.

[B]

Would you. Okay. Would you allow yourself to be contacted for the Netflix documentary 100%?

[A]

Not only that, but they probably cut.

[B]

It because you got out so early. Whereas I would allow myself to be contacted for the Netflix documentary. But I would, like, get the whole thing because I was actually there because of my trusting mate.

[A]

What if? What if, because I thought that maybe some weird shit was going down, I. I don't know, downloaded all the files to Dropbox and all my emails.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

Because I feel like, one, I need to have a paper trail in case anything goes really badly wrong.

[B]

That's very you of you.

[A]

It is. And two, I just think there could be some hot tea in it later.

[B]

Have you done that with a client before?

[A]

No. You. Obviously, if you've got difficult things to say, you make sure it's an email so it can be found. But I've never been in a situation where I've been like, oh, this is so bad that we need. But. But I am telling. Telling you now that I would if I felt like there was going to be some. But also, I don't. I mean, I don't work for the. I don't work for those kind of shops.

[B]

No, that's true. Okay, well, lovely.

[A]

So basically, we discovered that I am incredibly untrusting and cynical and unswayed by.

[B]

Quote, unquote, charming ideators.

[A]

I think I've got an innate and deep seated distrust of authority. I meant. And indeed, again, like you, the thing which causes me trouble is also the thing that saves me. You know?

[B]

That's true.

[A]

There are plenty of opportunities where the fact that I am not like, yay, this is a great idea, does not work well for me. But there are also times when it does, and I think we've got to play to our strengths.

[B]

Satisfying. Maybe this is true of everyone.

[A]

Yeah, I think everyone's got that thing. That's why we're the pony and the terrier, you know, Like, I really don't like to be swayed by other people's opinions.

[B]

I think that's nice. It's strong.

[A]

No, I'm always worrying that I'm a terrible person and everyone hates me.

[B]

No, that's my job, though, to be.

[A]

Like, no, I think that's fine.

[B]

You escaped Billy's cult.

[A]

I escaped Billy's cult. I don't. Yeah. I really think I would escape Billy's cult.

[B]

Do you think the Fyre Festival workspace was a cult?

[A]

Yeah. Fully had all the energy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like he'll start saying family.

[B]

Bad times when people start referring to their colleagues or their family.

[A]

You can. You could also. I could just see the people scurrying around stairs. There were, like, videos of them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In the office. And it had. They were just that energy that, you know, is bad.

[B]

Awful.

[A]

But it is. It's that again. It's the sun cost fallacy. Like, if you haven't been paid, I can totally see it's very hard to walk from things.

[B]

Especially those, like, festival producers who, like, got most 70 of their fee on day one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They were supposed to.

[A]

Yeah. See, I've never worked for, like, a little tiny startup.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Mainly because I think you have to suspend disbelief and sort of get and sort of embrace cult.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. Yeah. I don't think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not for me. It's not for me, Caroline. It's not for you. Maybe you would actually.

[B]

Well, no, actually, because I was in a cult, actually.

[A]

As I said, I was like, oh, no.

[B]

And I did get out.

[A]

But you did walk away.

[B]

Well, yeah. We're talking about the pool dot com.

[A]

I know we are.

[B]

Yeah. Which for listeners.

[A]

Which is.

[B]

Which is a women's media website that I worked for for several years. And in many ways, you know, jump started my career and is part of the reason I was, like, you know, able to build a platform of readers, which is fantastic. They also scammed everybody out of their money, stopped paying people, and the lights were turned off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the. Yeah.

[A]

You cut your asses and walked.

[B]

I cut my asses and walked before it went that way. Because the vibe was turning.

[A]

See, actually, see, there is. There is a bit of that in.

[B]

You, too, once the vibe turns.

[A]

See.

[B]

But I was still freelancing for them, so I was two and a half grand in the hole.

[A]

Jesus.

[B]

But I know some people who are seven or eight grand in the hole, you know, so.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And none of the people who are responsible have ever really come to justice about it, and they sort of should. Yeah.

[A]

Well, so I feel like this has been actually a very revealing documentary for us both.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In terms of our personalities.

[B]

We've revealed more about ourselves.

[A]

Our personalities.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And my work prospects, which are probably even more greatly reduced than they were before.

[B]

You're not going anywhere.

[A]

Hire this disagreeable woman. She'll tell you you're Wrong.

[B]

Just. Billy. Billy McFarlane is going to reach out for Fyre Festival 2, and I think that's.

[A]

Do you mind if he did? Gosh, I'd have a lovely time. I really hope that. That.

[B]

Imagine if they had a podcasting tent and they invited us.

[A]

Okay. Would we go maybe?

[B]

Yeah, maybe it would, but.

[A]

But we'd go knowing full well what to expect. I think I feel like. Oh, the only other person I really wanted to mention, just briefly, I can't remember his name, but the one. The other good man in this documentary, that little. Little fucking Jen Zeda, who was 22, 23 years old.

[B]

Oh, I loved him.

[A]

He was left to book stuff and he was just like, this is nuts. They're in the toilets. And like, he clearly was in that mode of, when you are 22, 23, you've got nothing to lose, you haven't got life savings, you haven't got any other jobs. And. But he could clearly see it for what it was from the very beginning. And I admire that strength of character.

[B]

Yes, he had. He seemed to have a very. Yeah, I admired him too. And, like. But also, I think that what often happens to people at that age, which is that they're told that work can be hard and chaotic, particularly if it's hard, if it's, like, creative or, you know, attached to entertainment, and then they're expected to. They sort of take more than they should.

[A]

Yeah. But I think. I bet that that's been a real, like, tempering, like a sword in the fire moment for him. I think he'll go on to do great things. I have no idea in what small avenue. I don't think he'll become famous, but I think in whatever thing he does, the experience of Fyre Festival would have forged him like a fine steel blade.

[B]

And I think that's true of almost everybody on the documentary.

[A]

Well, not all.

[B]

Like, again, what makes it a compelling documentary and worth revisiting is that these people do seem very legitimately changed by the experience. Not in the sense that they're rocking back and forth in a dark and ruin. It's not like a cult thing where it's like, oh, these people's lives are fucked. It's more like it's kind of the thing you almost prefer to see in documentaries, which is like, they probably still have their family and their jobs and, like, things are different materially a little bit, but mostly it's something of happening inside.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I feel like we really got an insight into.

[A]

They went into the fire.

[B]

Yeah, they went to the fire, the carrots. Deal.

[A]

And to kind of return to your beautiful metaphor from the beginning of this podcast of the rabid dog in the distance running towards you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then running past. This is a story of rabid dog runs right into you and licks you in the face.

[B]

Yeah. Knocks you over.

[A]

And there's something just quite.

[B]

And the owner of the dog is like. He's really petty worry.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, listen, I have newfound respect for anyone who puts on a festival.

[B]

Yeah. Hope I wasn't talking about wilderness earlier on, because I really had a great time.

[A]

I had a great time and I already had quite a lot of respect. People with festivals on. But now I'm like, you know, it really is a hard job. And they did a great. They did a great one. And I loved all the orange ones.

[B]

It was such a good time.

[A]

It was a good time, wasn't it? Let's do it again sometime, right?

[B]

Okay. Bye, everyone.

[A]

Bye. Did you know that two out of three listeners say podcasts are the best way to learn about the things they care about most. That makes podcasts the perfect place to introduce your brand, where ads are more.

[B]

Relevant and trusted than any other media channel.

[A]

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