Friends Thru The Lens of a Ross Apologist with Imogen West-Knights

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Sentimental Garbage

Episode: Friends Thru The Lens of a Ross Apologist with Imogen West-Knights
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Imogen West-Knights
Date: November 13, 2025

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Overview

In this vibrant and richly nostalgic episode, Caroline O'Donoghue and guest Imogen West-Knights dive deep into the beloved sitcom Friends, with a particular focus on the character of Ross Geller. Framed as a playful but thorough “courtroom” debate—Caroline as the prosecutor and Imogen as Ross’s defense attorney—they unravel the many reasons why Ross is the sitcom world’s most maligned friend, and whether, in fact, he deserves the scorn.

Combining incisive pop culture analysis, comedic reminiscence, and genuine emotional insight, the episode explores the psychology, flaws, and redeeming qualities of Ross Geller—and also unpacks broader themes of found family, nostalgia, personal growth, sitcom tropes, and the evolution of cultural taste.

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Main Themes and Purpose

• To re-examine Friends, specifically through the “Ross-apologist” lens
• To challenge the cultural consensus that Ross is inherently the worst friend
• To consider character psychology, narrative necessity, and the 1990s cultural context
• To celebrate and critique the enduring cultural impact of Friends

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ross Geller Problem: Why Is He So Hated?

• Polls confirm Ross is consistently ranked “most hated friend” (02:21)
• “If Friends has a moral…it’s a morality tale about found family” (03:04)
• Caroline and Imogen agree that Ross’s unpopularity is both cultural and personal, and they set out to dissect if it’s fair.

2. Ross, Rachel, and Jealousy: The Mark & Copy Girl Saga

• Caroline outlines Ross’s jealous behavior when Rachel gets her dream job and befriends Mark (06:15)
• “Ross’s major crime…this is the charge that would land him the most years in character prison.” (07:15, Imogen)
• Imogen’s defense: Ross’s behavior is shaped by foundational trauma from Carol leaving him. “He loses her, and he didn't see it coming. That drives him through most of his sort of 20s and 30s…” (09:08)
• Both hosts objectively dislike jealousy, but Imogen frames it as psychologically consistent for Ross.

3. The Roots of Ross: Psychology & Family

• Ross as “miracle child” of the Geller family, with internalized beliefs of specialness and insecurity (15:00)
• “A boy who is a total freak and complete nerd, but also his parents are obsessed with him.” (15:48, Caroline)
• This tension between self-worth and fear of loss powers many of Ross’s choices.

4. Academia, Pedantry, and Social Ineptitude

• Conversation on how early academic validation can lead to pursuit of hierarchical, insular worlds (16:30–17:20)
• Ross thrives in the museum—his domain of authority and comfort.
• “There are three foundational traumas for Ross, and one of them is being a loser in high school.” (18:37, Imogen)

5. The “We Were On A Break” Debate

• They retrace the infamous breakup, the copy girl incident, and aftermath (19:17-34:18)
• Imogen: “Unwise, but not illegal. Not actually convictionable...When someone says, I think we should take a break, that is coward speak for, I want to break up, but I don't know how to stick the landing.” (30:55)
• Caroline notes Ross’s insecurity about Mark and his group’s poor advice, implicating Chandler and Joey as “co-defendants.” (32:08)
• Ultimately, both acknowledge the iconic ambiguity and narrative richness of this plotline.

6. The Prom Video: Genius Redemption (‘He’s a Lover Boy’)

• Reflection on the scene where Rachel realizes Ross’s long-standing devotion (28:35–30:37)
• “It is heartbreaking. And that he never told her.” (29:06, Imogen)
• Celebrated as a masterstroke of sitcom writing.

7. Ross as Romantic: Enduring, Hopeful, Often Foolish

• Ross’s failures in love and persistent hope become an admirable quality
• “He never, ever gives up on love. Like, there's a scene...he says...I think [marriage is] the purest expression of commitment...And this is a man who's had three failed marriages and it hasn't killed his spirit.” (27:18, Imogen)

8. The “List,” Copy Girl, and More Sins

• Caroline lists further grievances: insensitive pros/cons list about Rachel, the extended fallout from jealousy, inability to admit fault, rage episodes, etc.
• Imogen defends Ross as “easily led astray” by friends and suffering from a need to be “right” (36:59).

9. Ross v. Phoebe: Skepticism & Insistence on Rationality

• Frequent clashing with Phoebe’s worldview, especially her belief in “nonsense” (e.g., her mother in a cat) (38:00–39:11)
• “The inability to be wrong even when it would be prudent and socially cohesive to just not fight the argument.” (38:00, Imogen)

10. The Emily Storyline & Britishness

• Both dislike Emily as a character, noting she “feels like an American's version of a British person.” (44:40, Imogen)
• Relatability of Emily’s family vs. inauthentic friends
• The “name at the wedding” (Ross says Rachel) acknowledged as a genuine low point, but with sympathy: “Wires can get crossed. He'd just seen her. She turned up unexpectedly.” (48:51)

11. Bad Father Accusation

• Both refute the idea Ross is a bad father, blaming writer boredom with kid plots (52:24–54:44)
• They praise sweet moments like the Holiday Armadillo episode (57:29) and Ross’s pride in teaching about Hanukkah.

12. Rage: Ross’s “Red Ross” Problem

• Caroline: “I'm impressed by how early the rage is seeded.” (61:04)
• Imogen points out real-world consequences: Ross is the only friend forced into therapy due to his outbursts (63:29)
• His “rage” is treated as both serious and hilarious within the canon.

13. Aging, Attempts at Cool, & Outsider Status

• Ross’s attempts to reinvent himself—leather pants, earrings, sports car—are likened to a “premature midlife crisis.” (58:56)
• He is often depicted as a bit outside the central friends’ apartment dynamic.

14. Dating a Student: Out-of-Character or Just Tragic?

• Both find his relationship with a student to be a narrative misstep—“It doesn’t feel of Ross”—though they suggest it’s tied to his need for acceptance and coolness (69:09).

15. Homophobia, Carol & Susan, and the Era

• Ross’s struggles around Carol and Susan’s relationship are discussed frankly as products of “a different time.” (70:06)
• “Let us not forget…he walks Carol down the aisle. So lovely, that for all his pain…he does it.” (70:56, Imogen)

16. Chubby Ankles, the List, and Sitcom Insecurities

• Dissection of the infamous “list" (pro/con about Rachel), especially “chubby ankles,” as a hilariously damaging but intentionally absurd detail (73:07–74:38).
• “The joke is, she's thin. What I eat for the next 10 years. This one line, this weight of a child.” (75:08, Imogen)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ross’s Trauma and Jealousy:
  • “He loses her, and he didn't see it coming. That drives him through most of his sort of 20s and 30s…” (09:08, Imogen)
• Prom Video as Redemption:
  • “His face, when he sees that that guy has turned up to take the prom after all. And his little corsage, it just. It is heartbreaking. And that he never told her.” (29:06, Imogen)
• On “We Were On a Break”:
  • “Unwise, but not illegal. Not actually convictionable...When someone says, I think we should take a break, that is coward speak for, I want to break up, but I don't know how to stick the landing.” (30:55, Imogen)
• On academic validation and adulthood:
  • “People try and protect their children from the world and all they're doing is harming the child with themselves.” (54:44, Caroline)
• On Ross’s enduring romanticism:
  • “He never, ever gives up on love…And this is a man who's had three failed marriages and it hasn't killed his spirit.” (27:18, Imogen)
• On Ross's rage:
  • “He is getting enraged at his boss over a sandwich and having to be tranquilized at work.” (62:39, Imogen)
• On sitcom body image jokes:
  • “What I eat for the next 10 years. This one line, this weight of a child.” (75:08, Imogen)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:21] – Ross's status as “most hated friend”
• [06:15–09:35] – First major charge: Jealousy, Mark, and Copy Girl; roots of Ross’s trauma
• [15:00–17:30] – Ross and the Geller family dynamic; academic validation
• [19:17–34:18] – “We were on a break” saga and its ramifications
• [28:35–30:37] – Prom video as redemption and character-building brilliance
• [38:00–39:11] – Ross's rationality and inability to cede arguments, especially with Phoebe
• [44:40] – Why Emily “feels like an American's version of a British person”
• [47:28–51:04] – Ross says the wrong name at the wedding, and aftermath
• [52:24–54:44] – Bad father charge addressed; moments with Ben, Barbie, and Holiday Armadillo
• [61:04–63:29] – Onset and progression of “Red Ross” and the consequences of rage
• [69:09] – Dating a student: context and critique
• [70:56] – Ross walking Carol down the aisle: a grace note
• [73:07–75:17] – The List, chubby ankles, and sitcom body image insecurities

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Tone & Flow

The hosts embrace a conversational, highly self-aware, and affectionate tone. They weave personal anecdotes with razor-sharp sitcom critique, openly discuss their shifting identification with Friends characters (“the heart of the Ross apologist is herself a Ross”—24:46), and regularly break into fits of laughter at the absurdity and familiarity of Friends as a cultural touchstone. The mood is playful yet nuanced, with genuine empathy for Ross, the show’s writing, and the anxieties of both the ’90s and current adulthood.

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Final Thoughts

• The episode ultimately finds sympathy for Ross, framing his flaws as both psychologically understandable and integral to the show’s emotional realism.
• Imogen and Caroline laugh off many of the most common “charges” against Ross, demonstrating how pop-culture villains are as much mirrors as scapegoats.
• “I’m basically out of reasons to hate Ross. I love Ross. You love Ross...Good. Case closed.” (76:04, Caroline)

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Where To Find Imogen

• “You can find me when I want to be found. You can find me in the FT Weekend magazine. That's the place I opt out.” (77:46, Imogen)

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In summary:
This episode is an incisive, emotional, and often hilarious reconsideration of Ross Geller’s legacy, perfect for Friends diehards, sitcom lovers, and anyone interested in the layered mechanics of nostalgia.

Transcript

[A]

If you're a custodial supervisor at a local high school, you know that cleanliness is key and that the best place to get cleaning supplies is from Grainger. Grainger helps you stay fully stocked on the products you trust, from paper towels and disinfectants to floor scrubbers. Plus, you can rely on Grainger for easy reordering, so you never run out of what you need. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Hello and welcome to Friends Through a Lens, the podcast miniseries where I talk to my friends about the show Friends through the lens of their choosing. My name is Karen o' Donoghue and. Knock, knock. Who's there? It's Ross's lunch. And joining me is the holiday armadillo herself. It's Imogen west nights.

[B]

Hello. Nice to be here. You love saying Friends through a Lens.

[A]

That is the whole reason this miniseries exists is that I started saying it to myself while rocking around my flash.

[B]

It's great. It really keeps giving. I'm gonna say it again, friends through.

[A]

A Lens, because I just think that we have talked so much about this show as a culture because it's like, Obviously it finished 15 years ago, then it went on Comedy Central. Now everyone Alive has seen 1000 hours of it, and all anyone can talk about is how gorgeous Jennifer Aniston's hair was.

[B]

It was.

[A]

How problematic it is and how much. Drumroll, please. Everyone hates Ross.

[B]

Everyone hates Ross. So the reason I'm here is that you and I were talking about this and we both thought the phrase Ross apologist was of its own merit. Such a funny thing to say that I should come on and try and defend Ross.

[A]

Friends through the lens of a Ross apologist.

[B]

And I have always had a soft spot for Ross. And the thing about Ross, I looked this up. It is. You sort of know he's the most hated friend, but I looked it up, and he really is the most hated friend. They would do polls, you know, back in the noughties and stuff of how people felt about all the friends or get people to rank them and probably.

[A]

The most hated friend.

[B]

The most hated friend.

[A]

The friend who is quantifiable by data.

[B]

75.5Percent of people in certain polls would put Ross.

[A]

And who would follow Ross?

[B]

I think Monica. Yeah, people didn't like Monica. The Gellers, they really were not an adored pairing. Unfairly, I think, as I will go on in great detail to argue that I think Phoebe also comes quite low for some people.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Phoebe's my worst friend, I think.

[A]

Really? She's my best friend.

[B]

Really. I just think. Get it together, you know? What are you on about?

[A]

She's been through a lot.

[B]

Yeah, but that was ages ago, you know, Grow up, Grow up. But I don't. Like, I really never quite understood what it was about Ross that rubbed everybody up so wrong. Right.

[A]

Cause I guess, I mean, if Friends has a moral, it is. And it does. It's a morality tale. Do you know, there's this phrase that comes up in book talk and people who talk about books online, which is the. The found family trope. Right. And this is very. Friends is Very much exists within the found family trope kind of idea. And the whole thing about Found Family is that it takes a lot of different kinds of people to make something work. Which is why, like, everyone loves Ocean's Eleven because they're very flawed, weird men. But they all have something that they're bringing. And that's nice.

[B]

That's true.

[A]

And we all agree that's nice.

[B]

And we all love to look inside casinos. So good.

[A]

We all have a private belief that we would be good in a casino.

[B]

And none of us have been inside a casino. I think twice in my life. I've not done any of the betting. And I felt as I stood there, I was like, I'm gonna take the house.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I could be the one.

[A]

Like, this will be the moment where my secret gift is revealed.

[B]

Yeah. Even though I don't know the rules of any.

[A]

I'm a card shark somehow. And, yeah, it's very strange, but the. And the whole thing with the friends is that they all have good things and bad things.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But we have decided that Ross has the worst things of all.

[B]

Ross has the worst things. This has been decided, apparently, by culture. But I. So we agreed that I was going to do this because I do have a soft spot for Ross. But then, you know, my knowledge of friends these days is the same as everyone's knowledge of friends, which is that I watched a thousand hours of it 15 years ago, and I sort of have it, like, stains on the fabric of myself where it's like, I will never clean friends.

[A]

They will never wash out.

[B]

They will never wash out. It's just there. But then I went back and did my due diligence and, you know, watched all of Ross's greatest moments and thought, you know, can I back this up? And the evidence is quite damning. But initially I was thinking, like, well, do I like Ross? Because David Schwim is An amazing actor and that you need Ross to sort of flesh out, as you say, the kind of like the dramatis personae. But I don't actually think that. I feel like I can almost like a kind of legal defense, like a barrister. I'm here as Ross's defense. And I have a case, I think, to put for all of his flaws.

[A]

Okay, I too love Ross either way. But we're just going to pretend like we're in a fake court in debate club, in secondary school where we're being made to argue against these things. So I will be taking the position as prosecutor in this case. I will list the things with which Ross is despised for and you will refute them.

[B]

And I will refute them. Imagine that we're both wearing those, like, fuck ass little wigs.

[A]

Would you like me to cite all of his faults now or would you like to go through them one by one and pick them apart?

[B]

I think let's go. Let's go one by one. Let's go one by one.

[A]

Okay, I will begin. I'll try and be chronological about this, but I will dart around. I think his first biggest sin is once he finally enters into this relationship with Rachel that he has been pining for for his entire life.

[B]

He.

[A]

Is so jealous and needy with her. She gets a job in fashion. She's wanted a job in fashion her whole life. The story of Friends, in a way, is following Rachel Green go from the sort of like, spoiled Long island princess into being this like, competent, capable woman who goes from waitress to sort of Bloomingdale's dresser to junior executive. You know, it's very. A very satisfying arc to follow. And we want it so badly for her. And then when we see Ross get in the way of it, yes, it is very. It feels like personally offensive in a way that nothing else does. And then this all culminates in him being incredibly jealous of Mark, who is her friend, who got her the job, who she met kind of randomly in Monica's diner that she's working in. And then it kind of spins out of control to the point where he sends singing telegrams to her office, they have a huge fight, and then he ends up getting with the copy girl. The copy girl.

[B]

The copy girl. So this is. This is obviously Ross's major crime. This is the biggest accusation. This is the charge that would land him the most years in character prison. So it is worth unpicking at length, I think, because it touches on a lot of the things that plague Ross throughout the entire series. So let's because the jealousy. Yes, the jealousy is bad. And it's not. Doesn't come up for the first time with Mark. It comes up for the first time with Paolo. And if you remember Paolo.

[A]

Oh, my God. Do we recall Paolo?

[B]

Do we recall Paolo? So, like, insanely Italian Paolo, who kind of appears out of nowhere in the hall of the apartment block, and then she has a kind of flirtation with him. And Ross is very weird about that.

[A]

It's really before the show has truly found its place where it's like, what if a guy has an accent?

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So it rears its head. Then it rears its head again and again in his relationships. Is that he has this very fiercely jealous streak. Bad. I actually think jealousy is one of the. It's the most unattractive thing to me in a. In a person. I just. It's gross. So I. I had a hard time looking back on the evidence of Ross, and I was like, this is very unattractive. But everybody has the right to counsel, and I'm going to defend him anyway, and I'm gonna do so by pointing to Carol.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

What happened with Carol? You have to understand his psychological damage that he took from his relationship with Carol in order to understand a lot about Ross. Throughout the series, there's two foundational traumas for Ross. We will no doubt get to the second one, but the first one is the Carol relationship ending. First woman he ever sleeps with. The first time that this incredibly loserish, nerdy little dude gets the girl.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He loses her totally out of the blue while she is pregnant with his child to someone else. It's a woman. It was a different time. They decided to be very homophobic about it on the show. But the crucial thing is he loses her, and he didn't see it coming. That drives him through most of his sort of 20s and 30s, I think. And he gets Rachel particularly.

[A]

Sorry, if we could pause on Carol for a minute. Who do you think they were when they met? Because the Carol that we get to know through the show, there's something quite like waspy, yet earthy about her. Like, you can. Even though we see so little of her, you can totally understand why you would be head over heels in love with her because there's something very strong but feminine about her. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who do you think she was when they met?

[B]

I. I'm sure there is a canon version of where they met. I can't remember what it is.

[A]

No, you can use your imagination, though.

[B]

I use my imagination. I think she it's that. It's that she was glamorous. So I think he has always gone after women who seem like he couldn't get them. And then he got one, and he's.

[A]

Had quite a few that are, like, a big trope for Ross. Is that him massively punching?

[B]

Yes, always. I mean, I think to watch Friends, you would think that every female paleontologist in the world was a smoking hottie.

[A]

Because it's, like, a famously erotic job.

[B]

Exactly. So, yes, I think. I think the Carol thing is really, really key. It, like, fucked him up bad, and he never got to grips with it.

[A]

And he got married at, like. Because he's a little bit older than Monica. So I think at the beginning of the series, she's 25. He could be 27.

[B]

Possibly. Yeah. So that means. And if she's heavily pregnant with that kid, let's say they've been married two years. He got married at, like, 25. Which is kind of crazy. Yeah.

[A]

And not that crazy if you've been together since college.

[B]

I guess that's true. That's true. But it is a big part of his character that he's like. He's a lover boy, and he wants the. He wants the end game. He wants to be settled down with the girl and the kid and all of this stuff, and it just gets taken away from him in a very dramatic, sudden way. So then when he gets Rachel, who he was in some ways, you know, even more, like, invested in having.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The idea that she might be taken away by someone, he's high alert. His nervous system is fright by the whole Carol of it all.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That said, it is repellent. The things that he did in order to keep Mark from Rachel. Like, it's gross. The barbershop quartet is, like, the most embarrassing thing.

[A]

It's so funny.

[B]

Really funny.

[A]

So funny. Because the thing is, like, David Schwimmer is such a fucking amazing performer. Like, one of my biggest, like, things, like, my credentials is that, like, David Schumer was born in the wrong time. He should be a silent film God. Like, he should be busting his head.

[B]

The best physical comedy in the series is Ross.

[A]

Yeah. And it's like, it's his kind of limbs. He's so gangly, and he just knows what to do with his body to make things look as funny as they can. And it's like that big brown eyes and, like, the long face.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It looks like Buster Keaton.

[B]

It's crazy. Yes. You're so right. I mean, I. Yeah. I find him like magnetic as a performer. You see a band of brothers.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right. A totally different character.

[A]

Yeah. When he's like the boot camp guy.

[B]

Yeah, that's a great show. I mean, he. Yeah, like all of them was haunted by the success of Friends. And I don't think we saw enough of David Schwimmer.

[A]

I think we saw the least of David Schwimmer in a way.

[B]

So the jealousy thing, I think is ugly. It's an ugly part of his character. But I think it is explainable by the very, very first thing we learn about him. When he comes into the cafe and he's like, hi. And it's because Carol's broken up with him. I'm glad they dropped that as like a catchphrase for Ross.

[A]

But sometimes throughout the series it kind of goes back to the. It's sort of rarely used, but so great when it comes that sort of low voiced, like his post Emily mental breakdown, sabbatical thing. We'll get to it later. But it's so funny.

[B]

It's really good. That's my favorite era of where it's.

[A]

Like he's eating candy floss while he's like sedated.

[B]

Sedated from his rage.

[A]

It's just even thinking about it makes me laugh. Just him sitting, eating candy floss.

[B]

Where did he get it? It's not explained. Where's it been?

[A]

Where did he get it? So good. But then the thing is, the insult to injury of it all is that like, you obsess over your gorgeous girlfriend who's excited about her new job and excited about her life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You obsess over her. You kind of using Mark as a way to surmise like a very childish thing which is like, what if mommy doesn't look at me anymore? Kind of thing. It's very infantile, really. Of like. Because actually his insecurities, they are partly to do with Mark, but they're partly to do with like, she's fascinated with something that he thinks is dumb.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is another big fault of his is that his worldview is very small.

[B]

Yes. Yes. It's weird with Ross because on the one hand he's kind of the most mature friend in that he's got a lot of the trappings of adulthood. Like he lives alone, he's been married, he's got a kid. But he is also the most, the least developed in some ways in terms of his like, adulthood mentally.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Emotional maturity.

[A]

It's fascinating, isn't it? I think we're going to do an episode that's all about just the families called It's All Relative.

[B]

Good friends with a lens through familial relations.

[A]

But there's something, I think, quite fascinating about, like, the Geller home, which I think we all feel like we know very well.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Just because we see Jack and Judy so much. And they're just like. I feel like they're my parents, friends.

[B]

Judy.

[A]

I feel like I've seen them in my own kitchen. And, like, the sort of framing of that whole family is that, like, Judy had Ross quite late. He was their miracle baby. They thought she was Baron. And the whole. They just, like, adore him. He's the miracle boy. And, like, that continues throughout their lives. And, like, it's played really well with him in Monica's dynamic and the whole. I love the trope as well that, like, Ross does a very good speech and everyone's obsessed with Ross making speeches because he can, like, summon gravitas. I think there's something really interesting about, like, a boy who is a total freak and complete nerd, but also his parents are obsessed with him. So he. That's why he's always punching. Because he has, like, an internal sense of, like, I'm actually incredible.

[B]

Yeah. But then that knocks up against the fact that he also suspects he's not and that he is gonna lose these people that he cares about. It's a kind of, like, weird tension within him that I think is very, like, fruitful for the character and very.

[A]

Common amongst people who choose academia.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I'm so sorry. I just lost a third of my listenership. A third of whom are working on their PhDs right now.

[B]

It would be unwise. I demure. I will not say anymore whether I disagree or agree.

[A]

I'm not saying everyone. I'm just saying I have met some people who. They were praised a lot as very young people for their sparkiness, their wit, their intelligence, their book smartishness or whatever. But that praise became addictive and became part of them. It kind of screwed with their minds. And then often when they sort of meet the real world and there's no structure for awards and praise and gold stars and high marks, it freaks them out because there's no, like, hierarchical authority for which they can both dump on others and other people can give them rewards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they were like, you know what? I'm gonna go back to school forever.

[B]

It is. It's a very common. It is a very common thing. And it's a fake. I think it could have happened to me. It didn't happen to me. And I'm glad that it didn't. But I was definitely one of those, like, I love school kids.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Yeah. And then I left university and I did find it hard. I was like, but why? Why is no one telling me that I did well? And putting a numerical value on that? Like, where am I supposed to go? And I think had I been able. Had I had just like money to spend on a Masters, it all could have gone so badly wrong. I might yet be like an expert in Henry James apostrophes or something like bullshit. And instead I'm here talking about Ross and Friends, which is so much better.

[A]

He works in a museum.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That he gets to talk at people all day about how things are supposed to be. I mean, I didn't actually rewatch it for this episode but like one of my favorite Rossisms is when we. When Joey starts working at the museum and he finds that Ross can't be his friend inside the museum because there's a hierarchical system which means that Joey.

[B]

Is lame at the museum.

[A]

Yeah, Joey is lame at the museum. I'm Rhonda. And these aren't real.

[B]

Having said, I said there were two foundational traumas for Ross, but actually I think there are three. And one of them is being a loser at high school. That I think because he's now top dog at the museum. Like he found a place, which is being a smart ass in an academic context where he was no longer a loser. And the things that made him lame then now make him cool. I don't want to cast any aspersions on academics in the real world about that. But it feels correct. It feels correct that that's what happened with him.

[A]

What do you think now that we're on sort of the major grievance against Rachel and we haven't actually gotten to the cheating part yet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is like. It is such good drama, the way that's paced that you think that like Mark is going to be this thing that's going to get in the way of Ross and Rachel. And actually the thing that gets away is the copy girl.

[B]

The copy girl.

[A]

A girl who like, is not really. I think she's seeded a little bit of like. Chandler and Joey are obsessed with the copy girl because she's sexy.

[B]

Yeah. Who kind of almost propositions them for a threesome which they kind of are up for.

[A]

Does that happen?

[B]

No, it doesn't happen. But they discuss Chandler and Chandler. Chandler, I don't know how to say. I've never known how to say his name in my accent.

[A]

What's your instinct?

[B]

Chandler. Which sounds so weird.

[A]

Who?

[B]

Chandler. Chandler. Chandler. So I'm gonna say Chandler. That also sounds right.

[A]

I would like you to be comfortable.

[B]

I don't know how to be comfortable saying his name. That's the problem. So I'll probably just scone and scone it all the way through.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Chandler and Joey discuss whether they would be up for having a threesome with the copy girl.

[A]

She's loose.

[B]

She's loose.

[A]

She's 90s loose. Which means she's got short hair and a belly ring.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And I remember seeing this episode in my teens and being quite sort of like the way I imagine that men who watch Baywatch must have sat there on their sofas like deathly still quite like. This is very harassing, but I don't know what to do with it.

[A]

I'm so glad you said this. I feel like I have so many of my early erotic thoughts. Happened to Friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it plays it quite close with innuendo and sex stuff in general. And a lot of it was over my head. Like, I remember the fight that Rachel and Monica have over condoms and who gets to use the last condom. I remember feeling so confused by that, really. As like an 8 year old. I was like, I don't understand. I don't know what a condom is, basically. But like Rachel and Ross, like, making out at the planetarium.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like rolling all over each other with that Chris Isaacs music playing.

[B]

Which is the sexiest song ever written. Right. By the way. It's so sexy.

[A]

I remember Gavin telling me on his first date that that was the one of the first songs that ever caused him emotional pain. Wow. I was like, why? He was like, because I remember watching the video and thinking how unfair it was that I would never get to do that. No, but you do. You remember those feelings that you would get when you were so small and you would watch. Kind of erotic that you couldn't process.

[B]

But I don't know what this feeling is. But my God, it's really hurting.

[A]

And I can't tell anyone about it. I know enough about myself to know I can't tell anyone.

[B]

Yeah, Yeah.

[A]

I felt that way about Ross and Rachel's first day at the planetarium. And then them waking up in the display and all the kids could see. Yes.

[B]

With all the cave. With the cavemen.

[A]

Right. That was a big one for me. And also Chandler getting stuck in the bathroom by Julia Roberts with the Underworld. I remember feeling very unusual about that.

[B]

Yeah. And getting that one where he gets Locked to Rachel's boss's coffee cabinet as well. I also. But I really fancied Chandler.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

At the time.

[A]

As did I.

[B]

And still do. I think when I watch it back, I'm like, yeah, you're attractive.

[A]

It's very funny with Chandler because I remember thinking all through my childhood like, he was the coolest person a person could possibly know and that they were all too mean to him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now I watch it, I'm like, this would be a nightmare to hang around with.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. It's like you have not processed one emotion in your whole life.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And that would be very difficult, just.

[A]

Trying to tell your friends a story about what happened to you at work, and someone just keeps cutting in, just quipping all the time. Like, we've all cut out somebody in our life like that.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, it's true. It's true. True. But at the time, I was like, wow, he's funny. I want to be funny too.

[A]

I wish I could be so funny. Gosh.

[B]

Who do you think is Who? What friend do you think you are actually in your deep hearts core?

[A]

Such a good question. I do think Phoebe, actually.

[B]

You think you're Phoebe?

[A]

I think over the years, definitely. I think, like, the. I think a lot through this podcast as well. Sort of. Sort of, like, being insistently sunny about things has become, like, a practice.

[B]

Interesting. So do you feel like you've developed from one friend to another? Were you another friend before?

[A]

I was another friend. I was. I was definitely a Chandler before. I was obsessed with being cynical and sarcastic and smarter than other people.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And. And had enough of an inkling for one liners that I could sort of get away with it. And I often remember getting accused in school of being mean.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of just, like, just being too mean.

[B]

Yeah, Zingers. Yeah, just zingers. Too close to the sun.

[A]

I often found myself in situations where I zing too close to the sun. And then I would feel so bad about it and so guilty. And then I think, you know, in the last sort of 10 years, it has been literally with this podcast. I think I just. A big part of doing it in the first place was that I was sick of my own self kind of thing. I swear, I just, like, liked it how it felt when I was positive about things. And now I have slowly just become someone who's kind of positive about things.

[B]

Well, that's beautiful.

[A]

What about you?

[B]

I think I was. I was a Chandler again, quite, like, consciously. I was like, well, I'm not the pretty girl. So I'm gonna be the funny girl. And now I. I look okay now. But believe me, as a teenager. Thank you. No, like, really, no one fancied me. And I knew that and accepted it and used to, like, genuinely sit down in my house and be like, what will it be like when I am a spinster and everyone else I know is married? Like, how will my life really. Making arrangements in my head for what this is gonna be like? But I was like, I can be funny. I'll be Chandler. But I think, in truth, I think I. I think I'm Ross.

[A]

And now we get to the heart of things. I'm Ross.

[B]

I think I.

[A]

The heart of the Ross apologist is herself a Ross.

[B]

Is myself a Ross? I too am like an insufferable, know it all who has a relatively disastrous romantic life. But I'm a lover girl, you know, that is who I am. And Ross is funny sometimes.

[A]

Yeah. There's parts of Ross that are really great. Maybe we should name them.

[B]

He believes in romance. He is a romance.

[A]

Oh, my God, he really does.

[B]

And it fails him again and again and again. And he gets back up.

[A]

Like, remember, you know when he falls in love with Emily and he has this huge night plan because even though they've only been together for two weeks, he's like, got this farewell, my big New York night plan. And then Rachel wants to get with Joshua so she plans like, a fake going away party for Emily. Which is funny because Emily hates her more than anyone. Or she will. And Ross is just so concerned that I've planned a night that is special for the girl I love and I think is amazing. He is. Actually. It's so interesting because I was thinking about all the romantic leads that they. Romance stories that each of the friends have had that aren't with another one of the major friends. Right. So, like, Richard, obviously.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Chandler and Kathy, which is like a big long buildup and then just goes away. And Jamis.

[B]

But that's.

[A]

That's more of like a comedy character than a real thing we're invested in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Joey doesn't really have that many.

[B]

No, they're all quite sort of transient. There was. Who's the Elle macpherson character?

[A]

Oh, yes. Janine.

[B]

Janine, Janine. There's her.

[A]

But, like, I feel like Ross has a lot of girlfriends who were made to care about Julie, Charlie, Mona, Carol. Mona.

[B]

Mona. Got a real sharp end of the stick. Who else is. Yeah, there's a student. There's Elizabeth. Is that her name? The Student, Elizabeth.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. He has a lot of. A lot of girlfriends. And it's because he really likes being in a relationship. Yeah, he really wants them all to work and they don't.

[A]

Yeah. Like when he gets the train to Poughkeepsie. Cause he's. Yeah, I really relate to that as well. I've never kept it casual in my entire life.

[B]

No, it's not an instinct that comes naturally to me either. I think it's like, oh, I like you. So when we have kids, will they get your hair and my eyes or, you know, we've met twice. Like, that is kind of my. And I put a lid on it. But Ross doesn't. Ross just throws himself in every time.

[A]

And you know what? That's really admirable, actually. It hurts so much.

[B]

And he never, ever gives up on love. Like, there's a scene episode where Phoebe finds out that Mike, the Paul Rudd sort of endgame guy, doesn't want to get married. And she comes this really great. Like, one of my favorite Ross moments. Just, like, for pure comedy, she comes around to his flat and it's like, what do you think about marriage? And he's like, so now you're coming to my house to make divorce jokes? Like. And she's like, no, I really want to know because Mike doesn't want to get married. And, you know, I need you to tell me that marriage is horrible. And he's like, oh, yeah, it's really bad. And she's like, that's not how you feel, is it? And he said, no, I think it's beautiful. I think it's like, you know, the purest expression of, like, commitment to another person. And. And this is a man who's had three failed marriages and it hasn't killed his spirit.

[A]

Wow, you're really talking me around.

[B]

I. Well, I'm not. I'm not his barrister. I'm very expensive.

[A]

But this is really. Is an often missed trait about this character is that he really does believe in love.

[B]

He loves too much.

[A]

More so than any of the other friends.

[B]

More so than any of the other friends. He held a candle for a woman for, like, 20 years.

[A]

Oh, my God. Can we talk about the prom video?

[B]

The prom video is so upsetting.

[A]

That's the most genius bit of writing ever. We still haven't spoken about the copy girl cheating.

[B]

But, you know, we will come back to that. But let's do it. Let's do the prom video. Because his face, when he sees that that guy has turned up to take the prom after All. And his little corsage, it just. It is heartbreaking. And that he never told her.

[A]

It's like, oh, just as writers, the idea that, like, you have done this big relationship, you've written it into a corner, you know, it's gonna be the thing of the season that they will break up and get back together and whatever it's like. But he's done something unforgivable, which is that he hounded this woman about her cheating on him. And then the second that they are quote, unquote, on a break, which I'm sure we'll get back to, he sleeps with somebody else. How could we possibly redeem him? Like, I would love to know how many ideas that went around before they got to this one, which is that they're watching a home video from 20 years ago. Rachel's been stood up. He goes upstairs and puts on his dad's tux, comes down the stairs, takes the flowers out of the vase in the hallway, and then watches her sail out the door.

[B]

The jock turns up and takes her anyway.

[A]

I love Jack and Judy in that as well. They're sole parents with camcorders. Yeah, early camcorders.

[B]

Early camcorders. That is. It is really, like crushing his face at that moment is so. Is very difficult to recall Elliot Gould.

[A]

Being like, rachel, it's your knight in shining armor. Oh, oh, it's so real. I don't know how they fucking did it with those camcorder, like, flashbacks or whatever. I know everyone feels horrible about them now because of the fat jokes about Monica that still are disgusting, but, like, it's so well observed. Just the angles that parents choose to get with their first camcorder. And it's 1981 or whatever.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. He's a lover boy. He's a lover boy. Well, let's do. Let's do the cheating. Not cheating thing. Let's just get that out the way. Nice and quick. I am firmly. It was unwise, but it was not outside of the boundaries of what would be normal. When someone says, we are on a.

[A]

Break that same night.

[B]

Unwise. Unwise, but not illegal. Not actually convictionable. And that's what we're here to discuss. When someone says, I think we should take a break, that is coward speak for, I want to break up, but I don't know how to stick the landing. I believe that strongly.

[A]

Who's had a marriage fail already knows that.

[B]

Knows that also.

[A]

I mean, I know I'm supposed to be the defense here, but I don't know which one you're the prosecution, I'm the prosecutor. I don't watch many legal shows. I think that's obvious. But I think something that is often left out of the evidence files here is that Ross rings Rachel up when he's in the club with the lads and Mark is already there. Now, Rachel behaves nobly and does nothing. But I can totally understand the context of. Like, I have been worried about this guy forever. He has been on my girlfriend's mind and in her mouth forever. Like, he's like, she's talking about Mark all the time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And now he's in her flat and we've just declared ourselves on a break. Or she's declared us on a break.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's fucking Mark. I'm heartbroken. And also this girl is hot and slutty and she kisses me and he's been drinking. He's been drinking.

[B]

He's been drinking.

[A]

Inhibitions are lowered.

[B]

Inhibitions are lowered. Also, this is something that is going to come up again. But it really stuck out to me that Chandler. Chan Cha. Chandler. I'm going to come up with a third way of saying it. Chandler was Chindler the artist formerly known as Jon Bing and Joey are often the people behind some of his worst choices. He takes it to the group chat and you are only as strong as the advice your group chat gives you. And they consistently give him pretty shitty advice. So he. After this whole thing with the copy girl, the next morning he goes to them and he says, I need to tell Rachel. And they say, no, you don't. And there's another one where. What is the. Oh, the list. When he makes the list about Julie.

[A]

That's Chanda's idea. That was next on my list of sins.

[B]

Yes, that's Chandler's idea.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then if you go back to the files, you can find. They should be. They're the co defendants. They aided and abetted many of Ross.

[A]

They really did. Wow.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, one should take responsibility for their own actions, of course. But he was led astray.

[A]

That's true. And all because Chandler had a new laptop, Right?

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

He just wanted to try.

[B]

He was blinded by an Excel spreadsheet. That's all it was.

[A]

So it gets back to Rachel through Gunther and so they are on a break.

[B]

They're on a break. They are on a break. They're on a break. Which means they are not together during the time they are on a break. Is it a nice thing that he did? Is this.

[A]

Do you not believe though that when Rachel said we need to Take a break. A break from us. That. She means that we need to pause this conversation for a few days.

[B]

No, and I don't think that. And I refer you to the record because that is how Ross originally interprets what she says.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

She goes, we need a break. And he goes, okay, let's go get an ice cream. Or like, let's. Whatever. And she's like, no. A break from us. That, that is.

[A]

She does clarify a break from us.

[B]

She clarifies it. She clarifies it. I'm not saying that I think what he did was good but I do think it is within. It's. It's. It's allowable.

[A]

Which brings us to another sin of his, which is the beach house episodes.

[B]

The beach house. Yes. Poor Bonnie. Poor Bonnie, Bonnie.

[A]

Poor Bonnie. Poor sexy, bald Bonnie.

[B]

Sexy, bald Bonnie. Whose only crime was having quite a lot of sex. It seems they just like talking about.

[A]

Sex being a bit hotter than Rachel.

[B]

Being a bit hotter than Rachel. Liking to go swimming. You know, Is this the charge? Liking a delicious swim. Poor Bonnie. Okay, so that. What's the charge there? State the charge.

[A]

He gets off with Rachel, immediately breaks up with Bonnie, which is good.

[B]

Yes, Admirable.

[A]

And then Rachel writes a very, very long 18 pages. Front and back.

[B]

Front and back.

[A]

And it's so funny where it's like he goes downstairs and tries to read it, falls asleep. You fell asleep.

[B]

You fell asleep. One of the best line deliveries in the entire series. You fell asleep.

[A]

And I think what it comes down to the next morning is that she goes to him and she goes.

[B]

So does it.

[A]

Does it.

[B]

So what he should obviously have done in that moment is said, I'm sorry I fell asleep due to it being 5:30 in the morning and I've just broken up with my girlfriend.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I need. I need some rest. And then I will read your letter. Thank you very much for writing it. You're so special. But. But why did she make him read the letter at 5:30 in the morning? 32 pages.

[A]

There's an interesting through line. Having been watching a lot of Friends recently. Interesting through line with Rachel is that.

[B]

36 pages that shows I can't do maths. It's embarrassing.

[A]

But there's this thing with Rachel that pops up every now and then which is that she wants to write and she's very bad at it.

[B]

I had not clocked that.

[A]

There's a whole thing, remember with Chandler's mum, who's a romance novelist where she tries to write a romance novel. She kind of has these little Attempts sometimes, and they never go well. So I get the sense that, like, reading Rachel Green's letter is, like, the worst substack ever. It's very self conscious.

[B]

I don't think anything takes 36 pages to say, to be honest. If it's basic, if it can be boiled down to does it, then you don't need 36 pages.

[A]

And then it is slowly revealed that what that means is that, you know, does it make sense for him essentially to take all responsibility for what happened during their breakup?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And that she cannot enter the relationship unless he takes responsibility for that, which I think is fair from her. What do you think?

[B]

Was it now? I can't remember. Is it that she has. That he has to take responsibility for everything that happened in the breakup, or is it that went wrong in the course of their relationship?

[A]

Ooh, unclear.

[B]

I can't remember because I would say that no one is fully responsible for the things that go wrong in a relationship. That is a slightly different question, your honor, But I. I can't remember which is which.

[A]

I think it's. I think what it comes back to is that, like, will you admit that you cheated and your cheating resulted in our breakup?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he tries to swallow this for as long as he can, and then they're in bed together, and she says, like, you know, my mom. But my mom said that once a cheater, always a cheater. But I knew that you just had to process and find time to, like, accept your responsibility. And now you have.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he says, we were on a break, and then they're over again. So this is the charge is the inability to man up and take responsibility.

[B]

Yeah, it. But I think the. The greater. The sort of umbrella charge here is the inability to cede any points on which he thinks he is right. And this gets him into trouble in all kinds of places in his life.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

With Phoebe, like, he's not very nice to Phoebe quite often because she's also.

[A]

On my list here is being mean to Phoebe.

[B]

He's like, I think that lizards run the universe. And he can't just be like, that's wrong. But I accept that. That's your view. He has to, like, prove that she's.

[A]

It's so interesting with Phoebe because it comes up again and again that, like, I think first it's like that she thinks her dead mother is in the cat.

[B]

Is in the cat.

[A]

And it's like, one of the most, like, intense, like, Toni Collette, dramatic line readings from Lisa Kudrow where she goes, ross, how Many parents have you lost.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like you can really feel both actors, like, really feeling that line. Him feeling it and her feeling it. And then she goes, well, you don't know how it feels like when one comes back and, like, it kind of cuts the tension. But for that moment, like, you're in a really good movie.

[B]

She's amazing as well.

[A]

I guess that's why they have this again and again with them where she has a mental conviction about something and he refutes it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're really good against each other because the characters don't like each other very much.

[B]

They don't have, like, anything in common, really, those two characters. But, yeah, the inability to be wrong even when it would be prudent and socially cohesive to just not fight the argument. And you know what could be more? I guess those. I don't know. What would you do if you really. If you really thought I did not up and I. I'm gonna spend the rest of my life with this woman. I don't want to begin on the premise of I'm the baddie. If you really think. You didn't. You did. You. You didn't act in the way that she's characterizing you to have acted. That's tough. That's not. Oh, Phoebe doesn't believe in evolution. That's, like, stupid and annoying. That's, like, this is foundational to him. He wants to be with her forever.

[A]

God. Yeah, you're. That. You're really right. It's such an interesting question because, like, if it were you and you really believe that you acted legally, although unwisely.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And then you had to shoulder to.

[B]

The letter of the law, if not the spirit of the law.

[A]

And then in order to, like, get back the girl of your dreams, the partner of your dreams you had to just simply accept responsibility and also accept however long this remains a topic of conversation for and that it will be written into the lore of your relationship and maybe even something you tell your kids one day.

[B]

I would. You do know, I don't know that I could do it because.

[A]

Does beginning your relationship again from a place of deceit simply sow more opportunities for deceit?

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And he does want to be honest.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He always has the instinct to be honest. And it is often curbed by, for instance, Joey and Chandler. But he. He wants to tell the truth. Even if that truth gets him into trouble? A lot of the time.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Except the time he pretends to be British at the museum. I don't Know what? I can't remember what was happening there. Was that part of his grander breakdown narrative?

[A]

Can't quite recall.

[B]

I can't remember where it came in. The.

[A]

He's a tour guide.

[B]

No, Joey, he's doing, like, locum teaching at nyu. So it's before. He's like, oh, yes, in the. In the school. And he's there being, like, the Metazoic era at a very, you know, doing a real, like, Dick Van Dyke accent. But I can't remember why. He's just.

[A]

He was just nervous.

[B]

Just nervous. Who? Who amongst us?

[A]

I get it.

[B]

You know, I've been pretending to be British my whole life.

[A]

Did I talk too much? Just let it go. Take a breath. You're not alone. Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals. Get matched with a therapist online based on your unique needs. And get help with everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions.

[B]

Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy. And let life feel better.

[A]

Time. It's always vanishing. The commute, the errands, the work functions, the meetings. Selling your car. Unless. Do you sell your car with Carvana? Get a real offer in minutes. Get it picked up from your door. Get paid on the spot so fast you'll wonder what the catch is. There isn't one. We just respect you and your time. Oh, you're still here. Move along now. Enjoy your day. Sell your car today, Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. Do you feel like we've tied up Ross and Rachel in terms of the you were on a break thing?

[B]

I. I'm. There's no doubt in my mind, really, on that one. It is. I think it's. I think. I think he didn't deserve to be raped over the coals for as long as he was. And I understand why he wouldn't accept what he believed to be an untruth. Yeah.

[A]

And then the next time they get together is over the video. The problem video, which we've already mentioned.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then do they break up again?

[B]

They're always bloody. I mean, the hoops the writers jump through to keep them apart. It's a real feat of choreography, really.

[A]

And what's interesting is that they are their most charming when they're not together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like when they get drunk in Vegas and they get married.

[B]

Hello, Mr. Ross. Or Mrs. Mrs. Ross. Hello, Mr. Rachel. That's it.

[A]

Them. Just, like, having a good time in the hotel room, getting pissed.

[B]

It's the most charming they ever are as an enslavement. It's so true. It's so, so true. Well, okay, so then that comes around the time when he's having his breakdown. Well, that's the end of his breakdown. Or the sort of annulment of it all is at the end of his kind of chaos era.

[A]

Yes. So let's. Let's get into Emily years. Yeah.

[B]

I hate Emily. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say that right up top.

[A]

You hate her. Even though I know that you know that. That actress who got hate for years.

[B]

And people were spitting at her on the street.

[A]

Street.

[B]

And even so, I. Well, I wish her well.

[A]

What's your relationship to Cold Feet?

[B]

None.

[A]

Never seen it. No idea what it is. That's her show, I think. I think the whole thing was that Cold Feet was the sort of British Friends and it was sort of almost quasi stud casting.

[B]

I had no idea. Yeah, I've never seen it. I just think. I mean, the actress. I'm sure she's lovely, but the.

[A]

There's something so strangely unconvincing about her. She does feel like an American accent.

[B]

It feels like a fake accent and I think it is. We were texting about this before, and you're so right. I think it's that they gave her British dialogue. So even when she's using her normal accent, the fact that she's choosing all these, like, words that Americans think that English people use all the time.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

It feels uncanny.

[A]

Where Ross plays rugby with her friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they.

[B]

Here are my mates. What?

[A]

Here are my mates. I know these lads really well.

[B]

And they call one of them Devon. What English man is called Devon?

[A]

That's crazy. That's crazy. They were mismatched friends for her to have.

[B]

They were.

[A]

Those are not her friends.

[B]

Made no sense.

[A]

Those are not her friends.

[B]

So, yeah, she felt very much like a British person written by an American.

[A]

I will say that while we're on Emily, I do think her family are one of the most well observed British.

[B]

Families ever captured by Joanna Lumley. And who is that?

[A]

Tom Conti.

[B]

He. They are so funny.

[A]

I'm obsessed with them. They're like.

[B]

The casual hatred of each other is so, like.

[A]

It's so British. It's so British. And when Ross is like, where's Emily? And Tom Conti's like, she's in hiding.

[B]

She's in hiding.

[A]

Me and Dali have just been voicing on each other that for weeks. She's in hiding. You've humiliated her. Waltham Interiors.

[B]

Hello, Waltham Interiors. I don't hang up on you. Now you're boring me. Why the radio?

[A]

I think every episode of this series will mention Waltham Interiors. Her friends are incongruous. Her family are perfect.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But in terms of Emily's effect on Ross.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So sort of perfect for him in the sense of like it's so him and someone like that to have a sort of mousy British girlfriend.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Who's a bit funny on her own turf when she's comfortable, but kind of awkward when she oxidizes with Americans.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And she always has to clarify when she's joking. No one really gets her in a way that feels quite real actually.

[B]

Yeah. That is what it would be like. That is what it would be like. I think. Again, lover boy. He proposes after six weeks. They spend the whole of their first date in Vermont on like a two day retreat. He's like, this is it, this is the real deal. Because he always thinks it's the real deal.

[A]

Yeah. He always thinks it's the racist. It's very Mark from peep show. She's the one. She's the one. Jeremy.

[B]

But then surely one of the great. Yeah, one of the greatest. Not to do your job for you prosecution. But surely one of the great charges is. That is the name at the wedding. Which is bad. Obviously that's bad. My client enters a guilty plea.

[A]

Also one of the greatest moments of TV of all time.

[B]

Amazing, amazing television. He obviously was still in love with Rachel. So that's why he said it. And. But I don't know whether you can fault someone for still being in love with the woman who's rejected him a whole bunch of times also when you.

[A]

Really don't know that woman very well.

[B]

Yeah, it's very, you know, it's only been six weeks. Weeks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know the. It is. Have you ever done it? Have you ever called a new partner by the old partners?

[A]

No, I, I have. I remember many, many boyfriends ago. Buying a boyfriend for a big. A jumbo pack of, you know those chocolates. Reasons, you know the dark chocolate. Buying him a big pack of that at the airport because I was like cuz you love these. And he was like I don't love these. And then I had that realization of.

[B]

Being like, oh, the other one.

[A]

The other guy loved these.

[B]

He loved them. I have done the name thing. I did it three times in a single wedding weekend. No, it was really, really bad. It was all. It was like it stopped being funny.

[A]

Not with the current boyfriend.

[B]

No. This is again several boyfriends ago back in the stands of but it was because it was the first time I'd ever seen the ex boyfriend and the current boyfriend in the same room. And I just. It was short circuiting my brain. But I did it once and I was like, oh, Jesus, I'm really sorry. Then a second time, everyone was quite like, you've got to stop doing that. And then it happened a third time.

[A]

Oh, that's really bad.

[B]

It was really bad. So all I'm saying is I do understand how the wires can get crossed. He'd just seen her. She turned up unexpectedly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He said the wrong name. The way that she behaves thereafter, Emily.

[A]

Do you think bad the demands that.

[B]

She was placing on him?

[A]

Oh, come on. Come now. Come now.

[B]

She wanted him to move apartments, to sell all of his furniture, never see her ever again.

[A]

Well, okay, no. First of all, she said, I would like you to move to London. Which I think, you know, when you have a.

[B]

But then.

[A]

Two. Two. Yeah. Right. So you have two partners who live in different countries. It's fair to have a conversation. Which of these countries shall we live in?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then he says, but, Ben. And then she goes, fair enough. But, Ben, I will move to New York. However, I don't see how I can make this marriage work if you're still gonna be best friends with the woman whose name you said at the wedding and who you were gonna get on a plane to Greece with.

[B]

That was also quite bad. Yes, yes, yes. I think the plane to Greece is worse, in fact, than the name because it compounds the issue. But why am I so defensive about this? I don't know. I think. I really don't like. I really don't like Emily. And I think she was making unreasonable. I think what it is is that Ross really tried. And even when everything looked so bad for him and she was moving him to an apartment like an hour away from his work he was being like, I can read so much on the commute. I've been given the gift of time. So I was like, wow, you really, like. You're really trying to see this as anything other than like a major downgrading in your whole life situation which is that you cannot hang out with your friends and you have to commute really, really far to your work. But he's like, no, I get. I get. I get the girl. I get my wife. I'm not getting divorced again.

[A]

Oh, it's very sad. It begins from a place of reasonableness and gets crazy.

[B]

I think it does get crazy. I think maybe I've just known too many Demanding British women. And I. And I hold short triplets.

[A]

Take them down.

[B]

Yes. That is. Yeah, I think that the name is. The name is bad, but I do. It's a momentary lapse.

[A]

What do you think was going on in that character's head when he said, yes, I will take Rachel to Greece with me on my honeymoon? Do you think he was like, earnestly, oh, my friend will comfort me in my time of need.

[B]

It was extremely ill advised. Because if he thought, I am going to make this up with my. Maybe. Maybe did not turn up to the airport. And therefore he's like, okay, this is devastating. My marriage is over.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And therefore.

[A]

And then Rachel says, well, you should go anyway. Take a. Take a minute, get some air. Get some distance from the whole situation. Which I think is good advice.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. And then she's like, I'll come. And he's deluding himself that they are friends and not something more. It's.

[A]

It's. It's really well played because it's like both of them have both done. They're saying the right things, which is that one, we're friends. I will keep you company during this time of need. But they both have that glimmer in their eye of like, but maybe we'll grease and maybe everything will be perfect.

[B]

Exactly. Exactly. Oh, and then she turns up and.

[A]

Runs away and leaves her poor little face. Her horrified face.

[B]

You would be. That's horrified. That's a tough one.

[A]

She's in hiding.

[B]

She's in hiding. Humiliated her.

[A]

My next charge, more of a general one that goes throughout the series.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Bad father.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I actually don't even believe in this one. But.

[B]

No, I. But this is a charge that gets leveled against Ross, which I think is unfair and is a result of the writers becoming bored of Ben, which is so fair. Fair enough. Who wants to play?

[A]

Children are boring on screen.

[B]

Like kids say the darndest things. Like, that's not what Friends was ever supp. Supposed to be. It's not something that they did like that well. So fine, leave Ben out. I. I just assumed he was seeing Ben and we're just not getting those episodes because we're not seeing every moment of.

[A]

Yeah, right. He's seeing Ben.

[B]

He's seeing Ben. I think it's totally fine. And also, Ben's with his mums as well. He's not like wandering the streets, you know, he's like, he's perfectly well taken care of. He's. I season.

[A]

Dresses up at Santa every year.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

It's such a nice image. To think about.

[B]

I don't think there's. I don't think he's a bad father. I refute that charge strongly. He's a great dad to Emma. When they can be bothered to include Emma in the casting, it's like they just cannot be fucked.

[A]

They can't be bothered. I really respect how badly they can't be fucked.

[B]

Yeah. They're just like, oh, Emma's with my parents. Yeah, yeah, great. She can stay there as far as I'm concerned.

[A]

There's a real limit of child storylines that you can.

[B]

Yeah, it gets boring.

[A]

What are the big Ben storylines?

[B]

The Ben storylines.

[A]

When he wants to play with the Barbie.

[B]

When he wants to play with the Barbie.

[A]

And Ross freaks out. That is bad parenting.

[B]

But. But again, this is from a foundational trauma. This is another foundational trauma, which is that Jack Geller, for all his wonderful qualities, did used to shit on Ross for having girly interests as a child, for dressing up as a woman, for playing with dolls instead of being good at sports. So I think it's an. That that expresses itself most often in Ross's desire to defend his masculinity at all costs, even to the point of the ridiculous. Like playing that rugby game.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But it also has a little spurt of. What do I mean? Some pressure gets released on that with Ben and the Barbie. And he's like, okay, well, you. You can't be a girly girl because look where it ended up putting me with my dad. Like, I'm gonna try and Course. Correct. Even though that's obviously the whole problem. It's trying to anyway, Right.

[A]

This is like one of the most upsetting things about parenting. Right? Is that like, yeah. People try and protect their children from the world and all they're doing is harming the child with themselves.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It's so upsetting. Like, you get this all the time with people who are parenting, like gay or trans kids, where they're like, oh, I'm just so worried about how the world will treat them. It's like, just. Just worry about how you're treating them. Just worry about this energy that you're bringing to this, you know? But I get it because you know so much about the world.

[B]

You're like, I don't want you to go out there all sort of soft and gentle and people talk stamp on you, right? So there's Ben. So there's Ben and the Barbie. There is Ben learning pranks from Rachel.

[A]

Oh, I forgot about that. What's that again?

[B]

Rachel teaches him some Annoying pranks. And he.

[A]

Oh, and Ross hates pranks.

[B]

Hates pranks.

[A]

I hate pranks.

[B]

Yeah, same. I don't. That's an expression of love to me. You know when you see those couples on TikTok, it's like we prank each other. I'm like, seek help. That is so bad and horrible that you've created this like, hostile environment in your own home where someone might smash an egg on your head while you're sleeping. Like, why you want that for yourselves?

[A]

Have you ever played a prank though, as a child? I've played one good prank.

[B]

What was your one good prank?

[A]

To make this as succinct as possible, I was on the phone to a friend who we were talking about this guy we both knew and we were sort of being silly about like, it was Covid as well. We're being silly about, like, whether we jack him. And then he was like doing a delivery job at the time and he ended up delivering something to her house while we were on the phone. Now we had, by that point we had moved on in the conversation quite a lot. And so when she, when he dropped off the thing, she was like, God, imagine if he heard what we were talking about earlier. And I was like, that'd be hilarious if you heard that.

[B]

Hahaha.

[A]

And then what I did was I went to his Instagram stories and I screen grabbed his Instagram stories. And then using the Instagram create tool, I wrote like a thing being like, oh my God, it's kind of despicable the way people talk about me on my delivery jar. And then I was like messaging her and said, is this about you?

[B]

And then she, oh my God, that is good. That is good. I mean, like I said, I don't know, I've. I've fallen out of pranks, I think. I mean, the only. It's not even really a prank. It's just a really annoying bit that I thought was funny for a while. I used to call up my friends, like quite a while after the event and be like, hey, have you heard? And they'd be like, what? And I'd be like, the queen died. And for some reason I thought this was hilarious and people got really annoyed, didn't it? You know, it's like August 2024 and I'm calling people up because of the green time. So yeah, there's the prank one. Well, there's the Holiday Armadillo, which is the key Ben moment. Maybe of all the Ben moments.

[A]

Yes. I mean, you can't not love the Holiday Armadillo.

[B]

I love the holiday. It's such a sweet and strange thing to do. And it's such an elaborate costume as well. He doesn't.

[A]

It's really complex.

[B]

Yeah, I think, I think he's a good dad, but I want him to be my dad. Not necessarily.

[A]

And he's so excited when he's like, I have Ben for the holidays. I'm gonna teach him about Hanuk.

[B]

So sweet. Oh, and then he. There's the Emma storyline where he sings I like big butts to the baby.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And then she has her first laugh.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then he's like, I'm a horrible father. I've been singing about like objectifying women to this like infant girl.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

That's just funny.

[A]

That's just a bit of fun.

[B]

That's fine.

[A]

Bit of fun.

[B]

Bit of fun.

[A]

You know what? I also a moment to Ross credit when he makes the effort to try and include Mike.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they have their horrible friend date that goes so badly. There's something so recognizable about that.

[B]

Yeah. Oh my God. Men do not know how to have one on one pints in general. Like unless they already know each other.

[A]

But like to have one even make the effort.

[B]

I know, it's so unusual.

[A]

It's so. And they both think it's so strange. And he like traps him in the. It's one of the best episodes.

[B]

Yeah. It's so good.

[A]

Like, you're so right. Like his endless capacity for both love and hope for the future is so endearing. Like the leather pants where he's like leather pants.

[B]

Also like the thing about Ross is that he. The thing with the leather pants reminds me of this and also the fact that he got an earring when he was with Emily. I think something about Ross is that he, he's having throughout the series a kind of like premature midlife crisis. All of the time he's trying to reinvent himself. He's like gets the sports car, he gets the earring, he gets the whatever we were just talking about there.

[A]

Leather pants.

[B]

The leather pants. The leather pants. It's like he's constantly in a kind of crisis of himself and I think that's very real. Who, you know, find a 30 year old that is not doing a bit of crisis about who they are. And I think that's, it's, it's just real to me.

[A]

There's something, something about him as well. He feels like kind of out in the wilds a bit because the other friends have like Rachel and Monica for the bulk of the season. Are in that flat. Right in. In the grandma flat.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The boys are across the hall. And I don't know, Phoebe feels in it somehow. She feels like. Because she's self employed, I think.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She feels like she's always mooching around the others. Like she's always hanging around with Joey when he's unemployed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hanging around the girl's apartment. There's something about Ross that feels sort of separate and away.

[B]

Yeah. He's got his own place. And then when he moves in with the guys, he's kind of intolerable because he's so used to living on his own.

[A]

And then there's a bit where he says to the guys because he has the. Like, yeah, he's annoying. And he has put them on the answering machine and all that. And he says, I know I can be annoying.

[B]

I know.

[A]

Something so heartbreaking about someone who says they know they can be annoying.

[B]

I know. I know. And there's like, the moment that really gets me from that little arc is where they, Joey and Chandler take him to a viewing of, like, a really shitty apartment because they want him to move out. And he realizes he knows that they want him to leave. And instead of being like, you guys, like, I just got, like, my marriage for the. He just goes, I see what you're saying. I'm gonna go downstairs and fill out an application. And I'm just like, oh, my God.

[A]

That is so painful. Yeah, so painful. The next charge I have leveled at Ross Geller is his rage.

[B]

The rage.

[A]

I'm impressed by how early the rage is seeded.

[B]

The rage comes in very early. When is Red Ross?

[A]

Red Ross is during the rugby episode.

[B]

That's during the rugby episode.

[A]

But I feel even before then, we've seen him be intolerant and snippy. Like he. Like he. Throughout.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's interesting because, like, one of the criticisms that's leveled at many sitcoms, and in particularly this one, is the idea that, like, you have these characters who you love because they're rounded and then they have certain foibles that become, you know, touchstones for the audience. And then the. As the series goes on, we dial up those foibles to the point where there are caricatures. So Monica being, like, very shrill and neurotic or Joy being stupid. I feel like the way in which that his foibles are dialed up. It's like they're dialed up in a sitcom way. But the world interacts with them the way that you would with a normal person, which is that you would get fired from your job and put in therapy. Entranced.

[B]

I. The thing with the sandwich, I think is.

[A]

Is so good.

[B]

So funny also. And again, I have to say, led astray. Who wrote that note? Phoebe wrote the note.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He didn't write that angry note.

[A]

So easily led astray.

[B]

So easily led astray.

[A]

Keep your mitts off my grub.

[B]

Keep your mitts off my grub. And then. Well, look, I think I love. I love that whole part of Ross's story because he is just a mess. He is a proper mess. He is getting enraged at his boss over a sandwich and having to be tranquilized at work.

[A]

Yeah. One of the few times where they cut to sort of like exterior footage.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which is the pigeons fleeing the park as he screams, my sandwich.

[B]

My sandwich. Yeah. The rage is interesting.

[A]

He does again, sorry to bring it back up again when he's eating the candy flower, like, on account of my rage.

[B]

On account of my rage. Oh, I think, you know, he's. He's got anger issues, but he gets a handle on them. He accepts that he has rage.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That he's not doing great. Give me some tranquilizers. I'll take some time off work. That all sounds good. He doesn't resist the criticism too much. He accepts that he has this issue and that it has gone too far.

[A]

Yeah. It's so interesting that he, of all the character foibles, his is the only one that has to have real world consequences.

[B]

Yeah. The only one who has to leads like, therapeutic involvement is the fact that he sometimes gets real mad about.

[A]

It's so funny. It's so funny as well that it, like this whole thing with him being on sabbatical. I'm unsybatical. I can't remember how long it goes on for. I think probably half a season. And the sort of arc is then tied up because he goes on a date with Janice.

[B]

Oh, yes.

[A]

And then she breaks up with him with a line that I think I say at least once a week, which is, Ross, the sun has set on our day in the sun. Because she's doing his head. He's doing her head in. And he has this sort of like, come to Jesus moment because he realizes, like, I'm doing your head in.

[B]

Yeah. I'm too much for you. The worst person on earth. Yeah.

[A]

It's such a funny thing to have someone's mental illness resolved by having someone more annoying than them.

[B]

Yeah. Be like, oh, wow, okay, this has gone too far. Like, I'm worse than you now.

[A]

So good.

[B]

So Good.

[A]

I don't even know why I charged him with rage.

[B]

I guess I think, well, it's a reasonable. But then, you know, we've all got our. We've all got our problems. All got our problems, you know.

[A]

What do you think are your character faults? That if you were on a sitcom, they would be such a good question.

[B]

What would it be? I think actually part of it would be. And I really resist it. But I used to not. I think, before I knew any better. I'm a. I'm a pedant. I'm really. When someone's using a word wrong, something in me is like, tell them, tell them, tell them. Tell them no. Tell them no. And I used to think that was useful for people and fun. Yeah. And now I very rarely do it.

[A]

How do you think that would look? Imogen season one versus Imogen season ten?

[B]

I think I would by season. Season one, I'm correcting people on their grammar and laughing at them for mispronouncing words. And by the end, I have married someone from a completely different country and I have to learn their language. And I'm stupid in their language.

[A]

Oh, that's really good.

[B]

That would definitely be one of my annoying things that they'd have to resolve for me. What would yours be?

[A]

Mine would be being useless.

[B]

Being useless.

[A]

Being fucking useless. Having no, like, skills or like. Like just being a bit, sort of like. Like everything is a bit wrong.

[B]

Is it? Like what, like fixing stuff.

[A]

Like, what are we doing? Can't drive.

[B]

Oh, can't.

[A]

Don't. Like, don't really know left from right very well. Can't count very well.

[B]

Like, can't. Like, I can't do that.

[A]

Like, I like so somebody who has, like, bedded down in the things that they are good at. And I've. I've done my 100,000 hours of talking.

[B]

Into this microphone that you can't drive.

[A]

But I can't. I can't. Like, I can't.

[B]

Have you tried?

[A]

Yeah, a lot.

[B]

How much? Because I failed six times and now I have a license.

[A]

I've never gotten to test level.

[B]

Actually, I do sympathize. I was also a horrible driver.

[A]

And I also can't play, like, any sport. Like, I paid for quite expensive tennis lessons and like, I still. I don't think I could really. I just said so many things. I just seem to. I can't do.

[B]

Is it that you. But is the failing that you can't do them or that you cannot make yourself persevere with things that you believe yourself to Be bad at in that way.

[A]

It's that. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, that's a thing.

[A]

Yeah, that's a thing. Yeah.

[B]

And then what's the arc?

[A]

That's fine.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

A card. So season one is just like being a bit sort of spazzy with my limbs sort of thing. Just being sort of always dropping and dropping things and inaccurate assumptions and sort of like not. No attention to detail, I guess. Season 10. I'm not sure how that manifests, but it's terrible. Season 10 in a major car accident that kills three people.

[B]

Yeah. Wow. So you actually do fuck up really bad, and then you have to, what, reckon with the fact that you were useless.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You actually were useless when it was.

[A]

Like, something where, like, I. I make a sort of a silly mistake that if I simply owned up to it, it would be fine. But then it ends up being yourself in cataclysmically. Like, it's like, oh, at any point you could put your hand up and saying, this has gotten away from me. But you didn't.

[B]

It would be. This is so dark. You are. You do finally pass your driving test. You're really proud of yourself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're driving down a country road late at night to make a train, and you hit someone and you decide in that moment to drive on. And then you go to prison because they catch you.

[A]

Yours is like an American sitcom with 35 episodes a season. And mine is like a UK channel for 90s sitcom with 10 episodes a season and three seasons.

[B]

Yeah. You can tell. I've been watching so much House. That's the kind of thing that would happen on House.

[A]

The show ends, I just keep driving. That's very cathartic, actually. I invite everybody listening to.

[B]

Yeah. To think about what their. Their character arc is. Yours is horrible. Mine ends up I'm married to, like, a hot foreigner. And you, you're in prison.

[A]

What do we have left on the list for Ross?

[B]

Yeah. What else? Hit him. Hit him at me.

[A]

Dating a student.

[B]

That's bad.

[A]

Now, I will confess. These are the episodes I forgot to rewatch when I was doing my rewatch.

[B]

I rewatched a couple of these because I think it's really funny when he shows up on that spring break TV program because he gets so jealous and goes on spring break with his student girlfriend. I think this is more like a kind of like, Ross as farce. Like, at the point they start to just kind of make him do. Stupid man.

[A]

It doesn't feel grounded, does it?

[B]

No, it doesn't feel like something he would actually.

[A]

Doesn't feel of Ross.

[B]

No, it doesn't feel of Ross. You're right, it's not of Ross. It's obviously bad. He should not be dating his student. But it. I think the fact that it happens is tied also to this thing of, like, he's a loser nerd and now suddenly a student wants to have sex with him. The teacher. Like, how could he turn it down? That makes him cool and young and he's not young and he's not cool. So you can see how he fell into the trap of dating the student, which makes it sound like I'm excusing men for dating their students, which I'm not. I just like Ross.

[A]

I feel like he's with her for ages as well.

[B]

Yeah, it drags on a bit. That's.

[A]

And all that.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Of course I've got jealous about Mark. I got dating a student, being mean to Phoebe, rejecting lesbianism, which I feel we've covered. The homophobia, I do think falls under the category of, like, it was a different time. It was a different time.

[B]

Yes. And let us not forget, actually, while we're on this, he walks Carol down the aisle. So lovely that for all his pain and to be fair, like, these people, whatever their gender. Yeah, his. You know, the mother of his child was trying to give his kid the name of her new partner instead of him. Like, that is actually pretty deep.

[A]

That is pretty deep. I do understand that. We actually, when we did our Weddings episode with Kate Young, we had a lot of conversations.

[B]

Oh, really?

[A]

About. About what? You know, what Susan's rights are to Ben, which are, at that time. Nothing.

[B]

Nothing.

[A]

So you can so see why their dynamic is what it is. Because, like, that is his mum. Like, Susan's his mum in the same way Carol's his mum. And Ross could take away those rights at any time if he wants to.

[B]

It is true. It is true.

[A]

And he never does, nor does he threaten to.

[B]

No, he doesn't. And he walks. He walks at any other. I think that's so sweet. I think that's sweet.

[A]

It's really nice. And it does kind of wrap up the whole his homophobia thing.

[B]

Well, there's this about just him being rejected. Yeah.

[A]

And I think it's. So much of it as well is about how Monica and Ross come from the most stable, just, you know, suburban, well off. Like, their parents are zany, but they're very in love and there is money and it's great. And they want to replicate that.

[B]

Yeah. And that's so true. They both do.

[A]

Yeah. And. And neither of them quite manage it in the way that they pictured.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, first of all, that Ross has all the divorces. Second of all that Monica can conceive in the way she thought she could. Wanted to. And you know, it's quite. There's something a bit tragic about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But tragic in the way that everyday lives are tragic. And we all think that we're going to replicate some fundamental part of our childhood that for various reasons can. Can't happen or doesn't exist anymore.

[B]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. That feels like that's. That's a story. I know. Well from life, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

People think they want one thing and they can't have it and then they have to be like, okay, well now what?

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You see it all the time where like, you know, I've got so many friends who grew up in you know, very nice middle class homes with sort of tennis lessons, etc. And a dad who worked and a mom who stayed at home. And like economically that is impossible for anyone.

[B]

No. Yeah. But yeah, they sort of continue to labor under the illusion of like, well, if I don't have that then I didn't do it. Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That doesn't. That's not real anymore.

[A]

It's not real anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The thing about the thing about like all the boomers getting all the houses. That only works once.

[B]

Yeah. Then the houses, there are no houses so they've got a kick it. And no one wants their parents to die.

[A]

Yeah. And they keep living longer and longer.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

God love them forever and good luck to them, I think. Okay, I have one last thing on the list. I mean the list is also the list which is we've talked about already.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which the most damning thing on that list is she's just a waitress. Also chubby ankles, which is hard.

[B]

I have chubby ankles.

[A]

I have chubby ankles.

[B]

Really to heart. When I first watched that I was like, right, everyone's noticed about ankles and that they chubby. I'm rude. It's fucking over for me and my ankles.

[A]

I think everyone in the UK and Ireland has poor ankle definition.

[B]

I. Well, I hope that's true because I have always thought of it as something that I suffer with uniquely and that I have to hide from the world.

[A]

Anyone who comes from any kind of sort of Celtic stock, Anglo Saxon stock. No, I'm with you, girl. Look, I feel like anyone who comes from this kind of white, either Celtic or Anglo Saxon Europe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We have live on legs that were built to flee.

[B]

We need to be ready to take.

[A]

To the hills with our babies on our backs. And we can't keep blaming our poor, stocky little legs on that.

[B]

No, that's true. I mean, they're fine. No, I don't hate them. But. But the chunk. The chunky ankle. Also Jennifer Aniston. Fat ankles. Maybe that's why the thing is.

[A]

Because it's so the joke's on us, Right? Because the whole thing is that that's. It's impossible to even define that or see that on screen.

[B]

Wait, wait, that hadn't even occurred to me. They wrote that because that's a stupid insecurity to have.

[A]

Yes. That we just imbibed for free.

[B]

Whoa.

[A]

I know. We just didn't. I've been looking down at my fucking feet my whole life, thinking, chubby ankles. Because they invented it. Because it's such a comedic silly thing to write about the most beautiful girl in the world who at this point is already like a global megastar and the breakout star of the show. The idea that they would say she has chubby ankles, all internalized. Oh, it's a bit like the Brita Jones thing of her being, like nine stone two, fat as a fool or whatever.

[B]

And everyone's like, the joke is, she's thin. What I eat for the next 10 years. This one line, this weight of a child.

[A]

My God, they didn't have much anyway.

[B]

Yes, the list. The list is. The list is bad. Once again, who made. Who's added to this list?

[A]

Absolutely. Oh, the last thing I added to the list, which I must have just been a bit cranky last night when he makes Joey write a screenplay and he puts Joey in weird prison for a while.

[B]

Yes. I think he thinks he's helping by getting Joey to do something that would be fun and easy for Ross. Writing.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And is not Joey's forte. And he is trying. He's basically doing, like, setting, homework. He's applying his job to his friends.

[A]

A handsome man enters. So good. I'm basically out of reasons to hate Roz. I love Roz. You love Roz.

[B]

Good. Case closed.

[A]

Do we have anything further to say before we have a bit of dinner?

[B]

His hair was never that bad either. The hair, it's not great, but it's not. It's no worse than lots of hair in the 90s.

[A]

Think when there are two other men in the show with basically normal hair of a normal consistency and his is otter slick all the time.

[B]

I don't know why they did it. I'd love to know. But One thing people always accuse him is of having a wet head. It's actually not wet, it's crunchy.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's actually if anything too dry. And that's all I have to say.

[A]

Why? Like, at what point did they, like, obviously in the styling, they decided that was going to be the look or whatever.

[B]

Or maybe was it a look at the time? Were people doing that?

[A]

The wet head.

[B]

The wet head.

[A]

I mean, gel was a big part of men's upkeep for a while. And then I suppose it must be how what was quite a normal hairstyle hit the studio lights. It feels reflective.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I guess that was just the hair he walked in with as an.

[B]

Actor and they realized that it was taking on a high sheen.

[A]

Right. Whereas Matthew Perry's hair at the time.

[B]

Kind of like floppy, sort of downy a bit.

[A]

It feels like it's sort of slightly thin but like wavy.

[B]

Yeah. Joey's hair had a terrible hair at the beginning. What did they. He had a sort of almost a bowl cut.

[A]

Almost a bowl cut? Yeah. And it's very thick and black and just sort of there's nothing in it.

[B]

Like a mop head.

[A]

Yeah. And so Ross started with the wet head and then it became like a trope of the show.

[B]

I guess so. I guess so.

[A]

Interesting. Well, Ross, we love you.

[B]

We love you, Ross.

[A]

Imogen West Nights. Where can we find you?

[B]

You can find me when I want to be found. You can find me in the FT Weekend magazine. That's the place I opt out.

[A]

Which is low key. The best online supplement.

[B]

It's my favourite one. I agree. I love it. I think it's great. And it's not just because I'm often published.

[A]

It's. First of all, the FT has the best writing in any supplement of anyone.

[B]

I think they're great.

[A]

They're really good. Second of all, I love how everyone in how to Spend it is so crazy wealthy and not apologizing for it.

[B]

No.

[A]

Like my favorite line in all of modern journalism, particularly a kind of beauty journalism and sort of luxury goods journalism, is when a woman who owns two houses says something like, at 27 pounds.

[B]

A pop, this eyeliner always a pop a pop.

[A]

This eyeliner is eye wateringly stunning. Spinny, but. But worth it, I assure you. It's like, don't pretend to me that 27 pounds a pup is too much for you.

[B]

It's too much for you.

[A]

Bring me to the ft where like Graydon Carter is telling me about his like 55 grand money clip or whatever.

[B]

There is something really bracing about it. It's like, okay, you like a rich, rich.

[A]

Yeah, that's okay. We're in your Berlin home, which is one of your many homes, learning how to spend it.

[B]

Yeah, it's really funny. I don't.

[A]

This is just an ad for the ft, really.

[B]

I love the FT because I don't know. I don't know how to spend it. So I'm in the other bit where I'm doing.

[A]

We gotta learn how to get first. Anyway, thank you, everyone. This has been friends through a lens. Friends through a lens. See you next week.

[B]

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