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- [00:00]
Mark
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- [00:38]
Caroline
Hello, and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where the movie is better than the book and the sequel is better than the original. My name is Caroline, and like all history, mine is emotionally layered and culturally dense. Joining me is the man volunteering to amplify my lunch experience. It's Okechuku and Zelu. Hi.
- [00:56]
Okechuku
Hi. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast.
- [01:00]
Caroline
Thank you so much for opening my world.
- [01:03]
Okechuku
You're so welcome. God, if one more person says that to me.
- [01:07]
Caroline
It's not just their world, I bet. But I have been doing this like little mini season on musicals at the moment, and I cannot believe that in these episodes I've been doing in this the kind of the anti snobbery podcast du jour. I have spent a portion of almost every episode dialing dunking on the Mean Girls musical. Even though I have never seen it.
- [01:32]
Okechuku
I just, I just, I just, I'm. Listen to me. I'm speechless. What. What is your beef with the means? Or what was your beef with the means girl? Mean Girls musical. And has that now changed?
- [01:44]
Caroline
My beef was, now that I really reflect on it, mostly a marketing beef. And that's a very boring artistic fight to have with anything. It's like, ooh, you know, Joan in marketing really fumble the ball. It's like, who care? They made a lovely film for you to enjoy. Shut the up. Do you know what I mean? Like there, like, as a side note, I think there is a new sort of trend for like people who are waiting on the next big celebrity, you know, gossip, or the next big Luigi Mangione story to come along to sort of like, okay, I was wondering if.
- [02:21]
Okechuku
We were going to get a chance to talk about that. My eye for listeners. My eyes just bulged. Like, why?
- [02:26]
Caroline
It could be the best story, new story to follow in. In my living memory, I think. Yes, but let's not take that.
- [02:33]
Okechuku
I will never write a story as interesting.
- [02:35]
Caroline
No, no. The fact that his parents are own elderly care homes is crazy to me. Yes, but.
- [02:42]
Okechuku
And the conspiracy theories are flying fast and free on the Internet. I mean, crazy.
- [02:48]
Caroline
All I want to do is talk about it, but I cannot timestamp this podcast too much and, or get away from Mean Girls too much. But to finish my point, I think there has been this o trend to like, while we're waiting for the next big story to come along, to like pick apart like marketing and press campaigns for movies when and they've become bigger entertainment than the movies, than themselves. And it, and that to me is depressing, although I do get it. But I, I, I, the thing I, I have said about this, the Mean Girls musical on this podcast, having never seen it, was that it was this sort of failure of message where they were like, oh, we're it's a musical, but we're not going to tell anyone. We're going to trick everyone into, into coming to the theater for a Mean Girls reboot, which nobody wants and nobody needs, and then, and then fail to tell them it's a musical, which actually it turns out I did want and I did need and I loved it and thank you so much for making me want it.
- [03:41]
Okechuku
I mean, I would actually like to have a word with Karen in marketing about that because your audience is girls, gays and theys. So what about that audience makes you think, makes you sick you won't enjoy a musical?
- [03:55]
Caroline
Like, I, I don't. What, what do you, okay, first of all, what do you think went wrong there in your sort of like armchair marketeer's point of view? And also, how did you discover that you loved this movie? Was it with the musical? Was it, was it the stage musical? Or did you come in fresh?
- [04:12]
Okechuku
So in terms of the marketing, I actually haven't seen very much of the marketing at all. And I think that's because I am so deep, so deep into the target audience that I didn't even need to see it. As soon as I heard that this film existed, I was like, oh, I'm going to see that. Because I haven't seen the stage musical, but I obviously have seen the original film about 50,000 times and could probably quote it line for line. So when I, when I heard about the film, I was like, okay, this is for me. They've made this. They've made this for me.
- [04:47]
Caroline
And so, okay, so when you say that you saw the original film 50,000 times and could quote for line for line, as a millennial person, you could come into that set of skills by accident because that's how much Mean Girls there has been around for the last 20 years. Like, this is a real, like, this is our breakfast Club, our pretty In Pink. This is like all of the John Hughes movies in one smash together and make it written by SNL writers. It's sort of like. Yeah, it is like our defining teen movie. I think almost other. All other teen movies that you and I would have grown up on would not have been contemporaneous to our existence. They would have been like clueless or 10 things I had about you. Whereas this came out, it was about us. And we were the age that the characters were, or maybe a little bit younger. So were you a Mean Girls fan or did it just Mean Girls happen to you the way it happened to all teenagers in 2000s?
- [05:39]
Okechuku
Well, first of all, I'm 21 years old, so.
- [05:42]
Caroline
Oh, I'm so sorry. I forgot.
- [05:44]
Okechuku
I don't know. I don't know. I think we got mixed up a little bit there. But no, so I. Yeah, I think. I don't think I went to see the film in the cinema, but I did watch it. I wouldn't. I went to like an all boys school and I was like, closeted at the time, so I would not have had like a bunch of friends that, like, I watched it with. But I remember watching the DVD of it and I remember, like Facebook groups at the time being like, named like, the Mean Girls. The Mean Girls fan group. And so you'd have, like, everybody would have, like a role based on a line in the face film. Like one time Regina George punched her in the face. It was awesome. Or I wore sweatpants. I wore sweatpants on Thursdays or whatever it was. And I just remember, like, taking over pop culture at the time in this way that to this day, if you quote it, and I was really surprised. In fact, I was talking to a bunch of my students. They had. We were like arranging a classroom at the beginning of a seminar, like the other week. This is a university, students, like 19 year olds. And I threw out. And they were like, oh, what are we supposed to do with this table? It doesn't fit. And I threw out this reference. I was like, are they gonna get this? I said, oh, she doesn't even go here. And they all laughed.
- [07:02]
Caroline
Wow.
- [07:02]
Okechuku
And I was like, oh, my God, you are. Which is firstly, obviously a tribute to me being really hilarious, but also the fact that like 19 year olds get that reference, which I'm really surprised by.
- [07:12]
Caroline
That is interesting. It's like, is that TikTok? I guess it's TikTok. But like, I also. Sometimes I wonder whether, like, you know, we were the. Like, when I think about the 90s, which I grew up in. But you didn't, because you're 21. But you have read about in books that it was such a time of, like, references. Like, I think about the Simpsons and everything being stuffed with references like Planet. Like Planet of the Apes references that I didn't understand but I still knew were Planet of the Apes references or Casablanca references. And it was just reference on reference and reference because. Because there was still a limit of culture available that all the culture got poured into one vessel, if you know what I mean. And now media is so decentralized that, like, you know, I. Yeah, I would. I. I am amazed whenever, like, my nephew or niece knows what something I grew up with is. I'm just like, please tell me more. Like, sing me the old songs. My ears are withered. Okay. And so you weren't one of those people who's like, I love the movie. I'm upset that they're making a new one, because that is a lot of people. I think you're never that person.
- [08:21]
Okechuku
Really?
- [08:21]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [08:22]
Okechuku
Who was. Who was upset about. About this?
- [08:24]
Caroline
Oh, people were upset. Okay. People were upset.
- [08:27]
Okechuku
Oh, my God. Oh, People get upset about everything these days.
- [08:30]
Caroline
They do. And I think remakes is, like, a sore point for people in general.
- [08:35]
Okechuku
Okay. Yeah.
- [08:36]
Caroline
Because they feel like, you know, everything feels like a remake or a sequel. And also, I think there's something existential that touches a person when they're like, I'm young. Because crucially, I'm young. I may be 34, but crucially, I am young. And this is a movie that came out for me as a teen. And for them to be remaking it now would. Would therefore mean that I am old and a new one is needed. Therefore, I hate it. And I will come up with, like, intellectual marketing reasons for it to be bad, when really is that it makes me fear death.
- [09:11]
Okechuku
Well, I mean, I have no experience with old, but, you know, if I were, I don't know, 36 years and one month old, then I would hope that I would have the maturity after all that time to just accept that sometimes a remake is kind of a good thing. I'm not saying that all remakes are good, because I think sometimes it is just lazy franchises looking to make money. But I feel like this did it adds something to what was there before. You know, not only in terms of the politics, because I think some of the politics of the original Mean Girls film were dodgy, and I think Tina Fey has acknowledged that, but also the fact that, come on, it's a musical and they have updated references. And it feels like it's playing on the original. Like when these Lindsay Lohan turned up. Yeah, it feels like a fun. I mean, to me, it felt like a fun second bite at the cherry.
- [10:04]
Caroline
I loved it. Like, I've literally, you know, it's 11:45 right now. I started watching it at 9am so I'm like, you've got me absolutely fresh out the egg on this one. And that's not because I'm generally badly prepared. It's because you were originally. Because I asked you if you, you know, I'm doing this little musical season, what musical you'd like to do, and you picked Tangled. And then you changed your mind. Not last minute, but, you know, like, you know, a day or two ago. So. So what prompted the change?
- [10:34]
Okechuku
Well, I started watching Tangled and I thought, I'm not sure. Like, I really enjoy that film, but I'm just not sure how much I could say about it or how much of a fun conversation we could realistically have. Whereas Mean Girls, there's such a history to it, and there's just. It's a much more. I don't know, there's just much more fun on the surface of it, I guess, than there is of Tangled. I. I don't know if you've seen Tangled. If you would have. I'm sorry. If you'd have preferred to watch that.
- [11:03]
Caroline
No, no. I'm so much happier with this because in general, I. I feel like, you know, kids stuff on this podcast never quite makes sense. Totally. Because it's like, you know, if you're. What we're gonna do, like, talk about, like, the physics of Rapunzel's hair and why that's not realistic. It's like, it's for children, you know. But.
- [11:23]
Okechuku
No. Right.
- [11:24]
Caroline
But, like, I just loved this movie. I. I'm gonna watch it again. I will probably watch it again before I watch the Mean Girls movie again. And. And yes, like, you. You know, I grew up with it. I loved it. I thought it was funny. But it also, you know, it has got to the point where the quotes. It had got to the point long ago where the quotes had become meaningless to me, really, and they had become background noise. This sort of, like, you know, when. Like that sort of Star wars thing of may the 4th be with you and all that kind of quite cheesy stuff where you forget why a thing was special to begin with. And then I really do feel like this new spin, even though some of the jokes are the same, some of the jokes are Different. Some things are kind of invented entirely. Some things. Even as a novelist, I really admired with how they collapsed, certain events together. I was like, this is actually making me remember why the original was so good and created such a splash to begin with. It kind of. It brought the background noise out into the foreground again and made me really love the whole property again. And I was very fatigued by it, like, you know, so I adored it. Like. Like. Like. Should we start from the beginning or do you want to isolate, like, individual performances?
- [12:40]
Okechuku
No, let's. I mean, let's start from the beginning. And I imagine individual performances will arise.
- [12:46]
Caroline
Yes.
- [12:46]
Okechuku
As we go along.
- [12:47]
Caroline
Yes.
- [12:48]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [12:48]
Caroline
So, yeah, you start us off.
- [12:52]
Okechuku
So I saw this in the cinema the first time, and I don't think I realized this until I watched it again for this podcast. But I missed the opening number when I watched it in the cinema, so I only caught it when I rewatched it. I have to say I'm not terribly sorry to have missed that opening number because I feel like Angouri Rice is not the strongest singer. I don't know how, but I don't know how you felt about that, but I feel like the other members of the cast were much, much stronger than her, so. And I didn't realize that was brought into quite sharp relief for me when I was watching it again. But, yeah, I thought that that opening number was a little bit disappointing. But the premise, I feel like, was updated. And I feel like when you add a song. Because they have that song at the beginning, don't they?
- [13:43]
Caroline
About how a kind of a premise she wants.
- [13:46]
Okechuku
Yeah. Like, she's not. It's not just, oh, my mum moved from Africa. It's like I was living in this really specific place. I was living in Kenya and my mum was doing this work in this specific place. And they have that song that kind of tells us what her motivations are in the way that the film kind of didn't and gives her that agency, I suppose, of wanting to move to the US for specific reasons and being socialized. And that makes much more sense and kind of makes her more of a real character rather than just being a reason for a character to be experiencing high school for the first time.
- [14:17]
Caroline
You're so right. It's a far stronger thing of, like. And I quite. What I really liked about that opening number, even though it had a real feeling of Disney daytime TV show, it had, like. You know when you see clips of Ariana Grande as, like, a teenager and you're like, oh, she's Good. But this is like a, like a, you know, an exec's version of youth of like, I have streaks in my hair and I have a guitar. Although I did what I did, like, about that opening premise was that the actor who plays Damien, you immediately know, like, oh, you're gonna be a star. You're amazing. Because he says something like, oh, he already is. Is he? I don't, I don't. I'm not familiar with him.
- [14:53]
Okechuku
Oh, yeah, he's Jaquel Spivey. He played the lead in a strange loop on Broadway.
- [15:01]
Caroline
Oh, yes.
- [15:02]
Okechuku
He might have even originated that role.
- [15:04]
Caroline
Oh, incredible.
- [15:05]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [15:05]
Caroline
Wow.
- [15:06]
Okechuku
Incredible.
- [15:07]
Caroline
Yeah. But like, and also just the comic presence is just so incredible. And I think his first line of utter dialogue is like, oh, we're Cloverfield. And it's like referencing the shaky camera and that weirdly, that tiny line, it's stupid little line of dialogue. And the way he delivered it so well. And I was so confident with him. It was like, oh, you know, this is gonna be a phone. This is gonna be a phone movie. It's gonna have like, teens on phones. But also I'm not gonna hate it because it's gonna be well observed and like, you know, it's gonna be. Have fun with it rather than, like, seen like bad things that use phones too much in it. But, like, from the off, I was like, oh, I think they're gonna handle this okay. And then when, like certain moments throughout the movie when, like, tick tock would come into it, I thought every part of it was so well observed and like, oh, this is actually how. Because like, you're, you, you're a teacher and I'm, I write for teenagers, so I go into schools, you know, fairly frequently to talk to kids. And like, the way in which, like, I think when, when, when you and I were growing up, social media was like, oh, my God, you're talking to this random person in Florida and they're 14 as well. And that was so exciting.
- [16:16]
Okechuku
Let's hope they were 14, because let's be real, sometimes they were.
- [16:19]
Caroline
But yes, I mean, I was saying, though I was a 33 year old married man, so I was also, I was only 14, so there was lies going in many directions in those days. But what I'm always amazed by when I go into schools is that their social media is this. It's every bit as busy as our algorithms or that are filled with kind of, you know, acquaintances and people we might follow because they have a bookshop in Alaska or whatever. But, like, it's all people they see all the time. And it's like. It's this whole bubble of social media where they don't. They just. It actually verifies the concept of, like, having popular kids more because they have, you know, kids are making TikToks about kids in their school. And, like, do you mean that that's actually real and terrifying. But it also puts. It puts that sort of, like the whole concept of the teen movie and, like, the popular kids and everyone's talking about it. It makes it into, like, true media, which. Which actually, even though it's a silly musical, really made me sympathize with kids today.
- [17:24]
Okechuku
Oh, for sure. And bizarrely, I think the bits that made me sympathize most were, like, Those sort of TikTok bits, especially towards the end when they had, like, extracts of, like, people on TikTok, like, finding, like, KD finding videos of, like, people talking about her and all those memes and things when everyone really started to turn against her. And I am technically on TikTok, but I keep forgetting that I have it, so I never use it. And I think I might have deleted it now. So this is not something that I can personally relate to. But just, like, the amount of stuff that was coming at her was fucking terrifying and in a way that really, like, pierced my soul, even though that wasn't my experience as a teenager.
- [18:08]
Caroline
Yeah, yeah. And like, and we hear all the time. And I. And again, I remember when this movie came out and there was a lot of very boring articles about, like, oh, they've wokeified mean girls and shut up, like, whatever, and that they had softened some of the jokes. But I think what's interesting is that there's this consensus that, like, teens can handle unpleasantness, but actually the kinds of unpleasantness that we're forcing them to go through really is beyond our understanding because there is no, like, precinct for it at all. You know, there's no. We have no idea what those kids have to go through, like, being treated as though they're kind of mass media celebrities in their own school.
- [18:54]
Okechuku
Yeah. And you're right. This is. It's not them, like, to kind of hit back at those stupid workified articles. Like, it is not teenagers that invented the world that teenagers live in today. It's people our age and older that have, like, invented TikTok and, like, thrust that upon them.
- [19:11]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [19:11]
Okechuku
And that is a really harsh environment to have to grow up in. I think I'm really glad that I didn't have to do that. Like, we, by the time I left school, I think, like, a couple of very affluent people had a camera phone and that was it. I mean, and they were already being abused. Like, I remember seeing stuff on phones. I'm like, why do you have a picture of that person's on your. What? But it was not widespread at all in the way that it definitely must be now.
- [19:43]
Caroline
Yeah. I mean, it is beyond our capabilities. It is beyond our understanding. And they have both my sympathy and my regret, you know, the. It's. It's. It's awful. But I. I. Yeah, as in that. That prelude. Like, I was like, oh, this is. Maybe this will be okay. Because I was kind of prepared to do that thing of, like, I was so convinced I wasn't gonna like this movie, that I was like, okay, but I like my friend, okay? And I'm gonna pretend to be him while I watch him, you know? But.
- [20:12]
Okechuku
Oh, my God, how was that? How did you get into character?
- [20:15]
Caroline
It was nice to be hard for a day, you know.
- [20:19]
Okechuku
Oh, sure, Caroline. This is your everyday existence, and you know it. I see you.
- [20:24]
Caroline
I see you. But, yeah, back to the kind of storytelling thing of Katie in Kenya. I'm really not. I'm really glad they gave her a country in Africa rather than just Africa.
- [20:36]
Okechuku
Oh, my God. Yes. That was. Yeah. And I think it's just. Isn't it just such a sign of the times that, what, 20 years ago, which is not that long ago, somebody would have written that and just been like, yeah, this is fine. And then all of the people who approved it and edited and acted it were like, oh, yeah, this is also fine. And that was just true for so many aspects of that film. Whereas now it feels a lot better. And also in the casting as well, like, the fact that Damien is a black guy, that Karen is South Asian, and I think they changed her surname.
- [21:08]
Caroline
Yes, Karen Shetty. I saw at some point, right?
- [21:11]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [21:12]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [21:12]
Okechuku
It just feels like, yeah, this is our normal high school, right. For a lot of parts of America.
- [21:18]
Caroline
Yeah. And it's also this thing of, like, the thing about the. The Africa thing of, like, I'm Katie and I'm from Africa is that, like. It's not that. It's not even that, like, wow, we're really making, like, life unpleasant for people who live in Africa. It's like, no, you just seem really dumb. Like, this seems like a. You make this script seem dumb and you seem dumb, but you're. You're so right. What you said about, like, the. The fact that we open on Katie sort of Enjoying her life in Kenya, but, like, knowing that she needs something more and that, like, she's growing up and Amy Adams is inexplicably her mother. She has no father. Even more inexplicably, but that she wants to go to America. And she wants. Yeah, because her dad was quite a big presence in the original movie. He was the janitor from Scrubs.
- [22:12]
Okechuku
Yes, he was the janitor from Scrubs. Oh, it's all coming back. He was that kind of friendly, firm presence that also didn't really enjoy confrontation and left that all to the mother. There's a whole thing going on.
- [22:24]
Caroline
There was a whole thing. But we just see Amy Adams and her research is old and she works at Northwestern, which. Good for her, I guess.
- [22:34]
Okechuku
Who knew it was that easy?
- [22:35]
Caroline
Yeah. And, yeah, I like, you know, it's such a cliche. First big song from the hero and the musical of the I Want More song. But I liked it.
- [22:48]
Okechuku
And I liked it. Yeah.
- [22:50]
Caroline
You know, Lindsay Lohan comes along but once in a generation, and we can't expect Cady Heron to be Lindsay Lohan every time.
- [23:00]
Okechuku
Now that I feel like, is a line that could be applied, like, that's a philosophy right there. Lindsay Lohan's come along but once in a generation. We can't all be Lindsay. I should get that. Like, Stitch. We can't all be Lindsay Lohan. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the opening. I feel like the opening number as a song was good. The performance for me, not so much. But that is partly because the other members of the cast were really strong singers, especially auli'I Cravalho, who played Janice. She's got an amazing voice.
- [23:29]
Caroline
Yeah. Beautiful. And. But also, I feel like to go back to a. Lindsay Lohan comes along but once in a generation, like, Lindsay Lohan had this, like, megawatt charisma that almost had to be. The volume of it had to be turned down for her to play someone like Katie Heron, who's like this homeschooled kid who's never been. But, like, it's the plaid shirt. As the plaid shirts. Exactly. And then she kind of more leans into, like, the hyper watt Lindsay Lohan charisma later in the film when she's, like, wearing push up bras and she's one of the Plastics. But, like, it. Actually, I really liked the performance of, like, she does seem genuinely out of touch and genuinely naive in a way that I didn't quite believe of Lindsay Lohan in the same way because it. Because she was so famous at that time. But I feel like, the Lindsay Lohan performance in this movie is coming from Renee Rapp, who just like.
- [24:20]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [24:21]
Caroline
Devours every scene.
- [24:23]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [24:23]
Caroline
It is crazy. I was quite unfamiliar with her before this.
- [24:27]
Okechuku
Me too.
- [24:28]
Caroline
Fuck me. That is crazy. How much presence that kid has. Like. Yeah, tell me more.
- [24:39]
Okechuku
I mean, it's true. Like, she is just like. I don't want to use the term star quality too much because I feel like it is this quite vague thing that doesn't often. It's one of those things that doesn't really mean anything a lot of the time. But she does have this incredible stage presence that she has this kind of magnetism, I feel like. I mean, a. She's a really good singer, so there's that. Which you just can't. There's no substitute for that, I think. But I think she also really understands the nature of the character. The fact that she's like a blown up version of this incredibly popular girl and she understands the comedy of it, but she also understands that really terrifying thing that somebody with that kind of power can do, which is this kind of like, this is a really weird reference, but I remember listening to this podcast where they talk about Princess Diana, of all people.
- [25:28]
Caroline
Okay.
- [25:29]
Okechuku
And they talked about how somebody who knew Princess Diana said that she has this. She had. She had this ability to look around a room and see the most vulnerable person in that room and go up to them and make them feel welcome and safe. And on the podcast, they mentioned the fact that that is something that, like, sociopaths could use to make somebody to, like, to predate upon somebody, to prey upon somebody. And Princess Anne used it in a really positive way. And that kind of reminds. I guess I was reminded of that when I was watching the film with Rene Rapp, because she knows what it is to be that kind of popular person where, like, you have the power to scan around the room and identify, like, the limping gazelle. And you can either, like, heal the leg or, like, have him for dessert, I don't know. But yeah, that was. She understands that the theatricality of that power, not just the power itself, but what it's being transformed into fulfillment.
- [26:21]
Caroline
Totally. It's so I gotta say, like, I love Rachel McAdams, but this version of Regina George was this whole new thing. Because I think that Rachel McAdams character was playing on like she is. She does it flawlessly, but she was playing on this trope that really we had seen a lot of particularly previous to that decade. It's almost like Mean Girls was sort of the last Proper teen movie in a way, in terms of, like, that it sort of, you know, extrapolated on this whole John Hughesy world of the. The jocks and the losers and all of this. And it was like she had. For that performance, she had put all of that in a blender. And then we got Rachel McAdams, and she was kind of the last mean girl, you know? Like, I think those sort of movies went away then after a while. But Renee Rapp's version, it feels like this completely new take on that character. Like, I think it would be quite boring to have another, like, vacuous seeming, but very sociopathic mean girl who's mean for being mean's sake. There's something. And I know that, like, Renee Rapp is a queer woman, but there's a certain masculinity and dominance to the way she plays that role. And, like, there's a butchness to her that is very exciting to be around. And, like, they. They kind of thread in more of that kind of sapphic undertones with her and Janice's, like, backstory, which I thought was way better handled in this version as well. And what made a lot more sense and felt more complicated and more hurtful the way that, like, teenage drama is, you know, and just, like, the way that I even have her in, like, black leather and big black boots, she's got this long blonde hair and this movie star face. You're like, oh, yeah, of course that girl would rule the school. Like, it's like, it takes so much more than to be hot and rich to run a school like this. And she's got it, you know?
- [28:14]
Okechuku
Yeah. I think that's a really astute thing to say. Yeah. Because obviously in the film, she isn't queer. And I wonder if that was something that maybe she negotiated or that they sort of just came to as part of her character. But you're right, there is a kind of a slightly masculine energy there, which I think she. She weaves really nicely into the whole of her character, and I think updates it. I feel like that feels entirely conceivable and believable. And perhaps that is something that teenagers today feel that they can express more because they have, I think, a larger vocabulary for kind of expression than I think we did at that time.
- [28:54]
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. And there's also a sense of, like, it's not like there is a thing about her kissing Janice in middle school or something, but there's also a sense that the relationship that she has with men is, like, stuff that she just uses to Upset the women in her life who she claims are obsessed with her, but in reality, she's obsessed with them. Like, she, like, you know, to quote sort of, you know, Greta Gerwig in Ladybird, it's like attention and love are the same thing. You know, that thing of, like, she is, like, all she does is think about how she can sort of plot to make these girls more dependent on her love and her affection. She's like the mistress Mama Morton of, like, that school. And, like, her relationships with, like, Aaron Samuels or whatever is very kind of like, she just. They're just pawns, you know, it's kind of exciting.
- [29:49]
Okechuku
Yeah. But also she does that thing. I think one of the things I like about the Regina of this film that I think I brought out more is she does that thing that you do really well with your female characters, which is that they, like, at the same time, they can be. Have full agency and, you know, want things like people do. But, like, people often forget that women and female characters do. But also, she's kind of just doing shit right, and she's just like, there's no larger plan. And sometimes she gets a bit lost and says the wrong thing and she makes mistakes. But also there's an agency there at the same time, which I think is a difficult balance to strike as any kind of writer or actor.
- [30:28]
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that, by the way. That's very nice. You're welcome. The subtle little compliment in the discussion of Mean Girls.
- [30:40]
Zelu
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- [31:21]
Caroline
How did you feel about the. About Karen and Gretchen?
- [31:28]
Okechuku
So Gretchen, played by B.B. wood. I really enjoyed her role. She. I know. I watched her in. I watched her. That sounds terrible. I saw Love Victor, which is like the spin off of Love Simon, this film about a kid who comes out as gay, and she was in that. And she was really great and playing a kind of a character of a similar age. I thought Gretchen was really good. I really liked her. I think that she's got this kind of fragility to her, but she's also like Fun and funny and sparky. And watching her, like, with. What's that guy called? That really skeezy, like, scuzzy guy, Jason, who, like, hits on girls in front of her.
- [32:12]
Caroline
There's a bit where it's like, oh, my God, he is not crotch sitting with her.
- [32:15]
Okechuku
And it was like, yes, I love that.
- [32:18]
Caroline
I loved that. Because there was. And also, it really put me in mind as well. Cause I think, as far as I'm aware, Tina Fey obviously wrote the script for the original movie, but I think she wrote the script for this too, right? Like, she punched up her own script. And I did wonder, because I know that when she originally wrote Mean Girls, she had very two very young daughters who would have been sort of three and five. And now she has teenagers. She's older teenagers. So she has gone through the cycle of actually parenting people. And there's something about crotch sit. Felt like I was like, oh, I. I feel like somebody has said that in her house, you know, that he was crotch sitting with her.
- [32:58]
Okechuku
Yes. Yeah. It's the kind of thing you can imagine, like, hearing in your head, just, like, whipping around and being like, is that a thing? But I think that is also just how, like, young people, not even just teenagers, but, like, young people talk. Like, people just invent words. And some slang is, like, shared and across the Internet. And we all know what such and such a word means, if you've seen these tweets. But also, that is just how people talk. We just make stuff up of the moment, and that becomes a thing for the people who've heard it.
- [33:24]
Caroline
I mean, and that's always been one of the famous things about Mean girls is that. And that's why the kind of. We've all heard the phrase, stop trying to make fetch happen so many times that it is like, the words don't even, like, make sense anymore. Like, we've forgotten why. But the reason why that is quite genius is because it does speak to something very specific about what teenagers do. And like, how, you know, little groups of friends have their own slang. And there's always somebody who'd kind of like to be responsible for slang, and that is never the person who's responsible for the slang, you know, And I heard that.
- [34:02]
Okechuku
I was watching an interview with Tina Fey where she said that she made up the word fetch because they knew that it was. That any slang that they came up with for that film would be out of date by the time the film actually came out in cinema. So they just made something up. And it is smart because Obviously, it's kind of ageless.
- [34:18]
Caroline
Yeah. It's never happened. It will never happen. And we will be around forever. I love it. Yeah. Like, did you have any slang in your school that, like, when you bring it to other people, they're like, excuse me.
- [34:35]
Okechuku
You'Re talking like. I don't know, Caroline. We're talking like, five years ago. I don't know. I wasn't cool in school. I'm not cool now. But I definitely wasn't cool in school. So I probably. I don't know. I can't think off the top of my head. I can't think of anything. Did you?
- [34:52]
Caroline
Well, there's definitely some Irish. There's Irish stuff that has not translated and that I like. For example, shifting was a big thing where I'm from. So, like, kissing some, like, it's so crazy to me about how rarely we use the phrase kissing when we were kids because, like, it's all we cared about and yet we could never look it directly in the eye. So shifting was like a big thing of, like, if you shifted somebody. Yeah, that's the main one that comes back to me now.
- [35:23]
Okechuku
So shifting was like normal kissing or, like, enthusiastic kissing or just like.
- [35:28]
Caroline
Oh, very, very interesting. Yeah, maybe it is. Maybe this is like a 50 words for snow kind of thing. When you, like, are so obsessed with it, you have to have more words for it. I think shifting is very much like. Yeah, you're really going for it. Like, those two. Like, it wasn't that those two had a casual frizz on. It's like they were going for it at the back of the disco and there was tongue and we could all see glimpses of it.
- [35:53]
Okechuku
Okay.
- [35:53]
Caroline
Yeah. So, yeah, so there you go.
- [36:01]
Okechuku
It's just the way you're looking towards the upper right corner of the screen with a kind of a fun smile on your face as you recollect that. It's just. I know.
- [36:09]
Caroline
I just, like, wondered if you go back to a time where, like, none of my friends were talking about fertility and whether or not they were gonna have a baby, and all of them were talking about the different kinds of kissing they were gonna do. I miss. I miss. I genuinely miss. Ok, what was the next good bit? Go on.
- [36:31]
Okechuku
So I. So, yeah, the Meet the Plastic song with Regina George. Really good. Although another bit of. Have you seen the Sage musical? Because I haven't seen it.
- [36:42]
Caroline
No, I haven't.
- [36:44]
Okechuku
So I haven't seen it. But again, when I talked to my students about this film, can't remember how it came Up. But they said apparently that the film had been. They changed the songs from the film. They said, they said that the film had. And I'm not even entirely sure what this means, but they said that the film had Olivia Rodriguez to the musical.
- [37:05]
Caroline
What does that mean?
- [37:07]
Okechuku
No, Olivia Rodrigo de from the musical. And I don't know what that means. I think it means that they like, they updated the music and like made it more like poppy or snappy. I don't know. But whatever they did, I quite like it.
- [37:22]
Caroline
Oh, I think I know what that means. This is so funny because we were just talking about teen slang and how it's so specific and now you've got some teen slang for me that we're trying to decode as elders. But I think what I. I enjoy Olivia Rodrigo as a, as a concept and same.
- [37:40]
Okechuku
Even though I got her name.
- [37:41]
Caroline
Yeah. Like I've listened to what. I think she only has the one album, but I've listened to one of them. But there's a sense of Olivia Rodrigo that has like. And I think it's why I like it. It sort of reminds me of the Josie and the Pussycat soundtrack. It has this kind of this sort of like turn of the century guitar pop rock thing that was never totally popular over here but always existed in American movies. Like I'm thinking the end of 10 Things I Hate about you or.
- [38:09]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [38:10]
Caroline
Or Empire Records. It's like the sort of like scat infused bubblegum girl pop. It was kind of Gwen Stefani, but it was not quite Gwen Stefani. And that movement never got realized in anything real because like it just didn't travel over here and we didn't have that much choice. And now Olivia Reed Rigo seems like a realization of that dream.
- [38:29]
Okechuku
Yeah. Yeah.
- [38:31]
Caroline
So I like the songs, I like the songs and I like the kind of the Josie and the Pussycat ness of them and the. I love seeing a 14 year old in like a beanie hat, like really slamming on an electric guitar and it's fake, you know?
- [38:44]
Okechuku
Yeah, it's cute.
- [38:46]
Caroline
And.
- [38:48]
Okechuku
But then for me the, like the next really good bit was the party.
- [38:54]
Caroline
Yes.
- [38:55]
Okechuku
The where.
- [38:57]
Caroline
Oh, sexy Halloween.
- [38:59]
Okechuku
Yes.
- [39:00]
Caroline
So good. Karen's song.
- [39:02]
Okechuku
Sexy song.
- [39:02]
Caroline
Yes.
- [39:03]
Okechuku
Oh, such a good song. And she's such a good singer. Like the range, the power in her voice, I thought she did really, really well. But yeah, I really liked that. And that a fond memory that that reminded me of actually is I genuinely cannot be asked to like dress up for Halloween parties. And I don't know why because whenever I do. I have a really nice time, but I just can't be asked to do it. But the one time I can remember doing it was when I went to a friend's, like, Halloween 30th party and I dressed up as Karen from Mean Girls and I was wearing, like, the bunny. It was such a lazy costume. I was wearing bunny ears and I think, like some cut off bike shorts and a T shirt that said I'm a mouse, comma, duh.
- [39:48]
Caroline
Well, you had bunny ears and you were a mouse.
- [39:52]
Okechuku
Yeah, I made it work.
- [39:53]
Caroline
Okay.
- [39:55]
Okechuku
I made it work. I'll show you a picture sometimes.
- [39:57]
Caroline
Okay.
- [39:59]
Okechuku
And. Yeah. And because it was a room full of gays, everyone just got it. It was fantastic.
- [40:03]
Caroline
Oh, great. That does. Yeah.
- [40:05]
Okechuku
But. But enough about me.
- [40:08]
Caroline
No, I love it. This is a mental image. I'll keep. I'll keep all Christmas long. You in bunny ears with a T shirt that says I'm a mouse. Duh.
- [40:20]
Okechuku
It was part of my character.
- [40:22]
Caroline
It was very Karen of you. It was very Karen. Yeah. But that song, I think is. It feels like. And it's got that thing that, like, you know, Kristin Chenoweth doing popular of like, the voice is technically great, but you. And I mean, it's the thing that musical theater actors do, and I can't understand how they do it, how they can deliver comedy and vocals at the same time.
- [40:43]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [40:44]
Caroline
And it's in character and like, that to me is like. It's like. It's three jobs and it's amazing. Anyone can do it.
- [40:50]
Okechuku
Yeah, that's the thing. It's crazy. They're doing so many different things because just singing alone, singing a song like that by itself is really difficult. But you're right, she delivered it really well in character and it felt fun. And also just like updating of some of the jokes as well. Like the sex cancer joke.
- [41:07]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [41:09]
Okechuku
And the stuff that they'd updated from the original film. Because I think in the original there was a joke about, like, Karen being attracted to her cousin, and that was Karen's like, dumb moment and gone. And then they kind of integrated the dumb stuff into the song. And that was really funny.
- [41:23]
Caroline
But I feel like the cousin stuff, it isn't even like. I mean, I don't think they would have even cut that for, you know, quote unquote problematicness. It's just like.
- [41:32]
Okechuku
No, I don't think so.
- [41:32]
Caroline
It's quite a boring joke. I mean, it's like, it's quite an obvious joke. You know, it's like, that's a You know, it's. It's sort of in the culture now. I like the way they sort of pepped it up in places and like that. That sort of monologue in the original movie, that thing of, like, it's. You know, it's 10 seconds, it's like, oh, in girl worlds, blah, blah. You know, you have to dress up like a slut, and no one can say anything. And that's like, you know, it's quite like, an obvious observation, but it's coming from Katie, who doesn't know about other teenagers. So it's like an anthropological thing. But, like, the way they stretch that out into the song of, like, I give you sexy corn. And there's this girl dressed as corn who just vomits on top of herself. And all the costumes are incredible. And Karen's like, she's a cow. And there's. And she's like, sexy Joan of Arc, and it's just so funny. And then there's this moment right in the middle where it's like, I'll be a sexy doctor and cure a sexy cancer. And then she's like, no, I'll something. I'll something. I'll sex up cancer. No, I'll cure sex cancer. And then Karen's Gretchen says, that's not a thing. And then Karen says, yay, I did it. You know, it's just so. It's so good. I loved it. And it feels like the best of SNL songs as well, you know?
- [42:49]
Okechuku
Yes. Yeah. That is a really good observation, I think. Yeah, it feels like. It feels like a warm, generous mixtape of something, but also trying to make a point. Yeah.
- [43:01]
Caroline
Yeah. And there's more as well. Of, like, oh, for feminism, you have to dress like a slut, because if you don't, then it'll make the other girls feel bad. And that's, like, Karen's feminism. I loved it.
- [43:18]
Okechuku
Yeah, it was really good, wasn't it?
- [43:20]
Caroline
Yeah, I think it might be one of the best. More hearts of the movie, honestly.
- [43:23]
Okechuku
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I think it's one of my favorite songs, for sure. And then the whole thing with Regina and Aaron getting back together, I thought that was really. I thought that was also really nicely handled as well. Like, something I wanted to say earlier that I forgot when you were talking about Regina's backstory with Janis in this update of the musical was that. Absolutely. It makes sense as a storyline. You know, the way that Regina, like, did some. What was it? She, like, kissed her at a party and, like, did it to get attention from a boy. And then said something horrible about Janis, and it is awful. But there's something about that that is also really silly. That is so childish. Right. As well as being, like, homophobic and mean and all of those things. But it's also just, like, really silly in the way that feels completely appropriate for people that age. And the same is true of the way that Regina got back with Aaron at the party. It's like. And I'm kind of glad that they kept that. That they kept that part of the storyline, because it's like, the whole thing is just dumb. Like, they're just stuffed full of hormones and, like, shifting whoever they're shifting. And, like, no, it wouldn't make sense for, like, Aaron to get back with Regina if he was, like, thinking with his head. Right. But he just does because he's a teenager and they're at a party and they're probably quite drunk or whatever. But that I quite liked. It was just, like. It was a silly thing that happens sometimes.
- [44:55]
Caroline
Yeah, yeah. And the sort of. The musical number that happens around that is great as well. And then, like, the thing of Regina going over and being like, oh, she's, you know, she likes you. She's like a loser. She's so inexperienced, and she kind of noticed that he's interested, and then she just starts crying. That thing of life that's every teen. Girls, like, break glass in case of emergency.
- [45:16]
Mark
Just like.
- [45:21]
Caroline
What did you think of. Is it Busy Phillips? Who's the Amy Poehler character?
- [45:29]
Okechuku
Yeah. God, I haven't. So I didn't watch Girls 5 ever. So I think the last thing I've seen Busy Phillips in was, like, Dawson's Creek.
- [45:36]
Caroline
Oh, my God. Wow. You have missed a whole act of her life.
- [45:41]
Okechuku
Yeah, well, what have I. Tell me, what have I missed?
- [45:43]
Caroline
Well, this. Yeah, I mean, honestly, like, yeah, I love Girls five ever. And. And yeah, it's the. This is. This is the. This is who she is. Like, this is the kind of like.
- [45:58]
Okechuku
Okay, I'm caught up.
- [45:59]
Caroline
Okay. Yeah, vacuous. Seems like they could be mean, but actually are. Is just sort of, you know, trying. What's the line in the. In Mean Girls. It's like, I'm cool mom with six O's aging. Yes. Aging hotly. And she's got. So she's got even better lines in it. Like, obviously, nobody can replace Amy Poehler. She's incredible. But, like, she's got more screen time, I feel, in this movie because she. She solves more plot problems, like, rather than just being kind of an ensemble Figure of like. Oh, what did she say? It's like, beauty is. Isn't about your body, it's about your face. And she says to Katie, she's like, it's been a long time since we got some fresh meat in this lady taco. I was like this.
- [46:47]
Okechuku
Oh, my God. That line I think I had to repeat. I think I had to rewind and play that again to make sure I'd heard what I thought I heard.
- [46:54]
Caroline
Like, sorry if I had a stroke. It just goes down real easy, this movie, man. It's so. And then you have moments like that where you spit it out. You're like, whoa.
- [47:08]
Okechuku
Yes. I was like. I was with Regina at that point where she was like, mum, shut up and go away. I was like, yeah, please do. But, yeah, I thought. Busy Phillips. You're right. She's really good at playing that kind of role. At the slightly chaotic. Fun loving.
- [47:25]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [47:27]
Okechuku
Probably kind of drunk or high on something. California.
- [47:32]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [47:32]
Okechuku
Fun time girl. Like, I like her.
- [47:35]
Caroline
I love it. And I always love seeing Regina's room. I like how they sort of kept that scene, basically. They. That's what you say. They knew what worked from the original movie and what they didn't need to sort of change. The burn book always triggers me because it always reminds me of the girls in mice class who started keeping a burn book because of this movie, which I think is quite. I think, happened internationally, I believe. I think there were lots of girls who. Who got. Took the wrong lessons from being girls and so.
- [48:05]
Okechuku
No. Oh, my God. I didn't realize. Oh, my God. Really?
- [48:09]
Caroline
Girls schools, man. They were. It was an animal house.
- [48:12]
Okechuku
And were you in the. Were you in the Bernberg?
- [48:15]
Caroline
I don't believe I was. Which was more insulting. I think it was actually. I think it was actually more a set of. You know. And they called them. No, no. This is actually hilarious. They weren't going to be so obvious as to call themselves the Plastics, but they called themselves the Pops.
- [48:33]
Okechuku
What? What is that? What is that?
- [48:35]
Caroline
I don't know. It didn't stand for anything. They just kind of wanted. They loved the idea of being, like, a controlling, mean clique. I get it. We were 14, you know, it's fine. But I'm sure they're all happy wives now. But the end. But, yeah, I'm sure. I don't know why I'm a happy wife. I don't know. But they had a burn book, but it was mostly about, like, their own. Themselves sort of thing. They were mostly using it for their own. In in group fighting. So I didn't feature, but I did hear about it, and I did think it was dumb. So I'm on the right side of history once again. That's me.
- [49:23]
Okechuku
Yeah. So Revenge Party. For anybody who hasn't seen it or maybe it's forgotten. Revenge Party is a song that comes after Cady leaves the party when Aaron has got back with Regina, and she goes back to Janice's house, where she's watching a film with Damian, and she tells them what's happened, and they, like, swear revenge on Regina and they're going to mess up her life and give her lard as face cream and give her these, like, calcium bars that make her put on weight. And they add loads of stuff, which is one of the nicest things I think about this film of the musical, which is that they take advantage of the fact that they've just got bigger scope in a film than you do on stage. And so they add, like, they turn the sprinklers on on the football field when Regina is, like, in the middle of the field.
- [50:09]
Caroline
Yes.
- [50:09]
Okechuku
And they try to sabotage her, but then she looks. But then she just, like, works the wet look.
- [50:14]
Caroline
Yeah, yeah.
- [50:15]
Okechuku
Then everybody copies her, and they just, like, stretch it out and properly, like, fill it with lots of fun stuff like that. It's really good. It's a great song. So catchy, too.
- [50:24]
Caroline
It's so good. And I love the way it's referred to later on in the film when they're doing their kind of healing circle where someone says, I'm sorry that I accused you of dragging. During Revenge Party, we had to deliver a lot of plot in a very short amount of time, and it was a lot of pressure. I just. I love those tiny meta moments. I thought it was so great.
- [50:43]
Okechuku
Same. That was really clever. I thought that was fun. And the fact that they didn't over egg it as well. You're absolutely right. Yeah, that was cute. It was a great song.
- [50:50]
Caroline
Yeah, it's great. And the production of it is great. It just feels like a great. A great big number, you know? It doesn't feel like a dinky little. Here's. Here's us doing an Olivia Rodrigo song. It's like, oh, it's a number, you know?
- [51:04]
Okechuku
Yes. And also it gets the rage that I think that teenagers, especially in that kind of situation, feel like it's like we're gonna chop her up in little bits and. And throw her in the river and, like, entrails all over the lawn. I have listened to this song many times. It's on my Spotify playlist now. But, yeah, it gets that kind of the outsizedness of teen rage. I think that's one of the best things about the song.
- [51:30]
Caroline
I just loved it. And the sort of imagine a party with your friends and cake, and then like, we. And then we kill Regina and cake. But I wanted to go back to a minute to go very specifically into this Halloween night when Damien reveals the. The backstory thing. Because it just felt. I know we kind of glossed over it a second ago, but the thing was, is they're like, they're in middle school and everybody is collecting these kind of beanie baby things.
- [51:57]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [51:57]
Caroline
And Janice comes out to Regina by putting a rainbow badge on her toy and giving it to Regina. And then later on, they spin the bottle so they. They. Then they had do this big kiss at the party. And it's. It's like, again, very hits on something very Teenage girls, that age of showing off for boys by doing the lesbian displays. And then, you know, the next day she has. She stops being her friend, but she keeps this toy. And she calls it. I wrote it down. I found it so upsetting. This part. Sissy Liz.
- [52:36]
Okechuku
Oh, God. Yeah.
- [52:38]
Caroline
And it's that thing that everybody has to say hi to Sissy Liz every morning. And you can so see that. Like, like, it's a bit like. Like, I. I once, like, taught this creative writing seminar for. For kids who are away for two weeks. Just like, it was like a camp kind of thing. And I was the head teacher of the camp. Where's My Musical? And I remember there was this girl, Alika, who had, like, a bear that everybody had to say hi to every morning. And that was like a thing. It was like her thing. And she, like, took it with her everywhere. And she was so powerful, this girl. And, like, and she was so gorgeous, but she was really quirky and she's kind of her own thing going on, and she, like, had her own stuff. And everyone had to, like, say, okay, you know, we all have to pretend like Alica's bear is real. You know, it's like, wow. Yeah. And, like, it just really put me in mind of that. Like, she, like, she was lovely and she was not Regina George. But the idea when you're a girl, when. At an age when most girls are, like, hiding their. Their toys or their bears or whatever under the bed and pretending like they never had them, those really strong, confident girls who are like, I'm going to make this my sort of evil in war personality for. For a.
- [53:46]
Okechuku
That's power. That's known that you can break the rules.
- [53:49]
Caroline
Yes. And breaking such a kind of an unspoken, subtle rule of, like, we're all pretending to be miniature adults, but I'm actually taking this thing from childhood and making everyone interact with it. I think it's such fucking good writing. It's so real. And then, anyway, so she makes everyone say hi to Izzy Les. Or no, Izzy Liz. Whatever. Sissy Liz. And then it's revealed later on, and obviously this was Janice's toy originally. And it's a real. That she. That she. She's called Sissy Liz because Janice is an obsessed lesbian. And that's when Janice burns the toy and also the backpack. And I just thought I was like, oh, I believe every part of that story. I like. It was so cannily observed.
- [54:34]
Okechuku
Yes, exactly. Because like I said, this thing, that spiral. It's a silly thing.
- [54:39]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [54:39]
Okechuku
That becomes quite. That is quite cruel and spirals completely out of control. It is entirely believable.
- [54:47]
Caroline
Yeah, I. Yeah, I felt the pain of that quite sharply in a way that I never felt the pain of anything in the original Mean Girls movie. Maybe I like this one better.
- [55:01]
Okechuku
I can see why. I think. Oh, I think in a lot of ways, I like this one better. I think it's certainly. I think the story writing is better, and I think it understands, like, human behavior better. And I think this is one of those times. Right. I think that it gets why I say this in inverted commas, like why disasters happen.
- [55:22]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [55:23]
Okechuku
Like, the big stuff that makes a good teen movie. Like, it gets why that would happen in real life. And I think it makes it a bit darker, but also more legible.
- [55:31]
Caroline
Yeah, yeah, way more legible. And like, it's. Again, to go back to the thing of people saying that. That the movie was, like, sanitized. The musical was a sanitized version of the original movie. In some ways, I think it's more painful and sharper than the original movie.
- [55:45]
Okechuku
For sure. For sure. Yeah, absolutely.
- [55:48]
Caroline
Just because they're not outrightly using slurs doesn't mean that they're like, you know, the. The. The emotional realities. Sorry, I spoke over you there. Please finish.
- [55:59]
Okechuku
No, not at all. But, yeah, it kind of makes me think of the way not to, like, skip to the end, but. Because we've. There's loads of stuff we haven't covered. But, like, the way that the. Well, really the way that both films end. Because I feel like in the first film, in fact, I distinctly remember a friend of mine at the time talking about how much he liked mean girls, but only liked the first half of it because the second half, where they tried to be nice people, is kind of boring. And, you know, when, like, Regina, you know, they will, like, learn how to, like, channel their rage into sports. They end up like. Right. Yes. And, like, what? Wasn't it. Wasn't it, like Gretchen who makes, like, friends with the East Asian girls and.
- [56:45]
Caroline
Oh, yeah.
- [56:46]
Okechuku
And like, suddenly joins this different clique, stays the same person, but, like, in Vietnamese, I guess, and. Which is. And yeah. Whereas this film, I feel, like, processed that better.
- [57:01]
Caroline
Yeah, yeah, you're right. We actually didn't need that wrap up that much, actually. It's just kind of better to have of them all just dancing at their prom and then breaking into the Renee Rapp Megan Thee Stallion song of It's Not My Fault, which even though.
- [57:16]
Okechuku
Which is a bop.
- [57:17]
Caroline
It's a fucking bop. It's been on my, like, gym treadmill playlist for a very long time. Right. Like, even before I watched this movie. It is a bop. It's not my fault.
- [57:28]
Okechuku
It's a bop. It's not my fault either. But I also enjoyed Megan's, like, little cameos as well, because she does those, like, TikTok cameos from time to time, doesn't she? Where she's like, oh, my God, I can't believe Katie did this. And then later on in the film, she's like, how do I get this off? My algorithm?
- [57:44]
Caroline
Is that Megan that completely passed me by. That's. How do I get this off? My algorithm is so good. Again, all that phone stuff is just really well observed. And like, I did. To go back, we skipped over this earlier on, but the. The sort of Jingle Bell Rock or whatever it's called in this version.
- [58:05]
Okechuku
They changed the song, didn't they?
- [58:06]
Caroline
Yeah. Which feels like a licensing thing. The. The Jingle Jingle pole or something. But it's a really brilliant. Actually, it. It collapses a few beats of the story really efficiently, which is that they. Regina has gained weight because of the caltine bars. And she's sort of also going crazy because of several other things that Katie is suddenly doing. And she's off. And she's kind of being mean to everybody, but, like, not. Not in a charming way like she normally is. People, her friends, are turning against her. Gretchen wants to practice the number. Regina doesn't want to practice. And they drop Regina kind of implicitly because maybe she's gained weight and they're not used to. They say something about the center of gravity is different. And then she sort of eats shit in front of everybody, and everybody records it, and that's kind of her downfall, which is, again, it feels like, if I think about the original movie, that's drawn out for a much longer period of time, and this is so far, Snappier.
- [59:05]
Okechuku
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I feel like intertwined with that in the original was Cady's transformation into, like, a plastic. Like, a complete plastic. Whereas in the film, in the most recent version of the film, it's a much more kind of snappy, like, oh, now she just stares at herself all the time, and she's constantly doing her makeup while people are trying to tell her important stuff. Stuff. So it was quite efficient.
- [59:32]
Caroline
Importantly, her Elf makeup.
- [59:35]
Okechuku
Elf makeup?
- [59:36]
Caroline
Yeah. Yeah. No. So I don't know what. Elf is a makeup brand that, for some reason, they have more money than God for advertising. And every time the girls are. The product placement for Elf in this movie is. I mean, it's effective. I'm going to Superdrug. But it's like, oh, my God, I.
- [59:51]
Okechuku
Didn'T even catch that.
- [59:51]
Caroline
Damien says to her at one point, what's that lipstick color you're wearing? And she says, oh, it's. It's Elf, something, something. And he goes, good. Your ears do work. Like, it's. You know, it's actually very clever. Yeah, I think. I think Sex and City taught us this. That product placement works best if you're being a little bit shitty about what you're talking about. Like, the way. The way, like, Miranda's TiVo breaks, you know?
- [60:16]
Okechuku
Yes, yes. Or the way that Charlotte got on that horrible Amazon algorithm that sent her, like, loads of divorcee books.
- [60:22]
Caroline
Yes.
- [60:23]
Okechuku
I always wondered how they got away with that.
- [60:25]
Caroline
Or the way that Carrie, she's always going to Starbucks is last resort. Like, she's always like, if you need me, I'll be in Starbucks.
- [60:34]
Okechuku
Oh, you should do a podcast about Sex and City, Caroline.
- [60:38]
Caroline
I literally thought you were about to say you should do a podcast about product placement, and I actually think it's a really good idea. I think there's a. It's a fascinating area of study, I think.
- [60:50]
Okechuku
I mean, I would listen to that. Well, so.
- [60:53]
Caroline
I hope so. Yeah. Everyone, please, please vote for your product placement of choice on my Apple AirPods. We're both wearing Apple AirPods today. Ding. Okay, I know that you have a time constraint I'm trying very hard to respect, but is there anything left in this movie that if you didn't talk about, you would kill yourself?
- [61:18]
Okechuku
Oh, there was a really great line In. There's a song called Stupid with Love that Kady sings when she realizes that she has a squash on Aaron. And there's a brilliant. I'm not, like, crazy about the song in general, but there's a really brilliant line where she says, I am filled with calculust.
- [61:34]
Caroline
Which.
- [61:36]
Okechuku
Undefeated. Undefeated. Top of the leaderboard. Great line.
- [61:42]
Caroline
Lovely stuff.
- [61:43]
Okechuku
So good.
- [61:43]
Caroline
I also love how they replicate the Tina Fey sort of her talking to the girl scene, but now she's married to the principal.
- [61:54]
Okechuku
Yeah. I love that little wink to the audience. Yeah, that's cute.
- [61:58]
Caroline
Ms. Norbury. It's. And they like. Yeah, I. I don't know. It really, like, really filled my heart, like. Oh, the passage of time, like, Because. Right. Was it at the end of the original Mean Girls, they were going to go on a date and now they're just married in this endless time loop where they're talking, teaching the same. The same children every year.
- [62:20]
Okechuku
Yeah, exactly. It felt like a really nice development of that. And the principal is kind of jacked, right?
- [62:26]
Caroline
Yeah, he's had some. He's been working on himself. Oh, also, Jon Hamm as the fucking gym teacher is obsessed with sex.
- [62:38]
Okechuku
Yes. And he can't spell hormones.
- [62:40]
Caroline
Yeah.
- [62:43]
Okechuku
And what did you think of Lindsay Lohan's appearance at the Mathletes contest towards the end?
- [62:48]
Caroline
Yeah, completely fine. Sure.
- [62:53]
Okechuku
Beautiful gowns.
- [62:54]
Caroline
Beautiful gowns. I mean, it wasn't like. It wasn't a slay queen. Yes, Mama moment, was it? It was just like her. It was like, oh, good. Good to see you, Lindsay. Like, nice.
- [63:04]
Okechuku
Did it not warm the cockles of your heart to see her back on screen again?
- [63:08]
Caroline
No, because I can see that in Irish Wish, you know.
- [63:11]
Okechuku
Wait, is that the Christmas film that she's in this year?
- [63:13]
Caroline
No, this was a Christmas. This was the film that she released for Paddy's Day. And the only reason I have seen it is because I had to. I did a Netflix video of, like, Irish people watch Irish Wish, where they pay you money to slam the movie they made. And. Yeah, so I've seen. I've been keeping up with Lindsay. Don't worry. But, yeah, I mean, she read out the questions of the math. You know, whose role was slightly more fleshed out in this version. And I loved it. Kevin G. Yes. I like how they made the effort this time to be like, Kevin G is a good rapper. It's just. He's too. He works blue and the school won't allow it, you know, it's.
- [63:54]
Okechuku
Yeah. And he has a. And he has a business and he still has his business cards, which I thought was cute.
- [63:59]
Caroline
I loved him. He was like, yeah, I loved him in the original. I love him even more now. More for Kevin G. And I.
- [64:07]
Okechuku
Yes. And I feel like I might be wrong here, but I feel like both the actors who played Aaron in the original and Kevin G. In the original have both come out as gay since.
- [64:17]
Caroline
I think they have. Yes, I've got that right.
- [64:20]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [64:20]
Caroline
I believe the actor who played Aaron was even a judge on Drag Race, which is a sort of a coronation moment of gay culture, in a way.
- [64:28]
Okechuku
Yes. Now you're gay. You thought you were gay before. No, no, no.
- [64:33]
Caroline
Now you're publicly gay.
- [64:34]
Okechuku
Now you're gay. Yes. Now you may gay.
- [64:40]
Caroline
I mean, we have Janice's final song, which does feel like a Disney show song, but I really enjoyed it.
- [64:47]
Okechuku
I wondered what you thought about that. What did you enjoy about it? Tell me. Okay, so I thought it was good too.
- [64:52]
Caroline
It is very sort of pure of heart, trying. It's like how, how a Disney song tries to be edgy of, like, oh, I'm putting my middle finger up to all of you. But it still worked on me because her voice is so good and because there's so much energy in the performance and there's something that she says about, like, how she's not gonna pretend like, she's never gonna be a bitch ever again, but she's going to. Like, can we, I think the lesson is kind of like, can't we just sort of, like, fight and make up and not have this simmering, infuriating, like, passive aggressive tension that's running between us all the time?
- [65:28]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [65:28]
Caroline
And like, I, yeah, I, I, I, I resisted it at first, but her charisma won me over. It won me over.
- [65:35]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [65:35]
Caroline
What about you?
- [65:36]
Okechuku
Yeah, I like that song a lot, and I think that it does, it does make sense. Like, I remember, like, when I was teaching kids, it's teenagers at school, like, and, like, they were having fights amongst each other and stuff. And you'd have to kind of help, like, coach them to not, like, let it blow up out of hand. You kind of just say, look, I don't like everyone that I work with either, but you just have to find a way to manage that. And if that means being upfront about, like, certain things, then sometimes that's okay, but you don't. There's some things that you do and some things that you can't do. And I like how that song at least attempted to, like, find a way through that. I liked it. And it's just a great song. Song. It was kind of catchy.
- [66:15]
Caroline
Yeah. Because it's almost. It's too. It's too optimistic to hope that these girls are just never gonna dislike each other ever again. And it's kind of a nice way to offset the sort of trust fall of it all. And yeah, yeah, I think Mean Girls the musical is a great musical.
- [66:32]
Okechuku
Yeah.
- [66:33]
Caroline
Or rather do. I don't know if. Okay. Asterisks. I don't know if I think it's a great musical in the tradition of like, I don't know, singing in the rain or Chicago or whatever, you know, in that sen sense. But I think it is a worthy and great update to the sort of Mean Girls universe. And like we needed it. And it makes me appreciate the original more because it kind of reminds me of why those jokes were funny to begin with. Like, yeah, yeah, I'll watch it anytime.
- [67:02]
Okechuku
Exactly. I think that's a good. I think that's a good summary of it and I think that's why it feels like a good Christmas film. Even though it's not a Christmas film, it's a kind of film that you'd watch at Christmas. This is a kind of a homecoming to it. Right. That feels you're so much more palatable than a lot of homecomings.
- [67:21]
Caroline
Absolutely. Like, totally. And yeah, I think there is a. There's a pressure like, oh, you know, Christmas. We have to all watch, you know, the Sound of Music or whatever and we do have to watch the Sound of Music. But there's also a sense of like, you know, I'm in a house, my extended family, my nephew and niece and everything. They're of this age now. This is what they like. And you have to, to sort of reach across the crevasse of years and let them share their thing with you. And I'm so happy to have this, you know, shared with me because my niece loves this movie and I'm like really excited to watch it with her this Christmas and.
- [67:53]
Okechuku
Oh yeah. How old is she?
- [67:55]
Caroline
She is 13. She'll be 13 the start next year.
- [67:59]
Okechuku
No way. That's so young. And she understands and she. Wow, that's. Well, they're marketing. Just to circle back to the marketing point at first, obviously the marketing has done something right then if they've got.
- [68:10]
Caroline
Yes. Because I guess the thing is we were, you know, me being upset that the marketing didn't Capture me, a 34 year old wife and mortgage purveyor, owner or whatever when, you know, Mean Girls was always meant for young people, because it's about young people and, like, older people being cranky at their classic is being messed with is just stupid and lame and we should all get over ourselves.
- [68:33]
Okechuku
Yeah. Yeah.
- [68:35]
Caroline
Hooray.
- [68:36]
Okechuku
And on that note, on that note.
- [68:37]
Caroline
I know you have a meeting that you have to get to, but do you want to quickly tell us about your books?
- [68:40]
Okechuku
Yes. Yes. Thank you so much. So I've published two books. The first one, which is called the Private Joys of Nana Maloney, is a bit lighter in turn. It's about a girl who is about the age of the characters and mean girls, actually, who is half Nigerian and, like, learning about her heritage and dealing with her relationship with her single mother. And my second book, which is not, like, unredeemably sad, but it's, like the euphoric sad song of my oeuvre. It's called Here Again now, which is about, like, grief and love and queerness and blackness and life and. Yeah. Both available wherever books are sold.
- [69:18]
Caroline
Okay, thank you so much. Okay. This has been wonderful.
- [69:21]
Okechuku
Thank you so much. And I know I've already gushed about the Rachel incident via dm, but I just want to do it again now because it was so, so good.
- [69:27]
Caroline
It was brilliant.
- [69:28]
Okechuku
I love, love, loved it. So, yeah, that's just what I wanted to say.
- [69:32]
Caroline
Thank you. I always love talking to you, especially when there's praise involved for me. I'll speak to you soon.
- [69:40]
Okechuku
Okay, thank you so much, Caroline. I'll speak to you soon.
- [69:43]
Caroline
Bye. Foreign.
- [70:02]
Mark
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