Magical Garbage: Mermaids with Katherine Webber

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sentimental Garbage – "Magical Garbage: Mermaids with Katherine Webber"

Release Date: May 22, 2025
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Katherine Webber
Podcast: Sentimental Garbage
Platform: Hosted on Acast

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1. Introduction and Announcements

Caroline O'Donoghue kicks off the episode with an enthusiastic announcement about the return of Sentimental Garbage to the Union Chapel on June 14 for a special launch event celebrating her new book, Skipshock. She shares her excitement about performing in one of her favorite venues again, promising a blend of the podcast’s typical fun and debauchery mixed with magical conversations. Notably, the event will feature tarot readings by Jen County and performances with Alex Haddow, promising an unforgettable evening for attendees ([00:33]).

2. Welcoming Katherine Webber

As the episode transitions into its main content, Caroline introduces her guest, Katherine Webber, lauding her as "the most enviable hare in the ocean" ([01:30]). Katherine expresses her excitement to delve into the topic, setting the stage for an engaging discussion on mermaids.

3. Mermaids in Childhood and Culture

The conversation begins with reflections on childhood fascination with mermaids. Caroline mentions various mermaid representations her listeners have requested, from Aquamarine to The Little Mermaid and the Australian TV show H2O ([02:15]). Katherine echoes this enthusiasm, highlighting the universal allure of mermaids across different cultures and generations ([03:03]).

Caroline draws parallels between mermaids and vampires, noting their timeless presence in pop culture and their embodiment of impossible love stories ([03:37]). Katherine agrees, adding that both creatures possess an animalistic quality, blurring the lines between human and animal ([03:46]). They discuss the inherent challenges in portraying mermaid relationships, questioning how such unions could function logistically ([04:04]).

4. Mermaids Through Different Lenses

The duo explores mermaids from three distinct perspectives:

• Child's Lens: Mermaids symbolize magic and beauty, representing a child’s first immersive experience with water and self-expression through elements like "mermaid waves" and colorful accessories ([05:15]).

• Adult Female Lens: Mermaids are idealized beings embodying unattainable beauty standards, blending childhood fantasies with adult desires for power and sexuality ([05:35]).

• Male Lens: Discussions touch upon the rarity of male mermaids, or mermen, and their often overlooked presence in mermaid narratives ([05:50]).

Notable Quote:

Katherine Webber ([05:16]): "There's the child lens, the adult female lens, and the male lens."

5. Katherine Webber’s "Captain of Fate"

Caroline shifts the focus to Katherine's latest work, Captain of Fate, a standalone spin-off from the Twin Crowns series featuring mermaids ([11:03]). Katherine provides insights into the creation process, emphasizing the complexities of developing realistic mermaid characters. She discusses the challenges of making mermaids appear otherworldly without falling into clichéd tropes, such as the "Born Sexy Yesterday" archetype seen in films like Splash and The Little Mermaid ([11:12]).

Katherine highlights how Captain of Fate attempts to subvert traditional mermaid narratives by portraying mermaids as powerful and intelligent beings rather than naive creatures dependent on humans ([11:42]). She shares a bit about the book’s plot, where a captain seeks a magical cure to save his sister and encounters a formidable mermaid who is part of a sisterhood of mermaids with her own agenda ([11:17]).

Notable Quote:

Katherine Webber ([11:42]): "I wanted the mermaids to feel kind of otherworldly. And I think a lot of times in mermaid pop culture, we talked how it's kind of like the Born Yesterday. Like, they show up on land, and they know nothing. Like Ariel."

6. Mermaids and Feminist Theory

Caroline delves into feminist interpretations of mermaids, discussing how traditional mermaid stories often center around male sailors and portray mermaids as saviors or objects of desire, perpetuating problematic power dynamics ([20:00]). Katherine concurs, linking mermaids to symbols within the trans community due to their hybrid nature and the metaphorical representation of gender fluidity ([31:39]).

Notable Quote:

Katherine Webber ([20:20]): "I think that mermaids as a sign for trans people makes a lot of sense. And also kind of, you know, I wonder if there's that something that, you know, mermaids, that kind of... they are seen as kind of hyper femme."

7. Historical and Modern Professional Mermaids

The discussion transitions to the history of professional mermaids. Katherine introduces Annette Kellerman, recognized as the first professional mermaid, who was not only a pioneering swimmer but also broke societal norms by wearing one-piece swimsuits without pantaloons in the early 20th century ([33:11]). Caroline adds that the tradition continued with establishments like Weeki Wachee in Florida, where mermaids perform intricate underwater acts requiring exceptional swimming skills and breath control ([36:00]).

They explore the modern resurgence of professional mermaiding, fueled by social media platforms like Instagram, which have made the profession more visible and glamorous despite its high costs and physical demands ([37:01]). Caroline expresses admiration for the dedication of professional mermaids who invest significant time and resources into their craft, highlighting the blend of athleticism and artistry required ([38:01]).

Notable Quote:

Katherine Webber ([37:26]): "When you are performing and you have that magical moment where there is, you know, a child maybe who thinks they're a mermaid or maybe not even child. They're like, I am a mermaid right now. Like, that is why they're doing it."

8. Comparative Analysis of Mermaid Representations

Caroline and Katherine compare various mermaid narratives, including Splash, Aquamarine, and The Shape of Water. They critique how different stories handle consent, autonomy, and the portrayal of mermaids. For instance, Caroline criticizes Splash for its problematic depiction of a mermaid's immediate dependency and lack of agency when she appears on land ([28:25]-[28:50]).

Conversely, Katherine appreciates Aquamarine for its more nuanced portrayal, where the merman is not a mindless savior but a character with his own motivations and complexities ([46:25]-[47:38]). They also touch upon The Shape of Water, discussing its take on mermaids as more powerful and less dependent on human intervention ([51:12]).

Notable Quote:

Caroline O'Donoghue ([28:25]): "She totally lacks the ability to consent properly, which is deeply problematic in the way that a lot of films in the 80s were, and mermaids specifically."

9. Mythological Context: Selkies and Naiads

Expanding beyond mermaids, the hosts discuss other water-based mythical creatures like selkies and naiads. Caroline reflects on selkie stories, which often involve themes of entrapment and loss, contrasting them with the more aspirational portrayal of mermaids ([55:10]).

Katherine expresses her preference for selkies despite their darker themes, pondering the potential for reimagining these myths with gender reversals or deeper societal metaphors ([56:25]). They explore how different cultures adapt these myths, emphasizing the universal human fascination with water creatures ([58:00]).

10. Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks

As the episode nears its end, Caroline and Katherine reflect on the enduring allure of mermaids in storytelling and their significance in representing complex human emotions and identities. They advocate for stronger, more empowered representations of mermaids that move beyond traditional tropes and offer richer, more diverse narratives ([68:03]).

Caroline concludes by expressing her admiration for those who dedicate themselves to professional mermaiding, celebrating their commitment and artistry.

Notable Quote:

Caroline O'Donoghue ([69:03]): "We love you mermaid girls."

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Key Takeaways

• Mermaids as Multifaceted Symbols: Mermaids represent a blend of childhood wonder, adult aspirations, and complex gender identities, serving as metaphors for various human experiences.

• Evolving Representations: Modern narratives are shifting towards more empowered and autonomous mermaid characters, moving away from the "Born Sexy Yesterday" trope.

• Cultural Universality: Mermaids and similar mythical creatures are present in diverse cultures, highlighting a shared human fascination with water and the mysteries it holds.

• Professional Mermaiding: The resurgence of professional mermaiding underscores the blend of performance art, athleticism, and dedication required to embody these mythical beings.

• Intersection with Feminism and Trans Theory: Mermaids serve as powerful symbols within feminist and trans communities, representing fluidity, strength, and the challenge of traditional gender roles.

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Listen to the full episode on Acast to dive deeper into the magical world of mermaids with Caroline and Katherine!

Transcript

[Caroline]

Race the rudders. Race the sails. Race the sails. Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?

[Katherine Weber]

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[Caroline]

Hello there. I just wanted to pop in before the podcast starts with a very exciting announcement, which is that Sentimental Garbage is coming back to the Union Chapel on June 14 for a launch event from my book Skipshock. I'm so excited to be invited back to the Union Chapel. It's one of my favorite venues I've ever done. It's such an amazing space and honestly, last time we went was probably the drunkest I've ever been on stage in my life. This time we're coming back to promote my new book, Skipshock. It's a little bit of a launch event, so it's going to have all the kind of fun and debauchery of a regular Sentimental Garbage live with a little bit of a magical chat thrown in. It's also going to be the Sentimental Garbage live debut of our good friend Jen county, who will be doing some tarot business on stage, while Alex Haddow, who always does the live shows with me, is going to be there as well. And we're just going to have the best fucking crack on stage. I cannot wait to do it. So it's June 14th, the show, the tickets are in the show notes, and I can't wait to see you there.

[Katherine Weber]

Foreign.

[Caroline]

Welcome to Magical Garbage, the podcast where we want to be, where the people are. My name is Caroline, and I lure sailors to their watery death. And joining me is the most enviable hare in the ocean. It's Katherine Weber.

[Katherine Weber]

Thank you. I'm very excited to be here.

[Caroline]

Today we're talking about mermaids.

[Katherine Weber]

So fun. Mermaids as a concept. What could be more fun?

[Caroline]

It's been so fun approaching all the people I know who kind of write fantasy about this series because I've gotten responses as like, specific as like the Red Wall series and mice and swords and everything. And as broad as you just saying with big, bright Californian eyes over the brunch table, mermaids.

[Katherine Weber]

And you're like, right, let's dive in.

[Caroline]

Let's go, let's dive in. I love this because I'm very often on the podcast. I've had people request the movie Aquamarine. I've had them request the little mermaid. Sometimes H2O for our Australian listeners, the TV show.

[Katherine Weber]

They do love you in Australia. Hello, Australia.

[Caroline]

Hello, Australia. This is a very Australian centric podcast. I think it will be, but. Sorry, I just said that, like Yoda. Very Australian podcast. I think it will be. But I always, you know, something I frequently reject when on normal sentimental garbage is getting too specific about kids stuff because I feel like sometimes the things don't benefit from over analysis because they're made for children. But taking mermaids as a whole category is fascinating to me.

[Katherine Weber]

And they're grown up, as you now know, like from watching mermaids are. You know, mermaids can be sexy, mermaids.

[Caroline]

Can be grown up mermaids. I did not realize until I watched the film Splash can be incredibly troubling.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, very. There's a, you know, there's a whole run the whole gamut. And you know, I think it's interesting, you know, we mentioned this briefly already, but like, to. To think about how mermaids kind of shaped, you know, our. I think specifically our generation from like, you know, youth with the Little Mermaid all the way through, you know, how it's in pop culture and stuff now.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Because they're these kind of things where they're a little bit like vampires in that they never truly go out of fashion. They're always cooking in the background. But they do have moments where the popularity of them spikes exponentially.

[Katherine Weber]

And I feel like they're like vampires because they're kind of like animalistic as well, and they're all like, senses and stuff. And they actually are more, you know, are they animals? Are they people? Fish.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And they also, again, like vampires, they represent an impossible love story. Right.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes. How are you gonna do what? How is it gonna work? Are you gonna be in the ocean? Are they gonna come on land? Are we gonna have a split situation?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes. No. I very much have thought a lot about the logistical issues of a mermaid relationship.

[Caroline]

Well, that's the thing. It's like you see a mermaid in any kind of either a classical illustration or Disney cartoon or Splash or whatever it is, you see it. And first and foremost, there are these, like, figures of beauty. It's always the long hair, the shell bra, all of it. And then the next thought is, well, how.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, how does it work? How does it work? The logistics of how it works. And like, I also enjoy how mermen are like the footnote to mermaids.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

Like, Doug, we're here too. Don't worry.

[Caroline]

As I've learned over the last 24 hours, for my real Quite literal mermaid deep dive. The, the male professional mermaid community. They, they, they are, they're there, they're valiantly wanting to be acknowledged.

[Katherine Weber]

All right, we ack for any of our male mermaid men. Listening, listening to this. I wanna. Were you a mermaid girly? Like growing up, were you like, did you splash around in the pool pretending to be a mermaid?

[Caroline]

No.

[Katherine Weber]

No. Oh my gosh. It was like my favorite game with my friends. You get and you decide like what color your tail was, what color your hair was gonna be. I'm surprised that you weren't into this. And then you would do the, the aerial swoop where, you know, you'd get your hair wet and then flip back.

[Caroline]

I do think what's so interesting about. Because like there are three basic, you know, lenses on mermaids.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

There's the child lens, the adult female lens and the male lens. Right. Or the male gaze, whatever. And for the child kind of gaze, it's like the first time you get into a body of water and you like submerge your head and you feel your own hair. Oh, it's magical around you, like kelp. You're like, I'm a mermaid.

[Katherine Weber]

It's the best. It's truly the best. And then like also I think it's, you know, as young girls too, you're seeing all of these kind of like, you know, women as how they're supposed to, you know, mermaids are seen as almost idealized beauty, which is an insane beauty standard to have because no one's gonna be half fish.

[Caroline]

Exactly. It's already impossible.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And they're like, it's very interesting. So if we start with the kind of the child, the little girl's mermaid, and then we'll progress through the other kinds of mermaids. There are, there are so many. There are so many. But the little girl mermaid, what she sees and what she can attain when she's sort of trying beauty for the first time is like that texture your hair has when you undo it from a braid.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes. Oh, mermaid waves.

[Caroline]

I love mermaid waves. A babylous mermaid wave. It's like getting going on holidays and getting a little colored sort of braidy thing in. It's a little bit of a shell necklace. It's a smudge of blue.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh yeah. Some little sparkly eyeshadow.

[Caroline]

Sparkles like it's this.

[Katherine Weber]

Even a bikini top, I think. Yes.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Right. Like even now, like if you'll go on holidays in any country in the world, you will see a five year old with a little mermaid, little purple top on Exactly. And, like, I think it's like this strange place when you're growing up where your child self, like your My Little Pony sort of pink Sparkles innocent self, begins to grow and meet the woman you kind of want to be. Because it sort of. It takes all the My Little Pony beauty of, like, pink hair and sparkle. Sparkle and everything, and it slowly morphs it onto the woman you think you could possibly be. It's a really interesting. It's a hybrid just like mermaids, you know.

[Katherine Weber]

And it's bizarre to me that mermaids are aspirational. And I'm also curious why, like, you know, why don't we fixate on, say, like, centaurs or, like, even fairies? You know, it's like, no, mermaids are a thing that kind of, like, they last. Although you do get, you know, people. Adults now especially. I also later on, we get further on discussing. As they get older. I want to talk about how, you know, if we're thinking about the Acotar bat boys and mermaids with tails, why do we all love, like, these, you know, creatures?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

Anyway. But. But back. Yeah, I agree. When they're. When you're like a little girl, it does seem quite, like, aspirational. And I think you're right. I think it's when you get in the water, like, you can't. All right, so say you love a fairy. You can't, like, really pretend to fly like you sort of can. You can hop around, jump on a trampoline. But there is something. I think you're so right. Like, when you get in the water, you're like, I could be something else. Like, it feels magical and exciting or.

[Caroline]

Like when you sort of, like, play with water as a small child and it feels like kind of, you know, when you kind of skim your hand across and it sort of vortexes around you a bit.

[Katherine Weber]

Feels magical.

[Caroline]

It feels so magical. And it's sort of the only. It's one of the few times you feel like you can access that kind of magic.

[Katherine Weber]

I agree. No, absolutely.

[Caroline]

To answer your earlier question, I wasn't a particular mermaid kid. And I think only because I think, like, the Little Mermaid is a real activation point for our generation. I didn't have that on vhs. And I do think your life is defined by what VHS you had.

[Katherine Weber]

Absolutely. I had a Little Mermaid sleeping bag when I was, like, six. So, you know, I was. I was destined to be a Little Mermaid girl. I think Prince Eric was my first big Disney crush, so.

[Caroline]

Really? Yeah. Was it because he had a great Dog.

[Katherine Weber]

Great dog. And great hair.

[Caroline]

Great hair, great hair.

[Katherine Weber]

And, you know, he was kind of nice. Nicer than a lot of them.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And he looked kind of a Prince Harry as well, in that he was a prince, but also, you know, doing some military work and an active prince.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. And kind of a himbo as well, which we love, which we enjoy. Okay, but you were saying. So you didn't have a little mermaid, so what was your, like, mermaid equivalent? What was your, like, imagination play?

[Caroline]

Interestingly, I was really deep into fairies.

[Katherine Weber]

Okay. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And by that, I specifically mean the kind of the. The sort of tradition of the. What was the cottingly fairies, or whatever it's called. Those girls who sort of fool find fairies.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, the little tiny ones, yes.

[Caroline]

Those Victorian girls who kind of fool the world into believing that they, you know, had fairies in the bottom of the garden because they kind of used some new photography tricks.

[Katherine Weber]

I saw an interview with one recently. Like, one of the older women. She was like, no, I still believe that we did see them. Like, she really. She is sticking to the story. You should get her on the pod.

[Caroline]

She's still alive. She's like a Victorian lady.

[Katherine Weber]

Hold on, hold on. Maybe it was record of her when she was older. I saw a recording of her that was in color. So she was alive recently, whatever her name is. Wherever you are out there, it's like.

[Caroline]

When you see those videos of, like, survivors of the titanic in the 70s being interviewed, you're like, that can't be.

[Katherine Weber]

How is that possible?

[Caroline]

You can't be in glorious Technicolor. You were on the Titanic.

[Katherine Weber]

She's still alive. She's still kicking around. You're like, that's impossible. I don't know. Maybe. Wait, but I love. Okay, so you loved fairies, but you can't. You don't want to, like, be a fairy. I don't know. Maybe you just want to find them. Like, what was the. Or did you pretend you, like, play fairy?

[Caroline]

I think I wanted to find them. I wanted to be a trusted consort, of course, A trusted link to the human world. Yes. You get a fairy on the pond. I think that was a big part of it. I think I wanted to. And maybe every sort of fantasy play is endemic to some kind of belief about the self or some longing in the self, you know? But like I said, I think I wanted. I think I felt very lost in the shuffle at home, and I wanted something to recognize me specifically as and.

[Katherine Weber]

Welcome you to this hidden world. Everything is an opening to hidden world, whether it's A mermaid being like, come into my magical kingdom. Or like the fairies being like, we will show you.

[Caroline]

We will show you our magical kingdom.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes. Oh, the joy of being shrunk small.

[Caroline]

To be shrunk small. To be tiny.

[Katherine Weber]

To be little.

[Caroline]

To sort of to drink dew from a little pod. Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

So magical. Be a little. And then maybe like ride on the back of a. Like a crow or something. You know, maybe a nicer animal than a crow.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. And sort of a dormouse for a steed, you know. Lovely.

[Katherine Weber]

So exciting.

[Caroline]

And so was mermaid play. Actually, we should. Before we get into your specific mermaid entry, we should cite your sort of credibility in this era.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes, I am.

[Caroline]

So you have written your latest fantasy book. Captain of Fate is a mermaid tail.

[Katherine Weber]

It has a mermaid on the COVID And it, you know, I will say I really enjoyed writing this mermaid book. Never again. Because the logistics of mermaids, like, Caroline, how do they talk? They all have to be. They can't be like, I'm underwater. They have to be telepathic. Also, you know, we think about. When you're talking about the shell bras, if you were mermaid, you would be boobs out. Like, you know, but this is a YA novel, so I have to have them, you know, semi decent.

[Caroline]

Just.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, the logistics. What do they eat? Like, there's, you know, are they carnivorous? Are they eating other fish? Are they. There were so many logistical things that I had never thought about for a mermaid that I had to figure out for this book. But, yes, it does have a mermaid in it. It is about a captain who goes on a quest to find a magical cure to save his sister. And on his way, he meets a mermaid. And she's kind of got one of a. She's got a sisterhood of mermaids. And they're more of the kind of murderous mermaids. I like when mermaids are in the water, they're more powerful. So this mermaid is in the water. She is powerful. She is a hunter. She kind of senses him. And I think with mermaids, any mermaid love story. And we talk about splash. We talk about, you know, any of the ones that we're gonna talk about. I think the reason they have to have that almost love at first sight. Cause it's like, what else? What else is there? So I have kind of my. What. I tried to get around with it. There's a bit where some of his blood gets in the water and she smells it kind of like a vampire or a shark, and she's like, oh, that. I want that because I Was like, how do I figure, you know, why does she decide to save him? She needs to have a reason. But I think you think about like splash. Like, you know, the way the girl saves him. Right? Like, why? How do mermaids decide who they save, who they call into the sea? Like, what is it? I think it just has to be like pure attraction immediately based on, you know, just a draw.

[Caroline]

Beautiful.

[Katherine Weber]

Thanks, thanks. Appreciate that.

[Caroline]

I love that. I love when someone takes something, you know, it's existed for thousands of years. Like we've got like mermaids existing in Greek mythology. We have like, literally every culture has a version of this. You know, Irish, the Irish people obviously have selkies, you know, which is. Obviously it's different. But like, once we're getting sort of water dwelling, hybrid woman creature sort of, we're in mermaid territory as far as I'm concerned. But like when someone takes something so old and with, with which so many variations exist, and then they sort of decide what their own spin on it is.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. And mermaids are fun like that. And you know, and I write about dragons for middle grade. And I think what's fun about mythical creatures is you can really put your own spin on it. Like, I'm like, this is my mermaids. These are their magic powers. They can sing down storms. You know, these are my creatures and they can do this. You know, who's. Who's gonna tell you that you're wrong? Yeah. Gonna be like, nope, you got that. Mermaid fact incorrect. But I did wanna make sure that their hair colors and their tail colors went together nicely. I had a friend, I'm not very visual, so like, I had friends sit down with me and we went through loads of color swatches to see what looks nice. Cause you can't do. You know, I wasn't gonna do straight up Ariel. That's too, it's too derivative for me. So my mermaid has blue hair and a purple tail. That was my main mermaid, but her sister mermaids all have different ones. And even though it's YA novel and it's got like four teenagers, older readers, it did unlock this small child me, when I'm like, what color hair would they have? What color eyes? What will their powers be? It was very fun.

[Caroline]

So. So to get back to our kind of earlier conversation, you were a mermaid kid then?

[Katherine Weber]

I think I was very much. I grew up in Southern California, so I was in the pool a lot. Yeah, I'm not a very good swimmer. I should be a better swimmer. And I wonder for me also the aspirational bit about being a mermaid. Just being able to be like, I could swim forever. I would not be scared about being drowned by a rogue wave. You know, I think that was very appealing to me.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And so was the writing of this book. Did it feel like a wish fulfillment for the child that you were or did it kind of come upon you of like, hang on, it turns out I'm really fucking interested in mermaids.

[Katherine Weber]

I'm really into mermaids. You know, it was, it was funny. I was chatting recently, the audiobook was just recorded and the male narrator was like, so are you like really into mermaids? I was like, no, it's not like a weird.

[Caroline]

It's not like weird.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, come on now. I'm a fantasy writer. So the main character, this is a spin off novel from Twin Crowns and he has referenced a mermaid. And so that was kind of like already there. Sorry.

[Caroline]

Twin Crowns is the series that you write with your sister in law, Katherine Doyle. Very successful, very popular, very wonderful.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, thank you.

[Caroline]

Thank you everyone. Check out.

[Katherine Weber]

Thank you for that. So this is Captain of Fates is a standalone spin off so you can read it by itself. But if you've read Twin Crowns, you might recognize some of the characters in it. So we knew there was gonna be a mermaid and writing from the POV of a mermaid was really interesting. Cause again, I wanted them to feel not human. And that's tricky when you're trying to figure out how to do that as a writer. Cause it's three POVs. It's him as a boy, which was also hard writing a like a 20 year old man, like perspective. You do this very well. You're very good at writing, you know, in your upcoming YA novel, you do excellent boy pov. But you know, I was like, you know, he's always like, I'm yearning. Respectfully, you know, I wanted to like make, you know, and especially when it's a mermaid, like there is. This is a slight spoiler. There is a kiss, but it's very solidly. It's in the water. It is above the waist. Not because of any prudish reasons, but I'm like, I can't. Does he have a fish fetish? Like what does it. Where does. It gets weird very fast. But yeah, so I loved writing from the perspective of a mermaid. I loved, you know, kind of thinking, how am I going to make her sound quite weird? Like I want the mermaids to feel kind of otherworldly. And I think a lot of times in mermaid pop culture, you know, we talked how it's kind of like the Born Yesterday. Like, they show up on the, like, you know, on land, and they know nothing. Like Ariel.

[Caroline]

Yes. Let's, like, land on this trope a lot, because I only kind of learned this in the last kind of year or so by watching YouTube video essays, which is my main hobby. That's not doing this. But there is a trope that we call Born Sexy Yesterday. And you see it in the Fifth Element. You see it in the Little Mermaid. You see it in Splash of like, a creature, a woman creature who has. Is, for whatever reason, new in a human body, and she can't. She does not understand the ways of the world, and she's just sort of dumb.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. And she depends on the man so much. She's like, I literally have no clothes. I've rocked up naked, and I know nothing. I depend on you for everything, and I'm in love with you. And I'm so much more interested in mermaids when they're in the sea and they're powerful. So I. My take on it. She's in the sea, and he is the one who is out of his element when he's in there. And she speaks. She speaks his language. She can do magic. You know, she can't walk, but she can do everything else. Whereas, you know, again, it's that whole that, you know, you see so much, like you said, the Born Sexy Yesterday. You do see it sometimes with men when it's in. What was that Hallmark one where the snowman was turned into a love interest? Have you come across this? Oh, my gosh, Caroline. This is very much, I think, up your street and up sentimental garbage street. It came out this last December. It was called, like, Hot Frosty.

[Caroline]

Yes. Yeah. Was that what it was about?

[Katherine Weber]

It was about a snowman who. This girl, this woman is grieving and she puts a scarf on him, and he becomes a very handsome man. Immediately sewn as naked as well. But he also knows absolutely nothing. And everyone was like, this seems inappropriate. People kept saying, imagine if it was switched. But it's switched all the time with mermaids.

[Caroline]

It's switched all the time. And something you pointed out as well is elf is another situation.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

He's not. He's not sexy.

[Katherine Weber]

No.

[Caroline]

But somehow he ends up with Zooey Deschanel. Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

And he seems like a child. Weird that the men, when they know nothing, they are coming from the frosty ice and the women are coming from the sea.

[Caroline]

Yes. As above. So below. It all works out.

[Katherine Weber]

Going back to your original question, I did really Love writing from the perspective of a mermaid. And it did feel like kind of getting in touch with my, like, inner child, but also, you know, I wanted her to be. She's a grown mermaid. She's a sexy mermaid, but not born yesterday sexy. She is smart and intelligent and strong. I think the strength of mermaids is so appealing, but they lose it when they go.

[Caroline]

Go on land, and that's very interesting.

[Katherine Weber]

Why do they want to go on land? Why are they all obsessed with it? Why would you go where, you know, nothing?

[Caroline]

What? Why? Why? And this is the, this is the part of Little Mermaid that. The most famous part. I mean, obviously it's wall to wall bangers. I have no, I don't have that much like, child attachment to it because I didn't see it enough as a child. But whenever I see it now with my niece or whatever, I'm like, this bangs.

[Katherine Weber]

The songs are so good. They're so excellent. And it's funny when you go back to it. Like, I think she's meant to be like 16. Yeah. So young.

[Caroline]

Yeah, so young. But the. I mean, the song that obviously makes me and every other woman cry is the. I want to be where the people are.

[Katherine Weber]

Part of your world.

[Caroline]

Part of your world again, moron. When it comes to the mermaid. But the, the whole kind of framing of Ariel is about sort of breaking away from a patriarchal kind of controlling.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes, her dad's very controlling.

[Caroline]

And the bit of like bright young women sick of swimming, ready to stare. I mean, come on.

[Katherine Weber]

I love that I didn't join in because I can't sing, but I enjoyed that very much.

[Caroline]

You can sing in this podcast.

[Katherine Weber]

You can, you can sing. And I think there's. Speaking of. I've got to do a shout out for the Little Mermaid, so. You can't write a book with a mermaid without referencing the Little Mermaid. There is a scene that is beat for beat stolen from the film. It's when. So he. In my book, the mermaid sisters call down a storm and my main character falls into the sea and my mermaid saves him. And it is literally beat for beat from the Little Mermaid, but from his perspective. So.

[Caroline]

Well, this is kind of like feminist theory of mermaids. There's a lot of feminist theory around mermaids. I've been learning where that, like so much of the classic mermaid lore is that man, sailor man, Popeye, sailor man is put in danger by the wretched sea. And then the mermaid decides to help him and then they fall in love. And then the rest of the narrative is her Sort of like the man is so angry about the natural order of things being up unsettled by her saving him, that it's like the rest of it will be torture for her.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, that is interesting also, do you think I. For me, I think the sea has a real female energy. What do you think? I'm not into Poseidon as controlling the sea. What. What is your take on the sea itself? Female or masculine?

[Caroline]

Sea is a woman, right?

[Katherine Weber]

Exactly.

[Caroline]

1000% C is an angry woman.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

But then, like, it's like, you think about how, like, it's. So we. We all know the kind of. The basic story of, like, where mermaids came from and, like, the idea that, like, men were just at sea for ages. So long for. So not even. Just like, men were at sea for, like, you know, 14 months at a time or whatever, but men were at sea for, like, thousands of years. Like, we are so in the kind of a recent. A very, very recent part of human history where we're not depending on the sea for all travel everything, all trade and everything. And, like, having the main spine of our culture be like, men go to sea for a while and bring stuff back. Yeah, stuff and people back. And the, like, the. The idea that, like, just men alone for months and months and months with nobody thinking of, like, well, what if there's a gala? What if that sort of, like, seal I can see looking at a rock at the dimmest edge of my foggiest horizon.

[Katherine Weber]

What if I can hook up with it?

[Caroline]

What if I could hook up with it? It's, like, so cute. Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

No, and it's also. Well, I was looking into kind of like the history of mermaids or. And apparently one of the earliest kind of recorded mentions of it, it's in Beowulf, and it's his mom, but she's a sea hag. I don't know my Beowulf very well, so that's all I will say about that. But I think it's interesting that it started as a sea hag and then it got transitioned into this beautiful.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Cause there's like a whole. There's a whole cast of.

[Katherine Weber]

I just like that they see the tail and they're like, oh, I bet I can always see the tail. But I bet the top part has boobs. That's the dream. I also am interested in sirens versus mermaids. Mermaids tend to save sirens, you know, sing you to your doom.

[Caroline]

Death.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, sirens started as half bird. And then somewhere along the line, people are like, no, Actually, let's do more fish instead of bird.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Like there's also this thing. I'm like, so if the kind of. If the child sort of gaze all around mermaids is like this sort of. Again, they're these hybrid creatures and it's sort of this kind of thing of like the hybrid of childhood and womanhood.

[Katherine Weber]

Right.

[Caroline]

It's like you're able to encroach into those things.

[Katherine Weber]

Like a YA novel.

[Caroline]

Like a YA novel.

[Katherine Weber]

I have to give a shout out for Caroline's upcoming YA novel, Skipshock, because there is a scene that really captures the. I'm not a girl, not yet a woman. That is so perfect. I screenshot and sent to her. So you know, it is. There are no mermaids in your book, but there is the spirit. The spirit of the mermaid is there?

[Caroline]

Yes. Thank you so much.

[Katherine Weber]

You were saying captures mermaids. Capture that element.

[Caroline]

I like that you plug my book on my podcast.

[Katherine Weber]

It's so lovely. Your book is really good. It deserves it. It deserves it. But yeah, we're saying. So the mermaids are the. A mermaid is a YA novel.

[Caroline]

Yeah, mermaid, yeah. This kind of hybrid sort of fantasy of what your kind of your aesthetic as a child meeting your desired aesthetic as a woman. I think anyway.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes, exactly.

[Caroline]

Like, of what you think, like. Cause like when you think about, you know, in general, like for the kind of the very bog standard CIS female girl who's just like, I have my little Pony and I have a Barbie and I think about what kind of woman I'm gonna be and it's like she's so. She's got her big old tits out. She's like, oh, you're like, yeah, I want to have a big tits in a shell bra. And by golly did I get them. And the long hair and the sort of like the idea of kind of the mermaid glitter and the color and everything it is and the power.

[Katherine Weber]

There's something you can as a child, you can recognize that they're like seductive.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

What is that?

[Caroline]

That exactly, exactly that. And it's like I can make her safe by putting her sort of pink strands through her hair, but I can make her powerful and sexual too. And it's sort of. You're rising to meet that sort of female part of yourself. But there's also. There's like. There's this, the male gaze on mermaids as well, which I think partly it's that thing covered in splash of like, you know, the born sexy yesterday thing. What if this sort of like creature, this beautiful Creature came on land and just for some reason had legs and obsessed with you immediately and depends on you for everything.

[Katherine Weber]

This is movie Splash with Tom Hanks from 1984 and Daryl Hannah, where Daryl Hannah appears exactly as Caroline just said. Just in case anyone is not familiar with the movie Splash.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Katherine Weber]

Would you recommend it, Caroline?

[Caroline]

I did not like was one of those movies where because I'm like, writing so many scripts at the moment as the movie opened, I was like, this is a perfectly script. This is like the example of how movies kind of used to be when they were, like, for everybody and perfectly scripted and perfectly shot. Because just like, there was less of an error, less of a margin for error and fewer things in general. Fewer movies in general. And it's like, it's really smart as a whip, that movie. But then once the actual mermaid stuff started, I am sorry to say I could not, even for the sake of research of this podcast, finish it.

[Katherine Weber]

You know what? I think that is fair. Like I said, I hadn't seen it in years. I'd seen it as a child. Who showed it to me as a child? I don't know, but I, as a kid, loved it. I loved Daryl Hannah.

[Caroline]

I thought she was. I can totally see that. I can totally see that.

[Katherine Weber]

I like Tom Hanks. Tom Hanks always felt quite. I love Tom Hanks films as a child. I think we were talking about that, but I was always. For me, the scariest part was. So there is a bit. Sorry for Spoilers for Splash, where this.

[Caroline]

Researcher discovers her and like, yes, played by Eugene Levy.

[Katherine Weber]

It's so good. And he exposes her and they put her in a tank and they're going to do experiments on her. And as a kid, that for me was just. I was terrified about that happening. What if there was a real mermaid and they got caught and that would be what happens. And you think about, you know, kind of the merman equivalent, I guess we have is the shape of water. You know, they're gonna try to put him in a tank as well. It's very scary.

[Caroline]

And we have that movie at the moment, Death of the Unicorn, which is kind of. I mean, this is a big trope of, like, we find the magical creature in here and we destroy it. Like it's King Kong as well. It's everything. There's always this moment where, like, civilization meets the raw and the natural and except exploits it, which is what we do.

[Katherine Weber]

So true. You know, but two part. I know you did, because as we were mentioning with Splash, there's a first Scene. So she saves him as a child. Which also that opening scene is quite weird because she's like a sexy baby mermaid. Yes, it's weird. It's weird. I had forgotten how weird it was till I watched it. And it's in the sepia tones. And I was like, this is weird. And then he.

[Caroline]

And that part didn't even bother me that much because I'm like, you know what? Children have crushes on each other. And that's fine. And it's fine to see a child through the lens of another child, I think. You know?

[Katherine Weber]

And then he falls off a boat again. I mean, Tom Hanks, I can't even remember the name of. What is his name?

[Caroline]

Tom Hanks is always Tom Hanks.

[Katherine Weber]

Tom Hanks.

[Caroline]

Unless he's Forrest Gump.

[Katherine Weber]

His brother's name is Jimmy. I remember his brother's name is Jimmy. But yeah. So he falls off the. Is Forrest Gump born sexy yesterday?

[Caroline]

Yeah, a little bit. Here's the thing about. Here's the thing about. For some reason, a lot of Tom Hanks's early work.

[Katherine Weber]

Big.

[Caroline]

It Big interesting motives around consent in early Tom Hanks movies. E. G. We all know big because he's sort of mentally a 13 year old and he ends up having sex with some adult woman, which is very strange. Splash, as you say, he for a second time falls into the water. He is saved by the same mermaid that saved him with a child.

[Katherine Weber]

Because I think she'd scented him. I think she literally. That's how she found him.

[Caroline]

She scented him.

[Katherine Weber]

I think mermaids must have really strong senses. This is my.

[Caroline]

Of course. They must do. Yeah. And then, you know, she saves him. Whatever. She washes up on land. They're on this beautiful island. They kiss. Yum yum. They have this protracted fantasy romance. But what made me so fucking uncomfortable is that, like, I am okay to an extent with the born sexy yesterday trope. As per. Like the Fifth Element, right? Because she's there to save the world and Bruce Willis must accommodate her. And they have a kind of a kiss, I think. But the first thing that basically happens in this romance with Daryl Hammond, Tom Hanks is he just like, you can't speak, you are totally naked. You've been taken to a police station because you're quite clearly mad or you have missing faculties. I will take you back to my apartment and fuck the life out of you.

[Katherine Weber]

I think the not speaking thing. And I wonder if that's a reference to original Little Mermaid not being able to speak. I wonder if that's why in Splash.

[Caroline]

I get it.

[Katherine Weber]

They took her. Well. But I. And luckily, she does learn to. In defense of Splash, she does learn to speak. And I enjoy that she named herself Madison after seeing a thing. Oh, yeah.

[Caroline]

Nice.

[Katherine Weber]

But, yeah, no, it is deeply problematic in the way that I think a lot of films in the 80s were, and mermaids specifically.

[Caroline]

But sure, we can say, like, such and such is problematic, but for the most part, when people. We say that, I don't really feel it. I'm just citing it for the good of you.

[Katherine Weber]

But this. This shit really was.

[Caroline]

This shit really upset me because there's this thing that. I mean, I guess there's a kind of a version of the uncanny Valley that happens, right? Because, like, when it's happening in the cartoon, in the Little Mermaid, it doesn't really raise my hackles at all.

[Katherine Weber]

They're also not having sex. See, there's a whole song about kiss the girl, but, you know, kiss the girl.

[Caroline]

Don't take her back to your apartment. And like. And like. I mean, obviously the Splash, Daryl Hammer's character, she's extremely willing, but that does not mean she can consent.

[Katherine Weber]

And also, she's. He asks no questions. When they see each other in the. In the police station, she just kisses him immediately. And he's like, great, here you are. You have just appeared. And then if you can get through it, what's really interesting is later on when he finds out she's a mermaid, he's, like, mad at her.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

Which is upsetting. And then he's got his jerk brother, who is. That guy's always playing that same bass.

[Caroline]

John Candy. You put some respect on John Candy. The King of Poker. Pocapoca.

[Katherine Weber]

Sorry. But he's like, you know, take. You know, he's kind of seen as this womanizer, and he's like, no, you've got a great, gorgeous woman who cares that she's a mermaid. And it's funny that he's seen as the voice of reason there.

[Caroline]

Well, this is interesting. So the scene that I got to was. So he sees the tale for the first time, and there's this moment of kind of revulsion. Right.

[Katherine Weber]

Which, you know. Fair.

[Caroline]

Fair.

[Katherine Weber]

If Gav could turn to a merman, what would you. How would you feel?

[Caroline]

How.

[Katherine Weber]

Let's think on that.

[Caroline]

I think it would suit him.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Yeah. You know, I think it would suit him. Why do we still get, you know, dick and balls?

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, yeah. It's. Where. Yeah. Where do those come from? Oh, man. The eggs.

[Caroline]

Which we'll get to the pisces.

[Katherine Weber]

In a minute and just, you know, trying to think about how mermaids are, you know, reproducing generally. Do they lay eggs? Do they have live birth? What is happening?

[Caroline]

I always. I favor the egg option myself. Yeah, Anyway, sorry, I favor the egg canon.

[Katherine Weber]

I interrupted you when you were saying. So he spies. He spies the tail.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And. But, but, but. And there's that moment of, like, revulsion or whatever. And. And there's also this moment where. Which I think is very relevant to how you see mermaids now sort of have become a real icon of the trans community. And there is this moment where he says, I don't care whether you were married and whether, quote, you used to be a dude or whatever, I don't care kind of thing. And you could say that's like a real. Of course, that's a real 80s sentiment of, like. That's the kind of. The Funniest thing an 80s 90s screenwriter can grab for is you used to be a dude. But there has been this real adopting, like, even the sort of trans rights charity is called Mermaids. Right. Because there's this association of, like, the sense of the hybrid, the sense of the other, the sense of, like, being a woman but whose genitals may not necessarily match that of a CIS woman.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, that is what it is. And I know. I remember a trans woman friend saying to me, she was like, well, you know, the little Mermaid, all she wants is to have a vagina yearning for. So I identify with that. And I was like, oh, yeah. I think that mermaids as a sign for, you know, for trans people makes a lot of sense. And also kind of, you know, I wonder if there's that something that, you know, mermaids, like, that kind of. A lot of them are seen as kind of hyper femme. And if you are wanting to, you know, inhabit that as, you know, a body, it makes sense, I think.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And it also makes sense of, like, to kind of feed it back again through this male gaze of, like, having you get these moments of panic from male characters when they realize that, you know, obviously the fishtail or whatever. But there's something interesting there around the taboo we put around trans bodies within. Within culture, or we historically have, you know.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, no, absolutely.

[Caroline]

It's fascinating.

[Katherine Weber]

Mermaid. So much unpack.

[Caroline]

So much to unpack. But then we. Then we arrive then at, like, just the adult women who still want to be mermaids.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes. And who are professional mermaids. I follow many, many of them on Instagram. When I started writing this book, I was like, I Gotta get eyes on the, on the real mermaids, see what they're doing.

[Caroline]

The real mermaids are fascinating to me.

[Katherine Weber]

The tails are so expensive. So expensive. So. And you have to be really a strong swimmer. There was one. I felt she just gets, I say she gets shipped around because I'm just imagining her with her tail. I realize she takes it off, but she goes to hotels all over the US and is like poses in their swimming pools. And I think the hotels are paying her. I'm unclear. Exactly.

[Caroline]

Yes. Okay, so I watched the documentary, two episodes of, I think a four part documentary called Merpeople Amazing on Netflix. And Netflix I have many criticisms of and some of them I have voiced on this podcast before. But what Netflix does really, really well is like a niche sports documentary. No one does is one of the mermaids called a danger art. And it is a danger art.

[Katherine Weber]

It is a danger art. You could drown so easily. No, it absolutely is a. It is a sport. You gotta be very strong. Very.

[Caroline]

So the deal with these people is I'm gonna give you. I mean, you discovered an amazing woman, the kind of the first professional mermaid. Can you remind me who she is?

[Katherine Weber]

So her name is Annette Kellerman and she is known as the first professional mermaid because she was this incredible swimmer. And she was also pioneering synchronized swimming and crucially was also one of the first women to wear a one piece swimsuit without pantaloons. So she was doing. The reason she became such a good swimmer was she had a damaged leg when she was born and so her parents got her into swimming. She became this incredible swimmer and she also had this incredible physique. She was, I think they said like in like 1912, some like prestigious university, I want to say like Harvard or Columbia, someone did a study on the most perfect specimen of a female body. Because, you know, that's not problematic at all.

[Caroline]

It's fine.

[Katherine Weber]

She, out of 3,000 women, she won. And they said it was because she looked so much like the real version of the Venus de Milo. And you're like, again, like Venus de Milo. There's no head, it's just a body. Again, lots to discuss there. But she started, she would be in movies. She was also the first woman to be in fully nude in a movie. So obviously she was very in touch with like her body and you know, as her body as strength. And then there was a biopic made of her called Million Dollar Mermaid by another incredible actress who her movements playing Annette were actually used to inspire a lot of the movements of the animated Ariel in Little Mermaid.

[Caroline]

Yes. And that was Esther Williams, right? Yes, exactly.

[Katherine Weber]

So, yeah, so she. I found, I just discovered Annette Kellerman. Now I am obsessed with her just as a. She was kind of seen as the first real life mermaid and she was Australian. Hello Australia. Hello Australia.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And then that sort of inspired. I mean the Esther Williams thing is the, the kind of. The aqua ballet that it was called, that was kind of very popular towards the end of the 40s of like we all kind of know the reference point, even if almost no one has seen the movies themselves. They're always these things that are referenced in other things of like diving beautifully, the diving beautiful and the synchronized and the. Yeah, the sort of. That was the kind of beginning of professional mermaid Dom. That then this. I was completely fascinated by and is covered in the Merpeople documentary again. I cannot recommend this documentary enough. I loved it. It's this place called Weeki Wachee. Are you, are you familiar with this as an American? No, just as an American.

[Katherine Weber]

As an American who likes mermaids.

[Caroline]

As an American. Weeki Wachee. So in the 50s and 60s, this kind of sort of this natural spring in Florida that they made into a resort and it was employed there. These were mermaid women, professional mermaid women. And they had the tails and everything. And it was incredible extreme sort of commitment to the fantasy at Weeki Wachee. So what would happen is that these women would. In their, in their sort of tails and bikini tops, they would enter through a tunnel. They would swim through a kind of like a 10 foot tunnel. That looks so scary. Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

Again, great lung capacity.

[Caroline]

Huge.

[Katherine Weber]

Very impressive.

[Caroline]

Huge. They dive in, dive in from that access point, go through a tunnel, then swim into an airlock where they will take their oxygen or whatever and then they will kind of shoot up to the tank where they will give a short performance and then they will kind of switch out and then more mermaids will follow. So these performances that you don't even.

[Katherine Weber]

See them getting in the water, you just see them appearing?

[Caroline]

No, no, they have to just simply appear, which is so much part of the magic. Right. And then you take that like this sort of profession, while always niche, has really exploded in the last few years. Really. I think obviously social media and like the, the sort of craft around the tales and the sort of, the look has really increased and like you can get why people that would. Very photographable. Right?

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. And I think now especially with you know, like you're saying social media with like Instagram and you know, everybody can be like, you know, when I was growing up, if you were like, oh, I want to do a really cool, like, photo shoot. Like, you had to be, like, a legit famous person, maybe. But now you're like, you know what? I'm gonna put on mermaid tail, and I can go out on the beach and I can take gorgeous photos and I can put them on my Instagram.

[Caroline]

Right.

[Katherine Weber]

But, you know, we are, for better or for worse. But I, you know, there's a cosplayer who I adore. Hello, Rosa. And she has done some cosplay as my mermaid, and she went to the whole rocks and did the whole thing with the whole tale. And as an author, I was like, this is one of the greatest moments that has ever happened. Not only are you cosplaying, you are cosplaying a mermaid, and that takes effort.

[Caroline]

Cosplaying a mermaid is enormous effort at any kind of level. If you're doing anything below the waist, even if you're just, like, going to a costume party as a civilian and, like, putting on a little narrow.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

A little scoochy, it's still a commitment.

[Katherine Weber]

I love mermaid look. I'm doing, for the launch of this book, the theme, as I was saying to you, it's a mermaids or. Well, it's shipwreck chic or mermaid glam. Shipwreck chic. I mean, pirates. And I have a mermaid outfit. And yeah, it is like, I was talking to the makeup artist and she was sending me, like, okay, what eyeshadows? You know, what do you do? I'm going to do pearls again. The aesthetics of a mermaid, very appealing. Although, again, would it really work in the water? We'll circle back to that. But, yeah, what you were saying. So they were. They come up the full commitment.

[Caroline]

The full commitment to the bit. And these women who are still around are just obsessed. Obsessed with their, like, they're like old pageant winners. Do you know what I mean?

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Similar vibe, but with an extreme. And it's also. There's a real element of drag to this. And I think, you know, as a real, Like, I have watched every single season of Drag Race, and it's like. It's like too much of a commitment. It's my Coronation street, you know? But I am obsessed with anybody who, like, sacrifices so much of their life and will, in the case of many of these modern mermaids, their life is, like, not glamorous. And in fact, they are bankrupting themselves for a profession that there is not enough work to go around for the amount of people who want to do it. And the work Is extremely hard. Like, you have to be like an Olympic level swimmer, for one. You have to be able to. It's like the backwards in heels thing, right? You have to be able to be Olympic level swimmer in full glam and have your eyes open under the water and to, like, blow kisses, like, to the audience under the water and not have bubbles go up your nose and have controlled breathing. It's insane. And there is no work for these people.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. And also, you know, a lot of people, I think, are snarky about it, of course. You know, and it is.

[Caroline]

People are trying hard.

[Katherine Weber]

So court are snarky and it's a skill. And I. God knows I could not do it. But no, I think you're saying. I do think mermaids. So we recently, for my daughter, we got a fish tank. So I'm really in my fish era right now. It was fishmas this year for Christmas. And we got guppies who are, I think, the drag queens of the sea because they have amazing tails. But the male fish look better. So we only have male guppies. We call them all female. They're all. They're all drag queens. There are drag. Cause they've got these incredible tails and looking so glamorous. Yeah. No mermaids. I think mermaid, like, aesthetics and drag are very closely aligned.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

High drama. But I imagine that they do. Imagine if you're like. I think for that, I would imagine. I've never been a professional mermaid. But, you know, when they are performing and they have that magical moment where there is, you know, a child maybe who thinks they're a mermaid or maybe not even child. They're like, I am a mermaid right now. Like, that is why they're doing it.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And they.

[Katherine Weber]

It's like performing. It's like being a ballerina. And for them, I guess it's that, you know, they're doing. Instead of doing the pirouette. They are. I'm moving my arm.

[Caroline]

But it is kind of underwater ballet. And like, you see, God, there is this. I mean, anyone can fall for an underdog narrative, no matter who it is. But, like, there's this. There was this mermaid. She's from Albuquerque.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, there's no oceanside.

[Caroline]

I know. It's landlocked. Good for her.

[Katherine Weber]

I love it.

[Caroline]

Good for her. And like you. Her name is Mermaid Sparkles. And you see her, like, you know, packing up her mermaid stuff into a car and then, like, driving outside a child's birthday party who happens to have a pool in their backyard. And, like, she's high she's slumped low in the car. Cause she doesn't want the kids to see her walking on her human legs. She gets to the party, right? She. She's got an assistant, like, who's dressed as a pirate, who's, like, zipping up her tail. The zip breaks. He has to drive back 30 minutes to her house to get her spare tail while she sits hiding in the, like, little conservatory area, crying while the children, like, climb on top of chairs to try and see why the mermaid's so sad inside.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, my goodness.

[Caroline]

Heartbreaking cinema. When you see mermaid sparkles later, get her victory.

[Katherine Weber]

It is so satisfying.

[Caroline]

Powerful cinema.

[Katherine Weber]

I wonder. I think we're talking about adult mermaids as well, and adult professional mermaids. I think there's two strands kind of like much with mermaids generally. I think there's the ones who do the children's parties. And I think there. There's a lot of overlap between professional princesses who I also think work very hard. And then I think they're the professional mermaids who are going more sexy, more purposeful, who do, like, more of the, like, glam shoots. And obviously, I'm saying, you know, one can be both. You could do a child birthday party and then go do a rock photo shoot. As in rocks. Not as in rock music, but laying out on the rocks by the sea. But I'm intrigued by that. Just like, you know, and it just, like, again, it feels like mermaids, again, are that constant, you know, overlapping of, like, girlhood and womanhood.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And it's one of those things where, like, you talk there, you know, obviously. I've now watched so many interviews with these. There's so many talking heads through this thing. And, like, there is never really any specificity on, like. Like, if you wanted to have, like, beautiful moments where you, like, suspend a child's disbelief for 10 minutes, you could be a princess and walk on your own. But, like, it's like, like, why are you, like, putting yourself through this, like, unbearably difficult thing? It's not only really tough on your body. Like, these people have sinus infections and everything. Water going up their nose. They're like. It's. These tails are really heavy, tough on the body. There's no work. And it's so expensive to do. And just to see anyone commit on that level is so moving to me.

[Katherine Weber]

I love that. I love people who are, yeah, absolutely committed to their hobby and that they love it so much. And like, yeah, no, I definitely need to watch them this documentary because it sounds amazing and I sound like a.

[Caroline]

Total shill for those documentary.

[Katherine Weber]

I am in my mermaid era. I am intrigued again, because going back to mermen, I don't think mermen are getting hired for children's birthday parties.

[Caroline]

They are not. Yes, they are not.

[Katherine Weber]

Where are they? Like, what is. What roles are they taking?

[Caroline]

Well, if I may quote the documentary to you once again.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes, please. Because we'll talk about.

[Caroline]

I don't sound like an employee of Netflix.

[Katherine Weber]

We're here for it.

[Caroline]

Interestingly, there was two mermen who were profiled on this documentary, Merpeople. And one of them was a. Like, he. He is a. He used to work at Weeki Wachee As. And then, because it was having too tough a strain on his body, could no longer work there. So now he owns a kind of a mer aquarium. And it was so striking to me. I was like, it's so interesting that, like, there are so few men in this business, but they are immediately owning the means of production.

[Katherine Weber]

Of course. Of course.

[Caroline]

But, like, the fact that, like, and then you see all these poor women, like, loading their car with tails, and it's like, why aren't. Why aren't you owning an aquarium?

[Katherine Weber]

It just. When you said that, I just suddenly remembered the book by. What is the book about? The. I think it's called Intersex. The intersex book where the character is intersex and ends up being a mer in, like, a circus. It's by. Oh, God, you know, not David Foster Wallace, but like, of his ilk. You know, the. Like.

[Caroline]

Oh, is it Jeffrey Eugenides?

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Is it Middlesex?

[Katherine Weber]

Middlesex.

[Caroline]

I have not read that one, but I love him.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, Middlesex. And I think. I don't know how Middlesex was received in both the trans and the intersex community. So I'm not speaking to that. But the character does become a performing mermaid because. And it's kind of. It's literally just like, you know, we talked about before kind of things that we wanted to touch on. And this just popped in my head, literally, when you're talking about the. This person opening the kind of myrrh aquarium, that's what that she is in.

[Caroline]

We mentioned the Pisces up top.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

That is my favorite piece of mermaid ephemera. Although it may be rivaled by Merpeople. The documentary.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes. And we have to come back to Aquamarine as well. So the Pisces came out. When did it come? Like, eight years ago.

[Caroline]

Ooh. I was still at the pool. So that's how I measure time. The pool. The website is doing For.

[Katherine Weber]

But suitable. Fitting.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

So it was maybe 2018 and it was a like. About a woman who is going through a divorce or bad.

[Caroline]

It's by Melissa Broder, I believe it was shortlisted for the Women's Prize the year came out.

[Katherine Weber]

It's like my favorite. It's like batshit literary, which is my favorite.

[Caroline]

Batshit literary is precisely. How do you describe it? Yes. So it's basically this woman who is following a breakup that has sent her on a kind of a. Sort of a breakdown in the spiral that has sort of like she's. She's behaved violently towards her ex and her ex's new girlfriend. She takes the summer to live at her far. Her older sister's rich beach house and she.

[Katherine Weber]

In Venice. In California.

[Caroline]

In Venice and California. And during that time she is forced to go to sort of like therapy for sex and love addiction. And also she has a sexual relationship with a merman who she finds and.

[Katherine Weber]

She has to cart him up in a wheelbarrow.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Katherine Weber]

Or a wagon, I think. It stayed with me so much. And she's like, carting him up the beach and. Yeah. The way that they figure out the genitalia is. It's. His dick is above the tail.

[Caroline]

Yes. It's sort of. The tail starts high in the thigh.

[Katherine Weber]

High in the thigh. High in the thigh. And I think it's okay to do a spoiler for the Pisces that came out a while ago for me at the end of the book. He's like, all right, now come down to my underwater kingdom. And she's like, oh, you mean you want to drown me? And he's like, yeah. And I thought that was so well done. Do all mermaids just want to drown people? Like when Tom Hanks dives in with Daryl Hannah at the end of the movie, is she just gonna drown him? I don't know. Or is she gonna turn. Does he turn into a merman? Does he grow a tail?

[Caroline]

So brilliantly done. And, like, I'm so sorry if that spoiler was ruined for everybody. Ruined for anybody. But, like, I think the way you can. The best way to talk about the Pisces is in completion, right? Because it's this. It's so well done because, like, he has this sort of like, he's so beautiful. And when she first sees him, he's just like this night swimmer kind of thing.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, my God, it's so funny. She goes and talks to him and.

[Caroline]

Sits on the edge of the dock and he's just like, hello. Yeah, it's me. And then she sort of slowly realizes who and what he is. And they have this incredible sex and everything and.

[Katherine Weber]

And he's just obsessed. So he has no, he has nothing else but just to have sex with her and like love her. He does speak English. He's. He's not born sexy yesterday. He is born sexy with a tail, but not yesterday.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And I think like, he. What I find one of my favorite, most hilarious things about that novel is that he looks about like 25 and she's like 38 or something. And he's like, yeah, I'm like a lot older than I seem. And she thinks he's like mythically older. And she's like a professor in Sappho, the poet. And she's like, do you know Sappho? And he's like, yeah, I know of her. And she's like, wow, you're an ancient beast. And then it turns out he's like 41.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. So good. So good. Oh, man. Also, as an adjacent thing when she thought he was an ancient beast. I'm also intrigued in the wider fantasy trope of the ancient. You know, like the fae men and everything who are hundreds of years old or the vampires. I'm intrigued by that.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Katherine Weber]

Do we think mermaids live as vampires? What do we think?

[Caroline]

Oh, how do they age? Yeah, well, the, the Pisces is kind of like. Well, the salt and the brine is keeping me looking younger. But I'm still essentially on a mortal time span. Yeah. But I don't, I don't. I don't think of them as.

[Katherine Weber]

I think time is probably.

[Caroline]

They, they age. They, they. I'm. Here's my take. If I were to write a mermaid novel, which I have no plans do because I'm not coming for your bag. I will say the average. The average Mermaid lives to 150.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, I think that makes sense. Yeah. I'd say 150 to maybe 200. A stretch. Like I feel like we're probably destroying them in the ocean because we are the ocean.

[Caroline]

That's actually a controversial thing about the mermaids is that they are. Their plastic use for those tails is through the roof.

[Katherine Weber]

It's really high, of course.

[Caroline]

And obviously glitter and all the pearls and all that.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

But that's neither here nor there. The thing I want to get back to with the Pisces is that because I'm so. Because we've talked about all the metaphors that apply to children and men and women when it comes to mermaids, but with what, what we have to talk about mermen. What is the merman equal opportunity here? Exactly. But what is the kind of functioning metaphor here? And what do we use a merman mythologically for? And what it is being used for in the Pisces is that, like, she thinks that he might. Like she's not really. They've made this agreement that he's going to take her into the ocean with him and she can leave this terrible life she has behind. And she. She sort of implies that means maybe, what, she'll become a mermaid too, or something? Or something like that. And he's like, no, I'm gonna take you down to the bottom of the ocean with my many watery brides before you, and you will die.

[Katherine Weber]

And then, yeah, congrats. But what a great time.

[Caroline]

We have had a great time. But this is a character who is kind of actively depressed, actively suicidal, actively destroying her life.

[Katherine Weber]

And it makes her realize she doesn't want that.

[Caroline]

And she doesn't want that. But also, it's a character who's actively dealing with sex and love addiction. And I think it's so interesting to have a character who's dealing with that up against a literal siren. Like, he's not a mermaid. He's a siren.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Which is a red flag.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes. A male siren. I'm intrigued as a siren. I also like where mermaids are talking about with their. Like, their singing. I love the mermaid singing trope, which we've not even really gotten into. But, yeah, no, the Pisces is excellent. Really recommend it. Again, apologies for spoiling the end, but you should still read it because you will get a lot, a lot out of it. It's so well done and so batshit in the best way possible.

[Caroline]

And it just really made me think about, like, I don't know, just that. That topic in general as it applies to women of, like, that sort of parent. It's really heightened in this book, but I think it lives within ordinary women. The sort of paranoid thing of, like, if I don't get someone to love me, I don't exist kind of thing. It sort of. It intensifies that.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

In such an interesting way.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes. No, absolutely.

[Caroline]

I just love that fucking.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. It's so good. And I think for me, kind of like the Pisces sits next to Shape of Water because it's a. He's more fish man than mermaid.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes, he is. But it.

[Caroline]

Talk me through that one. Cause I didn't see it.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, my gosh. Oh, so, okay. Interestingly so, it. Oh, gosh, her name has just fallen out of my head. And I know you said people always come for you when you don't remember the names of any of the actors or anything. But Shapewater main character, she's like, a beloved actress, but she is mute. And she works in, like, a factory. It's kind of unclear what it is. And then this, like, sea, sexy sea creature kind of comes in, and he is much more fish man than mermaid. There's no, you know, he's got arms and legs and a penis. And they. And she, like, tells her friend that they hook up. And she didn't. Like, the friend is like, how does it work? Like, wants to know the logistics. And she, like, kind of, like, shows her hands how it works, and she has to save him, get him out of the. Their kind of, like, factory where he might be researched on as well. So, again, it's kind of that similar vibe. But I think that merman that. The fact that the merman that I've come across in my personal life, with the exception of King Triton, I think it's interesting that they're like, we're gonna be very clear about where their penis is. Like, interesting that they've really got to identify that.

[Caroline]

That's fascinating. Yeah. I remember that, like, when I was watching documentaries on Barbie and the creation of. And I love Barbie.

[Katherine Weber]

This probably doesn't surprise you. I love.

[Caroline]

We both love Barbie.

[Katherine Weber]

Love a Barbie mermaid.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, don't tell me about it. But there was always this kind of real controversy around, like, and a delay on making a Ken at first, because what would we do about his penis? And there was, like, a bunch of, like. A bunch of, like, prop penises that were sent to sort of, like, the Mattel to approve.

[Katherine Weber]

So funny.

[Caroline]

And in the end, they went for the kind of. The jockey bulge, you know?

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, the jockey bulge. Right. You know, and, you know, it's a. We have a. Like I said, I have young kids, and we've got a lot of different, like, animal toys and things. That's interesting. Even the animal toys, some are more anatomically correct than others, and it prompts questions. So I think it's, you know, a good thing. But. Yeah. Although I would say if we got a merman toy and it had a penis on it, I would be alarmed.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I'm interested. Are your kids of that phase where they're always, like, looking up the dresses of dolls and things?

[Katherine Weber]

Not so much. I think the dolls, they're there. They like to change the doll. They're changing their clothes constantly. They Were always getting a variety of clothing and we like, you know, I subscribe to the. We use, we use all the real words for everything, you know, so they, they're not too fussed about it. Occasionally again, we'll get like some sort of animal toy. They're like, what's this? I'm like, wow, that is a well endowed toy horse. Is that necessary? Okay, here we go.

[Caroline]

Oh, is it one of those like kind of model farm, like German engineered? Like you can see the sort of the. Yeah. Folds of everything.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. The real, the real details of it. I'm. I don't even know thing of merman toys. I don't see any merman toys. Like, we have lots of mermaids.

[Caroline]

And actually that puts me in mind of that joke in Zoolander where he's doing an ad for a moisturizer and he plays merman. Merman, man, it's so good. But like, I mean, obviously Zoolander is a classic of our generation and so funny and still funny. But it's really interesting that like what is seen as the low point for that character is when he's with his brothers and dad.

[Katherine Weber]

His coal miner brothers.

[Caroline]

Yes, coal miner brothers and dad. And they've had one of their day down the mines together and then they see the ad on TV and like he does this sweet little like Ben Stiller Zoolander smile. He's like, yay, that's me. And they're all just disgusted. And that's like the point where the dad like breaks contact with him forever is.

[Katherine Weber]

It's too much because mermaids. Yeah. AR is so kind of feminine. Although again, like we were saying, they're so strong. And merman. I think King Triton is very strong. Ariel's dad.

[Caroline]

Oh, I know, yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

Very, very, very strong. Very powerful. Yeah. No, I, Yeah, I, I just said mermaids and gender are so.

[Caroline]

You know what I was obsessed with, unsurprisingly, as a child because I had like every big book of Irish Celtic myths that were made for children. Just my entire house filled with them. And of course selkies came up a lot. Yes. And something I could never square the circle on with selkies is that like, obviously those, you know, you've seen those like big book of myth books that we give to kids.

[Katherine Weber]

I love them.

[Caroline]

I love them as well. And I love them now, flicking through them as an adult, knowing the bits they're talking about. But the way they've sort of babied them down. Yeah. Sanitized them and all that. Like I've seen A picture book of Othello.

[Katherine Weber]

You know, that's crazy.

[Caroline]

But all the selkie stories would always be some version of. There was a fisherman, and he caught a sort of seal, found his way into the boat, and the seal was sick, and then he took it ashore. And then the seal turned out to be a woman, and she shed her seal skin. And the seal skin is always like, a thing. Like, it's like a coat, like a real thing. You can always imagine it being zipped up or something.

[Katherine Weber]

I was just quite freaked out by this. The idea of them taking off their skin.

[Caroline]

It's crazy. It's for sure crazy. And then what always seems to happen is that, like. But the fisherman was so in love with her that he could not let her return to the sea. So it's always the story about, like, how the fisherman, like, hides the coat or, like, locks it away so she can't find it.

[Katherine Weber]

And then she finds it eventually.

[Caroline]

She finds it eventually, but often years later, after they've had several children.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. And then she's like, bye, off into the sea. I want to. I wonder if you could gender flip it if you had, like, you know, I love a female sailor, female pirate. Finding male mermaids, like. Or finding a male. Do male selkies exist? Are they only women?

[Caroline]

No, I don't think so.

[Katherine Weber]

Can you ever have a male selkie?

[Caroline]

I've never seen one.

[Katherine Weber]

I've never. I also love selkies, but I was more of a. But there is something inherently, to me, more dangerous about selkies. And selkie stories are always sad because they're always caught. Like, the idea, for me, about a mermaid. And, you know, I think people are really playing fast and loose with the rules of, you know, when they can come on land. You know, sometimes it's like they get splashed with water. They're fine. But, like, with the selkie, it was the trapping, the entrapment, which seemed so alarming. And you're like, how can you love someone if you are trapping them and keeping them back from the sea that they love most of all?

[Caroline]

It's really crazy. It's like, I'm surprised there isn't more that's been done with it culturally, because it's such a kind of a clear. Yeah, a clear sort of metaphor for domestic labor.

[Katherine Weber]

And also the idea that if you gave her. Because I always liked the idea. I was like, well, what if, you know, could she put on her silky coat and go back in the sea and then come back? But it's the idea of, like, no, I don't trust you. If I let her back, she will go away from me forever.

[Caroline]

Yes. It's like the opposite of, you love something, let it free.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. Like, why can't they just hang the silky coat, you know, with other coats? Like, are you going off to go back to the selkie sisters for a little bit? Yeah, go. You go.

[Caroline]

Bring me a shell.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, exactly. I don't know. But I also love selkies, as, like I said, I was less. I was scared. I never wanted to be a selkie. That did not seem aspirational at all because basically getting skinned frequently alarming. Whereas mermaids, to me and selkies also just seemed more like. Like bedraggled. They don't. They didn't have pearls.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Like, everything in Ireland just fundamentally less.

[Katherine Weber]

Glamorous coming out of the sea. But I do.

[Caroline]

I do.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. I think selkies and mermaids are sisters. And then so are like. I'm going to mispronounce this. Naiads.

[Caroline]

Yeah, that's what I would say. Naiads.

[Katherine Weber]

We can blame our accents.

[Caroline]

Sure.

[Katherine Weber]

Who are like sea nymphs, which.

[Caroline]

So sea. Like, so river nymphs. I think it's like, isn't like, I'm not a classic classics gal, although I would like to have a classic gal on. So if there's any funny classic gals who are out there, please hit me up. But I believe Achilles's mother was a naiad. Right. And the whole thing with his strength was that he was dipped into magical water.

[Katherine Weber]

Loves magical water.

[Caroline]

But she held him by the heel, and so his heel was the only. So she. So she upside down.

[Katherine Weber]

I get why. I don't know why she wouldn't have full immersion there.

[Caroline]

I don't know.

[Katherine Weber]

There's a baptism, like, something in there.

[Caroline]

So mermaids. Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

It all comes back to mermaids for butterflies. I want to talk a little bit too about aquamarine, which I know you prefer to splash. And for anyone who doesn't know what.

[Caroline]

Aquamarine is, aquamarine is so funny.

[Katherine Weber]

It's like the better version of splash. Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because it's like, again, it doesn't cross that uncanny valley thing of, like, the born sexy. Because aquamarine it is. Two girls. One of them is Jojo.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, that's Emma Roberts.

[Caroline]

But Jojo of Leave. Get out. Joanne. Jojo Laves, who is like. I mean, I'm sad she didn't act more because she's really charming. They're both so charming in it. And they're both. They're girls at my favorite, favorite age to see girls in cinema. And you don't see a lot of it. It's that kind of preteen, sort of parent trappy age of just like two girls who are like obsessed with each other. And it's their last summer together because. Because JoJo's mom is gonna go live in Australia to be a. Hello Australia. Hello, Australia. To be a fish woman or something. And it's like, oh, no, you're moving away. And then it's like. It is the most admirable and ambitious plotting I have ever seen in a film. So the plot of Aquamarine, which is communicated to us within the first 20 minutes is this the two girls who live on a beach town. They're gonna be split up at the end of the summer. That's sad.

[Katherine Weber]

They have a crush on a lifeguard.

[Caroline]

They have a crush on a lifeguard? Sure. Great. They're kind of. They're awkward and dweeby and they're sort of sweet. Sweet. They. A hurricane washes up a mermaid into one of the pools, joining their houses. Fine. They save their mermaid. Okay. The mermaid is about to be set into an arranged marriage that she doesn't want to be in because. But her father won't listen to her.

[Katherine Weber]

Because he doesn't believe in love. Mermaids can't fall in love.

[Caroline]

Mermaids can't fall in love. Mermaids don't believe in love. So she has three days for some reason to fall in love.

[Katherine Weber]

Probably three days from Little Mermaid. Because she has three days to prove to him. To make him three days.

[Caroline]

Very, very Jesus adjacent, very fairy tale.

[Katherine Weber]

Everything is always so she has three days. Which again probably is because Ariel only had three days to make Prince Eric fall in love with her.

[Caroline]

Yes. To fall in love. Prove it to her father. And the girls are going to help her with this. Because if you help a mermaid, she will grant you one wish. And the wish will be that they stay together. It is the most convoluted mermaid.

[Katherine Weber]

Love it. But I also loved it. I love too that the mermaid again like that people can. You can just give your. You can imbue your mermaids with whatever magic you want. You're like, yeah, they can grant wishes. Cool. Checks out.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And this also. They're really playing it fast at least because this mermaid, who I don't know the actress, but she's really funny. The. And very pretty. And the mermaids can have legs on land, but as soon during the day.

[Katherine Weber]

Yep.

[Caroline]

Reason unchecked. But if you get even a speck of water on their legs or on their skin, the tail will come back. So obviously hijinks ensue.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, many, many hijinks. What I love about aquamarine. So I actually kind of forgotten about aquamarine. And then I saw Alex Cooper from Call Her Daddy, posted a picture of her looking. She was in mermaid like look, you know, like the wet waves and like, makeup. And she said. She said, oh, I'm just missing my. Missing my starfish earrings to give me tell me compliments all night. And that's a line from Aquamarine. And I was like, I just love that aquamarine is just our pop culture mindset. And also, I also would like some starfish earrings to give me compliments all night. Yeah, I love a little detail like that.

[Caroline]

It seems like there was a moment just after probably we came of age, I think, like, you know, between 26, 2006 to 2010 maybe, when you and I were like teenagers and probably not and not really bothering where there was a lot of mermaid stuff going, because Zach Marine, there was H2O. And that was like, something that I remember the girls younger than me were obsessed with, but I was too old for. So it seems like there was a real mermaid resurgence around then. And I'm very curious as to what makes for a mermaid resurgence. Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh, me too.

[Caroline]

Because there's. There's a real theory, because I was listening to Marco Mode's podcast. I think it's called Screen Shot. I believe it's really good and weirdly recorded in the same room that we're sitting in right now.

[Katherine Weber]

Cool.

[Caroline]

So I'm sitting in Mar's chair, but. So one of the two biggest mermaid movies of kind of early cinema happened at the end of the forties, and it was. I can't remember the names of them, but I'll include them somewhere. But the sort of theory that him and his co host had was that sort of after the war, and there was this kind of sense of like, what do we do with the women now that they've had jobs and we're telling them to go back into the home? And so these mermaids that were being depicted were. It was very. Of the born sexy yesterday trope of like, I'm beautiful and I'm powerful, but I don't know what to do.

[Katherine Weber]

That's so interesting.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And then an earlier cinema, you get this very transgressive thing of like, after the Hays Code comes in, which is bans any kind of nudity or sexuality in cinema in the kind of 30s, you see a flush of mermaids again. Because you can show more body, of course.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. They're like. Mermaids aren't wearing shirts.

[Caroline]

What are you gonna do, put them in a T shirt? We're doing a mermaid here.

[Katherine Weber]

That is so funny. That's so interesting. Yeah, I think we're. You know, because there's not really been a. For lack of a better word, like a serious mermaid movie in a while that I can think of. You know, I feel like a lot of times they're used, you know, used for. Cause, like, there's, like you said, the hijinks can happen. But I. I wonder. I love, too. In a mermaid. I love the sisterhood of mermaids. I love. You see that Little Mermaid. I love it being like, it's the show. Yeah, they all. Yes, exactly. They're all there together protecting each other. And then you get the idiot one like Ariel, who's like, no, I want. I want to kiss a boy. Okay, That's.

[Caroline]

That's. That's my. One thing about the Little Mermaid is that I wish we got more of the sisters. I realize there's no time, but, you know, same.

[Katherine Weber]

I would love that. And I love. In the. In the little. Well, we talked about in the Little Mermaid remake with H. Thank you. Halle Bailey, who can. She's so beautiful, and she's such an incredible singer. I watched it on an airplane, and I loved it. All of her sisters are amazing, and they do this incredible thing where they make all the sisters different ethnicities. Kind of the idea is that King Triton has just been around all the seas, and these are his daughters.

[Caroline]

Well, this is another interesting thing that comes up in mermaid lore, and it came up in this movie again, that came up in the Kermode podcast called the Lure, a Polish film that came in 2015 and comes up in others is just that, like, mermaids are citizens of the world.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Because the ocean, you know, borders are imaginary. We made them up. And the ocean is kind of the only real thing. Like Sweden is a main up concept, but the ocean is real and tangible and everywhere. And so there is a kind of an unbiased and sort of transgressive attitude to ethnicity, I think.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, no, I think that makes sense. And then you do see mermaids in all kind of stories and cultures kind of around the world, which I enjoy as well. I love anything where you see stories popping up. I've been reading a lot about fairy tales, and I loved reading about how, like, you know, the kind of inklings that say something Like Cinderella, people were telling the same story on opposite sides of the world and there's no way that they would have been. And it's like how everyone has a tiny foot fetish is the answer to Cinderella.

[Caroline]

But, like, everyone has a tiny foot fetish.

[Katherine Weber]

Interesting. Of like, why are people kind of what is happening in humanity and making humans who aren't even communicating with each other, but, like, why do they, you know, why are they falling for these stories?

[Caroline]

It's crazy, right?

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah. It's so interesting human storytelling. I love it. It makes my heart so happy.

[Caroline]

And it reminds me as well, a book I read a few years ago by Natasha Bowen. It's a YA book called, called Skin of the Sea. And it's kind of based, kind of West African, I think.

[Katherine Weber]

Yes.

[Caroline]

But she uses the kind of the tradition of mermaids from that part of the world and she kind of engages it with slave narratives. Right. And like, the idea of, like, I think it's a slave boy who goes overboard that a mermaid saves. And the kind of the job of these specific mermaids are like, to take the souls of overborne slaves and bring them to heaven or something, you know?

[Katherine Weber]

Well, you do get a lot of mermaid in heaven because, like, in the original Little Mermaid, the whole thing is that she turns into sea foam and then turns into an angel. So I think mermaids and angels and water and stuff. I've just been reading the new RF Kuang. That's so good.

[Caroline]

I know.

[Katherine Weber]

I'm reading it also a lot about the leaf. What am I pronouncing that right? The leaf.

[Caroline]

I've been saying leaf.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah, but, you know, and that, you know, water taking you to death is just an interesting concept. Again, I wonder with mermaids. It's the idea, I think people also drawn to mermaids and sailors because not only like, hey, maybe that's a fish I can kiss, but also if I fall into the sea, if we. If we. If our, you know, ship. Ship crashes, I might be saved. It's like this kind of, you know, hope that, like, you might not drown because a mermaid might save you.

[Caroline]

That's so interesting.

[Katherine Weber]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because like in. In with, you know, kind of ancient Greek sailors, there were, you know, there were cults of different gods and goddesses and there were ocean cults to do with ocean gods, you know, and. And they would give offerings to these ocean goddesses. And it does make total sense that you would need a belief system to believe that something could save you in a very high likelihood you could go overboard. Yeah.

[Katherine Weber]

And then Said imagine instead of being drowned, you were going to be saved by a beautiful mermaid who might take you down to her beautiful mermaid kingdom and whatever happens there happens there. Like all good.

[Caroline]

I love these chicks, man.

[Katherine Weber]

I know. So good, so good for mermaids.

[Caroline]

Do you have any parting words or notes on mermaids that we need to discuss?

[Katherine Weber]

I mean I think we've, we've covered a lot of ground for our mermaids which was, I mean considering we wanted to start from mermaids as youth going all the way up to, you know, grown up human mermaid mermaids. Would you yourself, would you donate if someone, if, if any anyone watching wants to send you.

[Caroline]

If somebody like was like, I'm a professional mermaid and I've got, and I live in, I don't know, Bournemouth somewhere. I confuse me take a train to like I'll give you a training day in exchange for a few Instagram posts. I would be like 1000%.

[Katherine Weber]

Oh my gosh. Can I go with you? We're gonna go. We are, we're asking. We are setting in Australia. Australia is too far. But yes, we should go be. I looked into for promo, you know, I love a bit of like, you know, I love a, a ridiculous promotional moment for a book. Like I love when I did twin crowns, I was wearing a crown every second. So I looked into mermaid tails and they're just so expensive.

[Caroline]

How much so tricky. They're like what are the minerals?

[Katherine Weber]

They're like you're looking at like the ones. They also even have the ones that you can like actually wear in the water that for like more like little kid types. Even those start at like £200 and then go up. But like the really nice ones are really expensive. Like thousands of pounds.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. Because they're all kind of like they're, you know, again like drag costumery. They're sort of embroidered and embellished and rhinestoned. I also need to be functional athlete wear.

[Katherine Weber]

Exactly. I want to salute anyone who is professional mermaiding. You are doing the work. And also to all the girls who love mermaids. Yeah, we love you too.

[Caroline]

We love you mermaid girls. Captain of Fates is out soon for all mermaid girls.

[Katherine Weber]

All mermaid girls can find it. It's a strong mermaid. I love strong mermaid not born sexy yesterday.

[Caroline]

Okay, thank you, Katie.

[Katherine Weber]

Thank you. Had so much support for this podcast and the following message is brought to you by E Trade for Morgan Stanley. With E Trade, you can dive into the market with easy to use tools, $0 commissions and a wide range of investment. And now there's even more to love. Get access to industry leading research and insights from Morgan Stanley to help guide your decisions. Open an account and get up to $1,000 or more with a qualifying deposit. Get started [e-mail] terms and other fees apply. Investing Involves Risks Morgan Stanley Smith Barney LLC Member SIPIC E Trade is a business of Morgan Stanley.