B (2:47)

Oh, good detective work from you.

C (2:49)

Also, one of the major French newspapers, their obituary for Robert Redford started with. That was the American we liked. Sorry. Let's continue with Diane.

B (3:02)

Oh, my God. Because, of course, because of. Was. No, wait, he was behind Sundance. Right. Which is different to Cannes. So really, they just like him because they like him, not because he's like.

C (3:10)

Just like him. They're like, he's hot. He likes independent film, also hot.

B (3:18)

God bless the French. Usually. Fiona, I kind of call you in whenever there's a kind of American girl in Paris or about Paris kind of news to cover. You've done Le Divorce in the past, a book we both love and a film we both like. And also, you've also done Julie and Julia, one of the great kind of American girls obsessed with Paris things. But. But here today, we're talking about Diane Keaton. We're kind of. This is the first time we've ever done a sentimental garbage that's like this, where we just sort of hold space for somebody's whole career and what they meant to us and trying to pick apart why they meant what they meant to us. And why don't you tell me why? You. You are my Diane Keaton expert of choice.

C (4:01)

Okay, well, it all starts with you doing a Christmas episode about Little Women and me having the flu and listening to it. You and Ella were talking about Little Women, and I formulated this, like, absolute crackpot theory, which later in our voice notes, we determined is 100% correct, which is that the Family Stone and Little Women are the same. They are. Obviously, The Family Stone is not an adaptation of Little Women, but all of the themes are the same. And I think this did start because I realized there are the two pieces of media I can think of where someone breaks up with somebody and then that person marries their sibling. And, like, everyone's just kind of fine with it. And, you know, and then sort of looking at the parallels, I was like, all right, so we've got. We've got an obvious Meg in that pregnant older sister who's always running around watching Judy Garland movies. Very Meg coded. There is a tragic death, you know, so we've got that. And. And the message that I left you in my, like, flu addled state was like, I Just don't understand because there's no Joe. Like, I don't see. See where Jo is in this obvious little women parallel. And you responded with the absolutely correct take that Diane Keaton is Jo. Diane Keaton, the, you know, the mother figure who is obsessive about both being this, like, very independent, cool lady, but also about this possessiveness and protectiveness of her family that ultimately gives way to love and to, like, letting them be who they need to be. And. Yeah, okay, we're just gonna start crying now, aren't we?

B (5:41)

It's. I mean, I know you're quoting me to me from a voice note sent by me three years ago, but I really do think that's a good read for me. But, like, the. You're so right. The families don't. I mean, I guess a good way to do this would be to sort of start with her later work and work our way backwards. And I do think Family Stone. You know, Family Stone is one of those movies where it's almost like a case study for why this podcast exists at all, because it is a movie that came out in the 2000s at the kind of like, height of Sarah Jessica Parker's fame for Sex and the City, the height of, like, Rachel McAdams sort of star rising because she was so beloved from the Notebook and from Mean Girls. And it was, I remember very clearly it being advertised as this Christmas family comedy. And the advertisement was all just people running from room to room in this big kind of like New England mansion house kind of thing. It felt like a grown up home alone somehow, like lots of people, like, running around with like, aborted sort of casserole dishes of Strava, a dish that. I still don't know what it is.

C (6:52)

It's some sort of egg monstrosity. I'm not sure.

B (6:55)

Right, right. And women sitting on the floor laughing with egg all over them. And then everyone went to go see it and it revealed itself to be this, like, very complex family drama of this eldest son who comes home to his very kind of liberal, lefty, NPR sort of household, which is such a kind of a dream of both a, like a cozy family home that we wish we could all come home to that, but it's not like it's sort of cozy and it's a matriarchy without being too traditional. It's like we love our gay son and his partner and we like, we make jokes about, like, oh, this is who, you know, our daughter lost her virginity to. And it's relaxed and it's easy and about this son bringing his kind of uptight, sort of right wing coded conservative girlfriend home and trying to sort of convince his mother that she's the one he's going to marry. And then the kind of the one, two punch of the movie being that this is this mother's kind of last Christmas with her family. Oh God. And yeah, something you said to me about this movie which really moved me was that it's, it's kind of this struggle about a mother and her son of him trying to prove to her that he's going to be okay after she's gone and her trying to prove to him like, I know you're going to be okay because I raised you, but you don't need to be okay on the timeline of my sickness and you don't need to have everything dotted and crossed by the time I go. And it's so emotional and so complex. And even the ways in which Sarah Jessica Parker's politics, which are frequently horrible, are expressed, still live within this realm of like naturalism and it. And people hated this film. Like people really didn't like it.

C (8:54)

I think there's probably a few reasons for that. I mean, I think that it is like it was probably marketed not very well. You know, they thought, oh, let's market it to people who think they're going to watch Something's Gotta Give. And then actually it's not that at all. It's a lot more like sort of an Alexander Payne movie. Who directed Sideways and the Holdovers, which is another like really sort of offbeat odd Christmas movie that I loved. But the other, the other thing I was thinking about the Family Stone last night and the other movie that it really reminds me of in some ways is Stepmom because both of them have this sort of first act that's, that feels a bit like screwball comedy. Ish. That's like, you know, two women fighting. One of them is with the man and the other one used to be with him. Although in the Family Stone's case, obviously it's, it's the new girlfriend. And the. But then sort of hits you near the end with the realization that, you know, this sort of is actually a movie about dying and about a family losing their mother and that person trying to make sure her family is going to be okay, but also like accepting that her family is going to be okay. And I have a two year old daughter, so I can no longer watch stepmom or the Family Stone in some cases because obviously that just you know, makes me very morbidly think about my own death and what photos people will have up of me in their house.

B (10:27)

Oh, totally. I mean, my sister has kids, and she also is a cancer survivor. And I remember last Christmas, I was going through a real. Oh, my God, I'm watching stepmom. I'm having such a cleansing cry. And she was like, why don't you try fucking off? Like, why don't you try, like, not getting in my watts up with conversations about stepmom?

C (10:45)

I love your sister so much.

B (10:52)

Oh, my God.

C (10:55)

I. I do think that, like, the. The Family Stone is one of Diane Keaton's great mother roles, but it's also, like, specifically for me, mostly about her relationship with her son. And that conversation that, that we talked about where, you know, she. She says, don't ruin your life trying to make your life the perfect thing. You think I want to see or you think that I need to see before I. I'm not here anymore. But rather, you know, I need you to. To live the life that you should actually have, you know, to do the real work to make yourself happy instead of trying to make me happy. Because you being happy is what makes me happy, obviously.

B (11:37)

Oh, my God.

C (11:39)

But. But I think there's also so many of, like, Diane Keaton's mother roles are about her being the mother to a daughter, which I think is one of the things that's, like, the most important to her fan base, which is us. And how Diane Keaton's relationship with her screen daughters and appearances on screen makes us think about our moms. But I. I think we should also talk about her relationship in this movie with Rachel McAdams, the youngest daughter, Amy, again with the Little Women. Amy.

B (12:13)

Amy.

C (12:14)

And sort of how she. How she comes across in the family and how Diane Keaton relates to her.

B (12:19)

Because it's so. It's so good. It's so good. Do you want me to take over while you cry? Yeah, go ahead. I'm just gonna cry. There's something. Yeah, I just. I got it. I love this movie so much. And there's this bit towards the very end where Sarah Jessica Parker, who I think at this point is the only person who doesn't know that. That Diane Keaton is dying. And she has, like, tried so hard with this woman, and she has failed, and she has made some stupendous, like, gaffes, and she. She found.

C (12:57)

She.

B (12:57)

She uncovers her Christmas present to the whole family, which is like, sort of six identical framed pictures of their mother pregnant. This beautiful photograph in these beautiful silver frames and she gives it. And there's like this. This is the second time we've had this conversation. I'm still crying. And there's this, like, silence in the room. And, like. And it's almost like it's such a so brilliantly played because it's almost like Sarah Jessica Parker thinks she's made another gaffe. Like, she thinks that she's done something wrong again. And she's like, did I do bad? And they're like, no, you did really good. And then Diane Keaton sort of nudges Rachel and McAdams Amy, who's her youngest, and says, that's you and me, kid, referring to obviously her pregnancy. And it's something I relate to a lot as, like, the youngest of a big family, because there's something about being the youngest of a big family where you're always aware of, proportionally speaking, you are getting the least amount of time with your parents. Like, you always have this sort of, like. Sort of, sort of bedrock of envy for, like, your oldest siblings because they got all this time that you didn't have before you were born. And, like, they got all these memories, these holidays that, like, get quoted in the lore that you never were present for because you didn't have the good sense to be born yet. And you kind. And then, like, when you're coming up, everybody else sort of, you know, your parents try and make you as much of a priority as they can, but when there's four of you, or in this case, five, I think you're always sort of, like, begging for that little bit of extra time. And something about her sort of touching her youngest and being like, that's you and me in there is like, that thing of like, oh, just because you're getting the least time doesn't mean that you aren't the most important the way that everybody is the most important, you know. And, like, so much of how it's. Amy behaves in that movie just so reminds me of, like, myself going home. Like, she such, like a brat. Like, such a. Like, like she's probably normal in her normal life with her NPR toast, but then she comes home and she just reverts back to being this, like, seven. And it's. Yeah, it's just a. There's just a great amount of care in that film. And it just shines through our Diane in such a lovely way.

C (15:26)

It's so good. The other thing about that is just, you know, one of the. One of the real themes in that movie, because, of course, Diane Keaton I hope everyone who listens to this has seen the Family Stone, because otherwise we just, like, spoiled quite a lot of it. But you should still watch it is. Is that, you know, this sort of rush of to. To make sure that your mom is there for the big moments.

B (15:53)

Yeah.

C (15:54)

Not because you necessarily need her, but because it would make her happy. And that. That's one of those things with, with the Rachel McAdams character. She's. She's the youngest, but she's also sort of like the.

B (16:06)

The.

C (16:06)

The least far along of the family, I guess, maybe except for the sort of Arrested Development Luke Wilson character. But, like, you know, a lot of her siblings have gotten married or have children or, you know, various. Various have hit those milestones that, like, their mom's been able to be there for. And I think she's realizing that, like, you know, unless she does end up married to this random paramedic, high school boyfriend character who's sort of introduced in the very, very end that her mom won't even ever meet the person that she marries, then she'll never meet her kids. And it's. There's such a loss in that, you know, no matter how complicated your relationship with your mother, there's such a loss in not having them there to see that for them and for you.

B (16:55)

I think, as well, a big part of the, like, the sort of Diane Keaton is my mom fantasy kind of thing. Like, it's like I. I do think there are many things about her that just reminds us of, like, something kind of quintessential about women of that generation in general, which we'll get onto in a second because we've been reading her memoirs and we feel like we've been, like, really spending the week getting to know her as best as we can. But she is always playing these mothers who are, like, really on the side of their children, you know, and, like, it's like that fantasy and maybe it happens to people, you know, once or twice in their lives or whatever. That kind of fantasy where, like, you're called into the principal's office and, you know, they call your mother and your mother believes you and not them kind of thing. And I think. I think everybody has at least one story from their childhood like that, or they should, but the, like, in something like, even Father of the Bride, it's like she sort of stands up for her daughter's right to have, like, preposterously expensive wedding. Or in Baby Boom, she sort of like. She kind of got. There's a scene where she kind of Thinks she's going to give her newly inherited daughter up for adoption. Then she kind of storms back and gets her. Or in First Wives club, the way she kind of stands up for her daughter as well. And like, I think that really comes to this head in the Family stone where Sarah Jessica Parker probably commits her worst crime of the film where she says, they're talking. Diane Keaton makes this joke about how she wished that she would. At least one of her sons would be gay. Which again, is like something that's very well observed about that line. Like, of course it's positive, but there's also something that's kind of like show offy. Yeah, it's tokenizing. It's showing off. It's like, oh, I'm so good. You can't. I, you know, I'd be. I'm such a great mom. I'm not.

C (19:04)

I'm so down with the gays.

B (19:08)

Like, it is kind of embarrassing that she's like that. And I think it was embarrassing even then. But then Sarah Jessica Parker's character says something to the effect of, I would hope that no one would wish for that. I would hope that you would want your child to be normal. And then she tries to recover lost ground, sort of being like, oh, I mean that, you know, for the child, you would want them to have as easy a time as possible. You know, kind of. She keeps trying to recoup and, and the, both their, the parent, both Diane Keaton and I can't remember who plays her husband, are just like, shut up. Like, you just need to shut. Like, we've entertained you long enough. You just need to shut the fuck up right now.

C (19:46)

And there's such an impulse, I think.

B (19:49)

In.

C (19:51)

Women of that generation to kind of make it okay, you know, smooth things over, be like, oh, you're a guest. Like, kind of just exist in silence rather than kind of taking a stand. And the fact that they take a stand at that moment and instead of just sort of letting there be an awkward silence, letting the, you know, their, their gay son kind of twists in the wind knowing that this woman has just said this, they stand up for him in this way that is just like, it's what you would want your parents to do for you, you know? You know, even, even if they, they are embarrassing you, you want them to never shrink back from how much they love you and that it's their job to be on your side.

B (20:34)

Yeah. And just like the way the scene is played is because their gay son is also their deaf son. And I feel like, even the movie kind of knows what the movie is. Smart enough to know what it's doing. It's like, yes, the gay son is also the deaf son and his partner is also black. It's like kind of this kind of idea of a liberal fantasy that is quite interesting. And I guess part of what Sarah Jessica Parker's role in it is being like, this family does have this liberal fantasy, and we're gonna throw in this person to sort of twist the. Like, kind of expose the ways in which actually they can be quite intolerant. Yeah. And. But. But they. The sort of son just sort of looks down into his plate and is so, so hurt by this attack that his own sort of family Christmas and kind of won't sort of pay attention to anybody. And then Diane Keaton does this thing where she just. She's trying to get his attention, and then she throws. She throws her cutlery or she throws a fork across the table, and she's like, hey, you know, she's like, won't. She won't, like, let him disappear into himself, and she won't let him sit with that. And she sort of signs to him like, you are more normal to me than any asshole kind of pointing at her. And she just tells him that she loves him. And then you're like, oh, yeah, maybe it is embarrassing and tokenistic and sort of cringe when a woman says, I wish I had a gay son or I prayed for a gay son or whatever. But actually, do you know what? Sometimes those women are also very equipped to have gay sons. Yeah. And I just saw. I've. I've. I've seen so many men I follow on social media this week, posting that clip and being like, this is like, we all wish that we had this. You know, this is. This was a fantasy. Yeah. Yeah.

C (22:42)

Dude, did you order the new iPhone 17 Pro?

B (22:44)

Got it from Verizon, the best 5G network in America. I never looked so good.

C (22:48)

You look the same.

B (22:49)

But with this camera, everything looks better, especially me.

C (22:52)

You haven't changed your hair in 15 years.

A (22:54)

Selfies.

C (22:55)

Check, please. With Verizon, new and existing customers can get the new iPhone 17 Pro, designed to be the most powerful iPhone ever. Plus a new iPad and Apple One with eligible phone trading and unlimited ultimate best 5G. SweetMetrics data United States One East 2025 All Rights Reserve, trading and additional terms apply for all offers. See verizon.com for details.

B (23:11)

Take control of the numbers and supercharge your small business with Xero. That's Xero with Our easy to use accounting software with automation and reporting features, you'll spend less time on manual tasks and more time understanding how your business is doing. 87% of surveyed US customers agree Xero helps improve financial visibility. Search Xero with an X or visit zero.comacast to start your 30 day free trial. Conditions apply. But like, before we get into the other movies, I think we should talk briefly about Diane as a memoirist.

C (23:52)

Yeah, well, she's got like four memoirs and then she's got some collections of art books, including a clown paintings one. I didn't look at that one.

B (24:01)

I do think she got around, man. She did things to do them. She did.

C (24:05)

I will confess I have a bit of a, like, reaction when someone is either too obsessed with clowns or afraid of clowns. It feels like a personality characteristic that you, like, read about once and not something that anyone actually has.

B (24:17)

I'm actually, I am with you. I've never thought about this before, but I am 100% with you on that. Like, if they're making too big a deal about clowns, you're like, listen, we're not in 1812. Like, clowns are not a big part of the furniture, you know.

C (24:30)

Yeah, socially, yeah, very, very odd. But, but yeah, she's. She's got a memoir about her siblings, I think, which I did not read. And then a book of essays called let's just say it Wasn't Pretty that I think neither of us really connected with.

B (24:49)

No, neither of us connected with it, I think. But I think we should pause on that for a second before we get to the really good memoir because let's just say it wasn't Pretty. Appears to. I mean, I only read the first sort of four or five essays. They're quite short. And then I was like, this is a bummer. And I don't want to think of this recently dead woman this way. And the reason why it was a bummer is because it's essentially her relationship to beauty standards.

C (25:10)

Well, yeah, and she just talks. She just has this litany of things she hates about herself. You know, she talks about hating the way she looked when she was young and hating the bulb of her nose and you know, how hard it is that her hair is thinning and, and that she always wore hats because her hair was thinning, that she wears scarves because she has scars. Like, like all these things. And you know, I think one of, while this is part of, I guess like Diane Keaton the real person and Diane Keaton the, the image in our minds but like, one of the things that people keep bringing up about Diane Keaton this week about, you know, why she was so iconic and so culturally important is it just kind of seemed like she didn't give a shit. She did what she wanted and it turns out she gave a huge amount of a shit. Like, she gave so much shit about, you know, the fact that she had these small imperfections and that was all that she could see. And, and that's so depressing, but it's also so true to life. I mean, I think that like, so many women of that generation were raised to have this kind of self doubt and this kind of judgment on that front. And even if, you know, they went through the 70s and 80s or whatever and they sort of know it in a way that like, they don't need to have that, you know, Diane Keaton doesn't need to have perfect natural hair. But I'm sure that there's a part of them that just has trouble getting over it, you know, that can't get out of it.

B (26:39)

I was thinking, I've been thinking a lot about this this week and, and how, you know, there, there's no getting out of being a woman alive, in a sense, without having some like, I mean, there's no getting out of being anyone alive. Let's just start there. But there's no getting out of being a woman without, like, having some like, incredibly like, complicated relationship to your appearance, to your body, to how the world sort of digests your appearance and body. And I think for our generation, I mean, obviously my phone is just stacked with 22 year olds with lip filler, and that is the saddest thing in the world to me. But I also feel like there has been a kind of an event horizon with you. And I, I mean, I'm pretty sure you and I feel this way. And I imagine many of the women who listen to this podcast feel this way of, like, listen, I have been confronted with this world of like, dangerous, invasive, like, products and projects that I could do to myself for everything from like, you know, dieting and detoxing to injectables and lipos, whatever, and I have to just make a decision to be okay with how I look on some level and just get on with the rest of my personality and the rest of my skill set because I am going to actively lose time, like, by studying, like, how far my eyes are apart or whatever. Yeah. And, and, and I have enough options available to me that I can just like, you know, be a podcaster and never show my face to anyone ever, for example, to pick a random example. But then we, and I think, you know, we obviously do carry the insecurities of that, but we also have to make it. We sort of made a big choice on that as well. And I think the ways in which women of Diane's generation often suffered is that they were brought up in These post war 1950s homes that were like, well, there really aren't that many options for you outside of your appearance. And like, how attractive you are and how amenable you are in a room directly affects the quality. Quality of like marriage that you may have. Like, the more beautiful you are, the more likely you are to marry a nice rich lawyer or a nice rich doctor. And then that means that you'll be taken care of for your whole life, at the very least financially. And so I know we're doing very feminism 101 here, but like, I think you can't read a memoir written by a woman who was born between like 1930 and 1970 that doesn't have a chapter that's like, and then my father told me I was too flat chested and men would never love me.

C (29:19)

Well, and I think one thing that like, is, I mean, I know that, that we came up sort of during the like early 2000s, like hideous, like toxic thin culture and stuff, but Jessica Simpson's jeans.

B (29:32)

Yes, man.

C (29:33)

It was, it was bad for our. It was, it was bad. But like for our mom's generation, so much worse. And, and I, you know, something that I've talked with to other parents, especially of daughters that I know is like, how much that comes out and how that's something that specifically all of us have this like really crazy reaction to, like if our parents say anything that smacks a body shaming to like a two or three year old, you know, that we have to just be like, no, no. And we're never saying anything like that again. And also, please don't say it about yourself in front of.

B (30:11)

Yeah.

C (30:12)

Anyone who might be listening, you know, like, like trying to, to stop that cycle in a way. Like, but it also, you know, expecting them to have stopped that cycle when it was actively being visited on them their entire childhoods is, Is unreasonable.

B (30:32)

Right. And there's just like, again, no one's getting out of being a woman alive. No one's getting out of being a parent alive. Like, I have a friend who, who her. She grew up in a house where her mother had been shamed about food her whole life. So then her mother had this approach where like, you're allowed to eat whatever you want. We, we have junk food. I am demystifying junk food for you. And then my friend spent a, a good chunk of her 20s with an eating disorder because she felt like she was over allowed and her mom didn't sort of prepare her correctly enough for the, you know, so, and actually Diane writes about this because Diane, through her 20s, suffered with bulimia. And she writes about it really beautifully and it's very sad. And like she, she didn't kind of come, quote, unquote, come out about being bulimic until this memoir that she wrote in the kind of early 2010s when she was in her 60s. And, and something that she kind of really points out is like, I have read so many, you know, justifications for why young women take solace in eating disorders. And like, so much of it comes back to the mother. And she's very much like, I want to say right now, my mother is not the reason I had an eating disorder. You know, And I, I, I, I think that, I mean, a friend, someone said to me recently, they were like, I think attachment theory is a load of shit. Because it basically boils down there are three reasons you are the way you are. Your mother, your mother, and your mother.

C (32:04)

But then for like a, I mean, I, I will be the first person to complain for literal hours about how somehow every, not, you know, from a child's perspective, but from a sort of societal perspective, like everything that can be wrong with a kid is somehow the fault of something that their mother did or did not do. But I think maybe this is a good time to talk about, like, Diane's memoir about her mother.

B (32:30)

Yeah.

C (32:30)

If we're all ready to cry again, it's called Then Again and strong recommendation, please pick it up. It's so beautiful. And it's something that, you know, she, she talks about. I think it's in. Then again she says, you know, I wish everyone could write a memoir. And in my mind I was like, I don't, I don't know that that's necessary. But she writes about her mother just so incredibly, using her, her own words and her own kind of memories, not just of her mother when she was a child and Diane was so connected to her, but throughout her life and through to her death from Alzheimer's. But she also has this incredible treasure trove of journals and memoir from her mom that she includes. So it's sort of a joint memoir.

B (33:25)

Yeah.

C (33:27)

And allows her to, to bring her mother out to the world and say, like, look. No, it was. It was my mom who was really special to me. And I think a lot of us feel that way about our moms, too. Like, you know, because we have this, like. I think. I mean, I think children are just generally kind of obsessed with their parents, but they find them so interesting, especially when. When we're really young, and then again when we become adults and we realize more about who they are as real people. And the way that she talks about her mother and her mother's artistic output of collage and the way she's able to. To see her mother's feelings toward her and relationship with her own father, who I believe was, like, kind of abusive, but, like, they had this, like, very complicated relationship. It's just extraordinary. It's an extraordinary book.

B (34:23)

It really. And I can. I can feel because sometimes when I hear that a celebrity has written a memoir and, like, oh, it's really about their family member, or it's really about something else, I'm like, wah. Don't care. I would rather hear. I would rather hear about what was happening behind the scenes at, say, Annie hall or whatever, you know, or. I want to know what was happening behind the scenes with Warren Beatty. And actually, I was really proven wrong by this book because. Because in general, I don't find people's childhoods very interesting. Like, I'm like, I kind of want most memoirs to start when somebody's, like, 22 years old and out on their own for the first. I want, like, three sentences about the kind of familial makeup that they had, and then I want us to move on about the adventures of adult life. And that's just a preference for me. I generally find childhood boring. But there's something about the way she weaves in her mother's relationship, particularly to her fame, that I found so beautiful and so heartbreaking. Because actually, I think people who are. Who are experiencing fame and. Or have lived the bulk of their life as a famous person the way Diane Keaton did because she was cast in Hair, the kind of famous 70s, sort of groundbreaking musical when she was, like, 21. And then from that day forward, she just kind of was a famous person. And like, the. She. Like, I think they actually have less of a good perspective on what that experience is. And so she, at one point, she digs open. She's kind of talking about the first sort of five or six years of her career. She digs open this scrapbook that her mom was keeping about her fame. And it was. And the scrapbook was just called Diane and the mom had like just millions and millions of scrapbooks like and, and it was all it's reviews but it's also interviews that her parents were giving because the parents are like Los Angeles locals, right? They're like, they're not Hollywood people but they do live in Los Angeles. So they are kind of tangential to sort of like sort of high LA society. Like it's very. I don't know what the exact sort of like terminology is, but you know what I mean? It's kind of, it's Rotary Club. It feels very Rotary Club, you know, and them sort of like, like clippings from the local paper of it's like well, Jack and Dorothy Keaton are not shy speaking about their daugh and like they're so proud she's become a star and they. Diane has inherited her father's like wit and her mother's beauty and it's, it's this thing where her fame is being sort of translated through the kind of ambitions and ego of her parents which I think is common and normal. But it's like, it's like Diane dealing with like I'm kind of, I'm sort of disgusted by how much my parents sort of fell for this. But I also love that they loved me enough to track it and to keep it and to like. And they were so proud of me. And it's like, it's such a beautiful and complicated portrayal of that, you know.

C (37:37)

Yeah, yeah, it really is. And you know, I guess people who became famous in that time, there's all sorts of like odd parental stories from like you know, Marilyn Monroe's mother to like the sort of classic stage mothers to ye, you know, Grace Kelly's patrician family hating the fact that she would do something so gross as to become a movie star. But like I've never heard anyone like write with as much nuance and like understanding about their parents relationship to them just inhabiting this whole different world as Diane Keaton does in her book. She really is so committed to understanding her mother as a person and, and like what she wanted, what she cared about and really doing it non judgmentally which is something that I think you and I have talked about this week as well with relation to Diane Keaton. It's not, there's nothing that we judge Diane Keaton for, although I do think she's a bit Teflon in terms of like Hollywood scandals. It's not that she hasn't had any, it's that they don't stick. Everyone still loves Diane Keaton kind of no matter what she says. And I, I think there is something about her that like both like, allows us to, to have a relationship to the, the older women that we know that is less judgmental and like, hopefully makes us. That makes them a little bit less judgmental toward themselves, if that makes any sense. I mean, I, it does because Diane Keaton obviously has a lot of self judgment, but also women of her generation admire her so much for the life that she lives and that she does what she wants to do. And I think that that's also quite special because you can see sometimes, I don't know, maybe, maybe this is just the boomer women I know, but I have talked to a lot of boomer women who are very judgmental about people that they see as kind of like shrugging off societal whatever, you know, like what makes them think they're so special. To escape all of these traps that I found myself falling into. And Diane Keaton escaped those traps and they love Diane Keaton for that. And you know, it's crazy.

B (40:06)

It's like, yeah, she was never married. She adopted two children in her 50s.

C (40:10)

Yep.

B (40:11)

She kind of, she, yeah, was always kind of committed to this sort of masculine style that like almost feels like proto, non binary style now that you look at it.

C (40:21)

Yeah, absolutely.

B (40:24)

Yeah.

C (40:25)

She says what she wants. She, you know, like, is famous. Like the movies, the movie that made her truly famous, that she won her Oscar for, that made her like a cultural icon, was written by her, her boyfriend at the time they shot it, I guess her ex boyfriend by the time she won her Oscar. But it's about her. It is an attempt to capture her personality and like, for a generation of women that was taught to be like the, you know, the, the woman behind the man, like she is, she is the woman in front of the man. And that's amazing. And, and, and people just love her for it and I love that we should love her for it and everyone should love themselves for that tendency in themselves, you know, and she has this sort of like really recognizable, you know, all that self doubt that comes off as like in some ways in her roles and in her interviews, a little bit kind of blithering or, or like she doesn't answer questions because she doesn't think people like want to know about her, even though she's been famous since she was 19 or something, you know, and, but also she just, she seems really happy and doing what she wants.

B (41:40)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it's interesting. I keep thinking of it as like a magic trick. Because exactly what you said, it's like that thing of. So many of the things that she did in her life are the kinds of things that women of her generation are generally mocked or ridiculed for because they're breaking the mold in such visible ways. And you're right, she, she was Hollywood Teflon. Like, like, I, now, I'm sure, I mean, we're taking her, her life as a whole. I'm sure there were, there were weeks when it was really hard to be Diane Keaton or she said something terrible or something, or like, you know, people piled in on her. I'm sure those weeks happened. But on the whole, like, very much Hollywood Teflon. And I do think it's like, you know, she, she gives this delivery in her, both her performance and in her interviews that's like, oh, I don't know. Well, you know. Well, the thing is. Well, you know what? And that's me. So bye. And, and, and then all the whole time while she's doing that, she's sort of hiding the ball. She's sort of like, working a lot and also working a lot within a framework of like, like highlighting the sexuality of women over the age of 60. Like, we, what we. Something, we forget about. Something's Got to Give, which is a wonderful movie, is that she does basically a nude scene in it. Like, you see a lot of Diane Keaton, like, and, and that is like, I, I, I don't know very many mainstream rom coms directed by Nancy Myers in which you see that much of a woman. And like, it's not, it's never a joke. It's just like, wow, she looks fucking hot. Like, it's, and that's the whole message of the scene is like, wow, she looks really hot. And the same in like, like, okay, as I said at the top of the podcast, I have not seen Book Club. But what I believe Book Club is about, based on my watching of the trailer this morning, is about, like, a group of women who read Fifty Shades of Grey and then are, like, sectionally awoken to the idea of more interesting sex and more interesting desire. And like, these movies, like, yes, they're very much what, what we call in the uk, therefore, the Grey Pound, you know, Therefore they're made for an audience of seniors who are also the only demographic that are going to the cinema with any regularity. And they did very well. Do you mean. And like, the, it's kind of like she, it's so strange we keep talking about her in relation to her being this kind of ur mother and similar to a kind of ur mother figure is that like she's this person who we value deeply but also whose text messages we've been avoiding for the last five years. And by text messages I mean cinematic body of work.

C (44:40)

Oh, yeah. So we have looked a little bit into the last five, ten years of her movies. And yeah, I mean I, I watched some trailers and they're all, they all kind of feel like the plot was generated by chat gbt. There's one about finding the elixir of youth and like she and her friends all become like young briefly. Yeah, there's one where she is actually a young woman who due to a roadside shaman, wakes up as her 70 year old self. It's like a Freaky Friday body switch movie.

B (45:24)

Oh, like Howl's Moving Castle.

C (45:26)

Yeah. And then there's one, there's one where she and her friends go to like a summer camp reunion and have to confront their teenage bullies who are now.

B (45:35)

So we're sensing a theme.

C (45:37)

Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, the interplay between youth and age and, you know, appreciating where you are, I guess is probably where these movies all come down. I haven't seen them. Maybe they end in explosions, but I'm gonna guess that they come down to like allowing yourself to be who you are and appreciating the stage of life that you're in.

B (46:01)

What? What? Daring guess.

C (46:02)

I know, I know. You never have guessed.

B (46:08)

It is kind of fascinating though that like the. Yeah, the outpouring of grief versus the lack of general knowledge or interest in someone's last few years. And I'm not judging anyone for that because I haven't watched those movies either. But it is interesting in the way it mimics a parental relationship.

C (46:28)

Yes, yes, exactly. I mean, Diane Keaton definitely is the one sending us the text being like, why are you working? And you're like, it's Tuesday afternoon. Should we go through some of her movies?

B (46:47)

Yeah, let's do that.

C (46:48)

Rewatched Annie Hall. So let's talk about that.

B (46:51)

So my relationship to Annie hall was always that. It was the movie that I would watch in boys bedrooms before. Before we ended up either having sex or not having sex. It's the movie that a boy lures you back to his room with because. To show you that he understands, ladies and gentlemen. And it's great because it's incredibly funny and she's so charming in it. And you can't watch that movie as a young woman and not want to be any hall, like, from the, The. The outfits to, like, that kind of. I mean, did any teenage girl watch Annie hall and then not trial saying la de da la in her life, trying to make it seem like that's just the thing that she says and has always said. And then, like, I. I watched it. I hadn't watched it for years. I watched it again the other night, and it really struck me that, like, the movie is a lot more different to what I thought it was in that, like, it's still incredibly enjoyable. And like, this is. This is a memorial podcast for Diane Keaton. I am not going to get waylaid by, like, the. The various alleged crimes of Woody Allen.

C (48:02)

Let's just say Annie Hall's a Diane Keaton movie. And, like, we can leave it there.

B (48:07)

We can leave it there. But, yeah, I mean, you can't separate her body of work from his body of work. And also, it's worth saying that she. She loved him forever. Like, she never.

C (48:18)

She. She defended him all the way through to the last few years.

B (48:21)

Yeah. So it kind. While you don't want to define her by him, it would also be remiss to not include him so in Annie hall the first time we see her. So we're introduced to the character of Al B. First, and we understand that he is, like, a very famous comedian and famous enough that he's being recognized on the street and he's on TV a lot and he's working for major political candidates. So we are to understand as famous as, say, Woody Allen was during that time. And then he meets Annie at a mixed doubles game with his friend, who I know the friend isn't called Max, but he. The friend always calls Alby Max. So therefore I think of the friend's name as being Max. The two girls are, like, on the court waiting for these two guys to come in, and they're all kind of excited and sort of jumpy, and they play tennis. And then afterwards, we just get Alby and he is, like, doing up his tennis bag and getting ready to leave and Diane Keaton. Annie comes out of the dressing room and she is wearing her amazing clothes and she is acting so insane in a way that, like, of course, of course teenage girls love Annie hall because she acts like a teenage girl does. She's like. She, like, she's making. None of her dialogue makes sense. She's just like, oh, well, you know, he's like, oh, do you need a lift? And she's like, oh, do you have a car? And he's like, no. And she's like, oh, I have a car. It's so, like, beautiful and nuts. And like, I only kind of realized on this viewing that actually what the story of Annie hall is like. Yes, it's a rom com that's played out of sync and out of order. But what it is, it's about, like, an ordinary girl who meets a very famous man. Like, she's reacting to him as a very famous man who she's just randomly played tennis with. And so the kind of equivalent would be like, what if you randomly had a mixed doubles with John Mulaney or something, and then afterwards you sort of hung around long enough and convinced him to get into your car and then took him on the, like, the worst drive of his life. And then afterwards, like, dragged him up to your apartment and spoke to him about your photographs and also told a kind of anti Semitic story. And in this version, John Mulaney is Jewish. And then. And then, like, just sort of, like, bullied him into being your boyfriend. And then he gets completely obsessed with you and tries to turn you into a version of him, and eventually you reject that and leave him for Paul Simon.

C (50:54)

I. I think there is something, like you said, how much this movie appeals to teenage girls, and that's absolutely true. And I think there. There is so much appeal in the idea that you could be your, like, awkward, blithering self and someone would just find it mesmerizing.

B (51:14)

Yeah. I mean, that's the fantasy, right?

C (51:16)

And that they do what to many teenage girls, I think is the most romantic possible thing, which is try to turn you into them, and then you would be strong enough to reject that and be yourself instead.

B (51:28)

Oh, man. Wow. That really is like. There really is a reason. This is the.

C (51:33)

Well, and. But there's something so, like. I mean, I know, I know. Like we just said, oh, this is the Diane Keaton movie. And let's not say any more about it. But. But one of the things that I found out about sort of the. The making of Annie hall is that the screenplay changed quite a lot while they were editing the film. And that originally there was a lot more in the film that was about, you know, Alvy's other relationships and his ex wives and stuff. And it's sort of all that stuff got trimmed and trimmed and trimmed away because it became clear that, like, the heart of the film and what made the film great was Annie hall, which is obviously Diane Keaton. Her real name is Diane hall and she was called Dianny as a kid. Like, like, it's just it's just about her. And. And also that the original title of the film was Anne Hedonia, which is the Inability to have fun. And everyone was like, well, that sucks.

B (52:24)

And.

C (52:25)

And then they ended up naming it after the most important character in it. Because the whole point is, is her. You know? And then the film wins Best Picture, Best Screenplay, Best Director, and Best Actress.

B (52:38)

Crazy. Like, crazy.

C (52:41)

Side note, I'm sorry, but we need to say this, which is that at the time Annie hall was nominated for Oscars and Diane Keaton won, she was then dating Warren Beatty, which, like, talk about a swing from, like, Woody Allen to Warren Beatty. I mean, wow. And they go to the Oscars. And in her book that includes a lot of her mother's writings, her mother is writing about this, and she's worried because Diane and Warren Beatty are going together. And Warren Beatty's sister, Shirley MacLaine, is also nominated for Best Actress, and she's not sure that he's going to be able to root against his sister. And for Diane, there was no resolution to that. But Diane does win, so.

B (53:20)

Good for her, man.

C (53:22)

Yeah.

B (53:24)

And, like. Yeah, it's just fascinating to me that, like, she hits this pinnacle of her career so early on and becomes this icon of, like, 70s femininity so early on. Yeah. And, like, it's kind of like, where do you. Where do you go from there? And I guess Warren Beatty there is Warren Beatty. Sorry. He's one of those names where I say it differently every time I say it, depending on what words are in.

C (53:45)

That sentence, how it's pronounced correctly. I assume he's like George Takei. George Takei who? Any way you pronounce it, he. He himself will correct you to the other way just to mess with you. So I think we can say it.

B (53:56)

However we want, and then we will from that to. I mean, we don't go directly to that, but the other kind of big movie that happens about, you know, like, five or six years later is Baby Boom, which I kind of rather unfairly describe to you as being the kind of the Disney Channel TV movie version of Working Girl. But it's very. Though we have Working Girl at home, and the working girl we have at home is Baby Boom.

C (54:25)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

B (54:27)

Listen, it's an early Nancy Myers movie, so on that level, very interesting. It's kind of. It's a real take on those kind of great Katharine Hepburn movies of the 1930s and 40s, like Woman of the Year and I. And like, Diane Keaton, like, she's very much always been in conversation with Katharine Hepburn in terms of her. Her kind of, like, sort of tomboyish edge and her kind of very unique delivery. And she's kind of modeling herself on Katherine Hepburn, so it feels that. But, like, it's also just so long. And there are so many parts of the movie where you're like, I'm pretty sure this is child abuse. As in, like, two to the. The twin actresses who played that baby. Like, there are so many scenes where it's just Diane Keaton, like, holding this baby under her arm like a Christmas ham. And you just watch. You watch this baby's, like, perplexed face, like, bobbing away in New York traffic as she's held on her side. And it's, like, so upsetting.

C (55:28)

So I wasn't able to find an actual version of the film to watch, but I watched a bunch of clips about. On YouTube, and maybe this is just the, like, person who has a toddler in me, but, like, one of the things that I find so fun, funny, and ridiculous about it is, like, how completely impossible it is for her to, like, obviously parenting a baby is very difficult. Specific baby tasks are not that hard, including changing a baby's diaper. And she just struggles with this so insanely much like, she's reading the instructions and she can't handle, I guess, like, the concept of sticky tape. Like, there's all sorts of. I'm just like, this seems like something where, like, a man would claim he didn't know how to change a diaper in the 50s, and then he'd do this bad of a job so he'd never be asked to do it again. Which I guess is kind of what.

B (56:19)

They'Re parodying, I guess. I guess it is. I mean, something that Nancy Meyer says about this movie is that she always wanted to make something about this, about how, like, a woman unprepared for motherhood, but, like, the 80s, because there was such a fascination with, like, women in the workforce and shoulder pads and, like, corner offices and. Well, I'll get that to you right away, Mr. Zinger, or whatever. It was the first time where you could make a movie about a woman being genuinely unprepared for motherhood and have audiences biased, which I find really fascinating from almost like an anthropological standpoint. Oh, my God. Let's talk about the First Wives Club.

C (57:03)

Yes. Well, actually, I wondered if maybe we could go from there into Father of the Bride, because that's another movie that sort of has this like. Like, it almost feels like the remake of Father of the Bride. Came too late. Because by the time they made that movie in what, 1991, I think it probably was a little bit insane for a, you know, 20 year old girl to come home and be like, I've been dating this man for three months and I met him in Rome and we're getting married and it's gonna cost 15 dol. $50,000 and destroy your lives. And that's perfectly reasonable. Like you can see why when that movie was made in the 50s with Elizabeth Taylor, that that was just how things were done. And of course she's 18 and getting married, but in the 90s, father of the Bride, I mean, Steve Martin is really portrayed as being like quite unreasonable for thinking that like maybe a 20 year old should not be getting married. Sort of how, I don't know, Cameron people act like Cameron Diaz is perfectly reasonable for wanting to get married in My Best friend's wedding at 19. And as a viewer you're just like, no, finish your architecture degree, ma'. Am. Like, no, stop it. But maybe it's an art history degree, I can't remember. Maybe it's architecture in Father of the Bride. Anyway, but Diane Keaton in Father of the Bride is so iconic and their relationship is so incredible. And I honestly was shocked when I found out that like Diane Keaton had never been married when she was in Father of the Bride because she's such an icon and an example to so many women of her age that I know who are wives and moms specifically because of that movie, specifically because of the relationship that she and Steve Martin create and like the kind of mother that she's able to be in that film. And I think I've said this to you before, but the only thing that makes it make sense that the 19 year old wants to get married is that she's seen her parents be in love every single day for her whole life, you know, and she's like, well, that's what I want. And why wouldn't you want that?

B (59:10)

This, okay, this is my favorite Steve Martin movie. And I know for other people, I know there are bigger comedies that he's been in and that people love, like Dirty Rotten Stuff, Scoundrels or whatever, which I also like. But like there's something about Steve Martin balancing that, like unbelievably hilarious like that. I mean, I think one of my favorite scenes in all of comedy is like him taking the hot dog buns out of the bag in that supermarket. And he's like, George Banks is saying, no, I think it's just the funniest thing in the world. Like, I just so good. But, like, the reason why I prefer it so much because it's like, there's so many movies where he's just kind of an off the wall character and he's so grounded by Diane Keaton in it. And it's funny because, like, she in First Wives Club and in Father of the Bride, she very much plays the straight woman in that, like, you know, Goldie Hawn and Bette Midler are like quite outsized characters and they get all these great lines. Really, really, really funny lines. And really, Diane Keaton is the character that is supposed to hold all the heart and the pathos of the movie. And in Father of the Bride too, like, I mean, because Father of the bride, that daughter is not holding any pathos because the one. The one moment that we're supposed to, like, really feel for her is George Banks. Like, he sees that she's asleep on the couch and she's holding a magazine article that says, like, ways to make your wedding more affordable. And it's like, oh, consider. Consider making your own wedding cake on your own party favors. And he's. And then it pans to his face and he's like, the horror that my daughter would even consider doing some work with her own hands on her own wedding is disgusting. And so you're like, no. And so therefore, it all falls to, first of all, that teeny, tiny culkin. And second of all, Diane Keaton. I know that the teeny, tiny culkin, I can't remember which one, but he's practicing his, like, altar walk. Is it Kieran? Good for him when he's practicing his little altar walk on the landing. It's so lovely. And there's this bit as well where, like, there's a bit where Diane Keaton goes to, like, bail George out of jail because he's had his meltdown at the supermarket, and she sort of makes him do his vows over and over again. And he's like, I, George Banks, will not sort of like, destroy my daughter's wedding through the bars. And so that's like one of her big moments in the movie. But then the next big moment is actually there's no dialogue at all because it's her just walking down the stairs on the morning of the wedding and she's wearing this kind of gold outfit. And, like, she looks lovely. She looks so lovely. But the way that Steve Martin looks at her, you'd swear she was Rita Hayworth. Do you know what I mean? It's like the most. Like, you are the most. Like, I am so in love with you and you are so beautiful to me. And it's just like kind of the most perfect representation of long term love in cinema. And it's in Father of the Bride.

C (62:21)

Oh, it's so good. It's not that I'm recommending Father of the Bride 2, but I have seen Father of the Bride 2 several times.

B (62:30)

It's okay.

C (62:31)

Yeah. I think I've told you that when I was pregnant with my daughter, I was really interested in movies about pregnant women where they didn't come to any peril, which really are very few and far between. And Father of the Bride 2 is really good for that.

B (62:47)

Oh, did you find anything else?

C (62:49)

I mean, I read the Rachel Incident not to, you know, big you up on your own podcast, but, like, I was not fishing. No, I know, but, but, but because. Because the narrator in the Rachel Incident is pregnant, but is talking about peril. That happened a long time ago. I was like, oh, this is so nice. This is so great. We can just have little, like, pregnancy interludes and no one's gonna be rushed to a hospital or, like, have to have, like, a scary blood test. That's so nice that.

B (63:22)

You know what? That is nice.

C (63:25)

Yeah. I think you should use this as a marketing tool. I think you should. You should put it in OB GYN's offices. Like they, like, they put Lexapro.

B (63:32)

You know, do you know what? I'm gonna, like, suggest they do like, a, like a trimmed down version where it's just the bits where she's peacefully pregnant and, like, cut out all the cork in 2010 bits and just be like, no, it's just her. And then it fast forwards to her having a healthy child and for some reason having a confrontation with a woman you've never met.

C (63:55)

Oh, my God. It's like the opposite of when they put out all those editions of, like, Wuthering Heights and Pride and Prejudice with interpolated sex scenes.

B (64:02)

What?

C (64:03)

Oh, yeah. Oh, well, we'll talk about this later. This could be a Patreon special or something.

B (64:09)

Whole other thing. Oh, my God.

C (64:11)

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, no, you should have a book club of, like, just things about pregnant people, but you cut out all the scary bits and they have no plot anymore. You make a million dollars.

B (64:25)

It's an idea. Yeah, I feel like. Okay, so do we have any of the movies that we have?

C (64:31)

Oh, we still want to talk about.

B (64:32)

There are a billion movies, but we.

C (64:34)

Should talk about the most. We still want to talk About Father of the Bride, I think. Or not Father of Bride. Sorry, First Wives Club. Yeah. So I recently rewatched it a couple of days ago. And yeah, I mean, she does come off as the straight woman in a way, but there is this very particular Diane Keaton straight woman character, which I think you also actually see in Something's Gotta Give, where she holds it together so well and she's so all about attending to everybody else's needs, and then she goes absolutely fucking insane. And then she just has to take care of herself for a minute. She has these, like, meltdowns. She has one in Father of the Bride where her friends are fighting and she can't take it and she melts down and freaks out. And the fact that she's gone nuts makes her friends realize that they have to make up and stop drinking and stop sniping at each other and go back and get her and bring her back in because they need her. And I think it's. Something's gotta give. It's like. Like Diane Keaton's big freak out is when she's writing her play. And it's literally just like 20 minutes of her crying at a typewriter.

B (65:45)

It's so bizarre. It's such a bizarre directorial choice.

C (65:49)

I think it's because watching someone type is very boring. And watching someone, like, write is very boring, but maybe if they're crying, it's not so boring.

B (65:59)

It's such a wild, wild choice because everything about that movie is so elegant and well judged. And then you just have so 20 minutes of Diane Keane crying on a screen. It's so bizarre.

C (66:12)

I think, Caroline, that when you next sit down to write, you should try just like sobbing the whole time and see if what happens is great. Like, it might be the trick, it might be the secret.

B (66:22)

And maybe it is. I mean, her plays were pretty successful in the world of that movie, so.

C (66:29)

They got Keanu Reeves on board. I mean, you should try this and then see if Keanu Reeves reads your book and calls. Not really. Gavin, I was joking. That's not true. She shouldn't do that.

B (66:41)

Like, Gavin listens to this.

C (66:45)

If I get a phone call from Gavin, that's like, what do you mean, Keanu Reeves?

B (66:48)

What do you mean, Keanu Reeves? So something you pointed out when we were reading this memoir was that so much of Diane Keaton's life is like. Because she got famous so young, is like, oh, all these boys who I was obsessed with, like Warren Beatty and. And everything, and Sam Shepard. I then got to either go out with them or kiss them on screen, like, how great is my life, basically? And then what's so funny is that I bet Keanu Reeves is the exact kind of boy who grew up watching Annie hall and then he got to.

C (67:22)

Kiss Diane Keaton on screen, which I love for him. That's so great. Oh, yeah. There's a whole thing with this, actually, because one of her first roles is in the Godfather with Al Pacino. And then they like don't hang out. And then when she's directing a film, like years and years and years later, she runs into him while she's like running from pillar to post editing it. And they're just like two scrappy, you know, indie filmmakers together. And then obviously they get together and apparently it. Well, she wants to get married. He doesn't want to get married. That's the name of that tune. But yeah, she. She has a lot to say about Al Pacino.

B (68:02)

That's the name of that tune is such a funny thing to say. And I'm gonna Annie Hallstyle. I'm gonna try and put that into my vocabulary. And that's the name of that tune.

C (68:11)

And that's the name of that tune.

B (68:13)

I know you're not like a Godfather girl, and I'm not really either, but I have seen it. And I think what's interesting is that her character is like, I always forget the name of the Corleone's, but basically the main Corleone that has to take over the family business because everybody else gets shot. Michael, I think Michael Corleone. She's his sort of girlfriend and then wife that he meets while he's trying to escape the family, while he's trying to sort of have a normal life that has nothing to do with them. And then eventually he's brought in and he becomes the new Godfather. And the kind of the last scene of that movie is Diane Keaton's character sort of watching the door close as like the man that she loves, who she thought was just a normal Italian American guy, recedes into this room, this like, leather room full of important murderous men. And like that's. And we hear that iconic music and it's like, bye. And I think. And it's like, it's like her. The look on her face is like, oh, I. I have only now just realized what I've got myself into and that like, I will be in love with this man who is like, got this secret life I will never know. And that's my lot in life now. And like, I think it's like, it's such an interesting choice to have casted her because, like, I think you're thinking mobster movie. You sort of think, like, I don't know, like, not to. Not to play into Diane's own insecurities. Like, big, brassy, beautiful girl kind of thing. Like, you know, but like, she's so kind of waspy and gentle. She's so perfect. And she has that exact thing of like, oh, of course. This is a lady who would, like, marry someone and then realize after that she had married them that, oh, they're. They're the head of a crime ring. Do you know what I mean?

C (70:05)

It's funny because, like, I'm sure she's very good in the Godfather, which I have never seen, but, like, every time I've seen, like, a clip or a still from it, it just. It barely looks like Diane Keaton. It's. I mean, she's so young, but also it's like, very soft focus. She's got this, like, sort of, you know, wispy hair and all this stuff. And it's like seeing the difference between that. Which I believe she did before Annie hall, and Annie hall is like, you.

B (70:27)

It's.

C (70:27)

It's. It's like her being an actress in someone else's movie and then someone, like, realizing who she was.

B (70:34)

Yeah.

C (70:35)

And making a movie for her, you know, and. And so many of the Nancy Meyers movies, I'm like, this person is making a movie for. For her.

B (70:42)

Yeah.

C (70:42)

I'm sure they could have made Something's Got to Give with, you know, Susan Sarandon in it or something, but it wouldn't. It wouldn't be Something's Got to Give. And, And. And so many movies are built around, like, who. Her Persona, who she comes off as in this, like, beautiful way. You know, she wasn't really meant to play the. The wife of the. The big guy. She's meant to be the big guy and also kind of, you know, a little ridiculous and a little bit silly and really forgiving and kind. But maybe she shouldn't be forgiving the mobsters. I. I don't know. I assume what happens in that movie is a lot of death. There's a horse death.

B (71:21)

I think there is. Yes. Great horse death.

C (71:26)

Which honestly seems like a lot of work. Like, if you're gonna, like, put an animal head in a bed, like, pick a different animal, surely it's because he loves his racehorse. Yeah. But I'm sure he loves his dog, too. Sorry, don't listen to this.

B (71:38)

Dogs far easier to kill. And Far easier to sever.

C (71:41)

Yeah.

B (71:42)

But before we get far down that road, I am aware that you have things to do, a job to have and a child to raise, as per Diane in Baby Boom, I mean, she's.

C (71:52)

At a French daycare eating a plate of linguine with shaved Parmesan over it, which is presented as ridiculous in Baby Boom, which I did not understand because that's just what French toddlers eat.

B (72:05)

I want to raise a baby in France. Sounds really nice. It's great.

C (72:10)

Yesterday she was eating pasta and, like, twirling her little tiny fork.

B (72:13)

I was just like, isn't she, like, two? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's so great that even if you guys don't live in Paris forever, that, like, she'll always have this, like, interesting thing about her that she's like, oh, well, of course I was raised in Paris.

C (72:28)

Yes, of course I was born in Paris.

B (72:30)

And, you know. God, that's so instantly cool. I know. But anyway, you. You have to do things, but I can't let you go without you reading one of our favorite passages from Diane's memoir.

C (72:44)

Oh, yes, of course.

B (72:46)

Where she speaks about. I mean, very aptly about missing her mom.

C (72:51)

Okay, sorry, this is not the one that you want. I'm just also going to read this one because it's so sad.

B (72:56)

Yeah.

C (72:57)

Because I feel she says, did you ever pat yourself on the back for your greatest gift? Just being you? I'm sorry the small rewards weren't enough. I understand. Great expectations. Oh, Mom. Mom, you are such a game gal. In so many ways. I wish I could have made the disappointment of your unfulfilled longings magically disappear with the memory of our Wednesday evening adventure. Adventures now lost in time. And I just, like. I feel like so many of us have had that feeling about our own moms. Like, I'm sorry that you have not had everything that you wanted. I hope that, like, having someone who loves you makes. That makes that enough a little bit better, you know, like, helps you love yourself.

B (73:40)

Yeah. And there's this, like, very beautiful. Sorry, we'll get to the second thing in a minute. But, like, the beautiful passage from the beginning of the book where Diane talks about her earliest memories being that her mom was the winner of the, like, Mrs. Los Angeles pageant or whatever? Yeah. Is it this kind of, like, you know, contest? Beauty contest for married women and how first she won the local heat and then she won the regional heat, and then it was like she was going up for Miss California or Mrs. California, and how there was Just this time in their lives where she was making the same chocolate and walnut cake again and again and again and again so she could get it perfect. And everyone got kind of tired and bored of it. And also there was this feeling in the family like they didn't want to share her with the world and that she was theirs. And then she loses. And it's almost something that Diane feels guilty about. Even though she was only 4 or 5 when this all happened, she feels kind of guilty that her. Her mom was clearly trying, within the kind of margins of what was acceptable for a woman in the 1950s, to just show the world who she was and that she didn't have the tools to support her. And then so it's like almost this whole book is like a corrective surgery of, like, look how wonderful she was, you know?

C (74:54)

Yeah.

B (74:55)

God, if you want to know a woman, just ask her about her mom. You know what I mean? Just ask her about her mom. May we have the final extract, Fiona?

C (75:06)

Yeah, of course. October 31, 2009, would have been her 88th birthday. Last Halloween, she'd been dead for six weeks. This year, it's been 409 days and nights without my mother. I thought time was supposed to heal all wounds. As I wait for Dexter, that's Diane's daughter, to come out of swim practice in my Tahoe Hybrid, parked at the top of Swimming Santa Monica City College, overlooking the local graveyard, I can still see Daphne Merkin's plaintiff face in the Polo lounge this morning, whispering, diane, don't you think they'll come back to us? Don't you think they're coming back? Our mothers, Daphne? I wish. I wish they would. All of them. All the mothers.

B (75:46)

Oh, my gosh.

C (75:48)

I know.

B (75:51)

Oh, gosh. I. I just know my mother is gonna listen to this and being like, why were you crying? Crying on a podcast about my prospective death. That's so grim.

C (76:01)

I mean, to be fair, we were also briefly crying on the podcast about our own prospective death. So, you know, she's in good company.

B (76:11)

Hi. None of us are getting alive. Hi, Caroline's mom. Oh, my God, Fiona. This has been such a joy. And feeling felt very cleansing or something.

C (76:25)

I'm so glad we finally got to do this after three years of talking about it. And I'm so sad that this is the occasion that brought us together for it. But, you know, thanks, Diane.

B (76:34)

Right. Like, yeah, you know, because, like, so many of the podcasts on the, like, anytime you listen to an episode of Sentimental Garbage, you are listening to, like, the Thin end of the wedge of like, episodes I actually got off my ass and did after, like, when there are so many more episode ideas that I have with people like, know you where we're just like trading voice notes for years at a time and then we just never get around to it. And I, I think now was the right time.

C (77:02)

Now was the right time.

B (77:04)

Okay, Fiona, do you want to promote anything or do you want to just stew in the memory of Diane?

C (77:10)

I keep, I keep thinking, oh, yeah, one day I'll start a substack before I go on Caroline's podcast. But today's not that day.

B (77:18)

Okay, thanks for having me again. Yeah, love you too. Thank you. Bye.

A (77:42)

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