Nepo babies with Benjamin Dean

Summary

Sentimental Garbage: "Nepo Babies" with Benjamin Dean

Host: Caroline O’Donoghue
Guest: Benjamin Dean
Date: September 25, 2025
Theme: The culture and controversies of nepo babies—children of the famous and privileged—and what their fame reveals about the entertainment business, social mobility, and our obsession with celebrity.

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Episode Overview

In this wide-ranging and witty episode, Caroline O’Donoghue and YA author Benjamin Dean dive into the "nepo baby" phenomenon. They reflect on the origins of the term, their own upbringings and careers, and the complications—both juicy and fraught—of privilege, access, and success in cultural industries. Using examples from contemporary pop culture (the Beckhams, Gracie Abrams, Dakota Johnson, Francesca Scorsese, and more), they ask: Why did nepo babies become such a hot topic? Should we feel bad for, envy, or ridicule them? What does the conversation say about the state of the working and creative classes, and about modern fame itself?

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Banter: Satirizing Nepotism and Privilege

• Both host and guest lampoon their own ‘nepo’ credentials, joking about being related to the Gruffalo’s creator and the creator of Lost (00:38–01:38).
• Caroline: “My father, the series creator of Lost, would not be too pleased to hear about this.”
• Benjamin: “The Gruffalo is absolutely my father.”

The Rise of the Nepo Baby Discourse

• Contextualizes the “nepo baby” boom as a post-2020/lockdown phenomenon, noting how Gen Z realized the world is unfair, especially in creative industries (05:20–08:59).
• Caroline: “Gen Z discovered that the world isn’t fair. Shock, horror, breaking news.” (05:20)
• Both share their own early-career struggles—unpaid internships, sleeping in hostels, and the impossibility of breaking into media without financial backing (06:19–07:44).

Benjamin’s New Novel & The Nepo Baby Murder Mystery

• Benjamin introduces his satirical YA thriller, Bury Your Friends—a “Nepo baby slasher”; begins with the epigraph: “Jesus was a Nepo baby too” (03:13–03:59).
• The epigraph was a deleted Instagram comment from Cruz Beckham:
  Benjamin: “He responded being like, Jesus is also a Nepo baby.” (04:10)
• Both find humor in the Cruz Beckham comment and discuss how this kind of logic frames nepo conversations: truth and absurdity intersect (04:16–04:49).

What Actually is a Nepo Baby?

• Dissects the difference between nepotism and privilege (10:34–11:06).
  • Nepotism = direct connections/access because of family
  • Privilege = having money and a safety net, but not necessarily a path directly smoothed by family networks
• Benjamin: “Having parents who are rich doesn’t necessarily equate to being a nepo baby...” (10:34)
• Both emphasize how difficult it is to even get a “foot in the door” without these layers.

Sympathy for Nepo Babies? The Online Backlash

• Discusses the rise of public derision for young women in high-profile roles, especially when asked about their privilege (14:10–15:27).
• Caroline: “It is always she. Always fucking she.” (14:47)
• The host and guest debate empathy fatigue and the pitfalls of seeking pity or relatability as part of a celebrity’s brand (17:46–19:37).
• Caroline: “We are very resistant to anything that looks for our pity...pity is a finite resource and something inside of us thinks, this is for children and baby animals. Sorry.” (19:37)

Changing Nature of Fame & Celebrity

• Laments how celebrities now feel the need to appear relatable and vulnerable, rather than mysterious and fabulous (21:14–22:58).
• Misses the era of ‘removed’ celebrities like Mariah Carey and Beyoncé—“I miss that...celebrities feeling a million times removed from the average normal person.” (21:45, Benjamin)
• Discusses Hailey Bieber’s “nepo baby” t-shirt as a rare witty response, ruined by her subsequent over-explanation (24:06–24:59).

The Beckhams: A Nepo Baby Case Study

• Digs into the Beckham family: Brooklyn’s serial hobby-careers; the siblings’ modeling, singing, or quiet lives; the pressures of legacy and the rare challenges of surpassing such famous parents (29:56–35:50).
• Caroline: “He is the first celebrity birth I remember.” (31:43)
• Both joke about the professional ‘hobbyism’ of some nepo babies versus others who do little with massive opportunity (28:14–29:39).

Not All Nepos Are Created Equal

• Explores the nepo-baby “tiers” (top-tier: Dakota Johnson, Jack Quaid; industry kids: Kristen Stewart, Billie Eilish) and how proximity to industry, not just fame, creates opportunities (38:58–41:05).
• Benjamin: “I’m not surprised that the majority of child actors have a connection to the industry because when you’re that young...living near LA, with parents who work there, gives you access.” (39:51)

Against All Odds: Making It Without Privilege

• Celebrates the recent Emmy win for working-class British actor Owen Cooper as a “proof point” that the arts aren’t only for privileged people, but noting how much rarer these stories are now (41:44–44:14).
• Both observe that most current prestige entertainment is obsessed with wealth, trauma, or celebrity—creating a feedback loop of fascination and frustration (44:04–45:56).
• Caroline: “It’s sort of reverse escapism where we tell ourselves that rich people want to escape.” (44:14)

Why Are We So Obsessed? Envy, Resentment, and the Limits of Success

• Benjamin reflects on the pressure of writing or creating knowing there’s no financial or familial “cushion.” (55:21–56:12)
• Benjamin: “I wish I had the privilege of working on something and knowing that if it didn’t work, it’s okay...sometimes I feel like, if this doesn’t work, I could be out on my ass tomorrow...Whereas, like, when you have that nepotism or that privilege in an industry, you can afford to take a really big creative swing and miss completely.” (55:21–55:52)
• Posits that even for nepo babies, their achievements are always in question—privately if not publicly (61:09–61:18).

Wry Wisdom, Empathy, and Favorite Nepo Babies

• Conclude with a sense of “balanced, nuanced, and graceful” consideration; neither lionizing nor demonizing nepo babies, but finding the topic perpetually fascinating (57:31–68:20).
• Both share their favorite “nepos” (Angelica Huston, King Princess), highlighting those who have a sense of irony or humor about their origins (61:26–64:17).
• Benjamin: “To be a good Nepo baby, you have to have this dry humor and kind of like recognize that it is just a bit batshit.” (63:10)
• Speculate on the challenges for children of icons (Beckhams, Scorseses, Serena Williams’s daughter) to find their own paths (67:05–68:12).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Caroline (on nepo baby logic):
  “Jesus was a Nepo baby too.” (03:13)
  Originally an Instagram comment from Cruz Beckham, this becomes a running joke summarizing the absurdity and truth at the heart of the debate.

• Benjamin (on privilege vs. nepotism):
  "Having parents who are rich doesn’t necessarily equate to being a nepo baby, but it does equate to having the privilege of, like, I’ve got the money to fall back if I fail." (10:34)

• Caroline (on the popularity of nepo baby discourse):
  “The Nepo baby conversation is the symptom of a disease and not the disease itself.” (11:41)

• Benjamin (on inflated outrage towards nepo babies):
  "Part of me does feel very, like, sorry for [Gracie Abrams]...it doesn’t look like a fun life to live where you’re doing something...you're pretty successful at, but it almost seems to be a fun hobby for people to rip into her." (13:51)

• Caroline (on the changing nature of celebrity):
  “The reason we treasure why Cher tweets that way is because nobody is doing that. Nobody’s just, like, up in space anymore...now everyone has to be ground down to lie. People are afraid...the only safe territory for them to talk openly is their vulnerability. Because if it really happened to them, you can't criticize it.” (21:15)

• On rich celebrities trying to be relatable:
  “Sometimes I look at celebrities being super defensive about their own privilege, and I'm like, why do you so desperately want to be this relatable?” (17:54, Benjamin)

• On contemporary culture’s obsession with privilege:
  “We’re kind of obsessed with [wealth] and we've sort of written ourselves our own get out clause as a cultural society. If we're punishing the rich people, then it doesn't matter.” (44:14, Caroline)

• On the reality of having no safety net:
  “You always feel, especially when you come from...I'm black. I'm gay. My stories are often black and gay. And I'm like, you almost feel the pressure of, you have to prove that our stories matter...for them to want to keep publishing or highlighting our stories.” (56:12, Benjamin)

• Caroline (on what Nepo babies miss out on):
  “When you really know that you had no one fucking helping you and you had nothing and you get to see your name in a bookshop anyway—it feels fucking great. Dakota Johnson never gets to have that feeling.” (60:25–60:31)

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Important Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment/Event | |-----------------|----------------------------------------------------| | 00:38 | Satirical opening on "personal nepo status" | | 03:13–04:16 | "Jesus was a Nepo baby": Cruz Beckham quote, book talk | | 05:20–07:44 | Personal stories of career struggle, privilege | | 11:41 | Nepo babies as societal symptom, not disease | | 14:10–15:27 | The gendered nature of nepo baby backlash | | 21:14–22:58 | Yearning for old-school celebrity mystique | | 24:06–24:59 | Hailey Bieber's meta “nepo baby” T-shirt moment | | 29:56–35:50 | The Beckham children, pressure of legacy | | 38:58–41:05 | Discussing Nepo baby "tiers" and connections | | 41:44–45:56 | Owen Cooper; the rarity of working-class success | | 55:21–56:12 | Creative fear vs. nepo safety nets | | 60:25–61:18 | The difference in achievement fulfillment | | 61:26–64:17 | Choosing favorite Nepo babies, humor and irony | | 67:05–68:12 | The weight of expectation for star children |

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• The nepo baby debate is both entertaining and a reflection of societal pain points: access, fairness, class, and our changing relationship to fame.
• While it’s easy to be irritated by the ease with which some people (often women) rise in creative industries, the “nepo baby” headline hides larger issues: shrinking opportunities for all, a creative economy beset by privilege, and a culture obsessed with celebrity.
• Not all nepo babies are the same—some are talented, some are not, and the truly admirable ones handle it with dry humor and self-awareness.
• For writers and creators without powerful family, the struggle is real—but the fulfillment of “doing it on your own” is potent and underappreciated.
• The podcast ends on both a call for nuance and an appreciation of the different winds that carry people into culture. And on the unmatchable satisfaction of forging your own path—however you do it.

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Book Mentioned:
Bury Your Friends by Benjamin Dean – “A Nepo baby slasher… the fractured friendships of a group of privileged teens are put to the test by a serial killer...” (03:15)

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Final Note

Sentimental Garbage brings humor, heart, and sharp observation to the question of why nepo babies fascinate and annoy us. Essential listening for anyone who loves pop culture, is interested in fairness and fame, or just enjoys two clever people taking the piss out of privilege—while holding onto empathy for all involved.

Transcript

[Kristen Bell / Paige Desorbo]

Hi, I'm Kristen Bell, and if you know my husband, Dax, then you also know he loves shopping for a car. Selling a car, not so much.

[Benjamin Dean]

We're really doing this, huh?

[Kristen Bell / Paige Desorbo]

Thankfully, Carvana makes it easy. Answer a few questions, put in your VIN or license, and done. We sold ours in minutes this morning, and they'll come pick it up and pay us this afternoon.

[Benjamin Dean]

Goodbye, Truckee.

[Kristen Bell / Paige Desorbo]

Of course, we kept the favorite.

[Benjamin Dean]

Hello, other Truckee.

[Kristen Bell / Paige Desorbo]

Sell your car with Carvana today. Terms and conditions apply.

[Caroline]

Hello and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where we talk about the culture we love that society sometimes makes us feel ashamed of. My name is Caroline, and my father, the series creator of Lost, would not be too pleased to hear about this. And joining me is the man whose auntie wrote the Gruffalo. It's Benjamin Dean.

[Benjamin Dean]

Oh, my God. Hi. I'm so glad to be here and so glad that the news is finally out that, yes, I am an EPO baby of the person who wrote the Gruffalo.

[Caroline]

The Gruffalo is your dad?

[Benjamin Dean]

Absolutely. The Gruffalo is absolutely my father. I was about to say, actually, my dad. I was about to say the reason why I'm an FO is because my dad auditioned for Gladiators in the 90s, but actually, being a Gruffalo is so much better. So I'd say this back.

[Caroline]

So much better. Oh, my gosh.

[Benjamin Dean]

I do think that I would be a great kind of son of the Gruffalo. So I'm glad that I've got this kind of.

[Caroline]

Yeah, you would really represent and show the ways in which he's misunderstood. You'd be like a real Francesca Scorsese of the Gruffalo. You would help us reflect back what so great about him to begin with.

[Benjamin Dean]

I can absolutely see that. For me, even though I, hands up, have never read the Gruffalo, even as a child.

[Caroline]

But I know, like, we're two people who write for young people who are absolutely vamping our way through this Gruffalo conversation because neither one of us know what the fuck it is.

[Benjamin Dean]

Barely tell you what. Can barely tell you what that man looks like. Is that man Bear, Ox? I don't know. It could be any animal or creature.

[Caroline]

Today we're talking about Nepo babies. I'm so excited. I have so many thoughts. I know you do too. But before we go any further, can you tell me your credentials outside of being the Gruffalo Sun?

[Benjamin Dean]

Well, obviously I have dad auditioning for gladiators. I, you know, straight into entertainment business. Gave me kind of like the want to be in the entertainment business, even though I Haven't spoken to my dad in, like, 15 years. So, yeah, absolutely. Neff baby in that way.

[Caroline]

He went for that Gladiators audition and you said Cyonara. It's like the new. He went out for cigarettes and never came back.

[Benjamin Dean]

Precisely. Went for milk and just literally never came back through the front door ever again. And then my mom used to write me sick notes for school that were an absolute lie, which is how I ended up becoming a fictional writer. So here we are. I was just like both of us.

[Caroline]

Kind of an astounding level of privilege that I would really wish you would check more at your author events.

[Benjamin Dean]

Genuinely, I think I should bring it up more often so that I seem relatable that I understand my own privilege, My own privilege in this industry. But, yeah, I'm glad that we're finally getting it out in the open now. My mum will be so happy.

[Caroline]

It's good to Eris. But in all serious note, you are an author of some fame and the. And your children will be nipple babies for sure, should you choose to have them. But your most recent book is specifically. Is a sort of a Nepo baby murder mystery. First of all, what's it called? And Tell the People. It's very funny. It begins with the epigraph, Jesus was a Nepo baby, too.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I mean, which really made me laugh.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. I describe it. So the book's called Bury youy Friends, and, you know, sounds very lovely and cheery, but I describe it as a Nepo baby Slasher, where kind of the fractured friendships of a group of privileged teens are put to the test by a serial killer who's hiding in the grounds of a country manor and demands that one of them has to be evicted from the house every hour starting from midnight. So, you know, a bit of a times clock type locked mystery as well.

[Caroline]

Okay.

[Benjamin Dean]

But yeah, as soon as I saw the quote Jesus was in that POV2, I was like, this just encompasses the entire book. It is everything I wanted it to be. The worst part was that we actually couldn't accredit it because it was an Instagram comment that was quickly deleted by a Nepo baby.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. Which Nepo baby?

[Benjamin Dean]

It was Cruise Beckham.

[Caroline]

That's very funny.

[Benjamin Dean]

If I'm getting it right, Cruise Brackham had a song come out over Christmas.

[Caroline]

Oh, yes, yes.

[Benjamin Dean]

And people were just kind of being like, you're an eppababy. And he responded being like, jesus is also an Eppababy.

[Caroline]

I hate that he deleted that, because that is so funny.

[Benjamin Dean]

Literally, I was like, oh, you're my new icon.

[Caroline]

Great.

[Benjamin Dean]

Like, I don't know how that works considering I'm sure he's like 20 and I am 10 years older than that. But like icon. I was like inspiration. Exactly what I would say if I was a Nepo baby. Look, I'm just following in the path of Jesus himself.

[Caroline]

And the thing is, the reason why Jesus was a Nepo baby too is such a brilliant thing for Cruise Beckham to say and such a great way to open a Nepo baby. Slasher thriller, locked room, murder mystery. Yeah, I just like get all the keywords in.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Is that it's like both true and crazy. And that is exactly the nexus point of which we sit in the Nepo baby conversation is that yes, these things are true about these people, but the kind of confabulations of the conversation has gone so mental that I think we need to step back from the big picture and just debrief on what we think we mean when we have these conversations. Because I think basically Gen Z discovered that the world isn't fair.

[Benjamin Dean]

Shock, horror, breaking news.

[Caroline]

And like we all, at different points in our early 20s, we all find out in different ways that the world is not fair. Like, I remember moving to the city and realizing that people could afford to do unpaid internships whereas I couldn't, and that these were feeding tubes for the arts and that I was going to have to take a much longer route to getting into the arts. And that is what happened. But also, I've now lived long enough in this career where I can look at those people I start. Started out with and they don't have it any better than I do. And most of them aren't in this, in this, in this sort of industry at all anymore. Which is a long way of saying I won and they lost. But you know what I mean. I think you enter the real world As a 21 year old, 22 year old, you see all this unfair shit happening around you and you either kind of learn to live with it or you let it sort of, you live long enough to see yourself become the villain with it a little bit.

[Benjamin Dean]

Fantastic. Quite well done. Similar to me, like, I remember when I first got a job, a full time job in London. I didn't live in London, but I lived just outside and I had to do this kind of fellowship and I was getting paid for it. But like, it's the thing when you get a new job where it's like, oh, you're not gonna get paid for a month. And it's like, okay, well, how am I getting to the job? Because I actually don't have the money to get there from Peterborough, where I'm from.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

And I was like, oh, my God, you're from Peterborough. I am.

[Caroline]

Got me and Gav have a very long stand joke in our relationship with Peterborough, which is that it's subterranean.

[Benjamin Dean]

Oh, yeah, it is.

[Caroline]

We just say subterranean Peterborough whenever we see it. I don't know why.

[Benjamin Dean]

It's kind of like the train. Every person goes through it on the train and I'm the sad person has to get up and get off.

[Caroline]

I know. I think that is it.

[Benjamin Dean]

Everyone's like, why are we stopping here?

[Caroline]

We've never been there. We'd be like, it's because it's underground.

[Benjamin Dean]

Everyone's like, why are we stopping here? Oh, that one person's getting off. Great. But like, I was like, jumping the train to get into London to go to work. And I would see ticket inspectors and have to dive off the train and get on at a later carriage where they'd already been. I was sleeping in a hostel for a night, trying to, like. I couldn't afford to rent in London cause I hadn't been paid yet. And another girl who is now one of my best friends, so, you know, love that Nepa baby, but her parents were just paying for her to, like, have a flat. And I was like, oh, yeah, great. Wonderful. Love that for you. I am currently in a hostel room with nine people who are going to Big Ben tomorrow. And I am trying to just go to work. That's all I'm doing.

[Caroline]

We're going to Big Ben tomorrow. Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

I was like, and I'm simply just going to work. That's all I'm doing. That's all I want to do. That was when I realized life wasn't for her. I was like, God, I wish I could just stay in London for the. For the night in a nice bed and room of my own. But no, never mind.

[Caroline]

And I think in the last few years, definitely it was like, around Covid, where I feel like this inflection point happened a lot, where a lot of people, quite young people, who I feel like, you know, probably were supposed to be at a time when they were starting their careers and weren't able to or they were financially unable to, because, like, I think as bad as things were post recession when you and I were starting our careers, it is probably even worse now. And there's less of an even a sense of it could get better because we've been talking for an hour about, like, how we both started in digital media and you were at Buzzfeed and I was at the pool and they were still writing jobs around. And I just think opportunities have shrank so much. And there was also this time where a lot of younger people were spending a lot of time online and they had this connection point where they realized so many of the people that they followed were the children of famous people. And that is around 2021, 2022, the term nepo baby goes huge. Like, it becomes the word of that period.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

When did, like, how did you feel when you first heard the term?

[Benjamin Dean]

I think I've gone through the journey of kind of lamenting Nepo babies being like, oh, it's not fair. Like, I had obviously had my life's not fair epiphany in my 20s, but, like, learning that someone can just land their dream job at the age of like 18 with no experience simply because their dad is a film director or a record label exec or something, yet sucks. Especially when you work. Especially when you work in the arts, which notoriously difficult to even get into. Get like a foot in the door, never mind actually make it. But, like, I think during that kind of epiphany around like 2021, when this kind of all kicks off, I did start to be like, well, what else am I expecting them to do?

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Benjamin Dean]

What am I expecting the daughter of a supermodel to do? I'm expecting.

[Caroline]

I mean, she's literally been bred for it like a racehorse.

[Benjamin Dean]

She's got the genetics. Like, I'm kind of expecting you to be a supermodel. Like, I do think the conversation on kind of access to the arts and culture and things like that is more important. I think the Nepo baby discourse is kind of like a distraction from it. Because I do think that we like to blame things on something that almost feels like within reach and be like, well, this is so obvious that the reason I can't do this is because NEPA babies like this are kind of taking the opportunities from me.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Benjamin Dean]

Whereas I think a larger problem lies in we can't, like, access to the arts, especially for, like, people from minorities and working class backgrounds, etc, is so difficult to get into. And I do think there's a big difference between nepotism and privilege. I think they can be combined. But, like, having parents who are rich doesn't necessarily equate to being a Nepo baby, like, but it does equate to having a privilege of, like, I've got the Kind of money to fall back if I fail.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Benjamin Dean]

Nepotism is kind of like, my dad's an exec and I want to be a singer and he's going to sign me to his label.

[Caroline]

Precisely.

[Benjamin Dean]

It's having the connections, it's having a rich family. I feel like is, again, did not have that. Didn't have nepotism or finances. And you're like, oh, when you look at the arch, you're like, well, if I fail, there's nothing catching me here. I'm going straight through the floor. To hell.

[Caroline]

Yeah, to. To hell.

[Benjamin Dean]

Who knows if I claw my way back out of that.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

So, yeah, I think we often look at nepe babies as being the problem. And actually it's like a much bigger society.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It is like they are the symptom of a disease and not the disease itself. And then it's like, well, I don't know. Sometimes I have the problem where my empathy slider is kind of whack. Where it's like where I have too much empathy for people with too much privilege. And that's something that I have trying to sort of like breed out of it. Because who do I have more empathy for? The working class artists who can't get into the arts or whatever. But I think what often gets lost in the nepo baby conversation is that a lot of these people have miserable lives.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. I'm looking in particular, like right now at like Gracie Abrams, who I don't really listen to like all that much. I know like, that one song that went big on TikTok or whatever.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

I can't lie. There's people are gonna shout and call me stupid. I had no idea she was an uppababy. I had no idea her dad was J.J. abrams. Couldn't have told you that. And when I found out, I was like, oh, right, sure, yeah. But people, it almost seems to be like a fun hobby for people to kind of rip into her being. Like, she can't even sing. She's not that talented. But actually, someone like Gracie Abrams is kind of connecting with a really, really large fan base who kind of look at her as like, oh, you're saying something in your lyrics that I relate to. And I'm like, well, you know, people connect to her and like her. Sure, good. Good for you. But like, like I said, I think that then opens the argument of how do you not know who J.J. abrams is? Or how do you not know who her dad is? Blah, blah, blah. That happened a lot during. I think it was Like Maud Apatow or something from Euphoria.

[Caroline]

Yes, I remember that.

[Benjamin Dean]

And everyone was like, what do you mean? You don't know who her dad is? Yeah.

[Caroline]

How it's like, how are you getting to Judd Apatow through Maud Apatow when it's like you and I gre. Like, he was like the director that you knew the name of, you know?

[Benjamin Dean]

But, like, I, Yeah, I look at, like, Gracie Abrams and, like, part of me does feel very, like, sorry for it. It doesn't look like a fun life to live where you're trying to. You're doing something that you're. You do. You seem pretty good at. You're pretty successful at.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

Am I aware that she's got there through success? Absolutely. Does my heart absolutely bleed for her being in this level of success? No. Like, I don't go to bed at night thinking, poor Gracie Abrams. How is she going to sleep right now? But, like, a part of me does look at the discourse and think, is this massively inflated and just doesn't feel like it matches what we're mad about here?

[Caroline]

I think what's also interesting is that the critique I often see online is that you'll see some video of like, a Dakota Johnson or Gracie Abrams or any of the above or whatever, and they are being asked by a journalist about their family connections to the industry. And they will respond kind of knackered and kind of like, yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, I guess it did probably help, but, you know, I'm here now and I'm promoting this. They'll be very kind of like, I'm kind of over this. And then the comments will be sort of so rife with like, it's not that she's an EPO baby. And by the way, it is always she.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, literally always she.

[Caroline]

Always fucking she. It's not that she's an EPO baby, it's that she refuses to own up to it or whatever or blah, blah, blah. And first of all, I don't think people understand that when we watch an interview like that of, like, a Dakota Johnson on a press junket circuit, I mean, you and I, both former journalists, we have both done press junkets. They do not understand the volume of interviews they are doing in a given day and how every single one of them will have a question about their famous parent. And that therefore, we cannot expect them to be sort of like good humored and wry and like, yeah, you know What?

[Benjamin Dean]

And the 40 answers of the same.

[Caroline]

Question, they have to answer yes, right? And like, I do feel for the one that, like, God, that must be annoying.

[Benjamin Dean]

Like, there is. I do sometimes think celebrities do absolutely put their foot in it when, like, I remember Patrick Schwarzenegger did White Lotus. His name is Patrick, right? Yeah. And I think he did a quote being like, yeah, everyone kind of thinks I got this role because of who my dad is. But, like, people don't see the struggle that I've had to go through to get here. And it's like, yeah, see, look, you actually had everyone kind of fine because everyone thought you were great in the show.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

What you didn't have them with was moaning that people haven't seen the 10 years of hard work it took to get there. Maybe it did, in your opinion, take 10 years of hard work. I'm not negating the fact that maybe it was, like, hard work and no sleepless nights, whatever. But you can't tell me that I should feel sorry for you simply because I didn't appreciate the fact that you've been trying to get a main role for 10 years or something. I'm like, I don't feel sorry for you.

[Caroline]

I just don't feel sorry for you.

[Benjamin Dean]

Why did you talk? Just keep your mouth shut. You could have just been the pretty boy from White Lotus that everyone loved and thought was great in the show and you're getting loads of great reviews for, and then suddenly you go and ruin it. And now everyone thinks you're a bit of a fool.

[Caroline]

I think what often people of enormous privilege miss, and that can be they're very rich or that their parents are famous or a combination thereof. What they often miss is that, like, they don't understand why people don't see that. They, yes, that they have wealth or whatever, but they also have emotional struggles, crisis of confidence, issues with their family that we'll never know about. All we know about is the Wikipedia page. What we don't know about is all the kind of struggle and strife and divorces and whatever. Whatever has gone into the average famous person's life. And then they get these questions about their privilege, and they think, you know, e. G. Lily Allen, who will think, like, listen, you know, I was kind of neglected as a kid. My dad used to bring me to music festivals and, like, abandoned me. And I'd be wandering around by myself. I have, like, a lot of trauma in my background or whatever. And they will front foot with that in this very defensive way, not realizing that normal people have those struggles also. They have those struggles also of neglect and abuse often. And they also have the financial thing.

[Benjamin Dean]

And you know what? This isn't necessarily in response to Lily Allen.

[Caroline]

I'm not who I love who I love. And we've done a great podcast about before.

[Benjamin Dean]

I'm not saying that her traumas are not valid, but in general, sometimes I look at celebrities being super defensive about their own privilege, and I'm like, why do you so desperately want to be this relatable? Like, why do you want to pretend that your life has been a huge struggle when you have such a privilege of being able to access where you wanted to get to in the first place? I often find that some celebrities who have this nepotism and privilege often do just want to kind of seem like they've worked really hard to get somewhere and not. They approach it really defensive and don't get that. Like, yeah, like you said, other people also went through that as well.

[Caroline]

And I often, like, on top of.

[Benjamin Dean]

The finance stuff without having, like, a family of millionaires and multi millionaires to fall back on. Like, yeah, they just try so hard to be relatable. Sometimes I'm like, sometimes you start. I'm starting to see this on Tick Tock a lot as well, where sometimes influencers who have this kind of, like, wild wealth and lean into it and like, here is a day in the life of someone whose allowance is $200,000 a month or something stupid. And people are watching it being like, wow, like, I'm so tuned in. Like, I feel so poor watching this, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're not complaining because they're like.

[Caroline]

Yeah, the person's being quite frank about the way it is that they're showing them.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, this is wild of me that I have a $200,000 allowance, but this is what I'm gonna spend it on. And it's like, okay, cool. Like, sometimes it's fine to just admit that, yeah, this is my life, and, like, I've got it pretty good. Great. I'm never quite on board with this is the like, unless it's completely valid. Sometimes you do look at celebrities and you're like, yeah, you have had trauma to get to where you are now. And I very much appreciate that. But sometimes I'm like, you just try and see how to be very easy.

[Caroline]

It's the looking for. I mean, I think as animals, we are very resistant to anything that looks for our pity. Right? Because we. Because we know it's a finite resource and something inside of us thinks, this is for children and baby animals. Sorry. And you can't have it unless I really feel like you deserve it. That is innate within us because we see pity and we see our resources being stretched, and we think it's like that. It's like that bit in that movie the beach where the guy gets hurt and he's like, you have to either die or get better, but you can't just stay like this. You are stretching the resources of the group emotionally just by complaining like this. And that is how we feel when we see a celebrity looking for our pity for their fabulous life. But I also. Here's something. And this is like, actually, okay, so you and I have, like, talked. You know, we've done the upfront, which is that we are too old to really give a fuck about EBO babies. We've kind of made our pile. Sorry. And we're sort of fine with it, and we find it amusing. It doesn't upset us. But what I think is really interesting is how the nepoababy conversation and this conversation we're talking about of, like, formulaic pity and, like, trying to seek pity as part of, like, a wider brand strategy is the nature in which I think that fame has changed in the last sort of decade. One of the ways is obviously that I think a sense of fabulousness is kind of left the building. Like, the idea. Bring that back. Bring that back. Being, like, cunty and being like. Well, I don't know. Like, that sense of, like, being a little bit intentionally, a bit of a space cadet. Like the way Cher tweets.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

The reason we treasure why Cher tweets that way is because nobody is doing that. Nobody's just, like, up in space anymore. Everyone has to be ground down to lie. People are sort of afraid of saying things with their whole chest because they're, like, afraid of online blowback. And therefore, the only safe territory for them to talk openly is their vulnerability. Because if it really happened to them, that means you can't criticize it because it really happened. And it's to do with mental health. And, like, that has become very boring for us. Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

I miss. I'm sure celebrities absolutely do not miss, but, like, I do kind of miss that. Kind of like celebrities feeling a million times removed from the average normal person.

[Caroline]

Right. Like Mariah Carey, who didn't hear that Katy Perry went to space.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And she was like, what? Why did she do that?

[Benjamin Dean]

And famously, like, doesn't acknowledge, like, the passing of time simply because she doesn't want to have birthdays and age herself. Like, I'm like. Things like that make me laugh because I'm like, it's so removed from, like, what my life is.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

I love looking at celebrity life and being like, that's not even aspirational. That's just crazy and hilarious. Like, it's funny, but, like, I do kind of miss that before. Celebrities kind of got themselves on Twitter back in the day and wanted to kind of be like, oh, I'm gonna be. I'm gonna talk to my fans, and my fans are my friends. I'm like, ah, you've ruined the illusion now. So you don't see Beyonce kind of being like, my fans are my friends?

[Caroline]

No.

[Benjamin Dean]

She comes on and says, I have something that I want you to buy, please.

[Caroline]

BEFA's like, I've come to visit you from space. Like, I have come down on my spaceship, and here is what I have.

[Benjamin Dean]

In fact, I saw a. Off topic slightly, but I saw an article recently that Beyonce is moving to the UK and she was pictured in a garden.

[Caroline]

Why would she do that?

[Benjamin Dean]

Well, America, she has kids. She was like, not here, but, like, apparently she was pictured in a garden center in the Cotswolds. And I was just like, I hate that. I really hate that. I'm so sorry. That actually can't. That can't be it.

[Caroline]

Beyonce cannot be in the Cotswolds.

[Benjamin Dean]

I don't know what it is, but, like, she can't be in the Cotswolds. Come on, now.

[Caroline]

And, like, no, Beyonce can leave the US but she has to move to, like, Sorrento or something. Do you know what I mean?

[Benjamin Dean]

When I heard it, I was just like, I'm gonna ignore this information and pretend I'd never heard it because, like, what? I refuse.

[Caroline]

It's like in Spider Man 3 when he reveals his identity and everyone decides to protect it. It's like, no, I will not observe.

[Benjamin Dean]

Simply will pretend I literally never saw it. But then I think I read an article. It's like, it's gonna be on, like, I don't know, a acres of land. And I'm sure she's got, like, four miles of land between the house and the fence.

[Caroline]

Oh, yeah. It won't be relatable.

[Benjamin Dean]

Her life in London, Love, but, like, the concept that, like, oh, Beyonce's down the road, like, in Oxfordshire or something. I'm so sorry. That's wild to me.

[Caroline]

Beyonce's address in Hertfordshire.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, not for me.

[Caroline]

Why?

[Benjamin Dean]

No, I don't like it at all. I just, like.

[Caroline]

I can't even imagine her saying Hertfordshire.

[Benjamin Dean]

Me either.

[Caroline]

In, like, her Texan accent.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, but, like, reverting back To Hailey Bieber wearing the Nepe baby T shirt. I remember looking at that when she did it and being like, I saw the pictures first and was like, that's quite funny actually. Like, she knows everyone's calling her a Nepo baby as if it's a dragon. She's like, yeah, I am now what? And then she made a comment about it and the comment just made it worse. I was like, I actually.

[Caroline]

What did she say?

[Benjamin Dean]

She kind of sat down and was like, it was my way of, you know, when celebrities say a lot and actually don't say anything.

[Caroline]

Right, right, right.

[Benjamin Dean]

It was a lot of, kind of word salad of her being like, you know, it's my way of responding to what people are saying about me saying that I'm an EPO baby.

[Caroline]

And I was like, it's like, girl, does this T shirt.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, the T shirt was literally enough and I thought it was hilarious. I was like, that is so funny. Being like, yeah, now what?

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

You could have just left it there. And actually what I got was a two minute response where I was like, ah, now I.

[Caroline]

This is it again. Changing nature of celebrity, where it is now impossible to just do a thing and leave it there.

[Benjamin Dean]

It's like, why'd she have to make.

[Caroline]

It like, comment on the common. On the common.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, I didn't need that because ultimately.

[Caroline]

She'S probably promoting something, so therefore it has to answer questions and therefore we have to. Yes.

[Benjamin Dean]

Which kind of. Even though I don't use lip gloss, I kind of wish I did because that kind of slays as an idea.

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[Caroline]

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[Caroline]

To be honest, I don't really observe Hailey Bieber, but what I will say is that. Is that an EPO baby? Sure. But she's not even the child of a main Baldwin. No, she's off of a tertiary Baldwin. Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

And you know what? It's kind of. I feel okay. Sorry, it shouldn't be Heartbleed mini violin for Hailey Bieber. But, like, often when I see her in paparazzi scenarios or out in public, no one is paying attention to her. Is always, oh, you're with Kendall or you're with Gigi Hadid or you with Justin Bieber. And there are all these videos of, like, the paparazzi pushing her out of the way to get to Kendall. And, like, she'll be outside of the group.

[Caroline]

And I'm like, isn't she the most famous girl in the world? So I hear.

[Benjamin Dean]

Well, when you put her next to her, Kardashian, Janna, like, Kendor, she's like.

[Caroline]

The Barbie that completes the set. Yeah, she's like a skipper almost.

[Benjamin Dean]

A little bit. A bit sorry for it.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, don't even say that. This is what celebrity has done to us.

[Benjamin Dean]

It has completely warped my brain. Damn it. Oh, my God, I can't believe I've fought him for it.

[Caroline]

No, but honestly, like, okay, it's the thing. This is again, you know, people might hate this, but it's like, yes, is she the child of a Lesser Baldwin 100? But also, are there people out there doing a lot less with a lot more? For example, Arland Baldwin is the child of the main Baldwin. We don't talk about Ireland Baldwin ever.

[Benjamin Dean]

I was just about to say, I really hope you didn't ask me what she does, because in my head I.

[Caroline]

Was like, she does fuck all, mate.

[Benjamin Dean]

Do you know what?

[Caroline]

Who knows what she's trying to get started? We don't know.

[Benjamin Dean]

Maybe. Might be me. If I was an EPO baby, I don't know, would that be me? Would I just do fuck all? Would I?

[Caroline]

You know what? It's so hard to say it is because the thing is, again, because we are so obsessed with reducing down to where the kind of the blunt instrument of calling Nepo babies out and whatever, we sort of miss what's kind of fascinating about them, which is that they are people who grow up in a extremely parasitic environment where Their, their parents jobs rule their lives. They, they, they interrupt their school years, they take them away from their friends or their parents just go missing for a long time. They are often the victims of profound negligence, as we said before. And their parents mental health and wellness is often affected by their job. That is so all over the place or whatever. Like I remember even hearing like a very funny interview with Maude Apatow when she talked about being on family vacation when Judd got the first weekend box office numbers for Walk Hard, which by the way is one of my favorite films, and that it was like she'd never seen her father so upset in his life. She thought that somebody had died and that like the color drained from it face and like that's just one funny instance. But if we think about all the ups and downs from the celebrities that we enjoy, like those children are present for those ups and downs, plus the ones that we don't see. And yet they choose these industries anyway because they're not exposed to anything else. Because like they want to get the approval of their parents. Because, like, why, like doing it for.

[Benjamin Dean]

The approval of your parents. Good Lord.

[Caroline]

That's the recipe for disasters. That's a dynamic we're not talking about.

[Benjamin Dean]

Like, like, I know we said that nepotism and nepa, baby, in the discourse usually does the buck does just stay with women.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

Brooklyn Beckham.

[Caroline]

Fascinating.

[Benjamin Dean]

A fascinating case.

[Caroline]

Fascinating case.

[Benjamin Dean]

Look at. I kind of ironically love it because maybe that would be me if I was an epobie actually. Because we all take, we all take the piss out of Brooklyn Beckham for being like, what, what do you do successfully? Quickly.

[Caroline]

Like, quickly.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, quickly. Like, what do you do? Like you're a cheese sandwich photographer or something. I don't know.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, the photography, the sandwich. Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

Like, but can you. Well, I'm not, I'm not about to defend Brooklyn Beckham in any way, shape or form, but I'm like. But he also.

[Caroline]

He hasn't done anything.

[Benjamin Dean]

He's not done anything.

[Caroline]

But I'm not, He's not by any stretch a bad person. He's not like a. He's never gone to a Halloween party in a Nazi costume for some people.

[Benjamin Dean]

But like, if you, if he had, if you had the opportunity, would you not try your hat at different hobby. It's kind of like having a hobby and just. It's a hobby that's playing out in front of the whole world because your dad's and your mum's a Spice Girl and your dad's a famous footballer. Like, you're. Oh, I love photography. I went through a phase where I thought I loved photography. Did I? No, no. We all thought, thank God that didn't play out in front of the world.

[Caroline]

A millennial alive who didn't think they were going to be a photographer.

[Benjamin Dean]

Well, do you know, I saw the filters on Instagram and was like, I think I can do something creative with this. Did I know? Absolutely not. My photographic mind is just not doing what I needed to do in a camera. I have a vision and then I see it. I'm like, that's not what I was thinking, actually. I take a picture of an animal, I think it should be going to National Geographic. But if my dad was David Beckham and I got a hobby like photography. Yeah. I could suddenly see why the people would take the piss out of me being like, oh, thinks he can be a photographer now. Although didn't he go to like New.

[Caroline]

York school or something? I'm just fascinated because he is like, I think for our generation, he is the first like celebrity birth. I remember, like, I remember watching the announcement on the Ali G show.

[Benjamin Dean]

Wow, that's a throwback.

[Caroline]

That is like burned in my head.

[Benjamin Dean]

Do you see where Victoria Beckham first coined the nickname Golden Balls? It might actually not be on the Ali G show, but for some reason.

[Caroline]

I'm not sure all those. But back when the two of them used to do like late night interviews together, I just, they're all just blazed in my brain. Iconic, iconic.

[Benjamin Dean]

Always them two. What makes me laugh is like someone like Romeo Beckham, who I, I believe is the model of the family.

[Caroline]

But like, yes, he was a Burberry campaign when he was like nine. Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

You know that he looks at pictures of David and Victoria in the 90s and it's like, yeah, they did that. They ate.

[Caroline]

They ate.

[Benjamin Dean]

You know, he said, mother ate, mother ate that. You know that because like he's got a shaved head at the moment, like David did in the 90s. And I'm like, yeah, you are any.

[Caroline]

Of those boys queer? Do we know?

[Benjamin Dean]

You would think so, wouldn't you?

[Caroline]

Like one of them has to be.

[Benjamin Dean]

Your probabilities are kind of there.

[Caroline]

But from those two middle boys, one of them's gotta be.

[Benjamin Dean]

Well, there's the one that everyone. Oh, Cruise, yeah, sorry. The one everyone.

[Caroline]

Is Cruz gay?

[Benjamin Dean]

No, I don't think so. He's actually got. One of them's got a much older girlfriend. Believe it could be Cruise Beckham. And if I'm not mistaken, don't let me go down this rabbit hole. But if I'm not mistaken, the girlfriend of one of them dated Brooklyn, which is why Brooklyn and the wife Nicola are not talking to David and Victoria. Oh, have you not seen this, like massive rift between the Beckhams?

[Caroline]

No. So important context. You are a former celebrity.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yes. Gossip queen. Sorry, gossip journalist. Absolutely.

[Caroline]

Gossip journalist. But yeah, this is not, not the, the segment of celebrity gossip I know a lot about, but please go on.

[Benjamin Dean]

But like, from what we can gather, like Brooklyn and Nicola have had a massive falling out with David and Victoria. So much so that they renewed their vows recently and none of the Beckhams were in attendance. Wow. Sorry. But it is though. Gasping at your own nudes is wild though. I was a bit like, especially because you were saying like, I remember like Brooks and Beckham as like the first real like Nepo birthday.

[Caroline]

And do you remember a period as well of like. And I feel like this will be relatable and not just like we're London loveies or whatever. But I feel like there was a moment where when all the kids were still quite young, where there was always a rumor about how well brought up they were. Like you would like go to a hotel or something and they'd be like, we had the Beckhams in and those boys always asked before they could leave the table or whatever. Everybody had like a story about how what a perfect family they were. They were just sort of like such a fascination and a self fulfilling prophecy of like, you know what, like they're two hard working people who are extraordinary and they've brought up this great family. And now I think what's so delicious about it is like imagining what it would be like if your dad was this preternaturally talented football player who's also gorgeous, who also is like stunning man. A stunning man who like, yeah, people make jokes about him being a bit thick, but just really just kind of like a funny little guy with a.

[Benjamin Dean]

Weird voice as well. Sorry not to really stick needle in David Beckham, but you know, we've given the competition.

[Caroline]

But it's the voice a bit like, like Mike Tyson where it's like. Because like not the. Not to. That is the only comparison between those two men. But in terms of like, oh, this formidable athlete and this little voice actually makes the contrast even more darling and makes me more endeared to them and like, but he also, he's like, you know, predatorly gifted in terms of like the branding. He's done things that no other athlete has done before. And then Victoria has Like, forged this big thing. They're both like, whatever you think of, whatever. They're so. They're gifted. They are touched by fate. You know what I mean? They are hard working. They are grafters. And then Brooke Lynn, just being this professional hobbyist is so fascinating and darling.

[Benjamin Dean]

And actually, now that you mention it, I'm so intrigued by the fact that David and Victoria are notorious for being good at being famous and from so young, from such a young age. And I'm so intrigued that none of the Beckham kids yet, I know Harper is still like a teenager, but none of the Beckon goods yet have kind of leaped into that mainstream success doing something. I know Romeo's a model and probably quite a successful model, but none of them have that same famous success that David and Victoria had at a similar age to late teens, early 20s, which I find very interesting.

[Caroline]

But when you're operating on that level, do you think that is very choice, useful? Do you know what I mean? Where it's like, I'm sure there have been people who have rocked up because, like, those two middle ones, perfect bow instructor, both, you know, I'm sure there's people who have rocked up being like, do you want to be in the next season of the White Lotus? Or whatever. And there's something, I think when you're operating at that level where like, all of your family outings are paparazzi events, where everything you do feels like an event anyway. Everything you do, it's outside your own home, feels like work. So why would you do actual work?

[Benjamin Dean]

Again, when I say, what would I be like as an Eppo baby, would I do anything? I just don't know. I don't know if I would. Like, if you've got all this money and you've not done anything, I would be a hobbyist, like Brooklyn Beckham. But, like, I don't think I'd be doing anything literally, because I'm like, oh, this is. I don't know. Would I do something because I'm like, it's my passion. Would I still write books if I was an epic baby? If my mum was Julie Donaldson and she had written the grand show, would I want to write a book?

[Caroline]

Okay, can we get on to the Julia Donaldson of it all?

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, sure.

[Caroline]

Because if people don't know why we were talking about Gruffalo so much, up top is because the singer Lola Young, who is that the big single of the summer, which was messy.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Turns out her aunt is Julie Donaldson of the Gruffalo children's book empire. Whatever. And Then I think this is when the Nepo baby conversation began to lose its power. Was people being like, wait, someone's auntie is a children's book writer? However successful, I don't know if that gives them much of it in the music.

[Benjamin Dean]

Did you see that? I actually saw this yesterday or the day before. Did you see that? Julia Donaldson had done an interview ages ago, Being like. She actually started as a songwriter. Interesting.

[Caroline]

Interesting.

[Benjamin Dean]

I was like, didn't. Didn't even.

[Caroline]

Well, that makes a lot of sense for a picture book author because it's in rhyme.

[Benjamin Dean]

Rhyme.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

I hadn't even thought of it yet. Apparently I had got her start as a songwriter. I saw her in an interview. I don't claim to know the most about Julia Donaldson, but best selling authority, bestselling author of the UK history or whatever. But like, yeah, like, apparently started as songwriter before doing pitch books. So I'm like, is there some kind of, like, connection she has?

[Caroline]

I mean, if you think of Lola the Young as the lyrics, like, I'm so messy now. I'm so fucking clean.

[Benjamin Dean]

You told me to get a job.

[Caroline]

Me. It's very like, apart from the swears, it's like, very. Turn the page.

[Benjamin Dean]

Well, yeah.

[Caroline]

I'm so messy. Turn the page now. I'm so fucking clean.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. Can't imagine it as. Wow. Don't start the conspiracy theory. Julia Donaldson actually wrote these. Gave them to her niece.

[Caroline]

She wrote messy, but it's so. It's this interesting thing. In preparation for this podcast, we were reading a few articles between the two of us, and one of them was a vulture article that makes this delineation of, like, when you're talking about Nepal babies, you need to refer to a larger spectrum, which is that, yes, there is, like, there's your top tier, which is your. Dakota Johnson's. Right. She is the child of Melanie Griffith and who's her dad. Can't remember. Someone will write in and I can't be Fuck Googling. And you know. And like Dennis Quaid. So sorry, Jack Quaid, who was the child of Meg Ryan and Dennis Quaid. Like, that is like top tier nepoism. But then there is like the tear down, which is sort of industry children.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

So. And that is where it gets kind of murkier and more interesting. So, like, Kirsten Stewart's parents were in the. Her mother was like a script editor or something.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

Billie Eilish famously had parents in the industry, but they themselves were not famous.

[Benjamin Dean]

I was about to say, because, like, people love to be like, her parents were in the industry. I'm like, okay, you tell me. You ever knew who her parents were before Billie came along?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

You do not know what they were doing. I think her mum was like a background actor or a minor character in some shows or something. But like not to the level that Billie Eilish, they can get her into being a world renowned singer.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's fascinating as well because like, it's like, all right, a lot of these people who we're talking about, for example, you're Kristen Stewart, a former child star. Who are the people who are child actors? People who live in la. Who lives in la. People who work in the film business.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

So it's like.

[Benjamin Dean]

And they spend their time.

[Caroline]

It's a company town.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, it makes kind of, it makes sense because otherwise you've got kids who live in like rural America who need to get to LA for a casting call and that costs. Again, this leads into privilege and being able to actually have a parent who has money to be able to be like, yeah, I'm gonna whisk you off to LA to attend an audition for a thing you might not even get. But like, I'm not surprised that the majority of children actors have a connection to the industry because when you're that young, like I remember I really wanted to do tennis lessons when I was like 12. But like they're expensive and like Subterranean Peterborough. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, they were expensive though. And like my mum was like, well, no, I can't really afford to send. And like, if she knew that I was going to become like, I don't know, Roger Federer, then she probably would have been like, great, yeah, we can do that.

[Caroline]

But the likelihood is it would be one of a dozen things you would pick up as a child and then abandon straight away. Would be kind of a waste of money.

[Benjamin Dean]

Exactly.

[Caroline]

If their resources are tight in your house.

[Benjamin Dean]

So I'm not surprised that the majority of kids child actors are. Have someone in the industry. But having said that, to break the fourth wall, because I actually don't know when this episode comes out. But yesterday, today, Owen Cooper won the Emmy for Adolescence.

[Caroline]

Okay.

[Benjamin Dean]

He is now the kid, the star. Yeah, he's now the youngest ever winner for leading actor in a drama. I believe might have got that wrong, but I think that's right. He is from Warrington, his mum is a carer and his dad works in it or something like that. And apparently just decided he wanted to see acting because he saw Tom Holland in the Impossible. When I Read this. I really thought it was going to say saw Tom Holland in Spider Man. Always be an accident.

[Caroline]

And the impossible is the impossible.

[Benjamin Dean]

The. I don't want to get this wrong. Could be the tsunami one.

[Caroline]

Sure. Okay.

[Benjamin Dean]

About the tsunami. And Tom Holland plays is like, really?

[Caroline]

I'm sure Tom Holland is thrilled that somebody saw that he's now the Emmy winner.

[Benjamin Dean]

Well, it's got. Has it got Naemi Watts in it? I again might be getting that wrong, but he's really. Tom Holland's really young in that. So apparently Owen Cooper sees him in this and is like, oh, he wants try acting and then just joins a drama club, a local drama club that I think had been stiped from by someone in Coronation Street. Sure. But like he kind of said in his acceptance speech at the Emmys, like standing there from, you know, he's from England. He's standing there in la in front of all of these incredibly famous people with this huge heavy statue in his hand, being like, dreams can come true. And like he's like, yeah, if you can dream, if you can think, if you can focus on it and you can try and yeah, if you actually put your mind to it, you can achieve these things. And it was. I saw a tweet literally on my way here which was like, like this is kind of like proof that the arts are for working class people. Like, you can make it. And often I think it's kind of discouraged that like, yeah, it's seen as in very unstable industries, try and break into it does give that kind of inspirational boost to people who want to make it to be like it is possible. Because I think you believe it can happen when you see someone else do it. So to be able to see someone getting in there without a leg up, without any kind of connection into the industry is suddenly standing on the stage. I think adolescence is like his first major role, his first time being on a TV set. So to win that is kind of like looking and being like, right, so it is possible. You don't need your aunt to have been the writer of the gruffalo.

[Caroline]

Yeah. But it's funny with adolescence because it's like it did really remind me seeing it being celebrated today at the Emmys or whatever is that they're like, if you think about, you know, shows like this is England or Skins or like, you know, big. Yeah, big ensemble pieces that were about sort of like working or lower middle class people and they, they're just, they're quite simply used to be a lot more of them.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it Makes me. I don't know. Because so much of the. The sort of prestige TV that we all obsess over now is about either famous people or rich people. Like your white lotuses and. And your successions or whatever.

[Benjamin Dean]

And like Saltburn. Except like all the big talking points of the big successful things do tend to be like, very. Surrounding a narrative about money and wealth.

[Caroline]

Yeah. We're kind of obsessed with it and we've sort of written ourselves our own kind of get out clause as a kind of a cultural society. Because we're like, well, if we're punishing the rich people, then it doesn't matter then. Then it's like, okay. Because like, one of these wealthy hotel people are going to be murdered by the end of this. So it's. And they're all kind of miserable. So it's kind of. Okay. It's kind of. It's sort of reverse escapism where we tell ourselves that rich people want to escape.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Caroline]

Yeah. As opposed to like, we want to be them or whatever. It's very. It's a very odd trend in media lately. As opposed to like. Yeah, like, bigger ensemble pieces that are about people who aren't wealthy is like, quite rare. Like. Or even like Shameless or whatever.

[Benjamin Dean]

True. Actually, I mean, it's funny because I may be guilty of doing the same. Like, my. I write YA thrillers and all the three that I've written so far are all to do with rich, privileged people who are in set. And I often say that I wrote them because they're in settings that I simply don't have access to. And I want to be able to kind of put my own twist on a place that I don't have access to. So, first one set in Buckingham palace. Not making that, but I'm just nosy.

[Caroline]

They didn't give you a guy a tour?

[Benjamin Dean]

No. I nearly got arrested outside Buckingham palace doing research for that book because they were like, what?

[Caroline]

Really?

[Benjamin Dean]

It was dark and I was lingering around in the hoodie just trying to get us like a scale of Buckingham Palace. Like, what are you doing? I was like, just book research, I.

[Caroline]

Promise, for a children's book.

[Benjamin Dean]

But like I said, do like. I said that it was simply because I wanted to kind of imagine what it would be like if I was allowed access to this kind of space. Similar to how to Live Famous is set in Hollywood. And like, I am not an actor. I'm likely never making it to Hollywood unless, I don't know, I write a screenplay or something. Maybe one day wish we're thinking I'm delusional enough to think I could win an Oscar one day. I don't know what for, but I could.

[Caroline]

Maybe we're both winning Oscars.

[Benjamin Dean]

Here we go together. Here we go.

[Caroline]

Can't believe we were nominated the same year.

[Benjamin Dean]

There we go.

[Caroline]

Lovely. Hope you win.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, maybe I am guilty of, like, wanting to write narratives where kind of you see rich people, rich and privileged people getting their comeuppance, in a way.

[Caroline]

Is that bad? I don't know. I don't know. It's not. It is certainly not bad. And it totally makes sense because. And again, in the same way that it makes complete sense that the Nepo baby conversation has become this sort of symptomatic thing of a larger illness, which is that we're living through a deep, deep, you know, economical crisis with which there are very few clear avenues out of it. And so. And it's also that thing of like.

[Kristen Bell / Paige Desorbo]

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[Caroline]

Monday Sidekick. The AI agent that knows you and your business, thinks ahead and takes action. Ask it anything seriously. Monday Sidekick AI you'll love to use. Start a free trial today on Monday.com. the thing of the middle class shrinking. The people living in poverty is growing, but also the wealth class is also expanding. So there are just more people who are massively wealthy that are. That we can just sort of look at and despise now. We hear much more about them because of social media. We're getting access points to them. It is normal to be frustrated by them. But I do think there is, like, a part to play from the commissioners of being like, there has to be a moment where we, like TV and film cannot be about big houses and hotels. Do you know what I mean?

[Benjamin Dean]

I just, I actually, I don't know if that time's coming anytime soon.

[Caroline]

No, it does not.

[Benjamin Dean]

Because like, I'm thinking, I'm thinking like how obsessed everybody was with salt, but. And like, that is a story at its Core of like a rich family kind of being kind of attacked by a working class person who like, quote unquote, doesn't belong in their kind of privilege.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

But it is written and directed by a woman who's very posh and has lots of privilege and apparently can just get the person who like, owns that actual manor to be like, hey, do you mind if we film here for the summer? And I'm like, please. Love the concept. But then, like, like, intrigued because I personally, I actually did really enjoy Saltburn. I'm not sure if I'm in a minority when I say that, but I know the trailer for her new Wuthering Heights just got released and I was like, I'm so in.

[Caroline]

I think it looks fucking great.

[Benjamin Dean]

I think it looks phenomenal.

[Caroline]

And people are so mad.

[Benjamin Dean]

People are so furious. And I'm like, I simply love. I will be seated. What do you think about the. I think it was. It might have even been Amanda Seyfried. Is that how you say her last name? Said that like it all comes out in the wash. Like it's all, you can be an F baby and get your foot in the door and get a role, et cetera. But like, at the end of the day, what sticks is, are you any good? Are you talented at what you're doing? Which I actually just don't think is true entirely.

[Caroline]

So I think it's half true. I think it's half true in the sense that, like, I think people are unnecessarily harsh on Emerald Fennell.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And by the way, so do I.

[Benjamin Dean]

Because I think. Great. Her cinematography, stunning.

[Caroline]

Stunning. And also, like, in a time where cinema is like so rarely penetrating the culture, everything has to be an eight part drama. Now she is a. A youngish female auteur who is making stuff that is sticking to the culture. Like it's. And it's not just like, you know, gross out scenes, the bathwater and Saltburn. It's like, like whenever I open TikTok dialogue scenes from her movies are going around. People are obsessed. Those movies are sticking. And like they. I think that would happen whoever she is. Right. Like, I think she clearly is gifted. And by the way, nobody has more reasons to be mad at Emerald Fennell than me because. Because her film was called Promising Young Woman. It came out very shortly after my book Promising Young Women. I'm sorry, is there some behind the scenes gossip that I will never air on this podcast? I. Absolutely there is.

[Benjamin Dean]

Wait for this podcast to finish so I can ask. I'll Spill it.

[Caroline]

I'll spill it. Showbiz editor Benjamin Dean. But yeah, I think, okay, I think what it is true. It does all come out in the wash in terms of if somebody is gifted, we will find out soon enough. It will come apart. However, what does not come out in the wash is the working class people. Or not even working class, just people, people, not privilege. I think I'm using working class as a catch all for all kinds of people who don't have privilege, which means people who are non white, which means people who are queer, which means people who are of different gender, whatever. All the reasons why somebody might not be sort of like quote unquote, palatable enough or easy enough for the entertainment industry to take right now. Their talents are not coming out in the wash because they're not giving platforms to give them. And so you can't say things like it all comes out in the wash when only half of the load is going in.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. And also that. Wow. I mean, wow, wow, clip that. Get that on a T shirt immediately would buy. Sorry, I was, the thing was I was actually watching you make like, say, say all this and I was like, I feel like we're coming into land somewhere really good right now. You really stuck the landing on that one.

[Caroline]

Thanks, man. It's so nice when I have people come over to my house and tell me I'm doing good at my sentences.

[Benjamin Dean]

That was really. I was just like, there's gonna be a real punch to the end of it. Even better than I expected.

[Caroline]

See non nepo's uplifting each other so we just see more of it.

[Benjamin Dean]

They don't do that to each other. But like, also, I don't think that saying it all comes out in the wash does actually equate for the fact that if you aren't actually good or talented at what you're doing, some people are just allowed to fail upwards. And that works for, you know, someone who, I don't know, dad, is the CEO of a company or whatever and they do an awful job, but they're still allowed to keep their job, whatever. But like some people are. You look at. There are people who notoriously people look at and say, you are a terrible actor. How on earth do you keep scoring these roles? And it's like, well, you kind of are embedded in the industry and you're allowed to be bad because you don't have. It's like you're kind of. That's your in to the industry of. You've got these connections to stay.

[Caroline]

I really do think that, like, to go back to the subject of the radically changing nature of fame.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

The people who used to be famous, sort of like Julia Roberts, Meg Ryan, Whoopi Goldberg. It's like everybody in the world was like, that person. There is something about that person. We need to can it, we need to bottle it. They're special and we need more of it.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And now I feel like something has happened where. Because there are more avenues with which to be famous so that you can be tick tock famous, you can be Instagram famous, you could be talk show famous, you could be all kinds of different famous. The power of fame has been diluted to the point where we can't just find a new actor and be like, they came up via Juilliard and everyone's obsessed with them. And so now we're gonna launch them and now they're gonna be huge. It's because we haven't like. It's like star power has become so dispersed that we can't really take any big bets on anyone anymore. So there's no one who can like, fortify movies in the same way anymore, particularly young people in their 20s. And so when you're trying to cast a 21 year old, and I have lots of friends who work in film and TV who say this, they're like, the go to is Nepos. Because they have name recognition.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. And so trying to make that draw.

[Caroline]

Exactly. And so I do think everything has become about name recognition. I mean, I think it's why Nigel Farage is going to be the next prime minister. It's because everyone just knows his name because he's been around for a fucking long time. And because England is racist.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, that part too.

[Caroline]

That part two.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. I.

[Caroline]

But like, a new racist couldn't make a name now. But because we've had this racist around for a long time, everyone, like, is like, well, we know his name.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. I have seen. I can't remember who it was, but someone was talking about the music industry and being like, 20 years ago, you could release a song and it would chart at number 47.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

Or it would chart like number 80 or whatever. And your career wasn't over. You were now building on that. And that song would get up to maybe the top 10, or maybe it drop out completely, but your record label would still work with you to get to X, Y and Z. Whereas now everyone. And you hear a lot of artists kind of saying this in a really, like dry humored way, but they're being so serious when they say, oh, yeah, you know, like, the label want a TikTok here. They want something that is palatable to go big on TikTok. And it just means that, like, success in all those kind of creative arts industries are kind of. Their foundation has to be built on a very quick trend that will go. And then they'll cast you aside and you'll be replaced by someone else very quickly.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

And, like, something I think about often that I wish I had the privilege is I wish I had the privilege of working on something and knowing that if it didn't work, it's okay. And I can still try or I can still build on that.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

Whereas sometimes I feel like, oh, God, if this doesn't work and I have nothing to fall back on, I could be out on my ass like. Like tomorrow and not have a job. Whereas, like, when you are. You have that nepotism or that privilege in an industry, you can afford to take a really big creative swing.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

And miss completely and really up and still be fine and still not even be out of the industry. And okay. With money, you can still even stay in the industry. Like, I. I genuinely write. I write sometimes out of complete fear that, like, oh, my God, if this doesn't work, I could be like, who's gonna let me have a second chance?

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

Cause you always feel, especially when you come from, I'm black. I'm gay. My stories are often black and gay. And I'm like, you almost feel the pressure of, like, you have to prove that our stories matter.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

For them to want to keep publishing or highlighting our stories. And it's just I always write with that kind of fear and panic that, oh, no, what if it doesn't work? And I sometimes am like, God, what must it be like to be like, yeah, I can take this. Like, what would it be like to be Brooklyn Beckham and be like, I can take this massive swing at being.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. And he's taking the smallest of swings.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

He's a succession of tiny swings.

[Benjamin Dean]

I would be taking the biggest slugs in the world to be like, I can give this a go, because what's the worst that could happen? I inherit Beckenham Manor or whatever they call that.

[Caroline]

Worse. That's the fascinating thing about, like, your Dakota Johnsons. I wouldn't say, okay, maybe it's not big swings, but she'll certainly be in some bad movies.

[Benjamin Dean]

Oh, Madame Web. I didn't even see Madame Web. I didn't even see it. But, like, she knows it was bad.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

But she wasn't worried. She just done the Materialist with Chris Evans and Pedro and Scarlett. She was absolutely fine. She was like, yeah, well, you know, I did that and it didn't work and here I am now, so I'm doing completely fine. And I'm like, oh, would love, would love that.

[Caroline]

Would love to be sort of like good human.

[Benjamin Dean]

Wait, are we back to hating upper babies? Love. Did we start defending them? And then now we've got.

[Caroline]

I think we're being balanced, nuanced and.

[Benjamin Dean]

Graceful and that's a good, that's a sign of a good conversation. Look at us. Balance. Look at us. Do you reckon they would have the same balance if they spoke about us? What would they have to talk about?

[Caroline]

What would they have to talk about? Do you know what I really dig about Dakota Johnson as a concept and all who sail in her? I think it's really important that the. Okay, we've just spoken that. You've spoken very beautifully. And by the way, I co sign, obviously I'm not black and gay, I am white and Irish. But I have been certainly made to feel in this industry as though my stories are a trend, I think, or like the people kind of sort of saying, but not saying like, you know, you really ought to just like ride this bandwagon as far as it goes because eventually it will stop and we will be asking you to get off kind of thing. It's a feeling and it creates a lot of creative insecurity within you. I don't think the entire industry should be made up of people like you and me who are terrified we're going to be booted off the bandwagon. I think there should be Dakota Johnson's who are there to remind us, guys, it's not Guernica. It's not. It's not that serious. It's gonna be fine. Because ultimately she's not upset. She's not obsessed with the movie industry. She just lives there.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. Do you know, actually sometimes I have said that I often, all the time write in fear and worry about the future of my career. But I will say that 90% of my time, aka when I'm not at my desk is me saying I just make shit up for a living is really not that deep. Whenever I'm really stressed and I'm like, oh my God, this is isn't working, I literally have to look at myself in the mirror and be like, babes, you're literally just making it up in your head. If there's a plot hole, you Made it up. So just make up the fix. I don't know. Like, it's completely fine. You're just. You're lying to people for a living. Like, you're making up lies so people believe them. That's basically what writing fiction is.

[Caroline]

Yeah. It's like, I think I always. My advice to sort of creators with that is always like, take the work seriously when you're doing it, but don't take yourself seriously or the work seriously when it's not in the room.

[Benjamin Dean]

I'm the first person to acknowledge knowledge that my. My job is batshit. Like, when I have friends who work, like, you know, eight or seven in an office doing important things, and I'm like, yeah, so today I was figuring out how I could, like, murder a character with wkd. Like, that's like, we're doing two different things. And I'm like, it's really not that serious. And I also have to often remind myself that being an author and a writer was what I always wanted. Wanted to do when I was a kid. And so to be lucky enough to be able to do that now, regardless of the fact that I didn't get a privilege or anything to get into the industry, makes me feel prouder. I'm like, look at you. You got there. Well done. You climbed your own. Your own little path to get there. And.

[Caroline]

And you know what? I mean? This might be a good place to sort of start wrapping up, but, like, when you. When you really know that you had no one fucking helping you and you had nothing and you get to see your name in a bookshop anyway.

[Benjamin Dean]

Oh, my God, that.

[Caroline]

It feels fucking great.

[Benjamin Dean]

It does.

[Caroline]

Takara Johnson never gets to have that feeling.

[Benjamin Dean]

It's like that. Adele, take it to TikTok. I'm sure there's like a sound which is an Adele quote where she's like, I did this. I got here on my fucking own. Like, everything I did is because of me. And I hear that sound like, yeah, Adele, me too. Me too, Adele. We're the same.

[Caroline]

The self satisfied Lore building. I do around that shit all the time. It is the best. The best drug on earth.

[Benjamin Dean]

I look from side to side and be like, you did this. You did this. You did this. Well done. You got yourself into this mess. Well done.

[Caroline]

And that is a gift they will never be able to share.

[Benjamin Dean]

Exactly what Nepo baby can say that left to right and say, I did this. Certainly not Brooklyn Beckham. Sorry, I don't hate Brooklyn Beckham.

[Caroline]

I think they do do that, but I think they have to have those moments so privately and quietly to themselves. And they also have to always question whether or not they deserve to be there.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

That must be a bummer.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Can we round out the conversation about with our favorite Nepo babies?

[Benjamin Dean]

My favorite Nepo baby is someone who. Now, forgive me. I know everyone's, you know, cancelled. I know. So forgive me if this person is cancelled. I don't know anything about this person, but. But they're your favorite. Yeah. Because I sent you a video of someone called King Princess.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, I love King Princess.

[Benjamin Dean]

I'm so sorry. I've never heard this person. So sorry if that makes me ignorant. But they're talking in an interview and I don't know, their great grandparents, like owned Macy's or founded Macy's or something. And there are the inspiration for Jack and Rose for the Titanic. And watching her talk about this in the interview, hilarious.

[Caroline]

So King Princess broke through under my radar a couple of years ago with a song called Cheap Queen. Stunning. Stunning. A stunning song to come out with if you are the heir to the Macy's fortune.

[Benjamin Dean]

Oh, yeah, there it is.

[Caroline]

But it's like an unbeliev song. Is like I lift to it all the time at the gym. It is so good. I love it. And I think she's great. She's really funny. But she's on this interview and it's like her. What the interviewer is asking is like, what is this I hear about your great grandparents not being Jack and Rose in the Titanic but being the old couple who hold each other in the bed? Because apparently, yeah, one of her grandparents basically gave up her seat in the lifeboat to go down with with her.

[Benjamin Dean]

And watching their reaction to that, very me, very me being like, could never be. I would have been on that boat.

[Caroline]

I know.

[Benjamin Dean]

So sorry to the man in my life who doesn't exist.

[Caroline]

Sorry to this man.

[Benjamin Dean]

But like, straight in that boat. Are you kidding me?

[Caroline]

Straight in that boat. But she's so funny about it because you could tell they're doing that thing and she's obviously had this situation all the time which is like, oh, people think they have a gotcha moment and she just rides it out. She just plays it through and she. She was just like, yeah, pretty cunt. Don't you think?

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, I think, like, to be a good Nepo baby, you have to have this dry humor and kind of like recognize that it is just a bit about shit. I used to. I actually know a nappa baby who I used to work with. Really her parents are very, very famous, and she's never lived outside zone one in London, which I think is wild, but, like, can't wait to hear about that offline. But she has, like, the driest sense of humor. And she would always crack me up because she just knows, like, yeah, it was batshit. I went to a private school and everyone was batshit, and. And life was just crazy. I'm very aware that it's silly. And I'm like, yeah. And I think that's why we maybe liked Kurt Johnson. Dry sense of humor just stinks. Everything's a bit wild.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. And, like, again, she's an important person who puts into context for us. This industry is just a thing she grew up in, and she's not that impressed by it, and we shouldn't be either. It's just, again, as you said earlier on, it's just making up stories. It's just making up stories and put them on tv.

[Benjamin Dean]

It's not rocket science.

[Caroline]

It's so boring. Like, really. And, like, we need those people to sort of, like, level out the playing field. Not in terms of opportunities, but in terms of amount of emotion that's being poured into this. Because you got people like you and me shivering like whippets. Like, our next book isn't gonna do well. We actually need those people to level out the spirit level, you know what I mean?

[Benjamin Dean]

Us being over here being like, have I tapped into enough of my trauma and sold it for the. God, Have I done enough of that?

[Caroline]

And you know who I think was probably the Dakota Johnson of her day.

[Benjamin Dean]

I'm listening.

[Caroline]

Angelica Houston.

[Benjamin Dean]

Sure.

[Caroline]

Because, okay, we're too young to really remember what it was like when she was, like, a young, up and coming actress or whatever. We basically know her as Morticia Addams. And like, various evil queen characters slay and, like, she's amazing. But there's something about Angelica Houston, and this is. I don't what I would say. I do not want to sound rude. I say this with the greatest respect to this woman. She is the daughter of John Huston and a famous ballet dancer whose name I forget. Like, John Huston, the biggest director of the 1950s and 60s. Huge, angelic. Huston is a profoundly, like, gorgeous woman. But she's weird looking, right? Like, she looks like a complicated Italian woman. Like, she is not the kind of person that gets, like, plucked from the street, essentially. She's the kind of person who, like, a photographer sees her at a dinner party at her father's house and goes, oh, she's Got an interesting vibe.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

She's sort of made of liquid amber kind of thing. Like. Like, let's. Let's, like, discover.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so I. And she kind of sells it in with this kind of queenly. Like, you can tell she was probably like Dakota Johnson when she was in her 30s. Like, just sort of like, I don't really care. I've sort of been surrounded by visionaries since I was born. It's kind of fun.

[Benjamin Dean]

I'm not asked about any of them yet.

[Caroline]

And I think in that way, Nepo babies are good for the beauty standard.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

They introduce more weird fishes into the ether.

[Benjamin Dean]

They do. Yeah. You're not wrong. I think of. This is going to be completely wrong because people will probably say that she would have been scattered anyway. But, like, I do think of Cara Delevingne and the eyebrows back in, like, 20. I don't know when she was found, but let's say, like, it was not an eyebrow time. Everyone had the skinny brows.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

Not me. I mean, I wasn't plucking brows, but like, massively huge eyebrows that were a staple of her face. And suddenly people look at her and like, yeah, you know what? Interesting. We can make that work.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

If she does not come from, you know, does she come from, like, aristocracy?

[Caroline]

Something like that?

[Benjamin Dean]

Something like that. If she doesn't have that background, is she honestly finding herself in the pages of Vogue? Who knows?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

We'll never know.

[Caroline]

We're like, they're good for the beauty standard. Two phenomenally beautiful women.

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. But also, I do think Cara Delevingne is absolutely stunning.

[Caroline]

I also just, like, again, I know I mentioned her up top. Francesca Scorsese is a very interesting. Because I think Francesca Scorsese does act, but I think what she's actually doing, it's like she's. If she's a Nepo baby, she's kind of putting it back into the company because she's, like, making Martin Scorsese sort of relevant and funny again to younger audience.

[Benjamin Dean]

Every time I see videos of them. That's cute. Question that if you're. If your parent is super, super, super famous and super, super successful.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Dean]

Do you think the pressure to live up to that is just a bit like Serena Williams? Everyone thinks her daughter's gonna be taking over the tennis world in, like, 10 years time, and that child has barely picked up a racket. Might not even wanna play tennis. Who knows? Again, my heart does bleed. But if you're trying to be an actor and your dad is. I don't know, George Clooney or something.

[Caroline]

Well, I mean, that is what I do think is going on inside the darkened mind of Brooklyn. Beckham.

[Benjamin Dean]

I think he's just like, my dad's David Beckham. My mom's Victoria Beckham.

[Caroline]

It's really hard to excel at something. I don't know. Sometimes I sort of pretend my way into his brain where when I'm like, oh, it's like, how do you. How do you have an instinct for anything? Like, in terms of, you know, when, like, you see a child prodigy as David Beckham was, and he just shows this strong inclination for something. His dad's driving him to practice every day. He's. His parents really get behind it, but it's like a faff and he's made a decision when, like, all the hurdles are flattened. How do you decide what it is that you really want when everything looks the same amount of close and the same amount of far away?

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah. Yeah. So are we back to feeling sorry for?

[Caroline]

I think we're being nuanced.

[Benjamin Dean]

I love, I love, I love us.

[Caroline]

I love us.

[Benjamin Dean]

We've done really well at this.

[Caroline]

I think we've actually done really well.

[Benjamin Dean]

Look at us being balanced. Love us.

[Caroline]

I know. I, I. Yeah, I, I mean, I hope people don't think that our hearts are bleeding for the children of the.

[Benjamin Dean]

Very rich and famous could not bleed last.

[Caroline]

But I do find them fascinating. I find, I find the conversations we're not hearing about more fascinating. And I think, like, the. There is, like, a great book to be written about this. Like, someone's gonna, Some great journalist, maybe you, is gonna write a great oral history of, like, all the Nepos and, like, is gonna find and connect the trends and the various bits and pieces, and I'll be there for it when they do.

[Benjamin Dean]

Stunning. I simply couldn't be bothered, but I will read.

[Caroline]

You're just gonna make up Nepo babies instead?

[Benjamin Dean]

Yeah, yeah. Me making up Nepo babies getting slashed up in a manor house. That's very my vibe. But, yeah, yeah, I would read absolutely.

[Caroline]

Benjamin Dean. Remind us what that book is called again.

[Benjamin Dean]

The book is called Bury your friends, and it's by Neppa Baby Slasher.

[Caroline]

Yes. Thanks, Ben.

[Benjamin Dean]

Thank you so much, Carol.

[Caroline]

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