Dragonheart (& dragons in general) with Samantha Shannon

Summary

Sentimental Garbage Podcast Summary: "Dragonheart (& dragons in general)" with Samantha Shannon

Sentimental Garbage, hosted by Caroline O'Donoghue, delves into the cultural phenomena that elicit strong emotions yet often come shrouded in societal scrutiny. In the episode titled "Dragonheart (& dragons in general)" released on May 29, 2025, Caroline engages in an insightful conversation with acclaimed author Samantha Shannon, exploring the beloved Dragonheart film series and the broader mythology of dragons.

Introduction and Upcoming Events

The episode begins with Samantha Shannon excitedly announcing the return of Sentimental Garbage to the Union Chapel on June 14 for a launch event promoting her new book, Skip Shock. She describes the event as a blend of the podcast's usual fun and debauchery with additional magical elements, including a live tarot session by their friend Jen County and performances by Alex Haddo. [00:33-01:50]

Revisiting Dragonheart

Caroline expresses her deep affection for the original Dragonheart film, recounting how it captivated her as a child and lamenting how few of her audience share this experience. She states, “it’s so available,” highlighting that all five films in the franchise are accessible on Amazon Prime, which allowed her to revisit them comprehensively. [02:00-03:03]

Samantha agrees, noting the rarity of accessible sequels and commending Dragonheart’s availability. She appreciates the blend of humor and heartfelt storytelling, comparing it to the playful fairy tale elements found in films like Shrek. [03:09-03:48]

Analysis of Dragonheart’s Themes and Characters

Caroline provides a detailed overview of the Dragonheart plot, focusing on the complex relationship between the knight Bowen and the dragon Draco. She explains how Bowen’s disillusionment with the concept of knighthood mirrors his internal struggle, which is reignited upon witnessing his son’s transformation into a reflection of his tyrannical father, King Inan. This leads Bowen to wage a relentless crusade against dragons until he forms an unlikely alliance with Draco to overthrow Inan’s oppressive reign. [11:37-15:52]

Samantha highlights the tonal dissonance in Dragonheart, where the film oscillates between buddy comedy and tragic drama. She remarks, “it has that kind of playful fairy tale… sort of the hero's journey,” appreciating how the friendship between Bowen and Draco grounds the emotional weight of the narrative. [16:55-18:17]

Dragons in Mythology: Western vs. Eastern Perspectives

The conversation shifts to the portrayal of dragons in different cultures. Caroline contrasts Western dragons, often depicted as malevolent creatures hoarding gold, with Eastern dragons associated with benevolence and natural elements like water. She mentions her own work, where she integrates these diverse dragon mythologies, reflecting their symbolic versatility. [38:52-40:42]

Samantha adds that modern fantasy often reflects societal fears, such as environmental consciousness, with dragons embodying natural disasters or technological threats. She observes, “they are very versatile in terms of that they can portray so many things,” underscoring dragons' role as metaphors for various existential anxieties. [40:51-55:23]

Personal Experiences and Influences

Caroline shares her nostalgic memories of watching Dragonheart as a child, explaining how it ignited her lifelong fascination with dragons. She recounts recording the film onto a tape recorder to listen to it at night, illustrating the profound impact it had on her imagination and writing. [26:04-30:54]

Samantha reflects on her first viewing, initially struggling with the film’s tonal shifts but ultimately appreciating the depth and chemistry between the characters. She emphasizes how Dragonheart combines humor with deeper themes of sacrifice and honor, making it a unique entry in the fantasy genre. [30:54-33:09]

Dragons as Metaphors in Literature and Society

The hosts delve into how dragons serve as powerful symbols in storytelling. Caroline discusses how dragons in her books represent different facets of nature and magic, drawing inspiration from Dragonheart. She explains her alchemical magic system where dragons embody elemental forces, such as fire from the earth or harmony from the stars, linking back to her formative experiences with the Dragonheart series. [49:08-50:31]

Samantha expands on this by considering dragons’ roles in reflecting social fears and aspirations, such as environmental degradation or the relentless pursuit of power. She connects this to contemporary societal issues, suggesting that dragons in fantasy can encapsulate the anxieties of their times. [54:22-55:23]

Reflections on Fantasy Genre Trends

Both Caroline and Samantha critique the predominance of "Grimdark" fantasy, epitomized by series like Game of Thrones, which emphasize moral ambiguity and dark themes. Caroline advocates for a return to simpler, more whimsical fantasy narratives that celebrate wonder and heroism without the pervasive darkness. She appreciates Dragonheart for its balanced approach, where moments of levity enhance the emotional depth of the story. [78:09-80:13]

Samantha concurs, highlighting the importance of maintaining elements of joy and magic in fantasy. She argues that while dark themes add complexity, the genre also thrives on the sense of awe and the fantastical, urging creators to embrace a variety of tones to enrich their narratives. [80:33-82:06]

Samantha Shannon’s Works and Influences

The discussion transitions to Samantha Shannon’s literary contributions, particularly her Priory of the Orange Tree and Bone Season series. Caroline praises Samantha’s ability to infuse her work with rich dragon lore and balanced magic systems. Samantha shares her process of integrating diverse dragon mythologies into her writing, aiming to create a nuanced portrayal that transcends traditional stereotypes. [83:03-89:00]

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

In wrapping up, Caroline encourages listeners to watch the Dragonheart films for their wholesome and inspiring narratives. She highlights the enduring appeal of dragons as symbols of magic and hope, advocating for their continued presence in storytelling. Samantha echoes this sentiment, appreciating the blend of darkness and wonder in Dragonheart and emphasizing the genre’s potential to evoke both awe and introspection. [89:00-90:42]

Notable Quotes

• Caroline O'Donoghue [02:00]: “I need it to be more than that because I need it to be at least 75%.”
• Samantha Shannon [16:55]: “It's a buddy comedy. And it's, like, really fun. And, you know, they have great chemistry.”
• Caroline O'Donoghue [38:52]: “Draco shares his heart with an unworthy human, basically, is the premise of the first film.”
• Samantha Shannon [54:22]: “I think that it might be a dark fantasy, but it's also the genre of wonder.”

Final Remarks

This episode of Sentimental Garbage offers a heartfelt exploration of the Dragonheart franchise and the multifaceted role of dragons in modern mythology and literature. Through Caroline and Samantha's engaging dialogue, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the enduring legacy of dragons as symbols of both darkness and hope, echoing broader societal themes and personal narratives.

Transcript

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[Samantha Shannon]

Hello there. I just wanted to pop in before the podcast starts with a very exciting announcement, which is that Sentimental Garbage is coming back to the Union Chapel on June 14 for a launch event from my book Skip Shock. I'm so excited to be invited back to the Union Chapel. It's one of my favorite venues I've ever done. It's such an amazing space and honestly, last time we went was probably the drunkest I've ever been on stage in my life. This time we're coming back to promote my new book Skipshock. It's a little bit of a launch event, so going to have all the kind of fun and debauchery of a regular Sentimental Garbage live with a little bit of a magical chat thrown in. It's also going to be the Sentimental Garbage live debut of our good friend Jen county, who will be doing some tarot business on stage while Alex Haddo, who always does the live shows with me, is going to be there as well. And we're just going to have the best fucking crack on stage. I cannot wait to do it. So it's June 14th, the show, the tickets are in the show notes and I can't wait to see you there. Hello and welcome to Magical Garbage, the podcast where we share our hearts with undeserving princes. My name is Caroline and I represent a miracle in the field of cgi. And joining me is the voice of Sean Connery. It's Samantha Shannon.

[Caroline]

Excellent Scottish accent there.

[Samantha Shannon]

I'll be doing the whole podcast like this.

[Caroline]

Well, thank you so much for having me. This is such a fun opportunity because Dragonheart was my absolute, absolute fixation when I was a child.

[Samantha Shannon]

I can really see it having read your work. I can really see the through line between them. And can I just say, it's just beautiful to see someone's inspirations not just being sort of Arthurian legend or Tolkien or whatever, but also like A vaguely schlocky, really fun dragon vehicle of the early 90s. It was just like. It was very dear to me to be like, the author of the Priory of the Orange Tree bloody loves this movie and it made me feel very close to you.

[Caroline]

Oh, honestly, it's such a great, fun film, but it's also very heartbreaking, heartfelt. And it's really interesting when I go on tour because often I will say to people who've seen Dragonheart and I get them to put their hands up and I just don't think enough people have seen it. It's like I get maybe a third of the audience and I'm like, I need it to be more than that. I need it to be at least 75%.

[Samantha Shannon]

Well, that will change after this because often people request things and they're very hard to track down or they're not available on streaming. This could not be more available.

[Caroline]

Oh, it's so available. It's so available. I tried to get all of the. I was just. I basically wanted to watch the whole franchise for this podcast and I found all of them on Amazon prime. So that's very easy.

[Samantha Shannon]

Ready to go. They're ready to stick them in your face. You know, the whole. There's five Dragonheart movies.

[Caroline]

Five, which is three more than I realized. I saw the first one when it came out in 1990. It was either 95 or 96, I think. 95. And then I remember seeing the direct to video sequel, which is called A New Beginning. But then I had no idea that there had been three direct to video prequels made. And I was delighted when I found out about this, but also terrified because I have been really burned by seeing direct to video sequels and prequels to some of my favourites, like the Hunchback.

[Samantha Shannon]

Of Notre Dame, Pocahontas To A New World.

[Caroline]

Oh, and that. Yeah, just. I mean, the Hunchback really hurt me because that was basically my favorite Disney movie, apart from Beauty and the Bees. Yeah. I mean, I could do a whole podcast just on Hunchback.

[Samantha Shannon]

I would kind of love that, honestly.

[Caroline]

I mean, look, if they ever make the live action Disney one, let me know. I will be right here to discuss that entirely. Oh, my God.

[Samantha Shannon]

The amount of backlash they've got for Snow White and the Seven Dwarves or whatever. Can you imagine them?

[Caroline]

I don't know if they could do Hunchback. I mean, I think they might have been trying to. I don't know if it's been shown.

[Samantha Shannon]

Hunchback isn't problematic, it's just Problems.

[Caroline]

It's just problems. I don't. I'm not sure I trust Disney to do it properly. Especially because the sequel just completely undoes the message of the first movie, which is so damn. Yeah, Cosimiro gets a girlfriend. What is that about? The whole thing was that he accepts that he's more than, you know, the fact that Esmeralda was going to fall in love with him. Like, he accepts it, he allows them to just be friends and he's happy for them and then he's the hero of the town. But anyway, I know I'm not here to talk about Hunchback, but I was very burned by that. So I was terrified of seeing the three prequels that were made for Dragonheart. And actually I had the best time. Like, they are so genuinely funny, actually quite tightly written, I thought, considering.

[Samantha Shannon]

Well, the thing is the same with dragons themselves, right? As a piece of myth or whatever. It's like when a franchise has been going on for 30 odd years, it, by virtue of repeating certain beats in the story, it's like in a Dragonheart film, we always have this. It's sort of gains meaning in that same, that white Lotus monologue that's going viral. Time gives life meaning in the same way that the fact that we've been repeating dragon lore to each other for thousands of years and the fact that we've been repeating dragon heart lore to each other for 30 years gives it meaning, right?

[Caroline]

And it was really fascinating seeing all five films because like I said, I only saw Dragonheart and the sequel when I was a kid. So when I looked at all five of them alongside each other, I was thinking, oh my gosh, there are stock characters, there are things that happen in every film and then you can really tell when they break from that pattern and something different happens. Like, for example, there's always. The main character is always, you know, a man who is either a knight or an aspiring knight, or, you know, someone who could be noble but is maybe disillusioned or he's too young and naive and doesn't really understand what being a knight is all about. And then you have the bumbling sidekick who in the first two films is a monk. And then there's randomly a druid's apprentice in the third one. What is that about? And then you have the warrior woman. So there's Kara in the first film, for example. And yeah, there's just these, these characters who recur. And of course the theme of the dragon giving half of their heart to a human comes up. You Know, hence the title. But yeah, it's just so interesting when you see that there are sort of genres within Dragonheart. There are scenes that come up again and again. Like there's always a scene pretty much of a heartfelt conversation with a dragon by a fire under the stars. And that's in basically every film.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's really nice. Like, what's lovely about watching it? So I didn't watch all five. Cause I was doing it in a single day.

[Caroline]

Understandable.

[Samantha Shannon]

With Friend of the Pod Gen County. But we got three in and what was lovely, and we watched all the trailers and the bits of clips and things. But it's like. Because fantasy itself, in terms of visually has been on such a story since Dragonheart, the first one came out in the 90s, that like. It's like, interesting to see it as a kind of a reflecting pool for whatever was the taste for fantasy at the time. So in Dragonheart, the first one, you're seeing very much a Robin Hood, Prince of Thebes kind of vibe.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Samantha Shannon]

Like, there's like Thebes thieves. This sort of sense of like, really we're going to take a country that is cheap to film in and we were going to put lots of people in brown.

[Caroline]

Yes. It's Slovakia that first ones filmed.

[Samantha Shannon]

Slovakia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And lots of peasants in brown and tilling fields and such.

[Caroline]

A lot of peasants.

[Samantha Shannon]

A lot.

[Caroline]

In general.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, yeah. A lot of peasants in general. And sort of a ruined castle or whatever. And then we just sort of like go for it. And that is so many movies of that era.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Samantha Shannon]

And I kind of. I feel such nostalgia for those kinds of early 90s, late 80s fantasy films because they kind of represent such a lightly signed contract between the audience and the person trying to represent magic. You know, this thing of like, lickers and just go with it. This is a peasant, this is a fair lady, this is a knight, this is a dragon. Go for it.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's very kind of medieval English fantasy.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Just very. There's not a ton of explanation. It's just, you know, we have a king and a knight and like you say the peasants. And actually seeing the. When I was looking at it, there is that through line of the peasants generally being the main characters. And I think actually now in modern fantasy, and I'm guilty of this myself, a lot of it tends to be focused on the monarchs, you know, the monarchs and the perspective characters. And I do that because I'm fascinated by monarchy and the pressures of monarchy. I like core politics. I'm interested in Monarchy as a kind of microcosm of the pressure on women to have children. So I've always been fascinated by that in my work. But actually you don't see a lot of fantasy where the peasants are the one rising up against the monarchy, or certainly not that I've read in recent years. I feel like there is quite a focus on royals. And in Dragonheart, it's not really like that. It's very much. No. The peasants are the heroes rising up against the oppressor. And I love that about it. It was quite inspiring to see that. Cause I was like, you know, I think there should be more of that. But I think we have this idea that the peasants are not interesting or romantic. It's like in George R.R. martin's work. Right. We don't really hear from the small folk very much. It's all focused on the high lords and their Game of Thrones. Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

Unless they're being murdered.

[Caroline]

Unless they're being murdered in the background. Yeah. And I actually love that Dragonheart has this relentless. On the ordinary person, like the people that are being oppressed by these systems and actually fighting against them with the help of a CGI dragon.

[Samantha Shannon]

That's really. I hadn't actually quite thought about it. You're right, it is. And there was a moment when me and Jen last night were watching the third one, and there's this really beautiful small performance in that direct to streamer, quite cheaply made. Lovely movie. Which is there's a kind of a character of a potter who takes in sort of the chosen one character in this.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Samantha Shannon]

And he. It begins with kind of like this kind of squire who's trying to be a knight, who's supposed to sort of be harassing these villagers and these peasants on behalf of the monarch and extorting them for protection money, essentially, which is kind of what knighthood sort of devolved to.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Samantha Shannon]

Or kind of was. And then he's about to smash this beautifully made pot. And the potter says, have you ever spent a whole day doing just one thing? He's like, that's me in that pot. Like I've worked. And he kind of really underlines in this really gorgeous performance. Like, I've spent so much time on this in a really heartbreaking way. And we both just kind of sat up being like, really here for this potter.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's lovely. And then the potter's wife gives Gareth that necklace that she was going to give to her son to give to his true love, but they weren't able to have children. And Then it's just really lovely.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's just simply nice.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's very wholesome. That's how I would describe Dragonheart films. It's just very kind of cheesy, but wholesome.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. And then that's. That's kind of interesting about, like, how they sort of reflect how different sort of fantasy trends are reflected. Because once we get to sort of Lord of the Rings and then eventually Game of Thrones era, there's like, as soon as these movies enter the timeline with Game of Thrones, they become so physically darker. Like, it's hard to look at the action, because I remember that being a complaint of Game of Thrones early days. Right.

[Caroline]

I remember that episode, the Long Night.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yes.

[Caroline]

It's not even the Early Days. It's really recent. I just remember the Long Night. You could not see what was happening in that entire episode. And then when I think when people said about it, they kind of made out like we were supposed to be adjusting our TV settings, and it was so frustrating. So I know it's meant to be dark. Don't get me wrong. The whole point of the Long Night is that it's dark, but. But we really can't see.

[Samantha Shannon]

We can't see.

[Caroline]

I cannot see what Daenerys is doing on that dragon right now.

[Samantha Shannon]

And as well, when it's like there's so many characters, most of them are white men. We can't tell them apart. It's very dark. Is this significant?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

But to go back to the original Dragonheart, why we're here, can you give us a brief outline of the plot?

[Caroline]

Yes, I can. So Dragonheart begins with a knight called Bowen, and Bowen is in charge of training a young prince called Inen. And Inen is very obviously taking after his father, King Frain, who is an evil king. And it's strange because apparently I think the movie's set in 984 AD, which actually.

[Samantha Shannon]

Exactly. I have it written down here.

[Caroline]

Great. I remember that very distinctly because I hadn't realized that until recently that it's actually set in a period of English history. King Frayne is not real. This would have been the period of Aethelred. The Unready. So I guess this is an alternate history. Anyway, so King Frayne is evil. He oppresses the peasants brutally, and King. King Ion is very clearly taking after him. So there's a scene where the young Prince Ion says he's like, the peasants are revolting. And one of King Frain's lackeys says they've always been Revolting prince. But now they're rebelling. And I was like, that's a. It's a good joke, but a horrible meaning.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

So anyway, King Frayne is killed during this peasant uprising and Inan takes his father's crown. But during this moment where he takes the crown, a young peasant woman called Kara falls on Inan and he gets stabbed in the heart. And his mother, King. Sorry, Queen Aeslyn. And I'm aware that that is the incorrect pronunciation, but that's how it's pronounced. In Dragonheart, Queen Aislinn takes the injured Eynon to this cave, to the dragon in the cave. And it's implied that Aislinn is a Celt and that she has been married against her will to King Frayne, who she obviously hates. So she asks the dragon for help and says, you know, I need you to save my son. The dragon is clearly reluctant because he knows that King Frayne is evil. There's a moment where he' says, is this why you've come, dragonslayer's wife? And she comes back with dragonslayer's widow. It's amazing.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's really good.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Anyway, so you find out that dragons have the ability to share their heart with a dying human, which bonds them together so they can feel each other's pain and so on. Bowen is present when the dragon heals Inon. And at first he's very grateful. He says to the dragon, my sword and my service are yours. He's delighted by this. But you soon see Inan turning into his father. This happens pretty much immediately. He tries to blind a peasant who is. I think the peasant says something that he doesn't like or something, and he becomes immediately very aggressive. Bowen sees this and is in incredible denial about it. He is certain that the dragon's heart is what poisoned Inon. And so he swears revenge on all dragons from this day forward, just in an attempt to kill this one that he thinks poisoned Inan. So then you cut to X number of years later. Bowen has turned into this guy who is a dragon slayer, just going about the land killing dragons. You see him kill a dragon in front of a monk who joins him and thinks he's amazing and kind of joins him as, like, his bard. He's writing about his amazing deeds. You see Bowen find a dragon who says he is the last dragon. And because he's the last dragon, Bowen now has a problem. Because he's been making money from killing dragons. He and the dragon come to a bargain where they will trick the peasantry into Basically giving him money to kill a dragon, but it will just be the dragon pretending to die over and over again, which is kind of a fun concept. Not very noble, obviously. So you can see that Bowen has become very disillusioned, and he just kind of fleeces people for money now. He doesn't care about nobility or honor anymore. And then very slowly, Bowen gets drawn into the idea of helping the peasants revolt against Inan, who he slowly comes to accept he's actually just a bad person. And the dragon's heart did not poison him. He just. Yeah. And also, the problem is the dragon's heart has turned inen immortal. He cannot be killed unless the dragon is killed. The dragon eventually gets the name Draco, so I can stop referring to him as the dragon, which is confusing. And it's basically a story about how Draco and Bowen bond. And Draco reminds Bowen of the importance of honour and what's known as the old code, which is a code of knighthood passed down from King Arthur that Bowen used to believe in and then became disillusioned. I don't think I'm explaining this very well. I think it's too much.

[Samantha Shannon]

This is a very bedtime story.

[Caroline]

I love it. So, yeah, anyway, Bowen teams up with Kara, who is a peasant woman who wants to fight Inan. And Kara's been failing to persuade the peasantry to rise against Inan for years because every time they've rebelled, they've been brutally crushed. But this time, they have Draco on their side, so they might have a chance of doing it. And I don't. This is clearly a spoiler, but this movie came out in 1995, so I'm hoping it doesn't matter. In the end, they realize they have to kill Draco in order to kill Inan, because Inan can be stabbed, he can be thrown off a building, but if Draco is still alive, he will also still be alive. So it's basically this tragic story of Bowen making friends with this dragon, the last dragon, and then having to kill him. And it's just. It's so cheesy, but also so sad. And the ending is so tragic when you know, Draco, the dragon is begging Bowen to kill him. He's like, strike, please. And Bowen just can't do it. And, yeah, that's pretty much it. It's a story about a disillusioned knight recovering his sense of honor after teaming up with the last dragon to fleece peasants.

[Samantha Shannon]

Well, it's like, you know, it's. It is really a beautiful Story. But it's like. Because I was watching it for the first time yesterday, you know, that thing, your story brain, your sort of primordial campfire story brain that just clicks into the hero's journey or whatever. I sort of struggled at first with being. Because, like, tonally, it doesn't quite match up with what the film is about kind of thing. Sometimes it's like there's, like, these lovely scenes, like, where they're quite like comedy scenes. I mean, lots of it has a lot in common tonally, with Shrek, I would say. Like, it has that kind of playful fairy tale. Like, we all know this thing about, you know, stories and myth. How about we subvert it in this way? How about the Knight and the dragon have a kind of a con artist sort of.

[Caroline]

It's like a buddy comedy.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, it's a buddy comedy. And it's, like, really fun. And, you know, they have great chemistry.

[Caroline]

Oh, they do, yeah, they really do.

[Samantha Shannon]

Dennis Quaid and Sean Connery as Dragon. And then we have this sort of turn which is, I mean, kind of the emotional underpinning of Bowen's character is like somebody who is like, somebody who was once lived by, as you say, this old code of chivalry, which is just sort of like, you know, in this film, almost a replacement for a religion, really.

[Caroline]

Oh, it is, yeah. I think it is. It's religiously. It's like an Arthurian religion, essentially. Yes.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. Which I'd love to hear more about that, if you know anything more about that.

[Caroline]

I do now. Yeah. I've seen all of the films, but I can actually. I think I can recite the Old Code from memory. Please. I think actually the full Old Code is like three verses long, but they only ever quote the main verse in the movie. So it's a knight is sworn to valor. His heart knows only virtue, his blade defends the helpless, his might upholds the weak. His word speaks only truth, and his wrath undoes the wicked. So those are the central tenets of this sort of knightly pseudo religion. So it's basically, be a good person, don't attack innocent people, pretty much. And that's the code that Bowen lives by. But you don't really get a sense of where Bowen learned that. If it's something that's just been passed down, certainly implied that the Celts had a relationship with dragons. And apparently Merlin kept company with the first dragons and they wrote the Old Code together. And King Arthur is idealized as the ultimate romantic ideal of a king. And it seems to just Be that it's kind of just like. Be like King Arthur and don't be cruel to the peasants, pretty much. Which Inan is clearly not doing.

[Samantha Shannon]

I am so, like, in terms of actual history, I am not versed enough in this whole thing. And I think part of that is just not having the special interest of it and also not being English. So I think maybe King Arthur is just like you grew up with it a bit more here in like King George and the Dragon and stuff. Can you explain to me, like, I'm 4 King Arthur fake.

[Caroline]

I mean, maybe.

[Samantha Shannon]

Maybe like fake like Jesus Fig. Right.

[Caroline]

He's legendary for sure. I don't. I don't think he's been properly established as a historical figure. He's a romantic legendary figure. I mean, yeah, it could be similar to Jesus in that there's historical. I mean, I didn't specialize in Arthur at any point during my studies.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

But, yeah, he's mostly considered a legendary figure, I would say.

[Samantha Shannon]

Right.

[Caroline]

Rather than a solidly historical one.

[Samantha Shannon]

So. But like, there was definitely a point in time, it seems, even outside of this film, where people were treating sort of the sort of knights at the round table as a kind of a pseudo history, right?

[Caroline]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's considered somehow, I suppose, part of British history, but it's just. It's very knitted into British culture and history. But I do think it's not officially proven that Arthur existed, but I could be completely wrong about that. But yeah, it's kind of this romantic, magical idea of the past, I suppose. And from what I can tell, Arthur in this case represents, you know, Britain in sort of standing against its oppressors, like the Roman Empire, for example, and he is knitted into kind of Celtic Brittonic mythology. And you see this in the third movie, the Sorcerer's Curse. Cause you see the kind of the Scottish, like the Scottish Celts, essentially, who are.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yes, it's dealing with Hadrian's Wall and the fall of the Roman Empire in that movie.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's certain. Hadrian's Wall. And you can see that the Southerners are clearly meant to be the oppressors. The Celts in the north have a romantic kind of relationship with dragons and they honor dragon lore in the way that the Southerners clearly don't. And that's similar with the Saxons in the Dragonheart film, they hunt and kill dragons, whereas the kind of original people of Britain don't do that. And they have a friendship and an understanding with them that is clearly threatened by the time of Dragonheart, Yeah. And I think it seems to be linked to the Druids as well in the third film. But, yeah, the basic lore is that dragons come from the storm stars in this one, interestingly. So the whole Dragonheart premise is that dragons come to the Earth in the form of comets, which I think, again, happens at the beginning of the third film where they see this comet going overhead and Gareth, the main character, runs to find it because he thinks it's gonna have gold in it. And instead he finds a clutch of dragon eggs being guarded by a dragon. So, yeah, they come from the stars and then when they die, they are supposed to. They can go to dragon heaven, but they have to be righteous in order to get there. So a dragon who has failed, a good dragon, will just disappear into the aether, essentially. But if they've proven themselves as worthy, they will be accepted into the dragon's heaven, which is actually the constellation Draco. So every time a dragon dies, a new star is added to the constellation. And I think that's pretty much as much lore as we get. I think they came down from the stars at some point. They teamed up with Merlin and Arthur and that was it. They wrote the old code together. And now the films are just about people being alienated and estranged from the old code and us having to go back to what Draco calls the once ways, which were presumably when dragons and knights lived in harmony together.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's really nice.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's a simple premise, but it's nice you say the simple prose.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's actually like pretty complicated world building.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's probably me explaining it badly because I don't actually think it's that complicated. I think it's just. Yeah, dragons come from the stars, come to Earth, they want to be friends with humans and then humans become corrupt. It's actually quite horrible seeing how cruel a lot of humans are to dragons in these films. They do nothing wrong at any point. They are just about wanting to protect humankind and doing the right thing. But often the humans that they team up with are just mean to them. Like, there's always a scene of the human shouting at the dragon and just being unkind. And I'm like, will you please stop kicking this lovely dragon who's done nothing wrong? And this happens in the fourth. Sorry, the fifth film, Vengeance. It's the one with Helena Bonnen Carter.

[Samantha Shannon]

I mean, looks incredible. I'm ashamed I didn't get to that one because it looks really good.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's interesting, the premise of that one. We randomly Move out of Britain in that one. And we go to kind of Wallachia instead. Everyone still has an English accent, but again, we follow a young man who sees his family being murdered by these mercenaries and he goes to find a dragon, and the dragon won't help him enact vengeance, basically, because, again, dragons are noble and she doesn't want him to go down the path of venge because she sees that as a bad thing. But then the humans just shout at her when she doesn't want to help them get revenge on people. It's just so frustrating to watch.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. It kind of veers between the way that people treat dragons in these movies, between, like, you are this kind of, like this specter of great evil and power, and then once humans find out that they're not, they just treat them like big dogs and they're like, no.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It's so frustrating because these beautiful, ancient, mythical creatures and there's always just some upstart human shouting at them and everyone.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But, yeah, I think there's only one example of a dragon being bad in the films that I can remember, which is in Dragon A New Beginning, which is the sequel, there's a dragon called Griffin who. I don't remember the exact lore behind it, but Griffin was a bad dragon and was defeated. And then he comes back in this film and then he has to be defeated again.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, comes back as a fascist.

[Caroline]

He comes back as a fascist named Osric. He's like a human. I think it's. Or is it that. No, Osric is the antagonist, and then he gets hold of Griffin's heart and puts it inside him and then he turns into Griffin, which is a piece of lore that I don't think ever returns in the franchise, that if you stick a whole dragon's heart in you, you will just turn into one. And it's like a sort of shriveled, desiccated heart from eons ago. But, yeah, it's an interesting premise, but that's the basic law behind it. Come from the stars. They can share their hearts and they normally pick. Well. Yeah, Draco shares his heart with an unworthy human, basically, is the premise of the first film.

[Samantha Shannon]

But I want to know how this affected you as a young kid. What was the experience of watching it and what was the experience of rewatching it like for you?

[Caroline]

My memory of seeing Dragonheart for the first time is so vivid because I went to see it for my birthday and I'm pretty sure it must have been. I think it came out in October 1995. And I was born in November 91. So I was really young when I saw it, probably too young. I remember that my parents took me and a small group of my friends to see it and I was absolutely transfixed from the second this came on screen. I had never seen anything like it. I don't think I'd really encountered dragons at all as a concept before this point. And I just remember sitting in the cinema, like you know, having my popcorn and the darkness and just seeing that opening scene where Bowen is like kind of sparring with Inan on this beautiful crumbling white castle. And I was just completely fixated on it. I remember distinctly that one of my friends started crying when there was a sword fight a bit later that was a bit more intense and I went, shut up, Natasha.

[Samantha Shannon]

Shut up, Natasha.

[Caroline]

I was furious cause like my friends were all scared and I was like, this is amazing. Shut up cinema. Yeah. And I don't think I fully understood what was happening because, you know, I was five.

[Samantha Shannon]

I mean, that is a brave little five year old. There's some like, you know, stuff here. There's some gore here, you know, there's blood.

[Caroline]

It's not really suitable for children. I think it's pg, so it's like.

[Samantha Shannon]

There'S an implied assault. You know, this.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I actually, I don't think I picked that up. I mean, you don't really pick that kind of thing up as a kid. But when I rewatched it, I was like, oh, Inan is being. Oh, he's creepy. Wow. I did not. I mean, I was very scared of Inan when I was a kid. In fact, seeing David Thewlis in anything else ever since, I always think of him as Inan. Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

And he's Professor Lupin from Harry Potter, isn't he?

[Caroline]

He's Professor Lupin. So yeah, every time I saw him I would just become really confused. Cause he's imprinted in my head as Inan and he plays the role so well. Like he's got this kind of very leonine sort of like creepiness about him.

[Samantha Shannon]

I gotta say. Of all the stock characters in kind of medieval adjacent fantasy, the kind of inbred freak sadist prince is always my fav.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And there's no real reason for it apart from his father clearly being evil.

[Samantha Shannon]

He just sucks.

[Caroline]

He just sucks. And he clearly, he thinks of power as being just oppressing other people. As far as I can tell, there's not really a huge rationale behind why Inan is evil. Like he doesn't really get A backstory other than his dad was evil.

[Samantha Shannon]

And the dad doesn't get a backstory either, really, because he dies five minutes into the film. Well, I guess they suck.

[Caroline]

Yeah. All you see is the dad burning peasants houses for no reason and then the peasants kill him. So, yeah, you just. And also you see who he was through his wife's attitude towards him. Again, it's very strongly implied that the queen did not marry him out of love. There's a moment later where she says to Kara, like, I won't let you suffer the same fate as me. So clearly she was given to him in marriage and she's very much a prisoner of that marriage. But, yeah, seeing Inan, I was terrified of him as a child. But I loved Draco so much. I was. Again, I hadn't really seen a CGI creation like Draco before. And I think this was only possible because they had the tech from Jurassic Park.

[Samantha Shannon]

Jurassic Park, Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so Dennis Quaid, who plays Bowen, is acting at a tennis ball on a stick for the whole movie, which is incredible. And he gives such an emotional performance. But, yeah, so I just. I remember seeing it as a kid and I can't remember why, but I basically made a tape recording of it. So I had the video playing and then I recorded it on my list, little tape recorder. Because then again, it was the 90s, so that I could listen to it at night.

[Samantha Shannon]

Wait, you mean like one of those. Like Fisher Price, little microphone attached. Oh, that's so sweet.

[Caroline]

I recorded it and then I could listen to it at night like a sort of primitive audiobook.

[Samantha Shannon]

Oh, that's so sweet.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I loved it that much. And I remember one.

[Samantha Shannon]

Well, because it was Aunt Telly or something.

[Caroline]

I think I must have had the video because it was after. I guess it was after it came to video. Obviously, I bought the video immediately. My mum bought it for me. But, yeah, and I remember playing it over and over again to the point that one time my dad, like, got angry with me because he just kept hearing Drag Dragon Heart over and over on this bloody little tape player. So, yeah, it really stuck in my head and it just left such a deep impression on me. And actually, when I rewatched Dragonheart, I could see how it affected my own depiction of dragons very much, including, like, dragons coming from the stars and also talking dragons. Because I loved. Again, I loved Draco, I loved Drake in the sequel. And I just. There's something about a talking dragon for me that's just so joyful. And technically, you know, I could have Written a book where the dragons don't. Because in my Roots of Chaos books, dragons are almost like, I suppose they're kind of elemental in a way. Like they're kind of like weather. If anything, they're sort of like destructive and they have this inborn need to destroy things. Or certainly the fire breathing dragons do. But I just wanted them to talk, even if it maybe didn't make much sense for them to talk. And yeah, that's definitely from Dragonheart.

[Samantha Shannon]

That's a real. I'm really interested. So the. You're listening to Dragonheart on your little tape recorder that you've recorded off the tv. Which is the cutest image. Does this begin like. Okay, paint me a picture. Is this like Samantha's turning six? It's a dragon themed birthday party. Samantha's turning seven. It's a dragon themed birthday party. Is there a dragon through line all the way? And how does that develop in you?

[Caroline]

I think I always love dragons after that. And another funny thing I remember is that I went to a Church of England school and there was a song that we used to sing during assembly which is called When a Knight Won His Spurs. And it basically goes like, When a knight won his spurs in the stories of old. He was gentle and brave, he was gallant and bold. And it's like, it's almost a song about a St. George esque figure. There is a line in that song where it says, and the knights are no more and the dragons are dead. And I used to refuse to sing that line at school. Cause I felt like, you know, like that belief that if you say the fairies aren't real, they'll die. Like I was scared of saying that the dragons are dead. Cause then I was like, but then I will never meet a dragon.

[Samantha Shannon]

And was that part of your, like your deepest sort of deep fantasy?

[Caroline]

Oh, yeah, No, I definitely like when I was a kid again, the kids used to bully me in the playground because I believed in fairies. And again, I really genuinely believe that law that if you say a fairy dies, then they'll die. And the kids used to come up to me and say, I don't believe in fairies, just to see me cry. It was so sad.

[Samantha Shannon]

Oh my gosh.

[Caroline]

Yeah, kids can be pretty evil sometimes. So.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I really believed, like in Dragonheart, you know, that the constellation Draco is where dragons lived. And I used to hope that one day a dragon would come down in the form of a cock.

[Samantha Shannon]

It.

[Caroline]

And so, yeah, I believed this almost religiously as a child. And I remained fascinated by Dragons for years. And then basically when I first published a novel, my first book was called the Bone Season. And that's more of like an urban fantasy. It's got clairvoyance and it's set in the future. So it's not very kind of swords and knights and dragons type fantasy. But then when I was writing the third book in that series, I had a lot of trouble with it and I had a bit of time to write something else while my editor had it. And I decided to go back to that. And this was before the fourth wing craze. So I don't think dragons were the mythological creature of the moment when I.

[Samantha Shannon]

Had the dragons, which right now they very much are.

[Caroline]

Oh, they are now, yeah, for sure. And I just decided that I really wanted to write something with dragons and particularly talking dragons. And I decided to go back to the legend of St. George, because I had been raised in the church of England. St George is a figure who came up a lot. He's not only a Christian military saint, but he's also an iconic representation of England. To many people we have the St. George's flag and so on. And I decided to research that legend and where it had come from because it's thought that the real St. George, if he existed, came from an area that is now modern day Turkey. So I was really interested to know how he became English. And the more I researched this legend, the more I found it quite disturbing. It's actually quite a xenophobic and Islamophobic legend in some iterations. So there was a particularly disturbing version of it I found. It's called the famous History of the Seven Champions of Christ Christendom by a guy called Richard Johnson. So he was a contemporary of Shakespeare and he wrote this really thick, actually quite long winded and quite difficult to read story about various saints, including St. George, who is the main character. And in this version of the story, St. George comes from Coventry in England. He's kidnapped by an enchantress when he's a baby who takes him into the forest and she raises him. She later gives the him this magical sword called Ascalon and sends him off to Egypt where a dragon has been tormenting the people and he fights the dragon. But basically the more I looked at this figure of George, the more I had questions about him because he's actually quite evil, the way that Johnson writes him. So there's a horrifying scene where he commits this massacre of Persian knights because they are not Christian, basically. And Johnson consistently portrays him as A hero, despite all these things he's doing. There's another scene where he falls in love with this woman called Lynn Lavinia, who is, I think her name maybe Lucinda, something like that. He falls in love with her, but she's a nun. And obviously, therefore she rejects him and he threatens to kill everyone she's ever loved if she doesn't agree to be with him. And then.

[Samantha Shannon]

And this is just in the St. George lore.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And then she dies by suicide because she obviously doesn't know, you know, how to reconcile this. And then insanely again, Johnson is like, obviously, St. George intended not to prosecute such violence. But I was like, well, she doesn't know that. You know, she's got this terrifying man saying he's going to kill everyone she's ever loved. And even in an earlier version of the story that I found, when George goes and finds this country that's being tormented by a dragon, he tries to get them to convert to Christianity before he will kill the dragon. So it's like his heroism is conditional upon the people converting to Christianity. And again, I didn't think that was very heroic of him. I mean, it's just. It's actually quite scary and oppressive. So I decided I wanted to reimagine this story and to interrogate it and to write it in a way that would be probably upsetting to Richard Johnson. I have this real beef with this man who's been dead for about 400 years and nobody really knows about. So I decided I wanted to write a story about lots of people from different backgrounds coming together to kill the dragon and to kill this common threat. So a lot of things in the Priory of the Orange Tree actually originate from his version of the story. So including the orange, which is a part of the lore that I could only find in his version of the story where St. George fights the dragon under an enchanted orange tree and its fruit heals him during the battle. But I decided to give it to a group of warrior women.

[Samantha Shannon]

Good call, I think.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So, yeah, I've always had that through line interest in dragons since I was a kid.

[Samantha Shannon]

That's fantastic. And something I'm really curious about as well, because from what I. The vague. My vague knowledge of the Crusades and knighthood and all that kind of stuff, is that the idea of the chivalric code, as in the sort of Arthurian thing that you quoted at the top of the podcast of being just and kind and not violent, was essentially a kind of a tool of propaganda, as the kind of a Cover for the Crusades, which were just people annihilating anyone overseas who wasn't Christian.

[Caroline]

Right, exactly. Yeah. And, you know, even the symbol of the St. George's Cross is problematic and in that sense, because it's very much tied to the Crusades. And it was disturbing when I read this version of the story from Richard Johnson, because that Islamophobia is just steeped throughout the whole story. You can't get away from it. It's also. It feels it's very racist as well as being xenophobic and Islamophobic. So it was just a very disturbing version of the story. And I wrote this whole essay about it, which is on my website, about the different versions of St. George and how it's almost strange that St. George is considered this figure of tolerance and kindness because I couldn't find a lot of evidence in the stories that suggested that that reputation was warranted. It's almost the opposite of that.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. It's fascinating because, okay, you never. In a story, you never get a knight without a dragon, and you never get a dragon without a knight. Right. But knights are real and knights are part of a historical fact and the Crusades are part of a historical fact. And we know all this stuff about the kind of the Islamophobia and the xenophobia and the just sort of the mindless slaughter. But where, where do this. This fake thing that, like dragons have existed in every lore, it seems all over the world, everyone's people have talked about this. They've existed in Asia, they exist in Europe. They exist. People are independently coming up with the idea of dragons. But why is it so why does the Venn diagram of like Western tradition have to include the night as well?

[Caroline]

Yeah, it is curious. And I don't. I don't think I know enough. I haven't done any specific research on that that would qualify me to talk about it, but it is. It is interesting to see that combination.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. Why is it always that kind of balance of power?

[Caroline]

Yeah. And it is interesting as well, because the dragon in Western lore and the kind of Scandinavian has usually been evil. And you see, I suppose it's linked to Christianity in terms of the dragon is the serpent and is Satan. It's a representation of Satan.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, sure. Oh, I had put that together. Yeah.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So I mean, even the word worm, you know, you could have used that for a serpent. And it's.

[Samantha Shannon]

So worm is like an old Norse word for dragon that you use in your books.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Wyrm, like W Y R A, which is just pronounced worm, which is quite funny when you see people doing the Wyrm thing, it's like, no, no, it's just, it's just worm. It's fine. It's fun. Yeah, but yeah, I mean, you see in like the Bible, for example, you know, you have the dragon in Revelation, which is, you know, kind of looms over the figure of what's she called again? There's a figure who clearly represents Mary and there's a moment in Revelation where the dragon is about to eat her unborn child. And it's clear that the dragon is often used to represent Satan in certain situations. So you can see why you could imagine a knight rising up in a Christian setting to kill Satan and therefore kill the dragon. But yeah, interestingly now we get a lot of good dragons in Mytheon. In lore we have like how to Train youn Dragon, for example. And yeah, I tried to integrate into my books as well that in some cultures dragons are more associated with benevolence and luck rather than evil. You know, you have kind of this fire breathing evil dragons in Western mythology, broadly. But then in many countries like Japan and China, they're more associated with water. And they're not always, you know, you get examples of them in stories where they're kind of antagonists. But yeah, broadly they are more associated with benevolence.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, it was fascinating watching the second Dragonheart movie and when they try to integrate. Yes.

[Caroline]

Kind of East Asian mythology.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, exactly. And yeah, it was fascinating having Red Priory to sort of see that kind of vague through line of like there being two kinds of dragons. And yeah, I mean, it is fascinating to think about how we do have this very specific Western tradition of these firebreaks breathing anti Christian serpents versus these kind of sky dragons that are sort of. I mean, my, my specific experience with this is as a gamer, I'm not sure if you play video games at all.

[Caroline]

I do.

[Samantha Shannon]

Oh, right. So I'm a big Skyrim fan and I'm a big Legend of Zelda fan. And particularly in Breath of the Wild you have these like. And this is. I know, I'm aware that lots of listeners aren't gamers, but like, I'm gonna really get into the specifics here for a minute.

[Caroline]

I'm going for it. I love games.

[Samantha Shannon]

So rare. I so rarely get a chance to. I feel like it's like this private part of myself I have to hide. But like when I'm playing Breath of the Wild, right there is this moment where a dragon which is very Much in the Asian tradition of, like, a sky beast will just appear and manifest, and it will just sort of loop through the sky, and you can watch it disappear into the clouds. And if you are close enough and, like, up, a special music will play, a gentle kind of chiming music will play. If you're close enough, you can possibly hit. Hit one with an arrow, and then maybe a scale will fall. And then if you scarper down to the water below, you might be able to retrieve that little scale and sell it for 5,000 rupees. Wow.

[Caroline]

I've never played Zelda, so. Yeah, I didn't realize there were dragons there.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, they're like. They kind of. They're just these sort of lovely beasts that kind of roam the land and are rarely part of actual gameplay. But they're just there for atmosphere, really, and they feel they really. To know. It's so strange. My defense of video gaming is that I think that it's the closest art form to a novel in that it doesn't work unless you interact with it.

[Caroline]

No, it's immersive storytelling. I've always said it's a very valid form of storytelling. I know people obviously worry about their kids not reading, but playing video games. And I'm like, it's great, obviously, to read for different reasons. It helps you build your vocabulary. It helps you recognize words visually. But, you know, storytelling in game, they're.

[Samantha Shannon]

Not the opposite of one another.

[Caroline]

No, not at all. They are a form of, like, you say, like, interactive narrative. And I just started playing Baldur's Gate 3 recently, which was recommended to me by my friend Tasha Siri, who's, like, absolutely in love with this game. And I haven't really played a game like that before, where there's very different outcomes in the game depending on how you interact with it. Like, you can be completely evil if you want, or you can be a completely heroic character. And I think it's great. Like, it's such a. It really, really kind of pushes your creativity. It makes you think about how you're gonna shape this story for yourself. I think it's brilliant.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's fantastic. And the thing of. If you put on an album or a movie, it will play the same way regardless of whether you're in the room or not. But with books and games, it's like the other person has to be there and present and doing the heavy work of either reading or playing in order for the story to continue. Otherwise, it's just inert, you know? Yeah.

[Caroline]

Somebody's gotta hit X for Action.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, Press a. The jump, you know, Ye. And so we get that in Zelda, and that's my experience of that. But then you play Skyrim and they're the huge winged beasts that attack towns and that you have to kill and absorb the souls of. And every single time I'm like, but why? I don't want to kill him. He's majestic.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It's so interesting. Like again, In Baldur's Gate 3, there's dragons at the beginning and I was so excited. They're not really in it a lot, but they kind of something like the Githyanki, who are kind of like these space pirates, made a deal with an evil goddess in hell and now they get to ride dragons. And I'm like, this is great.

[Samantha Shannon]

That's fucking great.

[Caroline]

It's awesome. And you see them attacking this thing called the Nautiloid, which is. I'm not super versed in D and D lore, but it's essentially like a giant squid spaceship and there's dragons attacking it. And it's so chaotic and just amazing. I had the best time.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's so good though, because like, do you have that sense of when your.

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[Samantha Shannon]

I have this nightmare that I never finished college or that someone's going to find out that I don't have the qualifications for this job and I'm like a total fraud. Sometimes even the most successful people experience imposter syndrome. Check out Mind if We Talk? The newest podcast helping you with tough topics. In this episode, Licensed Therapist has Joe sits down with award winning journalist Jane Marie to explore why so many of us have imposter syndrome and why success never seems to solve it. Whether you've ever questioned your own success or felt like the odd one out, this episode's for you. Listen and subscribe to Mind if We Talk wherever you get your podcasts because I know we've both worked with Tarot in our work as well, and something I loved about working with tarot cards in fiction was the idea that, well, this has been around for hundreds and hundreds of years and people have had different interpretations. And so therefore, the field is open and I'm allowed to have my own interpretation of it.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

And so, like, working within dragon lore is like, where do you feel the limits? Where do you feel like if I were to cross this line, I would no longer be working sort of respectfully within the world of dragons?

[Caroline]

Oh, that's such an interesting question. Because the thing I love about the fantasy genre on the whole is that the only limit is the author's imagination. There's certainly conventions in fantasy and you can see where people think the lines are. So I found, like, there's this idea, for example, of historical accuracy in fantasy that I find absolutely fascinating. And you saw this in, like, Game of Thrones, for example, and there was a scene in. There was a scene in Game of Thrones with a very controversial scene where a character is sexually assaulted. And I remember there was a huge backlash to it because of the way that it was shot. And just generally seeing this character in the situation was very distressing.

[Samantha Shannon]

Is that when Sansa Stark's wedding night.

[Caroline]

Sansa, yeah. And it's like, you know, the way that they focused on Theon Face throughout the whole thing. So it's very much about his reaction to it.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And I remember the controversy. And so many people said, well, it's historically accurate. Then they didn't care about the dragons. The accuracy had to be in the fact that this is a misogynistic world and misogyny is historically accurate, therefore it must be part of fantasy. And I've been talking about this for years because I find it so frustrating. Fantasy is not historical. And yet people have these very clear ideas that fantasy has to be historically accurate in certain ways. So another example is that they think everybody has to be white because it is not apparently historically accurate for people of colour to exist in a medieval European setting. Now, that's, first of all, not true. It's based on a misconception of history, but also it's fantasy. So even if it was historically accurate, you have every right to break history in fantasy. So I don't really think there should be any specific conventions, because the joy of fantasy is that every single authority author has a different imagination. And I love this genre because of the scope of it, the fact that there are no rules, really. I mean, there are, like I say, established conventions, but you can break them. And it's Great. So I wouldn't feel, you know, I wouldn't feel like I was doing anything particularly crazy like if I had this idea for dragons. My dragon concept is pretty simple. So basically this is a very big sprawling world in my Roots of Chaos books. So I wanted to keep the magic system relatively clear and easy to understand in the midst of all of the politics and everything. So I have a simple concept based on the alchemical concept of as above, so below. So you have to. There's two types of magic. One of them comes from under the earth in like the fiery core of the world. And it comes up through these magic trees. And if you eat the fruit of the tree, you absorb the fiery magic in what I might call a safe way. However, if that form of magic becomes chaotic, you get volcanic eruptions that create dragons. Which my editor was like, but why do they come out volcanoes? And I said, they just do.

[Samantha Shannon]

Because they do.

[Caroline]

I think it's cool.

[Samantha Shannon]

Printed bitch.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I think it's cool. But yeah, and that's, for me, the fire dragons get their fire, it's from the core of the world. And so they're very associated with lava and they are chaotic in nature. You know, you can't have these dragons unless something has gone wrong in the magic system. And that's why they destroy everything instinctively. But then on the other hand, you have dragons that come from the stars. And this is where my dragonheart influence comes in. And those dragons, dragons, the starlight kind of falls into the sea and formed the first dragons. And they are in harmony with nature. So they're kind of the equivalent of the fruit trees in that they hold the magic in a safe way. And I won't say what happens when that form of magic becomes chaotic, because I want to look at that in the next Fruits of Chaos book. But yeah, that's my basic premise for dragons. I wanted to keep it quite simple. So there's water dragons who are broadly peaceful. They're not exactly good. Like, there's a discussion about it in A Day of Fallen Night, which is the prequel to the Priory of Orange Tree, where a character says, well, our dragons are good, aren't they? And this alchemist is like, not really. They're just in harmony with nature. Like they're kind of more neutral than anything else. But yeah, and then the fire breathing dragons are the ones who are destructive. And that was me kind of trying to make sense of those two broad schools of dragon mythologies, but bring that into a fantasy setting and make that part of the magic system.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's really. It's really, really incredible that. That sort of. To be able to do something so sprawling and so huge and with so many characters and different sort of even styles of like dialect and everything. And to. What I've learned is so much of the success of. Of fantasy is about being able to boil it down to something very elemental like that as the. As above. So below Star dragon, ground dragon. And you're like, absolutely, yeah. I think it's what I always struggle with in like, I don't know, hand selling. I guess my own fantasy work into people is like, I'm like, I don't. I had some thoughts.

[Caroline]

It's actually I struggle the same with my other series because Priory is quite simple. I'm just like, you know, it's a sort of feminist take on George and the Dragon. And again, very easy concept. Like you say, like ground dragon, sky dragon. Whereas the Bone season, which is my tarot inspired clairvoyance series, has so many layers to it and the magic system is so much bigger. It's very hard for me to condense it down to an elevator pitch. But Priory I do find a bit easier.

[Samantha Shannon]

Can I ask you, with magic systems, I'm worried this is a little bit off Dragonheart, but I am fascinated how everybody comes up with their own, like, to you, are you like, coming up with characters first and essentially, if everyone remembers our Rebecca Kuang episode of like, essentially coming up with a cool image and working your way backwards, being like, the phantom is the phantom because the phantom is the phantom and working your way backwards and. And be like, how do we explain that? Or do you start with some kind of like sort of pseudo truth that you kind of. I say pseudo truth in the way that like, you and I both believed in fairies growing up and both believed that maybe we could meet a unicorn or something or a dragon if we really held on. It's kind of thing that you didn't logically believe, but there was a kind of soul truth that you had. I think the same happens when you're coming up with any kind of magic or magic system that you're like, you intellectually know it isn't true, but you feel a truth in it.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

Do you know what I mean? Sorry if it's a weird way of putting it.

[Caroline]

No, no, not at all. I mean, so for Bone season, I came up with the premise of having a magic system based on clairvoyance. And I had not had any personal experience of tarot reading or palm reading or anything like that before. I Was just. I was doing an internship in Seven Dials in Covent Garden and there are shops around there that are kind of new agey and sell aura beads and offer palm readings and things like that. So for me, it was almost a slant on the witch trials, but it was gonna be based on people who had powers of divination and who were spirit mediums and had different ways of communicating with the spirit world. And for me, that I like a. I like a good hard magic system with some rules to it. I think that soft magic systems are fun as well, where it's a little bit vaguer. But I liked having these distinct categories of clairvoyance. So I ended up basically making a huge list of every type of kind of clairvoyance, divination, spirit contact, anything like that, and then organizing them into seven groups that had similar traits between them. And then I made like a hierarchy out of that. But yeah, it felt to me like something that could be real in this alternate universe. And yeah, I loved putting lots of detail into it. Like, you know, which category are the crystal ball readers going in? How is that different from the ones who read the tarot and that sort of thing? And yeah, and then with Priory, yeah, it's, I suppose, like the idea of a balance is quite a basic concept and it's very fantasy esque in, you know, the terms of like. It's normally depicted as like the balance between light and dark, like in Star wars, for example. But yeah, it was just something a bit simpler because the world is so much larger with so many perspectives.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, yeah. And then it. Like we were saying about how when you started Priory, that dragons weren't necessarily the fantasy creature of the moment, but they have been quite recently. Again, like vampires, they never really go away. But it's interesting that, like, I haven't read 4th Wing, but I believe they're talking in talking dragons in that also.

[Caroline]

Yes, yes.

[Samantha Shannon]

But, you know, we most recently obviously had Game of Thrones and those. I mean, the kind of most popular reading of those dragons as them being kind of metaphors for nuclear weaponry or essentially just being any kind of metaphor for any sort of arms race that has ever existed within humankind. Which is if somebody has weaponry, that sucks kind of thing.

[Caroline]

Yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

So like, do you think that different iterations of dragons speak to a kind of a social fear? Like, are we attracted to dragons once again? Because there's a lot of panic at the moment in terms of like. I mean, there's these. These things have always existed and this has always been happening, but I feel like the environmental consciousness is huge and societal collapse. Always people seem more aware of the idea that a society can collapse at the moment, you know, than they ever have been before, certainly in my lifetime. Do you think that we lean on dragons for different things at different times?

[Caroline]

Well, I think they are very versatile in terms of that they can portray so many things. It's like in Dragonheart, dragons are clearly meant to represent the so called once ways and the time when things were better and now they're much worse. And we look to the dragons for guidance about who we ought to be rather than who we are. But yeah, because they are so versatile and you can portray them as being good or evil, evil or neither, I think that they can be a fantastical stand in for just a huge variety of different things. I have actually had my own work be read as a kind of rallying cry against climate change before because that, because I have talked about the dragons being like extreme weather. And in terms of people not look, there is an implication that if we do not look after the earth in certain ways, then the earth will retaliate with the dragons. And I don't like to be too specific about my intentions because I like there to be room for interpretation. But I think that is a very valid reading of the Priory of the Orange Tree. And it has been really interesting seeing people read it like that as a kind of environmental. Yeah, like a rallying cry. But yeah, I think it's interesting with Game of Thrones and the nuclear weapons. And then we have that scene where Drogon burns the Iron Throne. And I was thinking, okay, do dragons represent something else then? Cause I mean, since when has Drogo been Drogon been constantly physically aware?

[Samantha Shannon]

Physically aware.

[Caroline]

I was like, oh, now he recognizes that his mind mother's quest for power has ruined everything. And I didn't get the sense that he was that conscious of that. No, he was not very politically attuned. But now he's representing again. I'm like, is he representing again something the once ways before the Iron Throne? Yeah, it's just so interesting to see all the different.

[Samantha Shannon]

I don't know if they were that conscious about things representing anything towards the end.

[Caroline]

Look, look, I could do nine podcasts on how much I hate the ending of Game of Thrones. In many ways, I'm so angry about it. But yeah, I was like, this might have been cool in a different context, but again, what is Drogon supposed to be or represent in this case? Dragons come from old Valyria. So are they supposed to be representing, again, something from before? But then the Valyrians, I got the sense that they weren't particularly great and that they were all about the pursuit of power. But then is a dragon a representation of a power that should not be tamed, that we are arrogant to try to tame? I don't know. It's fascinating.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, it is fascinating. And I can never help, you know, it's again, because the series has been going on for 30 years, always exciting to be like, why. Why this at this time? For me, I'm kind of addicted to that sort of way of thinking. And I. I was thinking a lot today about how. Because we're probably on the brink of another global recession. Fun.

[Caroline]

Oh, yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

How our. The. The whole kind of watching wealthy people be wealthy has kind of like in the last sort of few years, we've gone from, you know, your successions or whatever. That was kind of a show that was pitched to us as satire. And the same with the White Lotus pitched to us as satire, but then taken by large swathes of the audience as being simply aspirational kind of thing, and people thinking they have things in common with succession characters is not like, oh, so. Oh, really? Are we really interpreting this in the right way? Or like, you know, I just saw the other day that the White Lotus has teamed up with a luggage brand and they're selling incredibly expensive luggage.

[Caroline]

Now.

[Samantha Shannon]

I'm sure that wasn't my White Steel. I'm sure that was whoever is running the show. But it's like, it's. I think we are really veering towards this place where we don't. Conspicuous consumption is really coming back and like, being wealthy is really coming back visibly because it's going to be harder and harder to be wealthy. So therefore more people are going to want to show that they are, even if they're lying about it.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Samantha Shannon]

Is what I think. And I think when I look back on like this boom in the late 80s up to mid-90s of like, Arthurian fan fantasy, to me, it does like Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves, the Dragonheart franchise, Princess Bride, all this stuff that is just essentially people in costumes running around an Eastern European country pretending to be magic. They are very anti monarchy, they're very anti elitism, they're very pro peasant, you know.

[Caroline]

Yeah. But then, interestingly, like, it always seems like the ending is to have a just king rather than overthrow the king, which. I was just thinking about this this morning when I was thinking about different ways to discuss Dragonheart and So I think at the end of Dragonheart, it's implied that it says Bowen and Kara led the people in a time of justice or something like that. I don't know if Bowen becomes the king or if Chara becomes the queen. It's not specified in the third film, I'm pretty sure. So Gareth and Roanu become the king and queen in that one, or I think they do anyway. It's usually implied that the hero becomes the leader at the end. Yes.

[Samantha Shannon]

There must be a king.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I think it's a king and the only one. Again, I couldn't get clarity on Dragon Vengeance. So at the end of Dragonheart Vengeance, they overthrow the evil king who has been corrupt and he's basically been too lazy to prepare for food shortages. So in order to distract the population, he employed a bunch of mercenaries to go and harrow the countryside and murder people. And this is proven at the end. And they overthrow the king. Right. And then at the end just there's just a big party and everyone is grinning in a way that is almost frightening. And they are dancing around joyfully. But I could not tell if anyone was in charge. I don't know if anyone's in charge very much.

[Samantha Shannon]

At the end of Labyrinth, just like.

[Caroline]

We'Re dancing, they're just dancing. And I was like, okay, so is there. No. Is this democracy? I feel like it's probably not, but I feel like probably there's still a king. But ultimately, because King Arthur is the idealized king, I don't think it is specifically anti monarchy. I think it is pro good monarchy. It's anti corruption and anti abuse of power in monarchy. But because again, King Arthur is the ultimate source of the old code, I don't think it is being explicitly anti. Anti monarchist because of that. But like, like you say, it's very focused on the ordinary people rising up and kind of just restoring justice. It's about as long as you have a just king, I think we're okay. Yeah, but we can't have an unjust king. So like I say, it's refreshing to see the focus on the. The ordinary people. And I, I would like to see that come back more in our modern fantasy, actually.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, I really like to see. I've definitely tried it with the new one of like trying to have a working class fantasy where everybody has a job and is very concerned about making ends meet. But then it's like when everybody has a job, you can't focus on courtly intrigue questions because everyone's just going to work.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And there's a huge element of escapism to fantasy. So I think sometimes we read fantasy for the glamour and the opulence. And if you're with ordinary people, it's more like your own life. So we lack that escapist element to it. But I do think it's important to have that in fantasy. I mean, I try to. You know, a lot of my characters, like I say, are royal because I just find it very interesting. And there's just so much fascinating, like, psychological conflict. If you have, say, for example, a queer queen who does not want to be with a man, you know, how is she going to produce the next heir? So I find that really interesting as someone who does try to write a lot of queer fantasy. But, yeah, I did also enjoy having characters like, there's a character called Niclaes in the Priory of the Orange Tree who is just an ordinary person. And that was a lot of fun because he faces a lot of challenges that the other characters don't. And he has a very different attitude to life because he just hasn't had that privileged upbringing. I've got a book coming out called among the Burning Flowers, which is like a sort of shorter Priory book that's like a prologue to Priory of the Orange Tree. And in that, there's a scene where basically I have two narrators in the first part of the book. And one is a royal and one is not. And the one who isn't royal, you know, you see her commenting on like, oh, you know, I wish I was. Cause she just doesn't have to do anything. She just sits in her palace and has money and food. But then her girlfriend says, well, yeah, but think about it. If you were royal like that we couldn't be together because this one has this pressure of arranged marriage on her and so on. So, yeah, I just. I find the different kind of pressures and challenges really interesting to contrast.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. And specifically with Dragonheart. I spoke about this at the start of the podcast, but never quite got back to it. That we have this film that's of kind of half Shrek and half very sincerely, about the quest for meaning and belief.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's very tonally dissonant.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. In a way, I didn't mind. It was quite gentle. And like, I was watching it while my friend was sort of recovering from surgery, and we were just monged out being like, huh. And then I sort of looked into it a bit deeper and there's two writers of this movie, one of whom got the commission based on it. Being like a dragon and a knight team up and they fool villagers. And then they brought in another writer and he was like, no, this is about.

[Caroline]

This is about sacrifice.

[Samantha Shannon]

Sacrifice. And so by the time that you get to that sacrifice of Drago, by the end, you're like, holy fuck.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It really hits you out of the blue if you go into it expecting a buddy comedy. But weirdly, it starts with the darker tone. I mean, I was actually quite shocked when I rewatched it. Just some of the violence being enacted on the peasants. Like, I had completely forgotten that Inen fully, brutally blinds Kara's father with a hot poker, like I was. And generally the films aren't super. It's kind of a bloodless violence a lot of the time, with the exception of the last film, vengeance, because somebody fully gets their hand chopped off in that. And you see blood. And it gave me the shock of my life. Because normally you don't see that in Dragonheart, but yeah, it is tone. And like you said, there is that implied assault as well. And I could not believe that I'd missed that for. Because again, obviously.

[Samantha Shannon]

But it is a blink and you'll miss it kind of thing. It's like suddenly she's in some kind.

[Caroline]

Of a shift and it's like. And I didn't quite get the sense of whether it actually happened or not or whether Inaan was just threatening her. I will say, I think generally the representation of women is actually quite strong. It holds up pretty well because, you know, you see a lot of, you know, representation of women from that era and it's not amazing.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. And there's also. There's a lot of women, but not a lot of romance.

[Caroline]

No, there's interesting, basically.

[Samantha Shannon]

No, there's no kissing ever.

[Caroline]

No. Like Bowen. I mean, there's Bowen. I think there's like an implication that Bowen and Chara might maybe have a little something like. But it's never acted on.

[Samantha Shannon]

The epilogue tells us they reigned together. I'm like, as man and wife or.

[Caroline]

But I don't think that's confirmed.

[Samantha Shannon]

And especially.

[Caroline]

Cause, I mean, again, I know that this might not have mattered quite so much in the 90s, but Bowen looks a lot older than Kara to me. Like to the point where I was like, yes.

[Samantha Shannon]

And there's a 12 year age jump at a certain point.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So I was just thinking, I don't know if he's actually implied that they get together or not. Like there's a sort of semi romantic, ish scene where he's kind of teaching her to use an axe. And, you know, he's like. He's holding her hand and, like, teaching her how to use the axe. And they kind of have a look. And I was like, I do love.

[Samantha Shannon]

A bit of that.

[Caroline]

And then there's a weird scene where Draco flirts with Kara, which I thought was so funny. Like, this dragon is singing to her. And then, you know, Bowen's like, what are you doing? And the dragon's like, oh, I have been distracted. And I was like, okay, Draco, do you fancy Cara? Am I reading this?

[Samantha Shannon]

And if so, why? What's the endgame?

[Caroline]

I don't know. I mean, it was funny.

[Samantha Shannon]

At a certain point, he's like, you abandoned me in the village. He went, oh, the village.

[Caroline]

Yeah. He's clearly been fully distracted by the pretty redhead damsel who was left out for him, which I found quite funny. But, yeah, it is very. I like the tonal dissonance of it because I think it creates a nice contrast in terms of, you know, we can see why Bowen and Draco have this connection. We can see that kind of chemistry and banter between them and that and their friendship grows both from the comedy together and also, yeah, they fight evil together. But I don't think that would be as effective if we haven't seen where they're first, you know, they're friends and that. It's this buddy comedy thing. And of course, there's that iconic scene where Bowen is in Draco's mouth, which is just so funny. You know, Bowen's got his sword up in the roof of Draco's mouth, and if Draco bites him, then clearly the sword's gonna go straight into his brain. And I actually found out they built, like, a whole animatronic electronic mouth for that. And apparently the tongue was so powerful that Dennis Quaid had to be, like, tied down, because this tongue could have just fully knocked him out. It was that strong. Oh, my God. But, yeah, I don't know. It's tonally dissonant in a weird way, but I love it for that. I just don't think the tragedy would be as effective if we hadn't had the contrast of the comedy.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah. You truly do believe that that dragon and that man really love each other.

[Caroline]

They do. And it's apparently, again, Quaid kind of said to the director, Rob Cohen, he said, how would Bowen and Draco relate to each other? And Cohen said, well, they're both the last of their kind. And I thought that was so. And I was like, oh, no, you're right, because Bowen is pretty much the last of his kind. You know, there aren't knights like Bowen anymore. I do think it's incredible that Draco forgave Bowen so quickly for killing every other dragon that he's ever met. I was. That was very fast. I would have been a lot angrier about that, personally.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Especially because it's clearly implied by the second film that Bowen killed Draco's mate. I don't think I'm reading too deeply into this, but there is a scene where Draco says to Bowen, so it was you who killed the Scarred One? She and I were the last. And then you find out in the second movie that Draco had an egg in his cave. And I was thinking, was the Scarred One Draco's mate? I think that's it.

[Samantha Shannon]

Did he kill your wife?

[Caroline]

Yeah, I think he killed his wife. And he was okay with it. He just forgives him really fast. And I don't know if that's because dragons are meant to be forgiving and merciful by nature. Maybe. But I don't know. I would have been a lot more cross about that, personally.

[Samantha Shannon]

Well, I suppose when you have a guaranteed sense of Dragon Heaven, it's.

[Caroline]

Well, only if you're a righteous dragon. If you're a righteous dragon. And then. But I think Draco probably feels that he isn't a righteous dragon because he empowered Inon. So, yeah, the fact that he has to allow himself to be killed is partly for his own sake in order to get into Dragon Dragon Heaven.

[Samantha Shannon]

Which is a great bit of storytelling in general. Just like the idea that, like, you made my sort of son Prince, sort of my. Kind of my mentee. Evil. Like. No, your mentee was evil.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's really compelling, actually.

[Caroline]

And he's so deeply in denial about it. Bowen, you know, he's in denial at the beginning. He's consistently in denial about the fact that Inan is just a really bad person and has always been a bad person. Like, he's. You know, there's that awful thing where they have this fight next to the waterfall. And Inan's so cruel to him. You know, he just says, you taught me to fight. That's all. I took what I needed from you. And you can see Bowen's heart just breaking all over again. Like, he clearly loved Inan so much. And it's interesting because throughout the film, you can see little glimpses of Inan potentially. You can see why Bowen thought there might be some good in him. Like the bit where Inan is dying, and he recites the old code along with.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And I think you're supposed to think that Queen Aislinn's kind of influence on him might have saved him in different circumstances. I will just say that I love Queen Acen and how completely anti her own son she is. She makes multiple attempts to kill him. It's great. Like, she is. So she's not one of those women who's, like, you know, trying to stick up for their husband and son through thick and thin, you know, she's not. She just is fully like, this guy is evil and I need to kill him. And that's that great moment where Aylan, like, he really realizes that she has hired the dragonslayers in order to kill him, and he just looks at her and goes, how unmotherly of you.

[Samantha Shannon]

That accent is wild.

[Caroline]

He's got his great northern accent. It's amazing. And then he just goes and kills her, which is, again, really dark. Like, he takes Queen Aeson into, like, a dark kind of room, and you just hear this scream, and then Draco roars and again, very, very dark. He just killed his own mother. Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's got a real kind of Eleanor of Aquitaine kind of vibe about it, right?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

Like which. Have you ever seen the lion in Winter?

[Caroline]

No.

[Samantha Shannon]

Perfect movie, but could use a dragon.

[Caroline]

Yeah, Anything could use a dragon. That's my rule. You can't make anything worse by putting a dragon in it. Always better. I will say, just going back to your point about, like, current world events and how that can be reflected in dragons. There's also the idea of the dragon as the hoarder of gold and wealth. And I think, you know, you see this in Tolkien with Smaug when we go back to the Dwarven kingdom, when we find him sitting atop this amassed wealth. And that's something you. Sometimes I feel like you don't actually see that in a ton of dragon mythology now.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah, we seem to have lost that. Right. Wasn't the origin of Smaug was that he was a person originally? I think there was, like, an essay that Tolkien wrote about. Oh, I didn't know that I could be wrong, but I think I remember that he was originally a person who. Who became a dragon through greed and cursed stuff.

[Caroline]

I had no idea about that. Wow. I had genuinely.

[Samantha Shannon]

Now I feel like I made it up.

[Caroline]

But, I mean, I love these.

[Samantha Shannon]

We have lost that idea of dragons as sitting on gold, eating gold, loving gold. But, like, we never really find out why.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I need to actually track if there was a specific story that originated that. Cause the only one I can think off the top of my head is Smaug. But there must have been, you know. Cause Tolkien very much worked with existing mythology, so I feel like he probably does. Didn't make that up. He would have got it from an old Norse story or something like that. But yeah, I actually don't really have that in my own work. I have dragons who have pearls, which is again, something. It's related to East Asian mythology. But yeah, I couldn't really think of a way to elegantly include dragons. Loving gold in my.

[Samantha Shannon]

Because the thing is, if you have them, the loving gold thing, it sort of reduces their intellect a bit because they can't buy things, they don't need things. So if they just like shiny things, then they're just kind of mutant magpies and it sort of reduces their intellect. And you know, to make them interesting, you want them to be intellectual, right? On some level.

[Caroline]

And that's an interesting thing about Smough because sometimes he is very unintellectual in terms of his love of gold. But then he does have that kind of draconic cunning to him which, you know, you can. You feel the evil and the intelligence of Smau. But then there is that contrast of he just. He just loves a bit of gold. He just loves gold. He loves sitting on gold. I suppose I kind of integrated that into the Priory of the Orange Tree because the dragons come from in the earth. I had one dragon who is essentially made of gold. But it's because it's the idea of the metal being dug from beneath the earth. So it made sense to me that they feel very volcanic and like they could technically have, you know, metals from the earth on them somewhere. Like that made more sense to me. But yeah, they don't really hoard gold in the same way, but it could be an interesting interpretation of a billionaire.

[Samantha Shannon]

All right, I think we're. We're coming towards the end. But is there anything about dragon heart that you. You need. You need to say from. To free from your heart?

[Caroline]

I just think more people should watch it just for some good wholesome fun. And I just, I do like the simplicity of the message. I love that it is just about ordinary people rising against injustice and corruption. And as silly as the films can be, I just. I just. I don't know, I just love them. They're always going to be favorites of mine, I think. Oh, I will just say one more thing as well about the score of the first movie.

[Samantha Shannon]

Stunning.

[Caroline]

So stunning. Randy Edelman is the composer. And you know that the kind of iconic Dragonheart theme tune which is used at the very end of the first film where Draco goes up to the stars, that became an iconic piece of music by itself. I'm pretty sure it was used for the trailer of Mulan. I am like 95% sure that I haven't misremembered that. Cause I'm pretty sure I remember the combination in my mind of hearing the Dragonheart music and then seeing that moment where everyone bows before Mulan at the end of the film. I'm pretty sure it was used as the trailer music.

[Samantha Shannon]

Another iconic Dragon film.

[Caroline]

Yeah. But the score is incredible. Like, I've used that to inspire my own writing so much. And I don't think Dragonheart would be the film it is without that specific piece of music, which is called to the Stars. And yeah, it's an amazing score. I would recommend it for anyone who just likes using scores in their writing, which I love listening to instrumental music. When I write, I can't listen to music with lyrics because I like, feel like that already has a story, but it's such an atmospheric and, like, kind of rousing and inspiring piece of music. It just makes you want to write something heroic.

[Samantha Shannon]

I have that same thing where I have very emotional connections to films I haven't seen because I have become close to the soundtrack through writing to them. Like, there's a Kate Winslet movie called A Little Chaos, which is about some. The lady who. Who planted the Versailles Garden. Never seen it. Feel very deeply about it.

[Caroline]

I know what same. I mean. I became hilariously. There's a movie that I think is called San Andreas, which has got Dwayne Johnson in it. And I' never seen this film. I don't think I'm generally. I feel like the kind of movies that the rock is in, I don't watch. But there is a specific track from that called Extinction. And it is like the most, like, incredibly haunting piece of music. And I got so obsessed with it. It was the top of my Spotify thing. I must. I listened to that an embarrassing number of times when I was writing the fifth book in my Bone Season series. And I like, tagged the composer and he said thank you. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I've been seen.

[Samantha Shannon]

Oh, my God. I know when you get the Spotify mess from some random cellist and he's like in a raincoat somewhere being like, whoever you guys are. I don't know.

[Caroline]

Oh, no. He replied to me On Instagram.

[Samantha Shannon]

You specifically.

[Caroline]

I tagged him on Instagram being like, thank you for inspiring me. He was probably like, why is this random author been so inspired by this one piece of music from the rock film? Which was probably. I haven't even seen the scene that it's in. It's probably quite silly, but, yeah, I just. Yeah, it's just funny how, like, scores speak to us, even if we haven't seen the thing. But that's the thing. Scores are designed for atmosphere. So I think they're great for writing because, you know, often they're specifically tailored for action or for an emotional heartbreak. So they make sense as like a writing inspiration that just gets you drilled into the scene. No, it's amazing. So, yeah, I would just say, like, if you ever find yourself with a few hours on a random rainy afternoon, then the Dragonheart films are just a fun, wholesome way to spend your time.

[Samantha Shannon]

They are.

[Caroline]

I just love them. I think they're underrated.

[Samantha Shannon]

And they also speak to a time in. Again, going back to this thing of, like, you know, Game of Thrones being this really mainstreaming moment for fantasy of that kind of, you know, medieval Arthurian type of fantasy that, like, we had to sort of trick ourselves into taking it all extremely seriously in order for us to take the ideas of them seriously or for us to even be entertained by them at all. That everything has to be like Sansa Snark getting raped on her wedding night and people being murdered in their sleep. It's like there are ways to engage with fantasy that they don't have to be so, like, dark and violent. And I think we've tricked ourselves into believing they do have to be.

[Caroline]

I think it was the prevalence of Grimdark, and I think that was, you know, very much Game of Thrones was a huge part of that. It was this idea that grim dark fantasy is the only type of fantasy that should be taken seriously. And I think this has changed recently because you have things like Romantasy, you have kind of more romantic comedy and.

[Samantha Shannon]

Wicked and that kind of thing.

[Caroline]

Right. It's more happy fantasy. But, yeah, I. I do think that. I think there could probably be a little element of, like, Grimdark written by men being taken more seriously than books written by women. I do think we still have that in the fantasy genre to some extent. I think that fantasy written by women is taken less seriously for various reasons. But, yeah, I think that Grimdark being so prevalent was the cause of that. And it is quite nice to just see a silly cheesy fantasy. Like my friend Catherine Weber, she co wrote this book with.

[Samantha Shannon]

She was in here last week.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. Twin Crowns. And I think they were very much inspired by things like the Princess Bride and like those kind of fun, silly, campy fantasy films. It was actually really nice when I read that because I just. I hadn't really been used to it for a while. I was used to the dark, gritty fantasy where. Where there are no heroes, everyone is morally gray. And Dragon heart's not like that. It's, you know, you've got your good guys and your bad guys and, you know, you have people who are on the journey to being good. Like, Bowen is not always 100% morally good guy, but, you know, he is in his heart, he's just been disillusioned.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yes.

[Caroline]

But, yeah, sometimes it's just fun to see just simple, silly fantasies.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's interesting that this kind of obsession with moral greyness will often be like. And that means all of my characters murder at least one person. Yes. Like, no, moral grayness should mean actual, like, conflicted morals kind of thing.

[Caroline]

Not war crimes. It's always like, oh, yeah, the love interest committed war crimes, but, you know, I can save him. It's just. No, I don't always need that. You know, that's not. I don't usually like that, in fact. But, yeah, I like proper moral greyness. But, yeah, just. Yeah, sometimes it's okay to just have a bit of fun with fantasy and I think we forgot that for a while.

[Samantha Shannon]

But the thing is, I think that Game of Thrones was at its best when it kind of balanced the fun and the interpersonal relationships and stuff. Like, for me, that series was at its best when it was kind of the Sansa Stark, Margaery Tyrell, Cersei Lannister, the kind of what I think of as the sort of summer seasons kind of thing. They were brightly lit and you was at court stuff and all that.

[Caroline]

Tyrion at his best. With his jokes. Yes, with his jokes.

[Samantha Shannon]

Remember he had jokes.

[Caroline]

Remember when Tyrion was intelligent and funny before they dumbed him down for some reason, like his.

[Samantha Shannon]

They did.

[Caroline]

Oh, they really did. Like, he makes so many stupid decisions in the last couple of seasons and I'm like, that's not him. Like, you've literally had to dumb him down in order to make this plot work. Anyway, again, I will go on for that for hours. But yeah, I think the other thing about fantasy is that, yes, it is the genre where we can make it very dark and gritty, but it's Also the genre of wonder. And you know, again, that thing about the author's imagination being the only limit here. There is something great about just the joy of magic and the childish wonder of it. And I do think we have been missing that for a while. And there are moments in Game of Thrones where there are amazing magical things like something like the wall. You know, it's very impressive and it does inspire a sense of wonder in you. But yeah, yeah, I do just. I think that Dragonheart does that. It has that sense of wow, dragons really can come from the stars. Like, you know, the way I thought when I was a kid, it filled my life with a sense of wonder and hope and just excitement and. Yeah, I hope with my books, you know, they can be quite dark sometimes. But I also do try to infuse it with moments of just sheer magic. Like there's a moment in a day of fall and night where there's a line that just says, you know, the dark sky dazzling with dragons. And I just had this image in my mind of just all of these dragons rising up from their sleep into the night sky and just how incredible that would look. And. Yeah. So, you know, I love a bit of dark fantasy, but I also love a little bit of just this is magic. And that's awesome.

[Samantha Shannon]

I love that. I really, really love that. And it makes me. Whenever I'm writing fantasy, I have these moments that are called saving the game.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Samantha Shannon]

And again, video games and fiction where it's like you have to give the character a bath or a feast or a party because you're like, let's just save the game here for a minute.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Samantha Shannon]

Put a pin in this.

[Caroline]

Oh, that's such a great analogy. I never thought of that. I mean, that's. Again, I love the opulence sometimes with like the feast and the dance, there's always a masquerade ball.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And it's great. Cause you can do that. And yeah, I just think all types of fantasy are valuable. And I think that, yeah, Dragonheart just combines some of my favorites. The darkness, but also the joy and the way wonder and the. Just the sheer thrill of having a dragon to ride.

[Samantha Shannon]

Samantha, Shannon, thank you so much for coming on. I've loved talking about dragons all morning. This has been fabulous.

[Caroline]

Yeah, this has been great. Thank you so much for having me.

[Samantha Shannon]

Is there anything. You've got loads coming out. You've got all your Samantha's versions of the Bone Season.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So I just re released basically the entire Bone Season series so far because I wrote The Bone Season when I was 19, and I had it published just after I graduated uni. So I decided I was going to completely revise them recently. So I would love more people to read the Bone Season season series because I think I'm much better known for the Priory of the Orange Tree. But the Bone Season is like, my heart project. Like, I just. It's my first baby. And if you do read it, please pick up the version with the pretty flowers on the covers, because they are the new versions and they are written with 10 more years of experience under my belt. So I've completely revised those. I've just released the fifth book in the series, which is called the Dark Mirror. And then I have this shorter Roots of Chaos book coming out in September. Amongst the Burning Flowers. If you haven't read my books like the Priory of the Orange Tree, you can actually start with among the Burning Flowers. I think of it as a gentler, more accessible introduction to the Roots of Chaos series for readers who might find big books intimidating, because, again, Priory, the Orange Tree and A Day of Fallen Night are both doorstops. You know, they're huge. And this is just a way that you can ease into it without needing to set aside, like, a huge amount of time to read them.

[Samantha Shannon]

I love that. And can I. I'm sorry, I know we have to go, and we've been here long enough, but can I just ask about the decision to go back? I know you just said that you. You realized you were a more advanced writer now. And I certainly have that with my earlier work, when I. Particularly my first two novels, when I'm like, oh, God, if I imagine if I knew everything I know about writing novels now, I could go back and really get into those ideas the way I thought I wanted to then. But, like, to actually do it is such a huge commitment and a huge decision in, like, getting your publishers on board and everything. And, like, can I just hear a little bit more about, like, why when so many authors, basically every author leaves their work and just sort of, you know, signals it farewell. Why? Why that? Why you decide to go back?

[Caroline]

Yeah, I mean, mostly I have the same attitude in terms of, you know, every book you write is like a time capsule that captures who you were at the time. And mostly you just accept that and move on. I mean, there are things I would change about Priory of the Orange Tree now. I wrote it in, like, what, 2016. So it was. God, it's coming up to nearly 10 years. Bloody hell.

[Samantha Shannon]

God. It still feels like a recent release to Me, it came out in 2019.

[Caroline]

But, like, yeah, it was. I started working on it before that. Yeah. So that. But, you know, I'm at peace with that book. Like, I'm. I'm happy with how it is overall. But the Bone Season series, I'm still working on now. And what I found was that in order, when I was trying to get people to read it, I would find myself saying, oh, you know, the first one I did right when I was kind of young. So there are things about it that, you know, might be a bit difficult. You know, the world building is a little bit inaccessible and there's lots of info dumping and stuff. And I realized I just didn't want to say that because I love the Bone Season. I am so passionate about this series and I believe in it so much, but I felt like I was working on a really shaky foundation and I was writing 10 years later, still adding books to the series while just being aware that the first installment was the weakest one. And that's not a situation you want to be in with a series. You want the first installment to be strong so that people want to continue the journey. So when my publisher said, ike, it's the 10th anniversary soon. We want to give it a new cover. And I said, great. How would you feel if I edited it? And they were sort of like, well, how much editing do you mean? And I was like, quite a. Quite a thorough edit and.

[Samantha Shannon]

And some new additions.

[Caroline]

Yeah, so they were. I think initially they were probably quite hesitant because I don't think any author has ever done an edit this extensive on an already published book. You have authors preferred text, but as far as I can tell, they're just little tweaks here and there. I was talking about full edit, like structural everything. And I was actually quite surprised that Bloomsbury let me do it, but I think I was just so passionate about it. I sat them down. I made this, you know, this big speech about why I wanted to do it and how I really wanted more people to read the series. And I wanted to be proud of the opening instalments. And I just felt like I could do it so much better. And the thing is, when I was writing it, I was not only very young, but during my debut year and the year before, like, there was a lot of buzz around me because of how young I was. Like, there was a huge amount of media interest and I basically became quite mentally ill because of. And I was struggling with, like, really severe anxiety. So I felt like during the editing process, I just dropped the ball because I didn't have the. The mental capacity to give it a proper edit. And now I'm past that period of my life. And like I say, I have got. I think I've built skill in my writing that I thought I could bring to the first book. I just felt like I had to do it. It was something I wasn't going to be at peace until I had done justice to the Bone Season. And now I feel like I have, you know, and it was sometimes just small things, like I think of a joke years later that I thought would be hilar. Hilarious and then I could put it in. So, yeah, I feel like a different person since I've been able to do that. It just has. Has completely. It's been such a catharsis. I just think now I can put all of the Bone Season books into people's hands and know that I am really proud of them. And again, if it had just been a trilogy that I wrote years ago, I might not have done that. But the fact that I'm still working on it now, I had to be proud of those earlier instalments. And now I am. And I ended up doing all of the books revised. And the revisions get lighter as we go along, as we get closer to present me. So the first two books are the ones that have the most editing on them. But yeah, I'm really proud of the author's preferred text. So I hope that will be the ones that people pick up in the future.

[Samantha Shannon]

It's such a fucking gutsy move. Congratulations. And also, with the exception of Taylor Swift, there's no precedent for it, really.

[Caroline]

No. I suppose maybe video games, game remasterings, I suppose.

[Samantha Shannon]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Like when they sometimes, like, they did like the Tomb Raider, sort of like after the Tomb Raider reboot came out, they did a kind of remastered version of it where the graphics were better. So I almost sometimes pitch it. I normally pitch it as just Samantha's version, like Taylor's version, because I think that's the easiest way to explain it. And I'm so glad Taylor did that just recently so that I had that comparison.

[Samantha Shannon]

Absolutely.

[Caroline]

Yeah. But it seems common in video games. It's clearly something.

[Samantha Shannon]

Cause they're constantly being updated, you know, constantly adding DLC and, you know, new material.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I think of it more like. Or maybe like a director's cut, that sort of vibe. But yeah, I was really proud of it. And the fact that Bloomsbury let me do it. And actually, I know other authors who are asking their publishers if they can do it now. So I have a friend called LR Lamb who's the author of Dragonfall and they have a series called Pantomime that I think they wrote that I think we debuted in the same year, actually 2013. And they've actually done a complete edit on theirs now. So I don't think it's, you know, I'm sure it's not something that's gonna massively catch on because it is quite a. It's quite a strenuous process going back to your old work and pushing through it and revising it and editing it.

[Samantha Shannon]

Even just mentally, like if I pick up my first novel, I just.

[Caroline]

Yeah, well, I've asked authors, would you do it or not? And I would say most of them say no just because they said it would just feel too mortifying to go back to that early work. And there were moments where I was like, oh, Samantha, come on, why did you do that? You clearly had like an open goal where you could have done some incredible character development there and you just missed it. But then I could do the character development now because I can see it. So, yeah, I think, oh, there's another author called Elizabeth May who have has a book called the Falconer which she's now revised and actually made it from YA to adult. So that was really interesting as well. But yeah, I'm sure it won't catch on extensively, but I, I'm glad that I did it and I, Yeah, I feel much better now.

[Samantha Shannon]

I love that. Thank you so much for coming in. I love this.

[Caroline]

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