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Friends Thru A Lens: Phoebe's Upsetting Childhood with Ryan Farrell
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- [00:00]
Ryan Farrell
AI had the time of my life. A I never felt this way before.
- [00:10]
Karen Dunhu
From building timelines to assigning the right people, and even spotting risks across dozens of projects, Monday Sidekick knows your business, thinks ahead, and takes action.
- [00:19]
Commercial Announcer
One click on the star and consider it done.
- [00:22]
Ryan Farrell
And I owe it all to you.
- [00:25]
Commercial Announcer
Try Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use on Monday.com.
- [00:38]
Karen Dunhu
Hello and welcome to Friends Through a Lens, the podcast where I talk to my real life friends about the show Friends through a Lens of their choosing. My name is Karen Dunhu and I got hepatitis from the time a pimp spit in my mouth. And joining me is someone who knows that you never running a barge. It's Ryan Farrell. Never ever, Mother.
- [00:59]
Ryan Farrell
Hi.
- [01:00]
Karen Dunhu
Hi. So today we're talking about Friends through the lens of sort of Phoebe. Phoebe's upsetting childhood, Phoebe's upsetting backstory. And I'm really like, I don't know if we'll be doing in this series an episode per friend. I'm really leaving it up to the discretion of whoever comes on. But I'm really glad that we're doing a whole episode on Phoebe because she's a character who I love and I think has gotten the short shrift over the last, you know, over many years of discussion of this. And I'm really glad that you're talking to me better today.
- [01:30]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, thank you. I'm so excited to come on and be able to speak about a character that I've loved for so long and connected with so instantly. So, yeah, I'm stoked.
- [01:41]
Karen Dunhu
Tell me why you picked Phoebe.
- [01:44]
Ryan Farrell
Well, I, like most millennials, I got into friends in the 90s. I remember the first ever episode I saw was the one with Princess Leia Fantasy. And there was a kitchen scene at the top of the episode where Monica was basically in a pretty bad place because her and Richard had just split up and she was taking the whole thing really hard. And Phoebe was commenting on, on how she got a phone call during the night and she heard a loud squeaking sound and she thought it was from a mouse or a possum. And then she realized it was Monica. But then she made a gag about, I wondered how would our mouse or a possum get the money to make the phone call? And at the age of 10, I remember thinking to myself, well, she's not like the other ones. And I instantly identified with her. And every time Phoebe was on screen, I was obsessed. So consequently, throughout the years, Christmases and birthdays, I used to get the VHS tapes of Friends and the episodes that I would always rewind and rewatch. The most typically were the Phoebe centric episodes, because I thought that a lot of Friends is light and silly, a lot of which Phoebe is. But I also think that Phoebe is the beaten heart of the group. And her episodes are very emotional and are often the ones that, you know, get a crying response out here.
- [03:24]
Karen Dunhu
I know. They really do. Like, we've been. It's to set the scene for the listeners. It's a very rainy Sunday in October, and we've just been inside with the fire on, eating a curry and watching a load of Friends and watching, obviously, the very Phoebe centric Friends. And you're right, they do. I mean, almost everything gets a crying response out of me these days. I think that's just like, hormonal shifts with age. But I think there's something. It's so interesting because of this journey that we all have with Friends, everyone of our age of, like, it's this kind of show that raised us. And it's like everything that we come to that we wanted out of adult life often comes from either Sex in the City or a Friend. Like, some combination of, like, some big city life where, like, your friends are your family and you have this really, really tight relationship with them. And, like, these are the kinds of parties you have and this is the kind of jobs you go after. And, like, it's so much of the stencil of life comes from sitcom and comes from Friends and. But it's so funny, like, the way that changes because, you know, you watch Friends as a kid, as you said, like, Phoebe has these totally, like, off the wall jokes that are, like, so childlike and innocent. But then the older you get and, like, you always know when you're young that she, like, oh, her mom killed herself and she lived in a car for a while, and she lived on the streets for a while. And you just take this as part of, like, oh, somebody with a colorful backstory. And then the more you live in the world and experience people who, like, maybe have gone through, like, the thing is, like, yes, Phoebe's backstory is sort of tragic and bizarre, but, like, actually, the longer that you live in the world, the more you actually do meet people whose backstories are tragic and bizarre. And you actually do meet people who deal with that tragedy and that bizarreness by being like, listen, you know, this is something that happened to me, and it's not a big deal to me, and I'm just sort of moving past it and I'm. I'm greeting the world with, like, a sunniness and a vibrancy because I don't let things get me down. Because if I were to live in either my trauma or my sadness, I wouldn't get out of bed. So now I'm just like. I've built a coping mechanism that kind of is my whole Persona, you know, and it's actually. It's not sad that I'm coping because.
- [05:37]
Ryan Farrell
I'm thriving, you know, 100%. And I think what you said, I really relate to that in that there's. There's a couple of aspects of Phoebe that I identified with then and I've come to identify with in a different way as I've gotten older. And part of that is that, you know, like many other listeners, I'm sure had what could be described as a turbulent upbringing, a lot of uncertainty, moving around, unconventional situations. And when I was very young and started watching Friends, I identified with the cookie side of Phoebe. And then, you know, that. That sort of unconventional, troubled past, as I started to get older, move into my teen years, and then as I started to. To move in a young adulthood, that sense of Phoebe being the other in the friendship group, I started to get, you know, identify with in terms of my queerness. And I think that's where Phoebe's always been a bit of a. A lighthouse for me in terms of, like, the central cast. She's always the one where her. Her episodes were the. The ones that I gravitated towards because they felt the most like me. You know, Friends for. For a kid growing up in the 90s was worlds away from anything that we knew, you know, was in it. It was set in New York. You know, it was. It was American. It was, you know, these beautiful people with film star looks. And then you've got Phoebe, who is just, you know, completely unfiltered in her barminess, but in a way that's so earnest. And it didn't feel like I'm. I'm the cookie one, because that's the character that I've created for myself. It's because the. That is how life has shaped her, because she had either one of two ways that she could go. She could be, you know, this being of, you know, spirituality and silliness and childlike wonder, or she could be like her sister Ursula, who is a bit.
- [07:50]
Karen Dunhu
Of a. Ursula's a psycho. I'm pretty sure we brought that up on this miniseries already. But, like, it. The. The older you get again, it's like the things that you found. And maybe this is Also, the kind of millennial sickness. I have this kind of theory, you know, when you do something for long enough and you become your own worst critic in a certain sense. And I've been doing this podcast for seven years, and so I have already built. I've already written every one star review in my own head. Like, there's not. There's no worse review that somebody could leave for me. And sometimes I think when I'm writing myself those one star reviews in my own head, that, like, sometimes I think millennials have this sickness where we love to rewatch Gilmore Girls or Friends or Sex and City or Simpsons or whatever. And then, like, I do on the show all the time, we pile all this meaning on top of it. And I think I'm like, is that Caroline? Is that just you doing your own version of, like, Sunk Cost Fallacy of being like, oh, well, I've spent so much time on it, so therefore I have to convince myself it's meaningful. But, like, so sometimes I'm like, oh, God, am I just, like, forcing biblical meaning onto things that were created in quite a shallow way? But then when you look at stuff where you're like, no. Like, yeah, I know it's funny that Ursula is a psychopath and she, like, is really mean to Phoebe. But, like, I look back on it and I'm like, no, there are real families who are like this. There are real families who struggled with really terrible things. And then, like, one person chooses the darkness and one person chooses the light. Like, I. I've seen those families happen. I've seen those people who, like, get pulled into the negativity, and therefore their outlook is, like, incredibly sarcastic and brittle, which is exactly how Ursula is. I mean, Ursula's a fucking nutcase, and she, like, steals Phoebe's identity to make porn and everything. And it's so funny. But she's also. I mean, the thing I find heartbreaking when you see Phoebe and Ursula interact is that it's always Phoebe coming to Ursula with this new fact she found out about their family. Whether it's that, like, their dad is still alive or their mom isn't. You know, she found her birth mom or whatever. It's always Ursula being like, oh, yeah, I know. I knew that. Who cares? And, like, I know of so many people who have that relationship with their siblings where it's like, your sibling won't let you be the person to tell you anything because, like, oh, yeah, I knew that forever. I knew that for years kind of thing, you know?
- [10:10]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, I Am. I'm fortunate enough to have a great relationship with all my siblings. But my sister, who's a year apart from me, we experienced a lot of the same things growing up together. And our lives took very different trajectories. We're very different personalities and we've very much been shaped by our experience in ways that have made us worlds apart, despite how fond of each other, how much we love each other and have very different ways of dealing with things. And I think that us as the viewer, like we, we're inclined to be on Phoebe's side because Phoebe is this beacon of like childlike wonder and love and light and silliness and then it's, you know, we're getting that sort of one sided view of, you know, Ursula is just working as an adversary. Phoebe, anytime we see her, I mean, despite, you know, having the best porn name of all time, buffet the Vampire Lair, it's played for last. But it's so incredibly fucked up that her sister assumes her twin sister assumes her name as her porn alias. Like whatever happened to your mother's maiden name in the first pet you ever owned? You know? But yeah, I think in terms of my relationship with Phoebe as well, I do think that she's somebody that always wears her heart on her sleeve and that's very much informed and shaped the relationship she has with the other friends. But she's also somebody that despite all of the things that happened to her in childhood into adulthood, she never lives with any sense of regret. She never has any sense of feeling defeated or, you know, as if she's owed anything. She just continues to move on in whatever way she can and create the experiences that she never had to experience before. And that's something again, I relate with in another, an episode that, you know, means a lot to me in, in terms of, you know, the, the Phoebe universe is the episode where she, where Ross teaches her to ride a bike because she, she'd never had a bike before. And she, she plays it in a very sweet way where she had the box that the bike came in and her stepfather used to just drag her around the garden and that comes off as a happy memory. And rather than let that hold her back and be a thing of great trauma, she's just like, this is what it is and now I'm going to learn to ride a bike. And she has the bike she wanted as a child with the tassels and the little basket. And I just think she's so lovely and so inspirational in a way where when I watch Friends. I seldom find myself, watch a sitcom and think, God, you know, be more Jerry Seinfeld.
- [13:17]
Karen Dunhu
Don't be more Jerry Seinfeld.
- [13:20]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely not. But I absolutely watch Friends and think, man, be more Phoebe. Buffy.
- [13:27]
Karen Dunhu
I know. I think that's so much now. So much. And I think I've said this elsewhere in the series, but, like, so much now. Like, it's interesting. When I first watched the show, I so gravitated towards what I thought of as being the more adult and cosmopolitan characters. Like, which was Rachel and Chandler. Like, I loved Rachel for how, like, stylish and funny and sexy she was. And I love Chandler for how, like, quick and sharp he was. And now much more. As I get older I am, I sort of. I'm less focused on those subplots and more focused on the Joey and Phoebe subplots because they're just sort of, like, moving through the world in, like, very unconventional way that's, like, just very joyful. And, like, I. I actually want to see. I want to ape that behavior much more than I want to ape, like, Chandler's behavior. I know that's a silly thing to say, but, like, something I've been thinking a lot while I've been rewatching all these episodes is that, like, I remember being a kid and being like, oh, my God, if I could just have a friend or a boyfriend, like Chandler, that would be the dream. And now I watch it and, like, oh, of course. This is why they're all annoyed by you. You're annoying. Like, just answer a question in a normal way. Stop being, like, sarcastic and weird. Like, this is a terrible, terrible energy to be around.
- [14:37]
Ryan Farrell
Oh, absolutely.
- [14:38]
Karen Dunhu
It plays well as a sitcom, but it's an awful energy to be around.
- [14:41]
Ryan Farrell
If. If Friends was created in 2025, Chandler's Bioline would be that he's an energy vampire.
- [14:49]
Karen Dunhu
Oh, my God, he's such an energy vampire.
- [14:52]
Ryan Farrell
Because you're trying to have a conversation with the guy and he's just giving you a quip and you're like, my God, just answer the fucking question. What time is the table booked for? But, yeah, what you were saying about the relationship between Phoebe and Joey, specifically, that's a really interesting one. I'd love to know where the creators what the secret sauce was. I'm kind of imagining the equivalent of a scientist in a lab creating a formula. How did that come about? Where that was the relationship that kind of rose to the top in terms of the strongest friendships? Because we're always told that Joey and Chandler are best friends. Monica and Rachel are best friends. But the two friends that you see actually most committed to each other on an emotional level, but also on a time spent level. Absolutely. And there's so much nuance in their relationship. They have in jokes. You know, they have conversations away from the group, they have plans. You know.
- [16:01]
Karen Dunhu
That's one of my favorite bits ever. It's like me and Joey have dinner and they're like, oh, really? Yeah. Once a month we have dinner to discuss the rest of you. Which, again, is just so how friends are.
- [16:11]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely. And I'd love to know how that came about. Was it a case of there was an actual chemistry between Lisa Kudrow and Matt LeBlanc? Or was it that they looked at the two characters and said, these are two people that would work well together? Or was it that they just graduated, gradually gravitated towards each other and the creator said, this seems right. We're gonna keep going with this. Whatever the method was that got us to that point, I'm so grateful for it because it really is such a wholesome relationship. And I mean, obviously, Rach or not Rachel, Phoebe, her story is such that she grew up very much without family. Yeah.
- [16:54]
Karen Dunhu
Why don't you take us from the start with the. With Phoebe and give me, like, if you dare, can you give me an entire history of Phoebe Buffay's life?
- [17:04]
Ryan Farrell
I'm gonna try.
- [17:05]
Karen Dunhu
Okay.
- [17:06]
Ryan Farrell
That's why you brought me here. So Phoebe was born, I want to say upstate to hippie parents. To Lily and Frank Buffet who, as.
- [17:16]
Karen Dunhu
We are to understand, are teen parents. They were, like, right out of high school.
- [17:20]
Ryan Farrell
Yes, they were, like, high school sweethearts. And at some point along the way, Frank left one day and never came back and left Lily with her twins, Phoebe and Ursula. Lily was suffering from pretty extreme depression and then came to, as we now know, she put her head in the oven.
- [17:44]
Karen Dunhu
Is that literally how she healed herself?
- [17:45]
Ryan Farrell
Yes. Yeah, she put her head in the oven. Which, you know, they did it before the virgin suicides.
- [17:52]
Karen Dunhu
But do you think that was specifically to try and invoke, like, a Sylvia Plath thing?
- [17:56]
Ryan Farrell
I don't know. I mean, does friends run that deep?
- [18:01]
Karen Dunhu
I mean, it's a pretty specific thing to invoke, right?
- [18:05]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. I mean, I think the imagery of it in the 90s, they probably just thought, this is a funny way to off this woman.
- [18:14]
Karen Dunhu
Right. Like, sorry, I'll let you continue in a second. But, like, it's really interesting to choose that. And, like, maybe it's because, I mean, we always talk about the 90s as being this kind of time where humor was a little bit crueler and more like, it was broader and sharper in terms of, like, it really didn't mind hurting people the way people kind of take a second sort of pause when they do that now. But, like, I think invoking a famous female suicide like that is. Was probably quite intentional. And I think probably back then, we were treating Sylvia Platt's suicide like it was something kind of funny. It was a bit like, you know, how people used to say, like, oh, Marilyn Monroe died in the nude or whatever. You know, it's like people just sort of took that kind of thing very lightly back then in a way that we wouldn't know for sure.
- [18:55]
Ryan Farrell
I mean, how this first came about was there was a Thanksgiving episode where, for one reason or another, all six of the friends were. Well, five of the six of the friends weren't able to celebrate Thanksgiving as they'd initially planned. So Rachel was supposed to go on a skiing trip to Vail and Joey ended up becoming the VD guy so his family didn't want to see him. So everybody had a reason for hating Thanksgiving because they couldn't celebrate or because something had happened to them previously. Because. And the gag with Phoebe was that her mom died around Thanksgiving and she'd put her head in the oven. But subsequently, she was very young, ended up on the streets living out of a car and was kind of shaped by the streets, became quite scrappy. She befriended people in the streets. And all we know of that time is what's kind of drip fed to us throughout the seasons. And it's usually backed by some kind of gag that shaped her streets experience. Whether it was the time that she mugged Rob or, you know, she learned French behind a dumpster. Bonjour. And then when we meet her in season one, she's kind of fully formed.
- [20:15]
Karen Dunhu
She's ditzy, she's new age, she's cleansing people's auras.
- [20:20]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely. She's all in past lives, and she's a massage therapist and she's a former roommate of Monica's, and that's how we come to know her. But at this point, she's fully formed in her ideals and her way of being. But throughout the series, we continue to have the pieces of her childhood and her story stitched together. And that comes in the form of her meeting additional family members, whether it's her brother Frank Jr or.
- [20:51]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah, let's talk about, like, specifically about Frank Jr for a while because I love Giovanni riviza as Frank Jr, he's great in that.
- [20:59]
Ryan Farrell
Did you know he was in another episode previously?
- [21:03]
Karen Dunhu
Yes. He like, dropped a condom in her guitar case or something. Right?
- [21:07]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah.
- [21:08]
Karen Dunhu
Which in my head canon, I'm like, that's Frank. It's not like.
- [21:11]
Ryan Farrell
I like thank that too. Yeah, yeah. So.
- [21:15]
Karen Dunhu
So remind me how exactly Frank is related to her? Is it like her.
- [21:20]
Ryan Farrell
Well, he's Frank Jr. So he's her father's son. So what happens is one Christmas, Ross, somebody gets a frame for somebody for Christmas. I think that Ross gets a frame for his mother and Phoebe notices the guy on the frame and thinks that it's her father. And this is another one of the fucked up aspects of Phoebe's childhood. She spends all of her upbringing thinking that her father is this one particular guy. But it turns out that he's actually.
- [21:49]
Karen Dunhu
Basically a stock model.
- [21:50]
Ryan Farrell
A stock model that's largely. His body of work is in the frames of pictures.
- [21:59]
Karen Dunhu
Another graduation, Another graduation. Another graduation. That's so like an audio thing in my head. That's like another graduation, another graduation.
- [22:08]
Ryan Farrell
So she speaks to her grandmother and you know, the only appearance that we see from her grandmother and her grandmother tells her that her. Her father lives upstate. He's a pharmacist. So Phoebe and Chandler and Joey head upstate to. To meet Frank Jr. And Phoebe essentially bottles it at the time, but in a really nice conversation with Joey and Chandler. They're very supportive, very kind.
- [22:37]
Karen Dunhu
It's so. It's so lovely because it's like the boys are supposed to be going there. She's taking them Christmas shopping, which is weird because, like, why would you get in a car to do that? I guess maybe the plan was to go to like an outlet mall somewhere on the way upstate or on the way back or something. And then it's like, it's too late for that. And they. They're in the back of this car in the freezing cold and they just fall asleep. And like, it's just so. Again, I know it's a funny, silly show, but there's something really lovely about like, the two boys, like, putting their hands through the kind of the partition, the little hole where you're supposed to pay someone. And like, just like holding their friend's hand and being like, it's okay, like. And they literally say to her, like, today was a big step for you.
- [23:16]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, you made it to the driveway. You. You might make it to the front door the next day. And it's very sweet. So that's where we're introduced to Frank Buffet as being a Living presence still. And towards the end of the season, Phoebe decides to head back and meet him and finds out that he has another family. And he's essentially done the exact same to them, but in his place is her brother, Frank Jr. And, you know, he's equally as kooky as her, but in a completely different way.
- [23:55]
Karen Dunhu
He's so well observed, though. Like, I was talking to somebody the other day and was like. She was like, every time I think about me and my brother's relationship, I feel better about it because of Giovanni Ribizzi. She's just like, I just sit opposite him while he talks to me about melting stuff.
- [24:11]
Ryan Farrell
I honestly don't know how you would characterize him, because he's very normal in the most insane way.
- [24:18]
Karen Dunhu
It's so true. He's such a normal, like, into skateboarding and just sort of like, into.
- [24:24]
Ryan Farrell
Not.
- [24:24]
Karen Dunhu
Not even like, into skateboarding, into kind of nothing. Just sort of like little worm living on a fucking beach, just slugging out, you know, he's like. He's like, so a nothing guy, but also every guy you ever went to school with.
- [24:39]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely. And his. His emotional skill scale is quite bizarre in that he's either very muted or extremely heightened in a way that's quite erratic.
- [24:50]
Karen Dunhu
Did you have any obesity? Why do I know his name as well as I do? Like, did he do. What was the other big things he was in?
- [24:56]
Ryan Farrell
I can't remember. I know that he was.
- [24:58]
Karen Dunhu
He's such a specific presence.
- [25:00]
Ryan Farrell
I remember him from gone in 60 seconds, but that was because I problematically stand Angelina Jolie's white girl dreads in 2001. So let's not talk about that.
- [25:13]
Karen Dunhu
You know what? We've got bigger fish to fry right now.
- [25:15]
Ryan Farrell
Bigger fish to fry.
- [25:16]
Karen Dunhu
I think you can just find her dreads aesthetically pleasing, and you can still go to heaven.
- [25:20]
Ryan Farrell
Maybe.
- [25:20]
Karen Dunhu
I don't know.
- [25:20]
Ryan Farrell
It was that fucking freestyler video, man. That's what did it for me. But so Frank Jr. She meets him, he's completely elated to have a sister, and they decide to keep in contact, and they start to build a really, really nice relationship. And then at some point, we're introduced to Alice, who is his former teacher and played amazingly by Deborah Jo Rupp.
- [25:46]
Karen Dunhu
Who is the mother from that 70s show.
- [25:49]
Ryan Farrell
Yes, Kitty.
- [25:50]
Karen Dunhu
Kitty.
- [25:51]
Ryan Farrell
And they just sort of mack on each other and make out all the time. But again, they have this really beautiful relationship. And you can see that with Frank, he's getting something from Alice that he never got from his home life as well. And it's a really rich, deep love. So.
- [26:06]
Karen Dunhu
And it's interesting in that context as well. It's. It is well observed that, like, yeah, he's. He's with this kind of mother figure and he's trying to find this kind of replacement family in his romantic life. And like, it. It does, like, scan really bizarrely. And, like, Phoebe is immediately worried about it. But also she has done the same thing with her friends that, like, Joey is this kind of like, older brother, almost father figure to her sometimes, and that's how she sort of sees him. And like. Yeah, it is just sort of how people build their lives, you know?
- [26:37]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. I. I feel like Phoebe is to Frank what Joey is to Phoebe, you know.
- [26:44]
Karen Dunhu
Really nice.
- [26:45]
Ryan Farrell
Well, the thing is, Joey has seven sisters, so she. She sought him out because she knew that he knows how to be a brother.
- [26:55]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah.
- [26:56]
Ryan Farrell
And that's what she needed. And she met Frank and she knew straight away he needed a big sister. And that's why, you know, committing the ultimate act of love. She became a surrogate for their kids. And God, I really struggle with those episodes, particularly the one where she gives birth, just because they are so moving. And a lot of it is played for laughs again, in terms of I'm having my brother's babies.
- [27:19]
Karen Dunhu
I mean, the entire show is played for laughs. That is the function of the show is to play for.
- [27:23]
Ryan Farrell
I need to stop saying played for laughs.
- [27:26]
Karen Dunhu
I think it's a given. It's being played for laughs. And we're just the ones being like, like weird and, like, emotional and moody about it.
- [27:36]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, it's not that deep, Ryan, but.
- [27:39]
Karen Dunhu
It is that deep. Riot. That's why we're here.
- [27:43]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, I mean, that, that. That's where, you know, Phoebe really gets to me because, you know, she will be so out there. There will be a lot of buffoonery and ridiculousness. But then we'll come a scene like her saying goodbye to the triplets in the hospital. And the way that Lisa could wrote not just in Friends, but as Valerie cherished in the Comeback or in Romy and Michelle, the way that she's able to create cartoonish characters and then put so much humanity behind them.
- [28:17]
Karen Dunhu
Oh, just so worried.
- [28:18]
Ryan Farrell
It's unbelievable. Yeah.
- [28:23]
Karen Dunhu
I love that woman. Oh, my God. When season three of the Comeback comes around. Oh, my God. But no, you're so right. Like, with, like, Valerie Church, there's the thing about. Again, to go back to the phrase played for laughs. But, like, I remember when the Comeback came out. So the Comeback, if people don't know, is her other show. And she plays a kind of failing actress on a reality TV program. And there's been two seasons over, you know, 15 years, and there's going to be a third soon, and we love it. And Valerie Cherish is that character. And Valerie Cherish is, like, vain and insipid and, like, deluded and has a sort of a totally outsized idea of her own talent and her own fame and, like, for in many ways, should be kind of repulsive, anti hero because of how hungry she is for validation and, like, how that hungriness is very like, oh, God, get her away. And everybody around Valerie is apart from her. Closest and best are like, oh, get this lady away. She's kind of sickening, but there's also this, like, unbelievable humanity to her. Like, I cry more at that show than I cry at any other show. Just because you can just see this kind of raw, hurt child underneath this kind of aging starlet who just wants to have her best days back again.
- [29:38]
Ryan Farrell
And it's, like.
- [29:38]
Karen Dunhu
It's really affecting.
- [29:40]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely. I'll never forget when we lived together, when I first moved to London, and season two of the Comeback came out, and we just found ourselves one night in my bed streaming it when it just became available. And the two of us inconsolable in bed when Valerie rushes to Mickey's bedside during the Emmys. Red, you came.
- [30:02]
Karen Dunhu
Oh, my God. Guys, you have to watch the Comeback. Not however many of you a proportion of sentimental garbage listeners have seen. The Comeback is not enough. There needs to be more of you. All of you have to watch the Comeback.
- [30:14]
Ryan Farrell
I mean, I don't think it's a hot take anymore, but I don't look at Lisa Kudrow and think immediately, Phoebe Buffet, because she was so impactful as Valerie Cherish. And it's so layered as a performance. Go watch the Comeback. That's not why we're here.
- [30:31]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah, exactly. But we are here to talk about, like, this tremendous gift that Lisa Kudrow has, and that, for some reason, is, like, never been this gift that's been tapped into by, like, movie directors. Do you mean, like, she was in a lot of movies in the 90s, but she's not seen as a. Like, I think that sort of thing that she's able to do, as you say, of creating these, like, kooky characters who have this deep well of pain inside of them that they're trying really hard to, like, manage is, like, such a gift that, like, no other actress has in the same way. And, like, I just wish that there was like a big, I don't know, a big August Osage county moment for Lisa Kudrow, you know, for sure.
- [31:11]
Ryan Farrell
I mean, I think she's a really strong, you know, ensemble actor. She works really well in an ensemble cast as a character actor. Even her performance in something like Easy A, she's the straight man. But a lot of the emotional depth in that movie comes from her performance as an adulterous wife to Thomas Hayden Church. And I guess in such a sort of heteronormative show like Friends, everybody is the straight man, at least for the few, the first few seasons, until their characters start to become more sort of magnified. And Phoebe is the cream that rises to the crop in terms of that zany character that is able, she's able, Lisa Kudrow is able to completely color outside the lines. And I've heard her speak in interviews about the, how she evolved the character Phoebe and she said that it was actually really easy to play with her and build on her because she's so completely unlike her as a person. But she just knew that whatever she did with Phoebe, she knew that Phoebe deserved good things. So she was always a complete champion for the character. And it makes it really hard to imagine anybody else play her. I mean, when you think about, in terms of people that were in the process for casting for Phoebe, you've got the likes of famously Ellen DeGeneres or.
- [32:57]
Karen Dunhu
Ellen DeGeneres was supposed to be Phoebe.
- [32:58]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, she was shortlisted along with Jane lynch and Kathy Griffin. All extremely talented people. I mean, whatever you, you think of Ellen now, undoubtedly very talented and they would have all brought something, you know, particular to that role. But I just can't imagine any of them and any of their creative brilliance being able to hold a torch to what Lisa Kudrow has done with Phoebe. I mean, I can't imagine anybody could make me love her more than Lisa Kudrow has.
- [33:36]
Karen Dunhu
Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right now Mint Mobile is offering you the gift of 50% off unlimited. To be clear, that's half price, not half the service. Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price. So that means a half day. Yeah, give it a try. @mintmobile.com upfront payment of $45 for three.
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Ryan Farrell
It's always vanishing.
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Karen Dunhu
The commute, the errands, the work functions, the Meetings. Selling your car. Unless you sell your car with Carvana. Get a real offer in minutes. Get it picked up from your door. Get paid on the spot so fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one. We just respect you and your time. Oh, you're still here. Move along now. Enjoy your day. Sell your car today.
- [34:32]
Ryan Farrell
Carvana.
- [34:34]
Karen Dunhu
Pick up. Fees may apply.
- [34:40]
Ryan Farrell
So, I mean, should we talk about the relationship that Phoebe has to the other friends? Because obviously she started living with Monica and Monica is a control freak. That's kind of the reason why Phoebe moved out.
- [34:55]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah.
- [34:56]
Ryan Farrell
And the two of them are essentially oil and water in terms of their personality types. But there's something about the two of them that really works. And again, the relationship of the three girls was so close off screen that it built this bond between them that started to really translate on screen. I wonder how much that informed the relationships between the characters and made the relationship between, say, Phoebe and Monica or Phoebe and Rachel closer.
- [35:32]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah, it's interesting because, like, you. There's never really a getting to know you portion, is there? Right. Because, like, when you think about the Friends, episode one is about Rachel leaving her wedding and coming to just crash with Monica. And then she becomes part of this gang.
- [35:48]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah.
- [35:48]
Karen Dunhu
Like, she already knows Ross. She already knows Monica. She doesn't know Joey and she doesn't know Phoebe. She does know Chandler. And, like, there's a kind of a weird, flirty moment with her and Joy where she's like, oh, hello, kind of thing, you know, very.
- [36:02]
Ryan Farrell
They did do that one flashback episode and all that we got from that was that she shifted Ross when he found out that Carol was a lesbian and then he banged his head off of a lamp and they kind of got stunted and, you know, reality.
- [36:17]
Karen Dunhu
Do you regard those flashback episodes as being canon, though?
- [36:21]
Ryan Farrell
I don't know. I just kind of take them at face value. But the. The only thing about the. The flashback episodes that they do is that's the only one that's actually ever featured Phoebe because all of the other flashbacks go back to the 80s where it's everybody but Phoebe and Joey.
- [36:40]
Karen Dunhu
Very interesting.
- [36:41]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, so that's. That's the only. That's the only experience we get of, like, you know, Monica and Phoebe as housemates, for example. And. And that's where you get to see that, you know, there's. There's something that holds the two of them together. You know, pre Rachel, pre. Another girl being in the group. Yeah, there's obviously like this. This bond between them. And I think that is that there's a real sort of big sister, little sister relationship between Monica and Phoebe, which Monica kind of has with Rachel as well.
- [37:13]
Karen Dunhu
It's interesting, isn't it? Because obviously in any big group of friends, there are, like, sub dynamics within that. And that's, you know, true. True of real friends. True in the show Friends. But, like, there's this. I always find the girl centric episodes where there's, like, something happening between the three of them or like, you know, Rachel and Monica arguing over who gets to go out with Jean Claude Van Damme or whatever. Or like, there's like some kind of antics or hijinks or whatever with the girls. It's always like, Phoebe is always the like, okay, well, I'll say what happens next. And like, one scene I love is when, like, it's Magic's wedding and she. First of all, Phoebe sort of like, takes the hit for Rachel because Rachel isn't ready to, like, say that she's pregnant yet. Oh, so nice. And then she keeps the pregnancy test result from Rachel and she says, you know, you're not pregnant. And then Rachel starts crying and she goes, no, I just wanted you to know how you feel about it. You are pregnant. And it's like. It's just so lovely. And it's just like. It's interesting because the actress Liza Kudrow is a couple of years older than Courteney Cox and Jennifer Aniston. But also the character is older because she's experienced more than the other two of them have. And so she's like, often, even though she's the kooky character, she's rarely the character who's embroiled in, like, drama or jealousies or pettiness. She's just like, okay, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna do this and then we're gonna do this kind of thing.
- [38:34]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, well, she does often act as well refereeing those situations as well or kind of the go between. She did it in the. For example, when Monica and Rachel were fighting over Jean Claude Van Damme and pouring fucking pasta sauce in each other's bags.
- [38:52]
Karen Dunhu
And so good. I can see that fucking pasta sauce tipping moments clearly.
- [38:58]
Ryan Farrell
Repping each other's sweaters.
- [38:59]
Karen Dunhu
Oh, my God, that's so just. That image is just in there for me. I could probably not remember images for my own wedding, but I can remember that pasta sauce going into the bag.
- [39:10]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, absolutely. And then there was the episode, of course, where Phoebe is the catalyst for exposing Monica and Chandler's relationship. Oh, yeah, where she has the dance with Chandler where she's popping buttons.
- [39:27]
Karen Dunhu
Oh my God. That's another outfit that I can see so clearly. Her kind of midnight blue top with.
- [39:32]
Ryan Farrell
The buttons, like a velvety number. But yeah, so she has this really good way of leading the charge with her friends, but also, you know, putting them in time out when she needs to as well. And I think that there's no one that she does that more with than Ross.
- [39:49]
Karen Dunhu
So good.
- [39:50]
Ryan Farrell
Ross is very type A. You know, Phoebe is very, very type.
- [39:56]
Karen Dunhu
B. I don't really know what type B means, to be honest. But Ross is type A and Phoebe's whatever else. Phoebe's no type of thing. It's interesting actually. You obviously haven't heard this episode because it's not out yet. But we just did an episode with Imogen West Knight. Her perspective as a Ross apologist. You're a Ross Denier.
- [40:15]
Ryan Farrell
I'm not a Ross Denier. I just think that he fucking sucks way more than he doesn't.
- [40:24]
Karen Dunhu
But so I. So I sort of put our sort of charges against Ross as a people to her. And one of the charges I had was that he is frequently mean to Phoebe and she defended him. And I would like you to fight for Phoebe's side.
- [40:40]
Ryan Farrell
Well, I think that Ross is well intentioned at times. I mean, he was the one who bought her a bike and he wanted to, you know, see her enjoy the bike. But Ross, Phoebe colors outside the lines. Ross colors very much inside them. And I think that Phoebe is somebody who's so authentic, authentically herself in every way, shape and form. And I think that for her, she just can't be on a level with somebody or interact with somebody so closely if they're not being themselves. And I think that with Ross, she feels that. I mean, there was that example of the episode. It's the episode where Mr. Heckles dies and Phoebe is basically questioning the. The idea of evolution. And Ross is completely perplexed, and rightly.
- [41:35]
Karen Dunhu
So, because he's a paleontologist.
- [41:37]
Ryan Farrell
You do know that industries, careers, my career is built around this idea. And then Phoebe basically, in a record scratch moment takes him to task and says, are you really so close minded that you can't believe that there's the slightest chance that an idea outside of your belief system could possibly exist? And Ross is like, yeah, I guess, maybe so. And she's like, oh my God, I can't believe you folded. She says, you know, at least before I disagreed with you, but I respected you. And Ross is gagged.
- [42:20]
Karen Dunhu
Mama how are you gonna go to work on Monday?
- [42:23]
Ryan Farrell
How are you gonna face your friends? How are you gonna face your sister?
- [42:25]
Karen Dunhu
Self.
- [42:28]
Ryan Farrell
Bodied? Roz was dog walked and bodied. So, yeah, I love that. I love when she's a true agent of chaos.
- [42:37]
Karen Dunhu
But it's so funny. Back to the biography and various family members of Phoebe because ironically, it's like even though she is this creature who's on the wind and sort of without family ties and orphaned and all that, we actually do get a lot of various kooky Phoebe family members. We get brother, as we said, we haven't spoken about her birth mother yet, Phoebe Abbott. But we also get her grandmother, who is a cab driver, which I love.
- [43:05]
Ryan Farrell
And like you, for some reason, you.
- [43:07]
Karen Dunhu
Pointed out when we were watching it earlier on, because we watched the episode where she tells her. She tells Phoebe that her dad is not a stock model. He's a man who lives upstate. And you were like, that's the only time we ever see Phoebe's grandmother. Weirdly in my head, I'm like, oh, no, surely we see her all the time. Because she's such a ingrained idea in my head that Phoebe's got this grandmother who's a cab driver. And then in my head I'm like, phoebe's grandmother is like Fran Leibovitz. Because Fran Leibovitz is a cab driver as well.
- [43:36]
Ryan Farrell
Well, she. Yeah, I mean, she's often spoke of.
- [43:39]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah, but like, where did she come from? Like, is she, Is she Lily's mother? She is Lily's.
- [43:46]
Ryan Farrell
She's Lily's mother. But she's often spoke of in the same way that the Ugly Naked Guys often spoke of and never seen. But in this one occasion. And usually when they speak about Phoebe's grandmother, there's some kind of quip attached to it. You know, Phoebe didn't sleep because her grandmother was up all night with her new boyfriend. And the both of them are hard of hearing and were just both reassuring each other a lot. But the one time that we do see her, even though she's this source of stability for Phoebe, that in itself is quite up because she's lying to Phoebe. You know, she's. She's saying that she's perpetuating the lie about Phoebe's dad being the frame guy because her mother wanted her to. To. To keep up the line after she died, it was harder to lie. You know, not impossible, but still hard. And it's like, sure, yeah, we get that. But then two seconds later, Phoebe leaves the flat and says, bye, Grandpa, to A frame of Albert Einstein. So the grandmother's a liar as well, in the cab telling lies.
- [44:58]
Karen Dunhu
Also, I know this is, like, not a good point to bring up, but, like, where was the grandmother when she was on the streets? At what point did the grandmother intervene?
- [45:05]
Ryan Farrell
I did think of that, too. So I don't know if she was, you know.
- [45:09]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah.
- [45:10]
Ryan Farrell
Driving cabs on the west coast or something. I don't know. Call it a plot hole, but I.
- [45:16]
Karen Dunhu
Would love to see that. I'm sure there's a really good explanation, because I actually do believe, even though that so much of Phoebe's backstory does feel like they randomly just like, oh, and then I lived on the streets and blah. It feels for the first couple of seasons that they're just kind of drawing traumatic events out of a hat. I do really believe that as the series went on as, like, the actors became bonded to the characters and as the cast became bonded to the crew, that, like, they all felt very careful about what it was they were creating. Because as we. As the series moves on, there's, like, so many moments of true sincerity of, like, Phoebe finding happiness and Phoebe sort of referring to the fact that, like, she didn't have the regular things that other people had and how she tries to get them. And, like, you can tell the way Lisa Kudrow plays it, the way it's framed, the way it's shot, the way the camera will stay on her a beat longer, that they're like, we know this is a funny show and we'll get back to the funnies in just one second, but we really care about this character, and we want you to care about her, too.
- [46:13]
Ryan Farrell
Well, over the 10 years, I find, I think that Phoebe is the only character that is seen to be on a constant journey of healing. You know, there's this journey that Rachel goes through where she goes from being, you know, the Long island princess to, you know, independent career woman. She transitions into that role by third season, but Phoebe is still, you know, plugging the holes in her heart throughout all 10 seasons, always looking for family.
- [46:45]
Karen Dunhu
And always looking to heal relationships with family.
- [46:47]
Ryan Farrell
You know, she found her chosen family and the five friends, but she knows that there's family out there. She knows that there's more that she wants, whether that's her relationship with David or Mike. And I'm sure we'll talk about her relationships, but with men. But in terms of, you know, understanding what she was missing in life growing up, you can actively see her through the entire lifespan of the series looking to plug Those gaps. And I think that's a really sort of beautiful branch in the friends tree. And I guess that's part of why I wanted to speak about Phoebe today because I just think it's so interesting that we're constantly following her journey in a way that, you know, we only see Joey's parents once in the entire series. Whenever we see Rachel's family, it's always, you know, the same kind of beat that we're hitting in terms of her parents are just bonkers. The Gellers are secondary characters.
- [47:51]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah, they very much are.
- [47:52]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. Live, you know, as frequently in the universe as Gunther does, you know. But with Phoebe, you know, we're always adding to that, whether it is Frank Jr. Or as Phoebe Abbott.
- [48:11]
Karen Dunhu
You're right. There's, like, the family that we do see is very well drawn, but it's very stable. It's like, this is what the Gellers are always like. This is what Rachel's parents are always like. But you're right, the. With Phoebe, it is a continuing story that we're building on all the time that, like, it will. Yeah, it never gets quite finished.
- [48:31]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. I think what's also very nice as well is that the first member of Phoebe's family that we're introduced to is Ursula. And she does, you know, work as that sort of antagonist to Phoebe, despite Phoebe's pushing back against that throughout the series. But every single person that we meet that comes into her life after that is happy to see Phoebe and wants her to be part of their world. And that's where, you know, Frank and Phoebe Abbott. Everybody wants to make a space for Phoebe in their life and have her make a space in theirs. And I think that's really nice as well. Well, we didn't get to see, you know, Terry Garr play Phoebe Abbott after a couple of episodes. You can still assume that they still spend time with each other because the note that we left that relationship on was a good one, where they wanted to move forward, you know, I don't think so. Oh, she gave away her puppy, didn't she, Phoebe?
- [49:24]
Karen Dunhu
That was my puppy.
- [49:27]
Ryan Farrell
I think she understood. I mean, you're not gonna lose a daughter over that, are you? It was a cute puppy, but that was my puppy.
- [49:35]
Karen Dunhu
So just imagine if you were in that situation.
- [49:38]
Ryan Farrell
She loved giving things to Frank Jr. Dogs, her womb.
- [49:43]
Karen Dunhu
That's the such a lovely point that, like, yeah, Ursula rejects her again and again, but every new person she meets is like, they do want to make a space for her. It is lovely.
- [49:53]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah.
- [49:53]
Karen Dunhu
Let's Talk about Phoebe and men.
- [49:55]
Ryan Farrell
Then who do we have? I mean, the, the first. The first.
- [49:58]
Karen Dunhu
She's kind of the Samantha of the show. Right. Like in, in that, like. I think that's another, like, parallel that you get with Joey and Phoebe a lot is that they both sleep around a lot. And I think that's allow. That is to do with the fact that we know that Rachel and Ross are endgame and we know that Chandler and Monica are endgame. And we spend a lot of the series kind of, you know, passing that ball around. And so the, the single New Yorkers are sort of perpetually Joey and Phoebe. So we see them with kind of temporary boyfriends and girlfriends a lot.
- [50:27]
Ryan Farrell
And Phoebe and Joey are almost the outsiders of the group because again, they. They weren't in the Long island scenes in the 80s. They didn't, you know, grow up with each other. They came into the group, you know, through living arrangements in their 20s. And you know that Phoebe was actually supposed to be a secondary character herself and Chandler when they first brought the show about. And it was supposed to be centered around Monica, Ross, Rachel and Joey.
- [50:58]
Karen Dunhu
Joey was supposed to be a central character because he was the sexy one.
- [51:02]
Ryan Farrell
Yes. And the main romance that they were building towards was going to be Monica and Joey, which is why they referred to it in the flashback episode.
- [51:10]
Karen Dunhu
That's crazy.
- [51:11]
Ryan Farrell
So, yeah. Where Joey comes to view the gaffe and Monica's giving them the how ya. Yeah, so, yeah, interesting. Imagine. Imagine. So, yeah, Phoebe does. She's a gal about town. And it's never played in a Samantha like way. It's just here's somebody else that Phoebe's dating.
- [51:31]
Karen Dunhu
But it's almost like the Facts of Samantha but played to a different tune or something because it's like she's very much like, oh, yes, well, I'm very sexual. And like, yeah, like I love. She's very kind of just shamelessly into her body and knows that she's sexy kind of thing in a similar way to what Kim Style is doing, just with a different instrument.
- [51:50]
Ryan Farrell
You know, it's like the Facts of Samantha but with the whimsy of a Charlotte.
- [51:54]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah.
- [51:55]
Ryan Farrell
And the first guy that I remember her being with was Roger, who was the shrink.
- [52:02]
Karen Dunhu
And oh my God, I hate that guy. These big cups that might as well have nibbles on them. I always think about that. Every time I have a big cup, I think, might as well have a nipple on it.
- [52:13]
Ryan Farrell
On a side note, that's the guy that directed the David Beckham documentary. And that always blows My mind.
- [52:19]
Karen Dunhu
Oh, my God. The guy who's also in succession.
- [52:21]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. Fisher Stevens.
- [52:22]
Karen Dunhu
Fisher Stevens. That's. That's him.
- [52:24]
Ryan Farrell
Really wild.
- [52:25]
Karen Dunhu
What a life he's had.
- [52:26]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely crazy. Get you a guy that can do both. But the first significant love we meet of Phoebe's is David, the scientist played by Han Gazaria. Yeah, they fall very hard, very fast and very deep for what is one episode.
- [52:45]
Karen Dunhu
What?
- [52:46]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah.
- [52:47]
Karen Dunhu
And he's referred to throughout the series as well.
- [52:49]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. David comes into the show a couple of times over the years. Years. But for the most part, he's on some kind of research in Minsk work.
- [52:59]
Karen Dunhu
The only reason I know about Minsk is because of Dave.
- [53:02]
Ryan Farrell
The only reason Anybody born between 1980 and 1995 knows about Minsk is because of friends.
- [53:11]
Karen Dunhu
Right. But it's also. It's such a beautiful. Meet cute. Because, like, she's playing the guitar and he's arguing with his friend and talking, and she's like, hello, do you want to share? Or whatever he's saying. And he says, like, like, I was just arguing about whether you're the most beautiful girl in the world or not. Because he thinks it's Daryl Hannah in Splash, but I think it's you.
- [53:32]
Ryan Farrell
I mean, it's very sweet.
- [53:34]
Karen Dunhu
It's so beautiful. Imagine if that was how you met your boyfriend. Of course, she never got over him.
- [53:40]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely. But he did off.
- [53:42]
Karen Dunhu
He did off.
- [53:43]
Ryan Farrell
And he rarely visited. And I know that they tried to plug it with. With, you know, many various reasons, but, man, if you love her, like, come back and visit. You're a scientist, you're making money, get on a plane, go to New York.
- [53:58]
Karen Dunhu
Right. And then he does come back when she's about to get serious with Mike right towards the end. But, like, for us to remember the, like, significance of David by that, by that point, which must be series eight or nine, like, that is crazy amount of legacy for one episode character to have.
- [54:15]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, well, he does come back again and he leaves again. And that's where I'm not sold on David, because for somebody that carries as much trauma and abandonment issues as Phoebe, how are you going to be the greatest love of her life and then go back to Minsk? Give this girl some consistency in her life. David, shit her. Get off the pot, man.
- [54:31]
Karen Dunhu
Shit her. Get off the pot, man.
- [54:34]
Ryan Farrell
That's where Mike came in. And Mike is played by Paul Rudd, and he looked exactly as he does now because he's a vampire. And Mike is a musician from the Upper east side. He's from a very wealthy family, and he basically meets Phoebe. Because Joey lies to Phoebe about setting her up with a guy called Mike, but then realizes that he has to actually set her up with a guy called Mike. So walks into Central park, shouts out the name Mike, and he's found his mic. And I just. I think the relationship between Phoebe and Mike is just absolutely perfect because he completely takes Phoebe at face value and loves every crazy thing about her. And that's the happy ending that we wanted for Phoebe.
- [55:28]
Karen Dunhu
Crap bag.
- [55:32]
Ryan Farrell
Oh, my God. The Princess Consuela Banana Hammer episode. You know, the. The later seasons of Friends. I don't know how anybody else feels about it, but I don't think it's a hot take to say that after season eight, it kind of went off the deep end.
- [55:47]
Karen Dunhu
I think off the deep end is strong. I think, like, it's still funny and everything. It's just that, like, the show is about that period of your twenties where your friends are not just your family, they're your whole life. Do you know what I mean? And, like, that phase of your life can generally last for, like, 10, 15 years, between sort of 20 to 35, 36 or whatever. And, like, then other things just start taking precedent. Whether it's, like, working in a different country, whether it's having children, whether it's looking after parents, whatever it is, other things just take over, which means that you don't have this bottomless amount of time to, like, hang out. And so I think once they started getting older and once the kind of the time pressures of life started bearing down on them, which is that, like, well, how are we going to wrap this up? And which one of them are going to have kids? And blah, blah. It just. The show just very naturally wasn't about that anymore and therefore became less compelling.
- [56:41]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, I totally get where you're coming from. But with Friends, where I started to have trouble with it was that it felt that it ran out of steam. In later seasons, it got too big and the snake started to eat itself. The characters started to become caricatures of themselves. Monica didn't just like to clean. That bitch really liked to fucking clean. You know, Chandler wasn't just sarcastic. You know, you couldn't have a conversation with him because he was an absolute nightmare. Joey didn't just like pizza. He wanted two pizzas and a wank. You know, it was. It was all a bit too much. And that's where, you know, I'll watch an episode of Friends if it comes on Comedy Central. If it's season two, I'll watch three or four episodes if it's season nine, I'll watch an episode. You know, like, my go to Comfort seasons are one to three, and I'm feeling particularly freaky. I'll go into season six, but after that I just start to taper off because I don't know what it is. It's shine starts to dull a little. And I definitely think from season eight on, you know, a completely different conversation. But we're living in our friends in a post 911 world.
- [57:57]
Karen Dunhu
Did you say post 9 11?
- [58:00]
Ryan Farrell
That surely never came up on this podcast.
- [58:06]
Karen Dunhu
I want to go back a minute to what is a very pre 911 story on friends, and I think when we haven't talked about yet, which is that Phoebe was married.
- [58:16]
Ryan Farrell
Yes.
- [58:17]
Karen Dunhu
To Duncan, the ice dancer. That. The gay. No, the gay. The straight. Is it the. Hang on. She marries him because he needs a green card because he's Canadian. Right.
- [58:29]
Ryan Farrell
Well, he was gay, but then he gets married to a woman, and that's why he needs to divorce Phoebe.
- [58:33]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah, exactly. But it was originally a green card marriage. And like, the. The joke of it being that, like, Phoebe was in love with him even when she thought he was gay or whatever and married him to help him out, but also just kind of to be married to him as well, because she just loved him. And then him breaking to her that actually he's straight. And it's like this very funny. Like, these are the kind of, like, comedy reversals that Friends does so well. Like the way that Joey, when Phoebe's in the hospital giving birth to the twins, he's also giving birth to kidney stones. It's that thing of, like, Duncan having to come out to Phoebe as straight is like this upsetting, like, oh, my God, who else knows?
- [59:08]
Ryan Farrell
And Phoebe's not mad because he's straight. You know, it's because he's not straight.
- [59:12]
Karen Dunhu
For her, she was mad at him for being straight and in love with somebody else. And that's just very painful.
- [59:18]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, totally. I mean, I. I think that's one of the early signs as well of, you know, showing, you know, what a pure and good person that Phoebe is. You know, she. She had this relationship with Duncan where she loved him and wanted to keep him in her life, keep him in the country, you know, keep him in his profession. And the most logical thing for her to do was say, right, let's get married. And I think, as I said, my relationship with Phoebe has evolved over the years in terms of where I've aligned with her. And I think that that's where, you know, I see her as being, you know, the. The most queer example of a character obviously outside of Carol and Susan. But in a very, again, heteronormative 90s show where now it's lambasted for not showing much diversity. I think that Phoebe is probably why so many queer people gravitated towards that character in the 90s, because she was other and she. She did stay very true to her beliefs and she was unapologetically herself. And you know, she. She did lean towards justice and the good. And all of her beliefs, which back then portrayed her as the zany one, would probably be aligned with like liberal ideals.
- [60:45]
Karen Dunhu
I forget how you say that about her being kind of like a queer coded character. And she has a lot in common with the backstories of many queer people, which is that alienated from her family. Like a huge amount of queer people you find are like, have been alone from a very young age. And also this kind of real investment and interest in like spiritualism and like New Age stuff or whatever. New Age belief systems that really speak to somebody who's like. Like, you often get this with people who have been on their own for a while. They're really into astrology or they're really into getting their aura photograph taken or whatever because it's a thing of like. Often people who have rejected their original home or have been rejected by their original home, it also means that the kind of the grand religious structure that raised them as well, they've rejected that too. And so they're always in this kind of searching mode of like, well, I don't really have that bedrock to cling onto. And I wasn't really. The values I was brought up with weren't necessarily good. And so now I'm searching for something that I can frame my life around. And that's something that feels very modern about that character.
- [61:52]
Ryan Farrell
Totally. And I think that she's someone who always comes from a place of being non judgment. Oh, she. Somebody that funnels her trauma, her pain into her art. You know, her music. We haven't even spoke about her music.
- [62:07]
Karen Dunhu
Oh my God.
- [62:08]
Ryan Farrell
But you know, she famously had a night where she sung 12 songs about her mother's suicide and one song about a snowman. Can you remember the episode where she gets the job in the library singing to. To children and she becomes the Listen lady and the kids love oh the cat when the meadow goes moo and the farmer hits them in the head.
- [62:32]
Karen Dunhu
And that's how we get hamburgers.
- [62:36]
Ryan Farrell
And she really relished the role of being like The Listen lady. And I think that's because she wanted people to tell it like it was when she was a kid so that she would be better prepared for the harshness of the world. Because, I mean, again, another episode that.
- [62:51]
Karen Dunhu
We see, which we say that in that episode as well, she's like, people were nice to me when I was a kid. Am I misremembering that? Like, and then my mom killed herself.
- [62:58]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, maybe. I can't remember. But that probably makes sense because of course is the episode that we have where Phoebe is unaware that a lot of well known movies have sad endings because her mother shielded her from the trauma by saying the end. And then we turn off like Old Yeller before the doctor dog died.
- [63:16]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah.
- [63:17]
Ryan Farrell
And she was like, yeah, she shielded me from the pain of the world. And then she put her head in the oven.
- [63:22]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah.
- [63:23]
Ryan Farrell
You know.
- [63:23]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah. And then there's also the thing of like. It's kind of comes up a lot where she's like, I hate pbs. It's like, it's so fun. I only realize kind of how funny it is looking back where it's like, you know, Phoebe is the kind of person who should love PBS because it's like this very noble American institution of publicly funded television. She's. I hate them because. And I don't want to give them money ever. Because like all the kids on Sesame street, they all like. She wrote to them because she was having such a hard time and they never answered her letter and she was like, fuck them forever.
- [63:53]
Ryan Farrell
They just sent her like pencils or something and she was like, I didn't have paper.
- [64:00]
Karen Dunhu
But it's. Yeah, it's just I really, again, I just don't believe that any of these like, details were. They were added for fun, but they were not added to carelessly. And it, it really something I keep coming back to when, like looking at the series again is really defining for myself the difference between comfort food and junk food.
- [64:20]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah.
- [64:21]
Karen Dunhu
Because I think a lot of what we have now in as a content to like watch at the end of a day's work or while we're boiling the kettle or whatever is like just fucking slop on our phones. And there's something about Friends that just feel so lovingly crafted that, yeah. It isn't intellectual. Yeah. It's not going to challenge you. Yeah. You have seen it a million times before. But that comfort food element is like. Yeah, I know this is like sort of good and big and soft, but it's not gonna, you know, it's. It's just gonna hold me for a second.
- [64:57]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely. I mean, Friends is for everyone. It's. It's always there when you need it. If you've, you know, traveled home from work and the tube's been a nightmare and you're soaking and I sound like I'm going to break out into the theme song and you really do.
- [65:12]
Karen Dunhu
It hasn't been your day, your week, your month, or even your year.
- [65:16]
Ryan Farrell
Even your fucking year. But I remember when you and I lived together in South London. When I first moved to London, we.
- [65:25]
Karen Dunhu
Lived together twice in our friendship.
- [65:28]
Ryan Farrell
So our second edition and I come home and, you know, it could be you and Kat and Nick, our housemates would be sat and there would be Friends repeats on and people would be eating, you know, like a Charlie Bighams cottage pie. And just whatever we were eating when we were on 20 grand a year. And your evening just automatically slid in like a sort of place of comfort because you're on the couch, you're watching Friends and you're safe. You're safe the same way that you were when you were watching it when you were 10.
- [66:01]
Karen Dunhu
So. Right. Yeah.
- [66:02]
Ryan Farrell
I think that it often, you know, gets sort of downplayed now, but because it has been repeated to death. But Friends is always there when you need it. And people forget that it was the biggest thing in the world at one point. It was the biggest thing in culture. Literally rejuvenated, or not even rejuvenated, but bomb birthed the coffee shop.
- [66:27]
Karen Dunhu
You know, aesthetic.
- [66:28]
Ryan Farrell
Aesthetic, you know, lifestyle, landscape, whatever you want to call it. But, you know, people hanging out in coffee shops, you know, really wasn't a thing before Friends. And. And is that true? Yes.
- [66:40]
Karen Dunhu
I thought like the 90s was all about like the Starbucks ification and like America drinks coffee now.
- [66:45]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. But Friends very much fed into that.
- [66:48]
Karen Dunhu
Yeah, true.
- [66:50]
Ryan Farrell
And I think that the part of what makes it so comforting is, you know, you're watching six people who just merge well together and do it so seamlessly. But that couldn't have been done without the loving craft of the actors and the writers to just really refine those characters. And I don't think that there's anybody. Well, two. Two people in the cast that I would credit for actively doing the work and, you know, building the. The universes of their characters. The best are Lisa Kudrow and Matthew Perry. I think Matthew Perry, because he was very famously an improviser and sort of built on a lot of his lines, but based on, you know, other characters she's created and built. I can't help but think that Lisa Kudrow was instrumental in growing and evolving the character of Phoebe to be who she is and who we know and who we love. And for that, I say thank you.
- [67:54]
Karen Dunhu
For that, I say thank you. People who dismiss that character as being just like a silly side character, they do so at their own peril. Like, so much to enjoy.
- [68:04]
Ryan Farrell
So much to enjoy.
- [68:06]
Karen Dunhu
It's interesting at the moment because, like, as I've mentioned a couple of times already, I'm getting ready to make a TV show about. About people who are friends. Like, I'm literally moving in, in five weeks to live in Dublin and to start making the Rachel Incident, which is a. It's such a weird conversation to be having with you on this podcast about, because I wrote a book that was sort of inspired by the time that we lived together as friends. And now we're in the process of adapting that for television. And so I'm having this experience of, like. And it's one of those things where it's photocopies of photocopies of photocopies where it's like, I wrote a character who was like, you were the inspiration point for. And, like, we've talked about that before in places. And then already when he became a character in a novel, he was like a distillation. He wasn't really like you, he just was kind of like you. And then writing the character again for screen, it's like, then it's kind of another distillation. Right? So. So it's that. But. But all the same, there are still things that are true of that character that are also true of you.
- [69:13]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah, but I mean, that's what I was gonna say. How. How do you, in creating the Rachel Incident as a show now take it from, you know, an idea in your head that was based on our lived experience of which you built a world from that and created a book into to, you know, creating a TV show, and then taking those characters that you've created that have been inspired based on people you know, and making them fully formed with their own quips and traits that you don't just build in your own imagination, but you're actually going to.
- [69:50]
Karen Dunhu
See, but also hand over to an actor and. Hand over. But. And not just hand over to an actor, but hand over to a costume designer, a director, and all these people who have to shape the character, which is, like, why it's so. It feels like a very strange full circle moment right now to be talking about Phoebe because she's somebody I have invoked over this process a lot. When we've been at script level, when I've been, like, dealing with feedback on various aspects of the character of James, who is the character who is inspired by you. And, like, when people are asking about various points of dialogue or points about the character's backstory or whatever, I was like, the thing you have to remember about this character is, like, you. You really want to put him in the universe of Phoebe Buffay in that, like, he's not gonna be someone who, like, if he's telling you something about what happened to him in his past, he's not gonna put on this heavy voice and suddenly, like, say, oh, but, oh, I don't want to talk about that, or I'll never mind, or whatever. It's like, he'll completely tell you because he's sort of sunny about it, and he, like, has dealt with it internally enough to not be able to not be, like, dragged into it. But at the same time, like, he's light about it. He's effervescent about it. He's light on his feet. He. It's not troubling him, so it shouldn't trouble you either. But at the same time, he's not gonna give you anything more than he's comfortable sharing. And it's like a really. There's kind. When you're talking about characters who do that, Phoebe Buffet is actually the best touch point that you can have. I'd be like, no, no, no. This is not a character who's, like, living through trauma. This is Phoebe Buffet. You know what I mean?
- [71:26]
Ryan Farrell
Absolutely. I think then that question kind of answers itself and that everybody that you've brought together for this project, they're doing it because of the love of the project. And much like Lisa Kudrow, you know, they want the best for the characters. And that's how it's going to manifest in the screen, which is why I cannot fucking wait to watch it. I'm so proud of you.
- [71:48]
Karen Dunhu
You got to visit Setman. It's going to be so trippy as well. I can't wait.
- [71:51]
Ryan Farrell
I can't wait.
- [71:52]
Karen Dunhu
I was showing Ryan the house today that we're gonna shoot it in, and it's near our old house. And it's very weird. It's just very weird to, as you say, like, watch the snake eat its own tail on this particular project. It's just very strange.
- [72:04]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. There'll be lots of happy tears over the coming months.
- [72:06]
Karen Dunhu
There will be.
- [72:07]
Ryan Farrell
And lots of nostalgia for our time that I wouldn't revisit except in my memories, fondly, like, Rose, I love you.
- [72:19]
Karen Dunhu
Is there anything else you want to say about Phoebe Buffay while we're here?
- [72:22]
Ryan Farrell
I think she's great.
- [72:24]
Karen Dunhu
Should we do some Phoebe Buffay lines that we like? Because I feel like we've been heavy and now I want us to say some of her funny lines. My favorite is when she's, like, stroking Monica's hair and she's like, oh, Phoebs. And Monica's like, that's your name. And she's like, oh. I thought that's what we called each other.
- [72:42]
Ryan Farrell
I love that. Inadvertently, there's. So it's not directly related to Phoebe, but there was a time in the episode where someone at work stole Ross's sandwich and he was writing a note on the next sandwich so nobody would steal it. And he's like, hey. She was like, maybe I can give you a hand, you know, because I had to say some, like, pretty mean stuff in the streets. And Ross was like, oh, what do you mean? Something like, keep your mitts off my glove. And Chandler said, when you see Phoebe on the streets, is she surrounded by the entire cast of Annie? I also love the episode where Chandler kisses Joey's sister when he's drunk and can't remember which sister. And he's trying to find out. And the friends are getting it mixed up. And Chandler says, see? You didn't know either. And Phoebe says, but we didn't kiss her. I also love the episode I can't remember what the situation was, but it was one of the later ones and it really fucking killed me, where Phoebe gets very highly strong about. She's arranged a dinner. I think it's for her birthday. Everybody is super late in getting to the table, and Ross and Rachel can't get a babysitter, so they get Judy Geller to come and sit by the bar and look after Emma. And Judy is getting progressively wasted over the course of the dinner. And Emma's sock falls off. And Ross and Rachel are trying to get her attention. And that's the point when Phoebe loses it. She stands up and she says, oh, my God, pick up the sock, Judy. Pick up the sock.
- [74:27]
Karen Dunhu
Pick up the sock.
- [74:29]
Ryan Farrell
Oh, my God. Even now, if I watch that, I will be holding the piss in.
- [74:37]
Karen Dunhu
I love when she finds a thumb in her can. There's so many things in this show that, like. I mean, so many. Like, okay, there's so many, like, jokes that are like, oh, they thought of a situation. How can we make this situation as funny through the lens of Chandler. How can we make it more intense through the lens of Monica? And you're like, right, I understand joke writing. This is interesting. But then sometimes they just come up with literally the most random fucking things that you're like, how did anyone come up with like that when like when she's giving birth to the twins and.
- [75:04]
Ryan Farrell
Her, her doctor's obsessed with the fawns.
- [75:10]
Karen Dunhu
Or like because her original doctor is sick. So he comes in and he's like so proper in a proper like New York sort of high status character. He's like, phoebe, great to meet you. I've had a look at your vitals. Everything looking great. We're going to get to in here. Everything's going to go amazing. By the way, I love Fonzie.
- [75:28]
Ryan Farrell
Oh my God. And Rachel is like, I'm going to fuck around and find out. And she basically throws in, you know who I always liked? Mark. And the doctor's like, mark froze the Fonz. Phoebe's like, undo it, undo it, undo it.
- [75:44]
Karen Dunhu
I love about Phoebe that she's like such a, like obviously a quirky character or whatever, but like she has so little patience for other quirks, other cooks. She's like, no, no. When the rubber hits the road, I want my baby to be delivered by a normal person.
- [75:59]
Ryan Farrell
Yeah. And she chases out the junior doctor and she's like, go little boy, go.
- [76:02]
Karen Dunhu
Go little boy, go Doogie.
- [76:05]
Ryan Farrell
But the other one that kills me as well is when Phoebe, as a wedding present to Chandler and Monica wants to give them her grandmother's cookie recipe. And it turns out she finds out in the end that her grandmother's basically just passed off Nestle Toll House cookies as her own. And she screams at the floor. It's reasons like this. You're burning in hell. I think at one point as well, when she's talking about her grandmother, she refers to her as looking up at me. Maybe it's because she lied and said that her granddad was Albert Einstein.
- [76:44]
Karen Dunhu
I don't know. I don't know if the hell offends necessarily. Also, do we have any. I feel like we haven't talked about the songs enough. What are your favorite songs from the VB Buffet catalog?
- [76:53]
Ryan Farrell
I mean, the obvious would be Smelly Cat, isn't it?
- [76:55]
Karen Dunhu
And I see, I feel like they overused Smelly Cat as like a thing. It was like the Mr. Hankey, the Christmas poo of friends. Do you know what I mean? Like, it was funny enough and then I just felt like it became this odd chorus of the 90s that just took too long to die.
- [77:09]
Ryan Farrell
I think that people just thought it was very funny.
- [77:13]
Karen Dunhu
It's just not that funny. She wrote funnier songs and I just realized that Please tell Ross hello to Santa Claus. Emma, your name poses a dilemma.
- [77:28]
Ryan Farrell
I am waiting for my paper machine man. Hello my baby, hello my so good. Are we just going to sing free PPFA songs until the theme song plays us out? Sentimental garbage shamelessly Commercial.
- [77:54]
Karen Dunhu
Thanks Ryan.
- [77:55]
Ryan Farrell
Thank you.
- [78:15]
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