Continental Garbage: The Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants

Summary

Sentimental Garbage: Continental Garbage Episode Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: Sentimental Garbage
• Host: Caroline O'Donoghue (Justice for Dumb Women)
• Episode: Continental Garbage: The Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants
• Release Date: August 22, 2024

Overview: In this episode of Sentimental Garbage, hosts Caroline O'Donoghue and Jen County delve into the multifaceted narrative of The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, with a particular focus on Blake Lively's character and the underlying themes of statutory rape portrayed in the film. The discussion navigates through nostalgic reflections, critical analyses of character portrayals, and the broader societal implications of such representations.

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Caroline opens the episode by setting the stage for a deep dive into The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, highlighting both its nostalgic charm and the darker themes that may not be immediately apparent to all viewers.

Caroline [00:31]: "We're covering the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, which is obviously such an iconic and nostalgic view for so many people... but there are some dark themes in it that certainly took me and Jen by surprise."

She warns listeners about the sensitive nature of the discussion, particularly around Blake Lively's storyline, ensuring that the conversation remains respectful and mindful of those who might have experienced similar issues.

Caroline [01:10]: "I don't want to give anyone a jump scare because an alarming amount of women experience relationships like this as young women."

2. Internet Backlash Against Blake Lively

The conversation shifts to the unexpected internet backlash Blake Lively faced around the time of the episode's airing. Caroline expresses confusion and frustration over the sudden negativity directed at Lively, contrasting it with her previously admired public persona.

Caroline [03:08]: "The entire Internet hated Blake Lively. No, no. The Internet was arguing about her... look at this bitch. Look at this dumb, horrible, mean bitch."

Jen provides a humorous analogy comparing the backlash to the creation of an "anti Blake Lively army," suggesting that societal sentiments have shifted dramatically.

Jen [04:25]: "We're seeing potentially almost a bit of referred pain here as well... but Blake Lively is very much in the firing line."

3. Critical Analysis of Blake Lively's Character

Caroline and Jen dissect Blake Lively's portrayal in the film, emphasizing the problematic aspects of her character's relationships and actions. They draw parallels to literary works like Lolita and films such as American Beauty to illustrate their points.

Caroline [04:32]: "It feels like that, unbeknownst to me, for many years that we have been creating an anti Blake Lively army..."

Jen [06:07]: "She has a best foot forward... Let's not make this an issues movie. That way no one will see it."

The hosts discuss how Blake Lively's character, Bridget, embodies a mix of vulnerability and overt sexualization, creating an uncomfortable dynamic that raises questions about consent and agency.

Caroline [06:37]: "Her mother has died of suicide... she's channeling all of her bad emotions into physical exercise... it's a very strange Lolita storyline."

4. Examination of Other Storylines Within the Movie

The episode doesn't solely focus on Lively's character; the hosts also explore the various intertwined storylines of the four girls in the film. They critique each subplot, assessing their depth and execution.

a. Lena's Greek Adventure

Jen [32:28]: "Lena in Greece... a Hallmark movie... Costas, as all fake Greek men in films set in Greece are."

Both hosts find Lena's storyline the least compelling, citing its clichéd elements and lack of genuine conflict.

b. Tibby's Dying Child

Caroline [46:26]: "Dying child and family estrangement as the real gift of the traveling parents."

Jen criticizes the portrayal of Tibby's relationship with the terminally ill child, Bailey, highlighting the unrealistic behaviors and casting choices that detract from the emotional impact.

Jen [54:08]: "She's sort of a lovely comfort cushion around the edges... but her performance is great."

c. Carmen's West Wing Father

Caroline [84:04]: "Weak man with the hair of a weak man... He's not helping at all."

The hosts commend Carmen's storyline as the most dramatic and psychologically engaging, though they note flaws in the depiction of her father and the lack of resolution.

Caroline [85:07]: "Carmen's story is really dramatic and really good... feels like 'Get Out.'"

5. The Symbolism of the Traveling Pants

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the magical jeans central to the film's plot. Caroline and Jen debate whether the pants are a force for good or a cursed artifact, likening them to a modern-day "monkey's paw."

Jen [57:01]: "I do think there's a monkey's paw going on here... These pants have also been around for a long time."

They explore the pants' dual role in bringing both fortune and misfortune to the wearers, questioning their true nature and origin.

6. Societal Reflections and Broader Implications

The hosts extend their analysis beyond the film, commenting on the societal obsession with body image, the portrayal of young women in media, and the cyclical nature of online harassment.

Caroline [89:20]: "Can you imagine? You're sitting there and you think, magic trousers... it's amazing."

They draw connections between the film's themes and contemporary issues, such as the rise of weight-loss drugs and the persistent standards of beauty imposed on women.

7. Concluding Thoughts

Caroline and Jen wrap up the episode by reaffirming their nuanced view of Blake Lively, defending her against the rampant online criticism while acknowledging the film's flawed portrayals. They encourage listeners to reflect on how media representations impact real-life perceptions and relationships.

Jen [105:31]: "I'm not going to come down hard as an apologist, but... there are bigger fish to fry than Blake."

Caroline [106:51]: "Be nice to Blake Lively. She's just like us."

They conclude with a light-hearted note, emphasizing solidarity with listeners who might feel the pressure of societal expectations.

Caroline [106:50]: "Bye. Be nice to Blake. She's just like us."

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Notable Quotes:

• Caroline [00:31]: "But it's such a kind of a fun and nostalgic movie that I think sometimes we forget that there are some dark themes in it that certainly took me and Jen by surprise."

• Jen [04:25]: "You can get to one of her lieutenants."

• Caroline [46:57]: "She will never meet and he just..."

• Jen [54:08]: "I just think she could have been better."

• Caroline [85:07]: "Carmen's story is really dramatic and really good... but it was like this dark, dark opening."

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Conclusion: In this episode, Sentimental Garbage offers a critical yet empathetic examination of The Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, particularly scrutinizing Blake Lively's character and the film's handling of sensitive themes. Through engaging dialogue and thoughtful analysis, Caroline and Jen encourage listeners to rethink their perceptions of beloved cultural artifacts and the individuals associated with them.

Transcript

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[Caroline]

Hi everybody. Just me here giving you a quick heads up before we get into this week's episode. As you'll see, we're covering the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, which is obviously such an iconic and nostalgic view for so many people, and we have a great time talking about it. But it's such a kind of a fun and nostalgic movie that I think sometimes we forget that there are some dark themes in it that certainly took me and Jen by surprise and that we get into in this episode specifically, I'm talking about Blake Lively storyline and the themes around statutory rape therein. And I feel like we do a good job of talking about, you know, the gulf between how women often experience that relationship versus how the movie chooses to portray it, which sometimes feels like it's very like Lolita ish in its portrayal. And we do have a complicated conversation about the nuances. It may not be for you today, and I just wanted to be conscious that I don't want to give anyone a jump scare because an alarming amount of women experience relationships like this as young women. I didn't want to take you there if you don't want to go there today. We keep a light sort of tone throughout. There's a lot of laughing, but like I, you know, we just wanted to keep it light because it is the sister of the Traveling Pants. And ultimately we didn't want to get too bogged down in huge conversations. But yeah, that's just my heads up. I think it's a really interesting discussion. We had a really good time talking about Blake Lively et al. So have a good week, have a good episode and remember that Blake Lively is a person too. And that's it, I think. Okay, bye. Hello and welcome to Continental Garbage, the podcast where we all magically fit into the same pair of jeans, even Silph. My name is Caroline, and I'm strangely defensive over the recent charges against Blake Lively. Joining me is someone who's still mostly on the fence. It's Jen County.

[Jen]

That's an amazingly just accurate opener. That's a real, like, news Round opener for Continental Garbage. I normally just, like, brace myself for some real mad shit.

[Caroline]

It's a real question time intro.

[Jen]

It is a question time intro. Cause that's basically. This is.

[Caroline]

That's what brought us to bring this movie this year.

[Jen]

This is a real panorama moment for content, for garbage.

[Caroline]

You know what? If you're listening out of time, if this is the near future, first of all, hello.

[Jen]

Hi.

[Caroline]

I hope the election went well in America, but there was.

[Jen]

I hope we still have a planet to live on.

[Caroline]

I hope we still have a planet to live on. But there was a time in August 2024 where the entire Internet hated Blake Lively. No, no.

[Jen]

The Internet was arguing about her. They don't hate her yet. I don't think.

[Caroline]

I don't think anyone's arguing for me in my version of the Internet. Everyone's just being like, look at this bitch. Look at this dumb, horrible, mean bitch. And it's so strange because I feel like for so many years, Blake Lively was like. She was obviously in Gossip Girl. She was iconic in that. She was in teen movies such as the one we're about to watch tonight. And she was Taylor Swift's best friend and she was Ryan Reynolds wife and mother of his children. And she wasn't doing a whole lot. And so for that reason, people were just like, what a nice lady with nice hair.

[Jen]

She does have nice hair.

[Caroline]

And now, okay, I'm not saying she hasn't behaved impeccably. I'm not saying she's. Sorry. I'm not. I'm not saying she's behaved impeccably. But I feel like what the mood online has been for me over the last couple of weeks has been as if. You know that scene in Lord of the Rings where in Mordor, Sauron is creating new warriors out of, like, molding. Molding new Orc.

[Jen]

The Uru.

[Caroline]

The Uruk.

[Jen]

Ha. I believe it's Sarumon.

[Caroline]

It's as if for years. Saruman. Sorry. I'm very sorry. Saruman and Sauron are very similar, and they put them on the same side of the same war.

[Jen]

They do. Stupid.

[Caroline]

So that was confusing for Tolkien to do that. But yeah, you know what I'm saying?

[Jen]

The wizard guy, the bad wizard, has. Yeah, he's been creating the Uruk Hai and they've been coming out of the womb of the Earth and he's planting his white hand upon their brows.

[Caroline]

It feels like that, unbeknownst to me, for many years that we have been creating an anti Blake Lively army that has been like, it's like they've been manifold and they have been strong and mutant and they have been born from the pits of the Earth. And for years the bad wizard has been keeping his arm back, being like, no, not yet, not yet, not yet, not yet.

[Jen]

Now, when it could finally turn the tides of battle, that's when I shall release my secret army.

[Caroline]

That's exactly what's happened. He's like, no, it ends with this marketing campaign. I just don't think it's fair.

[Jen]

No, I don't think it's fair. And I think we're seeing potentially almost. And I know that, you know, we do talk about our dear friend Taylor Swift a lot, but almost a potential bit of referred pain here as well, do you think? Because obviously our friend Taylor's had this experience happen to her before where the manifold armies of Saruman have risen from the earth and caught her a snake. And right now she's sort of still a little bit untouchable. But Blake Lively is very much in the firing line.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

You can't quite get to the Queen, but you can get to one of her lieutenants. You know what I mean?

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

A known lieutenant of Swift is Blake Lively, which is exposing her in a way that she might not otherwise be. I don't love her. I don't really love a pylon on a woman on the Internet or really. Well, I love a pile on like Elon Musk. You know what I mean?

[Caroline]

I love an Elon pylon.

[Jen]

Absolutely. Andrew Tate. Delicious. Take it. But yeah, just a lady who does films and does not really pretend to be anything other than a pretty lady who does films. Yeah, a little bit off. However, I'm not, not, not a sympathizer to the anti Blake cause. Do the vitriol, the depth of disgust. Perhaps not, but she has made some missteps that I think are interesting to discuss and I'm sure we will.

[Caroline]

It reminds me of a little bit.

[Jen]

Crying celeb's in a bit of a funny mood. She can't decide which side she sits on. But I'm sure she will after this spirited debate.

[Caroline]

I'm sure she will take a side.

[Jen]

And the who she sits closest to.

[Caroline]

I guess I remember when I was talking to Gav about when the Amber heard Johnny Depp thing was happening and he said, he said something I always think about. He was like, it's not that, you know, there aren't points being made on either side or whatever about like the specific cases of the legitimacy around things she said. Things he's done or whatever those are nuanced, strange, manifold, whatever. He was like, the thing that freaks me out is how many men I'm talking to who seem like they're really delighted in taking their belt off and really taking it to a woman in public. And it's like, it's that energy that's scary.

[Jen]

Do you think we're getting that? Is it because I'm getting a little.

[Caroline]

Bit, like, it doesn't feel good to take our belt off, you know? And that freaks me out. Whenever I see that happening online. It freaks me out a little bit.

[Jen]

Yeah. Do we think if I were to diagnose it a little bit.

[Caroline]

So. So for people who have been out of the loop on Blake Lively. Can you summarize?

[Jen]

To summarize, Blake Lively is currently starring in a movie. It Ends With Us.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

Which is an adaptation of a very popular novel by Colleen Hoover. And there has been ample suggestion that there's been a division on set between her, the executive producer and co star with her other co star, the director Justin Baldoni, and a falling out, which has not been spoken about, named, given any kind of specific shape or texture other than what Internet sleuths have looked at. But the prevailing wisdom and the prevailing theory is that he took on this project as a way to shine a light on domestic violence, a massive problem in many countries, including the U.S. and she took it on because she liked pretty dresses and wanted to sell her hair care brand. And there's a sense that she's potentially using the film, which is a massive career opportunity for her to not properly address the key theme of it. And she's being like, take your girlfriends to the movies and red flowers and have pretty hair. But not really in any way engaging with the issue of domestic violence. And I think there are many ways to look at that. But as far as I understand it, that's the main beef, is she's not taking this thing seriously enough.

[Caroline]

And these ashes were kind of smouldering in the grate. And then what has doused Petrel on it is that there is a Scandinavian interviewer was like, while we're all talking shit about Break Lively, here's something that made me want to quit journalism. And then she put a thing. It was years ago. It was during the promotional tour for Cafe Society. Have you seen this?

[Jen]

I have seen. Seen it. And I have to say, it doesn't look great for Break Lively on that particular interview.

[Caroline]

I'm a little sympathetic. A little.

[Jen]

Okay, tell me how. So for context, those who haven't seen it. The interviewer starts the interview and I think this is. This is not even the kind of full filmed interview. This is the raw footage. And she says, and Blake is visibly pregnant and obviously has announced her pregnancy at this point because, you know, and she just goes, oh, first of all, congratulations on your. Your little bump.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And Blake just goes, oh, congrats on your little bump. And then there's quite a weird bit with her co star.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Someone whose name I've forgotten about. Lovely lady.

[Caroline]

It was Parker Posey, I believe. Yes.

[Jen]

And it is uncomfortable watching. It's uncomfortable watching the Swedish interview. It's uncomfortable watching the. The whole energy and like, I've never been a pregnant woman. I don't know what it feels like. I'm sure you'll probably get really bored, people commenting on your. On your bump. But also you're an A list holiday, an A list Hollywood celebrity, and you probably by this point know that's gonna happen. And the easy answer is, thank you so much. On we go type thing.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

It's a graceless moment that's captured on camera.

[Caroline]

Yes. And then she goes on to say something about. The interviewer says something about like, oh, the costumes in this film are magnificent or something.

[Jen]

Which is a period drama.

[Caroline]

Which is a period drama.

[Jen]

And then Blake immediately goes, we wouldn't ask the men that. It felt like she was trying to jump on the bandwag. You wouldn't ask men about dieting. But kind of doesn't make sense because it's a period drama and it's quite normal talk about costume in that.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

She feels like she's been rubbed up the wrong way and she's looking for a fight and she's finding.

[Caroline]

And then her and Parker Posey continue to sort of have a conversation as if the interviewer isn't there.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And I can totally sympathize with the interviewer of being like, if I were that her, I'd be like, I want to die right now.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Sucks. And it's like, yes. And it's always that uncomfortable relationship between journalist and interviewer in that. And I've been literally, you can find the YouTube footage online of me as like a twerpy little twenty something journalist junket talking to celebrities in a way that is like I could be a fucking piece of cardboard with googly eyes on it. You know what I mean? And it's so. It's so horrible when you do those things because, you know, they have all the hair and makeup and stuff and generally when you, when they cut those interviews, they are just cutting to the actor and they don't cut to the person who's asking the questions. And they have all the hair and makeup, they have the amazing lighting. They look like they have just been birthed from the gods. And I look like I am in the Soviet Union. This is not being made before this. Like, if you want to, if you want to find evidence of what I'm talking about, Search the pool meets ava Green into YouTube.

[Jen]

You know what? I'm gonna.

[Caroline]

You can see 25 year old me in bad spec sabers, glasses and lumpy cerulean dress.

[Jen]

Lovely.

[Caroline]

Talking to Eva Green, who looks like, you know, she's one of God's tears. And I have so much sympathy with actors who go through that because the, the experience of being on the other side of it is that you were taken down a series of hallways to what feels like a pen. Like you are. You were visiting a zoo and the zoo animal is a human being who's been sitting in hair and makeup and who has to reset their charisma levels every 10 minutes for a new person from a new publication that you've never heard of. And I just, I remember being ejected from a couple of situations, being like, I feel as though I have been performing in a. Like a sort of a strange comic book sketch of what human interaction is supposed to be like. To even make those situations look organic, feels crazy.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so I will never judge any bit of celebrity footage I ever see that I shot in that type of situation. That feels weird.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I will never judge because I was like, that happened in a weird situation. It doesn't count. Here's the real thing that I'm.

[Jen]

I can imagine being really ratty in that situation. Yeah. And I imagine there's probably no celebrity on this earth who, if you really wanted to find receipts for them, being a bit of a prick on camera.

[Caroline]

Yeah. On one of those junkie days.

[Jen]

On one of those days. I'm sure they've all had those moments and it's. And I'm sure there are also people, as we often hear, you know, through the rumor mill.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Who are not just like a common or garden ratty, but are actively.

[Caroline]

And also imagine all those. All those things I just imagined I just described with blank. Being treated like a zoo animal, being kept in, penned in like done like powdered and re. Lip glossed every 20 minutes or whatever and relit and all that. And you're pregnant.

[Jen]

Yeah. I mean, like, I'm completely with you. I feel like she could have been. She could have been better. But obviously, probably that day she could not have been better.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Maybe that day she couldn't have been better.

[Jen]

She could not. That was the best she could muster that day. And it sat in the archives for eight years until now.

[Caroline]

Exactly. And with that. And we just miss all the thousand and one interactions where she was pleasant. You know, those don't get. You know.

[Jen]

But she has also been a bit rashy a few times in the recent tour as well. And I think. I think this is. I think where the kind of. Where the no Smoke Without Fire comes in is that clearly this is not a. That wasn't a one off. There's a bit of a pattern of her not being the most accommodating, generous and giving of celebrities, which doesn't need to be because she's extremely famous.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And right now people are like, here are the times when Blake Lively hasn't been great.

[Caroline]

Yes. Okay, That I get. I. If she's a fucking big cunt, fine.

[Jen]

And the thing is, she may well be. You can do that and still be good at your job.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you can do it. Still be good at your job or whatever. But I also think that we're in a place at the moment where if she's the biggest bitch ever.

[Jen]

No, I don't think she is.

[Caroline]

And mean to everybody, which I don't think she is. I don't think the punishment fits the crime right now.

[Jen]

No.

[Caroline]

Of everybody. But here's the other thing I really wanted to talk about because I find it so interesting, which is that ever since the Don't Worry, darling.

[Jen]

Oh, we've all been gagging for a new one.

[Caroline]

Exactly.

[Jen]

I found myself watching the Spit or Not spit video probably 20 times.

[Caroline]

Spit or Not Spit.

[Jen]

The one where Harry Styles maybe spits on Chris Pine.

[Caroline]

Have you seen that video?

[Jen]

I think I watched it and I feel like I watched it 20 times and watched each person's facial reaction. Different way to be. Like, what the fuck did happen? It was juicy.

[Caroline]

It was really juicy.

[Jen]

Didn't want that again.

[Caroline]

70,000, of course. And like, when it devolved into Olivia Wilde leaving her fucking husband, Shia LaBeouf.

[Jen]

The Shia LaBeouf moment.

[Caroline]

Yes. Oh, it was so many. Staged in its glory.

[Jen]

It was beautiful.

[Caroline]

And also, I think, what part of that was that? It was like a lot of very golden people. Like Florence Pugh, Britain, sweetheart.

[Jen]

We've even talked about Florence Pugh on this podcast and her behaviour in Don't Worry, Darling.

[Caroline]

Yeah, we did. Yeah.

[Jen]

And I was like, I'm not sure she's great. I think I went down the side of no, no Florence for Flo. No to float.

[Caroline]

No to float.

[Jen]

But I have no real feelings on her now. But at the time, I was like, not classy, but you.

[Caroline]

She. But she was a real Britain sweetheart. So was Harry Styles. Olivia Wylde had that big moment with Booksmart and everything. It was like a lot of people's first time putting a foot wrong. And it was so catastrophic.

[Jen]

All kind of put. Maybe the only person didn't was Chris Pine. Actually, I think he kind of no.

[Caroline]

Because Chris Pine is a professional.

[Jen]

He just absolutely sailed through. And in fact, when you watch that video, the Spit or Not Spit video, I'm curious to know whether you think there was a spit or not. The only person who comes out of it well is Chris Pine because he's just like, clapping, clapping, clapping. He looks down at his hands or lap and does this little face, like, really? And then he just turns to Harry Styles and smiles and continues on. And he's just sort of sailed on. Like, Harry Styles is doing a very clear, like, I hate you face, unfortunately. Hard to tell if it's at Chris Pine or at Olivia Wilde. We're not sure. Olivia Wilde is just like, I want to sink into the earth. And Chris Pine is just this little golden man, just like, tootling through the middle of the night.

[Caroline]

Can we have a moment for Chris Pine while we're here?

[Jen]

Let's have a moment for Chris Pine. One of my favorites of the Chrises, I would say.

[Caroline]

I have always said my favorite of the Chrises.

[Jen]

I think the superior Chris.

[Caroline]

I think he will snap.

[Jen]

The thinking woman's Chris.

[Caroline]

The thinking woman's Chris. Because, you know, I love about Chris Pine. Chris Pine's been around forever and he's always. Silva's wagging so hard on Chris Pine.

[Jen]

Is he your favorite Chris?

[Caroline]

He's everyone's favorite Chris in this movie.

[Jen]

She sort of leant, like, lasciviously against the sofa at the thought of him.

[Caroline]

Pressing her body against the cushions, staring.

[Jen]

Deeply into my eyes, maybe whining a little.

[Caroline]

He's been around for so much longer than the other Chrises. He's actually. He carbon dates far older than the other Chrises.

[Jen]

Many other Chrises.

[Caroline]

He does. He's been around for a long time. He has a little moment every few years. He handles it beautifully. There's lots of range in those moments. He was into the woods. He had his Marvel moment. He had, like, this great drama that was about Like Texan bank robbers that I saw. I can't remember what it was called, but it was really, it was like a serious drama. Everything he does, he's good at. He's always nice and I feel like he's going to be one of those like Sean Connery type actors that will only fully appreciate his range once he is gray.

[Jen]

I mean, he's going grey now.

[Caroline]

Yeah. But once he's real old.

[Jen]

Yeah. No, I think he's got a long career ahead of him.

[Caroline]

Everyone watch out for that Chris Pine. You heard it first on Continental Garbage.

[Jen]

No one's really said it before, but Chris Pine, hidden gem of Hollywood. Yeah. I think he's doing marvelously.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I've got so much support in my heart for Chris Pine.

[Jen]

He came out of that well. I think Florence Pugh, I think she's off the boil a little bit now. I think, I think, I don't think that helped her star. She's still obviously a fantastically talented actress.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

But I think that moment was a bit a weird one for her. Olivia Wilde. I don't see her so much. Harry Styles. Harry Styles.

[Caroline]

Harry Styles will be Harry Styles forever.

[Jen]

But what's he doing right now other than visiting my dreams? Sorry, that's such an in joke. Weirdly, I regularly dream about Harry Styles, a man who I do not know and have no thoughts about my waking life.

[Caroline]

Yeah, and he just comes to you in dream time?

[Jen]

He comes and I'm always just like, why are you here, Harry?

[Caroline]

And the answer is to fuck you, Jem. So many people would pay so much money for you to have like invasive sexual dreams by Harry Styles and you don't even want them and you have them.

[Jen]

I literally went off and I'm like, not again.

[Caroline]

No. We shared a bed for three weeks and you were like woke up to creamed knickers about Harry Styles again. Bang.

[Jen]

I just feel like Harry visited me again last night and I don't know, I can't make him stop. That's my great confession. I now know that someone from my HR department listens to this podcast. So that's great little sharing, but yeah. A weird thing about me as someone who never thinks about Harry Styles in my day to day life is that my subconscious mind makes him the avatar of just men in general. It just goes, oh, just choose a random Ur man who can just be your sexual partner in dreams. And it goes, that'll do.

[Caroline]

I love how basic your subconscious is.

[Jen]

Right. My subconscious is the subconscious of a 15 year old girl 10 years ago, and I was not 15, 10 years ago. And I was never a one directioner and if you genuinely. I don't think he's that fit.

[Caroline]

No, I mean, I'm not saying I.

[Jen]

Wouldn'T because obviously it's how he styles, but it's not for me.

[Caroline]

So I think because the don't worry, darling, press tour was such a rich and fruitful time for gossip. And we would love to get that back.

[Jen]

We would.

[Caroline]

But these things don't grow on trees. And so I feel like people are trying to really make something out of the it ends with us press tour that isn't there and feel kind of unfair. And I think, here's my big sort of thing. Take that I have. Now, I didn't read that Colleen Hoover book, but I do know that it was enormous TikTok sensation. And yes, it's a book about domestic violence, but it's a very pulpy book and I love pulpy book violence the.

[Jen]

Way that 50 Shades is a book about BDSM community. Say it's not.

[Caroline]

It's a very mainstream text for that reason. It is getting a very mainstream movie release. It is on the shoulders of people. And even, even we are in a really weird climate for going to the movies at the moment. It is no guarantee anyone will ever go, not like they did 10 years ago or 20 years ago. It's on the shoulders of producers and directors to make sure people go see the movie. And like, you know, Blake Lively is the star and executive producer, and she must therefore have a best foot forward. Let's not. And I'm sure she was briefed by an independent PR company being like, let's not make this an issues movie. That way no one will see it. So, like, make sure that everyone understands that this was a viral book. It is a moment for the people who have read that book and maybe the people who haven't to see that movie together. It's a cultural moment. It is not just about domestic violence. And we know that that works because, like, Thelma and Louise is a movie about domestic violence. Is it spoken about that way? No, it's spoken about in a way. People remember it as like a movie where two amazing women go on a caper across the country, they die to the police, and Brad Pitt gets his kit off. And like, that doesn't do anything to lessen the power of the moments of domestic violence in. But I do think film works best and culture works best when issues are piggybacked or sneaked in because it's like when you're not expecting things, it's when they affect you the most. So I don't think it's like, actually that inappropriate.

[Jen]

No, I don't think she's done anything particularly wrong other than being maybe a little bit tone deaf and come across a little bit kind of, sort of. And I think I've seen this criticism and I can see where it's coming from. A kind of like cheerleader in high school who hasn't really had any problems. Yes.

[Caroline]

Because she looks like that.

[Jen]

So she looks like that. And she's also being very like, la, la, la, la, la. Flowers and hair care.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

What I do think. And I've also not read this book, but I suspect, deep in my soul, this book is the worst book that's ever been written. I do suspect that. And I could say that because I've not written fiction, I say it partly because I have read about it and partly because I've definitely seen people now posting excerpts of it on the Internet.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Jen]

And I've been like, oh, no, oh no, oh no. And I know probably people who are listening will really love this book and I hope you find. Join it. I think I might hate it and I'm not going to read it because I think genuinely I would. I would loathe it. And I think one of the wonderful things about books is they're not for everybody. Not everybody has to like the same books. I was a bookseller for many years and.

[Caroline]

And enough people liked this book that you can just say, like, I don't want to fucking do.

[Jen]

Totally. Like, I worked for years. I was. I was a book selling at the height of Twilight. And people come into my bookshop. Not that I owned it, but I worked there. Be like, have you read Twilight? And I'd be like, yeah, did you love it? And I'd be like, no. But that was fine because they did. And I could help them find other stuff like it. But I do sort of wonder if part of the annoyance at Blake Lively and part of the kind of pile on is actually just people who hated that book who want to have a reason to express that out loud. And it's much more easy to hate a book when it is successful, when it is as successful as this one has been, and sometimes it feels good. Sold more copies than the Bible in one year, I believe. Like, it's like one year.

[Caroline]

I mean, yeah, Bible's been out for a long time.

[Jen]

It's been around for a while.

[Caroline]

If you're gonna buy the Bible, you Have it already.

[Jen]

But there are a lot of people out there who are gonna be really shitty about how well this book has done.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Because it is, by a lot of people's standards, not a great book. And that's got to be annoying. And I sort of wonder if a little bit people are going, People weren't listening when I said I hated Colleen Hoover's. It ends with us. So now I'm just gonna talk about how much I hate Blake Lively instead. There's a bit more pickup on that, you know?

[Caroline]

Yeah, Yeah. A little bit of. If you've been. Because this book's been out for a few years, and if you've been hating it for a while, to watch the movie press sort of crash and burn.

[Jen]

Perfect opportunity to just get in there and go, I actually loathe this book.

[Caroline]

And you know what? I'm not gonna take away people's communal hating from them. That's fine.

[Jen]

There's also something very joyful about communal hatred.

[Caroline]

It's lovely. Like, right now, we've got fire festival moment for a book. Amazing.

[Jen]

The warm front of Colleen Hoover lovers and the cold front of Colleen Hoover haters meeting in a giant media storm.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God.

[Jen]

And Blake Lively is right there in the middle of it.

[Caroline]

You're so correct. Because it is like that meme when all the hands of different races are shaking hands, where it's like the people who loved the book and feel like it's not being dealt with seriously enough are pissed. And the people who hated the book and love to see it crash and burn are overjoyed and pissed, and they're.

[Jen]

All together being like, whoa. And Blake Liver just happens to be the meeting point, the intersection of both those things, because she's the person who's out there fronting it, most obviously. And whether you love this book or. Or whether you hate it, there's something probably delightful to be had about watching this press tour.

[Caroline]

Yeah. God, I'm so glad we got to the bottom of this.

[Jen]

Yeah. So I'm. I'm. You know what? I've haven't been on the fence. I'm going. Yeah, I'm going. Blake Lively hasn't done anything particularly wrong.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Except for I've been a bit of a. Some days at her job.

[Jen]

Aren't we all?

[Caroline]

Let he who crashed the first stone.

[Jen]

Let she who has a house not made of glass be a glass woman. Like, if.

[Caroline]

That's all I'm saying.

[Jen]

If we're all gonna be crucified for having sometimes been a bitch at work. Then fuck it. We're like, et tu, Brutus? Et tu, Brutus is not the word.

[Caroline]

We all know what you mean.

[Jen]

You know what I mean. I'm standing up and I'm like, I, Blake Lively, have also been bad at work times.

[Caroline]

And so today feels like a good day to be like, let's remember the things Blake Lively has brought us. For example, the Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants. And also, I mean, we're actually breaking a rule on this podcast.

[Jen]

I mean, it's your rule. Tell me about your rule.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I'm acting like you came up with a rule.

[Jen]

I would flout this rule all over the shop if I could.

[Caroline]

Yes. Is that like I. Wherever possible, in general, when you and also other guests. I have said up top. Unless it's an exception or it feels very relevant to the moment. No kid stuff. I don't want to talk about.

[Jen]

This is your first kid stuff.

[Caroline]

No. We've had a couple of things in the past where it's felt relevant, but in general, I think no kid, which I mean, no content that was, you know, made specifically for children. And here's why. First of all, I think that, like, it's, you know, say, for example, if we were to do an episode on the Parent Trap, we would spend a third of the episode talking about, like, how weird it is as the concept.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And that is because it's for children. It's for children. Children are need high concept stuff. Sure. And like, that to me is boring. Also, I'm so conscious, like, sentimental garbage. To me, it's like, this is a woman's space where we talk about things that apply to women. I don't really want to be sitting around talking about, like, when I was 8, when I was 9. And also, if I want to be bitchy about performances, about, like, how things are dealt with, all that. I don't want to be criticizing children. I don't want to be criticizing things that are made for them or their performances. And I also don't want to shit on anybody's nostalgia. Something was important to them and it's just like. So I don't do it.

[Jen]

Well. This feels like a safe space because I have seen this film many years ago, but I have great affection for it.

[Caroline]

I have great passion for it, too.

[Jen]

It's quite old now, so everyone in it is a grown up.

[Caroline]

Exactly. And I also think that it is, you know, more of a coming of age movie. It's about kids.

[Jen]

They must have been in their late teens, early 20s when they were filming it. So, yeah, it feels, it feels acceptable and safe and easier than watching all however many episodes of Gossip Girl there are.

[Caroline]

Exactly.

[Jen]

To reminisce on Blake Lively's early, early years.

[Caroline]

Early years. And I also think that like, you know, this was like, definitely like, for example, something like bring it on that stars sort of 17 year olds.

[Jen]

Are we calling that a kids movie now?

[Caroline]

Well, that's the thing. So it's like the characters are probably around the same age. Characters around the same age as this. But I feel like that's a very broad church who that movie was made for. It was very. Made for a very general audience.

[Jen]

But this is made for teenage girls.

[Caroline]

This is about 17 year olds made for 12 year olds. I think it's that classic thing of like kids aged up kind of thing. Girls always looked the category above them.

[Jen]

Yep, yep. Yeah, I'm excited to re watch it.

[Caroline]

The postcard this week is really all just preamble.

[Jen]

It is, as I say, it's panorama, continental, garbage dial. And we've made our finding that Blake Lively is actually innocent. And it's just that people.

[Caroline]

She's not innocent of being a bitch.

[Jen]

But she is innocent of any like, wider huge crimes against the world in general. And it's really just that people have a lot of opinions about Colleen Hoover and possibly Taylor Swift, and that's what she's been caught up in.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Our sympathies lie with you, Blake.

[Caroline]

I think it's important to say.

[Jen]

I think it is. We'll be the one lone bastion on the Internet and he will be on our side.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And I just wanted to go out as a general, you know, bulletin to the podcast if you are being a bit of a bitch at your job. Some days. We are on your side.

[Jen]

We are so on your side. Because we are often a little bit of a bitch at our jobs.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Anyway, let's watch the movie.

[Jen]

Let's watch it.

[Caroline]

Bye.

[Mark]

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[Caroline]

Well, well, well, well. Four very different girls, four very different tales. Four very different genres of movies.

[Jen]

So different all mixed together.

[Caroline]

And some of those movies became different movies over the Scope of their movie.

[Jen]

Each of those movies could have been its own movie. And within each movie, there are other movies. Each movie contains many, many, many, many movies.

[Caroline]

Let's summarize each of the movies that exist within this one movie first.

[Jen]

Okay, which movie are we starting with?

[Caroline]

How about you go. You rank your storylines of the sisterhood.

[Jen]

Of the traveling pals, as in from. From least good to best good.

[Caroline]

From. Yeah, sure.

[Jen]

For me, the least good. Oh, it's probably Lena in Greece.

[Caroline]

Do you know what? I agree.

[Jen]

And I love she's. I love that she's in there because it gives us the ability to talk about it on Continental garbage.

[Caroline]

Because she's on the continent.

[Jen]

She's gone to Santorini. Yeah, but it's. It's a Hallmark movie.

[Caroline]

Yes, it's a Hallmark movie.

[Jen]

And I.

[Caroline]

You know, it's a classic girl goes abroad Hallmark movie. It's.

[Jen]

It's a Christmas prince, except this is a Greek prince and he's called Costas, as all fake Greek men in films set in Greece are. And it's, of course, a reference to Shirley Valentine, where another man who's not Greek, Tom Conti, plays a Greek man called Costas.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

And in this, it's.

[Caroline]

In both movies, they take the woman who is pent up and full of an inner rage that she herself does not know the scale of and takes her on a boat, and that fixes everything.

[Jen]

It does. And in one film, it's very clear that they have sex, and the other, they probably don't because they probably can't because the age difference is a little bit troubling between Naena and Costas.

[Caroline]

Movie's all about a traveling age difference.

[Jen]

She's 16. He's. Oh, it could be anything from 21 to 24. We're not sure. Yeah, yeah, it's a bit much.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

But they go on a boat, as we all know. Boat is boat, fuck as fuck. Two very separate things. But, yeah, in the grand tradition of Tom Conti's Costas, this man's Costus. I don't know what his name is. I did Google him. He is, in fact, known for being in about 10 Hallmark movies. Puts on a really fun cod Greek accent.

[Caroline]

Yeah, he's from Philadelphia.

[Jen]

He's from Philadelphia. And he just says stuff like, I'm at the fish market because I must sell my fish here. This is.

[Caroline]

It's so one of those things as well. It's like, I think, you know, everybody really knows what a French accent is. Really knows what an Italian accent is, and really Knows what a Spanish accent is.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And everything else is just an odd mix of, like, Mediterranean, Eastern European. It's sort of like jumping all over place. And it's like, that could be Greek.

[Jen]

Right.

[Caroline]

No one's totally sure what Greek really is. So that's that.

[Jen]

Yeah. If you asked me to do a Greek accent, I wouldn't know where to start.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And neither did this man.

[Jen]

Well, we all share that. I think my favorite moment of the Lena film, other than the bit that as she becomes more sexually liberated, her hair gets more lustrous and curly. Quite fun. But I also like that the setup for this film is about the magic of the traveling pants, which, of course, jeans. Where did the pants come from and why did they choose us, as we were asked in the first moment? And the first action that the pants take upon being worn is attempting to drown the wearer. They're a real monkey's paw of a pant for Lena.

[Caroline]

One finger curled down.

[Jen]

Who falls off a Greek pier and then nearly gets stuck to the bottom of the ocean and truly nearly drowns.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Because the cuff of her jeans is stuck in a rod underneath the water. It's quite scary.

[Jen]

What are the chances? So at that point, I'm like, are these magic pants or are they cursed pants?

[Caroline]

Cursed pants.

[Jen]

Cursed pants. Because actually, there's also a world. And perhaps we'll return to this in our sort of final roundup. Where do the pants bring good things to these women's lives? Or bad? Because as far as I can tell, mainly death potential statutory rape, almost drowning, and family estrangement as the real gift of the traveling parents.

[Caroline]

Well, hang on. I think from what I could gather. Right. And I am so aware that this is a movie that's very important to many people. It's been requested many, many times in the middle of the garage before.

[Jen]

Oh, I love it. But I'm just thinking, give me a hot take here.

[Caroline]

Right, of course. Really, really loved it. I say that I'm being strong. I liked it. I liked it. We had a nice time. We had a pizza. It was cozy. However, it doesn't make me regret my no kid stuff rule on sentimental garbage. No. Because it doesn't feel good to rip on stuff that's supposed to be made for young teenagers.

[Jen]

No.

[Caroline]

Having said that.

[Jen]

That all said, there will be a little touch of ripping. Because it's funny.

[Caroline]

Because it's funny. Sorry, what were you just saying about.

[Jen]

I was just talking about the fact that I'm not sure that the magical pants actually bring great gifts because all of the women have quite traumatic summers in a variety of ways.

[Caroline]

Frowning statutory rape, family estrangement, and the death of a small child.

[Jen]

That's what the pants brought. They chose us. And they were like, you deserve this.

[Caroline]

But with the structure that on the. Okay, so on the first go around that each of the girls have the pants, they all have. Like, when they have the pants, pretty shitty times because it's like, oh, I almost drowned. Oh, nothing happened. Whatever. And then the second time, because some of them get to wear the pants.

[Jen]

They all get to wear the pants twice.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And the second time, that's when the magic happens. But not really all of them, because.

[Jen]

Bridget does not have a magic time second time around.

[Caroline]

Yeah, let's get to Bridget in a minute because that is a complicated story. Stay on Lena for the minute as we go from Gen County's least good plot lines to most good plot lines.

[Jen]

Lena, who listens to emo songs and jumps in here should. Yeah, look, it's. It's not a bad storyline. I'm just saying, of the four, it's the least good one. I also. And we're both very, very moved by this moment, which I think is really a moment that shows you this is a film for teenage girls, specifically young teenage girls.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Where Costas takes Elena out on his boat in the middle of the night by the light of a full moon. And they sit in the middle of the boat, and obviously I'm there, and I'm like, well, hey. And she's just telling him serenely about how nice all her best friends are, as though they are so cute. And he's just wearing a little jumper and nodding like, oh, amazing. That's why I took you out on this ocean. I wanted to hear you give a rundown as though they were my little ponies about your different ways.

[Caroline]

Three best friends.

[Jen]

And I was like, do you know what?

[Caroline]

So cute.

[Jen]

I would love someone to take me on a date. Where I was like, do you want me to tell you about all of my friends and how good they are? We'll be here for, like, an hour, and I'll do a rundown, and I'll be like, here's Caroline and Bridget.

[Caroline]

Bridget, she makes everything fun. And Carmen, she's brilliant, but she doesn't know it. And he's like, wow.

[Jen]

I think this is. I think that's a really nice moment in the film. Telling young women that when they go on their first big, proper adult date with a man on their own in the middle of the ocean where there's nobody's there to help you if anything goes wrong. He'll simply want to hear about your friends. It's lovely. Misleading, ceaselessly.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. Did I ever tell you. I can't remember if I've ever told you this or whether I've ever told podcast this, but either way, I'm gonna say it. One time, me and Dolly were in a. A pub. Like a lovely seaside seafood pub somewhere near. In Margate or something. And we were. We could overhear just behind us, a date happening. First date. What was clearly a hinge hookup date happening before. And. And what was happening on that date was this young woman. I put her 23, 24, she was exhausted, telling this young man the plot of youf've Got Mail, beat for beat. And Dolly was pissing herself. And I was having an existential crisis.

[Jen]

Iconic. What a glorious way.

[Caroline]

Because Dali just couldn't stop laughing. And I was just, like, shaking. I was like, what have we wrought? We have taught women, women, It's. It's too okay to love you've Got mail. To love it so much. You talk about it ceaselessly. The other day, like, she didn't stop for air. And this was Rory Gilmore on that boat. She does not stop rare. Just talking about how much she loves her best friends. He will never meet, and he just.

[Jen]

Wants to get in her traveling pants. And she's just there during, like, the royal call of honors of her friends.

[Caroline]

She.

[Jen]

I love this idea. I love the idea that maybe one day one of my friends will go on a date and they'll be like, and Jen, you gotta hear about.

[Caroline]

Jen, you gotta hear about.

[Jen]

Well, listen, in a cozy jumper will just be like, mmm, wonderful. Oh, yeah, she sounds amazing. Yeah, but in his Greek accent, she sounds amazing.

[Caroline]

Okay, what's important, though, is what we forget about dating is that because we're so used to us and our friends being in the. In the late 20s, early 30s to mid-30s cycle of dating, which is like, people are beginning to feel the power dynamics shift. It's like men suddenly feel way too empowered by how much choice they have and how freaked out their female contemporaries are by. So we have to listen to their bullshit. But there was a time not so long ago in our demure youth where they had to listen to us talk about nothing.

[Jen]

You are so right. I actually do. You know what? As someone who's recently been, you know, as we all know, ejected back out into the dating pool, I'm gonna struggle with this.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I really think that when I was like 25. Some of the mad shit I would say was relatively charming because I was hot. Now it's just. Now it's just. Why won't that woman stop talking? Honestly, I think I'm doomed.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you're doomed. That's what I'm here to tell you. You are most beautiful woman I've ever met, so shut up. But also, yeah, you will bore them ceaselessly.

[Jen]

They would just be like, why won't she.

[Caroline]

Because you haven't been on a first date in a while, so you're just gonna be like. And my friend Caroline, she has a podcast. Sometimes I do the podcast. But I have a friend, Becky, she loves to take photos.

[Jen]

Do you want to see pictures of my interraining trip? Nobody does. Oh my God. This is actually a really good learning experience for me.

[Caroline]

Yeah, listen, it's a coming of age movie for coming of age at all stages of life.

[Jen]

Yeah. Okay, so could you better ask.

[Caroline]

You're right, that is the best part of her entire journey.

[Jen]

It's when she's just there on the boat talking Cecil, and just nothing happens.

[Caroline]

Yeah. She does not get very far with all cost us. Except she does draw him in various stages of youth, of nudity.

[Jen]

Of youthful nudity.

[Caroline]

That's exactly what I meant.

[Jen]

Youthful, you can see like a classical statue. And she does tell him she loves him and that's nice. And presumably they never see each other again.

[Caroline]

Yeah, that's not what it's about.

[Jen]

No.

[Caroline]

I think there's a second one and I think, I don't know, does she see him again?

[Jen]

I have not seen the second one. Perhaps we'll watch it.

[Caroline]

Yeah, lots of teenagers and college aged men in this.

[Jen]

Yeah, lots of odd dynamics there.

[Caroline]

Poor old Brian is the only age appropriate love interest and he barely gets a look in. Brian McBride, the arcade gamer, goes out with Tibby.

[Jen]

Does this mean. Does this mean we're going to talk about Tibby's story now?

[Caroline]

What? Are you quite done with Rory Gilmour's Greek Adventure?

[Jen]

I actually felt that. Rory Gilmour's Greek Adventure. I felt that the moment with her grandfather at the end was very touching. She says something in Greek and he says, I'll miss you too.

[Caroline]

Yes, that was very sweet. And I wonder. Papu, papu. We're so used to Rory Gilmore having affectionate, tender moments with her on screen grandfathers. Oh.

[Jen]

I mean, I've never actually watched the Gilmore Girls.

[Caroline]

Oh, wow. Well, that's a big part of it.

[Jen]

I mean, I know of it. I know many things of it. I know the lore.

[Caroline]

But every couple of episodes, she's having a moving moment with that man.

[Jen]

Oh, really?

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. It's very nice. Very nice relationship to follow. But it really does feel like when they were casting this movie, and I have never read the book, so I have no idea how it translates, they just plucked Rory Gilmore out and they were like, be Rory Gilmore.

[Jen]

That'll do. She'll be Greek today.

[Caroline]

She'll be Greek today. There's also something that you said to me during it that has. And bear in mind, now, there are. Please go. If you're a Gilmore Girls fan, please go back and listen to the double episode that we did at Gilmore Girls. I think it's some of the best work we've done on this podcast. But there's something that you said to me about Rory, and I've been watching Rory Gilmour, Alexis Bledel, for many years now, and now it has changed everything about how I look at her. And we were just sitting there just sort of shooting the shit while she was on screen, and I was like, oh, you know, she's actually. I think Alexis Bledel is like Hispanic in her background, or I can't remember what nation she's from, but I know that she's Spanish, which is interesting. Right? Or she's from South America.

[Jen]

That's sort of like Greece.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, sure. She's got some kind of South American background. I'm not sure what it is. You Google it and you go, she's half Argentinian. And then we just pause and you just go, the Germanic side. I was like, are Alexis Nadal's grandparents or parents or whatever? Like, is she descended from fleeing Nazis from Germany? I just kept looking at those beautiful blue eyes. I was like, holy shit.

[Jen]

Yeah. Look. I didn't go deeply into her history. I just saw Danish and German, which.

[Caroline]

Is not traditionally Argentine, except for all the ones that moved there after World War II.

[Jen]

We all know the tales, don't we? Well, listen, she's got beautiful blue eyes.

[Caroline]

Oh, I'm just trying to always think about Roy Gilmore forever.

[Jen]

And also, I don't know anything. Thing about. About Alex the doll.

[Caroline]

No, I'm sure they were in there for normal reasons and probably before the war. Let's move on.

[Jen]

Yeah, off they were.

[Caroline]

This is. It's quite late at night, everyone.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But big, big sleepover energy today.

[Jen]

The traveling pants. We've had a pizza. We had an ice cream sandwich.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And you're sleeping over tonight?

[Jen]

I am. And all the rest of this one, cuz.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. Jen's staying here this week because Gav's traveling pans are in California right now for work, so I'd be alone.

[Jen]

We're both lonely and sad.

[Caroline]

We're both lonely and sad.

[Jen]

Lonely and sad.

[Caroline]

And Sylv is stinky.

[Jen]

And Sylv is stinky. But she's happy because we're all here together.

[Caroline]

Laina's storyline, listen, I think it's a kind of. Okay, so from a pure story beat perspective, I think it's also the weakest because it's just. It's like it's supposed to be a Romeo and Juliet story. Our grandfathers hate each other, but the drama of that never really takes off because the stakes are so low. The stakes are unbelievably low.

[Jen]

It's fish.

[Caroline]

It's a fish storyline. And it's also. It's like, oh, no, we're forbidden to be with one another, but they are very much having their relationship out in the open. There's not even one, like, scene where she's like, oh, no, I'm lying to my grandparents about where I am. She's just heading out. She's going out.

[Jen]

She's just there.

[Caroline]

She's out in the Vespa. She's in the town square.

[Jen]

And then it's a small town.

[Caroline]

It's a small town. It's daylight, they can see her. And so the dramatic snakes never get off the ground. And also Costas, God love him, it's such a bad fake Greek accent. It's so bad. Again, I think it's one of those ones where it is the. It is such a wish fulfillment storyline. And I do think the History of the Traveling Pants does a very good job of doing that. The balance of form, Sex and the City characters type of thing.

[Jen]

She's the Charlotte.

[Caroline]

It's. She's the Charlotte. It's Sex and City junior in the sense. And Karma is the Carrie, Blake Lively is the Samantha, and Tibby is the Miranda.

[Jen]

It completely checks out.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you gotta have it. And I think what you have to do and what Sexy City does so well and why it's so indelible is that one episode, it'll be like, you know, Carrie will have a big relationship story going with big. Miranda might have, like, you know, a fertility storyline or Charlotte might have a fertility storyline or maybe Miranda's mother's side. And then the other two, whoever the other two are left spare will be holding up the kind of frivolous stakes.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Caroline]

You know, Samantha will have a crazy storyline or Charlotte will have, like, A crazy. You know what I mean? And, like, you need to have that balance going all the time. And I think Sister of the Charming Pans does a really good job of doing the preteen version of that.

[Jen]

It does, yeah. And all the way through. Aside from the drowning, Laena's story is just giving soft, soft padding.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

She's sort of a lovely comfort cushion around the edges.

[Caroline]

Yeah. She's like a nivead.

[Jen]

Yeah. And her big change, the big thing that happens to her is she learns to dress sexy, which is wearing a pedal pusher and a shirt with a slightly lower neckline. And we love that for her.

[Caroline]

But the thing is, we never quite know why she wants to dress Mormon.

[Jen]

I think she's just shy. She's just shy. She's 16, you know.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And, like, it's also. It's God love Alexis Badell. Like, I would say of the four actors, she may be also the weakest. Like, fair. I've been following her many, many, many years. Her. Her. What she does is great, but there's only a few things that she does that's fair. I think that's fair to say.

[Jen]

Listen, I think she did the best she could. We've hung her out to dry like an octopus on a Greek fishing line. That's the thing they really do when.

[Caroline]

Her nan is just hanging out as an octopus.

[Jen]

I bet they couldn't put the thing at the end about, like, no animals being harmed in the making of this film.

[Caroline]

No.

[Jen]

Because of the prevalence of dead octopi. Octopuses. Oh, my God. It's not octopi. How embarrassing.

[Caroline]

Octopuses.

[Jen]

Octopuses. Octopuses. There's too many dead octopuses in this film for them to be able to put that disclaimer on. So I think that's Lena's story.

[Caroline]

Yes. And I think what she like. Yeah. Again, because it's un. It's not really been written down what it is her deal is, other than, like, I don't really, really quite know who I am yet. I'm a bit awkward. Which, when you put that, when you stack that up against leukemia child, parental estrangement and statutory rape, it's quite a weak storyline. It is.

[Jen]

But look, in the long tradition of pairings, you're going to have the sexy one, you've got to have the shy one. She's there. She's the foil to Blake Livesey.

[Caroline]

She's the Charlotte. Exactly.

[Jen]

What's number three for you?

[Caroline]

Yeah, number four is definitely Lena's Greek adventure. Number three, I think, is dying child And Tibby.

[Jen]

Well, let's talk about the dying child, shall we? Yeah, we've put into bronze position for this. It's extremely.

[Caroline]

It's contentious. But I will be interested in the listeners and how they would rank the storyline. So, okay.

[Jen]

Because Tibby is the most annoying character easily.

[Caroline]

Well, here's the thing. Here's for me. So I think she's the most annoying character, but among one of the strongest actors and performers. And I also think because. So Amber Tamberlain, which I think is how you pronounce it, she's an actor who is very famous in America for a show called Joan of Arcadia, which never really took off over here. So. And that was like a kind of a downbeat drama about like. It was very like my so called life kind of vibe. And so she, I think. And then she later retired from acting, became a poet. Very cute.

[Jen]

Yeah. Oh, that's lovely.

[Caroline]

Very nice. Seemed like a really nice. I've read this to you. Other ones. She seemed like a really nice lady who just kind of got what she got out of that life.

[Jen]

She's very convincing as Tibby. Yeah, it was very annoying.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And the kind of like coming to. Coming to realize that Bailey, the annoying child who dies, that I felt her performance is very moving when she sort of like. It's very teenage of like she's avoidant in like she can't quite face it. And so she's avoiding going to the hospital for days. And then she finally does. And it just. Her performance is great. But in terms of. Yeah, the wise dying child. If I were to class that as a movie, it's very much like in that tradition of like Garden State or like that's how it's shot. And it's like she's in a small town, she's got blue hair, she's fucking. She's going around filming. And I think what's effective about it is that it's about sort of a very Daria esque character who's like, thinks everything fucking sucks. And like she's making kind of Breakfast.

[Jen]

Club as well, isn't it?

[Caroline]

Very Breakfast Club. It feels like early 90s in its sort of positioning. And I think the whole point really is that she's just one of these characters who's so like typical of teenage life. Of like I'm making my documentary about people with low paid jobs and how fucking shitty they are and like blah.

[Jen]

She calls it her succumentary.

[Caroline]

Her succumentary.

[Jen]

Everyone's a loser.

[Caroline]

Everyone's a loser.

[Jen]

But her journey is to realizing that everything's kind of beautiful.

[Caroline]

Yeah, exactly. And like, I think. And that's, that's a more annoying journey. It's a very annoying journey to realizing everything is quote unquote, kind of beautiful.

[Jen]

It may be important if you're 13 years old and in a real jaded, cynical world.

[Caroline]

Well, I think actually they would do better to. If they want to be didactic about the lesson of every storyline, don't fuck your soccer coach. You won't like it. And also, it's like that thing of. It's actually really easy to be cynical when you're young and you think it's like, it will work and you think it will make you cool or interesting or charming, but then you realize that actually the world is really fucking gnarly and you have to be. You have to be enthusiastic about it or else you would drown. And I think if it positioned itself more that way, it would be more compelling than. Isn't this child wise, even though she's dying at 12?

[Jen]

I wonder if part of the reason that Tibi's storyline is, for me, very irritating is just the casting of the wise child who kind of, despite being 12 years old, has the general demeanor and face of someone in their 50s. Not in like a, like, I'm not. There's not any comment on the physical appearance in terms of like a like attractiveness of the actor who is 12. But like, she just has the kind of energy of someone who is 50 who's been CGI'd down to a 12 year old. Do you know what I mean?

[Caroline]

Oh, I do know what you mean.

[Jen]

And I found it.

[Caroline]

It's something of the uncanny valley of it.

[Jen]

She doesn't feel like, I almost. I want a more childlike actor because then I can like actually be like, I feel sad. I was just like, well, yeah, this child's already lived for a thousand years.

[Caroline]

This child is a changeling. She's either throw it in the fire.

[Jen]

Or she's like one incarnation from true enlightenment. I don't know.

[Caroline]

It's one or the other.

[Jen]

It's like the Buddha at this point.

[Caroline]

She'S either a changed thing or wanted one carnation away from the Buddha. It's like it was either swapped out by fairies and replaced and the real child is under the ground and you must go get her.

[Jen]

No one did. And that's why she dies at 12. As all changelings do. You know, they can't survive that long in the world.

[Caroline]

God, we're missing it.

[Jen]

They're really made of twigs and leaves and stuff.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

I'm just mixing up my mythologies there, but I just, I think possibly they cast her like as an old, an old soul. And I just think it would have been better if it was an actual wide eyed, sunny faced child.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Who really liked talking to people who.

[Jen]

Didn'T feel as though she was actually 75,000 years old.

[Caroline]

That's fair enough. That's really fair enough.

[Jen]

And I couldn't. Couldn't.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. What else is going on in Tibi storyline?

[Jen]

It is really just that. Oh, actually, no, in fairness, Brian McBrien, the greatest name I've seen.

[Caroline]

Brian McBrien.

[Jen]

And also Brian McBrien who is kind of hot.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Totally hot. Once again, why we don't do kids stuff on the podcast. Weird to talk about a hot 17 year old, but I would have gone for Brian McBrien.

[Jen]

Yeah. When I was that age I'd have been like, oh, Brian McBrien, he spends a lot of time humping a machine in a way that gets a bit. You're just watching it, being like, no, stop that Brian.

[Caroline]

Stop that, Brian.

[Jen]

Weird. I honestly, I mean, I even took some notes, you know, because there's so many things. Oh, I was like, just trying to. I was like, there's nothing more to say. But there is a wonderful moment in Tibby's storyline which I. Well, two moments actually that I want to bring to your attention. The first is that when Tibby finds dying child Bailey.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

She checks her wallet for an ID.

[Caroline]

Children have IDs.

[Jen]

Is this an American thing? Do you have an ID that would.

[Caroline]

Be so American to tag your kids out.

[Jen]

Do you have like just in case it's an id, a driving license?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

A passport perhaps?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I don't know. Strange. But the final moments of Bailey's on screen time where Tibby turns up at the hospital bed and brings the jeans and basically says, maybe these jeans will cure your terminal cancer for me.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And I quote, these pants will give you a miracle.

[Caroline]

They. They didn't.

[Jen]

No. That was a weird moment.

[Caroline]

It was a little.

[Jen]

We know what to think about it.

[Caroline]

But I mean I thought it was kind of nice just that. Well, the thing is, it would.

[Jen]

The belief that the trousers could cure cancer.

[Caroline]

No. I don't know. I thought the performance of it, the desperation was good. The belief that the trousers can cause cancer, that can solve cancer, cure cancer a bit much.

[Jen]

But as we all know, the 75,000 year old wise child says, the pants have already worked their magic on me. They Brought me to you.

[Caroline]

They didn't really, because you had a fit in a supermarket and we had to call an ambulance. That's.

[Jen]

But remember, they were delivered to Bailey's door incorrectly.

[Caroline]

Oh, that's true. Yes. Fair enough. I take it back.

[Jen]

She's not wrong.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

But yeah, no, I think Tibby's story is like. It's probably the one that I find the easiest to gloss over. Even though there's quite a lot in there. The fact that, like, we can't. Her jadedness isn't out of nothing as well. She's clearly got two much younger siblings.

[Caroline]

And it's really no dad in the picture.

[Jen]

Being eldest daughterified to the max in that she's just unpaid babysitting.

[Caroline]

Yes. And all of her friends are elsewhere.

[Jen]

And she's walking at Walmond. Walking. She's walking up Walmond.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Which is the sloppiest cover up Walmart ever. Walmans.

[Jen]

And entirely sponsored by Herbal Essences.

[Caroline]

Yeah. If you watch this movie again, you realize that Herbal Essences were a massive sponsor because every time Tibby is in Walman's, she is standing near a Herbal Essences stand. Also, in the soccer scenes, they're like, oh, like, oh, my mom sent me shampoo. It's Herbal Essences. You will see so much Herbal Essences. And it really brought me back to that time and place when Herbal Essences was an important brand for young women.

[Jen]

Choke hold on young American.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

There was that moment actually, early in the film where when Tibby is first introduced, outworm and some kids come up to her and go, hey, where are the shampoos?

[Caroline]

Right.

[Jen]

She sort of gesticulates as though they're five aisles away. And then it pans out and she stood next to a whole load of shampoos, just sort of thinking, tibby, are you blind?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Everywhere is shampoo and women's.

[Caroline]

Woman's is just shampoo.

[Jen]

Woman sells nothing but shampoo. That's all it's there for. It's like that. That toothpaste place we found in Slovenia that just sold 7,000 brands of toothpaste.

[Caroline]

Remember? And protein shakes.

[Jen]

And protein shakes, yeah.

[Caroline]

Two things. Slovenia is an odd vibe that way.

[Jen]

That's all it is. There's nothing there.

[Caroline]

It's a bit like with the. It's a bit like love, actually, isn't it? Where when you have an ensemble piece like this in that, like it comes together to make quite a cozy little orchestra. But when you really deconstruct each thing and obviously that's the.

[Jen]

That's not how you're supposed to watch this film.

[Caroline]

It's not how you're supposed to watch this film. But it's like, yeah, any ensemble is gonna do that. And also, all of the plot lines will have to be truncated down so much that it really relies on the material and the performers.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Here's something interesting about speaking about the material. This is co. Written by Delia Ephron, who is Nora Ephron's sister.

[Jen]

Not see that coming.

[Caroline]

I was very surprised to see that.

[Jen]

In the credits in the Curls MT font.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God.

[Jen]

Takes you back.

[Caroline]

Curls mt and this film are walking hand in hand. My. They. They really do own this film. The way Avatar owns Papyrus. This owns Curls mt.

[Jen]

I feel like I can't remember. I don't know when the Sister of the Traveling Pants was published, but it feels like a book that was published when I was a children's bookseller and it feels like that was on the COVID Like, I have a very vivid memory in the. Within the. The early 2000s when I was.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

You know, selling books in Cheltenham. Oticus.

[Caroline]

Speaking of that, this is a good, actually, for the Tibby storyline that I do think it does speak to the. The boom in YA books. Yeah, that was.

[Jen]

That was a kind of. That was just. Just post Harry Potter, people realized that kids would read and they'd read big books.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And they could excel.

[Caroline]

And a huge part of that trend was obviously you had your Hunger Games and your dystopias and all that kind of stuff. But when you were talking about the more real grounded YA fiction, dead kids or dying kids, fiction was a big, big deal. Like the Fault in Our Stars and Me and Earl and the Dying Girl. There was just so much of, like, terminally ill YA stuff.

[Jen]

God.

[Caroline]

And I remember it was like a we. I wouldn't call it a moral panic, but there was definitely a real moment to be like, why are all our kids fiendishly reading about leukemia?

[Jen]

That's why we were all so emo. That's why. The MySpace Times.

[Caroline]

Yeah. But it does sort of remind you of Evanescence. You know, it was the day of Evanescence.

[Jen]

That's what they were listening to.

[Caroline]

But no, I do think that, like, I mean, most ya, it's very like, it's always interesting to me that Adrian Mole, for example, were books for adults, not children really. But I read them when I was young, but I only really got them when I was maybe in my early 20s, that, you know, generally when a teenager is picking up books, a real young Teenager. They are looking for an extremity of human experience. Right. They're looking for live or die romance. They are looking for incredibly sad divorces. They're looking for dying kids. That is why Jacqueline Wilson is printing money, because she could think of the worst things to happen to kids.

[Jen]

Jacqueline Wilson. Melvin. Was it Melvin Burgess who wrote about like Herod junk? Was it called. I've already mentioned before, Aiden Chambers. This is all a book that made me cry more than anything else in the whole universe. Yeah, just, just extreme sadness. This is definitely. Yeah, this is definitely very, very early ya. This is 2001. And brashares. Brashares could be a Greek surname. I'm probably saying it wrong. So literally like two years after Harry Potter starts coming out, maybe three.

[Caroline]

Okay.

[Jen]

This is, this is, this is early on. YA is not established as a genre in the way that it is now.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Because I think it's Judy Bloom. Well then what?

[Jen]

Jacqueline Wilson?

[Caroline]

Yeah. Well, so what was happening with Teenage Richard before the YA boom of the early naughty's then? Because obviously there's always been teen literature.

[Jen]

There has, but it, but it is like I'm fully just like going back in my mind to the bookshop I worked in as a kids bookseller as like a 16 to 18 year old. It was a very small section.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Like now. Massive. But it used to be that you'd have like, you'd have your preschool, like your little bits and you have your middle readers and your 8 to 12. And then there'd be like one shelf of sort of dark colored covers and signs. Yes, yes. You're looking at rhymes. You'd have like, you know, like the girls out late and like a couple of the Jacqueline Wilson titles that were maybe a little bit mad. Or you'd have a couple of Judy Blooms kind of dotted in there like.

[Caroline]

Like forever and a lot of like point horrors.

[Jen]

A lot of point horrors.

[Caroline]

Yeah, that's why.

[Jen]

That's where they put the stuff that was just a little bit too much for kids or that had generally if it was like, if it had actual conversations about sexual. And you'd always have this thing where if you were a person who sold children's books at this point in time, people would come up to you and they sort of slide a book to the desk and they'd be like, my kid wants to read this. Is it appropriate for them? And I'd be like, what do you mean? And they'd be like, has it got sex in it? And I'd be looking at the kid being like this kid's like 14, 15. This kid knows about banging. And I'd say, yes, it does. And they just sort of slide it away and ban their children from reading it. This was. Yeah, but they were really fine with the horrible ones with the mice that murdered one another. No one ever had an issue with that.

[Caroline]

Which I thought was the red wall books, hateful books.

[Jen]

But that was just. It was always this very narrow. It was like the kind of like, I think it was basically treated as like the pawn shelf of the kids section.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And was sort of policed quite carefully.

[Caroline]

I. You're right, you're bringing back that memory to me now.

[Jen]

You felt quite naughty going there with your parents and being like, I think I'm ready for young adult.

[Caroline]

And you know what? Actually I think what was happening possibly, I think maybe the tradition of reading Pre the late 90s, early noughties, pre this ya boom that we're talking about right now, was very much that, like you had a kid and they were a reader and they read through everything in the children's library and then they just would wander over to the adult library. And I think this was a time where I think it was quite. Maybe I'm totally wrong and teachers at the time or whatever can totally correct me, but from what it seems like it was like you either weren't a reader and you did other things or you were a reader and you had read all of Lord of the Rings by the time you were 11 kind of thing. And you, and you. Your difficulty level got very steep very quickly. And like, even if you, if you read like a Diana Wynne Jones that's aimed at a 10 year old in 1970 or whatever, 1985, go. Yeah.

[Jen]

I think for a few years you would just kind of. Yo, yo. Between them you'd read like a book that was clearly written for 12 year olds.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

And then you'd read like the God of small things and be like, I don't get that.

[Caroline]

Or like Sophie's World or something.

[Jen]

Yeah, oh, Sophie's World was always the trend. They were like, that's a great one for you as a teenager. Yeah, I think it's really good that someone invented ya.

[Caroline]

I'm really glad they did because it gave us this movie which we haven't talked about for five minutes.

[Jen]

Oh, you're right. So we'll chat about YA now, which is an excellent genre that we're both very supportive of.

[Caroline]

I mean some of us are these supported by it.

[Jen]

That's very true. Listen, I love It. I love to see it. Okay, so we've covered Tibby's story, which is the true ya.

[Caroline]

True YA story. I mean, it's all ya.

[Jen]

We now get into a toss up. Are we gonna talking about America Ferreira? Are we gonna talk about Blake Lively? Okay, I think I'll let you decide because I. I think I have. They. They sort of tie for number one place for me in many ways.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Because they are the two most compelling dramatic storylines. I think what's interesting is that Blake Lively's character, Bridget, you almost think it's like, tonally, the very, very, very strange. So it's like you. Our first thing we really see about her is that she is. Her mother has died of suicide. Of suicide. And she doesn't really know how to deal with it. And she's like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna run home from the funeral. And it's lying. She channels all of her bad emotions into physical exercise, which is very wild. And it's like, oh, she's like. Like a beautiful. Like, also very beautiful. Very aware of her power and her body. And she goes to football camp in Mexico with her friends. And it's like, we're like, oh, if there are four movies in this movie, then this movie is a porn movie.

[Jen]

Because it's a porn movie with a dark, dark opening.

[Caroline]

With a dark, dark opening. Because it's just like every scene of is her in the smallest possible exercising clothes, which is like the teeniest shorts, the smallest sports bra. Her, like, just running and golden and glistening with sweat and beautiful. And everyone loves her. And she's trying to seduce her football coach.

[Jen]

And she's got the silliest wig I've.

[Caroline]

Ever seen, the worst hair I've ever seen in a movie. And she, like, throws herself on the beach and she's like, God, don't you just love to run? And you can explain. See her sternum rising and falling, and she's like, kind of thing. And it's. It's a very strange Lolita storyline.

[Jen]

It's Lolita. It's American Beauty. It's all those films about girls being sexualized too young. I never saw 13, but I think it's probably that a little bit that. Yeah, yeah, it's very like.

[Caroline]

And it's. It's a. It's an uncomfortable watch because it's like, it's very like paying into the pockets, I guess is the phrase I kept coming back to. It's really paying into the pockets of like, the kind of narrative of young women who aren't of age, legally speaking, but who, like, are basically traps for men. She's like, it's like such a jail baity storyline where she's like this, this very noble football coach who just. Just wants to teach teenage girls how to play football.

[Jen]

Why does he want to do that at 19 years old? It's hard to say.

[Caroline]

Hard to know, but he loves it. He's at Columbia and this is his summer job.

[Jen]

This is his true passion, his calling in life.

[Caroline]

And he's just doing everything he bloody can to avoid the sort of succubus advances of Blake Lively's character. And then. No, no, no. And she like stalks him to a local cantina and tries to dance with them and take his shirt off and he's like, no, no, no, no, no.

[Jen]

I can't do this, I can't do that.

[Caroline]

It's almost like a story. And she's so, like ravishing with all the hair and the legs everywhere. Wow. And it almost feels like a story. And like that was the first point in the movie where I said to you, I think a man directed this.

[Jen]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And a man did. But it just felt like something that a man like a story, the imagination of a story that a man tells his friends who's like, yeah, but you should have seen her. I mean, she was all over me. And you would never have known she was 6.

[Jen]

You just would never.

[Caroline]

And then like, you see the girl and you're like, I would have known she was 16.

[Jen]

Yes, 100%.

[Caroline]

Because that person is just like crying out with vulnerability and sadness and does not know what she's doing and is driving without a license. But that, like, I feel like. And like the director of this, Ken something or other, he's like a very established director. He's done loads of teen stuff before. He wants Malcolm in the Middle and stuff.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

So he's like got a very good handle on how to direct young people. But I feel like being a man and a boomer, he lost the nuances of like, you know, that, that whole Lolita thing, I feel it's not, it's really uncomfortably done, I think.

[Jen]

I imagine, I would imagine the book writes her character better.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

But the director, when confronted with 19 year old Blake Lively was like soft porn, I guess.

[Caroline]

It's not porn, I guess. But then look at the way the.

[Jen]

Light wants to caress her hair.

[Caroline]

The light just wants to do that.

[Jen]

Who am I to stop the light?

[Caroline]

She's like, I'm in Mexico with the most beautiful girl I've ever seen. And the light just keeps shooting through her hair.

[Jen]

I guess that's what capture it now. I guess everything's soft focus and she's just a little tiny bit slow motion. And no, her clothes should never be bigger than that.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And I do understand what it's doing of, like, when you get a character like that who. Her body is everything to her and her physicality is everything to her, and it's the only thing she can control in a world that is unable. She's unable to control. And that's like, very tragic. And how she would. Like, she knows how men responds to her and that's the one thing she can do. And, like, she doesn't have a good home life with her dad, so she's channeling all of her energy into, like, I can like, bewitch this man and he can be mine.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And then she finally gets him. And it's horrifying. Like, it's really upsetting.

[Jen]

Like, I think it's. The story is just very disempowering for her, which is, what? Slightly. Something slightly off about it. Like, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with a story about a young woman who's grieving and is finding her way through grief in a very physical way. That's about getting out of kind of. What is it? Out of the prison of my mind, into the playground of my body and all that kind of stuff.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I don't know where I read that, but someone said that.

[Caroline]

Very, very Bridget, though. Very Bridget. Yeah.

[Jen]

I'm just like, this is where I'm gonna be fun and sensual and sensuous and I'm gonna outrun the fear of, like, her mother's mental. Unspecified mental illness and probably the fear.

[Caroline]

Of hereditary mental illness.

[Jen]

Fear of all that. But something about it is just a little bit too lascivious. And just the way that it's filmed and it's portrayed in the. In the direction not in the story.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I wouldn't be like. Like, I wouldn't be 100 comfortable with my niece watching it, you know?

[Jen]

Yeah. And being like this, you'd almost be like, so this is not just. Just little gloss here.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

No.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Where's the supervision at this camp?

[Caroline]

Well, he is. The supervision at this camp. We shouldn't be.

[Jen]

Where's the safeguarding? You know, like, where's the. There's a duty of care.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

What's happening? It was terrible.

[Caroline]

And like, with the thing. The weird kind of uncanny valley thing going on with Bridget's storyline is that it's both extremely realistic That a real teenage girl would do this and a real teenage girl would perceive. Pursue her coach in this way. And that he would eventually relent and just go for it. And that she would feel terrible about it. I think that's a very real and real storyline. But it's just something in the handling and the shooting of those scenes where it's like, God, he wants to fuck her. And so do I. Like, you know what I mean?

[Jen]

Don't we all?

[Caroline]

Don't we all? Audience of preteen girls.

[Jen]

You know, of man. Forgot Kevin. I want to say.

[Caroline]

Does it not matter? Does not matter. Wig boy. Colombian wig boy.

[Jen]

He of the golden mullet. We don't know what he's called. And we don't need to know.

[Caroline]

We don't need to know.

[Jen]

And I think the film wants to sympathize with him, but I simply can't.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And I simply don't. And I really feel for her. And why is no one checking the.

[Caroline]

Film Feels like it's more on his side than her side. A little bit. Yeah.

[Jen]

There's definitely. Also, all her roommates seem to dislike her. And, I mean, I get it. She might if. If you were sort of trapped in a tiny box house with a sort of blonde goddess of a woman who was intent on fucking a football coach.

[Caroline]

And nothing she talks about nothing else.

[Jen]

Nothing at all.

[Caroline]

When she's not talking about her football coach and how much she wants to fuck him, she's talking about her Genesis. Her jeans that are coming in the post.

[Jen]

She doesn't pass the Bechdel test. Even though she's there as a super fan of sports. You know, she's just. She will only talk about women in sports. Women in sports. But I, too, would be like, she's a bit annoying, but I feel like if she suddenly went from being this incandescent ray of sunlight that the light wants to caress to sitting entirely in the fetal position in her bed, I'd.

[Caroline]

Be like, can someone check on Bridget?

[Jen]

Are you okay? Should I get the camp counsellor? Do you want to talk about anything? You seem sad.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And you did definitely go out all night to the beach.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

It's like. No. No one was really watching her. She's feeling pretty lonely.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

No one had her back. She's very alone. Because she's. Because she's quite. She's sort of positioned as the protector in the group as well, isn't she?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Quite early on as being the one who will. I would like to. Maybe I should read the book because I Feel like probably there's something there around her being very strong and therefore people not wanting to check in on her. But then.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And I'm also sure that if you were reading the book, you would be very much, like, struck by, like, wow. Like, sexuality is a very complicated thing and we look for answers in places where we will get none. And I'm sure it's, like, wonderfully handled because this is a beloved book and whatever, but I feel like If I was 12 or 13 and watching this. And again, not to. Kids are going to watch what they're going to watch on the sense of them or whatever, but, like, I would have not taken away the right messages from that necessarily.

[Jen]

Again, having not read the book, don't know how it's handled, but there is a sort of, I'd say medium implication that the sex, while consensual, there was something off about it.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Because the man in question, who's at Columbia and there's a sports person, chases her down to her home address to check out. Check. It's all cool. And like, hey, men don't do that.

[Caroline]

If they're not pretty sure they've done something that will lose their Columbia placement.

[Jen]

That's not a thing. You just do it for fun.

[Caroline]

Like.

[Jen]

Again, there's nothing definite that I could, you know, hang my hat on there, but I'm like, something about this. Something about the way that she feels afterwards, followed by the way he responds and follows up.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And she's not doing it.

[Jen]

She didn't say stop, but she didn't say yes. You know, like, that's what it feels like.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

In fact, I think she even says. I think she didn't tell you to stop.

[Caroline]

And it's like, yeah, but. Yeah, but you were crying.

[Jen]

Right.

[Caroline]

Try not to be dark about the darkest possible things.

[Jen]

Feel quite dark. It felt very dark.

[Caroline]

And I think the way that.

[Jen]

That final bit. So in the film where she meets Golden Mullet again in the street.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And he's just like, I guess we can just be friends.

[Caroline]

Yeah. In a few years when you're 20, come call me.

[Jen]

Let's be, what, 28 to 30? Hard to say.

[Caroline]

I'm just looking at what you've been like, that girl's gonna be in therapy.

[Jen]

Yeah. So she's gonna call you, but it won't be to go on a date.

[Caroline]

Nope.

[Jen]

It will be to be like. Do you think that maybe that was a bit weird?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

What happened?

[Caroline]

Do you know what? Again, to bring up Second City. Once again, I saw a fabulous Tweet. And I only ever see fabulous tweets.

[Jen]

When they're put on Instagram or someone sends them to you.

[Caroline]

Exactly. And that's actually the best way to experience Twitter now is because it goes through the kind of the filters, the peer reviewed filters, and it finally ends up at your door when it's a screengrab. But it said something. It was like somebody, the original tweet was watching Sex and the City was fun in my teens, but now I'm in my 20s and it's too much like, oh my God, why can't Carrie and Big work it out? And then somebody in their 30s, quote, retweeted and said, I'm in my 30s. And let me tell you why. He. He's sexually attracted to her, but finds her humiliating socially. And also all the women of his class have blacklisted him. And it's so funny when it's like the older you get, the more you just see like, oh, that's what's going on. Because I've lived, I've been around a couple times. All the women of his class have blacklisted him. He finds her sexually attractive, but socially humiliating. So good.

[Jen]

That is like several men I've dated, I think, as previously discussed.

[Caroline]

But like with them, I imagine again, when I was a teen, probably watching Bridget's storyline being like, wow, pretty stand up guy. Coming all the way to her house.

[Jen]

To make sure she's okay.

[Caroline]

Coming all the way to her house to make sure there's not a fucking lawsuit in his hands. Like, Jesus Christ.

[Jen]

And to say, call me again in a few years when it's definitely not gonna be as weird.

[Caroline]

Yeah. The statute of limitations on this thing runs out.

[Jen]

How many years is that again?

[Caroline]

Fucking hell.

[Jen]

Call me. Then another.

[Caroline]

He's fucking dark, man. It's so weird.

[Jen]

It's so weird. Do you know what else is weird? And not in a dark way, just in an egregious way. One of the transition decisions. Okay, so some transitions in this film. Very good.

[Caroline]

And by transitions we mean how they get from one scene to another.

[Jen]

Yeah. And they're a couple of them, quite artful. You know, a ball is kicked in one country, one place, and then a ball lands and you're in another country. But the transition in question happens on the beach where Blake Lively's character Bridget is kissing Golden Mullet in a very sort of tonguey, kind of like quite a sort of like, you know, you can really feel. You can hear the waves lapping, you can hear the saliva lapping.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Yeah. And the transition is then lean out in Greece horribly to a spoon plunged in a jar of honey and just sort of wiggled around and then lift a gloopy honey jar that Lena pulls out and it's like body horror.

[Caroline]

It's disgusting. Like knees in her honeypot. It's a horrible, horrible, horrible choice. It's dreadful.

[Jen]

That scene should be redacted. We shrieked the way we shrieked.

[Caroline]

The honey scene.

[Jen]

The honey scene. Appalling.

[Caroline]

Appalling.

[Jen]

I mean, one thing I think I will just pause, say here is I do genuinely enjoy this film. Obviously ripping the piss out of it in the way that one affectionately does of things that one once saw when one was young. But like, yeah, I think.

[Caroline]

I think it's really well made. I think there's some slip ups. Obviously the honey scene. The honey scene, that honey. Yeah. Mental.

[Jen]

Mental. Yeah. I think I would like if there's ever a Netflix remake of History of the Traveling Pants and why wouldn't there be?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I think 10 parter and I think Bridget's story would be something more interestingly handled. They have more weight to everything, of course, so work a bit better. But I think that bit particularly would be done differently.

[Caroline]

Are we being school marmish in the sense that like, does it. Does sisterhood, traveling plans work? Because there isn't that much death? Because it is ultimately a story about the terrible things that girls have to go through when they're teenagers. And they all do go through them. All of us have gone through at least one of the things girl. And the point is like, you know, what if you got your gals? At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if your kid friend died or you're alienated from your weird dad from the West Wing, as long as you got girlhood. Girlhood is the messages of the returning fans that girlhood is fucking dark and you've got to get some nice pals and a pair of jeans to get through it.

[Jen]

I don't know, I just. I think possibly at this point in history, in 2001, Anne named Senator forgotten author of this book wasn't probably was edited out of going a bit more intense some of those bits. I feel like this was the era where people were still not quite as you talked about. Now we've had. We've had jungle, we've had Melvin Burgess, we've had all this stuff. I don't know, I just think there could have been a little bit more there. Speaking of being estranged from your weird West Wing dad, that storyline I love.

[Caroline]

That storyline, because it's so crazy. It's so well acted. I think if we were to rank the. All the films, I think that's the closest thing to being a real drama.

[Jen]

Oh, that is a real psychological drama. At one point you were like, this is get out.

[Caroline]

This is like, it does feel like get out. And like, it's also the one that if it were a whole movie, I could see myself really watching it and really, it being a real Tribeca sort of Cannes. You know what I mean?

[Jen]

Like, it's. It's the ladybird of these four stories.

[Caroline]

Totally. And it's really compelling of like. And I think also America Ferreira is just so good.

[Jen]

Oh, she's phenomenal.

[Caroline]

Like, there's a couple of scenes where she's delivering lines to either into a phone or she's a long monologue. I'm like, yeah, I can see why Greta Gur would cast her for that long old monologue in Barbie. She can really handle a scene all by herself.

[Jen]

She's. Yeah, she's great. She's great in everything. Yeah, she's great in this role.

[Caroline]

Take me through the beats of Carmen's storyline. So Carmen's the narrator, so we might call her the main character.

[Jen]

She is. Yeah. She is going to visit her dad, name unknown, Carmen dad in Charleston.

[Caroline]

West Wing dad.

[Jen]

West Wing dad who's got that sort of funny hair that's both balding and poofy at the same time.

[Caroline]

You know, bet that if you want to. If you want to on screen, that you want the man to be a weak man.

[Jen]

You make his hair three inches out from his head, but also with a deep V receding on either side. Lovely, lovely.

[Caroline]

It's so telegraphic. This is a weak man who doesn't confront reality. It's like he won't shave his head, though. He needs to.

[Jen]

Yes, yes. There he is, just sideshow bobbing it.

[Caroline]

Weak man.

[Jen]

So she goes to Charleston to stay with her dad for the summer and her mum's like, are you okay? And she's like, oh, of course I am. It's my dad I love. Would be great. We're gonna hang out. It's gonna be fun. And then she gets there and he's.

[Caroline]

Like, they've been divorced a long time.

[Jen]

They have. Yeah. And it. And she gets there and he just drives her to the burbs to one of those little McMansion houses where he's got a pre made Stepford family.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

That she's not been told about, who.

[Caroline]

Are like very white, very blonde. Very Southern.

[Jen]

Very. Just like.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

And she then is sort of having to deal with that and he is.

[Caroline]

Not helping at all.

[Jen]

No, he does not get help.

[Caroline]

He hasn't told her about any of it.

[Jen]

He truly, it's quite clear throughout the whole film, just was hoping that she would forget she had a dad and that he could just go on with his life.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

He's kind of like, oopsie.

[Caroline]

And he's like, if I can't do that, then I am going to just seamlessly assimilate you into my life and not give you any explanation, any context or whatever.

[Jen]

Did I not mention I've got a new partner? She's got two children. And also we're getting married in four.

[Caroline]

Weeks and you're a bridesmaid. But I also. It's the thing, it's so men of men.

[Jen]

It's so men of men.

[Caroline]

It's like I sort of like, I do believe this happened to somebody.

[Jen]

Oh, I think it happened. I believe it continues to happen.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

On a regular basis. And he doesn't get his in this film in the way that he should.

[Caroline]

No.

[Jen]

You know, he does not get the just desserts that he is just deserving.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And that is actually one of the great like tragedies of Carmen's storyline.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Is that she's left parent her own dad through his stupid choices.

[Caroline]

And it's really.

[Jen]

It's really very heart rending.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Because it's like time and time again this man fails to rise to the occasion in big and in small ways. It's like he obviously, he doesn't tell her what's up. But then like they have like. There's these small moments of quality time that all get taken away from them. They're supposed to play tennis together and then he just blows her off or whatever.

[Jen]

Like, go fuck your brother.

[Caroline]

Go fuck your brother. Go fuck your new brother, Paul.

[Jen]

I genuinely was worried that was gonna happen, but I hadn't seen this film for such a long time.

[Caroline]

And like at one point there's a horrible scene, bridesmaid scene. Bridesmaid scene. And where the dress doesn't fit her.

[Jen]

It's her tiny, little, very slender younger stepsister. And they're talking about. She's called Christy. And they're like, oh, Christy, you look amazing. Putting the hem up and then the other one. And they don't even call her by her name.

[Caroline]

It's just. It's awful. It's awful. And that is a. There's a line of like, oh, like her father got it way wrong when he estimated her size. It's just like. And we know this character already feels weirdly about her size, and it's just so awful.

[Jen]

She actually looks really great.

[Caroline]

She's got this beautiful figure, mcafar's beautiful actor. And it's like one of the real shortcomings of the early 2000s that, like, all of society acted like. It was like she was like, a weird crush. Her and Ginnifer Goodwin.

[Jen]

Right.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

The idea that this is just sort of like, unusually placid size. Women who, like, we'd never seen in our lives before.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Someone get her a makeover, I think.

[Jen]

In probably the UK and the US and also, clearly stunning.

[Caroline]

Clearly stunning.

[Jen]

Such a weird moment in history that we lived through there.

[Caroline]

I mean, we're living through it again.

[Jen]

We are, But I think we're not quite back into the circle of shame, remember?

[Caroline]

I don't know, man. I mean, I really do. You know what? I was talking to somebody the other day who was having a real internal struggle with how many people in their life were on Ozempic. And what she was saying to me. She was like, I feel like the last 15 years where we have been talking about body positivity and body neutrality and bodies being about what they can do for you rather than what they look like. She's like, I feel like everybody was just lying until Ozempic came along, and now we're just, like, throwing that all away and being like, oh, of course we want to be thin. And I was like, I do get what you mean. It does feel like. It's just there are so many ordinary people who are not showbiz people. And I am not talking about people who need this for diabetes and blah, blah, blah and all that stuff that people need it for. Like. Like, there are ordinary people going on, like, a weight loss drug they don't need. And my friend was just like, I just feel like I've been tricked, like. And, like, it does make me think, are we going back to that naughty's moment? Obviously, we have a choice. We can just say no.

[Jen]

Some of us have to go back into the dating market where we have to learn to ask questions and be thin potentially. Oh, God, no. I do ask questions.

[Caroline]

It's not the asking the questions of the problem, it's the listening to the answers. No, I don't mean you.

[Jen]

I mean having to listen to people.

[Caroline]

That you don't care about.

[Jen]

Men.

[Caroline]

Men telling you about their little hobbies, the little sports team. Gavin's been away for five days. So I'm just going to seed gender wise.

[Jen]

God, just some of the hobbies are pretty tragic, right? I mean, look, I've got tragic hobbies, but none of the candle to, like, being really into football manager or something.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's not even real.

[Jen]

It's not even the real football.

[Caroline]

It's not even real. So. Yeah, I just think the Carmen storyline is really dramatic and really good.

[Jen]

It is one key flaw in it, which I did point out to you, and I'll point out now to the parish early. A lot of Carmen's interactions with her dad are not the interactions of a father and a daughter. They are weirdly horny.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I know what you mean.

[Jen]

I think the one right early on when she's like, I've been practicing my tennis and when you just serve me your absolute hardest. And I was like, carmen, no, that's your dad.

[Caroline]

Carmen, that's your dad.

[Jen]

That's your dad.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Gross. Again, I feel that might be a male director's input. I don't think that's America Ferreira's doing, nor do I think it's the right to be the books. Do I think that's.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I know. I do think, in defense of that choice, I do think that there is a phenomenon of that. And I think that's like, again, to make yet another Sex and City comparison. But something that we thought about a lot during the sentimental in the City episodes was that, like, a lot of the way Carrie behaves around men, which is like a little girl. Like, there's a lot with the Russians, a lot of, like, squealing and like. And like, you know, a little baby look after me. I'm a little princess. I'm precious. But a lot of it, we believe by we, I mean me and Dolly. And the kind of the core wound is the missing dad. Right. And I do think that that core wound does manifest in a lot of women when they have missing dads. They become little girls with the men they date. But I also think it works in the reverse, in that when people have a missing dad, they become. They treat their dad like their boyfriend because it's just like this guy that you don't really see whose attention you want to keep. And the only way that you've been taught to keep male attention is to sort of, like, act sort of coquettish or whatever. And I do think those wires can get crossed in both directions. And I actually think it's kind of a canny observation, but also creepy on screen. And we must remind ourselves a movie for 12 year olds.

[Jen]

Creepy on screen. But I think, yes, like, her relationship with her father is odd and constrained.

[Caroline]

And she. I think it's like, you know, she never holds him accountable for anything.

[Jen]

Yeah. And he doesn't really want to hold himself accountable.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jen]

She's just sort of left to. To manage his feelings and that whole experience.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And the whole kind of household, really, that he is sort of like, in now is obviously suiting him very well because he's a weak man with the hair of a weak man.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Is that, you know. So the whole thing is that his partner's previous partner is now in alcohol. Alcoholic Paul, the other son that she's eventually gonna fuck one day. I think he goes and visits him in Atlanta. He takes the bus from Charleston to Atlanta.

[Jen]

Is that far?

[Caroline]

That's very far.

[Jen]

I don't know these things from what.

[Caroline]

I remember of my time in that area. Very big.

[Jen]

Okay.

[Caroline]

Very big, very far. They do a lot of driving later on. They do. And it's like, oh, you know, her daughter gets upset, whatever his name is, and gets upset about it because she's not ready to see her dad yet. So we just say, Paul's away for the day. It's like, oh, this is a house that is just all about denial, repression, repression, convenient answers for complicated problems. And he's like, this suits me down to the ground because I got this daughter who I have not been being good to.

[Jen]

I've seen her about twice.

[Caroline]

I see her twice a year, and I feel just horrible about it. So if I can be with the woman and immerse myself in a lifestyle where I never have to confront anything and I can just pray every night at dinner, oh, he's a weak, weak man. A weak man. And I don't think we're. We're not at the end of the story. I think right now, like, it ends with her, like, standing up next to him on his wedding day and he has a moment of, like, oh, my daughter should be up with us. But, like, we are not at the end of the story with Carmen and her dad.

[Jen]

I feel like his wife gets Carmen Photoshopped out of the pictures because she's not wearing the right colors.

[Caroline]

The wife is fuming. The wife is so up in the traveling pants.

[Jen]

The wife who you had some beef with. The wife, specifically her choice of wedding dress.

[Caroline]

I won't be airing that here. I won't be airing that.

[Jen]

All I can say is not demure and not mindful.

[Caroline]

It was not demure. It was not mindful.

[Jen]

Yeah. I feel like Carmen's story, there's more in it. I also do still feel very odd about the fact that at the end of this film, these four girls drive anything from between 400 and 800 miles, by my estimation. I don't know, to her dad's wedding. And he's just not bothered. He hasn't tried to reach out. He's not extended any olive branches. He's not been like, no, listen, come to my wedding. It's so important to me. He doesn't even know she's there. Why is the onus on them to fix this?

[Caroline]

The onus is so.

[Jen]

Is this teaching girls to go and fix problems for men for the rest of their lives?

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. Because if we take all these messages together, it's like, you know, Bridget had this encounter on the beach, but it was her fault because she kept. She was like, you know, stalking him to the point where he couldn't say no. And the film seems to make that very clear in the way it portrays everyone. And it's like Carmen has a series of very upsetting encounters that are so bad that she leaves North Carolina and takes the bus home. And then her friends are like, well, sounds like you're being a little bit of a bitch.

[Jen]

Tibby's like, what? Like, come on, it's not that bad. Have you heard that children die sometimes?

[Caroline]

Have you heard that children die sometimes? I befriended a child this summer, and she's gonna die.

[Jen]

She already is dead by this point.

[Caroline]

So I think you should give your dad a break.

[Jen]

He's not a dead, ancient child.

[Caroline]

At least she's not a d. Child. And then she rings him, first of all, like, the first. The only thing we've heard of him is like, your dad rang to see if you got home okay. It's like, that's it. That's all we've heard.

[Jen]

He's not concerned in any way.

[Caroline]

She rings him. He's like, oh, sorry about what happened. You were upset. Let's. Let's. It's fine. She's like, no, I'm upset because I'm mad.

[Jen]

Did he not, in fact, say, don't. You don't have to apologize? And she's like, I wasn't going to. That's a good, strong moment. We like that.

[Caroline]

Good strong moment.

[Jen]

But, yeah, he's just so passive and gross and weird.

[Caroline]

Yeah, hate him.

[Jen]

We hate him.

[Caroline]

Like, yeah, Just her having to fucking father her dad. Awful.

[Jen]

Do you know who should have been sent the dying child?

[Caroline]

The weak man.

[Jen]

The weak man should have Been followed around by the ancient dying child. Like a sort of Ghost of Christmas Future or whatever. He should have been. He should have been Scrooged by Bailey.

[Caroline]

That was, you know, everything you just said. Yeah. I want you to imagine it, written it down, and I want you to imagine saying it in Trump's voice. You know, this weak man. I sent him a old, ancient child. He's gonna get Scrooge McDuff. He's gonna be visited by three ghosts in the night. It's gonna be fabulous. He's a weak man.

[Jen]

I would pay to watch that film.

[Caroline]

The failing weak man. The failing weak man. Father of America Ferreira.

[Jen]

Getting. Getting Scrooged.

[Caroline]

Getting Scrooged. Getting Scrooged.

[Jen]

A child with the soul of the book.

[Caroline]

I don't like her. She's been alive too long. She's a change, I think.

[Jen]

Yeah. In my remake of the Sister of the Travelling Pants, Bailey haunts. Or maybe in part two, Bailey comes back to haunt. Weak man.

[Caroline]

The weak, failing man.

[Jen]

Yeah. And he deserves it. And then he actually has an epiphany and sorts his fucking life out.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Awful. That marriage won't last.

[Jen]

No, of course not.

[Caroline]

That's not gonna last.

[Jen]

As soon as the kids go to.

[Caroline]

College, wherever you go, there you are. Weak man.

[Jen]

She's gonna take him for half of what he's got.

[Caroline]

She's gonna find out that you're a weak, weak man and she's gonna leave you.

[Jen]

She likes it now, but she's not gonna like it for long. No, sir.

[Caroline]

What else do we got in our document?

[Jen]

I mean, I think we've covered almost everything in my document, apart from two things. One was I just wrote. Because it's, I think, one of the final lines of the film. The pants bore witness. Question mark, question mark, question mark.

[Caroline]

The pants bore witness.

[Jen]

I'm. Listen, I'm not certain that these pants are a force for good. Now that we've reached the end of this document. That was my hot take at the beginning. I'm circling back, and I do think there's a monkey's paw going on here. I think this. I think these pants have also been around for a long time. Perhaps the ancient child's mother put a curse on them in fairyland. I don't. I don't. What. Why.

[Caroline]

Why are the pants important? So we can marvel at the US postal system, which. I enjoyed those transitions very much.

[Jen]

The bits. Yeah.

[Caroline]

Being stamped and sent and shipped and it was nice.

[Jen]

Occasionally it would just get a bit open.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I don't really understand the length of an American summer, but judging by the fact that those pants went around the.

[Caroline]

World twice to and from.

[Jen]

Well, went from Greece to America, then back to Greece, then back to America and to Mexico. And also to Mexico, I'm imagining that the American summer is at least 9 to 11 months just on normal shipping in the summer. That's fine. I'll pop it in the post. Beer tomorrow in Mexico from Greece.

[Caroline]

Well, at one point, Tibby plays as much as it costs two hours in Walmans to ship them direct overnight. So.

[Jen]

But that's just in America. She's not shipping them overnight to Greece.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. Whoever got the Lena postage thing got really screwed.

[Jen]

Really screwed. And just like I think you know when we went into railing.

[Caroline]

Yes, I remember.

[Jen]

Remember we did that. I recall back when this podcast was young and fresh and generally still on topic. We're on our holidays.

[Caroline]

So long ago.

[Jen]

I sent a post card in Italy on the fourth day of our trip.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Jen]

And it arrived back in the UK two weeks after I did. So. And that was in Naples.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

That's a big place. And Italy's not far away. That's. That's a solid five week postcard. I don't think those pants were getting anywhere fast.

[Caroline]

No.

[Jen]

To Greece. To an island in Greece, no less.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Yeah. Come on. That was amazing. Okay, so major point of fiction, the Greek postal system, which I just know in my heart not knowing much about Greece. It's not good. We said at the beginning that you didn't like the idea of kind of deconstructing like the core concept of Something Made for Children.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And I'm not going to deconstruct it. I just want to say I think an incredibly brave, bold, legendary mood. Mood move by the author of this book and the publishing house who accepted this pitch of its magical trousers.

[Caroline]

I know. It is what it is, a nuts concept.

[Jen]

What? It could have been anything. Why was it Magical Genes was Levi Swanson.

[Caroline]

But you have to. You have to give it to them that even if you have, you have never seen these movies or whatever. I think the Sisterhood, the traveling pans, has become like kind of a. Yeah. Meme. It's a jokey thing. It's a quick. Like people know it. It's a very sticky concept. Like the crotch of those jeans. I'm sure they said they would never wash. Yeah.

[Jen]

Awful things have happened in those trousers.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

Someone neared. Someone had a very, very disturbing first sexual experience.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

But I just. I'm just thinking, can you imagine? You're Sitting there in your little writer's space and you think, magic trousers.

[Caroline]

Magic trousers.

[Jen]

And you make it. I think that's amazing. The creative creativity is fantastic. And I think.

[Caroline]

I love it. Yeah. I love it as a concept. I think it's wonderful.

[Jen]

I just think it's just. It's so. It's so out there.

[Caroline]

It's so. You're dead. Right? So out there.

[Jen]

Like, if someone had been like, oh, there's a. You know, like, we all watched the queen's nose probably growing up, where it's like a coin. You rubbed her nose and then wish happened. Or Bernard's watch. But someone was like, ah, magic jeans.

[Caroline]

Magic jeans. Why not?

[Jen]

The jeans are like the least of all of the artifacts in the world that you would expect to be magical. Like all the kind of ancient talismans and strange things you can find pair of jeans you find in a vintage shop. What's the backstory? Do we ever know where they came from? Are they witches jeans?

[Caroline]

Are they witches jeans? Is there ever a prequel? There is something. Right. There's something very eternal. An American and teenage. Right. And it's very. About a pair of jeans. Right. It is like an icon of. Of like the mid century teenager. Yeah, yeah.

[Jen]

But like, yes, I think. I think I'm coming from obviously, maybe more of like a European folk and fairy tale tradition where, like a dress spun from silver and moonlight jeans. Jeans, invented as lycopene workman's attire in the late 19th century, hasn't got the same kind of like, mythological association.

[Caroline]

No.

[Jen]

And I think that's what's nice about that.

[Caroline]

I think that's quite nice.

[Jen]

I like that. I think it's. I think it makes you say it makes it sticky because you're just like, well, why are they. I want to know who made the jeans. I want to know who wove that denim, and I want to know who sewed those jeans.

[Caroline]

So any parting thoughts on this Is the Traveling Pants or Blake Lively and her reputation as it stands, or even the Interleukins. I do know for sure that the famous thing about this movie is that all four of the girls are still very good friends and very supportive of each other. Yeah, yeah. Every now and then, one of them will post on their Instagram, like, we've met up again or whatever. Like, they get together a lot. I think they all got together to support America Ferreira for her Oscar nomination as well. Which is weird when you consider they would have shot very few scenes together.

[Jen]

Yeah. Like three.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Maybe that's the sweet Spot.

[Jen]

That's the right amount to shoot. To be like forever friends.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And they shot another one, I guess so. Nice.

[Jen]

Oh, okay. No, listen, I think. I don't think this movie either incriminates or exonerates Blake Lively in the Colleen Hoover drama.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

I think it just suggests that she's always had really good hair.

[Caroline]

There's at one point. And she knows the power of that hair.

[Jen]

Oh, she knows the power of her hair.

[Caroline]

But you know what? I do not hold against her at all. And people are saying that, like, she's using her platform for. It ends with us to talk about her hair care range. Good. Because I think whatever Blake Leiby's putting in her hair and has been putting in her hair for the last 20 years, I want her. Some of you mean.

[Jen]

It's not Herbal Essences.

[Caroline]

At one point, before she goes out to have her upsetting sexual experience at the beach, she hats a bit of.

[Jen]

A Herbal Essence serum.

[Caroline]

She put some. What looks like frizzies through there. It's like, oh, wow, serum.

[Jen]

Yeah. I don't believe that she was using that. No, I think, look, I think Blake Lively. I think. I think we're still. We're still on her side. We still think she's good.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I think she's fine. I just.

[Jen]

I'm not going to come down hard as a bait, as a huge apologist, but I'm just going to be like, listen, there are bigger fish to fry than Blake.

[Caroline]

There are bigger fish to fry. And I just don't think there is ever a good enough excuse to come after a lady that hard on in the Internet.

[Jen]

No.

[Caroline]

Unless she has done something very terrible. Like, you know, I don't know, like, unless, like, many people have lost their jobs because of her. For example.

[Jen]

Yeah, there. There are definitely people who are people, including women, who've done dreadful things.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Jen]

And who?

[Caroline]

Elizabeth Holmes. Go after her.

[Jen]

Liz Truss.

[Caroline]

Liz Truss.

[Jen]

Go for her.

[Caroline]

Fine. Some actor who you don't think is handling the marketing of her film well enough. Go outside and touch some fucking grass.

[Jen]

Like, come on and touch some grass. Yeah, no, I'm with you there. I'm with you there. Having not seen the film.

[Caroline]

No.

[Jen]

Maybe we'll see it and we'll be like, we take it back. We've been to attraction. This is actually appalling.

[Caroline]

This is appalling.

[Jen]

I think we should see it. Not right now.

[Caroline]

Notably, I said nothing.

[Jen]

Silence is a response.

[Caroline]

Silence is its own response. Anyway, we gotta go to bed.

[Jen]

Go to bed for us to sleepy.

[Caroline]

This has been accidental garbage.

[Jen]

It has.

[Caroline]

Until next week, everyone.

[Jen]

Until next week.

[Caroline]

Bye. Be nice to break by Blaine. She's just like us.

[Mark]

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