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Sentimental Garbage
Magical Garbage: The Hunger Games with Traci Thomas
01:17:30
Peeta is ugly and not good at war
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- [00:00]
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- [00:34]
Caroline
Hi, everyone. Magical Garbage is a podcast miniseries about fantasy storytelling and the enchanted things that helped make us who we are. I'm doing this miniseries in celebration of my new novel, Skip Shock, which is out on June 5th. And it's a story about love and time travel and parallel worlds and the moment in your life when you realize that you can't really be on the fence about things anymore, that you've got to love with your whole heart and fight with your whole heart and on one occasion, violate the rules of a nude bathhouse with your whole heart. I'm so proud of this book. I think it's so fun and exciting, and I would be so honored and delighted if you could pre order Skipshock from any brick and mortar bookseller of your choice. I'm sure you know this already, but pre orders are so important in the early stages of a book success. So if you're going to buy the book anyway, please think of a pre order as a special favor to me, the girl who's been talking to you from this recording booth for seven years. Okay, on with the show. Hello and welcome to Magical Garbage, the podcast where we talk about the dystopian realities that made us who we are. My name is Caroline, and I'm the deadly berries that either mean everlasting love or bloody revolution. And joining me is the District tribute who painted herself to look like a rock. It's Tracey Thomas. Yay.
- [01:53]
Tracey Thomas
Hi. Thanks for having me. I'm so excited.
- [01:57]
Caroline
Oh, my goodness. I haven't been nervous about a podcast in a while. I'm like you. I've been doing this for a bit. You know, there's not that much that phases me anymore, except for when something means so much to me and so much to other people and that when you know so much about a subject that you know, the depth of which, how much other people care about it, and you're like, please don't let me fuck this one up.
- [02:19]
Tracey Thomas
Okay, we're not gonna fuck it up. We're gonna do it. Great. Caroline, we've got this.
- [02:26]
Caroline
This is why I need more Americans on the podcast. I need more of this can do attitude. So today, Tracey Thomas, we're talking about the Hunger Games, mainly focusing on the books. Right. Which we've both been rereading. Yeah. So first of all, what made you pick these absolute stone cold bangers?
- [02:44]
Tracey Thomas
Okay. I love these books. I read them for the first time, I think, like 2010 into 2011. And I have a book podcast. And I never talked about them on my show. I never talk about how much I loved the books. And then this year I saw that there was book five coming out. What's it called? The Sunrise on the reaping. And I was like, let me go back and reread these books. And they're better. They're better than ever. And so I wanted to talk about how great they are because I feel like Suzanne Collins, for as rich as she is for writing these books and the movies, I don't think she gets enough artistic credit for being a true literary talent. Like, she needs a Pulitzer. She needs a Nobel Prize. She needs a Caldecott. She needs a National Book Award, like any award. She needs a five star review on Yelp. Like, she needs all of the good stuff.
- [03:48]
Caroline
Any app where it's possible to rate anything 5 stars. We must create accounts for Suzanne Collins. She gets a five star on Uber.
- [03:58]
Tracey Thomas
Like everywhere. Everywhere. I want nothing but success for one of the most successful authors of our time.
- [04:07]
Caroline
This is a feeling I am so familiar with. I have such overdog syndrome in so many parts of life where. And it's so much about what this podcast is about is that often when things are so famous and so beloved in many ways and so ubiquitous, it is really easy to underestimate their power. And I think the power of the Hunger Games has been underestimated a lot. I think there are a lot of people who are familiar with the plot and familiar with the movies, of course. And when you talk to people about them being familiar with the plot, they will say often something to the effect of, oh, yeah, it's kind of like the white American version of Battle Royale. That's like the clever movie film guy responds to it. And whenever anyone says that, and people have been saying it to me a lot this week because I've been talking about the books I've been rereading. I have a small stroke. I'm like, yeah, okay, there's references to Battle Royale, but there's also references, I think, to, like Shirley Jackson's the Lottery. I think there's Also references to, like, a lot of Greek mythology, like Roman mythology. That's like, very obviously quite obvious when you read it closely. I think, like, Lord of the Flies is obviously a touch point. But even though all of those things have shades of the Hunger Games in them, or the Hunger Games have shades of them, none of them are as complete a world as the world of the Hunger Games. Like, every single thing in these books is so unbelievably thought through. Whether it's like the kind of the delineation of the districts, the creation of the Games themselves, the sort of the. You know, in the third book, we're in Mockingjay, where we find out about District 13, and we're kind of. We want it to be this sort of this paradise, this kind of pro peace, you know, anti the capital kind of domain. But in some ways, it's the same as or worse than the Capitol. Like, everything is so embroidered to such an absurd level of detail that, like, I'm like, none of the things that you could reference with the Hunger Games touches the Hunger Games. I think.
- [06:17]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah. No, I totally agree. And I think on top of that, on top of the world being so well built and so detailed, I think what I really appreciate about the book is that I don't think Suzanne Collins takes a lot of time to explain it to us. There's a real trust in the reader where it's like, she'll give you one sentence about a character and you're like, I know exactly who that is. Like, my brain can do the rest of that for me. Or even, like, in the districts. Like, one of the things in book one, she's talking about district 11, which is where Rue is from. Sweet Ru. And I think she's like, rue. And now I'm blanking on his name.
- [06:57]
Caroline
Thresh.
- [06:58]
Tracey Thomas
Thresh. I was gonna say Chaff, but Chaff is the one in the book, too.
- [07:02]
Caroline
But he's the other District 11 tribute.
- [07:05]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, he's from. But he's from the second book. Anyways, Rue and Thresh, she's like, and they have dark skin and they're in agriculture. And you're like, oh, they're from the American South. Like, you don't have to do. She doesn't have to say, this used to be where plantations were and blah, blah, blah, blah. She's just like, they're black and they're from the south and figure it out. And I think that that kind of trust in her reader is what makes these books so good for young people and also for adults that they are YA in the sense that they're targeted to that audience, but they're not YA in the sense that they're limited to an aud. In the same way that some of our great, you know, classic books that are taught in school, at least in the States, like something like To Kill a Mockingbird. Nowadays that book is like ya, but at the time it was sort of just like for everybody. And I feel like the Hunger Games has that same kind of energy.
- [07:55]
Caroline
I completely agree. And it was interesting cause I was reading, I think I had. It's not a first edition, but it was like one of the earlier editions is the copies that I have in my house. Cause I was like you. I reckon we're around the same age. We're both millennials. Ish. And they. Yeah. Came out 2008 and I got on the train pretty quickly. Like I was pretty deep in I think probably as the books were coming out. But the, the pull quotes that are on those early editions are from like people like Stephen King and from. From like commercial thrillery kind of any like you know, highbrow airplane books. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. They're not sort of placed alongside ordinary YA the way we would now. Like if this book came now, it would be littered with a very specific type of genre author. Whereas I think the Hunger Games is almost like the love actually of, of YA fiction.
- [08:55]
Tracey Thomas
Do you know how much I hate love? Actually, I despise that movie. So you don't have to take that back. Like I'm offended. Like where is she going with this?
- [09:05]
Caroline
Oh my God. Don't worry, I'll take you there. I'll take you there. The reason I bring it up is because we've done an episode, Love actually. And Monica Heisey who defended Love actually said, I think Love actually is tarred with the brush of its imitators far too often in that it started this whole thing of like Valentine's Day and New Year's Eve and like let's make a huge ensemble comedy drama around a day or around a thing and everyone's in love. And she was like people kind of, you know, because people got so sick of what came after they bastardized what came first. And that is the way in which I think the Hunger Games is the love actually of ya. Because I think it created the category in a very specific way and it like, it sort of created a buzz around these multi book series in dystopian worlds. And for, you know, for there was a good six or seven years where in that industry, in ya, dystopia was all you could have, and then it died a death because the original readers moved on or simply the books that came next weren't as strong. Right. Like, and it was like, it was an itch that never got scratched quite in the same way again. But many publishers tried to, you know.
- [10:12]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, totally.
- [10:13]
Caroline
What she's not saying is Divergent.
- [10:15]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, I. I don't know the world of like, YA that well in general, but specifically, like, why? I just, like, this is really it for me. Like, this is. This is the one. I haven't gone back and read other things that came out around this time. I'm considering reading the Legendborn series because I think that's supposed to be great, that's new, that's that Tracy Dion series. But otherwise, no, this is it for.
- [10:45]
Caroline
I think you're. I think you're not alone in that. And I think that many people, this might be their only YA series they've read. In the same way that I think Sarah J. Maas, A Court of Thorns and Roses might be the only grown up fantasy people read. But that, you know, that is its power. But could you, Like, I write ya, so. But I'm not offended. Don't worry. But like, this is the, this is the series that like, got me into wanting to write for that. And whenever I'm giving writing advice to people, whether it's teenagers or people my own age or what aspiring authors at any level, I tell them to read the first Hunger Games book first. And I think it's a perfectly plotted piece. I think as well that, like, there are things in, like the first chapter that seed things in book two and three that you would never know were seeds. You just think of them as beautiful embroidery. Like, for example, the fact that it's the 74th annual Hunger Games, and then the following year we have 75. Right.
- [11:46]
Tracey Thomas
And we find out what that means.
- [11:48]
Caroline
Yes, yes, exactly. So the fact that in the first Hunger Games, she's in the Hunger Games, and then in the second Hunger Games, they just sort of boot her back into the arena. But it's the All Stars edition, under many other people's pen would be like a very tacky plot device. But the fact that you're like, seeding it so early on, it feels completely natural.
- [12:08]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [12:08]
Caroline
But the thing that makes me really push it into the hands of people who are aspiring novelists, regardless of what genre that they want to aspire to write in, is the sentence, I volunteer as tribute. I really think it's an incredible, like, lesson to point to because there are so many people who. They want to. Either they want to write fantasy or they want. They want to write, like, a novel in which their main character is put in a situation. And the situation they've dreamed up for their character is amazing and it's insane. And everyone's turned into a cat. And, like, are you. Every day it's, like, crazy. And you're never going to believe it. And it's a great concept, and you wouldn't believe it. But what will separate the books that get published from the ones that don't. Of all those is main characters who have true agency and who are making decisions. And the reason why I volunteer is tribute, which is Katniss Everdeen. She's trying to save her sister Prim, from the Games. She's been picked at random. She has to go to the Capitol to fight for her life. And she will almost certainly, because her sister's only 12, will almost certainly die. Katniss puts herself forward and says, I volunteer as tribute. It's one of the most famous scenes from the movies and from the franchises. And why it's so important is that we are given a world in which people have so few choices, and we are given, like, the narrowest and most deadly of circumstances. But Suzanne Collins still managed to empower her main character with choices, you know?
- [13:41]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah. I mean, so you're getting at something that I think she does throughout the books so well. And a friend of mine, I was actually, like, you talking to friends about it this week and what he said, and I had never thought to articulate it this way, but he was like. One of the things that's so special about these books is the way in which Suzanne Collins takes care of all of the characters in the sense of, like, even though, you know, most people you meet are gonna die, she gives them. She gives them a moment. She gives them a sentence where, you know, maybe it's Katniss. Maybe it's as dramatic as Katniss decorating Rue with the flowers. But sometimes it's just, like, acknowledging that person or giving them a moment to be a fully realized character. Even if we only know them for 10 sentences, you're gonna get an 11 sentence that just acknowledges who they were. I mean, I'm thinking also at the end of the book of Book one, where they're at the Cornucopia and the mutts are, like, eating the tribute from number one, Cato. Cato. And he's like, whimpering you hear him whimpering. He's whimpering. And then they finally put him out of his misery. And he asks for it. Right. And just that there's this care of this humanity. Because Cato, for. For most of the book when we're with him, he is sort of the villain of Katniss Hunger Games. But she still gives him that humanity to remind us that these are all just like children. Even the ones that are the biggest threat to our heroine are still someone else's child. They're still people. And I think that in addition to the agency, is what makes these books really stick on your heart. Cause there's a lot of like perfectly paced books or perfectly plotted books, but they don't have that resonance. Those are the kind of books that you read and you're like, I had a great time. I read it at the beach. It was awesome. It was so fast. I read it in one sitting. I loved it. And you're like, I couldn't tell you a thing about it. Your next summer vacation, you don't know a thing. But these characters, they stick to you because she treats them with care and she makes sure that they feel fully realized.
- [15:53]
Caroline
You're so correct. That's something I never. The characterization is something I think. Cause I've been so focused on how deft the plot is.
- [16:00]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [16:00]
Caroline
That I think I missed that particular thing. And you're so correct. Like, and that just made me think of like, there's a detail with Thresh, who is like Rue's counterpart in the first book, where it's a line about how he has put on weight during the Games because he has managed to cross some booby trapped meadow and find food elsewhere. And it's like, even. No, we don't know that character. And there's like one line of dialogue from him. She's imbibing her secondary characters with ingenuity and grit. Like, it's not like. Even though I think people think of like Katniss Everdeen as being this kind of like, you know, I don't know. I think the interpretation she gets from culture is like, she's the sassy, strong girl with the bow and arrow and she can do anything in almost like the Mary sue or something. But actually all of these kids have a degree of ingenuity and that's what gets them so far into the Games, you know, even if we don't see them. And you're right. That is so. It's a real gift. It's a really hard thing to do.
- [17:05]
Tracey Thomas
It's really hard. And I think what's interesting about Katniss is that, yes, that version of Katniss that you described is how people think of her in pop culture. I think because of Jennifer Lawrence and how we think of Jennifer Lawrence. But I was surprised in my reread of how slow Katniss is on the uptake. There's so many times where everyone around her knows what's going on and she is missing the point. She has no vision. Like, there's so many parts where Peeta and Haymitch are up to something, and it's just like Katniss can't see it. Where Finnick is up to something, Katniss can't see it. Gale knows what's going on. Katniss can't even. There's scenes where Prim is, like, ahead of Katniss. And I think it's really interesting. But because of, you know, this happens sometimes when things are adapted to the screen. The casting makes, changes it. On my podcast, we just did a book club episode on Lolita, and we talked about how what's in the Book of Lolita is nothing like the pop culture conversation around a Lolita. And I think some of that is true for Katniss. We think of Katniss culturally as the smartest, toughest, best at everything kind of person. And in the books, she's much more fallible than that. Like, she. I mean, she misses so many times with her arrows, right? Like in the Games, there's so many times where her first or second arrow that could have taken someone out is Ms. Mrs. Is deflected. Like, she is so much more human than. I think what happened when we saw this badass young woman, Jennifer Lawrence, take her on. And I think that's always really interesting. Interesting.
- [18:44]
Caroline
It's so interesting when a character who exists on the page, as you say, is oxidized by a real person, celebrity. And then those two kind of things mix in both, you know, the public eye and the public consciousness or whatever. Like, you know, we talked about not too long ago for our Gone Girl episode, we talked about the way Ben Affleck playing Nick and everything we know about Ben Affleck kind of. And that's the fact that he's sort of like, very vulnerable to love and kind of a jackass, but sort of like, kind of getting rings run around him all the time by the various women he's in love with or taking up with. How that really kind of helped the character of Nick. And similarly, you know, reading, I'm sort of 100 pages from the end of my reread of Mockingjay. Something I found really fascinating was so much of these books and particularly Mockingjay critique Katniss's essential likability. And, you know, from the get go, it's very clear that, like, Katniss is a strong eldest daughter provider and she. She loves who she loves, but she's. She's very awkward with people she doesn't know. And she is deeply awkward in front of the camera. And she is not media trained. And she can't seem to get media trained in the way like, PETA can be. And then, you know, we have. When she has to be this kind of propaganda tool in the later books, it's like she can't kind of do a line reading properly. And, like, there's so much focus on. And it's, It's. It's interesting because this book. These books are never really talked about as being feminist critiques, but they kind of quietly are, you know, the way that women need to be presented in front of us all the time and how Katniss needs to be presented to the people. And it made me really think about how Jennifer Lawrence's quote, unquote, likability has been on such a journey over the last decade, about how she was everyone's adorable best friend when she was young, but then as she got older, people decided they didn't like it anymore. You know, I just find that fascinating.
- [20:49]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, I think. I mean, I think Jennifer Lawrence ends up being a really interesting casting choice as her career goes on, because I think for many of us, myself included, I'm always gonna think of her as Katniss, even though I've seen her in so many other things. Like, and I will always think of Katniss as her in some ways. So, like, even with this reread, I kept having to readjust and re acclimate to. Is that Jennifer Lawrence or is that actually in the book? You know?
- [21:15]
Caroline
You know, it just occurred to me, I think a lot of people know the plot of the Hunger Games, the book. But could you just please describe to me what the Hunger Games, as per. In this world are.
- [21:28]
Tracey Thomas
Okay, so I hope I'm doing this right. Panem is the country which is formerly the United States, North America area. I think it's just the United States, but it could be more. And in the past 74 years, before book one starts, there is a revolution. And the Capitol, which is the sort of central area of the country, wins this war and they take over all of the Districts, the outside places that rose up against the Capitol are subjugated. They are divided into 13 districts. And the 13th district is, we're told was destroyed and is lost forever. The other 12 each have their own sort of usefulness to the capitol. So District 12, where Katniss is from is coal mining. District 11, as I mentioned, is agriculture. I believe District 4 is like seafood. It's like the ocean stuff. Yeah, yeah. District three is like weapons and like technology. So each one has its own thing. District two is the police. Basically they supply the police. And the closer the districts are to the Capitol, the wealthier they are, the stronger they are. District 12 is the least close. I don't know if that's actually true geographically so much. I believe the Capitol is located in Denver area, I think in the Rockies, I think.
- [23:05]
Caroline
Yes, I think that's right.
- [23:07]
Tracey Thomas
Anyway.
- [23:07]
Caroline
Whereas I think District 12 is supposed to be Appalachian in Appalachia.
- [23:11]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, yeah. And like I said before, I think District 11 is sort of like American south. Is what? Is what? The census. It's really big. Yes, we know it's really big. Like multiple times bigger than. So you know, we know some information. Anyways, so the districts as part of reminding them their place in this society, in this country. Every year I believe right around the 4th of July, definitely in the summertime, they.
- [23:40]
Caroline
Oh, I missed that. I missed the fourth of July.
- [23:43]
Tracey Thomas
I think it's. That's my. I don't know. That's my sense. I don't know if that's true. But it's definitely after. I pretty sure it's July. I think it's the beginning of July. Anyways, someone will fact check me. Sorry if I got it wrong. They do a reaping, which is every child from the age of 12 to 18 in the district. Their name is put in a fishbowl. Some people's names are put in more depending on if they take more resources throughout the year. And one boy and one girl are chosen as tribute to the Hunger games. And all 24 of those children go to the Capitol. They get put inside some man made dome. And they fight till the death. One child wins. They become a victor. They are celebrated. All the other children are killed. And that is the reminder to these districts. Don't ever come for us again. Because we are not your friend. How did I do?
- [24:42]
Caroline
Fantastically. Well done. The amount of district and industries you remember just there, I could have never.
- [24:48]
Tracey Thomas
Thank you. Thank you very much. So that's like the premise of the games themselves.
- [24:53]
Caroline
What really struck me on this reread was. I always sort of felt when I read this as a younger person that the idea of, like, okay, so the. You know, one of the many tools that they use to subjugate their people is this TV show that is about mindless slaughter. And I don't know. It's not that I ever criticized it before. I just sort of took it for granted as the plot structure that it was. But it really hit me on this time around, I was like, oh, like, that is a perfect way to subjugate your people. And to, like, they've created something quite magnificent there in terms of if the districts are not allowed to really have any contact with one another, for most people in this population, the first time they will. The only time they'll leave their district is if they are put in. If they are put in as a Tribute. The only way that these districts find out about each other is when they see each other on the Hunger Games. That is the most they learn. They have basic information about what these districts are famous for, and they know nothing else. And so what happens then is there will never be a sense of unity among these districts because the only thing they know each other for is who murdered who during what Games. And this comes up for Katniss when in the second book, her and Peeta, they go on this victory tour. And in some places, she feels welcome. In some places, she feels the very real hate, like, coming off these people. And, like, it really struck me, you know, while a kind of a genius way that is to keep people rallied against each other while also providing this kind of perfect, ghoulish form of entertainment for the capital and all that, and there's, like, a whole industry of gambling and betting behind it. But then, like, and this might be a bit, like, I don't know, a bit spliffy or whatever, but, like, it kind of put me in mind of, like, football hooliganism in the 80s, right? Of, like, the. We already have forms of this. We already have, like, sports wherein, like, people from different sides of a country will know nothing about one another other than who beat who during what game and whether or not it was unfair. You know, and it was like, that only really hit me on this. On this read around, like, yeah, what a genius idea. Like, what a ghoulish and genius idea.
- [27:25]
Tracey Thomas
I think what's really, you know, maybe I shouldn't say it's not talked about, but something that is not talked about enough for my taste is how some of the best sort of dystopian Fiction. I'm thinking of Octavia Butler. I'm thinking of, you know, Handmaid's Tale is just taking what is happening at the time or recent past and expanding it out, making it bigger, making it. Taking it to a further conclusion. And I think that's what Suzanne Collins has done here, especially. Especially when it comes to the TV show of it all. Because if you think about the timeline she's writing this book in, it comes out in 2008, the first one. So she's writing it, let's say 2006, 2007. This is the heyday of the start of reality TV. This is Survivor. This is the Bachelor. And she's seeing this, right? She's seeing people being put into our homes and how people are responding to them and becoming, like, tribal around. Did you like Richard? Yes or no? And she expands it out, right? Like this reality TV part of it for me, this time around, I was like, holy shit, she really nailed this. And the first time, I remember being like, this is weird, or like, this is crazy. But this time I'm like, oh, I could see this happening today. And I think, like, she saw what was going on with the way that characters can be broadcast in, like, the reality sense, and she put that into the book and just took it further. She took the technology. She made the technology make it work. Where I didn't question for a single second in this read, how could the cameras be inside the cave with Peeta and Katniss? Like, of course they are. Of course they are. Of course there would be cameras every single place. And of course they would know exactly who to cut to and when to cut to them, and they would know how to manipulate a character. And, like, when Katniss is saying, I know they're not showing this on TV right now, or I bet they're showing this. All of that just totally played into how I think we now see reality tv. We're now. You know, I used to watch the Bachelor a lot, and I stopped watching more recently. But one of the reasons that I stopped watching is because I became too obsessed with what were the producers thinking? Right? Like what?
- [29:44]
Caroline
I'm so glad you brought this up. I think any person who is, like, you know, you say you watch the Bachelor. My kind of, like, reality TV thing that I've been following for over 10 years now is RuPaul's Drag Race. And, like, I'm sure this is the same with Survivor and the same with the Bachelor. Fans have become obsessed with sort of like, guessing and second guessing what the Producers are doing what kind of edit a contestant is receiving. Like, you hear this a lot in fandoms around reality TV of, like, what the edit is showing us in a way nobody was talking about in 2006, but Suzanne Collins was thinking about very deeply.
- [30:17]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah. And I think that is. I mean, there's a lot of other things in this book that show her sort of forward vision. But I think when you think about the time and what we were actually seeing on reality tv, I mean, definitely, like, Real World had been around for a while, but I don't even think by this point with the Real World, we were thinking about the producers in the same way we knew there were producers, because every once in a while on the Real World, you would. Someone would ask a question or say something, and the producer would be like, okay, well, let's go talk about that over here, or whatever. But I feel like now the producers, I mean, they come up all the time on reality tv, like, who's pulling the strings? I mean, I watch Love is Blind also, and this question comes up of, like, why aren't they showing us these conversations when they're happening? Why are they sitting back down on the couch to, like, rehash it? Right? And, like, that's a conversation about production and access. And I think she clearly was understanding that piece of it. And that's what makes, I think, the game so interesting, because her characters are playing. I mean, specifically, Katniss is playing with the producers, and she's toying with them in a way that would have been unimaginable in 2007 or 8.
- [31:38]
Caroline
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. And what I find so fascinating as well is that, I mean, this is a line from the movies that I'm not even sure if it appears in the books, but President Snow, who is the kind of architect of this whole terrible system, says something to the effect of, why do you think we have a Victor? Like, if we wanted to scare the districts, we would just line them up and shoot them by firing squad. But we have a Victor because a shred of hope can be more powerful and more sort of effective for control than a bucket load of fear. And that's what this represents. And when I, you know, when I kind of, especially in the second book, when you get to know previous Victors and you get to know what their lives look like, you get this real critique of fame and reality TV fame specifically, and how fame is, in essence, a series of separations that happen where you are separated from the general population. First of all, you're separated from being, you know, you're given so much money and access and whatever that you are no longer really to able to relate with your own family in certain senses. And really you. You become a smaller and smaller. You become more and more compact and more, I don't know, hermetically sealed away from everything you knew before. And therefore you become an even more exciting and pliable tool to be used by, in this case, the capital.
- [33:11]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [33:15]
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- [33:45]
Caroline
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- [34:02]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, do you.
- [34:03]
Caroline
Who's your favorite of the other Victors? Like, tell me what you think of all that.
- [34:09]
Tracey Thomas
I mean, look, I love, I love them all. I love Finnick, I love Joanna. I love BT Nuts and bolts. I like both of them. I don't, I don't. I mean, I think probably my favorite, favorite Victor is Haymitch, but that sort of feels like a cheat because he's our mentor, so we were with him longer. I am again, back to this, like, taking care of her characters. She gives us depth for all of these people, right? Like Annie, who is Finnick's love interest, who's another Victor who, like, goes crazy in her games and never really recovers in his sort of damaged goods, if you will. Like the fact that the hottest guy in all of the victors, like Mr. Handsome, is in love with this woman who is struggling. That says so much to us about who Finnick is. And that's such a small and important detail to that character. So, you know, it really endears you to him. And so I do really like him. I don't, I don't know. Who's your favorite? I can't pick one.
- [35:22]
Caroline
I don't know. It's such a silly question. Like, who's your favorite? Like, they, they all do rock. But, like, I feel like I have had more. I was definitely one of the younger Readers who, on the first go round did not understand why anyone would want to be with Peeta.
- [35:40]
Tracey Thomas
Same. I still. I still don't like Peeta. I'm sorry. I still don't like PETA. He's just annoying to me. Like, he's a love bomber. Get like PETA. Get out of her face. She doesn't want to be with you. Why are you forcing this issue? Like, you. And then when he, like, takes it so personal that she's like, oh, I thought we were just acting. Like you told her you were acting. She doesn't feel it. She's not down. Leave her alone. Let her go be with Gail.
- [36:04]
Caroline
Yeah, it is. They're like, okay, this might be a little early in podcast for fan theories, but I'm not generally a fan fiction person.
- [36:16]
Tracey Thomas
Me either. No.
- [36:18]
Caroline
I'm fascinated by the movement of it, but I don't really get anything out of it myself. However, like, I don't think Katniss is straight. I just don't.
- [36:29]
Tracey Thomas
Okay. Okay. I've never considered this at all. Yeah, okay, sure. I don't hate it.
- [36:35]
Caroline
Okay. Here are my workings. Like, the. The, like, every time, okay, she's 16. Every time, she's got the hottest best friend in the whole world. And every time she's with Gayle, who is her, like, her bro, who she goes hunting with. And he's there from, like, page one. He's like, yeah, everybody in District 12 is obsessed with Gail and wants to jump his bones, and he's probably the most beautiful man who's ever existed, but I don't really see it and I don't really feel it. And he's. Everyone assumes we're going to get married, but I don't really want that. And you're like, okay, it doesn't sound like you're really feeling this at all.
- [37:08]
Tracey Thomas
No.
- [37:09]
Caroline
And then it's like, PETA. And he's like, well, you know, he is great, and I do find a lot of comfort in being with him, but I'm not attracted to him at all. And perhaps if. And perhaps if I wasn't so concerned with my everyday survival and the survival of my family, I would perhaps be able to think about what he's offering me and what he's telling me. And then every single time Katniss sees another female tribute, she's like a cartoon wolf. She's like, oh, God. She sees Glimmer for the first time and she. She's like, well, it looks like someone's going for the sexy angle with her legs. And then when she sees Joanna, she's like, hope Joanna doesn't get naked again. And you're like, you are gay.
- [37:52]
Tracey Thomas
Look, I don't disagree with that. I don't disagree with that. I can see it. I mean, sure, sure. Like, I have no pushback. I'm just processing. I can definitely see it. I think. I think it's in book three, where Gale is like, I knew you were gonna kiss me. And she's like, how? And he's like, cause every time I'm sick. Or like, you only kiss me when I'm in pain or something like that. And I thought that was really interesting. Cause it's true for both Gale and Peeta. Like, the time she, like, really wants to kiss Peeta is when he's, like, drugged and, like, dying in the cave or whatever. And I'm sort of like, Katniss. Like, there's definitely something weird going on there. And maybe because it. Because she comes from a line of healers, but she's, like, not good at medicine. So she's like, this is my one cur. My lips are the purest medicine.
- [38:41]
Caroline
The purest medicine of all.
- [38:43]
Tracey Thomas
But Also, she's, like, 16 or 17, so maybe she's, like, not that horny yet. I don't know.
- [38:49]
Caroline
Who knows who's not horny at 16 or 17?
- [38:53]
Tracey Thomas
I mean, she.
- [38:54]
Caroline
You know, she's. She hunts animals. She's like, that's definitely horny. She just doesn't know who for yet.
- [39:01]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, I don't think she's found her person yet. However, I have found my person, and it is Gayle. I love Gayle. PETA kick rocks.
- [39:10]
Caroline
Oh. Oh, my God. Okay. That's incredibly controversial.
- [39:12]
Tracey Thomas
I don't care. I don't care. I have a finish book three for my reread, though, so I can't remember if Gail does something awful or not, but where Gail does something so awful. Okay, I don't remember. I blocked it out because I love Gail, but also, Peeta is awful. Okay, I'm so sorry. PETA is a bad hang. Like, I do not want to be on PETA's team. I don't care how good he is in front of the cameras. PETA annoys me. And I thought maybe as an adult reading these books, I wouldn't hate him so much, but I'm just really grossed out by PETA.
- [39:43]
Caroline
Oh, my. Okay, okay, I get it. I respect it. I hear you. I listen, and I don't judge. However, I feel like I definitely was so annoyed by him in the. When I. When I First read it, and I remember feeling that I love. Back in the day, I loved the first two. But Mockingjay I didn't like as much. And I think I remember the reason that I didn't like Mockingjay as much was because I was like, girl, the field is wide open. Gale is right there. Like, just. Just fuck Gale already.
- [40:16]
Tracey Thomas
I want to feel right now in Mockingjay, I'm like, kanis, let's go, babe.
- [40:21]
Caroline
He's right there.
- [40:23]
Tracey Thomas
Peter's locked up. You know, I don't believe in prisons.
- [40:26]
Caroline
He's locked up and he hates you.
- [40:28]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, I don't believe in prisons or whatever, but, like, he is locked up. That's the current reality. So take advantage, babe. Or Finnick. I'm also team Finnick. Like, I would have loved a Katniss Finnick moment. Sure.
- [40:42]
Caroline
You're just anyone but Peeta.
- [40:44]
Tracey Thomas
Anyone hot. Yes, sure. I just. I had this. People who know me will know. I have, like, this very weird. Um. It's not weird. It's probably, like, by design, but I have this very strong feeling that in my fictional world, whether that's tv, film, or books or whatever, I only want hot people. And I know that that's, like, crazy.
- [41:09]
Caroline
And that is a moral stance for me. Yeah.
- [41:11]
Tracey Thomas
Like, it's just like, oh, people. Like. Like, one of my favorite shows is Grey's Anatomy. Do you know why? Because everyone's beautiful. Like, they're just beautiful doctors everywhere. I think. I think, like, more like my commercial F life. I think if I'm reading, like, literary fiction, I don't think about it as much. But in something that's, like, sort of fun and goes down smooth, I'm just like, I want you to be hot. I want you to be beautiful. Katus has beautiful hair. I love imagining it. What could it look like? What are the waves like? I just. I just want beautiful things. So I love.
- [41:38]
Caroline
Peter's described as being stocky and blonde. And you're like, that's not fun for me.
- [41:42]
Tracey Thomas
PETA's a no for me. Gail is described as my dream, as is Finnick. Like, Finnick is tan and blonde. I'm like, okay. Hello.
- [41:52]
Caroline
I also like someone being. Though I did like Peeta more on this go around. And I think the reason I liked it because I enjoyed the kind of, like, the gendered flip of, like, Katniss is, like, a strong warrior, but she has no social skills and no gift of the gab whatsoever, which is generally a kind of very feminized trait. And so to have Peeta have no particular warrior skills. But to be really fluid socially, I just found to be a nice flip. But as you say, not one that turned me on.
- [42:29]
Tracey Thomas
No, I mean, PETA, like, I think. I think what she's doing with Peeta is really interesting. But as far as, like, who I'm rooting for, not PETA. But I think you're right. I mean, not only does he have no, like, warrior skills or, like, masculine, traditionally masculine, considered skills, he's good at painting, decorating cakes and lifting heavy objects. Like, he is just. He's totally emasculated for the readers, especially in the first book, you know? And, like, he's getting carried around by Finnick in book two. Like, he's dead weight and just, like, lugging.
- [43:10]
Caroline
He's quite literally dead weight.
- [43:12]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah. Like, she doesn't do him any favors in the hunk category. And I think that's really interesting that people become so obsessed with PETA because I'm like, oh, you're a good person. Like, you can see what's in. Not me. I'm like, oh, he's ugly and he's bad at war.
- [43:30]
Caroline
He's ugly and bad at war. It's so toxic of us. But I so get it. I just feel like in your. In your kind of, as you say, in your kind of commercial fiction life, when you're in that reading mode where you're reading 100 pages a fucking day and you're just like, you're right. People better be hot. And also they better be dangerous. Like, there's a TV show I've recently fallen in love with called Smash. I'm not sure if you're aware of it at all. It's like, yeah, it's about Broadway. It's like a soap opera about Broadway. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [44:02]
Tracey Thomas
It's old with Katherine McKay.
- [44:05]
Caroline
Yes. Yeah, yeah. It's like 15 years old.
- [44:07]
Tracey Thomas
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
- [44:08]
Caroline
Yeah, I was sick lately and I just watched all of that, so it's very new to me. But there's a character in that whose name I can't remember, but he's like a theater director who is like your typical slimy English man who, like, takes advantage of all the actresses and, like, is completely awful. Like, he, like. He literally, like, tries to sexually assault one of our main heroines in the first episode. And I'm like, yay, be my boyfriend. It's just like when a character is in, like, is toxic, but in a certain kind of feminized genre or a feminized space.
- [44:42]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [44:43]
Caroline
It. Therefore, it takes the real danger out of him. And it just makes him my plaything. As opposed to.
- [44:48]
Tracey Thomas
Yes.
- [44:48]
Caroline
Like, yeah, he's my plaything where I can imagine being his.
- [44:52]
Tracey Thomas
Right, right. It's like a consensual bad. Like it's like, like the viewer, you're like, I'm into this. I'm opting in to like being on your side kind of thing. And I feel like, what's so funny? This is. People are gonna hate this. Sorry everyone. Now that I'm old, because when I read the books the first time I was in my early 20s. Now I'm pushing 40. And I gotta say, I sort of was into Haymitch this time around.
- [45:22]
Caroline
Oh, I'm banging to Haymitch.
- [45:24]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah. But I'm like, I'm like, like this is how you know you're old when the like drunk, like just like drunk asshole is like your type. I'm like, katniss, is he too old for you?
- [45:39]
Caroline
Oh my God. But it's like when they have their little drinking night at the beginning of Catching Fire. Find that. I find that very involved. I was very invested. Yes.
- [45:48]
Tracey Thomas
But more that I'm just like, I'm Katniss in this scene. Like I, I was not invested in the idea that like a 40 year old man was drinking with a 16 year old. Like, I, like that is not what I'm into. I'm into. If I were Katniss as an almost 40 year old woman drinking with a 40 year old man. You know what I mean? Like, I definitely. It's like a. It's a different kind of like, it's like you almost put yourself into these. Like I certainly do put myself. I am Katniss. So I like Gale. I don't like Peeta. I don't actually care what Katniss is telling us textually. Like, I'm not interested in doing a close read of Katniss's feelings. Like, it's just me, Tracy, AKA Katniss for these scenes, you know? Like, I don't know if that makes sense, but that's sort of how I read some of this.
- [46:35]
Caroline
No, of course. That is like, interestingly, I think that is another part of like Katniss is like a really strongly written protagonist.
- [46:43]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [46:44]
Caroline
But I think editors and commissioners of this genre definitely understood that exact thing that you're feeling right now, which is like, let's just give the reader a nice warrior girl who they can slip into and just. Yeah. And it's kind of like a live action role play, you know, which is what so many of these books, that's the itch they scratch. But what Hunger Games does is it scratches that itch. That kind of tacky little what if I'm Katniss and I think about Gale and whatever, but while also being wonderful pieces of art that have a lot to say, like politically about like war and fame and propaganda, you know.
- [47:23]
Tracey Thomas
And interestingly enough, the worst parts of the book are when Katniss is like, who do I like? Like, those are the parts of the book for me where I'm just like. I think maybe that's why I'm putting myself in it because I'm just like, I am bored here. The only time I ever feel bored in the books is when she's like. And I'm talking to Gale and I don't know if I like him and I don't want to tell him about. I'm just like, bitch, shut up. Like, get back to fighting. Or like, get back to being stressed out a little bit.
- [47:51]
Caroline
You're so correct. You're right. Those are the dullest parts of the book. And like, what's interesting, I read a quote from Suzanne Collins in researching this where she said, I wasn't thinking about Peter and Gail as two sides of a love triangle. I was thinking of them as two points of reason in the argument for whether or not there is such a thing as a just war. Which is like, what a quote. But like, I do see it in that, like the conversations that are fascinating, particularly in the third book, which is where we see the most of Gale, is the way that Katniss and Gale argue about the Capitol and whether or not she should have sympathetic for the people who live there. And there's this fantastic argument they have about her makeup team, her prep team who are captured by the Capitol and Captured by District 13, who are the kind of Soviet sort of stand ins and they're supposed to be bringing a brighter new day to the people of Panem. But they are also torturing people. And they've tortured her prep team. And Gail says to her, why would you, yes, they shouldn't be torturing people, but why would you care so deeply about these people who essentially groomed you for slaughter? And she kind of defends them. And so, so, you know, Gail exists on this quite extreme end of the spectrum of like, if I think he literally says, if I could push a button and kill everybody in the capital right now, I would, versus Peter, who is a more measured kind of. He just wants to sort of work towards what is the least amount of bloodshed we can have. And what is the way I can save the people I love? You know what I mean? Like, it's a far more measured response.
- [49:29]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah. I mean, so, okay, I know that I just went on a whole thing about I like Gayle. Cause Gayle's hot, which is true. So I don't want to negate that at all. I also, though, want to say that politically, I also align much closer to Gale. Like, I am somewhere between a Katniss and a Gale, as opposed to between a Katniss and a Peeta. And I would like to say that I'm pretty far from a PETA, at least who I would like, who. What I believe about these things. And I think that's also why I am attracted to Gail, because I'm like, yes, say it. Like, tell it. Like, it is. Like, to PETA. I'm just like, we don't need any more moderates. Obviously. I am an American living in America in the second Trump administration. And I think this book, these books, reading them now, thinking about them now, especially, you know, not to get too political, which is really hard for me. But, like, especially, like, it's really hard to read these books and not think about Israel and Palestine. Like, it's really hard to read these books and not think about so much that's going on and the continued sort of both what's going on in Israel and Palestine, but also sort of the ways in which our capital in the United States, Washington, D.C. and the people who are in charge there currently, are taking things away from the districts. Right. Like, we're watching as Trump tries to do a lot of things that take away a lot of rights from a lot of people and a lot of access and information and all of these things that just feel so capital coded. And so I think, like, reading it now as an adult, having lived, you know, since I read the books the first time we had the murder of Trayvon Martin in the United States. We had the entire Black Lives Matter movement, 2020. We've had the majority of Obama's presidencies. Like, we've had Trump. Like, we've had so much happen. And I've changed so much politically that as I read it this time, time, I'm just like, yo, Suzanne Collins is doing so much. And again, I don't think that she was writing towards our future. I think she was looking at the past and looking at the current moment and seeing some writing on the wall. And, you know, so much dystopian fiction is just people looking back and saying. I mean, Octavia Butler famously talks about how in for Parable of the Sower, she just, like, looked at weather reports and was like, yeah, California's getting drier. Like, fires will get worse. Right. She wasn't like, ah. She just took what she knew, what she could find and extrapolated it out. And I think that Suzanne Collins clearly was doing that. But it feels different reading these books now, for sure.
- [52:07]
Caroline
Politically, I had that exact same thought, particularly, you know, with Israel and Palestine. And I think what. I mean, I remember reading a quote from Suzanne Collins that was a. That she was flipping through her channels one night and she saw coverage of the Iraq war. And then she flipped over and she saw Survivor, and she thought about how the people she was seeing were, like, kind of roughly the same age and the blending of those two realities, both of which were being captured by cameras, both of which were being provided for very separate forms of information, entertainment. And then I thought about it in the context of, like, literally. I mean, this podcast won't go out for a little while, but the week that I started rereading, in order to prepare for this podcast, the Palestinian filmmaker Hamdan Bilal, who won an Oscar in early March for his movie no Other Land, and then three weeks later was lynched by Israeli settlers. And I. He has survived. But it struck me that, like, I was like, wow, so much of these books that I'm reading are about, like, the. How we capture violence and how we celebrate violence. Yeah. And it was so strange to me, that was like, wow, this man was celebrated at the highest form of entertainment culture. Like, the most prestigious award that we have for all of entertainment culture. We gave it to him. It was kind of our version of, like, well done for being our victor.
- [53:48]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [53:49]
Caroline
And then three weeks later, this happens to him. And it really struck me that, like, you know, phrases like more timely than ever are the laziest words in book criticism. But, like, it felt like, you know, Suzanne Collins, she was viewing this juxtaposition of Survivor and the Iraq War, and it feels like the juxtaposition has blended into just one blob of experience of, like, it's like, imagine if those people on the Iraq war were on Survivor. You know what I mean? It's, like, fucked to me. It really tripped me up. And particularly when we're still witnessing bombings in Palestine and I'm literally going around with my audiobook of Mockingjay as Katniss visits these. These districts that have been blown to pieces and her own home has been blown to pieces. And, you know, and ultimately, there's always a war on somewhere, but this war in particular and the way this war has been photographed and disseminated to us feels fucking haunting.
- [54:49]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [54:50]
Caroline
Anyway.
- [54:50]
Tracey Thomas
And also, I think specifically, I don't. I can't obviously speak to how it's being, you know, broadcast where you are, but one of the things that's really interesting about the war on Palestine and in Gaza, here in the States is what is reminiscent of the books for me, is the sort of two sides of it, which is really reminiscent of Gail and PETA and, like, having these two concurrent conversations. You know, there are people who believe what's happening in Palestine is a genocide. There are people who believe that the Israelis are under attack and they have the right to defend themselves and that, you know, America has a job to do to protect them. And that we're having these arguments about an ongoing war in real time, which. Usually my experience, you know, like, with the Iraq War, is that while there was dissent about what was happening in the United States, especially as the war went on, it wasn't sort of a conversation at every turn. It was like, we're gonna go in there and we're gonna bomb them until they apologize for 9, 11 or whatever. Right. Like, this is very different. And this does feel more Hunger Games, like, where everyone has sort of a side that they're on. And I think that's interesting. It feels a like of first for me, as far as in my life, of how we talk about where I think maybe. Maybe more reminiscent of the Vietnam War, which I obviously wasn't alive for, but that there was more sort of in the moment, dissent.
- [56:33]
Caroline
Yes.
- [56:34]
Tracey Thomas
Which. Which is sort of like PETA ends up being the mouthpiece for the Capitol in a lot of ways. Like. Like you were saying, and sort of this, like, moderate voice of like, yes, it's bad, but it could be worse. And then we have Gayle, who's like, what the fuck? This is fucking terrible. And I don't know, I just feel like that piece of it, that piece of the Hunger Games, felt particularly prescient or relevant to what I'm seeing and consuming on social media and regular news.
- [57:10]
Caroline
You know what part of it that really struck me is this bit in the second book where they've been called up for the Quarter Quell, and everyone is so upset that she. You know, that these Victors are being forced to go through this thing again. And Katniss keeps meeting people who saw her in the first game.
- [57:36]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [57:36]
Caroline
And all they can say to her is like, I remember where I was. And she says that everybody she meets is like, I remember where I was. I was in the bathtub. And then I saw that you got those berries out. And I rushed out and da, da, da. And like I was getting my hair done, I was doing this. Which is quite like, it's quite natural. It's very human. Like, even as you say, she serves every single character, even the capital characters who are just sort of side characters are very infused with their own humanity. And you know, it struck, she has this thought to herself where she's like, I was the person who went through these things, but all they really care about is situating themselves in my memories. And it really struck me about like how our population, our global population is absorbing the war through social media. And so much of it is filtered through the lens of here's how I feel, here's what I'm doing. I look at my children and I think this and, and in one way that's incredibly natural and normal in human and in another, it completely decentralizes the humans who are at the middle of the conflict. But on another, you're like, well, how else do we make sense of it if not to involve ourselves? You know, it really spun me through a loop, that one, you know?
- [58:52]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, that's what makes these books so good. Like they work. They work because they get at some of these, you know, human impulses and conversations, modern conversations about war and violence and what we owe our children. I mean, the fact that it's like their kids that go into the Hunger Games, like it could just as easily have been 18 to 28 year olds. Right? Like it could just have as easily been young adults, but it's not. It's like 12 is so fucking young.
- [59:31]
Caroline
12, 12.
- [59:33]
Tracey Thomas
Like if you're 12 and you're trying to fight an 18 year old boy, man, like, you know, I guess, I guess technically 18 is a man, but you're trying to fight an 18 year old or 17 year old boy. Like, are you kidding me? A 12 year old boy and a 17 year old boy, like those are different species.
- [59:54]
Caroline
But even like a 15 year old girl and a 17 year old boy are species.
- [59:59]
Tracey Thomas
Sure, sure.
- [60:00]
Caroline
There's a frequent conversation about age in the Hunger Games and how people don't like it when a 12 year old is in the games. But having said that, the 12 year olds are still in the games, but there is never a conversation about gender, which I find really interesting, which is that, like it's an Obvious thing that boys have just more upper body strength than the average teenage girl. And yet there's never a conversation about how with the odds ever being in your favor, those odds are stacked. You know, it makes me wonder why she doesn't deal with that.
- [60:33]
Tracey Thomas
Because I think what we were talking about earlier is that while a lot of the Games are physical, so much of it is mental. And so I don't think that, like, I mean, I'm wary of gender science in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to children. But also, like, I think what we see is that a lot of the. When we start to hear about how different people won over the years, you know, there's people who win, there's all sorts of different tactics, right? Like you can hide, you can wait till the end, you know, you can break. Like Thresh, who is arguably like one of the biggest, buffest, strongest specimens or whatever in the Games, he's succeeding because he found a way to find a field of food. Like, he's not succeeding because he's killing a bunch of people and like choking them out or whatever. And so I think that some of what she's getting at to like that feminist critique is that Even though an 18 year old boy might be physically stronger than a 12 year old girl, Rue outlasted a lot of people. Right? It was, you know, like, I think that she's sort of getting at this idea that like these, that children have all sorts of different ways of being strong and being resilient that aren't simply relegated to like upper body strength or the ability to like, like, you know, Katniss can climb trees and she can go from branch to branch because she's small, a bigger person, the branches would break. So, you know, so I think there's advantage. I think she's trying to show us the advantages of, you know, different types of bodies and genders and all sorts of ages and stuff.
- [62:10]
Caroline
Yeah, it is, it is very well played because I think there are other creators who'd be like. And then on day one, the four, the four biggest boys banded together, murdered everyone and then murdered each other. Could we actually talk about Rue for a second? Of course, because she's such a beloved character. But also the way in which the series events unfold between Rue and Katniss end up becoming extremely politically significant. So what transpires between Rue and Katniss in the Hunger Games is they like, they develop this bond partially because, I mean, you know, Katniss is the ultimate sort of that phrase that she's they talk about it with Bostonians and English people. She is kind, but she's not nice. Like, she has great. She has not a lot of chat, but she has great compassion for the people she sees around her. She notices rue from day one. Rue is 12. She's very small. She's from district 11. And she reminds her of Prim, her sister, who's the same age. They strike up this bond. They help feed each other. They look out for each other. It's incredibly touching. And then they develop a plan to, like, blow up the food to help starve out the other contestants because they found ways of feeding themselves. And then while that is happening, Rue is stabbed by another contestant to death. And the way Katniss reacts to this, she's so upset by it, and it's such an upsetting scene. She sort of sings rude sleep. And then she, like, covers her body. Sorry, I'm getting upset. All right. And she covers her body in flowers. And then she. I mean, I think this happens in the movies. I think it happens in the book, too. She kind of makes this symbol, which is her three fingers, three middle fingers together. And she. She sort of gestures to the sky. And this is like her moment of solidarity that she is giving to not just mark Rue's death, but to give solidarity to the citizens of District 11, who then band together and raise money for her to, like, have bread, which is, like. There's this whole system of sponsors and gifts that are incredibly expensive. That's fascinating within these books. And they're. It's such a small detail, but so fun. And what this means, this is one of, like, the. You know, this is one of the early symbols of, like, the Games not just being the Games anymore, the Games as being. And Katniss being this propaganda figure, this accidental propaganda figure, because these Games were meant to drive dissent between the districts. But what this. This sort of beautiful gesture does is show that, like, this child is like family to me. We are the same. You as a district, district 11. You are family to district 12. And this is, like, one of the sparks that starts the revolution. And I just love it.
- [65:03]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah. I mean, it's so beautiful. I think, also to an earlier point that I was making about Katniss is like, Katniss has no clue what she's doing. She doesn't see. I guess she sort of does. She sort of says, like, I'm gonna give her this nice burial because it's the one thing I can do for her, even though we're not supposed to like each other. But she doesn't understand the impact of her actions. And when President Snow comes to her in the beginning of book two and is like, you know, gonna need you to smooth things over. Cause you sorta stepped out of line, girly, she kind of doesn't even understand that part of it. Like, she doesn't see her impact. Which I think, you know, speaks to how a lot of 16 and 17 year old girls feel about themselves. That they're inadequate and that what they do doesn't matter in the scheme of the world. Maybe a lot of 16 and 17 year olds in general, but yes, those moments with her and Rue are so beautiful. And the way that Rue's family and the whole district engage with Katniss when she goes on her Victor tour, which starts in District 11. And PETA sort of does his politician thing of like, we're gonna give one of our earnings each month to the family, to everyone here. And like, I don't know, PETA's giving. PETA's giving politician for me. Can you tell? I hate him. I just don't like Peeta.
- [66:35]
Caroline
He's giving Oprah. It's very. You get a car. You get a car.
- [66:38]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, yeah. And then Katniss like locks eyes with Rue's sister and feels compelled to say something and she holds up the finger and then, and then one of like an old man in the district holds up, does the three finger salute and everyone, you know, sort of rallies behind this thing. And sort of again, it's Rue giving Katniss, sort of making Katniss look good. And you know, there's a reading of these scenes between Katniss and Rue that is, I think, maybe extremely American, extremely me. Black woman in America, which is that Katniss is nothing without a black woman behind her, a black girl behind her. Like she does not have the ability to do what needs to be done without the support of black people. Right? Like Thresh gives her life for Rue, makes her a lovable character. Rue is the one that ends up through Rue's death, Katniss gets food. Through Rue's death, Katniss becomes this. Truly falls into her political destiny as this figurehead for the revolution. And that it is because of the black characters in this book that the revolution starts. And I think, because I think that Suzanne Collins is a genius, I think that's on purpose. I'm sure there are people who would say, stop bringing race into this, blah, blah, blah, but it is in this, and I think it is a not important piece of American history that so Many white sort of revolutionary figures were supported by, engaged with, promoted, uplifted, or taught by black revolutionaries in this country. I mean, even most recently, I'm thinking of, like, Bernie Sanders. His famous start was protesting at the civil rights movement and getting arrested. And I think if this is sort of a version of America, it's important that Rue is black and that Thresh is black and that they end up protecting Katniss and being allied to her.
- [68:58]
Caroline
Obviously, I can't speak the same kind of. I'm not American and I'm not black, but, like, thank you for giving. I hadn't really thought about it from that perspective before, but you're right, it is no accident that those characters are black. And even the fact that they are from this agricultural district as well, and that they clearly are in the American south, even though it's not put a point on it. And the way that Rue describes her Life in District 11, which is so different to how Katniss describes her life in District 12, she talks about this kind of this incredibly harsh, crackdown, enormous kind of farming system where they're like, they're picking fruit. You know, they have overseers still. Yeah, yeah. And they are heavily supervised. And she talks about a kid who was beaten to death for taking. Trying to take his night vision goggles home. And it's like these books don't necessarily dwell on a sentence to sentence level on race, but it is. You can clearly see these characters are being treated differently because of it. It is definitely informed by it.
- [69:58]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, I think that's right. And I think, you know, the scene in which she's in District 11 and they stand up for her. Right. That they embrace her.
- [70:08]
Caroline
Yeah. And they're the first ones to.
- [70:11]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, they're the first ones. And that is in line with the American tradition of protest and revolution and resilience that it would be from the black communities. It's no accident that one of the big mottos of American politics right now is listen to black women. Right. Like that this group of people who continue to vote for the rights of other people are still disregarded and sort of. What did Malcolm X say? The most disrespected person in the society is black women. I think, you know, again, I don't know, part of what I like about Susan Collins is I don't know her politics, but I don't think. I don't think it's an accident that District 11 is portrayed in the ways that it is and that District 11 is the first district to get behind Katniss. That her allies are from District 11. And I think in book two, we find out that Haymitch's best friend from the group is Chaff, who's also from District 11, who's also black. And I believe he's also friendly with the woman from District 11, but she doesn't. She's not around as much, and she dies very early in the Quarter Quell, if I remember correctly.
- [71:22]
Caroline
It's interesting, though, because, like, we're probably getting near the end of this podcast, but, like, if we're talking about lessons that this podcast has for us, not this podcast lessons that this book series has for us, I think, like, I feel like there was a period of sort of very online politics where we really went hard on how different people were from one another. And I don't think that was. Those arguments were made in bad faith. But sometimes I think that what it resulted in is people feeling like they had nothing in common with one another. And I feel like a great lesson of the Hunger Games is feeling that like you have far more in common with people who you don't like. Like, who you don't know. Then. Then. Then you think. And the thing you have in common is that you are both being oppressed by the same forces, and you are discouraged from thinking you have that in common. And every time you believe that you are playing into the hands of people who are more powerful than you.
- [72:17]
Tracey Thomas
Totally. I mean, I think that's. What if we could understand that lesson, Wouldn't that be amazing? Yeah.
- [72:26]
Caroline
What do you think? If there are any.
- [72:28]
Tracey Thomas
Sorry, no. I just think. I think that's the lesson.
- [72:33]
Caroline
Anything else? Any other lessons from Hunger Games that we should bring into our understanding of the human condition?
- [72:39]
Tracey Thomas
I mean, I'm sure there's other lessons. I'm sure there's probably a lot of other lessons, but the one that you said is, like, now just really sticking in my brain. I mean, I'm sure there's lessons about, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know that there's any other lessons that matter as much as the lesson that is the oppressed people, if they chose to band together, are so much more powerful than the oppressor, and there's so many more of them, and they are so much better. You know, they could be so much better for each other. And playing into the hands of the oppressor is a huge mistake. And the whole point of oppressing is to put you against other people so that you're weak which is like, we.
- [73:26]
Caroline
Don'T have a Hunger Games in our society yet. But like the same tactics the Hunger Games uses. The Hunger Games as a TV show within this world are being used in our phones every moment of every day.
- [73:37]
Tracey Thomas
Oh, yeah.
- [73:38]
Caroline
And it's like, hard not to get too tinful of fucking Hattie about it.
- [73:41]
Tracey Thomas
It's definitely bleak. The reality is bleak. It's not quite as literal, but it's certainly, you know, as we mentioned before, things are happening right now that are parallels to this. And again, the history, I think, like, you know, we're not so far removed from the American south of the lynching as entertainment. You know, they used to lynch people and have postcards of the lynching and there would be thousands of people gathered around to watch a black person be hung and they would cut off their body parts and hand them out like, so it's not. None of this is so too far gone for American history. I can't speak to British or Irish history, but I'm sure I know a little bit about the British. I know enough to know. Not great. Not great over there either. But I can just speak to, you know, what I know about American history, which unfortunately is just the tip of the iceberg of American history. There's so much we still don't know about the horrible things that were done. But I do think, like, yeah, we have. We're living in our own Hunger Games in a lot of ways. And though not literally, not yet at least, thankfully.
- [75:00]
Caroline
Well, this is one of those things where it's like dystopian fiction became a kind of a tired out old buzzword very quickly, but it's kind of underestimated at your peril. Because generally where, as you said earlier in the podcast, where dystopian fiction comes from is somebody notices something weird about the culture, they put that thing under a microscope, they blow it up, and they really, like, they. By blowing it up, they try and investigate it. It's sort of all the nooks and crannies of it. You know, like they put it on a projector screen and then what that normally does is that like the culture will eventually catch up to it. Right. Because if you're exaggerating something weird that's already happening and if that thing goes unchecked, then life will begin to mimic it naturally, you know.
- [75:48]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah.
- [75:49]
Caroline
And also they're just really fun books.
- [75:51]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah. And also they are perfectly paced and you won't be able to put them down. And they're amazing on the craft level.
- [75:57]
Caroline
They are fucking Amazing.
- [75:59]
Tracey Thomas
Have you. You haven't read the newest one yet?
- [76:02]
Caroline
No, but I was about. I think this has gone rather well, and I was about to ask if you wanted to come back at some point to talk about the new ones.
- [76:10]
Tracey Thomas
Let's do it. Have you read the Green or the Purple?
- [76:12]
Caroline
No, I have not read either.
- [76:13]
Tracey Thomas
I haven't read either.
- [76:14]
Caroline
I have both of them on my Impishel.
- [76:16]
Tracey Thomas
Same, Same. Okay. I'm finishing Mockingjay, and then I'm going to read Green, and then I'm going to read Purple, So I will come back after that.
- [76:24]
Caroline
Okay. Shit. So, okay, I think we're. I'm also finishing Mockingjay, so I think we're going to be on basically the same read schedule. That'll be fun.
- [76:30]
Tracey Thomas
Let's do it. My goal is to finish. Because I have so much reading to do for my own podcast. My goal is to finish Purple by June.
- [76:38]
Caroline
We can do that because this episode isn't going to go out until June anyway or until mid. Maybe mid May. So that gives us loads of time.
- [76:46]
Tracey Thomas
Let's do it. Oh, my God, I'm so excited. Let's do it.
- [76:49]
Caroline
This is so great, Tracy. It's been a fucking delight having you on. Can we hear more about your podcast, the Stacks, please?
- [76:55]
Tracey Thomas
Yeah, it's called the Stacks. It's a podcast about books. I talk to authors and readers about books once a month. We do a book club. It happens every Wednesday. I've been doing it for seven years, so there are so many episodes, like, almost 400 at this point. So I'm sure there is an author or a book that we have covered that you have read and have liked, Dear Listener, and I hope that you'll check it out.
- [77:20]
Caroline
Do you have, like, a starter episode that you always recommend to people, being like, oh, I'm really proud of this one. Fuck, don't.
- [77:25]
Tracey Thomas
Because it depends on what people like. Like, it just depends on what books. But, like, okay, I don't think these are my best episodes, but I have had some, like, fancy people on the show, so. Angelina Jolie did my podcast. Quentin Tarantino did my podcast. Stacey Abrams, Beto o' Rourke, Desus and Mero did the show. Again, I don't think those are the best episodes, but those are, like, the fanciest people, which I think is different because they're probably like the. Well, Stacey Abrams is a pretty book person, but the rest of them are sort of like, the least book people.
- [78:03]
Caroline
I can't believe you did a Tarantino podcast. I can't wait to hear how that went.
- [78:06]
Tracey Thomas
It was good. I actually, I do really like that one. I think that's a really good, good one. So, yeah, I mean, I've had so many amazing guests and if you sort of just google like the stacks and then type in a book name, you can see if we, we've done it on the show.
- [78:19]
Caroline
It is so fun talk to you. So fun to talk to a fellow veteran podcaster who's just been out down here in the content mind, just talking.
- [78:28]
Tracey Thomas
Into the talking for years. That's exactly right. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for having me. This was so much fun.
- [78:35]
Caroline
I loved it. I'll talk to you soon, Tracey. Hey, you know what would make your customer service help desk way better? Dumping it and then switching to intercom. But you're not quite ready to make that change. We get it. That's why Fin, the world's leading AI customer service agent, is now available on every help desk. Fin can instantly resolve up to 80% of your tickets, which makes your customers happier and gets you off the customer service rep. Hiring Treadmill Fin by Intercon, the leading customer service AI agent now available on every help desk.