His Dark Materials: Northern Lights with Ella Risbridger

Summary

Sentimental Garbage Podcast Summary

Episode Title: His Dark Materials: Northern Lights with Ella Risbridger
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Ella Risbridger
Release Date: June 5, 2025

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Introduction

In this episode of Sentimental Garbage, hosted by Caroline O'Donoghue, Caroline joins forces with guest Ella Risbridger to delve into Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials series, focusing specifically on the first book, Northern Lights (The Golden Compass in the U.S.). The duo explores the intricate plot, complex characters, and profound themes that make this series a cornerstone of modern fantasy literature.

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Philip Pullman's World-Building and Literary Approach

Caroline and Ella begin by discussing Philip Pullman's distinctive world-building, emphasizing the rich, tactile details that bring his universe to life. Caroline shares her personal connection to Pullman's earlier works, noting how Sally Lockhart and I Was a Rat influenced her childhood:

Caroline (05:23): "And I think Pullman was the last, not the last, but like one of the old guard of children's writers who's just like, children can deal with anything. You can put anything in a children's book."

They admire Pullman's ability to craft stories that are both accessible to young readers and layered with themes that resonate with adults, allowing for multiple layers of re-reading and discovery.

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Plot Overview and Key Events

The hosts provide a detailed walkthrough of the plot of Northern Lights. They highlight Lyra Belacqua's journey from her sheltered life at Jordan College in Oxford to her harrowing adventure to rescue her friend, Roger, from the sinister Gobblers.

Key Plot Points Discussed:

• Lyra's Heritage and Early Life: Lyra believes she is an orphan but later discovers her aristocratic lineage, being the daughter of Lord Asriel and Mrs. Coulter.
• Roger's Disappearance: Triggering the main quest, Roger, Lyra's steadfast friend, vanishes, leading Lyra to defy adult authorities to find him.
• Encounter with Mrs. Coulter: Lyra is sent to live with Mrs. Coulter, a beautiful yet manipulative woman whose true intentions are far from benevolent.

Ella (05:56): "It's a book that really values bravery. And I don't know that a lot of books value that kind of... It's a kind of cultural value at the moment. That's top of the list."

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Themes and Symbolism

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the novel's exploration of themes such as sin, innocence, authority, and the duality of human nature, represented through the concept of Dust and demons.

• Dust and Original Sin: The mysterious substance Dust symbolizes original sin and consciousness. The Magisterium's (theocratic authority) attempts to suppress and control Dust reflect broader themes of power and censorship.

Ella (06:35): "She's talking about all the adult relationships really. Like it can be applied to all these, all these love affairs that we have and live and die and they're brave and strong and then they go away and we have to bear that."

• Demons as Personal Essences: Demons are external manifestations of one's soul, unique to each individual. The relationship between a person and their demon provides deep insights into their character and inner conflicts.

Caroline (28:45): "It's like, she never has to think anything. Everyone in the world can have a conversation... it's just like a reflection on how she's feeling that is just so."

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Character Analysis

• Lyra Belacqua: An embodiment of bravery and intuition, Lyra navigates her tumultuous world through instinct rather than extensive knowledge, highlighting the purity and resilience of childhood.

  Ella (07:03): "She is the actor, which has..."

• Mrs. Coulter: A complex antagonist, Mrs. Coulter represents seductive authority and the corruption of power. Her interactions with Lyra reveal the nuanced portrayal of villains in Pullman's work.

• Lord Asriel: Charismatic and driven, Asriel's quest to "destroy God" introduces intense moral and philosophical dilemmas, positioning him as a formidable figure whose actions have far-reaching consequences.

  Caroline (86:05): "He will lead the great battle. Like this is a world where you have to kind of..."

• Yorick Benenson (Iorek Byrnison): The armored bear serves as both protector and symbol of strength, embodying themes of honor and sacrifice.

  Caroline (71:40): "And he is such a gifted blacksmith... that is, he is being honest with her."

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Literary Devices and Storytelling Techniques

Pullman's use of demons as both companions and reflections of one's inner self is a masterful literary device that allows for deep character exploration without overt exposition. Additionally, the alethiometer serves as a symbol of truth and intuition, a tool that Lyra uses to navigate the uncertainties of her journey.

Caroline (28:45): "It's like, oh, she never has to think anything... it just doesn't matter how private somebody's being."

The narrative's non-linear progression and complex plot weaving mimic the realistic unpredictability of life, making the fantastical elements feel grounded and relatable.

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Cultural and Societal Reflections

The hosts draw parallels between the novel's depiction of societal structures and real-world issues such as colonialism, class disparity, and authoritarianism. The plight of the Gyptians, marginalized boat-dwellers akin to Romani or Irish Travelers, underscores themes of displacement and systemic neglect.

Caroline (22:40): "It's like, oh, if a daughter of aristocrats went missing from a cocktail party in Mayfair... It remains relevant today."

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Emotional and Philosophical Insights

A poignant discussion ensues on the emotional weight of the narrative, particularly the absence of time for mourning and the relentless pursuit of a "greater good" that often sacrifices individual lives. This reflects Pullman's critique of utilitarianism and the moral compromises made in the name of progress.

Ella (83:38): "The hosts discuss how being brave to do the right thing, even if it means traumatic choices, is a central message of the book."

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Conclusion and Reflections

Caroline and Ella wrap up the episode by acknowledging the emotional intensity and narrative complexity of Northern Lights. They commend Pullman for creating a story that resonates across age groups, balancing the innocence of youth with the gravitas of adult concerns.

Caroline (115:02): "One kid is everybody's kid. If you do it to one, there's no such thing."

The hosts express anticipation for future discussions as they continue the summer book club series, promising deeper exploration into the subsequent books of His Dark Materials.

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Notable Quotes

• Caroline (05:23): "Children can deal with anything. You can put anything in a children's book."
• Ella (06:35): "She's talking about all the adult relationships really."
• Caroline (28:45): "It's like, she never has to think anything."
• Caroline (86:05): "He’s going to do what Mrs. Coulter has been doing at great scale."
• Caroline (115:02): "One kid is everybody's kid. If you do it to one, there's no such thing."

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This episode of Sentimental Garbage offers an in-depth and emotionally charged analysis of Northern Lights, celebrating Philip Pullman's ability to intertwine complex themes with captivating storytelling. Whether you're revisiting the series or encountering it for the first time, Caroline and Ella provide a rich tapestry of insights that underscore the enduring legacy of Pullman's masterpiece.

Transcript

[Caroline]

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[Ella Risberger]

Hi, everyone. Magical Garbage is a podcast mini series about fantasy storytelling and the enchanted things that helped make us who we are. I'm doing this miniseries in celebration of my new novel, Skipshock, which is out on June 5th. And it's a story about love and time travel and parallel worlds and the moment in your life when you realize that you can't really be on the fence about things anymore, that you've got to love with your whole heart and fight with your whole heart and on one occasion, violate the rules of a nude bathhouse with your whole heart. I'm so proud of this book. I think it's so fun and exciting and I would be so honoured and delighted if you could pre order Skipshock from any brick and mortar bookseller of your choice. I'm sure you know this already, but pre orders are so important in the early stages of a book's success. So if you're going to buy the book anyway, please think of a pre order as a special favor to me, the girl who's been talking to you from this recording booth for seven years. Okay, on with the show. Hello, and welcome to Magical Garbage, the podcast where the Magisterium forbids this research. My name is Caroline, and my demon is a small white dog who's farting right next to me. And joining me is the head of the ablation board, It's Ella Risberger.

[Caroline]

Hi. I don't want to be the head.

[Ella Risberger]

Of the ablation board. No, no one wants to be the head of the ablation board.

[Caroline]

I want to be a nice one.

[Ella Risberger]

So today we're talking about Northern Lights, which is the first book of the His Dark Materials series, which is going to be our little summer book club for Magical Garbage.

[Caroline]

We've wanted to do a summer book club for so long.

[Ella Risberger]

Remember when we thought we were going to do Middlemarch.

[Caroline]

Look, it's important sometimes to kid yourself. I'm really glad we're doing a summer book club because I think the other option was to do it as a Christmas special, and I think it's too rich a text.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And try and do it even in one single long episode.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Would feel like such a betrayal of there being so much going on.

[Ella Risberger]

Totally so the kind of. The format we're going for is June is going to be Northern Lights, July Sutton Life, and August, the. Why am I blanking on the third one? Amber Spyglass. Amber Spyglass. There we go. And you know what it would be? You're dead right. If we did one big mega episode on his Dark Materials, it would feel like a betrayal, because there are some series, like the Lord of the Rings, for example, where it's like we have one quest that is a through line of the whole thing. Right. Whereas this is like, the first book is really a rescue tale. It's a rescue adventure. It's a kind of a heist, in a way. It's two heists. It's like, get the kids back from the north and also get Lord Azrael out of jail. And it's very driven in that kind of direction. Whereas second book, a whole different thing. Third book, whole different thing again, Like.

[Caroline]

I know I'm halfway through the second one in preparation.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I couldn't believe the tonal switch.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

From Northern Lights to the second one. And the third one, I think, is another massive tonal switch.

[Ella Risberger]

Let's talk about this first book first. But, like, just for American listeners who will be familiar with it. Also, it's not called Northern lights in the U.S. right?

[Caroline]

No, it's called the Golden Compass. Here is a fun fact for you.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Did you think that the Golden Compass, as is the terrible movie title.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Referred to the alethiometer?

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, of course.

[Caroline]

Me too. But it doesn't.

[Ella Risberger]

What are the references?

[Caroline]

This is my new fun fact of this morning that I just found from looking on the Internet.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Okay. So it's another quote from Milton, and it refers to a compass. Of course we'll get into Milton.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

What a depressing thing to say on a podcast. But it will be fun, I promise.

[Ella Risberger]

On our fun pop culture podcast, it.

[Caroline]

Refers to, like, compasses, like the one things you draw a circle with. And it's about God's instruments that he uses to circum, like.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, like a mat set compass. Yeah.

[Caroline]

For mapping the world. And Pullman, instead of his dark materials, called it the Golden Compasses. And the American editors were just like, sure, the Golden Compass, like the idiot.

[Ella Risberger]

Theater, because it has that kind of kid adventure story bounce to it. And Pullman was much more so than his Art Materials, which is a far less catchy title.

[Caroline]

Much spookier. And Northern Lights, a weird title.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Imagine trying to do that now. Imagine being like, I'm just gonna call it Northern Lights. No, you won't be able to Google it. No. But I was thinking about this just this morning. Cause I was thinking about the kind of Victoriana almost of Philip Pullman's, particularly Northern Lights. He kind of shakes it off for later books in this trilogy. But Northern Lights is very much a world of, you know, master, the demons are here. Open the gate and pour the wine.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes, yes.

[Caroline]

It's very much candlelight and candlelight and also all the old names for things using, I guess, colonial era or pre colonial era names for things like Kamchatka and Tatas, all of which are names that I know from old game versions of Risk. But as a child, they were so magical to me because I knew them from essentially board games and little snatches of history that I picked up by being a weird kid who was always reading.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I think Philip Pullman's books previous to that, he'd written a series called the Sally Lockhart books, which were the, I think I'm right in saying the books that had enabled him to give up teaching and become a full time writer.

[Ella Risberger]

Okay.

[Caroline]

And they weren't. I don't think they were mega successful.

[Ella Risberger]

They did well enough.

[Caroline]

Right. I think he was like pretty normal kids writer. I mean, they were mega successful with me. I, I don't know. I, I listen, I played Sally Lockhart in the playground for three years straight, just like arguing with my best friend about who would be Sally Loca. I know we just act our scenes. I think maybe Philip Pullman is the last. Not the last, but like one of the old guard of children's writers who's just like, children can deal with anything. You can put anything in a children's book. And they will, they'll deal with it in their own way.

[Ella Risberger]

They'll deal with it in their way. And also the things they're not ready for yet, they will sort of slide on by in the same way that, like, it really made me think there's this jumping ahead. I mean, we should do a plot summary first. But like, there's a conversation that Lyra is having with Seraphina Pekala towards the end of the book where they're just in Lee Scoresby's hot air balloon. And Seraphina, who is a witch and who's been alive for many generations and has also been at one point in love with one of the other characters, Fadhorm, which is so emotional, and she talks to her about, like, here are the relationships that witches have with mortal men and we love them, but they die really Quickly.

[Caroline]

They're butterflies.

[Ella Risberger]

They're butterflies. Beautiful and strong, but they, they die so quickly.

[Caroline]

Beautiful and brave and strong and honorable. They die in a day, but they.

[Ella Risberger]

Die in a day. Oh, already crying 10 minutes into the pod and it's like. And she literally says to Lyra, I'm telling you this, even though you don't understand it, but this is kind of the truth of the human heart kind of thing really. And she's talking about the specific thing between witches and men, but she's talking about all adult relationships really. Like it can be applied to like all these, all these love affairs that we have and live and die and they're brave and strong and then they go away and we have to bear that. And it's such a complicated adult thing as. And I just think the kids, the kids who need to read that at that point in their life and I don't know, for some reason I got put in the head of like maybe a 12 year old who's going through a divorce or something or their parents are going through a divorce.

[Caroline]

12 year old who's going through a divorce.

[Ella Risberger]

She's had a 12 year old ex wife, 12 year old divorce. Do you know what I mean? I thought of like anyone who needs this sentence, like I need the sentence as a 35 year old woman or any child who's going through a time when they're trying to understand love and human relationships will pluck it out and hold it close and other kids will slide past it and revisit it when they're older. And I think when people try and censor or police books or who should read what at what age, it's like you will slide past what you don't need.

[Caroline]

You know, I mean, listen, I read Atonement when it first came out in hardback. Yeah, I was 10.

[Ella Risberger]

That's crazy to me.

[Caroline]

10 or 11. My mum had bought it because my mom loves Ian McEwen.

[Ella Risberger]

Great.

[Caroline]

I was like, fantastic. Finally it's a book about a kid.

[Ella Risberger]

I have that too. So I read east of Eden when I was super young because it was the kids of the stars, Cain and Abel, their kids. The stars, like any Bildungs were man, where they turn into adult men. So I've like just. Anyway, they start as kids and end as men. I'm like, guess I'm going on this boy to man journey with you.

[Caroline]

I remember my mum saying to me, oh, I was putting it back on the shelf. And she was like, oh, what did.

[Ella Risberger]

You, what did you make of atonement.

[Caroline]

What did you make of Atonement? And I was like, oh, I loved it. And she was like, oh, right. And she was like, were there any bits you wanted to talk about? I was like, you want me to talk about the bit in the library? But I skimmed over that. And she was like, okay, sure, I guess. And I. I loved that book. At least I loved the parts where she was a child. When she got older, I was a bit like, oh, come on.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

She did nothing wrong here. She just wanted to put an uplay. And these people will not let her put on her plate.

[Ella Risberger]

I relate.

[Caroline]

I related so much.

[Ella Risberger]

So let's talk about. We should do a plot summary of Northern Lights. Because it might be.

[Caroline]

I mean, good luck.

[Ella Risberger]

Good luck. Because it's a very slippery plot. Right.

[Caroline]

I guess. Because you kind of feel like you are learning things in real time with.

[Ella Risberger]

Lyra, even when you're rereading it, having read it.

[Caroline]

Totally.

[Ella Risberger]

A few times. I've read this four or five times at this point.

[Caroline]

Same every time something new happens, you're like, oh, God. Off we go to this bit. She's always going to a place to get a thing. And I think that is very satisfying to read as a child. Adult novels don't really take that form.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I think that's the thing that gives away that Philip Pullman was trained on telling stories to a class of kids.

[Ella Risberger]

Because, you know this about Pullman, He's a teacher.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So all of his first books were stories he was telling his class, like, in instalments. I know. Isn't that so nice? And then you get things like. I can't remember exactly. It might be called, like, the Firework Maker's Daughter, which was magical to me when I first heard it. And then you get his next kind of sets of books, which were things like. Did you ever hear a book called I Was a Rat? No. It is.

[Ella Risberger]

I can only imagine what it's about, though, Caroline.

[Caroline]

Listen, it's. What if Cinderella was retold through newspaper clippings to be about Princess Diana.

[Ella Risberger]

What?

[Caroline]

Yeah. It's a children's book. There's a lot of pictures in it.

[Ella Risberger]

It's not about being a rat.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's about one. It's told from this perspective of one of the rats who gets turned into, like, a page boy. And he is. There's. I Was a Rat is his newspaper headline in the Daily Mail. It's like, I Was a rat.

[Ella Risberger]

My God, that's incredible.

[Caroline]

It's so clever and sophisticated. I absolutely loved It. I was a rat.

[Ella Risberger]

I was a rat.

[Caroline]

I have. Not. To be clear, I've not reread this since I was maybe 8 years old. So if my telling of this is wrong, forgive. But I was a rat. And it's all about media and tabloid culture.

[Ella Risberger]

That's incredible.

[Caroline]

Unbelievable. It's a. Like a commentary on the way the media treated Princess Diana, obviously, in Britain when she was still alive.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Four children. And then you go from that to something like the Sally Lockhart books, which were obviously really important to me, which are all set in late Victorian London.

[Ella Risberger]

Mm.

[Caroline]

They are really very dark. She can ride a horse. She's very beautiful. She's extremely strong and powerful. She's up against some enemy. She goes to an opium den. Spends a lot of time in an opium den. She's tracking down an identical twin brother.

[Ella Risberger]

Sounds great.

[Caroline]

It's so good. I mean, it's obviously problematic because of.

[Ella Risberger]

All the opium, all the colonialism.

[Caroline]

To me, all the colonialism, all the opiates. You have this buildup of, like, I'm telling stories to children and I'm gonna take you. And so really, we need to have hooks, constant hooks.

[Ella Risberger]

And constantly. It's almost like Dickensian, right?

[Caroline]

Exactly.

[Ella Risberger]

It's his version of writing for a serialized audience. If he's, like, trying to get his kids to the end of the lesson or whatever, and he's like, tune in tomorrow.

[Caroline]

That's exactly it. To be like. And at the end of the day, if you're good, I'll tell you the next bit. And that's how I feel about all of his writing, that you're always going to a place to pick up a treasure.

[Ella Risberger]

So true. Sorry for interrupting you. You were getting to such a magnificent point.

[Caroline]

And that's kind of. I think you can really see. And sometimes those treasures are things you're getting to in the text. You know, you're getting the alethiometer. You're meeting an armored bear. You're seeing a stick of cloud pine. You're meeting a witch for the first time. And sometimes those treasures are something that I think are harder for an adult to notice as treasures. So, for example, in the Shadow in the north, there is a part where a beloved character. Sexy Fred, if anyone else has really had a sexual awakening. To the Shadow in the north by Philip Pullman. He calls someone a silly. The treasure of that page.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she is a silly, too. She's a silly.

[Ella Risberger]

She's.

[Caroline]

She's caused the destruction of terror. She's done terrible things out of vanity, really Vanity and not being sure of herself. But that's a treasure when you're nine years old. To be like, oh, hide a little.

[Ella Risberger]

Silly bitch in there, Isabelle, you silly bitch.

[Caroline]

It's unbelievable. And that, I think, is the kind of thing that Pullman does so well, is to be like that to me was such a thing of, oh, he's not talking down. He's not hiding the world from me. He's interested in showing it to me.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I think that is where you can. All of that training of being like. It's possible to critique the media. It's possible to tell a story full of hooks. It's possible not to talk down to kids. And it's possible to tell a story that goes clip, clip, clip. Just taking you on a winding road to these revelations. And then to do Northern Lights. Something fascinating I learned on my deep dive into how this was written was that Pullman was really, really struggling with a book that he had promised and was just being like, lyra, Lyra, Lyra. She lives in Oxford and was just like, writing this first chapter that was going incredibly badly. And he's like. It was about 2:30 in the afternoon, summer 1993, and he was just like. And I found that I had typed Lyra and Her Demon. And he was like. And then I knew what a demon was. He was like, I knew what a demon looked like, but I didn't know what a demon was. And so I just kept writing to find out. And I think also this book has a real quality of not writing to find out, but you do feel like that you feel like Pullman is obviously, he's the master of the text, but he's also opening doors with you.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

He's not just like holding a door for you to go through. He's right there with you being like, and now we open the big double doors.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, my God. So my only research outside of reading the book for this podcast was listening to an interview that he gave in 2000, just after Sutton Life came out and before the final one came out. And he's doing like a BBC book club, and all the people in attendance are mostly children under the age of sort of 16. And somebody asks him, how did the demons get named? And he goes, oh, you know, I haven't.

[Caroline]

It's a question.

[Ella Risberger]

I haven't really thought of that. But I would imagine it would be the parents. The demons of the parents would name the demon together. And it was like this perfect. It's like that beautiful thing of, like, it's Almost like his dark materials are his alethiometer. Like, it's like he just focuses on the question and then the. And then the answer. Just the symbols come together at once. And he's like, I know this so well, so inside and out and backwards, I can just produce an answer that is true. And also, I've just made up at the same time, you know? And that is like being the master of your own work. Like, it's all right. It's not being an author, it's being a master of the text, you know?

[Caroline]

I think he is a master. And I think it feels clear when you read these books. It's like, oh, we're watching. This is a masterpiece. Like, in the very old sense of, like.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, it's a master's piece.

[Caroline]

It's the piece that proves that he can do it, that he can do anything. It's like a calling card for, like, oh, I would trust Philip Pullman to write anything for me. Yeah, I would trust that man to build me this. To carve me this sculpture, to build me this door, to sew me this thing, dye me this bit of fabric. I think what's interesting is I do always come back to these very tactile things when I'm thinking about Pullman as a writer. Yeah, this, like, hewing things out of stone and, like, weaving tapestries. And I think partly that's because the books are so tactile. There's just so many furs.

[Ella Risberger]

So many furs. I was about to say there's fur chewing on seal meat. And, like, the blubber. The blubber. The texture, the iron, you know, the armor. Let's. Okay. Should I try a plot summary? Just because we get everybody up, maybe we can talk about it in sections, I think would be nice. Okay.

[Caroline]

Because I think we're talking now. We've established that Lyra and Roger live in an Oxford college.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. Lyra is the children. Is the child of. She thinks she's an orphan. She is actually the child of two aristocrats. One of them is Lord Azrael, who is a explorer and former mp.

[Caroline]

Former mp.

[Ella Risberger]

He's in the House of Lords. He votes very favourably on Egyptian stuff, which I want to talk to you about in a minute. And she's sort of, like, more or less estranged from him. Like, he arrives in the college.

[Caroline]

She thinks he's his uncle. She thinks that he is her uncle who arrives and says things, like, once a year.

[Ella Risberger]

And it's just like, oh, it's you. Is it?

[Caroline]

Oh, it's you. Behaving well. Don't get into any trouble.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, exactly. And might give her, like, a snack or something or some. Some money, but. So she is first chapter, and she is trying to sneak in to this meeting he's going to have with the other Oxford dons. And she is hiding in a closet with her demon, Pantalimon, and she notices that he is going to be poisoned by, like, her, basically, her caretaker. Right.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Ella Risberger]

What's the name of. It's Lord Boreal. No, not Lord Boreal. No, it's the Master. The Master of Jordan College at Oxford.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Ella Risberger]

And just has this thing of, like, this man who has. Has cared for her as a father should, or the closest thing to it.

[Caroline]

Like, yeah, he really loves her.

[Ella Risberger]

He really loves her. And as much as he can.

[Caroline]

I did not pick up at all that the people at Oxford loved her. I was just like, come on, you stick in the mud. She's got places to be. Let her go and be with a real father. And as an adult, I'm just like, oh, you've ripped my heart out. These people love you. Not. Not the Lord Asriel, who is so. Just detached from.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Detached from humanity.

[Ella Risberger]

That's the thing is. Is that, like, what we learn over the course of this first book is that her parents are Lord Azrael and then one of the great villains of all of literature, Mrs. Coulter, who, for some, even though they're both kind of guilty of the same. Of similar sins, she, for some reason, is the horrifying one to me. Her and her horrible golden monkey and the. Oh, she's worse than they are. Yeah, she's worse for reasons I get into, but, like, they both are awful. And it's like the heartbreaking thing of, like, oh, this child. Her parents don't care about her, and all they care about is themselves and their own ambition and their own greed. But that sort of heartbreakingness is sort of leveled off or softened by the fact that all these people love her.

[Caroline]

So much, so many people care about her. And what's interesting about the fact that I failed to see that they loved her as a child.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Is that Lyra also assumes they're kind of. That she's the only important one. You know, that part. So she sneaks into this meeting. Her uncle's there, nearly poisoned. She stops her uncle being poisoned, and kind of almost as a result, they decide that she should go away from.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

It's hard to see. Lyra doesn't see a connection, but I can see a clear connect. You See a clear connection on a reread.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

That as a result of all the meeting and everything that's happening. And the fact that the Master has tried to poison Lord Asriel. And she stopped that happening. Which means that Lord Asriel's still alive. Which is. But also she's thrilled. She thinks she saved his life.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It is decided to send Lyra away from this wild childhood.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

To live with Mrs. Coulter, a woman who's just turned up. A beautiful, kind, interesting woman.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Before that can happen, her childhood playmate Roger goes missing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Lyra and Roger have had this wild childhood together. With all the Egyptian kids who live on the boats.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

In Oxford.

[Ella Risberger]

And they're kind of like. They're like a traveling people. They're kind of like a. Like Romany gypsies or sometimes I think Irish travelers when I read them. But they live in canal boats.

[Caroline]

They were traveling people of the Fens and canal boats. They're like Dutch in origin, I think.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. Yeah. Which is really interesting.

[Caroline]

I mean, there's so much complex politics in this world that is like ours. And unlike ours, which is really fascinating and I think is why the books hold up to rereading so well is there's always more to be like. And this. Tell me more about the history of the Fen people.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. All their sort of Dutch language things like the calling. I only realized in this time around, like, oh, it's fajrcoram. It's like Dutch.

[Caroline]

Exactly.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

So all the kids are throwing mud at each other and screaming and generally living these kind of life of hoodlums. And they are often playing real life things like cops and robbers, or in their case, Gobblers and children. Gobblers are a kind of boogeyman that people have vaguely heard of. He's like, oh, he's the Gobblers snatch kids. Which I don't know. Was this a thing you played as kids? Like, somewhat like a. We used to freak ourselves out constantly by being like, oh, there's a crazy man. He escaped from the lunatic hospital and he's coming to our school.

[Ella Risberger]

Do you know what really struck me on this reread is that the first we hear about the Gobblers is that we actually get a kind of a Mrs. Coulter sort of. We cut away from the action and we get this sort of random London street boy who is abducted by Mrs. Coulter because she promises him hot chocolate or whatever. It's really, really upset.

[Caroline]

Like Chocolatl.

[Ella Risberger]

Do you like Chocolatl? And that bit where she makes all the kids write notes home to their parents and then she burns them all.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Not in front of the kids. That's what's worse is that she's. And when she's writing the notes for the kids who can't write and like the kids who are just like, I can't write and my mum can't read and she's like, okay, just tell me what you want to say and I'll make sure someone tells her.

[Ella Risberger]

And they're all like marginalized kids. Like kids who will not be like that authorities won't go chasing after, essentially.

[Caroline]

Yeah. They're all. I'm reading it back. Like there's so many kids who, like, none of the kids are rich. None of the kids are even middle class. They're.

[Ella Risberger]

They're from the slums of London.

[Caroline]

They're from the slums of London or Egyptian. They're often not white. They're often traveling. They're often people whose parents are clearly like addicts.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Or anything else. And I just. The class, the whole system of that of being like, nobody cares when mixed race kids go. Mixed race poor kids whose mums are addicts go missing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It's like, oh, that remains true.

[Ella Risberger]

That remains true. Yeah. And, and, or not that nobody cares, but just that, like it can be sort of dusted away and forgotten about. Not that no one raises the alarm, but that no one raises further alarm.

[Caroline]

No one raises. If it's not that no one raises the alarm. Although in some cases maybe. I think it's much more. Who's listening to the alarm.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, exactly. And I think it's that thing of he does this brilliant thing where he like takes a world of like familiar childhood threat, as you say, cops and robbers or whatever, or freaking yourselves out. And it's very much the absolute thing of like, if someone comes to you, I mean your mom ever says to you, anyone ever tries to pick you up from school, no matter what they say or what they say they'll give you. Don't go with them or whatever it is. Like, as long as you are old enough to sort of like walk anywhere by yourself. The idea of the man in the white van or like, totally, he'll give you sweets and whatever.

[Caroline]

He'll give you sweets. I'll show you a puppy.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah. I'll show you a puppy.

[Caroline]

Yeah. The big one thing that we were always drilled into was like, even if he says that his dog has got puppies in his house, you don't go in.

[Ella Risberger]

You know what I was so struck by it, with this reread as well, I never again. This is the fourth or fifth time I've been at this book and for some reason, this scene was visible to me for the first time now, which is that. So the Gobblers exist. And we'll get to them in detail in just a second. But like, they. They snatch kids and they are the big threat to this world. But there are also pedophiles. There are also straight pedos. Like, there's a bit where she escapes Mrs. Coulter's dinner party and she just goes into some cafe and he's like, the man tries to get her drunk and tries to take her home. And she's like 10.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Ella Risberger]

Like, so the regular threats of being a human.

[Caroline]

And when she's just like. She has to say, I'm waiting. And he's like, who are you waiting for? Exactly.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. My dad. He's a murderer.

[Caroline]

My dad, he's a murderer. I can see him coming out. He looks really angry.

[Ella Risberger]

So funny.

[Caroline]

So funny. But also like, that man's so oily and smooth and he's so, like, prepared to kidnap you.

[Ella Risberger]

Do you think he was a Gobbler or did you think he was a straightforward pedo?

[Caroline]

I thought he was a straightforward pedo, yeah. I thought it was a thing of being, like, straightforward, Peter. But, you know, I think the thing of, like, oh, the world is dangerous.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

But to come back to the thing of.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

So the kids have all been playing this game.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And then one day it becomes clear it's more than a game when Roger goes missing. Roger goes missing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so the thing I was talking about before we went on a big loopy tangent, which is very Pullman, to go on a big loopy tangent and then come back to the beginning is that Lyra is just like, no one cares that Roger has been stolen by the Gobblers. And she's like, basically stomping around and everyone's like, lyra, you're moving to London.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah. Stop talking about this, by the way. Meet this cool woman.

[Caroline]

Meet this cool, sexy woman. Her name is Mrs. Coldidge. Brackets. She is your mother. No one's supposed to know that. She's cool. And she'll work like she's interested in you. And she says she'll take you to the north and she'll buy you all new clothes.

[Ella Risberger]

And I was like, you'll be her assistant.

[Caroline]

You'll be her assistant. Which is such a clever thing to say to a 10 year old.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because it's like, I'm not going to adopt you. You're not going to go to school, but you're going to be my assistant.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And also Mrs. Coulter is the first sexy woman that Lyra's ever seen.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. She knows, like, kind of gyptian boat mothers and she knows, like, kitchen women who are sort of coarse with her or whatever and who are just like, trying to breed some discipline into her. And she's just. She's a kid. She hates them. Even though these people, again, love her enormously.

[Caroline]

But this is the thing about her blindness to love is when she says to the woman who's been like, has brought her up from a baby.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

She's like, you don't care about Roger.

[Ella Risberger]

And this woman's like, he's my cousin.

[Caroline]

He's my nephew.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Yes, I do.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I love him and I love you and you need to wash your face. And it's just this thing of like, that really struck me on this reading is that Lyra is, like, canonically very self absorbed. This is a book about self absorption.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But that I, as a child read it just being like, yeah, yeah.

[Ella Risberger]

This bitch.

[Caroline]

This bitch, she doesn't care about anything. She doesn't care about the fact we've got to go on an adventure to find Roger.

[Ella Risberger]

And it's like, yeah. No.

[Caroline]

She is a woman in her 40s who's just like, my nephew is missing. This child is threatening to run away.

[Ella Risberger]

All these Oxford dons are yelling at me about getting this kid ready to leave her life forever. And I have to get the right clothes together and wash her.

[Caroline]

I have to get the clothes together. That will impress in London.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And being like, whatever I pack for her will be wrong.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Like the torture of that.

[Caroline]

And I think that is one of the wonderful things about Pullman is that all of the secondary and even tertiary characters are so profoundly well drawn that you could write a whole book about them.

[Ella Risberger]

And also. And what adds to their well drawnness is the fact that. And we haven't talked about this yet, everyone has a demon. And that gives you an insight into their character that may not be obvious at the forefront. Right. One thing I always get very offended by whenever I reread these books is that everyone who has a dog for a demon is an idiot. You get often, like, his demon was a small white terrier or something. I'm like, how dare you? And he was a dumb witted man.

[Caroline]

Yeah. That is. That is tough for you.

[Ella Risberger]

That is tougher. I Literally have her sitting right next to me, being my spirit, myself.

[Caroline]

But I do think, though, that it's like you have to know yourself.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, would I think you'd be a good servant? Because I think dog. Demons mean you'd make a good servant.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Because what Pullman says is because dogs like to know where they sit in the order of things. So that's why servants often have dogs.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Ella Risberger]

Demons.

[Caroline]

And they like to be helpful.

[Ella Risberger]

Excuse me.

[Caroline]

It doesn't mean you have to.

[Ella Risberger]

We're also very brave, but like a demon. The thing is, there's no easily quantifiable way to sum up a demon, but you get. Because it is the soul externalized, but in a way, it's also more than that.

[Caroline]

You know, best friend.

[Ella Risberger]

It's your best friend. It's yourself, it's your essence, it's everything about you. But also your best friend.

[Caroline]

You know, you're never alone. I mean, what struck me. I keep saying what struck me. Everything struck me on this reading. What I found very interesting from a literary perspective on this read was, like, what a useful device it is.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Oh, she never has to think anything.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. She can have a conversation.

[Caroline]

Everyone in the world can have a conversation.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

You know, it doesn't matter how private somebody's being. It doesn't matter whether someone's doing something secretive or furtive.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

They've always got the demon there to chat about it with. Which means it's much more an immediate way of showing, like, internal conflict and thought. Just like. As a literary device for storytelling, it's unbelievable.

[Ella Risberger]

Not even always having a dialogue with Pantaliman, who's the name of her demon. Sometimes it's just like she felt Pan pulling away or he turned into something else. And, like, it's this reflection on how she's feeling that is just so. It's like introducing so many more colors to the palette of how we can talk about how a character feels or what they're doing.

[Caroline]

And when he crossly turns into something else.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

When he's scared and becomes, like, a very small mouse. Yeah. It's kind of. Yeah. It's an amazing literary device. It's also. It doesn't feel like a literary device.

[Ella Risberger]

When you read it.

[Caroline]

Which is the best kind of literary device.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

It feels like the most important and natural thing in the world and therefore leads everybody to answer the question, like, what is your demon? What would your demon be?

[Ella Risberger]

And the thing is, like, of course. It's like it has, like, sort of like, sort of that Pokemon stickiness of being, like, what if you had your own little Pikachu, who is your friend forever kind of thing? But it also has this. It's so interesting to me from, like, page 10, like, when we're just talking about, like, Lyra's life at the college and everything that led her to this moment where she's in the closet looking at Lord Azrael. That thing of her talking about this prank her and Roger played in the crypts in Oxford, how they switch around. They take coins or something.

[Caroline]

They've got the coin. So all the dead. All the heads of the scholars, all the skulls of the dead scholars have got a gold coin wedged in between their, like, skeleton teeth. And on the gold coin is the, like, the name. The name and the animal of their demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And they switch them around. They steal, they do something, and they.

[Caroline]

Switch them for a joke.

[Ella Risberger]

And then she gets these, like, night guests, which I guess are just night terrors or whatever. And the kind of the deep fun. It comes up several times again of, like, this is kind of the worst thing Lyra's ever done. And it's like. And then they corrected it. Because to tamper with somebody's demon is the. And it comes up in many ways, in different ways of, like, tampering someone's demon is sort of like the most unimaginable taboo in crime.

[Caroline]

Also, you mustn't touch someone else's demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Which is so they can touch each other.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

What does it mean?

[Ella Risberger]

What does it mean?

[Caroline]

So Roger has gone missing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Lyra's gone to London to live with Mrs. Coulter. And it was very surprising to me on this reread that the London time with Mrs. Coulter is so short.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Over in a blink. I know. I felt that way, too.

[Ella Risberger]

I'm so sorry you said that. Yeah.

[Caroline]

I remembered it as being years, but no, you just go long enough to get the.

[Ella Risberger]

For a few weeks.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. We've forgotten something very vital.

[Ella Risberger]

What?

[Caroline]

On the night before Lyra leaves the morning Lyra leaves Oxford.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. She's woken early.

[Caroline]

She's woken early by the woman who loves her and told to get dressed and wash her face and immediately go over to see the Master. She's like, why?

[Ella Risberger]

And she has to go a weird way. She has to go through the window or something.

[Caroline]

She goes through the window and across the quad and she's like, what is going on? I hate boring. Boring. Lyra has such disdain for adults. I love it.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she goes. And the Master gives her this golden.

[Ella Risberger]

Compass, which is not the golden compass.

[Caroline]

Not the golden compass of the title. Different golden compass. No, it's. And it's like. I mean, like a pocket watch, I guess.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

It's weird. I can, like, feel it very much in my hand. But I find it very hard to describe without feeling like, naff.

[Ella Risberger]

I know the way I have it in my head is that, like, imagine a big fat gold pocket watch, but, like those three dials on it that you can. Yeah. And three hands. Yeah. And so. And it is a sort of. They call it a symbol reader. It's full of these symbols. There'd be like an hourglass or a snake or whatever. And all these kind of archetypes that have different meanings. And like. Okay, there's maybe three or four of these in the world. It's important that you have it. We can't tell you why.

[Caroline]

It's to do with Lord Asriel.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. Yes. And she takes that to me.

[Caroline]

As with all good stories. Before he can say anything else.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

There's a knock at the door and he's like, go, child.

[Ella Risberger]

Take it. Rag it. Don't show anyone.

[Caroline]

Don't show.

[Ella Risberger]

Don't show. Mrs. Coulter.

[Caroline]

Don't show Mrs. Coulter.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she's like, fantastic. I'm going to live somewhere else with a woman who is supposed to be the person I trust. And you have told me already his secret. Massive secret.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

So that is huge. Also.

[Ella Risberger]

Also the man who she's. Who's been her caretaker, who's also tried to kill her, you know, uncle in front of her. And now he's telling her to keep a secret from somebody else who's also going to be her guardian. It's so confusing.

[Caroline]

I think that's it.

[Ella Risberger]

Emotionally confusing.

[Caroline]

But the book as a whole is confusing. Confusing things happen constantly. From the start.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Reading it feels a lot like being 11.

[Ella Risberger]

It does.

[Caroline]

In that you're like, oh, there are machinations and things going on. I'll never know. To kind of jump back a little bit to the. To the Gyptians. Their whole world. Lyra has never asked a single question.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

About them. She's just like.

[Ella Risberger]

She makes assumptions or she lies and then convinced.

[Caroline]

They live on boats. They live on boats. They have funny accents. Sometimes they're on my side, sometimes they're on other people's side. I tried to steal one of their boats last summer. And I have great shame about that.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Great shame.

[Caroline]

But she has no. She doesn't know anything about the world. And that is very it's very nice to fall back into as an adult.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Where you're like, oh my God, I have to know about everything that's happening.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Particularly in the kind of world we live in where it's like you need to know about everything that's happening everywhere in the world. It's very important that you maintain a knowledge of all world politics. Otherwise God help you.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's very compelling to me to be an 11 year old self where she's just like, I don't know, politics, I guess. Grownups, boring. Off I go. And the plot kind of just happens, swirling around her.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And the whole book really. People keep saying you will over and over again through the book whenever anyone's talking about Lyra. And it's very important that she doesn't know.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It's very important.

[Ella Risberger]

She has this great destiny.

[Caroline]

She has a great destiny. But for the destiny to be fulfilled, she must never know she has the destiny.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And because her instincts are what's most important to her.

[Caroline]

Yeah. She has to follow her instincts. And what we now know is called the alethiometer, which she turns out to have this unbelievable ability to read.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

She doesn't need. She doesn't need to read the books. She doesn't need anything. She just makes her mind go blank and ask the question.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And then it will point to a number of symbols. It might be like sort of snake, milk bottle, castle. And she'll be like, oh, well, a snake is a sneaky thing. Milk is a whatever. And she'll be. Oh, that means that the Lord of Jordan college is coming over right now kind of thing. And she'll just manage to deduce that from a couple of symbols.

[Caroline]

Yeah. From three little pictures in a way.

[Ella Risberger]

That is always correct.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And she's. Even when she doesn't know what it means, she's like. Sometimes she's confused when she doesn't have the adult knowledge of the world outside.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

No. So there's a part where a little bit later we'll get to it. A. This guy kind of like a mechanical bug spy.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

It's. I mean, weirdly most. It's like a drone.

[Ella Risberger]

Like a drone. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra has no conception of what this can be.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. She's never seen one.

[Caroline]

She never heard of anything like it.

[Ella Risberger]

It.

[Caroline]

And nor is anyone any of the adults around her. And she just keeps being like. She's like saying these symbols and she's like. But that can't make. That doesn't make any sense. And then it happens, and she's like, oh, that's what it was trying to say to me, but I had no adult knowledge.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

For what it is.

[Ella Risberger]

Which is great because it's a great power to give a kid. Because it's like, oh, she. You never get too close to the idea of, like, oh, she can just figure out the whole plot now. It's not like that thing in Lord of the Rings where, well, if the eagles could have flown you to Mount Doom, then why didn't they do that at the beginning? Gandalf. It's like, yeah, it's the exact right amount of power, but also limitations on that power. Because it's like the limitations are her lack of experience.

[Caroline]

Yes. Like, the power is innocence and imagination. And the check on it is she has no experience. She knows nothing of the world. Everybody keeps saying it at the beginning. She is remarkably ignorant for someone who's grown up in, like, the home of knowledge.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

She knows.

[Ella Risberger]

She has this really spotty knowledge where she knows about, like, quantum physics, but not like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very.

[Caroline]

So, plot summary. She's in London.

[Ella Risberger]

We're just kind of working through the plot and talking about as we go. Which is the nicer way of doing it, I think.

[Caroline]

So she's in London. Mrs. Coulter spoils her rotten. She buys her all these things which seem very soft, but they have this weird, sinister undertone, right? So she's like, have a bath with lovely foam and lovely. And she has this bath and she buys her slippers and a dressing gown, a little nightgown with flowers on it. And Lyra's like, oh, my God, I'm unbelievable.

[Ella Risberger]

I'm in heaven.

[Caroline]

And she has this bath and Mrs. Colter's washing her hair, and she, like, clicks at Lyra's demon, Pantalymon, to turn away because Pantalimon is a boy and Pan is like, what? Why would I look away from Lyra?

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. From myself. My 1.

[Caroline]

And Mrs. Coulter and Mrs. Coulter's horrible demon and extremely beautiful golden monkey are both, like, made to turn away because this is a female thing and it's important to separate out your nature.

[Ella Risberger]

It's so. It's the first moment. I mean, obviously we've had that prologue with Mrs. Coulter abducting that kid, but.

[Caroline]

You don't know it's Mrs. Coulter then.

[Ella Risberger]

You see the monkey.

[Caroline]

You do see the monkey, but it's not.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

You know, it's not. It's not.

[Ella Risberger]

We're suspicious of it, right?

[Caroline]

We're Suspicious.

[Ella Risberger]

But it's the first thing we've seen her do with Lyra. At this point, we're only, what, like, 100 pages into the book? Be less. And we're like, how dare you? Like this. This literary construct of which I have no similar reference point. I'm like, how? I'm still convinced that, like, to make a demon look away from you, that is like, you can't do that.

[Caroline]

Pullman does this incredible thing where he starts off referring to demons as, like, he or she or whatever. And it's very much like Lyra and her demon. And then by the time you get to that look away, we've already had us. And we, as the kind of Lyra's key pronoun, then becomes, we should do this.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And then you're like, lyra, is they them? Katniss Everdeen's a lesbian. And Lyra, is they them because she's two.

[Caroline]

Everyone in this world is they them. Which is. I think this is a small tangent, but I think a useful one in that there's this bit of Freud that I've been reading. I have written a book called In Love with Love. It's coming out this week.

[Ella Risberger]

It's so good. It's the best. It's the best.

[Caroline]

It's been a real joy to write. It's about romantic fiction. So, anyway, I was reading this bit of Freud because I felt like you need to get in some Freud. You need to think about what Freud would think about rom coms, where he talks about bisexuality and he talks about the idea that when two people are having sex, he's coming around to the idea it's actually four people having sex, at least, because everybody's got male and female elements to them. And, like, psychologically, it's like male and, like, we're all having sex with different parts of each other.

[Ella Risberger]

And it's like, I kind of get what he's trying to get at.

[Caroline]

Yeah, me too. I think it's really interesting, certainly from a bisexual point of view, but there's something very interesting about being like. And your demon is usually the opposite gender to yourself. And they're both you, and they're both innately you in that kind of same way of being. Like, oh, we contain multiple people.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I think that's what makes Niz's Coulter so scary, is that idea of, like, you need to be one thing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

You, Lyra, are a girl. Which means that Pan is a boy and he has to look away when you're in the bath.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And.

[Ella Risberger]

And that really brings you into my. Because like she. The magisterium, which is the sort of like theocracy that governs this world. A real. I mean as a born Catholic, to me, it's like it's given Vatican all over. Right. It's. It's.

[Caroline]

Well, because that's the thing, isn't it? And the Vatican, they talk about this. I wrote down a note to talk about this.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

The Vatican has been. Pope John Calvin moved the seat of the papacy to Geneva.

[Ella Risberger]

Okay.

[Caroline]

And after that the papacy is turned into the magisterium. And it's like. Yeah, it's not just. I think what's interesting is like it's not just Catholics. He's against the whole Christian.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh yeah. The whole thing. Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because obviously Calvinism and Catholicism are quite different. But like even the phrase Pope John Calvin is such a. Yeah. Such a terrifying thing to put in a book about an 11 year old. I don't know. I read a thing where I can't remember. This was ages ago that I read it where Pullman was like, yeah, I feel like Harry Potter's getting a lot. I'm paraphrasing. Harry Potter's getting a lot of being burnt flag. Whereas I'm out here killing God. And poor old Harry never said anything like that.

[Ella Risberger]

I know like literally there is no religion in Harry Potter. Like he never dealt with that at all. But he's just like literally killing God and blowing up heaven.

[Caroline]

The whole plot of the book, the whole question of the series is, is it right to kill God? And there's not an easy answer, but.

[Ella Risberger]

It'S like, yeah, it's just.

[Caroline]

It's not like, no, it's. No, it's like wrong to kill God or yes, it's right to kill God. It's very much like the world is rich and complex and everything you do has consequences, some of them terrible.

[Ella Risberger]

But like we're hearing about this magisterium and this theocracy throughout, but not in ways that are super applicable to the story yet. But that moment where she tells Pantalymon to look away is like that first moment where it feels Catholic, it feels Christian. To me, the idea of like, don't know yourself, don't look at yourself, don't touch yourself. Like to me, that was the immediate thing of like, if you wank, you'll be blind.

[Caroline]

Yes, absolutely. And Pan's just like a horror. Just like, what.

[Ella Risberger]

What are you talking about?

[Caroline]

That's not correct.

[Ella Risberger]

And it's the idea and the whole thing is that the whole kind of Mrs. Coulter's M.O. is essentially to, you know, rid children of sin before it has the time to develop. But it's. The irony of it is that she's putting in the idea of quote, unquote, sinful activity before Lyra is even old enough to consider what it might be like to be alone with her body or to think about her male side, or to think about being naked with her boy demon. You know what I mean? Like, she is implanting that idea, the idea of sin, the idea of dust. Even though her. Her whole job is to make sure kids never think about sin.

[Caroline]

It's real. What will you confess to in your first confession? Energy.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. God, I could talk about that for a long time.

[Caroline]

It's very spooky to me. You know, I always think of that moment in. In Bruges where he. If you've not seen In Bruges, this is a spoiler for the first 10 minutes of in Bruges where he shoots the little boy in the head at confession. And then they see these, like, little boy's confession. It's just like, my sins underlined. It's like being bad at maths. Being sad.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, being sad. Oh, God, it's awful.

[Caroline]

It's a perfect movie.

[Ella Risberger]

But, yeah, that bit.

[Caroline]

That bit is so devastating because it's like. Yeah, you're having to think of something sinful.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And that's exactly what I was like. I remember my first confession when I was 6. And, like, that's so young to remember.

[Caroline]

To tell what you confessed to.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, Very, very much so. Because I remember the thing I want, the thing I truly felt guilty about in my life was that not long previous to that moment, I had run away from a birthday party that was happening on my road. And then the. I kind of snuck back into my house because I just wasn't enjoying myself. I just hadn't made an Irish exit at age 6.

[Caroline]

In character. This is so.

[Ella Risberger]

I was just like, this blows. I'm out of here. And I walked home and just let myself in and I think went upstairs. And then my mum got the phone call from the mum down the road being like, we can't find Caroline. My mum freaked out being like, where is she? And then she found me upstairs and she went ape on me. She was like, that thing of, like, first of all, I didn't know where you were and you're my baby. And second of all, you've been really rude, like. And she really went off on me and I was like it was the first time my mum had ever really gone off on me for something I had done. And I remember thinking like, oh, I've done a terrible sin today. But then I. Because my, my, my first confession was not long after that. And I remember sweating in the line being like, I can't tell him that. It's too bad, he'll be scandalized.

[Caroline]

No.

[Ella Risberger]

And then I made up something about like being like being mean to my brother or something. And then I felt bad about lying about the confession all day. You see how it gets you this religion.

[Caroline]

I see how it's compelling. Yeah. It's a real cycle.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

They're always making up something else for you to converse. Which is. And I don't even think that this counts as a tangent because it's very on theme. Children are full of. Children will soon be full of sin also. It's already there. We must just cut it off before they realize it.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. So the idea, this is introduced in like the very first pages of. After Lord Asriel has shown them the severed head to get their attention. He then shows the dons these pictures. This kind of like hyper exposed photographs of the northern lights that shows kind of particles of dust. Dust with a big D that are gathering around these two people. One of them is an adult and one of them is a boy. And it's obvious that the adult is attracting the dust, but the boy isn't. Right.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Ella Risberger]

And so this is like a central kind of query of this Magisterium is that like, well then dust must mean sin. Right. It is the particles that come from space that make us commit sin. It is kind of like a parallel for original sin.

[Caroline]

Yes. And everybody has kind of a different theory on what dust is. Nobody knows what dust is. I think this is something we'll really get into when we get into the subtle knife in particular.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Which is all about. One of the many threads of the Subtle knife is a scientist in our world.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Which is what I assume is our world trying to kind of figure out what our equivalent of dust is.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I mean she knows it. She just knows it by a different name. Which I'm actually not gonna say because I think it's a big spoiler for the next book. Trust just to say that there is an on. There's kind of an answer. There's something going on. There's something going on.

[Ella Risberger]

I actually forget what, what the answer is. So it's don't spoil for me either.

[Caroline]

But. And also because the answer itself is not 100% satisfactory in that you're kind of like, okay, but what does that mean? And it's kind of like, I don't know. This is part of being an adult is trying to figure this out.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But I think what an incredible conceit for a children's book, a young adult book. Just be like, there's this substance. We don't know what it is. It's something to do with sin. And they also call it Russakov particles.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

This is to do with physics. This is to do with religion. This is to do with sin. This is to do with sex. And you're kind of on your own with that kid.

[Ella Risberger]

Kids. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

People hate it. And like, this is. What I mean is it feels like an 11 year old to read it. Is that you have the bits of world that Lyra overhears. There's a bit where she let Mrs. Coulter's house and they throw a cocktail party and people keep talking about Dust and Lyra keeps kind of inserting herself in conversations, picking up fragments of knowledge and then being moved on. And she kind of then keeps trying to say things about Dust without really knowing what it is. Do you remember that she's talking to Lord Boreal.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Who is an extremely sinister character, as you would expect. He's called Lord Boreal and he's got grey hair and a snake demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And he's very slimy and he's like, what have you been learning about? And she wants to show off and she says, dust Rusakov particles. And he's like, tell me everything you know about this.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she kind of starts this conversation and realizes that she's out of her depth and she is learning things.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

That she never wanted to know. And I. And what she learns there is that Mrs. Coulter is the gobless.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah. She is the oblation board.

[Caroline]

She is. As someone says at the cocktail party, my dear, she is the oblation board.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And someone's like, what ablation board? What's that? He's like, oh, God. The children call it Gobblers General Oblation boards. Gobs. You see?

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra hears this and is just like, I have to get out of here.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And there's a horrible little scene before the cocktail party where Mrs. Coulter wants her to take off the shoulder bag, where she keeps the alethiometer. And she doesn't touch Lyra, but the monkey tortures Pan.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Her demon tortures Lyra's demon until Lyra agrees to do what she wants. And that plus, finding out that she's the Oblation Board means that Lyra runs away.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And this is kind of a good example of what I mean about the plot being like, go to a place, Find out a thing. Go to a place which is that Lyra runs away. She gets approached by that paedophile we talked about earlier in her quest to.

[Ella Risberger]

Not that pedophile we talked about earlier.

[Caroline]

He's in it for one paragraph.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah. I think important, though.

[Caroline]

Important to be like, the world is full of danger. London is full of danger.

[Ella Risberger]

Not just this Mickey Uppy danger I've come up with, but it's a danger, too.

[Caroline]

And so she runs away from the paedophile into the net of some child catchers who. Rackets are nothing to do with the Gobblers and are nothing to do with the paedophile, but are just yet another danger.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Who are just gonna sell her into some kind of indentured servitude or something.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Just. Just another danger that.

[Ella Risberger]

Just another danger for unescorted children.

[Caroline]

And then she is rescued.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

From that.

[Ella Risberger]

By Tony Costa.

[Caroline]

By Tony Costa. I'm glad we're gonna get to talk about Tony Costa.

[Ella Risberger]

That's the first major thirst trap of this novel, I think. I don't know whether it was because I was listening to Ruth Wilson's narration and she has a particular gift for narrating men, but it was like, wow. I was all over the Kinsey scale for this fucking audiobook. But the way she narrates Tony Costa and all the Gyptians, I'm like, well, gang bang me and the Gypsians. Why not?

[Caroline]

I think it's important to say that you did text me Tony Costa. Very horny. Yes.

[Ella Risberger]

Very horny. Yes. Yeah. I bet this book birthed many a furry. There are people in conferences in Delaware right now dressed up as polar bears going by.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Jorik Vernison. My God.

[Ella Risberger]

My God.

[Caroline]

My God.

[Ella Risberger]

He's my God.

[Caroline]

Because the thing is, there's Tony Costa. But then I actually find all Egyptian men fit. Pretty fit.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. They're all.

[Caroline]

They're all trying their best. They all know how to do stuff.

[Ella Risberger]

They all know how to do stuff. They're all rugged and caring.

[Caroline]

They're all rugged and caring and also very brisk. Tony Costa is the older brother of the Gyptian boy who was kidnapped the same day as Roger.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

They have been going up and down the canals looking for him, and now they're on their way to a roping, which is essentially a big Egyptian conference in agm.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Where all the families, all the gypsy, all Egyptians go and all the families. There are six major families and they all have a chance to speak and they all basically decide like, what will we do?

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

What side politically do we take? What is our position?

[Ella Risberger]

And also it's very clear that they're like, we are a self governing body because there's no infrastructure to care for us. So we so much. Yeah. We are democracy unto ourselves.

[Caroline]

And it's a very clear democracy. Everyone gets like, all families get votes.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. John Farr is the king of Egyptians. John Farr. I thought I was getting warmed up with Tony Costa, but then John Farr came into the picture.

[Caroline]

That's why I just replied to your text with no John fa.

[Ella Risberger]

I know, I know.

[Caroline]

And John Tony class is just a.

[Ella Risberger]

Bit of a young John fa. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

John Farr is one of the Egyptian elders.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And they pick up Lyra and Lyra is terrified, but for the sweetest reason, which is that she's like, I threw mud at your boat and then I stole your boat. I was going to take the bung out of it and sink it. And it's just. And she kind of confesses this and everyone's just like, what?

[Ella Risberger]

What are you talking about?

[Caroline]

What are you talking about? There's a world war happening. We don't care that you were a bad child who used to play with our kidnapped son.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's such a. It's such an important moment and one that hits harder every time I read it because it's like, oh, Lyra's world is gone. These things that were enormous to Lyras literal turf wars where they're hurling mud at each other and having an amazing, like, riot that every single one of her concerns is now nothing. She is now on a global scale. She is doing adult work now and she has to do it all in like the innocence and body of a child.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's so brutal because it's such a sweet moment in that everybody just tells her not to worry about it and have a nice drink and just be fine. But it's also such a brutal moment in that it's like, oh, this was her big shame. And you've essentially been like, that's nothing.

[Ella Risberger]

This was her leaving the birthday party.

[Caroline]

Her leaving the birthday party. And she's like worked herself up to confess and it's nothing. Her confession is nothing. Her past is dead. That life is so gone. And she'll never get it back in any form.

[Ella Risberger]

No, my God.

[Caroline]

And so they're at this roping.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And essentially what the Egyptians have come to decide is lots of our kids have been stolen because we don't count and the police don't seem to care.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Also other kids have been stolen too. We should go and get them back.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. We know that they're in the north.

[Caroline]

We know that they're in the North. We know what the ablation board are doing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

We should go and get them.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And then there's just a vote.

[Ella Risberger]

Can you talk about the bit.

[Caroline]

I knew we were going to talk about this bit.

[Ella Risberger]

I can talk about the bit without crying. So you're going to have to talk about the bit.

[Caroline]

So picture the scene. They're all in, I guess, a big hall.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. That's what. Yeah.

[Caroline]

I can't remember what they call.

[Ella Risberger]

I was imagining a big boat.

[Caroline]

A big boat, yeah. Yeah. They don't go on land.

[Ella Risberger]

No.

[Caroline]

Like a huge boat. And there's representatives from all the families and all. I think it's all the adults, actually. It's all the adults and Lyra who's kind of like, why am I here? Am I going to be here?

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, and by the way, there is a nationwide search for Lyra.

[Caroline]

Oh, yes. Everyone is looking for Lyra because unlike.

[Ella Risberger]

All the other children who've gone missing, Lyra matters.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Ella Risberger]

Because she's a child of noble people.

[Caroline]

She's a blonde, white child of Aristocrats.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Who has been, as far as the police are saying, kidnapped from a cocktail party.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Which is such a devastating thing because it would absolutely be the case today. It is the case today. Yeah, yeah. Like if a. Yeah. If the daughter of aristocrats went missing from a cocktail party in May in Mayfair.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. One of, like, Boris Johnson's kids or something. He's got loads more. So.

[Caroline]

Sure.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah. It would be. Yeah, it would be global news. It would be global news.

[Caroline]

It would be global news. Everybody is looking for Lyra for that reason.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so Lyra's basically spent quite a lot of the journey hidden in a box, a cedarwood box, because cedarwood makes demons sleepy, which means that the police's demons can't find her. But what you don't realize is when Lyra's in the box, the Gyptians are having their boats turned upside down. They are ripping out the cushions. They are hunting everywhere for this missing girl. And it's like, oh, wow, they're really sacrificing a lot to keep you hidden.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And somebody says that. Somebody's like, they're Threatening to take our rights away.

[Caroline]

And this is what happens in this meeting. It's the same guy.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, Raymond. Raymond.

[Caroline]

His name is Raymond. And so they have this meeting, and I think it's John Farr who says, Is it John Farr who's making the speech?

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

What I propose is the Egyptians. It will take all our money. It will take our best men.

[Ella Risberger]

Some people will die.

[Caroline]

Some people will die. We will go to the north and we will find our children. And everyone's kind of like, okay, we cannot deny that our children have been stolen. This sounds like you're here. And then this guy puts his hand up and he says, but, John Farr, there are landloper children who've been took to.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Are you suggesting me go all that way to rescue children that aren't ours? Ours? And John Farr says, now, I know you're not suggesting that we fight our way through the north and all kinds of unimaginable danger to a little group of frightened children and say, only some of them can come home. You're a better man than that.

[Ella Risberger]

And then the discussion is just over.

[Caroline]

And then no one talks about it again. But he's the same guy who later on says, I'm in bits. We came to this podcast saying we're both quite emotionally fragile.

[Ella Risberger]

We're both had really, like, bad weeks. Not bad weeks, but not bad weeks. Intense, frantic chaos.

[Caroline]

And I think it's important we keep touching. Touching base with Pullman.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. We've got to touch base with Pauly.

[Caroline]

Touch base with pp.

[Ella Risberger]

Touch base with pp.

[Caroline]

Just to remind us who we truly are, which is people with demons.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

People with demons who would be brave and go on adventures. But.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. I mean, obviously it's like. Like, no, duh. You don't leave kids behind or whatever. But it's just like. It's the integrity of it all. I think there's something the older you get and the more. More of a butcher shock the world becomes is that when you see people with integrity.

[Caroline]

Yeah. To be like, we're not gonna leave kids there. We're not gonna leave anyone behind.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And there's all these people have got questions, but they're practical questions.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And then because of the way Egyptian society works, they all divide off into their six families and they're all related, sort of. Everyone knows which kind of big, broader family they belong to. Even if their individual boat is their, like. Like, I guess, nuclear family or whatever.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And they all go away and they have a big thing and they decide, like, can we back this?

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

How much?

[Ella Risberger]

Have the funds do we have?

[Caroline]

Do we have the funds and do we have the men?

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And they all come together and they decide, yes.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra's like, oh, and me.

[Ella Risberger]

And me as well.

[Caroline]

And me as well. And they're like, absolutely not. We're not taking any women.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Caroline]

Not any women.

[Ella Risberger]

They even tabled the idea of bringing women as like sort of disguised nurses. And they're like, no, too dangerous. Sorry.

[Caroline]

It's. Lyra's like, I'll be going too, actually, I have got business in the North. And they're like, frankly, no.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, you'll be staying here in a box.

[Caroline]

You'll be here with Mark Oster, who brackets, it turns out, was her foster mother when she was a baby and also loves her. Crucially, we are surrounded by adults who love Lyra, but they're not glamorous. And Lyra is unfortunately a child about to be a teenager who seeks glamour.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she's very much like, Mark Oster, love you. I will be going to the North. And everyone's like, you certainly will not be.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

So she goes and asks the alethiometer, and she starts asking the alethiometer things that people won't tell her or things that they don't know. And she said, she keeps asking it what's she really wants to help the spy. She thinks she could be a good spy because she's such a good liar. And they're like, unfortunately, once again, you're.

[Ella Risberger]

An 11 year old girl and you're not that good liar.

[Caroline]

And you're. I think she is a good liar.

[Ella Risberger]

Well, yeah, but like, you know, you're not.

[Caroline]

We're not gonna be able to send you into an army and be like, no one's gonna tell you anything. You're not a useful spy. And so she keeps asking what the spy is up to and she keeps getting these weird readings that she can't.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Explain. And then she goes, she gets this one that's like, death, Death, he's dead.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she goes to the. And she has some other information. And she goes to John Farr and Fathercoram and Fadakoram.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

She goes to FatherCoram, who is.

[Ella Risberger]

Is the eldest.

[Caroline]

The eldest Egyptian.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Who is just such a beautiful man.

[Ella Risberger]

Beautiful man.

[Caroline]

And she tells him and he's like, okay, I don't think this is correct. And she's like, please, can I come to the North? And he says once again, absolutely not. And she's like, fine. Can I at least go on deck for three minutes. And he's like, okay, well, we're in the Fens. There's no one around. Egyptians.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, fine.

[Caroline]

You've been in a box for months. You've been below decks since we left London. And she goes on deck and immediately news comes.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

That the spy is dead.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And immediately this drone, horrible drone spy flying, murdering thing comes out of the sky to try and kill her.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

There are two of them. They catch one, the other one gets away with news of where she is.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra's like, that's what the alethiometer was trying to tell me. It was trying to warn me. But I did not know what a drone spy fly was.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, exactly. And this is the confirmation to the Egyptians that she needs to go to the north.

[Caroline]

And exactly. The Egyptians are like, oh, it would be really useful to have someone who can foretell things because she came with a warning that the spy was dead and that another spy was. That one of their spies was coming to kill us. And she was right on both counts.

[Ella Risberger]

One thing I want to light on before we move on from this Egyptian section. It's a very small bit, but I thought so interesting, which is there's like a bit where. Remember that bit where he's like, should we give up Lyra? Essentially, they're like. They're tearing apart our boats. They're putting us in danger. They're threatening our lives, like. And we're stowing this child away. And they sit and johnson.

[Caroline]

Raymond again. Raymond.

[Ella Risberger]

Raymond. Though he's asking fairly, just Raymond Van Gerrit.

[Caroline]

That's his name.

[Ella Risberger]

And they say this is Lord Azrael's child. And Lord Azrael, he fought. He fight, basically. He fights on behalf of Egyptian rights in the House of Lords. Or they're. They're kind of.

[Caroline]

Very much so.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, very much so. He's like. He gave the Waterways act all these things that are like, we'll never find out what they are. But we can tell from reading them, like, oh, clearly there's a lot of prejudice against these people and very few champions of them. And Lord Asriel is one. And like, it's a. It's like because we're so unfamiliar with Lord Azrael, apart from his intense glamour and his amazing snow leopard demon that like hearing this, like, oh, wow. He's like a good guy, surely, you know, he's an explorer and he does the thing that's good. And like, it's later revealed that Lord Asriel, very bad guy in many ways. But like I think it's so amazing that Pullman, he's not interested in good people or bad people.

[Caroline]

Good things and bad things.

[Ella Risberger]

Good deeds and bad deeds. You know?

[Caroline]

Yeah. I mean that I love that part because again, it's this wider world which Lyra has no idea about.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

To be like. But also the idea that every adult in the room is not just familiar with Lord Asriel as like a politician. They're all like. And when I think it's Father Kor, I'm just. Is it far John Farr can't remember one of the two is saying this speech. And he's just like, think it were Father Coram who it were? It was Lord Asriel who fought. Who got someone off of the death penalty. Lord Asriel who kept the waterways open in. Yeah, that date, whatever. And it's like he's listing all these things and everyone's like, yeah, yeah, that's true. It's like, oh, there's a rich socio political history here which is simply not relevant to Lyra in any way.

[Ella Risberger]

But you totally believe it's real. It's. And these are real events that have. You know. You know, I mean like the. So silly to say. But like I believe that happened in ways that I don't believe everything I read. You know.

[Caroline]

And it's not just background detail. It feels true and necessary. And it's like every word is so Every word lands deep. Every bit of throwaway dialogue in this book is not throwaway at all. Every minor character. So the next thing that happens is they go to the north.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And they end up in. I can't remember what the name is of the town. Svalbard.

[Ella Risberger]

Or is Trollesund.

[Caroline]

Trollesund. That's what I meant. So where to start with Trollesund? I guess the answer is Dr. Lansalius. Is that his name? The witch?

[Ella Risberger]

Oh my God. Witch consort.

[Caroline]

The witch consul.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And he's a man who kind of treats with the witches.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But he has. No one hates him for that. It's not. And you become. You're like, okay, so the witches in this world.

[Ella Risberger]

World no.

[Caroline]

1.

[Ella Risberger]

He's like the human mortal representation of the witches. He's like their kind of diplomat. He's their diplomat.

[Caroline]

And also the witches in this world are not. They don't have the same connotations that they do in our world.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

No one's tried to burn them. And they're not against the church. They might take any side.

[Ella Risberger]

They're just they're another race, really, of kind of quasi magical beings. They are magical. Yeah. They live a really long time.

[Caroline]

They fly hundreds of years.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And, yeah, they fly on their cloud. Branches of cloud pine.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Dr. Lanzelias is very interesting to me because he's a very minor character, but I can see him so clearly. He's like a. Like a quite short, fat, pale man with like. I can't remember what his demon is, but something a bit wet.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And you just get like, oh, your whole life is in service to these great beings who think so little of you.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And you're like a doctor of something.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But it's all a bit drippy. And he has a message for Lyra. He sends Lyra out to the backyard.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. And he says, if you can locate Seraphina Pekale's broom, then you win or something.

[Caroline]

Then you're the child I'm looking for.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, okay. Yes. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she does it instantly. And he's just. Oh, remarkable. Remarkable. And he's such, like, a nothing of a character. He's so vivid to me. And when Lyra's done this little test of strength and the other, he reveals two key nuggets of information for the reader and for the characters. Which is where the children have been taken, which is to Bolvanger in the deep North. And what they do there is something called interdecision. And Lyra does not know what this means and nor do the adults. They're just like, this sounds bad.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And they just know their kids are being. And they're thinking it might be experiments. They're thinking maybe slaves. They're thinking, they don't really know.

[Caroline]

They don't know. They just know the kids are being.

[Ella Risberger]

For a purpose because what's actually happening is so unfathomably horrible to them. It is worse than death. And they would never even come up with it. You know, it's so. It's that bad.

[Caroline]

It's monstrous. But we don't know at this point, and it's important that we don't know.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And the other thing that the Witch Consul tells them, kind of in exchange for Lyra's knowledge, she asks Lyra a question that he already knows the answer to, which is something like, what are the intentions of the Tartars with regard to Kamchatka? And Lyra asked the alethiometer, and she's like, they're going to pretend to attack it, but they're not really going to attack it because they don't have enough Men.

[Ella Risberger]

Right, Right.

[Caroline]

But, yeah, And Lyra season is like, oh, you already knew the answer. You're just testing me.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And there's this kind of like, almost like a mutual exchange. It's like, oh, I'm testing you, and you're playing along. And so for that, I'll give you something else. And what he gifted them is he says, if I were you, I would try and seek the services of an armored bear.

[Ella Risberger]

Most exciting line in literature.

[Caroline]

And Lyra is like, excuse me, an armored bear.

[Ella Risberger]

An armored bear, you say? A Panzerbjornen.

[Caroline]

Panzerbjorn. And she remembers now because one of the most amazing things about Lyra being a kid is that she's picked up loads of stuff in her.

[Ella Risberger]

Sorry, that's my demon.

[Caroline]

She's picked up loads of, like, little scraps of information. She has no idea what any of them mean. So she's heard the word Panzerbjorne before, but not in this context. And they're like, there's an armored bear down the street.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, he's a drunk.

[Caroline]

He's an alcoholic, by the way. He's got no armor. He's also very violent, and he can kill anyone in a single blow. Bye. And I mean, that's the major thing they get from.

[Ella Risberger]

From Trollsens. Yeah, we get. We get Yorick Berenson.

[Caroline]

Is he the hottest bear to ever live?

[Ella Risberger]

The spawner of so many furries worldwide, this whole relationship. Something actually, Andrea Cleary pointed out on the Juvenalia podcast, because I found out after announcing this book club that apparently Juvenalia are doing an identical book club this summer. Apparently, like, yeah, his Dark Materials is just in the works. And I listened to their first episode, and I felt bad for intentionally copying the idea. But something that Andrea Cleary said that I thought was so interesting was that she ladders the strangeness or he ladders the strangeness in this book. So you get from normal people, Oxford dons, boring adults, right? And then you get Gyptians, like, ooh, kind of not magical, but super interesting boat people. Then you get witches who are like, live forever, love to fuck.

[Caroline]

They own nothing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, they own nothing. And they have beautiful lines that's like. They have sort of like huge swells of emotion over the kind of flowering of flowers and obscure mountains kind of thing. They, you know, they're so obscure and beautiful, but very real. And then that ladders you all the way up to, like, it's a giant talking armored bear who is a person. Do you know what I mean? There's a line from the third book when he's talking about those creatures in the other world where he says they're not human, but they are people. And that's a real line that stays stuck with me forever for a really long time. Is Jorric Berenson. He is not human, but he is a person.

[Caroline]

Yeah, he is a person.

[Ella Risberger]

And how I think about Sylv all the time as well. She is not human, but she is a person.

[Caroline]

She is a person.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

A hairy person.

[Ella Risberger]

No. She's so hungry.

[Caroline]

This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy to see if you could save when you bundle your home and auto policies. Try [e-mail] Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states.

[Ella Risberger]

Race the rudders.

[Caroline]

Raise the sails. Race the sails.

[Ella Risberger]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger. Wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?

[Caroline]

Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title and more. We'll even give you a $100 credit on your next campaign. Get started today at LinkedIn.com results, terms and conditions apply. Silver's Perfect. Obviously, main headline of the book club is Silver's perfect. But the relationship between Yorick and Lyra is really fascinating because, again, massive bear.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she is a small girl and they love each other instantly and very deeply. She does not try to lie to him in any way. And he is an alcoholic. Here's an alcoholic who people have been taking advantage of for years because of his rage.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah. And so they get him drunk. He's actually been exiled because he was the. He was the prince of bears and was going to be the king of bears.

[Caroline]

And unfortunately, he killed a bear. Another bear. In a. In a sex scandal.

[Ella Risberger]

There's a bear sex scandal. That's just. Completely just.

[Caroline]

And what's amazing about this book is that you do not bat an eyelid at the bear sex scandal. You're just like, oh, right, yeah, of course. That would. That would make you exile from the king of bears. That would stop you being king of bears if you killed another bear.

[Ella Risberger]

Over a she bear.

[Caroline]

Over a she bear. And there's a bit later on scandal.

[Ella Risberger]

Of the bear community.

[Caroline]

Well, there's a bit later on where Lyra's just like, I want to see a she bear.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And everyone's like, well, that's not relevant to you. We're busy. But it's. It's like, she. Bears are quite different. They have many wives. Sex scandals are very possible. And Lyra's kind of like, tell me more. And they're like, no, no, no. But just to be clear, the reason that you've got this bear now, as your friend, is because he got into a terrible sex scandal and murdered someone. I know. Everyone's like, yeah, it's a good reason for a bear and a child to be best friends.

[Ella Risberger]

That's a great reason for a bear and a child to be best friends.

[Caroline]

So she helps Iorek Bernison get his armor back, which she does on condition that he won't kill anyone. And he's like, I'm not gonna not kill someone. I won't use. I won't kill people after I've got my armor back, but I'll kill anyone I need to to get my armor. And she's like, that is fine.

[Ella Risberger]

That seems fair to me.

[Caroline]

Fair to me. He gets his armor back. He dives into the sea. He gets some seal blubber. He greases it all up, up in a frankly quite erotic way. Do you deny it?

[Ella Risberger]

I don't deny it.

[Caroline]

He's got the dead seal. He's rubbing it all into his armor so he can become huge again. And his armor is made of sky metal. We have no idea what that is.

[Ella Risberger]

No. And he's also. He's a gifted blacksmith.

[Caroline]

And what's very important is that when Lyra puts it. When Lyra sees him put it on, she's like, oh, your armor is your soul. Your armor is your demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes, exactly.

[Caroline]

And it's like, oh, people can make their own demons. Yeah, There are whole ways of people. For people to have demons. What's important is that you have a demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. And that actually brings us to the next part of the story. This is so nice. It feels very campfire tale, doesn't it?

[Caroline]

What happens next, Caroline?

[Ella Risberger]

Well, so shortly after they have this kind of small victory over the. The armor, he gets his armor back, all that. He joins the Egyptians. They continue heading to Bullfanger. However, the alethiometer tells Lyra that she has to go to this woods nearby, this tiny little vil, because there is a ghost there and she needs to go see about the ghost. Or at least that's what she thinks that the alethiometer is trying to tell her.

[Caroline]

The Gyptians, who are obviously like, we're on a mission.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, we're on a tight schedule, are.

[Caroline]

Very much like, I mean, it's a side quest. And they say, no, we're not going to go and do a side quest. We're really trying to just like finish out the main storyline of the series. And she's like, no, I actually think that it's vital. I think it's actually a key part of this quest.

[Ella Risberger]

It almost reads like Philip Pullman having an argument with an editor. Like, no, I know you think that I should have less side quests than this, but actually this side quest, like, they're arguing, the characters arguing on the page in behalf of the side quests.

[Caroline]

Yes. And as a reader, you're kind of like, it's taking us ages to get a bull Vanger.

[Ella Risberger]

Come on.

[Caroline]

What's going on in bullvanger? What is indecision? What's indecision? Where are the children? Are they alive?

[Ella Risberger]

Because we've heard this phrase intercision. And we have an idea of what it might be from being clever readers, but we don't know for sure exactly.

[Caroline]

And we're so desperate to get there. There. Anyway, Lyra's not having it.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

She's like, okay, right, you've said I can't go, but what if I take our main protector and guard, Iorek Bernison the Bear with me?

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, I'll ride on his back.

[Caroline]

I'll ride on his back. And he says he can get me there three times before moonrise. And they're like, fine, okay, okay. Lyra, you go and do your side quest.

[Ella Risberger]

Don't blame us.

[Caroline]

Don't blame us if it goes tits up.

[Ella Risberger]

And so, Lyra, it's almost actually the only plan that does go to plan in the whole book.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And so.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, God.

[Caroline]

They go. They go to the valley. Lyra is riding on your ex back. It's kind of an intense bonding experience for both of them.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because they really become best friends on this journey. They already trust each other, but this is where they're like. And we are a team.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

We would do anything for each other. They get to this village and everybody is terrified. They are the most frightened people. They are more frightened than the kids of the Gobblers. They are. They are adults who are frightened.

[Ella Risberger]

They are adults living in the woods in isolation in the frosted north. Like, they've seen shit. And they are like, we are fucking terrified.

[Caroline]

We are so scared. And Lyra's like, I want to see your ghost. And they're like, like, ghost? It's not a ghost.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, it's a boy.

[Caroline]

And they're like, L's like a boy? And they're like, yeah, you don't want to see him.

[Ella Risberger]

And he's, like, living in, like, a smoke hut for the fish.

[Caroline]

It's a smoke hut for the fish. And Lyra's got Pantalon, obviously, and Lyra and Pantal and Yorick, and they kind of. They leave Yorick, I think, at the edge of the village to kind of keep an eye on things. And so it's just Lyra and Pan, and she's got Pan. And Pan is a little mouse house into her hood and tucked into her hood. And she's. And she's just like, okay, it's the two of us now. It's you and me, Pan. Two halves of the same hole. We're best friends, and we'll always have each other. And they're so.

[Ella Risberger]

We'll never be lonely.

[Caroline]

We'll never be lonely. And you can see, like, this is a terrifying place. You're 11 years old.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

You are surrounded by adults who are so terrified by the thing you have come here to see.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Adults who are just like, I would rather die than open that door.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's just you and your tiny mouse best friend who is part of you, who knows everything. And it's just like the comfort of that little of your. Of being like, we have each other. We will never be part of. Nothing could divide us. Our thoughts.

[Ella Risberger]

It's almost like whatever is gonna happen next, I can feel it's gonna greatly italicize that sentence.

[Caroline]

And they open the door to the fish hut. And there is a little boy. And it's the little boy that Mrs. Coulter abducted nearly two years abducted in the first chapter. His name is Tony Makarios. And Lyra understands instantly what incision is and what Mrs. Coulter is doing with the children at Bullvanger. Because Toni Macharius has no demon. And he is holding a little piece of dried fish. And he is clutching it the way that Lyra is clutching Pan. But he has nothing. And he is not even. He's not a person anymore.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

He's just. He's an empty. He's an emptiness in the shape of a person. He's.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. The only thing that's human that's left in him is yearning, essentially.

[Caroline]

He's like. He's just. He's a yearning in the shape of a little boy.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

He's nothing. He's not whole. And he'll never be whole again. He's not really real.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And he's just.

[Caroline]

He's like. He's a thing.

[Ella Risberger]

He's a thing. Yeah. He's like a person. Without a face was kind of how it's put in the book.

[Caroline]

It's like seeing a person just with nothing. Not like a face that's missing, but like a person who's never had a face. Just like. Like, he's like a shop mannequin. He's like an animal.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

There's no conscious consciousness.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes, yes. That's interesting, really. Boiling down into what it is. It's kind of like a very severe lobotomy.

[Caroline]

Well, they say later on that Mrs. Coulter references zombies.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. Because that's what they call them in North Africa or something. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

But that's clearly what it is, is like he's like a zombie.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

In that he's. He's there and he's not there. He's alive and he's not alive. And Lyra is so horrified.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

As you would. She is looking into the face of a person who is alive but not alive, dead but not dead.

[Ella Risberger]

And she has this moment of, like, wanting to flee and being like, God, this is the most horrifying thing I've ever seen. But then it's like this, like, tug of empathy because, like, she knows that she can be brave because she has pantalimon.

[Caroline]

And Pan's just, like, curled around her in her hood for warmth.

[Ella Risberger]

As an ermine.

[Caroline]

As an ermine. And Pan wants to go over and touch Tony Macarios, but he can't.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because you can't touch another human being's demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

You just can't. It's the most sacred. The most sacred, the most intimate. That.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Violation. And it just would never happen. And so Lyra touches Tony and she brings him out and she says. She says to Yorick, you have to take us back to the Egyptians. And the people in the village are horrified that she's talking to Tony, the little boy.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And someone tries to say that he needs to give back the dead dried fish he's holding and to pay for the dead fish. And Lyra's like, I'm taking him away.

[Ella Risberger]

Pay.

[Caroline]

That's your payment.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like an adult woman.

[Caroline]

She's an adult woman wrangling with these, like. It is tough, tough Village People.

[Ella Risberger]

It's that moment that happens in everyone's life. And sometimes it happens in degrees and sometimes it happens all at once, depending on how lucky or unlucky you are, where experience oxidizes your youth and you become something else. And that's like a moment. And she will flip back to being childlike and playing in the Snow.

[Caroline]

But that's it.

[Ella Risberger]

But like, that's kind of.

[Caroline]

She's seen the worst thing that could. Could happen. The worst thing. Much worse than death.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, it's kind of like it's. It's like. It's more like rape than anything else.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

To go into the most sacred, the most private part of someone's life and rip it apart.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he calls the. The Fish Ratter because that was the name of his dm.

[Caroline]

He just keeps saying, where's my ratter? Where's my Ratter? And it's so heartbreaking.

[Ella Risberger]

It is one of the worst scenes in literature. It is those horrendous scenes in literally literature. It's so. But again, it's like this thing of, like, demons don't exist. I will never have one. Like. Like, this is not.

[Caroline]

If you went into that world.

[Ella Risberger]

I would. I would. But like the idea that, like, in the space of a couple of hundred pages, I can believe so deeply in the existence of this thing. And also the violation of taking that thing away.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's. It's a violation. And I think. And Lyra takes them both back to the Egyptian camp. Jorik Bernison takes both Lyra and this little boy back to the Egyptian camp. And the Egyptian camp are horrified.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, and then my favorite line of the whole book comes up. Can I say it?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Ella Risberger]

Where Iorick Berenson says, ugh. Something like, I could never expect you to show as much bravery as this child, but you should be ashamed to show less.

[Caroline]

You should be ashamed to show less. It's a book that really.

[Ella Risberger]

And these are the bravest men in the world.

[Caroline]

What I would say is it's a book that really values bravery. And I don't. I don't know that a lot of books value that kind of. I don't know that. It's a kind of cultural value at the moment. That's top of the list.

[Ella Risberger]

I mean, Gryffindor is the house everyone wanted to be in. And Gryffindor's main thing is brave.

[Caroline]

But that's also from the 90s.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like in this cultural moment, I feel like there are lot more books about kindness.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so on. This is not a kind book. People are very rarely. No one's nice.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. It's something of their. They're kind, but they're not nice.

[Caroline]

They're kind some of the time, but it's much more important to be brave and do the right thing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Even if it means like doing something traumatic and terrible. And life is full of difficult choices. But there is a real. Being brave is the most important thing. Like showing courage. Yeah, Courage and initiative and pluck and grit.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, Grit.

[Caroline]

And I think that's. It's quite of its time. I don't know. I feel like we're kind of moving slightly away or have moved slightly away from kind of being like, children should show grit and courage to a different extreme of.

[Ella Risberger]

Of.

[Caroline]

Children should think about their feelings.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's not that I think that one thing is better than the other, but it is interesting to note as a cultural shift that I think we had a real culture of like, don't cry, Pick yourself up, dust off your knees. Yes, it hurts. Don't care. Get on with the adventure. And to be like, oh, you've seen something terrible and traumatic that will haunt you forever. Well, shut up. Into a culture now that's much more about like. Like, see it, say it sorted, you know, speak. Speak your truth and you'll feel better.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, We. We have.

[Caroline]

I know. God, there's. So the thing is, there's actually not so much book left.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

That's the thing. It really. Now we get into a real click, click, click, click, click of being like, okay, so now they know they have to get with Banger fast, fast, fast. They get to Banger through a series.

[Ella Risberger]

Of yet another abduction.

[Caroline]

Another abduction. Lyra's abducted by some tat who want to bring her to Bulwanger to sell her.

[Ella Risberger]

To sell her. Yeah.

[Caroline]

She ends up at Bulvanger as a child in the Thing, which is, I think, a vital bit of storytelling by Pullman because she shows his life from the inside. And it's like a kind of horrible boarding school. It's a concentration camp.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. And that is also kind of a school.

[Caroline]

That is also kind of a school. It's just like all of these children have been gathered together because of their youth. No other reason. And they're all going to be.

[Ella Risberger]

And because of their inconsequentialness. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And so it's things like, they do art. They do.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Cutting and sticking. They play, like, lots of team sports.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra's really good.

[Ella Risberger]

You know what it really put me in mind of? Never let me go.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. It's like, never let me go because Yoshiguro book about.

[Caroline]

Yes. About the weird boarding school. It's like you're being used for something. And it also put me in mind of, in some ways, that sense of a higher power putting kids in. Like, there is an echo of, like, indigenous boarding schools and kids being taken from their families to be like, we're doing something that's ultimately very painful for you and will cut you off from yourself.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, God, yes. I hadn't thought of that.

[Caroline]

In your rhymes, your families are nothing. And you will never be the same, and you will never be whole again. But it is for your own good.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. You're going to absorb into the greater culture, but actually, we're never going to fully let you absorb into the greater culture. You will just be the these othered things.

[Caroline]

Exactly. A kind of school far away from everything that has one purpose, which is to cut you off from yourself and your sense of being.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline]

So that's kind of what I was thinking of. Lyra ends up there disguised as a child called Lizzie. And she being Lyra, is like, we are going to escape.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she starts a rumor that when the fire alarm goes, they're all going to run. And she's like, my count. She asked the alethiometer, when will the Egyptians be here? And she's like, two days.

[Ella Risberger]

Days, Right.

[Caroline]

She's like, in two days, I'm going to set the fire alarm off.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And.

[Ella Risberger]

And also Mrs. Coulter is a character on this base because, as we've learned earlier, she is the oblation board.

[Caroline]

And they all know her. They all talk about the beautiful lady who trapped them.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

It's like, is she bad? Is she good? Like, she must be bad. She brought us here.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But she's so beautiful.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. We get this moment as well where we hear overhear two kind of people who work at this facility being like, yeah, I mean, we work here, but she's into it, man. She's too into it. She's ghoulishly into this.

[Caroline]

She loves watching us cut away children's demons. She loves it. And you're kind of like, as an adult, it's like, is this sexual for her?

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It feels it. The way she's like, show me. Show me again what the children look like when we cut off.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Cut them away from their true selves and.

[Ella Risberger]

But it's like. It's the odd perversion that comes over someone who is a fundamentalist and who is. Has a sort of a perverse sense of righteousness about what they're doing.

[Caroline]

She certainly thinks she's in the right. She's not just interested. She's committed.

[Ella Risberger]

And one of the freakiest things as well is like, there's. There's a couple of, like, nurses and. And sort of caretakers. Who work there where Lyra meets them. She's like, you're not right. And they seem like oddly disconnected from their demons. And they're sort of blank. And they're hypnotized as hell. Yeah, sort of. Yeah. And I always think lobotomized whenever I think of these characters. And she learns that later on that these demons that are following them around, they're following them around like pets and not like parts of themselves. It's like Mrs. Coulter, later on when she's justifying herself, she's like, oh, so you know, this way. You know, your sin Dust can never fall on you. Sin can never form. You never get worried by all these troublesome adult thoughts. And then you have your demon like a most marvelous pet. I'd never take it away completely. You can have it. You know, it's like the way she is justifying this to herself.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And what's important is that Mrs. Coulter turns up. Obviously recognizes her own daughter is the thing. It's like, what are you doing here? We would never do this to you.

[Ella Risberger]

This will never happen to you is said several times to her.

[Caroline]

Oh, and Lyra's like, I was kidnapped and brought here. They didn't know that I was your daughter. And Mrs. Coulter's like, fantastic. Well, we've been looking at. For you. Never disobey me again.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra obviously has seen so much by this point. She's also seen some of the cut off demons who are in cages. And the cages all have their names on. And some of the cages are empty because the children have simply died. As has Tony Makarios, the little boy clutching his ratter.

[Ella Risberger]

The bit where she. Sorry, just to go back to Tony for a second with the bit where someone sort of burns the fish.

[Caroline]

Burns the dead fish to the dogs. Because he's like, I thought it'd be respectful. I didn't want him to be buried with. With his food.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, Right.

[Caroline]

And like, that's all he had. And she is again an adult. She flies at them in this rage. And she's like, that's all he had. And then she's like, give me a gold coin and your knife.

[Ella Risberger]

And then she carves ratter into the coin.

[Caroline]

That's what they do for the scholars at Oxford.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. It's. I love. She is one of the great characters of fiction. She really is.

[Caroline]

She's so important. I love that bit where this is jumping around a bit, but where Pullman's like. Lyra was not imaginative because no one imaginative could do this. An imaginative child would have thought of 300 reasons why it wouldn't be possible. But Vlaera's just like, I'm going to get Roger.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, exactly.

[Caroline]

I'm going to get Roger, then I'm going to give the alethiometer to Lord Asriel, then I'm going home.

[Ella Risberger]

The way he describes her internal processes are so interesting. The way she's quite sort of a sanguine kid. At one point when she's separated from the Egyptians, she's like, well, they're all good fighters. I'm sure they'll be fine. Anyway, back to my mission kind of thing. Even though she loves these men deeply, it really taught me that sometimes. Sometimes you get these notes in novels, a lot of being like, asking your character to dwell on things more. And, like, not only is that boring to read, it's boring to write. You know what I mean? And it's also not how, like, you people do just deal with the next day the way they deal with it.

[Caroline]

As a lifelong dweller, it was really interesting to me. And I'd read a lot of books about thoughtful kids who read a lot.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so there was something amazing about being like. And she does not read or think. Yeah, she's like. She's thoughtful, but in her own way of being like. Action.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Because, like, ultimately, Lyra's superpower are her instincts. Do you know what I mean? And that is like, more than bravery. I think that's the biggest thing to teach kids that, like, listen to yourself kind of thing, you know?

[Caroline]

And so she's in Banger listening to her instincts, where she's like, and we are going to get these kids out of here. And then she finds Roger. Yeah, she finds Roger. And he's okay. Yeah, he's okay. And like, he's not had his demon cut away. He's still got his demon, who is, of course a friend to Lyra and Pantalymon. And they're friends. I mean, what's interesting is there was a distance between them that wasn't there before because Lyra has been through so much and Roger has been kidnapped and brought to this thing. But ultimately he's not had to become a grown up in the way that Lyra is becoming a grown up.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, he is a victim of things, whereas she is the actor, which has.

[Caroline]

Always been their dynamic. She thinks of a game, he plays it. Which is a dynamic that I think most kids can relate to, is to be like, one side of the. Like, are you the person who thinks the games or Are you the person who goes at playtime to be like, what is the game today, please? And she says to Roger, we're gonna get out of here. And they do. They do. All the kids. The Egyptians come.

[Ella Risberger]

They do it. They simply do it.

[Caroline]

Lyra sets off the fire alarm. They all charge outside. There is a huge battle. Some Gyptians die. Some. Lots and lots of the Bull vanga staff die. Mrs. Coulter gets away in her zeppelin.

[Ella Risberger]

The zeppelin's in this vital.

[Caroline]

There's no planes. Everyone's in a zeppelin. It's great.

[Ella Risberger]

And the dog is trying to tell us that we've been here for two hours now.

[Caroline]

The Egyptians are like, time to go home. And Lyra's like, unfortunately, no. I have one more part of my quest.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. I must go to Svalbard. Scoresby. Lee Scoresby, who We haven't talked about someone else.

[Caroline]

They met when they were meeting.

[Ella Risberger]

The bear is a Texan aeronaut.

[Caroline]

He flies balloons. It's important to note that he doesn't love flying balloons. It's simply his job that he's hoping to do to get his. Get a farm in Texas someday. He's like, I'm an engineer and I saw this balloon. And this is my career. Lee Scoresby and Lyra kind of fall instantly alone. Love.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

He's very much like.

[Ella Risberger]

This book is teeming with father figures. Bursting with father figures.

[Caroline]

It's jam packed with dads.

[Ella Risberger]

It's a dad book. It's very. Dads.

[Caroline]

It's a dad book. It's no mums.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Mums are not good news in this.

[Caroline]

Mrs. Coulter. Mark Halster.

[Ella Risberger]

We got Mark Aston. That's it.

[Caroline]

Without wanting to get too far into it. Lee Scoresby and his beautiful hair demon. Hester.

[Ella Risberger]

Where's your spice meter? With Liskoisby. By the way. Me quite low, but I'm surprised by that.

[Caroline]

That. I'm surprised that too. I. I kind of love him.

[Ella Risberger]

Do you fancy him?

[Caroline]

No. But I do love him.

[Ella Risberger]

Great. Just want to see where we were with that.

[Caroline]

I actually don't think I fancy Lee Scoresby. I'm just like, really? In my head.

[Ella Risberger]

I should. I should fancy the Texan aeronaut who's kind of like. He kind of makes it into a Western. I feel. Right. That's what he's doing. And I just feel fond of him. I'm like, huh. Zero pulse. Pulse.

[Caroline]

Zero. Zero pulse. Whereas for the bear.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. I fucking.

[Caroline]

We'd all fuck the bear, Caroline. That's. That's a given. So he arrives nicker time. He's like, I will take you to. To Lord Asriel.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. Who is also an important thing about the bears, and there's been a lot of, like, sociopolitical stuff with the bears is that they. One of the things that they function. One of their sort of relations they have with the human world. World is that they imprison people.

[Caroline]

They imprison people and they live their own lives which are very dedicated to violence. Now, one of the key schisms in the bear sociopolitical society, we've had Egyptian political society. We've had human political society. Bear political society is currently riven by this schism.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes, Riven with the schism.

[Caroline]

Riven with the schism. On one side, you've got Yorick Bernison.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

He, as we know, is a murderer. He's caught up in a sex scandal. He thinks basically that bears should be bears. His whole deal is that bears are made to eat meat, go to war, fucking fight. That's what Iorek Bernison thinks that bears are for.

[Ella Risberger]

But there's another bear who has overthrown him.

[Caroline]

He is currently the king of the bears. What's his name again?

[Ella Risberger]

Jophor Rakneson.

[Caroline]

And he thinks that bears should be more like people.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And. And this is.

[Ella Risberger]

And he's got this, like, fucking crazy. He wants to start. He's actually. He was mentioned in the first chapter that he wants to start this bear university.

[Caroline]

He wants to have a demon. He wants a bear university. And his palace is disgusting because he's built this palace out of marble. So the bears typically live in a huge, massive igloo full of, like, dead whales and dead seals and bears just fucking and fighting in piles. That's my read on heaven.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

That's how I read on bear as well. They're bears.

[Ella Risberger]

They're not talking and fighting in piles.

[Caroline]

They're bears. They're not humans.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

People. Not humans. And they have their own way of doing things, which is like, you fight a bear, you kill the bear, you're the winner.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

You want to marry a bear? You fuck the bear, you're the winner. It's very simple and very brutal. Jofa Rakmerson has built a marble palace around the ice filled with, like, murals and things filled with heroes, but it's disgusting. So when Lyra arrives. Spoiler. Which she does alone, because she has decided the only way in to trick yo for Aknisson into being saying she's his demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes.

[Caroline]

A mad little plot point.

[Ella Risberger]

She really carries it, though.

[Caroline]

But she really carries it. So she is Walking alone, a child into this marble palace, which, as she says, is full of blood and rotting meat.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And bird and bird everywhere. It's disgusting because.

[Ella Risberger]

And flies as well, because they can't breathe. All these dead whales and dead seals and stuff. But there's no, like, ventilation. Because they're bears. Because they're bears. And so it's just like, flies, like. And they're all wearing golden armor, and it's all ornamental, but it's all blood and flies, and it's awful. And also the smell of perfume over. The smell of, like, whale blubber.

[Caroline]

Sweet perfume over. Dead. Dead whale, dead seal everywhere.

[Ella Risberger]

Horrible.

[Caroline]

It's like rot and flowers, and it's so bad. And she's just like. And I am your demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. I love you.

[Caroline]

I love you. And it's so weird. And he's like, you love me? Fantastic. And it's like something out of a very old fairy tale.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. Like a shahara's age or something.

[Caroline]

And she says, I used to be Yorick Bernison's demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But I would much rather be yours because you're so sexy and suave and sophisticated. And he's like, great.

[Ella Risberger]

She's seducing him.

[Caroline]

Yeah. She seduces him. Him.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she says, the only way that I can be your demon instead is if you kill him in single combat.

[Ella Risberger]

Yes. Yes.

[Caroline]

And he's like, okay, where is he? And she's like, coming here to get me back. He'll fight you tomorrow.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And he's like, I can kill anyone.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And so, you know, the whole time she's watching this preparation, she's like, oh, God, he's gonna kill my friend.

[Caroline]

He's gonna kill my friend because he's much bigger than my friend, and he has already banished him one time. Also, when bears fight, they fight to the death. So we, as readers and child readers are very like, oh, one of these bears is going to die and die in a fight, and we're going to see it happen. And we do. Do you remember the fight scene?

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, yes. Yes. Having just reread it.

[Caroline]

It's monstrous.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It's not a nice fight. It's not like. And they went, pow, pow, pow. And then one of them dropped dead. It's very much like, here's where the first blow hit. Here's where the second blow hit. Here's like.

[Ella Risberger]

It's like sports journalism. It feels like an old journalist, like, narrating a boxing match or something.

[Caroline]

Yes. And this is a spoiler, but it's a necessary spoiler. Of this conversation. What eventually ends it is that our friend. Our friend Yorick rips the off of Ragnarson's lower half of his jaw off. And his tongue is flapping free against his neck. No, I mean, it's a children's book.

[Ella Risberger]

Book.

[Caroline]

It was certainly marketed as a children's book. That image of a jawless being. And Jofo Ragnarson, of course, has predicated his whole thing on we can talk. So we're like the people.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And he robs him of speech. Our friend, our beloved champion, this bear who has been like, I'll go on your weird side quest with you.

[Ella Risberger]

Sure. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

I'll go on all your weird side quests. I'm your bear.

[Ella Risberger]

I'm your bear.

[Caroline]

I'm your big teddy. Yeah. And I will rip the jaw off to the death.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, God. And pluck out his heart as well.

[Caroline]

And I will pluck out his heart and I will eat his heart in front of the bears, who will then bow down to me as their king.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And that's certainly what happens.

[Ella Risberger]

And there's this part as well, where Lyra is, like. Where it feels like Yorick is losing, and she's like. She wanted to look away, but she would, like, even as he died, she will not show him anything less than, like, 100% faith in his ability. So she's like, I'm gonna watch.

[Caroline]

I'm gonna watch him kill you. Because he's, like, limping and. Oh, God. It's a brutal fight. It's probably one of the most violent. I mean, how does it stack up for you against, for example, the Hunger Games?

[Ella Risberger]

Oh. Having just reread the Hunger Games, because.

[Caroline]

I remember it feeling, when I read the Hunger Games, like, oh, this is like the bears.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, how interesting. The thing is, because there are so many deaths in the Hunger Games, and because you go into the Hunger Games knowing that you are going to say goodbye to almost all of the characters that you meet.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Ella Risberger]

You're sort of, like, a little bit numb to it. And actually, that is almost the power of the books is that, like, the capital is numb to these kids dying. And by the end of the book, you are numb to them as well.

[Caroline]

And, I mean, that's what's kind of fascinating about all of these books in the magical garbage oeuvre genre, I suppose.

[Ella Risberger]

It's not really an oeuvre, which is really just like millennials taking a walk down memory lane.

[Caroline]

The. The magicalness of it all is this sense of someone being. Of being able to Bring you into. Fully into the rules of another world without kind of. Without letting it feel ridiculous. And that goes for the Hunger Games being like. And everybody dies.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

To this book where it's like, no point in that bear fight you thinking, these are. Yeah. Talking polar bears who wear armor. And Lyra's here because she. And she wants to. To take this little boy to. She wants to take this little boy home. But first she's got to find Lord Asriel, who's being held prisoner by the bears in a. Lord Asriel's kind of conned the bears into letting him have a lab.

[Ella Risberger]

I love that he's conned the bears into having a lab. And a butler.

[Caroline]

And a butler because he's an aristocrat, and that's the rules of international law. And you get a real sense of, like, he's pulled out this treatise and that treatise and been like, this is what humans do. This is. You want to be a human. Like, he's kind of tricked them because they've let themselves become humans so they can be true. But at no point in any of this mad shit of being like, there's the Northern lights. There's a bear. The bears are fighting, and they've got this magical gold compass that needs to go up here and all these bits at no point, you like, this is weird and stupid. You're just, like, fully committed to. Totally ripped his jaw off. And now I am king of the bears. The bears tear down at Marble Palace. They return to being bears. Real bears, not fake bears who want to be people. And Lyra and Roger go to Lord Asriel's house, his pr.

[Ella Risberger]

His quote unquote prison, where he is a butler and a living room.

[Caroline]

And Lord Asriel opens the door.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline]

And Lyra is standing there, and he shouts, I did not send for you. Get out. Get out. Not you.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra's so upset.

[Ella Risberger]

She has gone through hell and high water to bring her to her dad. Yeah.

[Caroline]

To be like, I'm an adventurer like you. I'm an explorer.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she's just like, what? And then Roger comes up to, like, be next to her. To be like, oh, my friend is sad. And he's like, oh, never mind. Oh, yeah, there's two of you. Come in. Then, of course, have a bath. Have a bath. Have some food. And Lyra's like, oh, okay. He must have got over his shock at seeing me quite soon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah. And Roger immediately is like, your dad's looking at me weird. Your dad's weird.

[Caroline]

And she's like, the thing is, ultimately, you're a kitchen boy, Roger, and I'm smart. And she reverts to this dynamic of being like, which I had kids to be. Like, I'm actually so clever and funny, and you're my friend. I'm kind of the main character here.

[Ella Risberger]

You're kind of the other one.

[Caroline]

You're kind of the other one, and I'm kind of.

[Ella Risberger]

You're kind of overstepping here, Roger. This is kind of a me moment. You're kind of making it a you moment.

[Caroline]

Exactly. And Roger's like, I don't know, Lyra. I don't know that this is about you. Your dad isn't looking at you. He's looking at me a lot. Like, he is a wolf and I am a rabbit. And Lyra's like, I'm here with my dad. Yeah, I brought my dad.

[Ella Risberger]

She goes into the living room with him, and, like, they go to sleep, and they have a big sort of, like, mano y mano talk.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Big conversation. She gets like. You know, he really talks to her. And she's like, yeah, this is what I thought it would be.

[Ella Risberger]

And she, like, makes the decision to talk to her.

[Caroline]

Like, she's an adult, and she loves it. She's laughing it up. And she's like, and here is the thing. I brought you and tries to give me an Ethiopia. And he's like, oh, I think it's probably yours. And she's like, what? Excuse me, I came here on a mission. He's like, yeah, you totally came here on a mission.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she's like, but I had to bring you the thing you needed. And it was this. And he's like, I think you should keep it.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. Yeah, I don't really much need it.

[Caroline]

I don't know how to read it.

[Ella Risberger]

Anyway, the kind of. One of the more chilling things about this conversation is that he is. He is being honest with her, and he's being. And she tries to sort of be emotional with him. And he's like, well, if you're going to be hysterical, it's very like men talking to. If you're gonna be hysterical, we're not gonna have this conversation. So she's forced to have this conversation on his terms, basically, as academics, essentially. And it becomes very clear that, like, he does not give a fuck what's happening with the oblation board.

[Caroline]

He doesn't care.

[Ella Risberger]

He's like, oh, that's pure your mom. That is. That's so your mom.

[Caroline]

He's Just like, that's Marissa for you.

[Ella Risberger]

Wouldn't be my thing.

[Caroline]

Always cutting children in half.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Oh, you know how she gets with her funny little ways.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's a bit, like, not my taste, but, like, not my taste, but I understand the grift. Basically.

[Caroline]

He really respects the grift, but he's not interested in chatting about it. Also, he knows all about it. And he's not fussed.

[Ella Risberger]

He's not fussed.

[Caroline]

And Lyra's kind of like, you should be fussed. And he's like, oh, no. I'm actually more interested in a much more important thing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

There are whole cities in the sky, Lyra. I'm gonna get there.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And she's like, oh, okay, cool.

[Caroline]

Okay, cool. And she's.

[Ella Risberger]

We're like.

[Caroline]

She's kind of like, me and my dad will cross the rainbow bridge and we'll see the UN Universe. We're off on a great adventure. And if you have read a lot of children's books, you're kind of like. And that's the end.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And there's not that long left, so it feels like the end.

[Caroline]

It feels like the end.

[Ella Risberger]

So this is like, maybe an epilogue. Sure.

[Caroline]

She found her dad.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

She's brought him the golden object, and now he doesn't want it. And he's being weirdly cagey. And Roger's freaked out.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Anyway, she goes to bed, wakes up. No Roger, no Dad.

[Ella Risberger]

And the servant is freaking out, and.

[Caroline]

The servant. The beloved servant who Lyra knows.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Does she? Yeah, she's met him before.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh, God.

[Caroline]

And the servant's like.

[Ella Risberger]

He's waking her and being like, I'm freaking out, man.

[Caroline]

I'm freaking out. I shouldn't stop him.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she's like, what do you mean? And he's like. He's taken the boy. And I was like, roger, why? And suddenly Lyra puts it together, which is that to get to those cities in the sky, Lord Asriel needs an immense source of power.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And the most powerful thing in the world, the thing that can generate the most energy, is severing somebody from their demon, a child from their demon. And Roger is missing.

[Ella Risberger]

There's like an instant burst of atomic.

[Caroline]

Sort of an instant burst of atomic energy.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Roger is missing, and Lord Asriel has taken him. And Lord Asriel is going to do what Mrs. Coulter has been doing at great scale. But personally.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

For his own selfish ends. Not because he thinks it's good, not because he cares at all. Not caring that it will kill Roger and leave him dead or worse than dead. He's going to do it because he wants it.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because he's got a higher purpose. Because he, in his academic and infinite wisdom, has decided this is the right. This is the thing I want to do. And I don't.

[Ella Risberger]

And it's important, actually. It's the most important thing there is.

[Caroline]

The most important thing there is, is that I do my great work.

[Ella Risberger]

And on some level, like, removing yourself from how we feel about Roger and what we know about intercision emotionally about this book, it's like he wants to basically abolish the church. Right. Like, he wants to discover more worlds and to have, like. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And to sort of do away with death.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. He wants to end death and free all the souls of heaven.

[Caroline]

And he's like, one kid. It doesn't matter.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra's like, unfortunately, one kid matters the same as all the kids.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, that's very much the message of this book. It's like one kid is everybody's kid.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

If you do it to one.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

There's no such thing.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And. Yeah. And.

[Ella Risberger]

And then he straight up kills Roger. Roger, who we've done this whole journey to get to find. He kills him.

[Caroline]

He kills him. And. And it's.

[Ella Risberger]

It's dealt with so quickly, so briskly, and. Because, like, we're not even given time to mourn Roger. Not that we, like me personally, don't give much of a shit about Roger, but I care about what Roger means to Lyra. You know? You love the passage there.

[Caroline]

Well, yeah, because it's more complex than that. In that Lord Asriel's demon is biting Roger, is holding Roger's demon in her jaws and is crushing it. It's crushing her. And Lord Asrid is there, and there are wires. And above him is this unbelievable spread of the northern lights. And in northern lights, Lyra can see a city. And she knows that it is another world, a parallel world to our own. And she tries to pull Roger away. And I had sort of forgotten the nuance of reading this, which is that Lyra. Lyra is kind of responsible because the snow leopard's got Roger, the demon.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra tries to pull Roger, and there is an avalanche. And they both fall. And Roger's still connected to all these wires. And the demon's connected to all the wires.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And they pull the sky apart. They pull the sky apart. And in the sky is Mrs. Coulter. And the aurora swayed above its continual Surging, flicker, picking out now this building, now that lake, now that row of palm trees so close you'd think you could step from this world to that. Lyra leapt up and seized Roger's hand. She pulled hard. And then they tore away from Lord Asriel and ran hand in hand. But Roger cried and twisted because the leopard had his demon again. And Lyra knew that heart convulsing pain and tried to. To stop. But they couldn't stop. The cliff was sliding away beneath them. An entire shelf of snow sliding inexorably down the frozen sea. A thousand feet below Lyra heartbeats tight clutching hands. And high above the greatest wonder, the vault of heaven, star studded profound, was suddenly pierced as if by a spear. A jet of light. A jet of pure energy released like an arrow from a great bow shot upwards. The sheets of light and colour that were the aurora tore apart a great rending, grinding, crunching, tearing sound. Reaching from one end of the universe to the other. There was dry land in the sky. Sunlight. Sunlight shining on the fur of a golden monkey. For the fall of the snow shelf had halted. Perhaps an unseen ledge had broken its fall. And Lyra could see over the trampled snow of the summit the golden monkey spring out of the air to the side of the leopard. And she saw the two demons bristle, wary and powerful. The monkey's tail was erect. The snow leopard swept powerfully from side to side. Then the monkey reached out a tentative paw. The leopard lowered her head with a graceful, sensual acknowledgment. They touched. And when Lyra looked up from them. Mrs. Coulter herself stood there, clasped in Lord Asriel's arms. Lyra, helpless, could only imagine what had happened. Somehow Mrs. Coulter had crossed the chasm and followed her up there. Her own parents together and embracing so passionately. Her eyes were wide. Roger's body lay dead in her arms. She heard her parents talking.

[Ella Risberger]

So to just be like, okay, Roger's dead. Dead. That would be enough. Roger's dead and we've split open the sky. Fine. But then also the way that there's no time to even mourn Roger. Because Mrs. Coulter and Lord Azrael are just going at it like they're like.

[Caroline]

Why shouldn't I kiss? Lyra thought it seemed more like cruelty than love. And looked at their demons to see a strange sight. The snow leopard tents. Crouching with her claws just pressing in the golden monkey's flesh. And the monkey relaxed, relaxed, blissful, swooning on the snow. Then come with me. Away and out of this World. I daren't. You dare not. Your child would come. Your child would do anything and share shame her mother. Then take her and welcome. And Lyra realizes they both hate Dust.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Lord Asriel wants to kill God. That and stop dust. And Mrs. Coulter wants to stop Dust touching children. She doesn't want to abolish it altogether. And Lyra, with that perfect simplicity that. It's real kid logic. It's just like, I hate them, they hate Dust. I love Dust.

[Ella Risberger]

Right? Yeah.

[Caroline]

I need to find out more about what Dust is.

[Ella Risberger]

But this thing of like, we're so unclear as to what their relationship is. Mrs. Coulter and Lord Asriel, but in another way we know exactly what their relationship is. This sort of like. Like odd lusty urge to crush one another at all times.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It's so sexy. It's so dangerous and sexy in that it's almost like a game to them. Like what turns them both on is immense world crushing power.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And what they both love about the other one is their desire for power.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah. And like there's a moment where he's like, come on, let's do it together. And she's like, like, no. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And Lyra can see that she's crying.

[Ella Risberger]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I think there's something. I mean, what is there to say really? What is there to say that isn't in that thing about watching the snow. Watching the snow leopard, like, massage the monkey. Like the snow leopard and the monkey. There's so much fur happening and the monkey's like swooning on the snow. And it's like, if we can get.

[Ella Risberger]

Away from the poetry of the words for the moment and the amazingness of the plotting and how incredible it is to finish the. Publish a book like this. Do you think that when people fuck, the demons fuck too?

[Caroline]

Yeah. Not fck, but I think that they're like. It's like twining around each other. You know what I mean? Just like. I think that's. I think that's pretty. I don't think that's it, but I think that's the beginning of it.

[Ella Risberger]

I still feel like, unclear about what Lord Asriel's beliefs actually are. Or is it just not really a belief system, more of an urge to dominate and destroy.

[Caroline]

Oh. I feel very clear on Lord Asriel's beliefs.

[Ella Risberger]

Okay, go on.

[Caroline]

I think he really means what he says. I think he thinks that he's the cleverest boy who's ever, ever been alive. Like Caroline, you've met boys who think they're the cleverest boy to ever live. And you can see them doing it like. And the thing is, Lord Asriel is very clever. He is, he's a good, powerful, he has good instincts and he's done things and he's kind of gone against the grain of. With the Gypsians. People were like, you're crazy to support the Egyptians. One of the teams, I don't know, I wasn't in the parliamentary meeting.

[Ella Risberger]

It's the John Cleese effect, isn't it? When you're a young outspoken bohemian at a certain stage of life and then you mature past it and you think that, well, my instincts were right before and everyone thought I was wrong and the tide of history has gone with me. So therefore everything I'm right about, everything I think is right always.

[Caroline]

Everything I think is right always. And it's like that like thing where like I really think, think Asriel does think to destroy God would be a huge life changing, would change the world forever. And it's the. He will lead the great battle. Like this is a world where you have to kind of.

[Ella Risberger]

But what does he mean when he says destroy God? I guess we'll get into that with the later books.

[Caroline]

I think we have to get into that with the later books. I think to ask a question, what does it mean to destroy God? At the end of a two hour long podcast, I think is pushing it. I think we've pushed our luck far enough, so.

[Ella Risberger]

Oh yeah, we definitely pushed our luck with the studio and definitely with the.

[Caroline]

Donk who's very so what it means to destroy God.

[Ella Risberger]

So guys, this has been the June book club. We'll see you in July. We'll be revisiting the question what does it mean to destroy God?

[Caroline]

Answers on a postcard if you have them. Yeah, write in. Write in at the usual PO box and we'll be reading out the best answers to win a badge.

[Ella Risberger]

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