Ashley Hamilton (2:35)

Yes.

Caroline (2:35)

And I am getting the plays out of that. And I have been ever since we were hanging out in like September. And we've just been compiling our Fallout Boy list ever since then. And there's something about it where, you know how there's like, this way that we as women talk about art online, and particularly men who make art, where we're like, ugh, I'm so sick of reading about just like men who hate women and who are just always thinking about their bodies and how much they want to hate fuck them. And we're like, ugh, I'm so done with it. I'm so sick of how these men talk about us. And every time I listen to Fallout Boy, I'm like, I'm not done at all with that. Actually. I. I actually love hearing about this, like, angry little guy who's so angry about how turned Arnie is by a lady.

Ashley Hamilton (3:23)

I guess it's because I don't think that they hate women. I think they hate themselves.

Caroline (3:29)

And that's actually really arousing.

Ashley Hamilton (3:33)

It's very sexy to find someone with the amount of self doubt that women have. Reading their history. I read their whole Wikipedia today just to brush up and I am like, okay, these people are. They are a true emo band. Even though they don't even like being called an emo band. They are in constant turmoil.

Caroline (3:51)

They really are. And I found as well, when trying to research them today, is that, like, for this podcast, I'm so used to researching female subjects, like, you know, whether it's Cher or Taylor Swift or whatever. And I think there's something about women performers, even if they're kind of fairly obscure women performers, they're so used to having to explain themselves to the world that they're so camera ready and succinct and ready to tell the story of their career at the drop of a hat. Like, you could like wake up in the middle of the night and they would be able to tell you their entire how we got here and who I am, I am kind of thing. Something about, like trying to follow the linear line of a male band. You're like, what are you talking about, man? What's, what is this? What are you talking about?

Ashley Hamilton (4:34)

Because they've both, they've been both, like, overwhelmingly celebrated and overwhelmingly hated. I think in like, for two things that make no sense, like Neither end of the spectrum really makes sense to me. And they've experienced both. Like, apparently Pete Wentz before he'd even joined a band because he was like part of the Chicago downtown, like, hardcore scene. Apparently he was like on the COVID of a local magazine before he was even in a band just because they thought he was so, like, cool and cute.

Caroline (5:05)

They were like 18 when they formed Fall Out Boys. So, like.

Ashley Hamilton (5:08)

Yeah.

Caroline (5:08)

How young was he then?

Ashley Hamilton (5:10)

I think he had been going downtown to hardcore shows since he was like 14 or 15, as the lore goes. And he was like kind of a scene celebrity because everyone was just like obsessed with him. I think he was in a bunch of random little bands downtown, but he was just kind of like a magnet where everyone was like, that's the guy.

Caroline (5:32)

I can so see that I can so see. I mean, looking at. It's not hard to see that when you're looking at, like young pictures of Pete Wentz being like, oh, of course the world would go crazy for you. You're like everything that MySpace promised men would be, you know.

Ashley Hamilton (5:46)

Yeah, exactly. And so I feel like he, you know, I feel like they've had both ends of the spectrum where, like, you know, they like, struggled a little bit. You know, they tried to get signed, they were putting out demos, whatever, but they had pretty early massive success. And then they had pretty early massive hatred. And you're just like, but why? And why? Like, it was just like the pendulum swinging really hard. And then they took a long time off. And I feel like they became such a punchline in a way where I'm like, well, they're not Nickelback. Why even Nickelback I sometimes defend, except for I think they've become kind of Republican. But there's nothing that, I don't know. There's nothing offensive about Fall Out Boy. They're having fun.

Caroline (6:32)

They're having fun. They're great to listen to. The lyrics are, like, incredibly complex for, like, I think what's the kind of. The beautiful surprise of listening to Fall Out Boy even as like a, you know, a fully 35 year old woman, is that, like, you're listening to this music that you want to, like, dance to and, like, get hyped for and like, generally when I'm on book tour, this is so sad. When I'm on book tour alone, it's like the thing I listen to, to get hyped up before I go out on stage and talk about my book for 45 minutes. Even though the two activities shouldn't be linked, they do. They Just, like, you just get excited listening to this band. But then, like, lyrically speaking, they're incredibly, like, interesting and complex and, like, have very interesting rhyming structures. And, like, the way Patrick Stump delivers so certain lyrics is kind of easy to make fun of because he's sort of, like, twisting someone else's words to fit into a rhyming scheme. And so that makes words like matteress, like, sort of come out insane, but it's still. It's, like, always interesting. It's, like, not by the numbers pop punk. It's not like. It's not like Guitar Hero music. It's complicated music, you know?

Ashley Hamilton (7:44)

Yeah. And it's so interesting reading about them. I guess they had, like, a lot of, like, fights on their early albums about lyrics and music and whatever, and so then they kind of separated it and they said, okay, Pete does the lyrics, Patrick does the music and that. I wonder if that's why some of it feels so preposterous, because he is, like, backwards flipping these lyrics into his melodies. But then it creates something that's so fun to listen to, because when. If everyone is just singing songs the way that words sound, like, what's fun about doing karaoke to that? You know what I mean? Unless you're, like, mimicking how he says mattress. Like, why would that even be fun?

Caroline (8:26)

Right? It's like. It's so. Right. It's like, you know, when you're. It's like, you know, a supermodel's beauty mark or a supermodel having buck teeth or whatever. It's like that. That point of sort of slight ugliness or difference or whatever. Or they put in something foul into every expensive perfume to make it smell all the better. It's like having. Having these little moments in every song that are like, did he just fucking say that? Did he just want to be the friction in my genes? It turns something ordinary into something with true generational sticking power.

Ashley Hamilton (9:00)

Yeah. And it all just feels so honest. I don't know. There's something about their music where I was listening to it and I was like, it's so specific that it has to come from something real. You're not sitting there being like, what's a love song that'll resonate? It's like the friction in your jeans that came from a place of watching someone hump.

Caroline (9:24)

And, like, there's some. So I got back into this band, first of all. Okay, hang on. No, I want to stop. Pause first. Because you are a millennial from Chicago.

Ashley Hamilton (9:33)

Yes.

Caroline (9:34)

So I would really like to go back to the beginning with you and Fall Out Boy. And if. Ideally, I would like this conversation to have the energy of two girls who. Who met on an emo chat room and then had to take the chat to MSN because the chat room was complaining that the emo girls were talking too much about Fall Out Boy.

Ashley Hamilton (9:52)

Okay, well, I am from Northbrook, Illinois. They, for the most part, are from Will Met Illinois, which is next door. So it was a really big deal for us. When I was in middle school, as their first albums were coming out, it was like, a huge fucking deal that these guys from Will Met had this major label situation or they were on Fueled by Ramen at first, which at that time was, like, one of the coolest. It's like, one of the indie labels that people knew of. And then they went over to Island Records, and so it was just like, a huge, huge deal locally that this. I mean, obviously was a huge deal everywhere because they were on a major label, and I think they debuted pretty well, but we were like, well, that's our thing. Like, no one else has even heard. Like, I would go places and people would be like, oh, yeah, I know Fall Out Boy. And I'd be like, but how they're from Will Met. That's kind of. For us. That's, like, our thing, I guess. How did you even know about it? And there was just, like, a lot of. I feel like I have all of the same references because we grew up in a similar space. Like, all of their. Like, even in their most recent album, Heaven or Iowa is one of the songs, which is like, a f. A Field of Dreams reference, which, like, of course everyone has seen Field of Dreams, but it feels so specific and so Midwestern, and they've, like, hung onto that so hard. Like, a lot of their early songs, like Homesick at Space Camp and Chicago is so two years ago. And all of those felt so, like. I feel like I had a real Fall Out Boy resurgence when I was, like, leaving Illinois to, like, go to college in New York and then move to la, where I was like, I have to leave this small town to follow my dreams. Like Fall Out Boy.

Caroline (11:30)

I love that so much. Like, so then does that mean that in the wake of Fall Out Boy so right there, I think most of them were born, like, 1982 to 1986 kind of thing. So they're not that much older than us. They just got famous incredibly young. So was there, like, a huge emo scene that, like, popped up around their success?

Ashley Hamilton (11:51)

Yeah, I feel I'M trying to think of, like, all of the bands that kind of, like, flooded into the zeitgeist in their wake, but I feel like it became a real. Like, that was, I think, for my group of friends, at least, like, the key genre. It, like, started with Fall Out Boy, and then we're listening to Panic at the Disco, and we were listening to, like, All Time Low. And I'm trying, like, there was, like, a whole group of them that I feel like Fall Out Boy was the gateway for. For me, at least. And it was. It was, like, all we listened to I got.

Caroline (12:22)

For me, it was Dashboard Confessional.

Ashley Hamilton (12:24)

Oh, my God.

Caroline (12:25)

Oh, my God. Like, just. I had never. And again, it's. It's the genre that's incredibly good at longing. Like, I remember listening to Hands down by Dashboard Confessional for the first time and, like, that guy just screaming heartbrokenly saying, hands down, this is the best day I can ever remember. And thinking like, this. You know that pain you feel as, like, an ugly preteen that you're like, no one will feel this way about me ever. Yeah. But also, if I listen to this song, maybe I can make it happen over and over again.

Ashley Hamilton (12:57)

Yeah, exactly. I feel like it was such a. I feel like the pop punk scene was so, like, primed for, like, me and my group of friends specifically because we were very, like, energetic. But, like, that, like, the whole pop pump thing, pop punk thing, is like, you're, like, jumping up and down and, like, screaming about how sad you are and how no one gets you.

Caroline (13:22)

Yeah, right.

Ashley Hamilton (13:23)

Yes, exactly. Like, I want to be jumping up and down and singing with my friends, but it's because I'm like. Because no one gets me.

Caroline (13:29)

It's so true. It's so like, this, like, one of my least favorite stock characters in any, like, TV show is like, you know, when they have, like, a random goth teen girl who's, like, miserable, and she's like, oh, God, I hate this, or whatever. And she's such an unfun character to ever, like. Like, whatever Jenna Ortega is. Is doing, I have no time for. But, like, like, it just because to me, it's, like, such a fundamental misunderstanding of girls who are like that. Like, if you. If you go into any, like, like, high school or secondary school and see a girl who's, like, wearing black lace tights on her arms and, like, she's got a big black T shirt over that and there's a tutu and whatever, like, she's gonna be the same girl who's, like, telling You. She's so random. And, like, how her and her friends have, like their own language and they're just like, you know, stealing shopping trolleys and riding around in them. Like, those are like the most high energy, freaky little girls. But they are also simultaneously upset about no one understanding them and changing their MSN bios to like, really upsetting lyrics at every available opportunity.

Ashley Hamilton (14:34)

It's so. It's hard because I love them for that, but I also am like, what is happening here? You have to get a grip, girl.

Caroline (14:43)

You have to get a grip. My experience with the band is so that, like, I feel like this is humiliating, but I've only really gotten into them as an adult, which is.

Ashley Hamilton (14:53)

I don't think that's humiliating. They write complex lyrics for complex people.

Caroline (15:01)

They do, and I'm one of them. But for me, it was like when I was growing up, so Cork was like a real metal town. Like, there was like, there's a. There's a metal club in Cork.

Ashley Hamilton (15:11)

From under a cork tree from under a cork.

Caroline (15:13)

Thank you. Thank you very much. There's like a strong goth and metal scene that ran through Korg in the kind of 90s and 2000s. And so it was all about, like, kind of obviously metal bands that I work, but also kind of grunge bands like Alice in Chains and everything was very heavy. And the people I was hanging out with around the time that Fall Out Boy, like, like managed to cross the Atlantic and like, wash up on our shores because it was like, it was still a time where, like, things were arriving to us a bit later. Like, I was probably 15 or 16 and the people I hung out with were like, it's the Pixies or It's Nothing. And. And so I was. I was so afraid of even listening to Fallout Boy or My Chemical Romance because I knew how good it was and how catchy it was and that I might find myself liking it. So it's that thing of being like, trying to run as far as you can away from it just in case you might get infected by how good it is.

Ashley Hamilton (16:08)

So I've never tried heroin, right?

Caroline (16:11)

It's exactly. That's exactly how I felt about emo music at the time, that I will get addicted to it and then I'll have no friends anymore and have no way to support myself. And then it was only like, as an adult. When I started writing ya, I was like, oh, I need, like a way to get into this sort of frame of mind of like, that. That specific thing. And that why I Love. Writing fiction for young adults is because you. When you're writing for children, for, like, proper children, I think you're writing about emotions that are happening for the first time. So it's like you're feeling jealousy for the first time. You're feeling anger, you're feeling love, you're feeling friendship. That's for kind of the under 12s. But when you're writing for teenagers, you're experiencing about those emotions. Venn diagramming for the first time. So you're like, oh, no, I'm feeling jealousy, but also lust. I'm feeling lust, but also, you know, feeling left, feeling fomo. It's like all these monstrous merging of emotions to create new sub emotions that is so well covered by emo as a genre. And so it was like in my 20s, I just started listening to all these bands again. Being like, this fucking rocks.

Ashley Hamilton (17:20)

It's amazing. Okay? So one of the things that I'm interested in, especially when I was really looking into Fall Out Boy for this, is like, why is it so teenage? You know what I mean? Because I feel like there is this kind of separation of what people think of as the cool metal punk bands, and then there's the ones that are for teenagers specifically. And I feel like Fall Out Boy really had to fight and then embrace being like, well, I guess we're for teenagers. And then millennials who remember us from when they were teenagers. And it's so.

Caroline (17:54)

Okay.

Ashley Hamilton (17:54)

So I remember from when I read Anthony Kiedis memoir, he was making fun of the who for being old sellouts who now just do stadium tours where the only people who can afford tickets are, like, boring old dentists.

Caroline (18:07)

It's so true, though.

Ashley Hamilton (18:09)

It's true. But then the next last year, Red Hot Chili Peppers announced their reunion tour, which was a big stadium tour with expensive tickets. And I'm like, well, look who's performing for the Dentists now. And I feel like it's this thing where I'm like, every, like, the Pixies, like, all of these bands that, like, were cool bands, like, they all become a little bit corporate at some point, for the most part, except for, like, Fugazi and so then. But, like, there's still the distinction that exists in our minds. You know what I mean? I feel like there are certain, like. Like, Alison Chains. If Alice in Chains went on tour with a band that was, like, considered, like, teenage nonsense back then, like, no one now would blink an eye. Cause they'd be like, I don't know. They're all kind of from the Same genre, I guess. Like, no one cares anymore. Like, it's not real anymore, but people still care in a way. I don't know.

Caroline (19:01)

I keep wondering about this. Cause that's something I kept thinking about while I was reviewing their, like, you know, early reviews and how much hate existed for this band at the time. And it really struck me that in a way, is there something kind of healthy about the music industry? Not like, not healthy, but, you know, I mean, like, where a world where people still cared about integrity so much that they were willing to hate on a band this much for being sort of, you know, on trl, for example. Because, like, Fall Out Boy, their big break was that they were just like this, you know, little band from Chicago. And then they kind of ended up on trl. And then Sugar We're Going down goes huge. And then you can literally see all these crazy. It just seems like from a different planet, this kind of material where, like, it's Fall Out Boy playing MTV Spring Break. And it's like all these, like hunky, you know, 17 year olds, shirtless and blonde, and they're just like holding their hands up to dance, dance and like, really going for it. But it's like they're in Florida and it's so. It's outdoors. And like, Patrick Stump seems like he's dealing poorly with the humidity and like.

Ashley Hamilton (20:10)

It'S so strange for warm climates.

Caroline (20:13)

He's not. He's just not. And like, it's crazy that that kind of band can exist in that kind of context in a way it just couldn't now, you know?

Ashley Hamilton (20:23)

Yeah, well, it's so weird. I feel like they were kind of like early in the genre bending kind of world where then they would get so much hate for it. Because I feel like now everything is everything. If that makes like. I don't know how to explain it. I feel like the Internet has made it so that, like, everything is for whoever finds it. And then whoever finds it then, like, feels empowered to go online and be like, I didn't like this. And it's like, well, it literally wasn't for you. Why would you like it? You know what I mean? I feel like there's music that I hear now that is being like, blasted the fuck out. And I go, I don't even know how this ended up on my fyp. It's not for me. But there's no reason for me to, like, hate on it. It's just not. Like, when I hear Tate McRae, I'm like, stop showing me this. It's not for me. Like, it's. But I have no problem with.

Caroline (21:13)

Someone tried to show me Tate McRae the other day. My friend was showing me, like, her big VMAs performance. And I felt. And obviously she's very skilled. But, like, I was just, like, so uncomfortable. I was like, I'm looking at a baby doing, like. I felt like, how much grown people have felt when Baby One More Time came out. It was like, this is wrong. This is illegal. Surely, surely.

Ashley Hamilton (21:35)

And so I see her and I'm like, but it's not for me to comment. Like, but now everyone thinks everything is for them, served directly to them. Like, anything they see is someone asking them, like, do you have commentary on this? And it's like, no, no, no, no. You're not supposed to have commentary on everything. And so I feel like, you know what I mean? Like, Tate McCray gets shown to me, but I don't have to think about her more often than I am right now.

Caroline (21:58)

Right. But this is. Okay, this. I find this interesting. This has come up for me on this podcast before when I've done episodes on, like, Kylie Minogue or Robbie Williams. Like, people who, for the moment in time, they were occupying. They were being blasted from every TV and every radio. And there was also, because people didn't live in their headphones in the way they do now, there was a more sense of like, I cannot escape this person now. I think we get that maybe with Taylor Swift, because she's managed to sort of jerry rig the industry, that she sort of is like part of the fabric in a way that actually we think of it as being a modern thing. It's actually quite dated. It was like that, that. That was happening more so in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, where you turn on a TV, there's. There's Kylie Minogue radio, there's Kylie Minogue try and buy something. It's a perfume by Kylie Minogue. And like, there was just fewer people and more of them going. In a way, I actually have sympathy for the amount of hate culture that exists around then because people were just so much more unavoidable. And now if someone comes up with my FYP enough, if I just swipe past them enough times, I'll never see them again. You know what I mean?

Ashley Hamilton (23:06)

Yeah, yeah, I guess I will. Okay, so the thing with Fall Out Boy that I keep on trying to figure out is, like, they were such an example to me of, like, well, what are people supposed to do? Like, not make money from their art.

Caroline (23:19)

Yeah.

Ashley Hamilton (23:19)

Or whatever. Because, like, they did come up in the way that bands are supposed to come up. You know what I mean? Like, they were a Chicago area, like, you know, hardcore band turned pop punk band. Like, Fall Out Boy was their side project for doing more hardcore stuff. And then that's kind of what people resonated with. And I'm like, are people not supposed to be allowed to make money making music? They're not an industry plant. They were just, like, guys making music that people like, isn't that who's supposed to be successful in music?

Caroline (23:50)

Right? So it's like. And also, it's like, if you really try and locate the hate as well. I don't think people felt the same way about someone like Sum 41, like, who had an enormous amount of success, had a similar kind of pop punk sound. But, like, when I talk to people now about some 41, there's a real feeling of, like, deep nostalgia and real fondness and especially a real fondness for that kind of silliness and that. I was talking to my husband about Fall Out Boy before this, and he's generally so unsnobby about things. And like is very. Like, very much subscribes to the worldview of this podcast. And he said to me, he was like, I think if Fall Out Boy was your favorite band now, something would be wrong with you. And I was. I couldn't believe it. I was like, why would you say that?

Ashley Hamilton (24:38)

They get okay. They are, like, such a punchline in a way that I really can't figure out. And I. I don't know what it is, because I. I feel like. Like, think about Blink 182, right? I'm like, they are goofball fucking weirdos with one guy who takes himself way too seriously and one guy who takes himself not seriously at all, and one guy who thinks he saw aliens. Like, why would Fall Out Boy be the punchline when we have Blink Crate 2? But, like, they're so prolific. Like, they really. I was. Look, I was like, they have so many albums and they have so much music, and they're constantly just, like, trying stuff. And why is that bad? I can't figure it out.

Caroline (25:18)

Why is that bad? Oh, God. I know that we both read in advance of this. Patrick Stump's sort of. It's quite old now. It came out in 2012. But basically he wrote a long essay about how it feels to be Patrick Stump, essentially. And at that point, they're, I think, their fifth album, Folie o de, which is a great album. And I'm Sure. We'll be talking about tracks from it in just a minute. How it was such a flop and how his solo project, like fans of Fall Out Boy, would buy tickets just to come up to him afterwards and tell him that he sucked and that he had to rejoin the band and, like, how horrible that was and how he essentially was made to feel like he was a child star who wasn't cute anymore.

Ashley Hamilton (25:59)

Yeah. Yeah, it's really sad. I mean, so at this point, Fall Out Boy had From under a cork, or they had what was the first album called Take this to your grave from under a cork tree, Infinity on High, and then Foley, A duh. And that Folia duh. I guess according to Consensus, bombed, but it still went gold. And now, I feel, is kind of beloved by Fall Out Boy fans. It's really weird because now when I see people talking about Fall Out Boy, they really, like, love Foley ada. But it apparently got, like, panned and everyone hated it, and it was just, like, a massive failure. And then I guess they all broke up, or not broke up, but, like, took a hiatus and Patrick Stump put out his own album, and everyone was so mean to him.

Caroline (26:43)

Why be mean to Patrick Stump?

Ashley Hamilton (26:45)

Like, why be mean to Patrick Stump? For what?

Caroline (26:49)

I sort of think one of the best lyrics ever, and maybe sort of lines of prose is, am I more than you bargained for yet? Because am I more than you bargained for? Sounds normal, but the yet, like, yet. What's he gonna do?

Ashley Hamilton (27:08)

They're constantly hedging their bets, these guys. They go, how about now? How about now?

Caroline (27:11)

How about now? How about now? There's something about it. Like, I tried to. For one of my teen books, I tried to make that the epigraph. Am I more than you bargained for yet? Because it was about a girl who had, like, a curse placed on her, and we couldn't afford it. But, Patrick, if you're listening, the intention was there.

Ashley Hamilton (27:30)

That's amazing. It's so. And it's. It hits so hard. As soon as that song comes on and he goes, am I more than you bargained for yet? You're like, okay, I guess let's start.

Caroline (27:44)

I guess we're here, Patrick. I guess we're here.

Ashley Hamilton (27:48)

I been dying to tell you, Eric, you are.

Caroline (27:52)

I mean, they're such a good karaoke band. Like, this is my karaoke song.

Ashley Hamilton (27:57)

Yes.

Hannah Burner (27:58)

Good.

Caroline (27:58)

It's like. It's good. Good. I think last time I saw you, I got so incredibly drunk that I tried to convince you to go back to your apartment. And sing Fall Out Boy. And you rightly put me in a cab.

Ashley Hamilton (28:15)

What was I doing that day?

Caroline (28:16)

I think it was the day of the Chicago Bears.

Ashley Hamilton (28:20)

Oh, my God. Wait, we saw. I was really drunk.

Caroline (28:24)

It was so fun.

Ashley Hamilton (28:27)

I made Caroline take a shot of Malort. You guys, if you've never heard of it, Google it.

Caroline (28:32)

I guess you made me take a shot of Mallor so I could prove to everyone that I was from Chicago. Because my favorite thing about going to a different country is pretending I'm from. Yeah, from a very specialized place, which is now Chicago. And apparently, if you're from Chicago, you have to have Malore. And apparently Malor is made of, like, wood, so.

Ashley Hamilton (28:53)

It'S, like, byproduct. I don't know what it is, but it's a very specific liqueur from the region.

Caroline (28:59)

Something I love about Sugar. We're going down. And I think. I know we're both Taylor Swift fans. I think you're more of a pessimistic Swiftie than I am, which is also fine.

Ashley Hamilton (29:11)

Listen, I was hanging on. I was hanging on to that branch, and she kept shaking me. She kept shaking me like a leaf. And finally I fell.

Caroline (29:18)

But, like, there's. There's something really interesting about viewing Fall Out Boy because she said many times over the years that one of her greatest lyrical inspirations are Fall Out Boy. And so I like listening to their songs sometimes and, like, sort of pretending it's Taylor. And, like, she's. She's like, referenced that. You know, the one of the moments she knew that she wanted to be a songwriter is when she heard the phrase a loaded God complex. Cock it and pull it. I was like, of course that's what you hung on to, Taylor Swift. Like, it kind of means nothing, but it's also so evocative.

Ashley Hamilton (29:52)

Yeah, yeah. And it means anything you want it to mean. And what it means is always going to be dramatic.

Caroline (29:59)

Exactly. Also, who has more of a loaded God complex than Taylor Swift? If that means anything, it's Taylor. I'm also just, like, obsessed with the line. Isn't it messed up how I'm just dying to be him?

Ashley Hamilton (30:15)

I feel like that is Fall Out Boy to me in a nutshell, is that they're all, like, so cockily insecure. Do you know what I mean? They're like, isn't it fucked up that I wish I was him? And it's like. Cause they think that they're the best one, but they're also dying to be everyone else. And you're like, there's something. Cause I read part of Joe Troman's memoir and I couldn't get through it because it was pissing me off.

Caroline (30:36)

He's the guitarist, right?

Ashley Hamilton (30:37)

Yeah. And he has this real complex of, like, Fall Out Boy exists because of him, where he thinks that he put the band together or like he held the band together during moments of strife, basically.

Caroline (30:52)

Oh.

Ashley Hamilton (30:52)

But then he feels like he's just kind of like the background characters for Patrick and Pete. And I am like. I mean, you kind of are.

Caroline (31:02)

Like, it's a kind of are.

Ashley Hamilton (31:03)

It's a very. Pick me. Like, I feel like sometimes you see people be like, ugh, Joe's my favorite. And you're like, yeah, fucking right. That's not true. Who's Joe? What are you talking about? Of course not. Of course it's. You're either like, obviously a Pete Wentshead because you were a teenage girl and you've seen him, or you were like, someone who wanted to be a little bit different. And you're like, well, I like that Patrick has that voice or whatever. Like, I don't care.

Caroline (31:30)

Yeah, yeah. You're not a Joe Head. It is very like. I mean, things like that always put me in mind of Ringo Starr getting the most fan mail.

Ashley Hamilton (31:38)

Yeah.

Caroline (31:39)

Which I feel like I think I've brought it up before, but, like, it's like, that's so indicative of, like, teen girl behavior and teen girl arithmetic to me of like, well, Ringo, no one thinks he's the best looking, so he'll definitely want to fuck me. And so everyone tries to fuck Ringo.

Ashley Hamilton (31:57)

Okay. This actually goes into my theory of what has evolved into, like, all of our hotness metrics now, where, like, the teen girl math is, like, low key. Who do I kind of have a shot with? And that's why it led us to a fucking. What's his name? Pete from snl.

Caroline (32:15)

Pete Davidson.

Ashley Hamilton (32:16)

Pete Davidson.

Caroline (32:17)

Yes.

Ashley Hamilton (32:17)

Timothy Chalamet. Like, look at all of these guys that are like, suddenly our hottest. The hottest ones who've dated every hot girl in Hollywood. It's the ones that we are all like, okay, but I lowkey have a shot with him. So then they become the number one guy. And you're like, no, no, no, no. You're the number one guy because we thought you were like, the most attainable guy. And that is like the beauty standard for men is being, like, low key, attainable.

Caroline (32:45)

Totally. It's Adam Driver, it's Miles Teller. It's all these people who were kind of got on our radars for being a Little bit weird looking. And now it turns out they treat. They're like, yes. They respond to being called their heart the same as everybody does, which is like, they act like they're a heart and above it, you know?

Ashley Hamilton (33:01)

Exactly. And now they're lost forever.

Caroline (33:03)

That's why. I know. I mean, I'm not personally that interested in Travis Kelce as, like, I find him. Like, I'm not attracted to him, but I do like the idea that the age of the thoughtful meatball is coming back. You know what I mean? Just like a big old hunk guy who's sort of, you know, he's been taught to open a door for a lady.

Ashley Hamilton (33:21)

Yes, that. Remember when all of his tweets were going viral and he's like, I just saw squirrel smash bread. That was like the most I've ever found him. Endearing is him tweeting about squirrels and being like. And he spelled squirrel wrong. And I'm like, of course. Why would you know how to spell squirrel?

Caroline (33:38)

Why. Why would you? Yeah, like, come on, you've. You have high school football scholarship and you've had so many smacks to the head, it's. It would be weird of us to expect you to spell squirrel, which, if you think about it, kind of a difficult word. A lot of unexpected double letters, you.

Ashley Hamilton (33:53)

Know, oh, my God, there's like those, you know. You know when you see like a little video on social media that, like, really tickles you and you go back to it. There's this one when you were trying to make French people say American words, and one of them was squirrel. And they, like, really couldn't figure it out. It is spelled so weird. They kept being like, it is squarella.

Caroline (34:17)

Exactly. Can't remember how we got here, but exactly, isn't it messed up how I'm just dying to be him? There's actually a great Chris Fleming bit because he went on an episode of Punch up the Jam about this song, which is basically a podcast where they try and make the hit songs better. And he said something about, isn't it messed up how I'm just dying to be him? Sort of sounds like the last kid awake at a sleepover. You know when you think everyone's asleep and then someone's voice just opens into the room. Isn't it messed up how I'm just dying?

Ashley Hamilton (34:51)

Like, it is a line that you've just been sitting on. You're like, okay, I'm finally ready to talk about this.

Caroline (34:58)

Like, no one's asking, isn't it messed up? I love It.

Ashley Hamilton (35:05)

I'm just not. Oh, wait, he's just a notch in your bedpost. But you're just aligning a song, Right?

Caroline (35:12)

Okay, so this is also, I think, the unique horniness of this band is that, like, as you say, like, they are dirtbags who don't like themselves, but they're so full of lust. And, like, the idea of, like, not in your bed post lying in a song is so. It's such a little dirt baggy. Like, no, you.

Ashley Hamilton (35:29)

I don't even care that you're a pretty lady.

Caroline (35:32)

You. Yes, I'm gonna write my little song.

Ashley Hamilton (35:35)

I would you. But if. But I don't want. I don't need to. You're just a notch in a bed.

Caroline (35:45)

I guess, as well, because so much of, like, you know, dating culture and romance culture. I mean, I have been out of the game for a long time, but so much of it seems to be my most beautiful friends being like, I cannot pay a guy to me right now. They are just not interested. They will not text me back. They will not meet up after the. The hinge thing.

Ashley Hamilton (36:05)

So dark right now. It is bad out here.

Caroline (36:08)

It is dark. And I do blame the phones. I do think people can only be horny if they're a little bit bored.

Ashley Hamilton (36:13)

Yeah.

Caroline (36:14)

And no one's a little bit bored anymore because everyone's a little bit interested in something on their phone all the time. And so, therefore, before the planet will die because no one will have sex. And so, like, every. Everyone I know is just trying to get some guy unhinged to meet up so maybe that she can get dicked, maybe. And the idea that, like, Fallout Boy is, like, losing it. They're like, oh, God, I just want to. God, I want to be with her. It's just like, oh, I'm so glad that there's still male longing out there. And that's what so many of these songs are about.

Ashley Hamilton (36:45)

I wish I was him. I would be the guy. It's so hot. It really.

Caroline (36:54)

It's so hot.

Ashley Hamilton (36:55)

I was not, like, dating. I, like, went on a couple of dates with a guy who, like, I remember on our first date, he was talking about, like, taking naps or something in a way that, like, was deeply upsetting to me. Like, I don't know how to explain it. I just was so, like. What do you mean? You, like, are always taking naps. That's. I don't.

Caroline (37:14)

That's so on erotic.

Ashley Hamilton (37:15)

It's so unerotic. And I. I'm, like, not a napper in general, so I feel like I'm a little bit biased, but I was like, I, like, what do you do all day that you, like, woke up at fucking, like, 8:30am and, like, need a nap at 3? Like, why are you. This is so weird. Anyway, so then, like, don't come to.

Caroline (37:35)

A date with your nap schedule. That's crazy.

Ashley Hamilton (37:38)

And then I went out with him, like, two more times. And then the last time that we were supposed to hang out, we were supposed to hang out a fourth time because it is bad out there. I can't be that picky. And he, like, we were supposed to hang out. And I texted him at, like, maybe, like, five, being like, what time do you want to meet up? And he texted me at, like, 8, being like, sorry, just woke up from a nap. Do you still wanna hang out? And I just never texted him back because I was like, what do you mean you were napping from 5 to 8 on a Saturday? What's wrong with you?

Caroline (38:15)

I hate. Are you a baby? Are you, like, like, like. Also, why is it getting harder to believe that. Sorry, go on.

Ashley Hamilton (38:23)

Oh, I was gonna say, and, like, then we had plans. Like, why didn't you text me before your nap saying, hey, can we meet up at, like, 9? I don't know. Like, it's just one of those things where I'm like, okay, your life is ruled by taking naps, and this is too pathetic for me.

Caroline (38:36)

You would never get that at a Pete Wentz or Patrick Stump. Like, they're very different men, but wherever they are, they are thinking about you and, like, what they're gonna say when they see you.

Ashley Hamilton (38:46)

Yeah, and if they were gonna have sex that night, they wouldn't have fallen asleep and forgotten.

Caroline (38:54)

God, that's so upsetting. Ashley, I'm really sorry. Like, I am so prepared for the men to be a bit worse if they can just want something, you know.

Ashley Hamilton (39:04)

Care about anything other than sleeping more. Jesus fucking Christ.

Caroline (39:10)

Oh, can I talk about another line that haunts me from Fall Out Boy? Yeah, it's from thanks for the Memories, a song I love. And literally every time I leave an event that I didn't have a good time, but I know I'm gonna gossip about it later. I'm just like, thanks for the memories, even though they weren't all that great. But it's like, I know I'm gonna talk about this, though. I didn't enjoy being here. But it's the line, he tastes like you, only sweeter.

Ashley Hamilton (39:37)

Ooh.

Caroline (39:38)

Like, just the idea of this lady hectoring Pete west but this is also the interesting thing about so many of their lyrics and also about the kind of enduring appeal of Mr. Brightside is that, like, men showing their sort of tipping their hand because, like, so, so little. We are such a no homo culture still when it comes to men and their desire. And eventually they will, like, this is why, like, cuckolding porn is such a huge category. Eventually all of them will admit in some way or another that a huge part of their erotic drive is imagining what other men think of them. Yes. Like, right, okay.

Ashley Hamilton (40:20)

There are so. I mean, male beauty standards are invented by men. Like, they. Everyone liked Andy from Parks and Rec more than they like Chris Pratt. But Chris Pratt currently is like, a hotter man to men.

Caroline (40:36)

Crazy. You're so right. You're so right. He, like, they leave us. Do you know what I mean?

Ashley Hamilton (40:40)

Yes. As soon, like, when a man gets deemed hot, like, it's by women, it's like a one that they think is attainable and, like, won't hurt their feelings. When a man is deemed hot by men, he becomes an action star. But women are, like, pretty freaked out by you.

Caroline (40:57)

So true. And there's this kind of hunk to action star trajectory where, for example, we sort of had Matthew McConaughey in this sort of stable or this finishing school for approachable, sort of interesting, kind of funny, quirky men who have nice bone structure but also just seem like a good hang. And then he just sort of went back through the barn door to action star. And sort of not action star, but also like Oscar baity, sort of like, I'm a toxic man in a suit in an Office Y movie and I'm Wolf of Wall street banging my chest, drinking my cum kind of thing. And it's then they become so uninteresting to us. And I think it's why we talked about this in the Barbie episode. It's why we love Ryan Gosling so much. Just because he always comes back for us.

Ashley Hamilton (41:44)

Yes, he does always come back for us. He cares about us.

Caroline (41:51)

He wants to take us on the adventure, you know, and we want to come.

Ashley Hamilton (41:55)

I'm there.

Caroline (41:56)

Yeah, but like, all this to say, like, so much of, like, the eroticism in songs on under the Cork Tree and in what's it called, that third.

Ashley Hamilton (42:05)

Album, Infinity on High.

Caroline (42:07)

It does seem to be about, like, what are other men doing with the woman I want to have sex with and how can I think about them? And, like, I think about this all the time with Mr. Brightside, it's all about, like, touching his chest now. And, like. Oh, God. Like, it's, like, all about watching from a secret place in your mind.

Ashley Hamilton (42:25)

Yes.

Caroline (42:25)

You know, it's all.

Ashley Hamilton (42:28)

Yeah. I really think what resonates is, like, the belief. I feel like they're that exact, like, teenage angst of, like, I could be him. I'm just not. And so I'm watching you guys together. But, like, why not me?

Caroline (42:41)

Why not me?

Ashley Hamilton (42:41)

Like, it's like, that cockiness of, like, it could be me. And it's. It's not. And I noticed that. But why isn't it?

Caroline (42:50)

Which is also, like, such the. That observation is the entry point for so much of incel. Culture of, like, that whole. That whole idea of, like, I'm a nice guy, used to make art. Incels used to join bands and make art and then just all get over it together and go out with Ashley Simpson, you know?

Ashley Hamilton (43:11)

Okay. Can I say that actually is true. I do feel like there was, like, a whole era where joining a band was because you, like, couldn't get laid and wanted to get laid. And we're like, if I am on stage playing a guitar, someone will now, like, it doesn't matter what a fucking weirdo I am. Someone will have sex with me. And now they're in chat rooms instead of learning how to play the goddamn guitar.

Caroline (43:30)

Oh, like, it's so. I think. I think we're all kind of really begging for this, the romantic period of the band. Like, you know, the idea of bands as being the biggest acts in the world and. Which is why it's so like, if, like, a band like Fall Out Boy came around now and they enjoyed the same level of success as they did in 2005, I would. I think the whole world would be so charmed that a band was being famous at all playing rock music. You know, we'd be like, wow, the kids are listening to rock music again. That's amazing.

Ashley Hamilton (44:00)

Literally.

Caroline (44:01)

And I think something that's like, you know, a band that is obviously doing huge right now is Kneecap, which I'm sure you know all about in the. You guys know about that in the States, right? That's all.

Ashley Hamilton (44:12)

Oh, yeah. My favorite terrorist.

Caroline (44:17)

And I just keep thinking about, like, if you, you know, compare. I mean, there's almost nothing in common for these two to compare them, but in terms of, like, being politically outspoken, like Chapel Roan to meet Cap, right? And bear with me, I'm cooking. And the. I remember, like, Chaperone said some stuff about the Democrats on TikTok about a year and a half ago, and she got so criticized en masse so quickly that she kind of sort of logged on and was like, very sheepishly like, oh, you know, I'm learning. Two guys, whatever, Bye. And then sort of canceled a bunch of dates and clearly was having a very hard time with being a star and expressing herself and expressing her beliefs and trying to find an equilibrium with that. The thing about Kneecap is there are a bunch of guys who've known each other forever, and they all know what the other person believes in. And so they know that no matter what they say or do, that all their friends are going to be like, yeah, that's what we stand for. And so there's never a moment where they have to, like, disappear into their phone in the dressing room and wonder if they've cost their entire fortune, because they just go and see the other guys and they're like, go, you, man, we love you. And that's what we stand for, I imagine. I'm sure there's like, other problems in Niko, but do you mean the idea a band is so much harder to destroy than an individual? And that is so romantic to me.

Ashley Hamilton (45:37)

Yes, it really. I mean, me and Claire talk about it all the time, how grateful we are to, like, have each other and to be doing this together. Because even with, like, touring or something. We've talked about this. Touring can get very, like, lonely, and we don't even tour that extensively. But, like, having someone there, even for, like, a solo act like Chapel Roan is obviously touring with a group of people. She has her band, she has her, like, backup people, roadies, whatever, but, like, it's a power imbalance because she's the star, so it's not like she's in community with the people. Like, she. She can have friends on tour with her, I'm sure, but it's not the same as, like, having a partner on tour with you. And so then I feel like it is so different having a band where you can, like, just kind of, like, spiral or uplift each other or, like, I feel like me and Claire always talk about how, like, when one of us is, like, melting down the other one is, like, usually pretty good about being like, let me study this.

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Caroline (48:10)

Tell me a lyric that you love.

Ashley Hamilton (48:13)

Okay, I guess I love Fall Out Boy. Depressed, which unfortunately. Listen, I know they struggle with mental health issues, but it's really good. They go in. This ain't a scene, it's an arms raise. He writes, I wrote the gospel on giving up.

Caroline (48:30)

I wrote the gospel on giving up.

Ashley Hamilton (48:32)

Yeah, I wrote the gospel on giving you about that. It's just so. I'm like, what are you. It's so dramatic. I wrote the gospel on giving up. You look pretty sinking but the real bombshells have already sunk. And then he says, at night we're painting your trash gold while you sleep. I remember thinking about this, oh my God, so much while he. Like when it came out at night we're painting your trash gold while you sleep. Crashing. Not like hips or cars no, more like parties. And I'm like, what the fuck are you even talking about? This is nonsense. And I love it.

Caroline (49:07)

It's. But it's like, it functions like poetry in that you almost have to look at it with one eye closed and.

Ashley Hamilton (49:12)

Like, yeah, we're painting like trash gold while you sleep.

Caroline (49:16)

It like, it's like, it's one of those things. It's like, you know, a Loaded. God complex. Cock it and pull it. You're like. Like, it means everything yet specific. Like, literally nothing. Like the. We're painting your trash gold while you sleep.

Ashley Hamilton (49:29)

Like prima donnas of the gutter. I feel like it's so. Like, I feel like when I was a teenager being like, I'm so complicated. Like, I'm a. Like, I'm just like a piece of. A prima donna of the gutter. Like, I'm fancy, but I'm a piece of.

Caroline (49:42)

But also the. Like, I'm fancy, but I'm piece of. Like, the. The. It's the translation as well, from. From lyric to delivery again, as we said, it's Pete Wentz's job to write a bunch of lyrics, and then it's Patrick Stump's job to sort of cram those lyrics into a rhyming scheme. And because of that, you sometimes get these really surprising kind of stanzas. Like, lines will end and then bleed into the next line.

Ashley Hamilton (50:11)

Yes.

Caroline (50:12)

Like, there's this bit from Grand Theft Autumn I'm obsessed with where he's like, someday I'll appreciate in value. Get off my ass and call you. And meantime, I'll sport, like, brand new fashion of waking up with pants on. It's just like, the way that a line will carry on into the next verse or into the next with a stanza or whatever. Like, it just really speaks to somebody who's, like, cramming stuff. Cramming too much water into too small a jug. And that makes it really exciting.

Ashley Hamilton (50:48)

Yes. And it, like, I feel like it's so melodramatic. Like, it really is this thing of being like. I feel like it really speaks to the, like, teenage angst of being like, I'm such a piece of shit, but I'm, like, up here and dancing. And the music itself, like, speaks to that, where you're just like, I'm a piece of shit. But I'm still performing. Like, I'm still, like, out here showing up and doing stuff. Do you know what, like, the lyrics themselves are so just, like, I hear how it's annoying, but it's so good.

Caroline (51:21)

It's so good. Yeah, they seem to be. It seems like so much of the lyrical content of Fall Out Boy across, like, however many albums is either this girl doesn't like me enough or doesn't like me at all, which is great. Which is just like an endless. Because you get to be. Whenever you're listening to it, you get to be the girl. You get to be the girl who. Who does not deign to have Sex with Pete Wentz. And, like, that puts you as the listener in this position of power, which I think is what, like, is the rocket fuel behind this band's fan base, you know?

Ashley Hamilton (51:52)

Yes. Wait, I just found one that I feel like you're gonna go crazy over. Okay, so one of my favorites is the song Dead on Arrival off their first album.

Caroline (52:00)

Yes.

Ashley Hamilton (52:01)

A rivalry goes so deep between me and this loss of sleep over you.

Caroline (52:08)

Over me.

Ashley Hamilton (52:11)

I am like, what do you like? It's so funny to be like, this is, like, we're in a huge fight. Not me and you. Me and me not being able to sleep because of you.

Caroline (52:25)

That song has one of the best choruses ever. Like, this is side one. Flip me over. I know I'm not your favorite record, but the songs that you grow to, like, never stick at first. So I'm writing you a chorus, and here is your verse.

Ashley Hamilton (52:41)

Psycho.

Caroline (52:42)

Psycho. But so smart and such. It's so Taylor as well. It's a little bit Taylor. Like, it's very good.

Ashley Hamilton (52:50)

I really feel like Taylor could never hit this level of self deprecating. I'm not your favorite record, but these songs grow. Like, these songs you go to, like, never stick at first.

Caroline (53:02)

That's. It's so true. Yeah. No, you're dead right. It's not something that you could write now. Because that joke about I'm a music critic made about Love Story is that she's so, like, toxically positive that she rewrites Romeo and Juliet to be, like, a happy story and whatever. And, like, Ophelia is about a girl who doesn't kill herself or whatever. If this were a Taylor Swift line, it might have the same structure, but it would be like, I am your favorite record. Flip me over. Listen again.

Ashley Hamilton (53:28)

Yes.

Caroline (53:28)

Do you know what I mean?

Ashley Hamilton (53:29)

Exactly. It would be like, this is side one. Flip me over because it's your favorite record, and you're gonna keep listening and listening and listening and listening. And I love her for that, but I need both. Like, I feel like it is such the teenage experience to be like, I need. It's a love story, baby. Just say yes. And I need. I'm not your favorite record, but maybe I'll grow on you.

Caroline (53:55)

Oh, my God. Another one that I find. So we either have, like, deeply erotic. And of all those songs, one of the ones I enjoy the most is of all the gin joints in all the world.

Ashley Hamilton (54:07)

Yeah.

Caroline (54:08)

Just the idea of someone saying to you, turn off the lights and turn off the shyness makes me feel 15. Like, oh. Oh, my God.

Ashley Hamilton (54:18)

Because all our moves make up for the silence.

Caroline (54:20)

Oh, my God, the way your makeup stains my pillowcase. Like, these are lyrics that don't sound that impressive when you're saying them to your friend over a zoom call. But, like, when. Then you have Patrick Stumm sort of like. Like, he's, like, incredible soul voice. Like, he does sound like a soul singer. So the time. Soul punk. Exactly. And he's. The way he stretches his vowels. And you're like, the way makeup's dead by Pillowcase. It's like, what is this one of the Jackson 5 singing to me? I love it.

Ashley Hamilton (54:55)

God, I wonder how different Fall Out Boy would be if any of them were over, like, 5, 10. In a positive way. I do feel like, in the same way that I wish incels would pick up a fucking guitar. I wish that short kings who took out their anger on, like, all of these guys need to just learn music, and it's fine.

Caroline (55:16)

Just learn music, guys. But once again, you have to be a little bit bored to want to have sex, and you have to be really bored to learn the guitar. Like, we are just. I just don't think we're gonna get another great artistic moment until we all just let ourselves be bored for longer. And I include myself in that.

Ashley Hamilton (55:33)

It's so true. I need to delete social media from my phone so that I can make art.

Caroline (55:40)

You're gonna be saying that until you're 60 years old. Do you know that?

Ashley Hamilton (55:42)

Exactly. And you know what? What if I make a rule that I can never increase the text size on my phone, so when I can no longer see it, I have to just go make art? That could work.

Caroline (55:54)

But the other genre, okay, there's the unsort of satisfied lust and mild hatred for the person who won't have sex with you, which, as we've established, we find hot. But there's also the other bucket of Fall Out Boy lyrics is. I'm not sure how I feel about being a rock star. And I know that all rock bands have a genre of song. I'm not sure how I feel about being a rock star, but I think they're very good at it.

Ashley Hamilton (56:20)

Yeah. Oh, they're so good at it because they're all these guys who are just so, like. I feel like they hit such a weird genre of rock star where they, like, were not accepted. They were accepted by, like, pop industry. Like, they were doing trl. They were doing all these things, but I feel like they never were, like, a part of any sort of, like, circuit of rock Stars. Do you know what I like, I.

Caroline (56:47)

Don'T know how to explain it. No, totally. Right. I think they were part of the emo circuit for sure. I mean, from Panic at the Disco and Any Given Sunday or what. Although it's not any Taking Back Sunday. Yeah, different. They definitely toured with that. But I feel like. Because I don't know if this makes sense or whether it rings true, but. But they were the first people to almost break the genre. So everybody who came up behind them was a little bit younger than them or they were newer to them. So could they kind of cut the. Sort of cut the line, the machete through the long grass in order to blaze this path for bands like Paramore. And I don't think Paramore got an easy time of it either. But they also had people to look up to who were doing it for a few more years than them, like Fall Out Boy. Whereas Fall Out Boy were kind of. There was no mentors for them. It seemed like. It didn't seem that there was anybody who was, like, taking them on tour with them or like. I'm sure there was, but, you know, I mean, like, mentoring them in a significant way.

Ashley Hamilton (57:47)

Yeah, it's hard to tell. Like, I guess they all just had, like, mental illness. Because they all. I mean, reading their Wikipedia, like, before their second album, I think Pete had a bit of a breakdown and, like, attempted suicide in a Best Buy parking lot.

Caroline (58:05)

Oh, gosh.

Ashley Hamilton (58:06)

And I think that was like a whole. And then they've all had their kind of, like, public moments of discussing previous issues. And so I wonder if it is just one of those things where, like, I don't know, I feel like they were kind of early to the conversation talking about the price that fame has. Do you know what I mean? And then, especially because people were, like, so mad, they were also, you know, obviously part of the sellout conversation. And so I feel like for, like, men to be talking about, like, the mental toll and then also having people, like, still bang down their door and be like, well, it's cause you're sellout losers. Like, that was really bad.

Caroline (58:49)

Right, right. Like, they were kind of. They weren't really getting sympathy from anywhere because their fan base were too young to really understand the cost of what it was they were going through and the cost of touring from the age of 17 and never going to college, but making music for dorm rooms must be such a thing. And then an aging through that and, like, what it must feel like to, you know, have to have conversations about the business that you now run when no one's taught you how to run a business. And also, yeah, you're kind of keeping this perpetual idea of youth alive. And these are all ideas that are far too complex for a audience of generally like 14 to 17 year olds or you know, people who are in college or whatever. And so it's very interesting when somebody's internal state, they can't really be matched by their own audience. But also they were getting nothing but shit from the industry, from the reviews being this like constant punchline of like a certain kind of music. And like, and, and no one's even being specific about what they mean. It's just like. And I guess actually what it comes back to is that it, like it's, it's the age old thing of it being music for girls. It's like the, it's heavy rock music that has a melody and interesting, complex lyrics that therefore girls really glom onto. Girls cheapen the kind of artistic worth of something. And that's why we do this podcast, you know, it's like. And like that. Yeah. And like that's. And that's it. And then therefore they can never be sort of accepted by any kind of musical standard.

Ashley Hamilton (60:23)

Yeah. Like, it is like really sad looking at like that essay that Patrick Stump wrote where he's talking about being a 27 year old has been where he's like, I just don't even really know like what I did wrong. But I'm in this weird space where like my fans don't like me and my haters don't like me and I'm just kind of trying to keep making music. But it's really hard when everyone, like when the cool thing to do is hate you.

Caroline (60:54)

How do you deal with that? Like, how on earth can you deal with it especially? Cause it's like if you're a child actor, for example, I imagine there's a, like someone like Mara Wilson or whatever. I imagine to some degree she's just like, well like the industry has spoken for me in that I am not getting the roles anymore and it's time to sort of get on with the rest of my life. But if you're a musician, like it's a vocational thing, like you're gonna be making music for the rest of your life. And if you've been touring for a fucking decade, since the age of 17, they're really kind of, I guess you can start writing songs for other people, which I know Patrick did do. But like you don't really know how to do anything else. And People just keep screaming at you to stop. And also, like, it's so violent.

Ashley Hamilton (61:33)

Like, not only do you not want to know how to do anything else, but like, why would you want to do anything else? Because you live your dream of being in a world famous rock band and now you're supposed to be like, well, at least I have this computer degree to fall back. Like, even if you had an ability to do something else, it's so weird to believe that you would be like, okay, rock band career is over. Now I'll go be a lawyer. I know some people do that, but it's obviously not something you would want to do if you, like, it's that weird push and pull of like, oh, my dreams mean that lots of people on the Internet can just say mean things to me constantly. But also not doing my dreams. Like, when your career is your art, it's so weird to be like, I'll just not.

Caroline (62:20)

Right, right. And there's just like, with something of someone of that stature, like, if they had a platinum record 15 years ago, you. And like, he's very upfront about it where he's like, yeah, like, I spent my nest egg self producing my title album, my solo album that nobody bought. Like, he's very like, I'm sure he's doing fine now. This was written quite a while ago.

Ashley Hamilton (62:39)

But I mean, they've had a real resurgence. I saw them at Forest Hills like two years ago and that was, I think, sold out. And that's like a pretty big venue.

Caroline (62:49)

Yay.

Ashley Hamilton (62:50)

So nice. Because when you look at their career, this. So the irony of that piece is that according to Wikipedia, that is what reconnect. Like, him and Pete were never like fully out of touch. But that piece, when he published it, is what made Pete call him and be like, I'm in a bad place too. Let's kind of like feel it out together. And then they started making music together again. And then the back half of their career kind of came from that kind of meeting. And they've put out, I think, like four albums since then, some of which have done better than others and some of which I've paid attention to more than others. But like, there is a whole second half of their career that, like the first part was 2001 to like 2010 maybe. And then there was a whole nother chunk that was like 2014 to now.

Caroline (63:40)

So they are. And like, they are actively producing music still. Like, they just this week came out with a Christmas song that is a. A cover of the Muppets Christmas Carol. The. It's in the singing of a streetcar. A choir, that one, like, which is like, it's nice. And then a couple of years ago, they did like a cover of We Didn't Start the Fire, but just like with modern, you know, modern news things, which is like. I mean, I know it's like, like funny, but it's. It's like, it's nice that they're having fun. Do you know what I mean?

Ashley Hamilton (64:08)

Yeah.

Caroline (64:09)

It feels like they've. They're entering in that kind of Blink182 kind of goofball where they're not as self conscious about what they're doing and how it's being taken. And that can only spell good things for any artist.

Ashley Hamilton (64:20)

Yeah. And I feel like it takes so long to get, like, they had to break up or not break up, hiatus to get there. Because I feel like when you're so caught up in your own lore, it can be so hard to like, move on.

Caroline (64:34)

Right. Like, I. I am continuously surprised by, in my, like, rinky dinky little media career how, like when I do something that's like a little bit more successful than the other things I've done, how hard I find moving on from it. You know what I mean? Like, I still find it hard moving on from having done a Sex and the City podcast during COVID Like.

Ashley Hamilton (64:56)

They'Re so.

Caroline (64:57)

That's crazy. But you must feel the same about the memoirs, right?

Ashley Hamilton (65:02)

Yeah, I mean, constant like it. I mean, and obviously we've only been moved on from it for like two months, but I feel like there are still, you know, we've still covered like a memoir or two since we stopped covering memoirs, and it's only been two months. And so people will like, still send us constantly memoirs. And some of them, I'm like, oh, my God, no. The reason we stopped specifically covering memoirs is that I didn't have to cover the ones that I like. Truly, I don't even know who this person is. Like, what are you talking about? And obviously we still, every day get messages from people saying, like, go back to memoirs. Go back to memoirs. And I'm like, no, I like.

Caroline (65:38)

Okay. So for context, for listeners who don't know, haven't figured this out yet, Ashley and her partner, Claire Parker, used to do a podcast called Celebrity Memoir Book Club. And now they do a wonderful podcast called Good Noticings, where basically one of them was about memoirs. The other one is closer to, like a high, low structure where it's like a magazine show about, like, what's happening in Pop culture. Both podcasts, great. But like, yeah, it's so strange to me. I have never sent an email to a creator in my life suggesting they do anything. But the amount that I receive and that I know you receive is boggling to me. I was like, wow, star signs really must exist because people are just so comfortable telling you what to do. And I would just never do that. What star sign is that that everyone's under that makes them say they can just fucking message you and say, do this.

Ashley Hamilton (66:25)

It's so weird the way that people. I guess, like, even when we were doing celebrity memoir book club and like, now there's a little bit more, like, space for suggestions. Cause we cover so many topics per episode. But the one that really used to upset me is when people would just say, do this memoir. I don't know what it was, but, like, the demand of it, like, getting a message saying, oh my God, do you think you guys are gonna cover this one? Wouldn't bother me. But when people would send me a message and say, do this one, do this one next, I would go totally with you.

Caroline (66:57)

It's so about the tone. It's so about the, like, it's like someone who's like ordering something at a restaurant and it's like, you know, you don't pay me at all. Like, you don't. Like, I don't even have a Patreon. You don't pay me at all. Why are you acting so authoritatively over me? It's so rude.

Ashley Hamilton (67:14)

It really drove me insane. And I don't think that they really meant anything by it, but, like, it was the way that it just was so flippant and demanding. I was like, how fucking dare you?

Caroline (67:30)

And right, right. Like, this is us with again, our rinky dinky media careers. We will never be invited to the Grammys. We are never going on trl. And like, it drives us crazy. These were teenage boys that were put in front of the world.

Ashley Hamilton (67:44)

It really, like, I don't know how they deal with it. Like, every time I think about the way that celebrities go through stuff, the way that, like, the messages I get, I'm like, if this was times even six, yeah. I would lose my mind. And they're. I would walk into traffic.

Caroline (67:59)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Times a billion. Yeah, exactly. It's funny. It's funny how. How little of a career you need to have in the public eye in order to start relating to celebrities.

Ashley Hamilton (68:11)

As a celebrity myself, let me tell.

Caroline (68:13)

You, as a celebrity myself, I wanted to talk about some of their I hate being famous and I don't know what to do about it. Lyrics. Because I really think their best fucking song is 27 a Falieu deux. And the chorus goes like, my mind is a safe and if I keep it in, we'll all get rich. My body is an orphanage. We take everyone in. Doing lines of dust and sweat off of last night stage just to feel like you.

Ashley Hamilton (68:43)

Wow.

Caroline (68:44)

Doing lines of dust and sweat off last night's stage just to feel like you. Just to feel like. Like looking out at your audience and being like, if I could feel as good playing these songs as these people do hearing these songs, I'd have it made. But now I just have to do lines of dust and sweat of the stuff. It's so good.

Ashley Hamilton (69:05)

Oh, my God, I love your note. This is the life of a showgirl.

Caroline (69:11)

Honestly. 27 is the life of a showgirl. Like. And then the. The kind of the bridge is. I got a lot of friends who are stars, but some are just black holes.

Ashley Hamilton (69:22)

God damn. Wow.

Caroline (69:25)

So good. It blows my hair back. That song I listen to on the treadmill all the time.

Ashley Hamilton (69:33)

I'm gonna listen to our playlist on my run today. I, like, can't believe I don't. Some of it is just so, like, intense. And then the musicality is like. It hits so hard. And so I am like, what do you mean? Like pop punk bullshit. It's so good.

Caroline (69:54)

Like, people who dismiss this man don't know a thing about the man.

Ashley Hamilton (70:02)

God, what a catch. Donnie is such an insane song. It's so just like. I mean, you really hear the origins of soulpunk.

Caroline (70:12)

Yeah.

Ashley Hamilton (70:12)

And then like the constant references back to their own work. I feel like when people thought that that was gonna be like the curtain call for the band, and I was like, yeah, it sounds like it.

Caroline (70:22)

It sounds like one. Because what a catch, Donnie. It starts with Patrick Stump, like, on a piano doing this very soul thing. I've got, you know, I've got self esteem. What's the line again? I've got.

Ashley Hamilton (70:36)

I've got troubled thoughts and the self esteem to match.

Caroline (70:39)

Just him in the piano. And then it kind of slowly builds. It's kind of their. I feel like emo bands really like playing with that Les Miserables one day. More structure of just having all these voices coming in and gathering. And it feels like the end of act one of a musical.

Ashley Hamilton (70:54)

And, you know, I love that too.

Caroline (70:57)

I love that too. My Chemical Romance. I'm not okay And. And like. Or welcome to the Black Parade, like, so Good. And, like. And you have all these emo singers who are throughout. What a catch, Donnie. Taking all these, like, famous lines from Fallout Boy's career from Dance, Dance from Sugar. We're going dance from. Yeah, from so many of them, singing them in this kind of slow, funereal way. And then I only found out today that the Donny that the title refers to is Donny Hathaway, who was a soul singer who worked with Roberta Flack and who jumped to his death from a balcony. And, like, so to invoke a story like that and a singer like that at the end of this album and then have all these emo artists who you have toured with and who you've come up with, plus Elvis Costello, for some reason, like, singing your. Like, it does sound like that you're singing your own funeral dirge in a way. Mm.

Ashley Hamilton (72:04)

And I feel like they think they were. And then for that album to have flopped so hard. And again, it didn't even flop that hard. It just comparatively to infinity on high kind of ate shit and got really negative reviews. Like, imagine what that must have felt like to put your heart on a track like this and then have people, like, hate it.

Caroline (72:21)

God, I hadn't even thought of that. Like, to end your big album with this, like, real accomplishment. And you're really invoking a very. Like, a very specific person, a very specific frame of mind. The thing that, like, Pete Wentz has said about this song, he said, I really wrote this song thinking about Patrick. I was like, okay, so you've invoked this famous soul singer with. For your bandmate who has this famously soul voice, and this guy jumped off a balcony in New York City, like, what are you trying to tell us about Patrick, Pete? And I think that's also something that's just so magical about the band that you have this sexy guy who. Who kind of is very bad at expressing himself in interviews. Like, if you listen to a Pete Wentz interview, it is a waste of your time. Like, you just cannot fucking throw a sentence together. And he's writing all this music to be sung through. This kind of, like, with. With great respect, this kind of homely guy, like, who. It's not. It's not that you would, like, not date him or anything. It's just that compared to one of those beautiful men of his generation, you know, they had to put him in.

Ashley Hamilton (73:27)

Hats, you know, Pete Wentz is just, like, so cute. He was just so cute. And there's nothing you could do about.

Caroline (73:37)

It but think how hard that must have been. For Patrick.

Ashley Hamilton (73:42)

I know. And it is so hard because I kind of feel like no matter what, Pete Wentz would have been the star because of the thing that we're talking about where, like, girl math is not picking the lead singer.

Caroline (73:53)

Yeah. It kind of didn't matter where he placed in the band.

Ashley Hamilton (73:56)

Like, that's basically what one of the main conflicts of fucking Almost Famous is about, is that, like, sure, Russell Hammond is, like, sexier than the lead singer guy, but, like, not by a mile. Like, not, like, not by that far. But he just isn't the lead singer. So he's dark and mysterious. And so the fact that, like, Pete Wentz, I do think, like, listen, obviously he's hotter than Patrick Stump, but the fact that he is, like, not front and center and is writing all these, like, soulful lyrics.

Caroline (74:27)

Right.

Ashley Hamilton (74:27)

You're just like, it's just hotter no matter what.

Caroline (74:30)

It is just hotter no matter what. You're dead. Right. Yeah. Because, like, you're getting this tunnel to the beautiful boy's soul through the other boy.

Ashley Hamilton (74:39)

Yeah.

Caroline (74:39)

Which I. I guess is also why so many of their. Their songs seem to lean in this place of, like, you know, of. Of there being two boys plus a girl. Right.

Ashley Hamilton (74:49)

Yeah.

Caroline (74:51)

Fun.

Ashley Hamilton (74:53)

Sexy. Sexy. I love it.

Caroline (74:55)

Sexy. You got any more?

Ashley Hamilton (74:58)

Okay, the last thing I want to talk about is the way they name songs, which I actually think has been deeply influential to me personally.

Caroline (75:05)

Go on.

Ashley Hamilton (75:05)

So for those of you who don't know my own personal history, my first podcast was called hold on one second. We're talking about Britney Spears. The next one was called we're in a fight with Claire and Ashley. Like, I do. Claire always makes fun of the way that I name things because I do have such a tendency to, like, attempt to make it a full sentence literally all the time. Like, when we were naming our website, like, everything we've done, I always come up with these names that are lengthy sentences, and she's always like, stop it. Stop doing that. And so if you look like the names of our podcasts have gotten shorter and shorter over time, every single time we launch a new one, the name gets shorter. But, like, my instinct is always to make them as long as humanly possible. And over the years, I really do think it's extremely Fall Out Boy inspired.

Caroline (75:50)

Oh, that's so true. Okay, give me some of the names of Fall Out Boy songs that are particularly long because there are so many good ones over there.

Ashley Hamilton (75:57)

One of them is called I'm like a Lawyer with the way I'm always trying to get you off okay, love.

Caroline (76:03)

Okay, love.

Ashley Hamilton (76:05)

Sending postcards from a plane crash Wish you were here. I've got all this ringing in my ears and none on my fingers, right. I've got a dark alley and a bad idea that says you should shut your mouth.

Caroline (76:18)

Okay, that's my favorite. I've got a dark alley and a bad idea that says that you should shut your mouth.

Ashley Hamilton (76:26)

Sophomore slump or comeback of the year? I mean, some of these are just so like a sentence that they had planned. And then you're like, what? Okay, I guess that's the title of a song, but it's also.

Caroline (76:40)

It's like the confidence of a bunch of teenagers to just be like, no, this is how we're naming our songs, you know, like, yeah, God, when I was going through my phase of, you know, not trying heroin and not listening to Fallout Boy, I remember going into the, like, virgin and, you know, picking up from under the cork tree and looking at all those song titles. Like, yeah, I've got a dark alley and a bad idea. Or like, nobody puts baby in the corner of all gin joints in all the world. Like, like champagne for my real friends. Real pain for my sham friends. A little less 16 Campbell's a little more Touch me, touch me, touch me. Like, it's so cool. It's so cool to do that in a world where like, so many songs are just called, like, dreams or whatever, you know what I mean? Or like generic fucking song titles. And like, for a bunch of teenagers to be like, no, this is what we're calling them is so cool to me.

Ashley Hamilton (77:35)

Head first slide into Cooperstown on a bad bet. It's like, okay, yeah, why not? Why not? So those are all baseball references, which I feel like is a very us. They have a lot of baseball. Like, I think they're big baseball guys because there's a lot of like, baseball adjacent long lyrics.

Caroline (77:55)

Oh, wow. Okay. So that obviously went right over my head.

Ashley Hamilton (77:58)

It is all these things where I'm like, why not? Why not make that I love. I've got all this ringing in my ears and none on my fingers. I feel like. Like it's. We'll never stop having that conversation. We'll never stop be the that song right now. That's huge. I would like a ring. I would like a diamond ring on my wedding finger. I would like a big and shiny diamond.

Caroline (78:21)

But I also just love, like, how referential all of it is as well. And like, I think now that's a lot cooler than it. It was. Like, now I feel like Any sort of pop star will have just, like, a random reference to mean girls in her music video for no reason or whatever. And, like, the idea of being extremely pop culture referential is kind of. It's almost the least that we demand from our pop culture characters now. But Fall Out Boy, the idea that, like, the band itself is named after kind of a niche Simpsons reference, and then, like, you know, referencing 16 candles, like, referencing. It's like references on, like. It's such a long entry on tvtropes.com of just fall Out Boy references from like. Like. Like, even that lyric I quoted earlier on, that he tastes like you, only sweeter is a reference from Closer. You remember that movie with Julia Roberts and Natalie Portman about cheating? That's a line from that movie. Like, why? Why that film?

Ashley Hamilton (79:24)

There's so much and, like, I don't know how much of it I like, overly read into being from the Midwest, but so much of it is so Midwest because, like, Pretty in Pink is a John Hughes movie, and John Hughes was from my same suburb. And so, like, it's all. Not all, but, like, so much of it is, like, in this, like, Midwestern zeitgeist that, like, obviously everyone has seen. But I feel like there's layers on it for the Midwest kids to be like, this is kind of our stuff.

Caroline (79:52)

That's so nice, though, that feeling that this is kind of our stuff. I remember only having that feeling, really, when Once became the Oscar winning movie of that year. And, like, Glenn Hansard is such, like, a character of Ireland that, like, the idea that Americans would enjoy it on any level was just so delightful and perplexing. And now I kind of have that with Ireland and everything now. Like, the way, like, everything Irish is just way more famous than it used to be is perplexing. I feel like I'm getting that fallout point.

Ashley Hamilton (80:21)

Irish stuff is really popping off.

Caroline (80:23)

I know. I keep hoping that the bottom doesn't fall out before my thing comes out.

Ashley Hamilton (80:27)

You know, I think you have time.

Caroline (80:30)

Yeah. There better be at least, like, three years left in this so that when my TV show comes out, it's still, like, interesting to, like, Irish things.

Ashley Hamilton (80:36)

I think it will be. I think it's gonna be huge. In fact, I think people are starving for it.

Caroline (80:41)

I think you. I really need to hear that. Ashley, do you have anything else more to say about Fall Out Boy? Like, I feel like in some ways, like, the excitement I feel about them has been totally communicated, but the depth of feeling I have when I'm walking around in my headphones listening to this band hasn't been. And I don't know how to unite those two things.

Ashley Hamilton (80:58)

Yeah, that's. I feel there is, like, a plunging into my soul of Fall Out Boy. That, like, is hard to explain because it's not like they already said it through their songs.

Caroline (81:09)

Yeah. And, like, but they. They really do make me feel like 14 again. Where you're just, like, taking any excuse to write down the lyrics that you're hearing that and, like. And, like, put them on your MSN bio or, like, put them in a chat room or just, like, put them in an interesting font just so you can see how special and magical the words are when they are written down. And, like, it's that. That feeling is just so. The fact that you can still have it in your 30s is lovely.

Ashley Hamilton (81:37)

I want to start putting, like, an away message with lyrics again.

Caroline (81:41)

Oh, my God. What if we made a decision as a generation that all of our out of offices were now just lyrics? It's like, Ashley Hamilton, sorry, I'm away from my desk until Thursday the 25th or whatever. This ain't a scene. It's a goddamn arms. You know.

Ashley Hamilton (81:58)

Why not?

Caroline (81:59)

Why not?

Ashley Hamilton (82:00)

Why wouldn't we do that?

Caroline (82:02)

We're the generation to do it. We invented it.

Ashley Hamilton (82:05)

Oh, wait, hold on, wait. I pulled up this other one from Homesick at Space Camp. We're in the court where he goes tonight the headphones will deliver Will deliver you the words that I can't say Tonight I'm writing you a million miles away so what if I change my out of office to tonight this bounce back Will deliver you the words that I can't say.

Caroline (82:28)

So good. I mean, I think this could be a thing, actually.

Ashley Hamilton (82:31)

Oh, my God.

Caroline (82:32)

Well, we're here at the precipice of the birth of a new thing, and I couldn't be more excited.

Ashley Hamilton (82:37)

I can't wait.

Caroline (82:38)

Okay, everyone, change your out of Office to Fall Out Boy lyrics and listen to this band. And also, I'm going to share our playlist in the episode notes because everyone deserves to get a hold of this thing.

Ashley Hamilton (82:51)

I couldn't agree more.

Caroline (82:53)

Ashley, do you want to promote your podcast that we love?

Ashley Hamilton (82:55)

Yeah. It's called Good Noticings and I hope you like it.

Caroline (82:58)

I like it.

Ashley Hamilton (82:59)

Yay. Thank you.

Caroline (83:01)

Thanks, Ash.

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