Podcast Summary: Sentimental Garbage – "Magical Garbage: Mermaids with Katherine Webber"

Release Date: May 22, 2025
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Katherine Webber
Podcast: Sentimental Garbage
Platform: Hosted on Acast

1. Introduction and Announcements

Caroline O'Donoghue kicks off the episode with an enthusiastic announcement about the return of Sentimental Garbage to the Union Chapel on June 14 for a special launch event celebrating her new book, Skipshock. She shares her excitement about performing in one of her favorite venues again, promising a blend of the podcast’s typical fun and debauchery mixed with magical conversations. Notably, the event will feature tarot readings by Jen County and performances with Alex Haddow, promising an unforgettable evening for attendees ([00:33]).

2. Welcoming Katherine Webber

As the episode transitions into its main content, Caroline introduces her guest, Katherine Webber, lauding her as "the most enviable hare in the ocean" ([01:30]). Katherine expresses her excitement to delve into the topic, setting the stage for an engaging discussion on mermaids.

3. Mermaids in Childhood and Culture

The conversation begins with reflections on childhood fascination with mermaids. Caroline mentions various mermaid representations her listeners have requested, from Aquamarine to The Little Mermaid and the Australian TV show H2O ([02:15]). Katherine echoes this enthusiasm, highlighting the universal allure of mermaids across different cultures and generations ([03:03]).

Caroline draws parallels between mermaids and vampires, noting their timeless presence in pop culture and their embodiment of impossible love stories ([03:37]). Katherine agrees, adding that both creatures possess an animalistic quality, blurring the lines between human and animal ([03:46]). They discuss the inherent challenges in portraying mermaid relationships, questioning how such unions could function logistically ([04:04]).

4. Mermaids Through Different Lenses

The duo explores mermaids from three distinct perspectives:

• Child's Lens: Mermaids symbolize magic and beauty, representing a child’s first immersive experience with water and self-expression through elements like "mermaid waves" and colorful accessories ([05:15]).

• Adult Female Lens: Mermaids are idealized beings embodying unattainable beauty standards, blending childhood fantasies with adult desires for power and sexuality ([05:35]).

• Male Lens: Discussions touch upon the rarity of male mermaids, or mermen, and their often overlooked presence in mermaid narratives ([05:50]).

Notable Quote:

Katherine Webber ([05:16]): "There's the child lens, the adult female lens, and the male lens."

5. Katherine Webber’s "Captain of Fate"

Caroline shifts the focus to Katherine's latest work, Captain of Fate, a standalone spin-off from the Twin Crowns series featuring mermaids ([11:03]). Katherine provides insights into the creation process, emphasizing the complexities of developing realistic mermaid characters. She discusses the challenges of making mermaids appear otherworldly without falling into clichéd tropes, such as the "Born Sexy Yesterday" archetype seen in films like Splash and The Little Mermaid ([11:12]).

Katherine highlights how Captain of Fate attempts to subvert traditional mermaid narratives by portraying mermaids as powerful and intelligent beings rather than naive creatures dependent on humans ([11:42]). She shares a bit about the book’s plot, where a captain seeks a magical cure to save his sister and encounters a formidable mermaid who is part of a sisterhood of mermaids with her own agenda ([11:17]).

Notable Quote:

Katherine Webber ([11:42]): "I wanted the mermaids to feel kind of otherworldly. And I think a lot of times in mermaid pop culture, we talked how it's kind of like the Born Yesterday. Like, they show up on land, and they know nothing. Like Ariel."

6. Mermaids and Feminist Theory

Caroline delves into feminist interpretations of mermaids, discussing how traditional mermaid stories often center around male sailors and portray mermaids as saviors or objects of desire, perpetuating problematic power dynamics ([20:00]). Katherine concurs, linking mermaids to symbols within the trans community due to their hybrid nature and the metaphorical representation of gender fluidity ([31:39]).

Notable Quote:

Katherine Webber ([20:20]): "I think that mermaids as a sign for trans people makes a lot of sense. And also kind of, you know, I wonder if there's that something that, you know, mermaids, that kind of... they are seen as kind of hyper femme."

7. Historical and Modern Professional Mermaids

The discussion transitions to the history of professional mermaids. Katherine introduces Annette Kellerman, recognized as the first professional mermaid, who was not only a pioneering swimmer but also broke societal norms by wearing one-piece swimsuits without pantaloons in the early 20th century ([33:11]). Caroline adds that the tradition continued with establishments like Weeki Wachee in Florida, where mermaids perform intricate underwater acts requiring exceptional swimming skills and breath control ([36:00]).

They explore the modern resurgence of professional mermaiding, fueled by social media platforms like Instagram, which have made the profession more visible and glamorous despite its high costs and physical demands ([37:01]). Caroline expresses admiration for the dedication of professional mermaids who invest significant time and resources into their craft, highlighting the blend of athleticism and artistry required ([38:01]).

Notable Quote:

Katherine Webber ([37:26]): "When you are performing and you have that magical moment where there is, you know, a child maybe who thinks they're a mermaid or maybe not even child. They're like, I am a mermaid right now. Like, that is why they're doing it."

8. Comparative Analysis of Mermaid Representations

Caroline and Katherine compare various mermaid narratives, including Splash, Aquamarine, and The Shape of Water. They critique how different stories handle consent, autonomy, and the portrayal of mermaids. For instance, Caroline criticizes Splash for its problematic depiction of a mermaid's immediate dependency and lack of agency when she appears on land ([28:25]-[28:50]).

Conversely, Katherine appreciates Aquamarine for its more nuanced portrayal, where the merman is not a mindless savior but a character with his own motivations and complexities ([46:25]-[47:38]). They also touch upon The Shape of Water, discussing its take on mermaids as more powerful and less dependent on human intervention ([51:12]).

Notable Quote:

Caroline O'Donoghue ([28:25]): "She totally lacks the ability to consent properly, which is deeply problematic in the way that a lot of films in the 80s were, and mermaids specifically."

9. Mythological Context: Selkies and Naiads

Expanding beyond mermaids, the hosts discuss other water-based mythical creatures like selkies and naiads. Caroline reflects on selkie stories, which often involve themes of entrapment and loss, contrasting them with the more aspirational portrayal of mermaids ([55:10]).

Katherine expresses her preference for selkies despite their darker themes, pondering the potential for reimagining these myths with gender reversals or deeper societal metaphors ([56:25]). They explore how different cultures adapt these myths, emphasizing the universal human fascination with water creatures ([58:00]).

10. Final Thoughts and Closing Remarks

As the episode nears its end, Caroline and Katherine reflect on the enduring allure of mermaids in storytelling and their significance in representing complex human emotions and identities. They advocate for stronger, more empowered representations of mermaids that move beyond traditional tropes and offer richer, more diverse narratives ([68:03]).

Caroline concludes by expressing her admiration for those who dedicate themselves to professional mermaiding, celebrating their commitment and artistry.

Notable Quote:

Caroline O'Donoghue ([69:03]): "We love you mermaid girls."

Key Takeaways

• Mermaids as Multifaceted Symbols: Mermaids represent a blend of childhood wonder, adult aspirations, and complex gender identities, serving as metaphors for various human experiences.

• Evolving Representations: Modern narratives are shifting towards more empowered and autonomous mermaid characters, moving away from the "Born Sexy Yesterday" trope.

• Cultural Universality: Mermaids and similar mythical creatures are present in diverse cultures, highlighting a shared human fascination with water and the mysteries it holds.

• Professional Mermaiding: The resurgence of professional mermaiding underscores the blend of performance art, athleticism, and dedication required to embody these mythical beings.

• Intersection with Feminism and Trans Theory: Mermaids serve as powerful symbols within feminist and trans communities, representing fluidity, strength, and the challenge of traditional gender roles.

Listen to the full episode on Acast to dive deeper into the magical world of mermaids with Caroline and Katherine!