Taylor Swift: Life of a Showgirl

Summary

Sentimental Garbage: "Taylor Swift: Life of a Showgirl"

Podcast: Sentimental Garbage
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue (A), with guest Jen Cownie (B)
Episode Date: October 6, 2025

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Main Theme / Purpose

This episode of Sentimental Garbage is an in-depth, highly emotional, and delightfully irreverent look at Taylor Swift's 2025 album "Life of a Showgirl." Hosts Caroline and Jen dissect the album in real time, fresh from a jam-packed "Swiftageddon"-filled weekend, arguing that the true genius of this record lies in its purpose: to provide the soundtrack to every hen do (bachelorette party) and wedding for the next decade. Through hilarious anecdotes, candid critiques, and close readings of lyrics, they position the album not as “deep art,” but as a vital collection of extremely well-crafted, beloved, and ultimately universal party bangers. The episode is a celebration of feeling, female friendship, camp fun, and the unapologetic joy in pop music “for the girls.”

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. A Swift-Filled Weekend (01:05–06:07)

• Immersion Method: The hosts share that this episode is coming from fresh emotional energy, having listened to the album alone (headphones), at a club night (“Swiftageddon” at the Queen of Hoxton), during a drunken cab ride, and finally at a cinema “movie event” with 13-year-olds. Their thesis: “There’s no substitute for a weekend of full-bodied, multi-contextual, giggly, messy, female pop immersion.”
  “We have experienced, as it should be experienced, which is to say: first, solo with headphones. Second, maybe put it on the speakers, dance around the house…Third, we took it to the streets.”—Caroline (03:28)
• The Urgency of the Episode: The internet was demanding their early take on “Life of a Showgirl”.
  “I was basically getting bomb threats in my DMs if we didn’t put an episode out by Life of a Showgirl!”—Caroline (01:41)

2. The Hens and Wedding Lens: The Album’s Core Concept (06:07–10:01)

• The hosts argue that “Life of a Showgirl” is written for, and should be judged by, its wedding and hen do value: “All of this music, every single song on Life of a Showgirl can either be played at a wedding or at a hen do.”—Caroline (07:37) “It is music for an absolutely middle of the road wedding and an absolutely standard hen do.”—Caroline (09:44)
• Taylor wanted “bops,” but these aren’t edgy club tracks, they’re universal, multigenerational, “pointing and miming” tracks for dancing with flower girls, aunties, and best friends.

3. The Cinematic Experience / Film Event (10:27–12:43)

• The "movie event" is critiqued as essentially boomerangs, kaleidoscopes, and a Zoom call where “people find new ways to agree with Taylor that don’t sound repetitive.”
• “I can feel how much my cheek muscles would be hurting by the end of a zoom call—just the grinning I’d have to do.”—Jen (12:32)

4. Track-By-Track Analysis: Major Songs, Lyrics, & Moments

Each song is assessed on its wedding/hen do utility, emotional resonance, and place in Swift’s canon.

1. Fate of Ophelia ("Faithful") [12:54–24:48]

• First reactions were negative, but it becomes a "banger" in the right setting (not headphones: dance floor).
• Critique of literary references as pop culture shorthand: “She employs the references at the level at which they exist in popular culture, even when they've become divorced from their original genesis point.”—Jen (14:32)
• The song is a melodramatic, camp, “broad sketch” of tragedy, not actual Shakespeare.
• Wedding/Hen Placement: Peak hen energy, post-cry, after some awkward speeches and emotional revelations.

2. Elizabeth Taylor [24:54–33:00]

• Immediate favorite, pure hen material, joyous pop.
• Funny reflection: the main reason for invoking Elizabeth Taylor is because the surname is "Taylor": “The main reason she’s obsessed with Elizabeth Taylor is that her surname is Taylor. It’s a chance to say her own name. It’s a little bit Taylor.”—Jen (26:43)
• Iconic lyric: “Be My NY When Hollywood Hates Me” highlighted as “subtly brilliant.”

3. Opalite [33:00–37:16]

• Not for the hosts personally, but destined to be a wedding/birthday/kids’ party favorite.
• Lyrics designed for intergenerational dance floor miming and pointing.
• Concluded: “Pop is for babies and we have to remember that.”—Caroline (36:27)

4. Father Figure [37:33–46:34]

• Described as “the crown jewel of the album” (Jen’s favorite).
• Samples George Michael. Interpreted as a layered “mafia boss”/protector track—Swift as pop’s new “daddy.”
• Laced with thinly veiled references to Olivia Rodrigo, industry power, dominance, with humour and camp.
• Notable quote: “You feel so pleased for her that she has found her power…She’s also like a mafia boss. Why not be both?”—Jen (45:56)
• Placement: Both hen and wedding, with explicit lyrics for the former and radio edit for the latter.

5. Eldest Daughter [47:03–57:29]

• The “skip” of the album. A track 5 that's notably lighter in emotional weight than previous Swift efforts.
  “She’s really kind of digging around, turning up the sofa cushions, like, ‘you know what sucks? Being the eldest daughter, sort of’.”—Jen (49:12)
• Placement: A “crying moment” for the hen do.

6. Ruin the Friendship [60:32–63:24]

• Country-western in flavor, about regretting not kissing someone before they're gone.
• Placement: Wedding, serving both as a romantic and bittersweet reunion track, for all those “what might have been” moments.

7. Actually Romantic [65:09–74:24]

• Seen as a tongue-in-cheek clapback to Charli XCX’s “Sympathy is a Knife,” but also a wider answer to critics, Substack girlies, and distant “haters.”
• “It’s so, like, sweetly, saccharinely sympathetic, whilst also absolutely with a stiletto in it, you know?”—Jen (67:50)
• Placement: Classic hen, late night, after too many drinks, dissecting beef with friends.

8. Wish List [75:28–79:53]

• Critiqued as inauthentic (“don’t lie to my face”), with a “richest woman in the world” lampooning materialism.
• Fun but not meaningful—a “playlist” rather than a personal anthem.

9. Wood [82:04–91:32]

• The infamous “dick song” about Travis Kelce. Noted for explicitness and joy.
• “She has never been explicit about male genitalia in her career before… Now she’s just gone with ‘my boyfriend has a massive cock, and I love it.’”—Jen (83:00)
• Hilariously dissected possible trajectories of Taylor’s recent sex life.
• Placement: The “biggest hen song,” but also wedding-appropriate in the radio edit (with “key that opened my skies”).

10. Cancelled [92:22–97:17]

• About scandal, public criticism, and internet drama. Irreverent, protective vibe—positioned as a banger for pulling women out of drunken chats and back onto the dance floor.
• “Tone deaf and hot” instantly requested as merch.

11. Honey [98:01–102:10]

• Slow, sweet, “Lover Part Two.” Noted for clarinet solo and suitability for slow-dancing couples at a wedding.

12. Life of a Showgirl [102:19–106:46]

• Slightly cringey mid-century pastiche, but fitting as an album and party closer.
• Paralleled humorously to The Emperor’s New Groove’s Yzma as “old showgirl energy.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the universal wedding/hen theme:
  “Is it a wedding? Is it a hen? Is it both? …This is the only lens worth looking at this album.”—Jen (56:34)
• On Taylor referencing Elizabeth Taylor:
  “It’s a little bit Taylor. It’s Elizabeth Taylor. Elizabeth. Little bit. It’s crazy. Once it’s in your head, you’re like, fuck.”—Jen (27:36)
• On the cinematic experience:
  “We paid to watch boomerangs and Zoom calls. And do you know what? I’d pay it again.”—Caroline (11:32)
• On Taylor’s power move:
  “You feel so pleased for her that she’s found her power…She’s also like a mafia boss. Why not be both?”—Jen (45:56)
• On “Wood” (the explicit song):
  “She’s never just gone with ‘my boyfriend has a massive cock, and I love it’... I’m so pleased for her. A hard rock is coming her way. It would be like Christmas and birthday all in one.”—Jen (88:00)
• On pop for the masses:
  “Pop is for babies, and we have to remember that.”—Caroline (36:27)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening / Weekend Recap: 01:05–06:07
• The Wedding/Hen Theory: 06:07–10:01
• Cinematic “Movie” Event: 10:27–12:43
• Track discussions:
  • Fate of Ophelia: 12:54–24:48
  • Elizabeth Taylor: 24:54–33:00
  • Opalite: 33:00–37:16
  • Father Figure: 37:33–46:34
  • Eldest Daughter: 47:03–57:29
  • Actually Romantic: 65:09–74:24
  • Wood: 82:04–91:32
  • Life of a Showgirl (album closer): 102:19–106:46

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Overarching Takeaways

• "Life of a Showgirl" is not Swift’s deepest or most complex album, but it succeeds as the pop soundtrack women actually need—one to unite, comfort, and delight at hen dos and weddings everywhere.
• The album is camp, broad, self-aware, and purposely not for headphone “serious” analysis—but for the real dance floor.
• The hosts’ irreverent, affectionate, and feeling-first approach (“We don’t know the most, we feel the most”) invites listeners to drop pretension and join the party.
• “Sometimes a song is just a song. Sometimes an album is just an album. Another showgirl is just a showgirl.”—Jen (108:18)

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For New Listeners

If you haven’t listened to “Life of a Showgirl” or this episode, you’ll come away understanding:

• The role of pop music in female ritual and friendship
• Why Taylor Swift remains a genius of universality and camp
• The importance of context—these are not lonely headphone tracks, but songs built for communal joy and memory-making

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Final Quote

"Thank you for coming… sometimes an album is just an album. Another showgirl is just a showgirl." —Jen (108:18)

Transcript

[A]

Did I talk too much?

[B]

Can I just let it go? I wish I would stop thinking so much.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

With everyday struggles like anxiety or managing tough emotions.

[B]

Visit betterhelp.com randompodcast for 10% off your first month of online therapy and let life feel better. Hello and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where we pledge allegiance to your hands, your team and your vibes. My name is Karen o' Donohue and I'm sweeter than a peach and softer than a kitten. And she's got a fat ass and a baby face. It's Jen County.

[A]

Hello.

[B]

Oh, we're back. Oh, we're back. We're so back. Our dear friend Taylor, she's back. And we're back.

[A]

We're back.

[B]

That feels so good, doesn't it? Doesn't it? We've been having the best weekend of our lives.

[A]

Oh, it's been phenomenal.

[B]

I've had more fun this weekend than I have had in six months. I think. It's been so good.

[A]

It's been so good. And we've got Taylor to thank for it. Yeah, it's a true experience.

[B]

Let's take us back now. Today is Sunday.

[A]

Tis Sunday night.

[B]

I'm gonna put this out tomorrow, which is Monday out of an off scheduled release for you. I know. For those of you who think that means that there will also be a new episode on Thursday. There won't be because I'm not Taylor Swift and I have other things going on. It's just this podcast this week everyone wanted. I was basically getting bomb threats in my DMs that if we didn't put an episode out by Life of a Showgirl that I might as well never podcast again.

[A]

Usually when we do our podcast, we let it percolate quite a while.

[B]

Yeah, so when we did, I mean, we've only been doing this for a.

[A]

Little while, so we've only done two albums. Plus the movie, of course. Yes.

[B]

I remember when we did our Midnights podcast. It was like months and months later. You had developed this theory about it.

[A]

And it was just after Taylor and Joe Alwyn broke up. And that was when I was like, the master key that unlocks Midnight.

[B]

Here it is.

[A]

Let's discuss it.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

That was like six months later.

[B]

Six months later. And then when Tortured Poets came out, we were listening to it while interrailing for like two months, like a month while we were traveling and then another month we got home and then we did an episode about this. And this came out on Friday.

[A]

It did.

[B]

My body just woke itself up at 6:30am I think because she knew. She's like, I had an office day that day. I was like, back to back meetings all day. I was like, girl, you're gonna have to get all your listening done before 9am and you did. And I did.

[A]

And I woke up. I don't work on Fridays. I woke up to just like my little essay from Caroline.

[B]

Yeah, you woke up to about 15 messages from me reviewing what I thought of all the songs. And I think if we had just done that all weekend, like, listened to the album in our headphones and been like, I don't know, it's kind of disappointing. And I don't understand why she's invoking Elizabeth Taylor. And I don't. I don't. The Hamlet references are very shallow. And the lyricism, it's not her best. And that Charli Xex, I'm not sure, but.

[A]

But we wouldn't do that.

[B]

It's basically every take on the Internet right now is people doing the sort of damning with feigned praise or actively pretending like she's committed a war crime by sort of putting out a fairly shallow bubblegum pop record after she put out a three hour sort of her bleeding freely in the bathtub.

[A]

No, we have experienced, as it should be experienced, which is to say, first, solo with headphones. Second, maybe put it on the speakers, dance around the house a bit. Get a taste of what it's all about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Third, we took it to the streets.

[B]

We took it to the streets.

[A]

Or rather someone else took it to the streets. And we attended.

[B]

Yeah, we went to Swiftageddon.

[A]

We loved Swiftergeddon. We've talked about it before.

[B]

Hosted by our friend Alex at the Queen of Hoxton. So it's Shoreditch on a Saturday night. It's London, it's coming into winter. All the girlies are smoking fags outside and they're already singing Opalite. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Right. All the straight men are there and they have walked into something they were not expecting.

[B]

Yeah. And it's brilliant because we're stronger than them and there's more of us than.

[A]

Them, and we're united on this.

[B]

So already we're walking into the club. We've had two old fashions and a cocktail bar nearby. The vibes are fucking high.

[A]

They are lit.

[B]

And then we get in there and then I think we Got in at about half 10, we left at 2. And we had all the Taylor Swift songs that we love. And we also had all the life of a showgirl songs. And we understood why we were however many fucking whiskey sodas deep. They were like, oh, this is incredible.

[A]

We had then the other crucial part of a Taylor Swift listen, the really drunk taxi ride for nearly one hour.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

So our poor taxi driver. That man must have thought we were in a cult.

[B]

It was nuts. The insights that were coming out just like he's playing Magic FM or whatever. We just have your phone on.

[A]

Max Elizabeth Taylor texting our notes to the group chat we have with your husband who's in bed. It's like, why are they sending me these bizarre fragments of sentences?

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we wouldn't lose them.

[B]

So we have the club night, we have the club night, we have the taxi home. And then today we get up, we haul our hungover asses to the Everyman cinema and Crystal Palace. It is you and me, and I would say a smattering of really earnest and very shy 13 year old girls with their moms, some of them still wearing their, like, wearing their pajamas.

[A]

They were so young and so earnest.

[B]

It was so, like pajama party energy. But they were so shy. And we were the only ones singing because crucially, we know all the words already.

[A]

Single word. And that was. Well, that ended one hour ago.

[B]

Yeah. And now we're on my couch with my dog talking.

[A]

This is how fresh, fresh we are.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is the freshest potatoes that you can.

[B]

These are fresh potatoes.

[A]

These are fresh, fresh fries.

[B]

And in between the Friday solo listen, the Saturday night dance party, the early morning, early hours of Sunday morning cab ride and Sunday afternoon tray, we have decided what this album is.

[A]

We have the concept.

[B]

We have the concept.

[A]

We've cracked the code. We've really gone for it. We've really been like that big machine.

[B]

And I know what you guys have been thinking. You've been thinking, I mean, something my friend Tash said to me and I thought it was a very like stable critique. She was like, this whole album needs a rocket up its art. It's so dull, it feels like 90s pop. It feels like kind of where, where is it? What is it? And like also we were promised the life of a showgirl. We were promised like rhinestone and sweat and what it's like to be the most famous girl in the world. And what it's like. And then we're getting these like kind of milquetoast middle of the road. Slightly Jackson 5 sounding numbers. Some of it kind of sounds like Christmas music from a rom com.

[A]

She's not vocally stretching herself. She'll probably lie down and sing much of it.

[B]

Yeah. And then we got it. We got the thesis, we got the concept.

[A]

We've got it.

[B]

May I?

[A]

You may indeed. You must.

[B]

Something Taylor has said several times in the upcoming, the sort of wait for this release is that she wanted it to be bops. She wanted to be dance floor. What we have come to understand by the term dance floor over the last two calendar years have been like Charli XCX, which is like 365. Party Girl, Apple Dance. Being grungy, being sludgy. Cigarettes, cocaine, all that vibe. Right.

[A]

And knickers are full of drugs. She doesn't.

[B]

She does not mean that at all.

[A]

No, that's not the kind of dance floor she's talking about.

[B]

Taylor is not referring to that dance floor.

[A]

She's not talking about Chapel Roan's dance floor either.

[B]

No, she's not. Not talking about Queer Joy.

[A]

And she's not talking about even Sabrina Carpenter's dance floor.

[B]

No, she's not talking about that either.

[A]

But she's talking about a very famous couple of dance floors.

[B]

She's talking about a very specific dance floor. And the dance floor she is writing to with Life of a Showgirl is the dance floor of a wedding party. All of this music, every single song on Life of a Showgirl can either be played at a wedding or at a hen do.

[A]

And we will be some of both.

[B]

Some both. Some both, but with different inferences, you know what I mean? And the most useful way to think about this album is that she has written some of the most beautiful love songs out there about Jo Elwyn. She's written Lover, she's written Delicate, she's written Dress. And now she's met the man she's gonna marry. And she has to really quickly write some songs that she can dance to at their wedding.

[A]

And her own hen do.

[B]

And her own hen do.

[A]

And like, everyone complains. Apart from Swiftageddon, most people are like, oh, you can't dance to Taylor Swift. Apart from Shake it off, which is actually really hard to dance.

[B]

Yeah, it's a terrible song.

[A]

She's done it, though. Finally. You have to. You hear this in the club. It's transformed. You hear it in the Queen of Hoxton.

[B]

It is music to dance to. With a flower girl, it's music to dance to. With an auntie. It's music. Yeah, because, like, the kind of Dancing that you dance to with Taylor Swift. This kind of Taylor Swift is like. Because there's a kind of dancing that you do when you're moving and grooving by yourself with your close friends in the club and like you kind of lost in the music and you're feeling yourself, but you're feeling your pals as well because you're so intimate with them. And you can sort of be in your bodies and it's one and it's magical. But there's also that other kind of dancing that you do with women who you may not know that well or simply in a mixed generational setting where the dancing consists of pointing and miming. And this is pointing and miming music.

[A]

Having a lovely time.

[B]

It's making a little phone symbol with your hands.

[A]

Oh. It's knocking on things.

[B]

It's knock, knock on wood. Literally. We were standing in Swiftergeddon and people already had a dance for knock and wood for wood rather. And they were doing little imaginary knocks on woods. They were doing little Motown shuffles. I was like, I get it.

[A]

This is the thing people have forgotten that the dance floor isn't just where you go to be cool lovers. It's also where you go to have a nice time with people you've already had sex with so many times. And also your friends and family.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like it's that dance floor. There is nothing sexy about this, this album in many ways. And that's as it should be.

[B]

Yeah. It is music for an absolutely middle of the road wedding and an absolutely standard hen do.

[A]

And the thing is, it will make both his events slap.

[B]

Yeah. It will elevate both those events.

[A]

I cannot wait to attend weddings where this album is being played.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Pretty much on repeat the whole way through.

[B]

Shall we go right into the track listing?

[A]

I think. Oh, can we just take a moment for the fact that. How kind of her to give us mere 12 tracks.

[B]

12 tracks. Now we know all the words to.

[A]

Now like we know all the words. It's been so quick. Like my first listen when we got to the final track. I'm so used to there being like feature length film albums. I wander around my house with it on and I was just like, God, weird for her to put this in the middle. It sounds like the end of the album.

[B]

Okay. Track one, which is. Is going to be the lead single. We found out from.

[A]

We have found out.

[B]

So the movie event for those of you who missed it, which I imagine is a lot of you. It's wild that she got 20 quid each out of us for that. It is mental that we spend £40 in an everyman cinema to see this. Because what it is, it's. You get into that. She. You open on. It's Taylor just speaking to camera, being like, hey, thanks for coming. Really excited to share this with you. Amazing.

[A]

There's a Target ad. We don't even have Target yet.

[B]

There's an ad for Target. It's like, could you not even, like.

[A]

Did you not even think to cut that bit out for your non American.

[B]

Audience or localize it somehow? Do you know what I mean? I'm sure she has some similar deal with a similar UK retailer.

[A]

Right. And then it's just. It's a combination of sort of her talking to camera, which is actually very charming because she's very charming. And then one music video which you see behind the scenes and you see the music video twice and then just the lyrics videos, which is like, Taylor Swift has got really into taking a bit of footage, putting it through the kaleidoscope setting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On her. Whatever video editing software she uses and then making a boomerang. So it just.

[B]

We paid to watch boomerangs and zoom calls.

[A]

And do you know what? I'd pay it again.

[B]

I pay it again. We had a great time.

[A]

Zoom call. Oh, my God. I think that moment we were sat two minutes into the film call happening. And it's a zoom call that I feel like I've been on, where it's just one person has got a big idea and everyone else's job is to make them think it's a good idea.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's a guy. And you know what? Maybe it is just being like, wow. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Fire. Yeah. And I was like, I am watching someone else's terrible day at work.

[B]

It's fascinating. I think Taylor's probably a great person to work with. I think she's a keen collaborator and I think she's got everyone's comfort in mind. And I think she's probably great on set. But it's also. It's like. What's hilarious is watching this behind the scenes sampler thing where it's like looking at people find new ways to agree with Taylor that don't sound repetitive because they're like, yeah, yeah. Cool tea. Yeah. Amazing tea. Wow. Fire. Cool.

[A]

Fish victim.

[B]

Fish victim.

[A]

And it's very sweet. Like, it's very sweet. It's very earnest and very, like, pleasant working environment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I can also just feel like. I can feel how much my cheek Muscles would be hurting by the end of a zoom call. You know, they'd be atrophied from just like the grinning I'd have to do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because she's really enthusiastic. She shows energy before you have to match it. Yeah.

[A]

I loved it. I loved every moment of that cinematic experience.

[B]

Faithful, track one.

[A]

You hated this track.

[B]

When we first spoke, I remember texting you. Just why you can't trust anybody who's only reviewed this album through the medium of folding laundry with their headphones on.

[A]

Nope, nope, nope.

[B]

They are Taylor Swift albums that you can fold laundries with your headphones on and cry and think about your life and really think about her life and the poetry of all that. And that's what Tortured Poets is for. That's what folklore is for. That's what Evermore is for.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This is not that.

[A]

No.

[B]

And I was like, it's a skip for me.

[A]

But I have to say, I listened to it the first time I listened to it and I was like, yeah, it's not really vibing for me. And then later that day, I text you and I said, I'm sorry to break this to you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I fear it is, in fact a banger. You just have to have to hear it the right way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not headphones.

[B]

Not headphones. It's a dance floor song. It's a cheesy white lady dance floor song, but it's still a dance floor song.

[A]

And I mean, I loved hearing her talk about this because it was so kind of unhinged.

[B]

Go on.

[A]

And also, I mean, I've not been allergic to this because I spent this morning being hungover. But apparently some portions of the Internet are up in arms about the fact that she's referring to Shakespeare and doing it. Is it wrong?

[B]

What's this thing? This is like, Taylor's a nerd. She self identifies as English teacher. That's her gender.

[A]

Still, we us in this album.

[B]

And obviously, because everybody who loves Taylor is a nerd also, they like to sort of be like, oh, you know, she doesn't understand her own references. And we've said that ourselves. She often invokes literary references that it doesn't really feel like she totally grasps. Like, it's like. Like Nancy Mitford, you know, she's the bolter and all that kind of stuff. And she's a big fan of digging out the Great Gatsby. It's always like quite obvious, broad references kind of employed in a strange way.

[A]

But I think she employs what's quite interesting. She employs the references at the level at which they exist in popular culture, even when they've become divorced from their original, like their genesis point. So with Ophelia, the fate of Ophelia, you're not going to learn anything about the play Hamlet from the song, the fave Ophelia. That is not the aim, nor indeed should you. If you wish to learn about it, you could read it. Yes, she's not here to teach us.

[B]

About what happens in Hamlet.

[A]

There's a lot of stuff out there about what happens in Hamlet and why. And how. And why Ophelia dies and how she dies. But the point of Ophelia in popular culture, if you say Ophelia, people immediately think of the painting of drowned Ophelia, and they think this is about a woman who is spurned in love, goes mad and dies. Like, that's. Is that true? Is that technically the right reading of it?

[B]

Is that true?

[A]

Who cares?

[B]

Yeah, who cares?

[A]

But she's playing with, like, the pop culture level reference. So the same with Great Gatsby's. Same with the Great Gatsby, same with Mitford. She just takes kind of, like, what most people would be like, vaguely. Oh, I think it's kind of about that.

[B]

Yeah, she takes that totally. Because, like, the thing we said earlier on of, like, this is about life, the Showgirl. Like, where's the Showgirl? I think the elements with which this is a quote unquote, Showgirl album is that it's unbelievably broad.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's.

[B]

It's interested in, like, broad sketches. Like, you know that girl you heard about from that play once, like. Yeah, like, sad. You're sad.

[A]

She's sad. She died. Tragic, tragic song.

[B]

It's brought its camp. It's so gambit.

[A]

It's pg.

[B]

It's for everyone.

[A]

It is. Particularly when they do the PG version, which I'm sure we will talk about.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yeah, I think with this one, she's just kind of decided that's what she wants to talk about. And when you hear her speaking about it, I think one of my most favorite moments of her talking about it in this film where she goes like, you know, I just love Shakespeare. I love him. And you're like, okay, cool. Like, no one was saying you didn't. And she's like. And I actually just like, I really care about these characters so much that when they die, I actually feel really sad. And I was like, I think that's. I do think that's the point.

[B]

But that's so Me of me.

[A]

I think that is the point of tragedy, is that when the characters die, you're like. That does seem bad. Which makes me think maybe she wouldn't have been a great English teacher. But it's so sweet that she's just like. Terminal uniqueness.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Terminal uniqueness.

[B]

Terminal uniqueness.

[A]

I feel so sad when I read or see a Shakespearean tragedy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you're just like, bless you. Bless you. And she makes it into such a bop.

[B]

It's such a fucking bob.

[A]

Do you know what's weird about it.

[B]

Is it's got so good.

[A]

A few great lyrics in it that are completely unconnected. So what are they? Do you know what? It's a song that I. Oh, yeah. The land, the sea, the sky I don't know.

[B]

I swear allegiance to the land, the sea there's so many good bits. It's like.

[A]

But I couldn't tell you. I think what's probably disappointing as a lead single is mostly with Taylor Swift. You're like, she's a very, very good lyricist. And you're like, ah. That immediately sticks in my mind. Fate of Ophelia, which is her lead single, the only one that has a music video so far. None of them. It's just called the Fate of Ophelia. And it's a bop.

[B]

It's a bop. And I think it's like, it really does ground you situationally in where you are in the career, what was happening last? Which is like, okay, the last time you saw me put out new music, it was really like, depressing, heartbroken, tragic malady about the guy who fucked me over. And she says in sort of little mini interview, she's like, oh, when we think of Ophelia, we think of how she was driven crazy by Hamlet. Yeah. I was like, and who could this be? And you're like.

[A]

And then she's.

[B]

Is Hamlet in the room with us right now or is he touring with the 1975?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. And she's like, like, yeah. And, you know, I think about this sort of, oh, I could have stayed sort of drowning, but.

[A]

And suicidally ideating.

[B]

I was suicidally ideating. You heard it. You all spend money on the double alb of that. Right?

[A]

It's a very, very camp and very kind of glittery way to be like, you know how I was really depressed? Not anymore.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm actually fine now.

[B]

I kind of love it. It's so funny. It is like when you have, you know, you have that friend who you only calls you up when she's having a bad time, and she comes and stays on your couch. What are we going to do? And then you, like, worry about her for months, and you're like, God, she's not responding to my text. And the next time you see her, you're like, dude, you're right. And she's like, I'm great, actually. And you're like, so I worried about you for nothing.

[A]

That is what this song is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I'm fine now. I was like, yeah, but should you not be looking at the underlying stuff of what made you so sad? She's like, no, I got a new boyfriend now.

[A]

Everything's perfect.

[B]

Everything's fine. What are you on about? Why would I be sad? I just sounds like a you thing. Sounds like you want me to be sad.

[A]

Sounds like you're triggered.

[B]

It's so interesting reading this album while simultaneously Elizabeth Gilbert is got.

[A]

There's a lot.

[B]

There's a lot. There's a lot of similarities. I know because they both grew up on Christmas tree farms and they're both blonde ladies who are famous for their relationship between, you know, memoir and fiction and, like, people being obsessed with them and modeling their lives on them and all this stuff. I no longer think that they are separate individuals. I actually think that we have some kind of time space continuum has ruptured. And Elizabeth Gilbert is Taylor Swift.

[A]

Just a different version of her.

[B]

Older in a different life. Yeah. In the future.

[A]

Yeah. It's a kind of that thing.

[B]

And she's come back to write this book to give to Taylor Swift, to be like, Taylor, I know you think that. It's just like, if you find the right guy, everything's gonna be fine. But it's sex and love addiction, baby, and you need to get this under control before you accidentally, like, kill your. Try and kill your girlfriend. I'm Liz Gilbert, and I'm here to tell you what's there for you in.

[A]

The Terminator of Taylor Swift. Jesus.

[B]

Liz Gilbert is Taylor Swift's Terminator. Oh, my God.

[A]

Just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yet, even though Liz Gilbert is Taylor Swift's Terminator, she too is still trapped in the endless cycle of like, of huge enlightenment where she's like, I have discovered a central truth about myself that has illuminated my life, and finally I understand everything and I will share it with you. And then a few years later, it's like, I was wrong, but don't worry.

[B]

Because I have a new epiphany that's even better.

[A]

Epiphany upon epiphany upon epiphany. And so it shall go forever and ever. Cause it's.

[B]

Because so much of this album is like, Taylor being like, it's never been like this before. It's like, girl, we've heard it be like this before. You wrote beautifully about it being like this before.

[A]

You wrote, some would say, even better songs about when you were in love the last time. But you fully. If you listen to this album, you didn't know anything about Taylor Swift. If you had just appeared from Mars, you'd be like, God, this woman has never been in love before in her whole life. And it's so nice that she has finally found a boyfriend, because no one has ever.

[B]

She's finally found someone who understands her just like that other guy she found who was the guy who understood her.

[A]

But then again, being at Swift and Aeddon and hearing Alex DJing masterfully, she just kind of strung together loads of songs to be like, here's a little pocket of songs about all the times she was in love with Joe Irwin. And here's a little few about her and Matty Healy. And here's some about Harry Styles. And you're just like, oh, no.

[B]

Yeah, this is.

[A]

We have heard this one before. And I think in the same way, Travis, he's getting songs, but she's not angsty about it.

[B]

She's also rushing those songs out so she can play at a wedding.

[A]

I mean, that wedding. Wow, wow, wow, wow.

[B]

Like, if you've already written Lover, you would think that you would want to have that, because that's such a wedding song now.

[A]

Yeah, but you can't have that.

[B]

You can't have that. You're gonna have to have Honey instead. Yeah, and she will, because those are the same songs.

[A]

And there's a clarinet solo in Honey, so it's gonna work really nicely with a little band.

[B]

Oh, my God, it is such a way. Okay, we'll get to it.

[A]

We will. We will. But I think what's really important when we go back to our thesis of the hen slash wedding, is at what point is it this one a hen song, a wedding song, or both? And when is it played, and who's dancing? Okay, I think it's probably playing sort of two thirds of the way through the hen. You know, like, you started off, people.

[B]

Are starting to get loose.

[A]

They're getting loose.

[B]

We've done the crafts. We've done the, like, bit. Bit of shots. And now we're like. It's like the kind of the shoulders are coming down from the ears. Do you know what I mean? We're stuck. We're not worrying so much whether she's having a good time because we're. We've done a few bits, we've made a few memories that are photographable. And now we're on the dance floor a bit and like, oh, yeah, we're starting to groove. It's starting to feel like a real night out, not just like kind of a weird ritual.

[A]

I think what's also crucial about this song is that it's happening at a time where the bride has had some kind of slightly teary, emotional thing about how she never thought she'd find the love of her life. And she's making a little speech thanking all the girls for, like, being there for her through all the breakups. And, you know, particularly that last one. Cause it was really bad and she never thought she'd love again. And so it's kind of, yeah, give.

[B]

Her a little speech at dinner.

[A]

Yeah. And everyone's kind of got that in their minds when they're singing along to vaguely.

[B]

And every girl at that table is like, I remember all those boyfriends.

[A]

I remember all those bad boyfriends.

[B]

I'm really glad, like, maybe I mixed about the husband she's marrying, but I'm really glad she's happy.

[A]

He seems like a safe pair of hands.

[B]

One of the nicest moments you can have on a girls night out hen night is like when you know your friends so well. I've had this with you a few times, like when we've been to gigs or nights out or whatever. You know your friends so, so intimately well. And you can see she's getting a little bit emotional at the dance floor song. And you can teleport your way into her brain because you know exactly what she's thinking about. Yes.

[A]

And you do.

[B]

We had that last night. We had a big cry last night.

[A]

It was so good. It was so necessary. It was also outside McDonald's.

[B]

I remember I was like hugging you and crying on the dance floor. And I knew.

[A]

Oh, that one too. Two cries.

[B]

Two cries. Two cries. 2 cries. We were like. We were singing and crying to you're on your own, kid. And I remember I was holding you so tight and I was crying so much. And you were crying so much. And I knew exactly what you were crying about. And you knew exactly what I was crying about. And then I started crying more because I knew what you were crying about.

[A]

And at various points in the evening, people who recognize you from your podcast are trying to talk to you, and you're just like, masterpiece.

[B]

So Funny. We were so wrecked. Like it was the wrong night to come up and say hi to.

[A]

So sorry. Hello. We were not. We were deep in our feels so funny. But yeah, I think this is why this song means Hen. It could be played at the wedding, but I think actually because, particularly because of the suicidal ideation, it hits better at hen.

[B]

It's hen, you're right.

[A]

But like, if it's a slightly melancholy wedding, yeah, you could play at the wedding. But I think it's mainly hen.

[B]

Track two, Elizabeth Taylor. This is hen.

[A]

This is hen. Hen, hence all the way. It's like it was almost a starting track for hen.

[B]

It's actually one of my favorite songs she's done in fucking years.

[A]

You pulled it from the second.

[B]

Love it from the second. I was like, this is the best. This is the best. When that. I heard that fucking beat kick when it drops. So I cried my eyes violet.

[A]

Elizabeth Taylor.

[B]

And it's so good. It's so perfect. It's not the first time she's invoked Elizabeth Taylor.

[A]

No. And we will return to that.

[B]

We'll return to that in one second. And like, obviously, you know, again, as you said at the beginning, she's not interested in getting very nuanced about these. Again, she's. It's a Showgirl album. She's keeping it broad.

[A]

She's keeping.

[B]

It's for a general audience and that's what showgirls do. Showgirls are not performing for their one fan at the back of the room. They are performing for the 11 year old, the 66 year old. You know, I mean, everybody. It is broad. And so the Elizabeth Taylor reference is obviously because Elizabeth Taylor had six husbands and eight husbands. Eight husband.

[A]

I mean, seven husbands, but eight marriages.

[B]

Yes, Richard. Written twice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Very well said. Thank you.

[A]

Thanks.

[B]

I googled it. It's the thing of like. Oh, I mean, it's very obvious. It's like, what's it like to be debuting another love when. And saying I love him more than anyone. And everyone's like, well, is it gonna be forever? Because we all are. Yeah, that's right. Great.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a bop.

[A]

It's a bop.

[B]

But only in the cab home where I'm pretty sure the cab driver thought we were in a cult.

[A]

So I think we were discussing the fact that this is not the first Elizabeth Taylor reference she's made. Yeah, the other.

[B]

The other one was.

[A]

Is in Endgame, Burton two, this Taylor.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's kind of done a little bit of like, like the wildest dreams Video.

[B]

And it's like. It's like, great. Your name is Taylor.

[A]

My name is Taylor. And we were like, isn't it? We were like, does. Obviously, Elizabeth Taylor was a famous, beautiful woman who was kind of in the eye of the world. And her public Persona kind of became her almost more than her. Whoever her private self was. Certain parallels there. But I'm like, I'm sorry. I think the main reason she's obsessed with Elizabeth Taylor is that her surname is Taylor and it's a chance to say her own name. And then Caroline, you said a thing that was so smart.

[B]

We started screaming.

[A]

This poor cab driver.

[B]

I know. Okay.

[A]

I don't want to.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

I'm not looking at my brain this morning. Okay, Jerry. Refuse.

[B]

So, okay, she says. She opens the song Elizabeth Taylor. Is it gonna be forever? And then it's like we have the name over and over again. And if you listen to sort of sounds like she's saying it's a little bit Taylor. She's not saying that.

[A]

She's not saying that. But it's so there.

[B]

It's so there.

[A]

So there's the echo beneath it. Like Lady Gaga saying, fuck her face.

[B]

It's a little bit Taylor. It's Elizabeth Taylor. Elizabeth. Little bit. It's crazy. Once it's in your head, you're like, fuck.

[A]

It's a little bit Taylor.

[B]

It's her.

[A]

It's her iffy C K me. Exactly. It's that kind of. It's the hidden. I fully expect her, when she finally tours this, to say that when singing it at least one time.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Or throw the mic out to the audience. It's a little bit Taylor.

[A]

Like, because it just scans too well. Cry at my eyes violet A little bit Taylor. Like, that's just. It's so self referential. She knows what people think of her.

[B]

And the way she's breaking up the syllables as she says Elizabeth Taylor. It's like. It's driving me mad. I'm like, I feel crazy.

[A]

I think you're so.

[B]

I am. That meme with the red string across the wall with this, like.

[A]

It makes so much sense. It makes sense of why she's invoking Elizabeth Taylor other than kind of like, oh, yes. Famous, iconic. It's just. It is what it is. And she's so aware of her perception as someone who kind of like cries wolf about every man she meets.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And is always sad about a new boy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It is a little bit tender to be crying. Your eyes violet.

[B]

It's so good. Because it's like you have lyophilia first, which is like, oh, I was really sad, and then this guy rescued me. And then, like, Elizabeth Gilbert came from the future to try and warn me, but I didn't listen. And then she's like, oh, but I sort of do know I do this all the time. Yeah, I do sort of know I do this all the time.

[A]

As they used to say it. Me.

[B]

Yeah, that's her. Like, those two songs together is so clever.

[A]

It's so good. I do almost wonder if. And obviously Violet. Elizabeth Taylor's eyes were famously violet, but I kind of wonder if she started by writing it. I cry my eyes violet a little bit, Taylor. And then was like, no, it's too much. It's too on the nose. And then she switched it out.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

I think we'd like to be the.

[B]

Only ones who've stumbled on this. And that's why you gotta listen to songs. Drunken Cabs.

[A]

You've gotta do it.

[B]

It's not enough to be on the headphones.

[A]

It's not. You're not gonna hear it in anyone.

[B]

Who has a take on this album. That is just a headphone take. Yours, it's half a take. I'm sorry.

[A]

You know, we don't know. And I think, again, you need to. You hear this in the club. You hear people screaming along to it. It's so easy for it to be a little bit. Taylor.

[B]

Yeah, I'm very proud of us for that.

[A]

I'm so proud of that, too. Other great lyrics in this. Be My NY When Hollywood Hates Me.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Love that.

[B]

Didn't realize that until Hollywood Hates Me.

[A]

Until we saw it in the lyric video that we paid £20 to to see. And I was like, are there any other great lyrics in this?

[B]

Sorry. I'm sorry.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

I'm still on Be My NY When Hollywood Hates Me. Because, okay, this album is getting a lot of pushback for the amount of dumb lyrics that are in it. And there are loads of dumb lyrics. And I think they're sort of intentionally dumb. They're outsized, they're camp, they're broad, they're general. But, like, I think the subtlety. That's so clever. Be My NY When Hollywood Hates Me.

[A]

You're only as hot as your last hit, baby.

[B]

Because there's such a long tradition of, like, famous people being in one and going to the other kind of thing. Like Marilyn Monroe, like, she was in Hollywood for years, and then she went to New York and became, like, a Famous. Like, she became, like, very serious. Like the Stanislaus, whatever. You know I'm talking about.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, black polo neck. I'm a serious actor now. It's like. Or you're, like, in New York for a while, and then you go to LA to, like, have a huge house on the hills and hide there. It's like if one has rejected you, you hide in the other one. And it's so smart. It's such a. Like, clever. I love it. I love it so much.

[A]

She knows herself so well. She knows herself. She knows what people think of her and she plays with it.

[B]

Yeah. I love her. I remember thinking, on Friday, sure, we'll do an episode. But I'm not sure there's much to say.

[A]

Oh, there's too much to say.

[B]

There's too much to say.

[A]

Whereabouts and Hender is this being played? This is just. This is, like, fully, like, we're in the thick of it. We're in the deep dance.

[B]

Yeah. I think this could honestly follow Ophelia's floor. It's like, okay, we've loosened up the shoulders, now it's time to start pointing. Now we're screaming and gesturing our rings into the air as well. The married girls of the hen are gesturing the rings into the air.

[A]

Yes, they are.

[B]

Yeah. And, like, is it gonna be forever? Showing up your ring finger? And then, like, everyone grabs the bride's engagement ring hand and it's just like, look, it's gonna be forever. Ah, Kayleigh, you legend. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

Oh, my God. And if Kayleigh's going on honeymoon in Portofino, so much the better.

[B]

So much the better.

[A]

Or if she got engaged there. Wow.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

I love being Kayleigh's friend.

[A]

Oh, my God. Invite me to. If you are doing a hando with this album, invite me. I'll come.

[B]

Is there anything else in. There's a Terry, I think that's, like, my main take. It's a Handu song.

[A]

It's a banger.

[B]

It's a banger. And it's got a clever little joke if you want to hear it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is my favorite kind of Cavill joke.

[A]

It's so good. It's an Easter egg.

[B]

It is an Easter egg. I am convinced we have organically discovered this Easter egg.

[A]

I think we have.

[B]

Okay, great. Track three is Opalite.

[A]

You do not fuck with Opalite.

[B]

I do.

[A]

You don't?

[B]

I don't.

[A]

But you know who will.

[B]

Children on a wedding dance floor.

[A]

Children on a wedding dance floor. Grandmothers on a Wedding dance floor. Awkward uncles on a wedding dance floor.

[B]

People who don't know anything about Taylor Swift but can sure go, what?

[A]

It's perfect. What else?

[B]

It is a song for babies dancing with their granddads.

[A]

And it's just like it's going to bring everyone together on the. On the dance floor.

[B]

Yeah. I can just see a three year old girl in a tutu spinning around to this song.

[A]

Like when you know, you know, I mean, whose parents haven't said that to them about their boyfriend? Your boyfriend, my friends say all the time.

[B]

And that's why it's so, so wedding as well. The when you know, you know, it's like we all point to the bride and groom.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Again, it's the style of dancing that is mostly pointing and miming.

[A]

Right. You had to make your own sunshine. It's just like it mentions my brother. Like you can point at your brother, you're getting married. I had a bad habit. My brother used to call it eating up the trash. You point and he's like, whoa. I did call it that. He didn't, but Taylor Swift's brother did. Oh, you're gonna have such a nice time. But what's also great about this song is it's not just about the bride, it's also about the groom. Because the verse is all about how she used to eat out of the trash. But then there's the groom who felt alone because you were in it for real, but she was on her phone and you were just a pose.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's a chance to do the pointing at the groom. The second verse.

[B]

And also you gotta mime the phone.

[A]

You gotta mime the phone.

[B]

You gotta use your thumb and your little finger to make a little phone with your hand.

[A]

I just. You're gonna do it and just there's then the pre chorus of. And all of the foes and all of the friends. Brackets. Ha ha. You can point at all your family members.

[B]

So many separate people to point at. This is like.

[A]

It's fully. It's like one of those kind of ensemble dance routines, you know, it's like a flash mob could do this and you'd have them. So flash mob at a wedding. But then you have actually got. Again, you get a mention of your mama. So you can point at your mama.

[B]

You can't.

[A]

I'm sorry, but there's nobody.

[B]

You can't. Weddings are all about having named people to point at. There's no one.

[A]

Like generically. You can just point at so many people with this. But I Do think the chorus of Dancing through the Lightning Strikes has got a kind of beauty to it as well.

[B]

Yeah. And that's when you just sort of spin around and you're like, oh, I.

[A]

Was dancing through the lightning strike. It feels like there is actually something very heartfelt there and there's something very.

[B]

It's very wedding speech to be like, very. Oh, you know, for so long I thought that things were bad and then I realized you have to work at these things. And marriages work and wedding is work and we're happy and like, blah, blah, blah. We've been through so much together. It's very that. It is very that Onyx sky. And then Opalite. Sure. I hated it. I don't want to ever listen to it alone.

[A]

Is it on your skips? It's on your Spotify.

[B]

I find it so annoying to listen to in isolation. But when I heard it on Dance 4 so different. I was like, oh, I'm gonna see five year olds dancing to this.

[A]

So different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's the thing. There aren't enough.

[B]

We had that with Generation Dance Floor.

[A]

Song because we had that with both Midnights and Tortured Poets where she did quite sort of like. I guess Midnight's quite lo fi. Quite like, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Boom, boom, boom. And then Tortured Poets. She's just miserable. But she still needed to have one song that could be played at a children's birthday party. So you had to put one in each of them and they. And they do stick out.

[B]

I enjoy them. Broken heart is what you're saying.

[A]

Karma and I can deal with a broken heart. You're just like, yeah, these are different songs from a different time and it's nice. But this whole album is much more children's birthday party. It is needed it.

[B]

It's bubblegum pop. People forgot what that was. It's not all about taking cocaine and like Lord cleaning come off her on chest, you know, which is literally a lyric from that new album.

[A]

Oh, no. Is it?

[B]

Sometimes it's just for babies. Pop is for babies and we have to remember that.

[A]

Children like the idea of dancing through lightning strikes. They've seen Disney films, they've seen frozen. Adults have also seen frozen.

[B]

Yeah, it's something about Opalite as well. It feels very like you're watching a Netflix Christmas romcom and they're showing that it's finally Christmas week. It's like, oh, we were building up to this. It was October. Now it's December 20th.

[A]

It's going to get licensed so much. Yeah, it's A shame that the Samurai Turned Pretty has finished now, because they would love Opalite.

[B]

They would love that. I'm sure. I haven't seen any of it. I'm sorry.

[A]

I've seen a bit of it.

[B]

People have written in a lot for us to watch it together, and I just don't have the energy.

[A]

I watched half the first season and I couldn't. Couldn't finish it, I'm afraid. But I am very aware that they use a lot of Taylor Swift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Songs.

[B]

Oh, bless them.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

Any more in Opolide for you?

[A]

I mean, what more is there to say? It's a dance floor banger. Like, you know, there are songs in this album that we've got things to say about, and I'd be like, that's not one of them. You know what is one of them, though?

[B]

Oh, my God. Track five.

[A]

Track four. Track four.

[B]

Our favorite.

[A]

This is again, last night in. In the Queen of Hoxton, if you came up to us and we were screaming, masterpiece. Masterpiece. It was this new masterpiece. I said this to so many people. I don't know if they would agree.

[B]

I want to extend my apologies to one, like, specific girl who. There's, like, a lovely Irish girl on the dance floor who came up and was, like, really nice. And she was like, oh, you know, I really like listening to it. And. And you and I just were not in a place to hear it. We just kept screaming masterpiece. And I. I'm like, I'm really sorry if I was rude. I'm really sorry.

[A]

It was joy. We were trying to generally.

[B]

I'm so good at, like, holding space for, like. Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. It's the joy of my life making this podcast. And it's so good to see you. Let's have a hug. I was just too in the music. It's a masterpiece.

[A]

Yeah, it was very stuck on, like, stuck on broadcast, you know, Are we really scared?

[B]

And we scared that poor girl.

[A]

I'm so sorry. However, this is a masterpiece.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Father Figure is the crown jewel of this album. I did not expect it to be. When I saw the track listing and I knew and I heard that it was like sampling George Michael, I was like, well, that's just going to be a song. The truly the crown jewel right at the center of the tiara, the show, the showgirl headpiece. Father Figure.

[B]

Okay. Why is it the showpiece for you? I would say Elizabeth Taylor is actually the showpiece for me, but I love them both the same. But Elizabeth Taylor, 1% more.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No.

[B]

Show your workings.

[A]

Well, listen, everything about this song is silly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I love all of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love. I love the music. I love the sapling of George Michael. I love the story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I love.

[B]

I love the vaguely Italian mobster vibes.

[A]

I love the grain mahogany.

[B]

I'll pay the check before it kisses the mahogany grain.

[A]

I love that. Like, I think we all. And we do it, too. We all lean into this kind of the new historicist readings of Taylor Swift, where every song is a song about just one thing, one person only. And as we've discussed many times on this podcast, actually, like any true artist, she's layering multiple meanings into her. Into her story. So people are like, oh, this is about Olivia Rodrigo.

[B]

Like, a bit, maybe.

[A]

Certainly when you see her talking about it in the film, very pointed at. Olivia does take a little moment to just be like. And you probably should ask before you interpolate.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. So.

[B]

Okay. For people who aren't aware of the Livery Rodrigo, the situation was, is that Taylor took Olivia Rodrigo under her wing, and she was very much a protege. And then there was. We never really got the full deal on the gossip, but apparently Olivia Rodrigo sort of interpolated and sampled Cruel Summer and also New Year's Day, maybe.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Without clearing it or asking first. Kind of assumed it would be fine.

[A]

Because they were pop's biggest perfectionist with pop's biggest perfectionist.

[B]

And then they fell out over that. And then Olivia Rodrigo wrote a song called Vampire. It's allegedly about Taylor. It's a great song. Again, most diss tracks about Taylor are great songs. She inspires great, great art from great artists. And so when she's introducing Father Figure, she so carefully and pointedly says, and it was such an honor to work with the George Michael, essentially state. So I could get permission to interpolate the music, because that's really important when you're dealing with great work.

[A]

And of course. Of course, we didn't do anything until we had that approval.

[B]

It is so bitchy. It's so cunty. It is.

[A]

But this is so much. This isn't a diss track, though. Like, that's just one tiny element of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is about. It's partly fiction, and I think she is just kind of playing with idea, but it's. It's. We've talked so much about her experience of growing up in the music industry and the way that the power dynamics have shifted around her and her growth from, you know, ingenue to the most powerful woman in pop. Possibly a person in pop. Actually the most powerful person in pop and in music at this point in time. And even just the kind of the story arc from lover where you have the man, to where she's just like, oh, if I was a man, then this would all be okay to. To the phrase, I can make a deal with the devil because my dick's bigger. It's amazing.

[B]

So fun.

[A]

I was so happy for her when I heard about her giant, giant cock that she just slams on the table.

[B]

So much of this is about Diggs.

[A]

So much. And listen, we know that we're gonna.

[B]

Be talking about Diggs pretty soon.

[A]

Yeah, Diggs pretty soon. But I just think that kind of. You feel so pleased for her that she has found her power. I think she's gone from this place of being very vulnerable. And she's done this so much in the public eye. And she has been, like, incredibly scrutinized and criticized. And indeed, we are scrutinizing her now, but in a loving way. And to see her kind of be like, no, I am now. I'm the daddy now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I protect the family.

[B]

It's so good. It's so camp and so great. But, like, it's also, like, a reminder how your first take on a Taylor Swift song is never the correct one. Especially when it's, like, one of her big vengeance bangers. Because I remember when look what you made me do came out and people thought it was so funny and dumb. Especially with the Wright said Fred Sample was such, like, a weird, corny choice. And, like, oh, she's all in black and she thinks she's bad and all those things and stuff. And then the music video came out and people were like, okay, that's pretty sick. And then it just, like, slowly it became like, it is the fucking bop of a century.

[A]

So good.

[B]

It's like when she does these camp vengeance things, they feel really cringe. And then, I don't know, they just fucking work because they're so over the top and camp.

[A]

I think with this one, I was on the ground floor. Honestly. I heard it one time and I was like, this is genius. I love it. Protect the family.

[B]

It's so good.

[A]

And it's just so much more pulled into it. But I think probably her own relationship with her father as well, who was very much like, 80s mahogany office.

[B]

Yeah. Stockbroker guy.

[A]

Stockbroker. You feel all these kind of the leaves of meaning that are kind of layered into this.

[B]

Yeah. And it's the same office that Joe Alwyn Was called into the day. He was given his settlement check to never speak to the public or anyone ever again. Joelwyn's fucking own parents haven't heard from him.

[A]

It just slid across the mahogany grave. We hope this will be satisfactory.

[B]

Yeah, here's £80 million to never talk about Taylor ever, Ever. Don't even say her name out loud. Has he ever said her name out loud?

[A]

I actually don't think he has, Joe. The slammer, Olwen.

[B]

Yeah. He took the money.

[A]

He took the money. I would. Oh, the slammer.

[B]

This bloody slammer. Living in a golden cage of money.

[A]

He's probably delighted.

[B]

Yeah, I'm sure he is. Yeah.

[A]

I think this. I also just think. I do think they use father figure very well. The sampling of it really good. Really gets me in the feels. I think it's very beautiful.

[B]

And I also love. I think it is a growth moment of, like, she's done so many songs as well that are about, like, oh, Scooter Braun, Fuck Me over, or this Other Guy, whatever. And the kind of recognition of, like, oh, part of getting older and powerful means that the things that have happened to you, you will do to other people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And that is just sort of part of being grown up.

[A]

Yeah. And I think she. There is kind of. I think probably, again, she's not unaware of the criticisms leveled against her around the fact that she basically seems to control the music industry. And when she puts out an album, everyone's like, well, I guess no one else will be having any hits for a time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Guess that's Taylor's moment here.

[B]

She brokered, like, a peace deal with Beyonce, hasn't she, that they never released music at the same time.

[A]

There's probably some kind of, like, un Negotiating table that they have. But she's aware of that power and I love it. I just think having a woman in her late 30s, say, first of all, unironically sing the phrase my dear boy on it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

On a song. And just like, leave it with me. Leave it with me.

[B]

Leave it with me is actually.

[A]

She's so earnest and so cute and so kind of awkward, but she's also like a mafia boss.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why not be both?

[B]

It is crazy that she's like, I like baking bread and, like, cats.

[A]

Leave it with me, my dear boy.

[B]

It's so fun. But she's also like, I will kill you. I will bury you.

[A]

You would not want to gather on side of Taylor Swift.

[B]

Yeah. But, yeah, every single woman in pop has to basically kiss the ring before they enter.

[A]

My Lord.

[B]

My Lord, my Lord.

[A]

Do you remember when your entire Instagram got taken down? After.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

After we did the Taylor Swift podcast. Not just women in Pop.

[B]

Yeah. Us noble podcasters.

[A]

Oh, dear. She'll protect the family. I love this song. I think it's the finest song of the album.

[B]

Yeah, it is amazing. It is. Again, when we were listening to it on the dance floor, hearing it all cranked up, because I also think the instrumentation on this album is so great. And again, not in your headphones on a dance floor, when you can hear the layers, you can hear the synths.

[A]

Getting that 80s synth in there.

[B]

Oh, it was just so fun.

[A]

So good. So good that we tried to make them play it again, and they would not. Even though we're friends. Very sad.

[B]

What's next?

[A]

What's next is the. The biggest skip of the album for me.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Track five, Eldest daughter.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The way I hid that on Spotify, within probably about five listens, I was just like, I can't with you.

[B]

It's really quite boring.

[A]

Do you know what I think is good about this? Okay, track five. I'm assuming everyone listens knows this, but track five on a Taylor Swift album is usually the most heartfelt, vulnerable. Kind of like this is her crying, bang, cracking open her chest, and telling you something really sad that's going on for her. And, you know, the whole of Tortured Poets was track five.

[B]

Yeah, it was so Long London on things.

[A]

Yes. But so Long London.

[B]

I just had a moment there when I realized. Remember when we first did our Midnights podcast? And we were like, we don't really know that much about her, but we like the songs. And then we're like, we know everything.

[A]

We know far too much.

[B]

It's so lame. It is.

[A]

And yet we still don't know.

[B]

I will never be taken seriously as a novelist. It's so funny. I just like every time I do one of these just to get another award I will never get.

[A]

I mean, I'm still amazed by how much we don't know, because I would say every time we do one of these, I get two DMs about something I got wrong. And I'm just like, I don't care.

[B]

All I care about is how I feel and how my friend feels, and I don't really care about anything else.

[A]

We've come in with the huge proviso that we don't know the most, who feel the most, and I don't know about that, but song fives are usually her very, like, her big emotional ones. So the last two, both of which are like, fully like, oh, my God. So you're on your own, kid.

[B]

Oh, fuck.

[A]

Our first big cry of the night yesterday.

[B]

Yeah. Huge cry. I cried my contact lenses, though.

[A]

Oh, my God, you did?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then I had to just sort of guide you home like a dog. You were like, where are we? McDonald's, Liverpool Street. Oh, where's my bag? It was great. And then so long, London in Talk to Poets, which, again, is just like her processing the end of a relationship that's so difficult for her. And like this huge thing. And this. This album is just like, kind of sucks to be the oldest daughter a bit sometimes, eh? And I think what's good about this is the reason it sucks, is that she hasn't really got anything to complain about right now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She's in a really healthy relationship. Everyone's expecting a sad song. She's in a really healthy relationship. She's just bought her masters back. She's getting married. She didn't know that was quite right.

[B]

It's quite simply, nothing wrong with her.

[A]

Life, but her life is absolutely charmed right now. So she's really kind of digging around, like, turning up the sofa cushions, like, down the back to be like, you know what sucks?

[B]

People on the Internet being mean.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, people are. And this very kind of black and white thinking, which is so just wrong, where it's like, everyone's so punk on the Internet. I don't know about you, but I'm not punk on the Internet. Everybody's unbothered till they're not. Every joke's just trolling and memes. It's just so, like this generalizations about the Internet which are completely untrue.

[B]

What do you mean, completely untrue? I mean, it's partly true, obviously.

[A]

Partly.

[B]

It's boring because it's broad. It's like. Yeah, it's quite. People are fucking assholes. Yeah.

[A]

Your hot take is that sometimes even on the Internet are awful.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well done, you. She's not a bad bitch. And this isn't savage, but she did just say that I'm your father figure and I will kill you. So you are quite selfish.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you can be a bad bitch. I just. I couldn't. I. I couldn't be bothered with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And every eldest daughter was the first lamb to the slaughter. So we all dressed up as wolves and we looked fire.

[B]

I hate that line so much.

[A]

And I am an eldest daughter. You are not for you, it's for me. In theory. This is. She said it in the little film, this is, you know, you speak to eldest daughters and they're all the same. And I'm like, yeah, but I still don't like this song.

[B]

I guess if we're taking any gossip from this song, on a gossip level, it's when I said I didn't believe in marriage, that was a lie.

[A]

When did she say she didn't believe in marriage?

[B]

She said lavender haze.

[A]

Oh, I guess. Yeah. Yeah, that's fair. Okay. She did. She did. God, we do know too much.

[B]

We know too much.

[A]

It's actually sad.

[B]

But crucially, where I think this is a hen. This is a hen night song.

[A]

This is a hen night song. But I still am slightly judging the hens.

[B]

Oh, also, we forgot to say with Father figure. Oh, my God.

[A]

How did we miss that?

[B]

Father figure is a hen night song.

[A]

However, it's also a wedding song.

[B]

Yeah. So it's. It's the head night song. Because obviously you're like, I'll be your father. It's like, great. It's just like. It's sassy, it's cunty. It's pointing. It's also like, it's pointing to yourself.

[A]

I'll be your father.

[B]

Like, your hands on the chest. We all have our hands on our own chest. Being like, I'm the sexy father figure. I'm gonna dom my boyfriend.

[A]

Yeah. We have made the kind of. The broad assumption that this is a straight hen because Taylor is the straightest artist of all time. Of course.

[B]

I would love to meet the lesbian hen where they're playing Taylor Swift.

[A]

Like, yes, it might happen, I guess. But I think what's also important is if you are a straight woman going into marriage to a man, you are kind of participating in one of the greatest tools the patriarchy has. So it's really important to sing with your girls. That your dick is bigger.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that you are the father figure. It's an important part of your Hindu to reassert your own power.

[B]

When me and. Me and Ella did our Hindu, which. Sorry, sorry, that's not what I mean at all. Me and Ella did not get married.

[A]

Happily married.

[B]

But, I mean, this is actually my advice to anyone who's planning to get married and is going to have a hendu, which is that, like, do not leave it to surprise. Do not leave nine women in a group talking about what you might like. Three months before my wedding, me and Ella had, like, a night where we got Chinese food, and she was like, what don't you want? I told her everything. I don't want. And I was just like, ideally, I want to get dumplings with my friends and then I want to do karaoke until the, like, really early hours of the morning and then maybe a bit of a dance. And I want to be. And I want us to all meet up at 6pm and I also all go home at 2am and we did exactly that. And that's exactly what we did. And, like, I watched her. She wrote the email and I. We both made sure that people would be spending that much money or whatever. And, like, just get rid of the whole thing about my Hindu. Should be a surprise and a test for how much my parents, my friends love me. It is like, you plan the night with your maid of honor. Don't put her through hell. Don't give her an unpaid job. Like, it's not fair. It's not. All right. And father figure. Oh, sorry, sorry. This is what I was getting to anyway. The hen was such a smash and it got. It was. I believe it's the only hen do to get a review in sunny times.

[A]

You protect the family.

[B]

By which I mean someone from the. I obviously flaked up some pictures on Instagram because I look great. So.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was also, I think I looked hotter at my hand than I did at my wedding, which actually is upsetting. I actually. I don't think I look that good at my wedding, to be honest.

[A]

Caroline, this is not the time. This is not the time to discuss your ludicrous insecurities, of which there are several.

[B]

No, I think I looked very funny. I looked fine, but I think I looked really nice at my head.

[A]

I think you look great at both of them in two different ways.

[B]

Sure. It's not about that today, but I get it. But anyway, so they asked if we could write a piece about the hen, I guess because it looked fun. I can't believe this happened. And Ella wrote and it was like, the thing about a hen doom is that the wedding is all about. Weddings are all straight. Weddings are all about gender roles unless you go out of your way to not make it about gender roles by wearing a pantsuit or whatever. And like, even then you're doing a thing because you're not doing the other thing. It's like it's. You're. You're the soft, beautiful, feminine bride who everyone talks about is so amazing and looks great. And you don't. In many straight weddings, you don't say a lot. You don't do a lot. You're sort of looked at, which is why the Hendu has to be the equal, opposite, energy fair. Where you have to be, you know, you're Grace Kelly in one, you're Peggy Bundy in the other. Do you know what I mean?

[A]

I do know what you mean.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And that's why Father Figure is a perfect hen knight song. Because it's you in a fucking sequin jumpsuit and a shitty veil, gesturing at your crotch and pretending to be a little bit.

[A]

I'm saying you've got a massive penis. It is so important. But then what makes it even better is because it's called Father Figure. When you're at the wedding and all.

[B]

Of the girlies who have bonded at the hen are like, this is the song that we all went crazy to.

[A]

You can tell whoever the DJ is who you've paid. You're like, oh, I really want Taylor Swift's Father Figure kind of later in the evening. And this DJ is not going to be familiar with the lyrics. Taylor Swift, Smith. Taylor Smith, Taylor Swift's father figure. And you'll be like, the radio edit. Of course, the radio edit, importantly. And then they will play it quite late in the reception when everyone is pretty drunk and you can dance with your dad. And the crucial thing about the radio edit is the line is, I can make a deal with the devil because my check's bigger. Yes. You don't have to gesture at anyone's crotch in front of your parents.

[B]

And you can sort of drunkenly, you can surround the dad and be like. If you're in. If it's like, a situation. Thanks for paying for the wedding, dad.

[A]

He's paid for the wedding. Yeah, he's feeling amazing. He's feeling.

[B]

I love this wedding so much.

[A]

He is having the greatest time. But also all the girlies who are on the hen know the other edit. And they're all, like, chuckling as well, because they're like, remember we had that amazing dance and we all played. Tend to have huge longs in the club.

[B]

And now we're thanking Kayleigh's dad for having us.

[A]

It is a song that crosses boundaries.

[B]

And he's so delighted. All the girlies are dancing around him.

[A]

It's connective tissue between the hen and the wedding. And you need that at a wedding. You need a call back to the hen. Just a reminder of your Peggy Bundy self. You need it and you get it with Father Figure, but without his daughter, you don't.

[B]

This is the only lens worth looking at this album.

[A]

It's truly the only one any other takes henceforth. Don La Poubelle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They're gone. We don't care for them.

[B]

We don't care for them. Yeah.

[A]

This is.

[B]

I will not be reading any more Taylor Swift criticism after today because this is the only work.

[A]

Yeah. We only want to be.

[B]

Is it a wedding? Is it a hen? Is it both?

[A]

Yeah. Eldest Daughter is a wedding song, unfortunately.

[B]

No, I think Eldest Daughter is a hen song. Do you think? Yeah. Because every hen needs to have a crying moment.

[A]

Oh, I suppose.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. You don't.

[B]

When I said I didn't want to get married, that was a lie.

[A]

Do you know what? You're right. And you can't sing because I'm not a bad bitch at your own wedding, can you?

[B]

Yeah. You can't. No.

[A]

I'm sorry for my egregious error of judgment.

[B]

Yeah. The thing is. Or a hen weekend, it has levels. There are downbeat moments. There are, like, big talky. Oh, wow. We're all sitting on the beach in Brighton and I'm talking about, like, how I never really knew myself until now. And, like, whatever.

[A]

No, you're right, it is. I still don't like it.

[B]

I didn't think I wanted to get married now. Does it make me really basic that I do?

[A]

Am I basic?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, you're right. It is a night song. The only thing that I enjoy about this song is yesterday when we were having a drink before we went dancing, we were talking about the kind of weird mismatch between the visuals that were released for this album before they came out and then what happened. And, like, the visuals that were released in the lead up to the. To this album coming out were sort of like. It was like Lady Marmalade. You know, it was like she's watched a lot of Moulin Rouge. It was giving kind of boudoir photo shoot that you do for your husband.

[B]

Yeah, so true.

[A]

She is wearing, like, a rhinestone G string in everything. And to be fair, her ass looks amazing.

[B]

Her body looks incredible. She looks like Wonder Woman. At the moment, I would only wear.

[A]

A rhinestone G string.

[B]

Unbelievable.

[A]

But then, like, we were talking about it, I was like, what's so weird is that I've got this visual in my mind of her, like, wearing a rhinestone G string while singing about falling off a swing and breaking her arm when she's 8. And then in the cinema today, in the lyric video, it's Taylor Swift in a rhinestone G string playing the piano and going, I broke my arm when I was 8. And it's just so Incongruous.

[B]

The cognitive dissonance of the image and the lyric is like, why are you wearing a rhinestone G string to tell me that you broke your arm when you were eight? It's so weird.

[A]

And you feel sad sometimes about being the eldest daughter, but you're wearing, like, a feathered headdress.

[B]

It's so cute. It's so strange that this is called Life of a Showgirl.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, it is.

[B]

When it should have been called Hen party and Wedding. It should have been.

[A]

Now that's what I call Hen party wedding. Also a two in one. A two in one. But that's. That's the thing I like most about this song is just the image of her singing this in her rhinestone G string.

[B]

Yeah. So funny to me. I'm here on my rhinestone G string. I broke my arm when I was 8. And also, a guy from school is dead. Okay, hang on. I want to try an experiment.

[A]

What?

[B]

So we're both lying on the couch right now. Can we do that thing that you do with your siblings when you're small and you put your feet together and you like, sort of use, like, as we talk. I want to see. I want to see if it changes the energy of the puck.

[A]

This foot is different. No, you need to match the feet. You've got to match the feet. Your left foot. Your left foot is wrong. Okay, there we go. It's hard because your feet are bigger than mine.

[B]

Get out of my house.

[A]

I've got such tiny little. I got such tiny, tiny little vag.

[B]

It's such a problem.

[A]

I feel like Sabrina Carpenter doing this at Taylor Swift with off.

[B]

They are sevens. Like, that is. That is a lot. That is a lot.

[A]

They're actually completely normally sized feet. I guess mine are just so small.

[B]

Oh, yeah. The next one is the other. The ruin the friendship. This is the one where someone died from school. And it's. It's kind of about me. Really?

[A]

What do you mean it's about you?

[B]

No. Is it like. It's Taylor being like. The thing is, so when I went to school is dead. It's kind of about me?

[A]

Kind of vaguely was like, yeah, it's happened to a few people. I know.

[B]

Yeah. You know when you get older and then you have people from school who.

[A]

Died, and then you go and be like, I should have kissed you.

[B]

I gotta say, I. I understand that there will be a contingency of people who will love this song more than any on the album. It is not for me. It's a skip for me.

[A]

Oh, I think it's nice.

[B]

But I'm also just, like, not a speak now, girly. I'm not a fan of it.

[A]

Right. It is that.

[B]

And it's very, like, three verses and like, oh, wow. And like, now. And now it's very country in Western song.

[A]

No, you're right, it is. I think there's a certain charm to it, and I think the central idea of it. Your legs are so much longer than mine that this. You have to bring this in.

[B]

Okay. Do you want me to stop doing the leg thing?

[A]

No, it's fine.

[B]

It's going to distract you.

[A]

It's okay. It's just good. I'm really short. I think there's something about that thing of, like, not. Not letting go of chances. I think she has got something nice. And it's a very simple and a very obvious and cliche thing to say, but we should say it more like if. If you have an opportunity, you should just give it a go.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, just give it just, you know, kiss the man again.

[B]

She's so psychologically untroubled at the moment that she's like, you know what? Give it a go.

[A]

You know what? You miss every shot you don't take. It's just her song doing that, but in quite a sort of melancholy country western way. Yeah. Like, listen, it's not a song that I'm gonna be thinking about loads and loads in the way that I'll think about father figure and Elizabeth Taylor. But, like, when it comes on, I'm not gonna, like, not bop along to it. I'm gonna be like, friendship.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I mean, it's fine. I don't care about it at all.

[A]

What's crucial, I suppose, as a question is, is it hen or is it wedding? Oh, wedding.

[B]

I think it's wedding. Yeah. It's one of those wedding songs that, like. It has a romantic melody, like, slow dance melody to it, and should have kissed you anyway. Feels like, oh, so glad that we kissed and that we're here. And it's just like. Yeah, it does. For a slowdown moment. It also feels weddingly in the sense of a wedding is often a place where you see people that you could have gotten off with in previous lives or maybe you did get off with at the last wedding. And it's like, oh, God, we've got all this history.

[A]

I think it does. I think it does a public service in both of those scenarios. One, someone that you have always wanted to get off with, you see at the wedding. This is your opportunity.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, you were at school with them. You're like, he's still kind of hot. He seems single. I'm just gonna ruin the friendship is that it gives you cover if you have previously, as you say, got off with someone you shouldn't have, and you're dancing together and you can just kind of point at one another as you.

[B]

Do and go, whoopsie, ooh, when we're kissing.

[A]

That's a shame. And it's just a nice icebreaker.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

It's also probably good if one of your friends died. I don't know. It might be useful then, because you do think. I think at weddings you do think about people who aren't there.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And this is like. It's not so melancholy that you're going to be like, we're all weeping on the dance floor. But I think it's kind of a nice, like, acknowledgement that at almost every wedding, there is someone who should be there, isn't there? Because they are unwell or dead.

[B]

God, this wedding lens is absolutely bulletproof, isn't it? It's bulletproof. I haven't.

[A]

Haven't found a crack at it yet.

[B]

No.

[A]

But I think it gives that kind of moment for you to just be like, you know, you can all kind of have a little meaningful look at, like, someone, you know and be like, yeah, it'd be cool if that person was there, wouldn't it? But we're not gonna spend so long dwelling on it that it becomes.

[B]

It's a verse only.

[A]

It's a verse only. That's what it needs. Thank you, Taylor.

[B]

Thank you, Taylor, for your perfect wedding album.

[A]

Did I talk too much?

[B]

Can't I just let it go? I wish I would stop.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Did I talk too much? Take a breath.

[A]

You're not alone. Let's talk about what's going on.

[B]

Counseling helps you sort through the noise with qualified professionals, and online therapy makes it convenient. See if it's for you, visit betterhelp.com random podcast for 10% off your first.

[A]

Month of online therapy.

[B]

And let life feel better. Pura brings smart fragrance and function together. Premium scents, smart app control, and sleek design. And here's the best part. Your first set of fragrances is free. Hurry to pura.com now and upgrade your home today. The next one on the list is. Oh, it's the one that has the whole Internet talking. It's actually romantic.

[A]

I love actually romantic. I love it. So go on. I mean, what's not to Love. So one of the things we did in the. In the lead up to this album release, because we are now, like, at least part time swiftocrats, is we sat together in your house, where we are now, and we did a big mind map of what we thought was going to be on.

[B]

And if you'd like to see that video in full, it is.

[A]

It is on Garada's Instagram.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And it's very good. And actually, I have to say, weirdly accurate.

[B]

I mean, I've had a few comments on the video since. Since the album's come out, and people have been like, this was so accurate. I was like, yeah, it kind of is, but it was kind of what all the albums have been about for a while, which is that, like, my experience of being famous, my experiences of having my boyfriend, and my experience of having people I'm angry with, like, that.

[A]

Is true, you know. However, as part of this mind mapping exercise, Gavin was also involved. And Gavin made Gavin, who does not.

[B]

Care about Taylor Swift at all and.

[A]

Barely knows a thing about her, you know, beyond what he's.

[B]

But he does love Charlie.

[A]

He loves Charlie.

[B]

We're a big Charlie house in this house as well. 100%.

[A]

You know, we can play both teams here. But Gav was like, oh, well, obviously there has to be a clap back to Charlie. And we were like, whoa, imagine. Imagine.

[B]

Because. Because if anyone who's not in the Charlie bandwagon, because on Charlie's and Brat, she released a song called Sympathy is a Knife. And it is a beautiful song that is so vulnerable and so catchy and so brilliant that you can hear on the dance floor, but you can also hear it in your headphones and cry. And. And it's like, oh, this is like. You make me so insecure. I'm going out with one of the guys from the lines of 75. You're going out with one of the guys. Line 75, you're the biggest pop star in the world. It really sucks not being you, and it's tearing me apart. It's not necessarily about you, but you do make me feel like shit. And it's so. It's such a vulnerable piece of songwriting. She's like, I really do think Charlie did deserve that. She got the Ivory Develop Awards this year, didn't she, for songwriting?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

She did. She did. Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Yeah.

[B]

And she deserves it.

[A]

That's. I.

[B]

What fucking great songs. And that is one of the greatest songs she's ever done. It's a great song, but obviously we're like.

[A]

But we're like, okay, well, there's got to be a clap back. And we're there going, well, Taylor Swift's not gonna clap back. She's not gonna care that much. And Gavin's like, no, he's good. She's gonna do Sympathy Is a Life.

[B]

You know, and then I remember we both dropped our pens and we were like, whoa, whoa, Sympathy is a Life.

[A]

And, like, it's gonna be a song about how Taylor is kind of bored of how she always has to just be nice to everyone around her and make and hold space for them and make them feel good. And it's just gonna be a clapback to Charli xcx. Now, obviously, actually, romantic is not called Sympathy is a Life, but it does have the exact condescending tone that I was hoping for in Sympathy Is a Life.

[B]

It's so condescending.

[A]

It's so, like, sweetly, saccharinely sympathetic, whilst also. Absolutely. With a stiletto in it, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a knife in the dark. It's so funny.

[B]

You know what? I think it's a funny camp. It's very of the. In the Bad Blood tradition. Like, Bad Blood is not a very good song, but it's just like, because it's kind of camp. It has its place in the canon.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, I was. I was very much, like, for the last. Before we went to the cinema event today, I was like, yeah, like, Jen's into it more than I am, but I fundamentally believe that, like, Charlie created something really incredible. And Taylor's thing is, like, it's not big, it's not clever. I know there's been a lot of, like, talking about, like, punching up and punching down. I personally don't really believe in punching down as a thing. I think that your. Your take is either clever or it isn't. And I was like, this is not a clever take. Like, this is like, this is just being like, haha, you're a bit gay. And I thought it was like, a little bit homophobic. I'm like, I don't know. I don't really love this. And like, okay. But then when Taylor's introducing it in the movie, I finally kind of got it. I was like. She was like, yeah. The thing is, is that, you know, sometimes you find out that you're this huge thing in other people's narrative and you're like, wow. I don't think about you that way at all, but wow. And I was like, oh, wow. The reason it's a shallow like, kind of stupid Regina George Hitback is like, she's kinda like, I can't do a response as deep as your one because I don't feel that deeply about you.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And actually doing a shallow, dumb song is almost like its own form of worst prevention.

[A]

It totally is. And it just kind of. It's exactly what was needed in that moment, I think. I also do think, and obviously Charli XXLI is the obvious kind of main subject of this song. But as always with Taylor Swift's songs, there are multiple subjects. And I think this is as much about Donald Trump and about every boring person who's written an article on Substack about how they uniquely don't like Taylor Swift. And she's just kind of like, why are you so obsessed with me? Why are you writing another thought piece about how you don't like my music? Just don't fucking listen.

[B]

You're so right. This song so easily could be about every girlo on Substack.

[A]

There's so many people who this song is about. And it's just that for the purposes of narrative fiction, she's been like, I'm gonna sort of slightly locate it in Charli xcx. But if you actually listen to the lyrics, at no point does she say anything bad about Charli xcx. The thing that locates it is the reference to Coke at the beginning that makes you be like, oh, that sounds like it's kind of bad.

[B]

I heard you call me boring Barbie when the coke's got you braised.

[A]

Yeah. And the high fiving my. And therefore the proximity to her ex. So it's those two things. But at no point does she say anything about Charlie as a person, as a writer, as an artist. She's just kind of like, why are you obsessed with me? So it's not. I don't. I feel like, again, I don't know, I'm not a recording artist, but Charli XX is a very powerful recording artist at this point in time. She is very good, she's very celebrated, she's very cool. She put that song out knowing full well that it was obviously about Taylor Swift and that Taylor Swift would obviously.

[B]

And primed for the response, I imagine.

[A]

And fully. There's no world. I'm sorry, if you're Charlie XXCX and you put that song out and you don't expect some kind of riposte.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, what are you doing in this business? And I fully believe that when she heard that song on Friday, her response wasn't like, oh, no, Taylor's been mean. She was just like, ah, well played. Well played, my old foe.

[B]

You're so well played, Philip. A good. A good handled dog. My indefatigable good form.

[A]

Couldn't run it better myself, old boy. Like, it's, like, in the UN negotiating table.

[B]

Totally.

[A]

It's a good Sally across the bow. That is a good Sally across the bow. Wow.

[B]

I have no idea what that means, but I loved it.

[A]

I think it was both maritime and land combat put together there, but I feel like that's her response. She's not going to be, like, upset by this. It's a funny song. It's funny to compare someone to a tiny chihuahua in a purse.

[B]

It's so, like, weirdly 2004. It is just to like comparing someone to a purse dog and then to.

[A]

Be like, you're making me wet with your insults. It's funny. It's funny. It's very. Yeah. Real Housewives.

[B]

It's so Real Housewives. Oh, my God, you're so right. It's so Real Housewives.

[A]

I love it.

[B]

It's so stupid.

[A]

It's so stupid.

[B]

And it's for those curious. It's a Henson.

[A]

It's obviously a hen song.

[B]

It's about that girl who's not here, who we used to be friends with. Yes. Oh, my God. It's so that you need that.

[A]

There is every hence involves a level of.

[B]

There's a girl who was invited and didn't come, and now there's a girl.

[A]

Who'S invited, who's, like the bottom hen in the pecking order. Like, who's kind of the district 12 of that hen. There is.

[B]

Oh, my God. There's always a district 12.

[A]

There's always a district 12 of the hen, the Dobby, the house elf. There's like. There's always something like that. And there's always like, a level of kind of. Yeah. Like Shakespearean, like, plotting and people being like. Oh, like factions, you know, not always, but I think a lot of the time there is.

[B]

Yeah. So actually romantic. It could be about, like, his mental ex who's getting contact for no reason. It could be about anyone. It could be anyone. Any girl you have beef with. And, like, the girls at the hen know that there's a girl that you have beef in.

[A]

There's gonna be a beef somewhere in that hen. Whether it's a beef that's present, a beef that's absent, a beef that exists only in your imaginations, there will be a beef. And one of the joys of putting together, 10 to 20 random women is discovering the beef and then eating together.

[B]

So, Right.

[A]

Sampling it.

[B]

And then like, yeah, there's like three or four girls who are intimate with the beef and then there's like satellite girls being. Well, show me your Instagram.

[A]

Come on, come on.

[B]

Pull her up, pull her up.

[A]

Give us a look. And saying things like, well, there's a special place in hell for people like her, isn't there? You know, it's important.

[B]

Absolutely. Going in on someone you've never met and they will never know before tonight.

[A]

And they will never know and they will never know. So important. It's a hen song. And it's an important part of the hen. It's a late, late part of the hen. Everyone you know, you have shaken hands and said goodbye to sobriety at the crossroads some hours previously, you know, you have kissed him on the forehead and you've said sobriety. I'll see you in the morning maybe.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You are off.

[B]

You stop just short of phoning her. You're like, let's call her. Oh, my God, should we call her? And then someone who still has, like, still has the Gruffy. And the girl's like, no, we can't call. We can't call her.

[A]

You are. You're gone. You know, maybe it's as you go to McDonald's.

[B]

Yeah. It could be your prospective mother in law, it could be your sister in law. Like, it could be anyone.

[A]

And the great irony is, of course, they're probably not thinking about you, but you're thinking about them.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And that's why this song is great.

[B]

And it's. It's for hens.

[A]

It's a hen.

[B]

God, it's a hen.

[A]

Classic.

[B]

Incredible.

[A]

Incredible.

[B]

Do you have anything else on that one?

[A]

No, Truly, I've said everything I need to say about actually Romanto. I don't know about any of the other lyrics that are in it. It's great. It's great.

[B]

I mean, yeah, the song has been discussed to death already and it's only been out for three days. Like even when we were in our extremely subdued screening of the film thing. Whatever, Whatever.

[A]

What is it even called? I don't know.

[B]

It's a cinema event.

[A]

Cinema event. Life of a Showgirl party.

[B]

Yeah. Taylor Swift's Boomerangs and Zoom calls and talk abs and talking ads. But that was the only song that people had a response to because obviously it's only been out three days and people have lies. Nas. That was like, the only one they really knew because it had been the subject of discourse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's funny how, like, Charlie just got married and like, she. Taylor's about to get married. It's all very interesting. Yeah. Pop is entering its wife era is a headline I read and did not click into.

[A]

Oh, don't. Don't do that.

[B]

It feels like the miracle of that would probably not.

[A]

What's after this? This. What's after this one? We don't know the album so well yet that we could tell you what's after it without looking up on the computer after.

[B]

Actually romantic. It is Wish list.

[A]

Oh, that's my almost skip of this album as well. But I can talk about it. Yeah, but thing.

[B]

Once again, I don't think it's a smart song at all, but it is a bit of a bop.

[A]

It is a bop. And what. The reason it's not yet hidden in my Spotify is because it is quite good to sing along to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The reason it may well be hidden in my Spotify is because it's annoying and I would hear it at the club, but not in my own.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And the reason. I just think. I just think it's a bad look for her, this song, because when again, she introduces it on this film and she's like, this is all about the beautiful, amazing dreams that people have for themselves and like, oh, I really support all their dreams and this is mine. And then you listen to it and you're like, that is not what it is.

[B]

I don't think you support these people's dreams.

[A]

This is you taking a dump on people's kind of, to your mind, quite venal and like silly dreams. Which is indicated by the use of the dollar sign in every S in the lyric video.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You, the richest woman in the world.

[B]

Who has all these things. You could have them if you wanted them.

[A]

Could have them if they wanted them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're being mean about everyone else's things that they want. But you just want a boyfriend, apparently, and you want a best friend who you think is hot. And that's a great line.

[B]

Again, great for the wedding.

[A]

Great for the wedding.

[B]

This one is a. It's like father figure. It's a wedding. The emphasis will change.

[A]

It's fully this one. And I think definitely a very wedding. But I think what's weird about it is. And I feel like you have to do an intertextual reading between two other songs with this one. Number one is her own song, Bejeweled, Right? A song where she says, baby boy, I think I've been A little too kind where she talks about the ways in which she removed herself from the public eye and from the thing that she loves, which is being an amazing musical performing artist and is returning to the spotlight covered in shimmer. Because she doesn't just want a boyfriend, she also wants a very successful career.

[B]

She's an apex predator of pop music.

[A]

Which, to be fair, she has openly been going after for her entire career and has achieved. So I don't believe she just wants a man and she doesn't just want a house with a basketball hoop. But I also think it's worth reading in the context of Britney Spears classic Work Bitch.

[B]

It's the inverse of Work bitch, isn't it?

[A]

It's the inverse of Work Bitch. Because Britney Spears work, which for those who don't know it is very much the same. Like, oh, you want a Maserati, you want a hot body.

[B]

You're just listing things.

[A]

She lists things that you might want and that you might need.

[B]

You might want that you might want. My favorite one. Party in France. Party in France.

[A]

Party in France. It doesn't matter which bit though, anyway. Just fine.

[B]

Party in France.

[A]

You could just be just, you know, some kind.

[B]

That song is bonkers. I love it.

[A]

It's bonkers. But what's really important about that song is just like Taylor Swift, she's listing out things that you could achieve if you had a load of money. And where Taylor then goes, no, I don't want that. Britney's like, work for it, bitch. And Taylor has worked, bitch. She has worked so hard for 20 years to achieve all of these things. And now she's like, no, I don't even really want them. But she does still want them. And the other thing that is so annoying about this song is I just paid £20 to go and see this in the cinema, right?

[B]

Not even a video, just.

[A]

Just a boomerang. She has. She is. This is. This is. There are so many versions of this album available for sale right now. I don't. There's like 16 versions. There is so much, much. I do not have any problem with that. I work in advertising. I am a demand engine generator right here. Taylor Swift is really committed to remaining very, very, very, very, very wealthy. And I have no idea what she's going to do with that money because she bought her masters back. Like, is she gonna create a colony on Mars called Swiftopia?

[B]

Is she gonna become a philanthropist?

[A]

What is the money for?

[B]

She has got the most manky looking cardigan you can buy for this album that she was wearing in part of that behind the scenes thing. It looks manky. It looks so itchy and uncomfortable to wear. It's like a glitter wool fabric. It's definitely not real wool.

[A]

It's not gonna wash well.

[B]

It's not gonna wash well.

[A]

Some bits are gonna shrink.

[B]

Some bits are not vile.

[A]

It looks horrid. And think, I have no problem with her using her career to earn money. That is what we all do with our jobs. Yeah, But I think to then write a song being like, and I don't even want all this stuff. I just want my boyfriend. You're like, no, don't lie. Don't lie to my face.

[B]

Don't lie to my face. Don't insult my intelligence.

[A]

I can see you. I just paid for this and I'll pay again.

[B]

What is all the money for?

[A]

What is it for?

[B]

She has to be doing a dollywood at some point.

[A]

She's got to do something with it.

[B]

There has to be some big thing. Because, like, yeah, like, we've all seen her clothes. She doesn't even like stuff that much. She wears the most. Like, she famously wears Reformation. I mean, obviously she wears fancy designers.

[A]

Oh, she looks. She looks amazing. But. Yeah, but, like, she occasionally references Cartier, but, like, there's only so much Cartier you can buy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

She's at the point of wealth now where even if she never did anything else again, her wealth would continue to let her live at an extraordinary level of luxury. So she is working for something. But what is it?

[B]

Why make all these versions that everyone thinks is tacky and weird? Even your fan. It's clear. Like, it's mercenary. Like holding your biggest fans over a barrel because you know they'll buy everything because they're the completionist, because you bred a disease into them. Like, because there are enough people that do that by literally every version. And I do feel very sad for them. And, like, who didn't love them correctly? I don't know. But, like, the. Like, it feels very like you're taking advantage of mental illness.

[A]

Also, just a moment for the weirdest line. I think in this song. Have a couple of kids, get the whole block looking like you. Is.

[B]

Yeah, I know.

[A]

I don't know if she thought that one through. There's only one way that the whole block who looked like your husband, if.

[B]

You'Re studying him out like a racehorse.

[A]

Is he the milkman?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I was like, I don't know that that's. You can have more than a couple of kids for that to happen. Well, Odd, odd, odd song gotta play at the wedding. But it'll also be at a point in the wedding where no one really is listening to the lyrics because everyone's just like having a nice time dancing again.

[B]

It's a great opportunity to point. I just want you.

[A]

Exactly. I just want. You have a couple of kids, you can point to the bride and groom again and then.

[B]

And also the kids that are still present.

[A]

Yeah, you can also kind of. People like to think about stuff that's expensive. Someone will support Real Madrid and be.

[B]

Like, yeah, Real Madrid.

[A]

Someone else.

[B]

Or no, do you know what? Whatever the grooms football team is, it'll be that, like, yeah, Tottenham. Yeah. And that contract with Tottenham Gotham. Come on, you Spurs.

[A]

There's something for the boys here, you know, for the lads.

[B]

The next one is wood. Oh, my God. I actually love it.

[A]

Oh, this is one of our great predictions coming true.

[B]

Yes. The day the pictures of her in her rhinestone G string came out, you texted me and I have the timestamp saying 11th of August or whatever. Yeah. I was like saying, once I'm finished listening to this album, I expect to be able to pick Travis Kelce's dick out of a six dick lineup. And boy, we had no preparations for how right you were gonna be.

[A]

Oh, I was right.

[B]

You were so. And it's so crazy that you were right because this woman has written so many albums and so many songs. She has never been explicit about male genitalia in her career before.

[A]

Never was.

[B]

She's not been much of an innuendo girly. Like. She obviously loves her wordplay and her little fancy word games. Totally, totally.

[A]

But she's never just gone with. My boyfriend has a massive car.

[B]

And I love it.

[A]

And I love it. I love getting railed by my boyfriend at his big dick. What a fantastic offering she has made.

[B]

It's so camp. It's so funny. People are so angry about it. They are furious.

[A]

Are they?

[B]

People are furious about it. I have no idea. It's so funny because I mentioned substack earlier on. I do think that in a very fascinating way, substack is becoming the worst social.

[A]

It's having your platform.

[B]

It really. I mean, I have a substack and I use it sometimes, mostly on the days where I miss Twitter. I like writing some bits every now and then, but like, for all this, as with every platform, there's good bits, there's bad bits, but there's a real chunk of it that's like people who. They have internalized the. My feelings are Valid to the point where they think my feelings are global news. And so they have this way of writing that is incredibly amazing. Sniffy and pretentious, but also so raw and butthurt at the same time. Where. And like, the tone of all of these posts that have been about life of a showgirl have all been the same. They've all been like, I love Taylor Swift more than anyone. I was right there at the Speak now tour. Look, here's a photo of me. And it's because. It's because I love Taylor Swift more than anyone. I am totally confident saying that this album is a war crime. This is an insult to everything the Swifties have been defending for years. And so basically, I think what the. What the root of the annoyance and the fan anger is that I'm seeing so much of is that people have been defending Taylor Swift and their love of Taylor Swift for years. It's a bit like being a Disney adult. It's like, yeah, I know it does.

[A]

But daddy, I love him.

[B]

But daddy, I love him. Right? It's like. And they've been pointing to these rich, lyrical, incredible similes and metaphors and all the stuff that we know is in the catalog that is brilliant and genius. And then she comes out with something like this. And obviously non fans are starting to hear about now because, like, she's talking about Travis Kelsey's dick. Everyone's listening. Like, literally. I was at my friend's house this morning and, like, her boyfriend was like, oh, I heard she wrote a song about her boyfriend's dick. Like, he never listens to Taylor Swift. I was like, oh, this is like, what everyone's gonna know about Taylor for the next year. And, like, it's so all the girlies who have been dedicating their lives to saying she's the next Bob Dylan feel so betrayed. Like, Taylor, you're making me look like an idiot. And that's what makes it even funnier and better.

[A]

I think this song is perfect. I'm so glad it's on there. It's joyful.

[B]

It's joyful.

[A]

Was it on your first listen that you realized it was about a dick, or was it on the second? Interestingly, because I think it was maybe the second time. I think the third time I was like. And then the second time that I heard it, I was kind of like, oh.

[B]

So she released two versions on Spotify? Yes, she released a radio edit version, which for some reason, whatever. Like, when I tapped in on Spotify Friday morning, that was the version I got.

[A]

There's only one word change, though.

[B]

I know, but it does. I think it does make a difference. So. And I. That's the one thing where I do. I do like that she does have, like clever radio edits.

[A]

She does it well.

[B]

On Father Figure, it's like, my check's bigger.

[A]

My check's bigger.

[B]

Yeah, that's good. And like on this song, it's he. His love was the key that opened my skies. And obviously in the explicit version, it's my thighs she wants. She always wanted her music to be a safe place for 7 year olds to go. And she's got it, and she's got it. And like, it was just amazing to me, looking around the dance floor last night of the song that's been out for three days and everyone was dancing like it was a Jackson 5 song. And it does kind of sound like a Jackson 5 song. And it's so camp and it's so.

[A]

Dumb, so upbeat and so silly.

[B]

And even when she was introducing it in the cinema event. We will not call it a movie. It was a cinema event.

[A]

The thing we saw it was.

[B]

It's like all of her little monologues about these songs are like three or four minutes long at least. And for this one she just goes, knock wood. A song about superstitions and black cats and knocking on wood and stuff like that. And then it just goes. It's really fun. It's really charming.

[A]

I just think it's perfect. I think it's. I just think it's very. It's a very funny and actually fairly classy way to talk about your boyfriend's big dick. And also, like, frankly, we were talking about this earlier and, you know, who's not gonna catch some strays right now? The slammer for once. Cause we know from reputation that that man fucks.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What we don't know is Matty Healy. But I'm thinking no.

[B]

So I think the trajectory of her sex life for the last eight years or whatever, whenever it brings us back to day one, Joel Win. I think her and Joe Alwyn were having really great sex for a couple years at least. I think he's a real. Goes down on you like a champion. Really into it. Probably like great dirty talk as well.

[A]

Probably like a bit of play, bit.

[B]

Of fun and games, bit of maybe he'll tie you up.

[A]

Maybe this. Yeah.

[B]

But then I think they did suffer for some bad death during Folklore Evermore. Etc.

[A]

Yeah. They were stuck in the house together for a very long time. They've been inchless pockets.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I Would say no intimacy. Well, there's. There's too much intimacy and so.

[B]

Too much intimacy and therefore no eroticism. Yeah, exactly. And that's like last couple of years, it's like, oh, first it's every three months, then it's every six months, then it's like, yeah. How has it been a year since we. And that is incredibly common with many couples I've spoken to.

[A]

As you say, behind every beautiful woman, Amanda doesn't her. Enough.

[B]

I know. It's so funny, isn't it? That's a Lena Dylan phrase. Behind every woman is a man who's tired of her.

[A]

Well, listen.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A wonderful lineage for.

[B]

And so. Okay. And so. And I think during that time, as we know from Folklore and Evermore, which are two albums about Maddie Healy who won't stop texting her.

[A]

And he's texting her. Absolute filth.

[B]

And she's so excited by it. And then she finally gets with him and his dick doesn't work that well because he's on so many drugs.

[A]

And it's a real limp experience.

[B]

Yeah. And it's a lot of, like, stabby fingering, I think.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think they do have some great shags.

[A]

I'm sure they had some good ones. But like, also that probably, again, those moments when you're with someone who's like, the wrong side of. Of substances.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And everything's just a bit too messy and you're just a bit like, oh, I just. Wow. Okay. You've got no hand eye coordination right now.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You don't. You can't hit a rhythm.

[B]

No sense of object permanence.

[A]

What's going. Why. Why did you.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

So. No, please don't do that.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

There was probably a lot of that. And so then to move on to.

[B]

Like, some absolute top shelf, classic, uncomplicated P and V behavior.

[A]

And just like, he's going to throw you around. He is an athlete. Like, he spent his whole life running around and tackling men. Like, he's going to have incredibly good cardiovascular fitness, you know, like, you're going to be able to, like, had a guilt mirror off his cock. You know what I mean? And you'd just be. You would be delighted. It would be like Christmas and birthday all in one.

[B]

Right. And he probably doesn't drink very much.

[A]

No, he's gonna be very healthy.

[B]

He's gonna be very healthy. And like, people who don't drink, they want to have sex a lot more. Oh.

[A]

Because I'm so pleased for her.

[B]

Right.

[A]

A hard rock Is coming her way. Yeah, she's good. She's not being hockey about it. A redwood tree. I'm so pleased for her.

[B]

And it's. Do you know what it is? Of all the songs on this album, it is the biggest hen.

[A]

It's also, I think, one of the biggest wedding though, really. Because of course, radio it for the wedding hen. Do we even need to explain why this is a hen song?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No. However, put it on the dance floor at the wedding. People who haven't heard it. So your 7 year old again. This is the radio edit and it's.

[B]

All got that great sort of Motown.

[A]

Y feel to it. Yeah. You've got your grandma, you've got. Yeah. Some family members who don't really listen to the radio. They're enjoying knocking on wood. They're all miming. Knock, knock, knock on wood.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

They don't know because it's not on the first.

[B]

And then you catch eyes with the girlies who do know.

[A]

And they know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The first listen. You don't hear the penis innuendo. So it gets through once.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's only when the parents of the small children hear it maybe a couple weeks later that they're like, was my. Was my 7 year old dancing to a song about Travis Kelce's penis? And then it's kind of still funny because they didn't know. They're kids. No one knew. It's a wedding song and a hen song, but it's primarily a hen song. But it's one that gets the encore at the wedding and everyone loves it for different reasons.

[B]

Totally. It might, if the bride and groom are still doing the garter thing, might happen around then.

[A]

The bride and groom are having a moment. Maybe they steal off during this song for a little, you know, a little snug and a tiny bit of heavy petting. Important moment, right?

[B]

Important moment. Really.

[A]

A reminder that the wedding is also about being horny for those two people.

[B]

His love was the key that opened my thighs. Fucking. Good for you, bitch.

[A]

Good for you. Good for you.

[B]

Good for you, bitch.

[A]

Good for you.

[B]

I am delighted for her. She could have a great wedding.

[A]

She is.

[B]

She's doing the press at the moment. She's inviting everyone. She's inviting Graham Norton. She's inviting that invite. Where's our invite? Come on, we'll be cool.

[A]

We all know which songs to dance to.

[B]

Oh, next song is cancelled.

[A]

Enjoyable.

[B]

Wonderful.

[A]

Silly but enjoyable.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To me, my struggle with the song originally was I was kind of like people who actually get cancelled, like truly Cancelled. It's usually for, like, being pedophiles or Nazis.

[B]

So.

[A]

Yeah, I don't know that those are your people, but I think she's using it in a looser sense of the word.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

She also wrongly thinks that she has. But also.

[B]

Okay, for every person who's like, oh, we really didn't like that you, EG molested your relative, like. Or whatever. With respects to Woody Allen, the. But, like, for every one of that, there are 1 million more. Like, bling Lively was bitchy on the press tour.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Remember when she made that woman feel bad about being pregnant? I guess let's burn her hair off. It's like. It's just disproportionate. I do think the kind of cancellation she's referring to, which is basically like, did you enjoy yourself in public as a woman too much today?

[A]

Yeah, no, you're right. And I think when she does the intro on the Cinematic Experience, you kind of get that level. But I think, yeah, like, Taylor Swift has never actually been truly cancelled.

[B]

I don't know. Because she was briefly. That Kim and Kanye stuff. I think we forget how big it was. It was a big day.

[A]

It's been a look every album that we talk about of hers and this is the third we go. She's gonna have to get over that one day. And she still hasn't. And we said it last time and I'm sure we'll say it again. There will be in her next album another song about the Kim and Kanye thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a long, long old tail on this. Long old tail on this. But at least. So in Tortured Poets, the song that was mainly talking about it was thank youk, Amy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which sucked.

[B]

It didn't really suck, I do think.

[A]

But, like, Cancelled is really good. I will. I enjoy dancing to this because it's.

[B]

Because it moves the narrative on this has happened to me so many times. I now. And also it's like. It's like the private jet stuff.

[A]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Or whatever. Which obviously is. Is indefensible.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, you know, she's never far from catching strays from the culture or whatever. And I do like her positioning herself as being like, you know, something happens to Sabrina Carpenter. She's like, yeah, it's okay.

[A]

You'll be fine. Yeah, we'll get through it.

[B]

She literally says, you want to go get lunch? Or, like. Very charming the way she talks about it.

[A]

Totally. And things like Sophie Turner, like, getting criticism for, like, being at her job without her children, like. And Having to say, you know, they've got a father as well. Absolutely. I think the people that we're talking about, I just think cancelled is overused enough in our general. As a word. It's a term that people haven't really got an idea of what it means and what it doesn't mean. It's too loose and too broad. It covers too many bases between someone who has been rightly removed from the public eye for being a criminal and someone who's just doesn't need it dumb.

[B]

Is like experiencing pushbank.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think what she's right, though, that like. Like those do all sound the same. She said something in the interview where she was like, you don't have to be a public figure to feel canceled. Everyone has that moment where they just feel like several group chats are talking about them at once.

[A]

Oh, yeah, right. True, true. And you're like, oh, no, no, I know this is happening and it doesn't feel good. It is also just a bit of a banger, to be honest.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. It's got a vigilante. Shit.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Energy to it.

[B]

I prefer it to vigilante, to be honest.

[A]

Yeah. It's because it's.

[B]

I like that. It's like a protective vibe as well. I like. I like them covered in Gucci and in scandal. It's a sexy line. I think if there's any piece of merch I would like to own from this album, which I won't because she never makes good merch ever, is a T shirt. That's a line from this song, which is tone deaf and hot. Tone deaf and heart is so funny.

[A]

It is so funny. Taylor Swift's Team, if you're listening, just.

[B]

Come on, just tone deaf and heart.

[A]

Just offer up that bit of merch. Just be like. It would be funny and many people would buy it.

[B]

Yeah. Don't make me make it myself. I'm not that person.

[A]

I think you are, actually.

[B]

I don't make things. Okay.

[A]

They wouldn't make it.

[B]

If someone send it to me, I'd wear it.

[A]

Yeah, Amy too. Oh, fantastic. I think we're into our final two tracks, aren't we now?

[B]

I believe so.

[A]

Unless I've missed. Unless I. This album that I know extremely well came out three days ago, unless I'm.

[B]

Wrong about that, by the way. Canceled as a headlight song.

[A]

It's a what, sorry?

[B]

Cancelled as a headlight song.

[A]

Of course it's a headlight song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You don't sing that.

[B]

And also you're like, good things. I Like my friends. You've got your arms around your friends. You're really like, you're pulling them into the crook of your arm. Your. Your sweaty face is so near to their sweaty face.

[A]

This probably like, oh, we're such bad bitches.

[B]

We've smoked.

[A]

Yeah. It's similar part of the evening to the one where you to actually romantic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You've had your bitching session.

[B]

Yeah. And it's kind of like trying to get back that energy from earlier. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

You don't face at the wedding.

[B]

Yeah. The thing about any hen do, especially the ones that go on for longer than like a day, is like you need sort of redirect women sometimes. Because sometimes you'll just go outside and like there'll be four girls talking really intensely about like how one girl is not having a great time at work. And it's like, I'm so glad that we're all active listeners and that we're all empaths. But you guys need to break it up right now. We need to go back in and dance.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So we're gonna have cancelled Tone deaf and hot.

[A]

Get out here.

[B]

Yeah, get out here, you stupid bitch. Come on.

[A]

Get in, loser. We have to be tone deaf and hard.

[B]

No more talking outside. We are dancing indoors. Come on. Come on.

[A]

It does it like, it starts to play through the house and everyone's like, okay, we're back in.

[B]

We're back in.

[A]

Someone's drinking Prosecco straight from the bottle and getting it all down themselves. Great hen, grey hen. I can't wait to be there. Our penultimate song is Honey, Honey, a song that I'm like. I like it. Broadly unbothered by. But you like. And as we mentioned earlier, clarinet solo. So immediately a wedding song.

[B]

I love the clarinet solo immediately. It's beautiful. It is lovely instrument. Again, this is just Lover part two.

[A]

It is. It is the song that when she needs to have an instrumental.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like maybe as people. Maybe it's. Maybe it's a processional. Maybe it says people are arriving at the reception.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she needs like an acoustic instrumental cover of one of her songs. It's Honey. This is Taylor Swift's.

[B]

This would be a lovely song to walk down the aisle to an instrumentation of this song, you know?

[A]

Yeah. You don't. You don't want with the lyrics because then you get people saying that you don't can't fit in a skirt. But it's the right. It's got the right tune.

[B]

It's our melody. Yeah. And then it's a Slow. It's so down near the end of the night, the. The couples that are left, you know, all the people. All the people who, like, have babysitters have gone to relieve them. All the oldies have kind of gone home. But the few people who are like, they're in a couple, but maybe they don't have. They're not that deep in parenting yet.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

They're just like, oh, we're still party. We're still up, and we're sort of having a bit of a drunk, slow, sexy slow dance.

[A]

They're gonna have a lovely time. Yeah, it's gonna pay.

[B]

That's me, by the way. That's me at the wedding.

[A]

That's the actual version, but there's also. There is an instrumental version of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Prediction. It's gonna be in the next season of Bridgerton. That's one of the covers, you know, they do. It's gonna be in there. It's gonna be in there. Yeah.

[B]

And I like it.

[A]

I think it.

[B]

I think it's sweet.

[A]

I think it's very. It is very much the song of the. I've never been in love before. Not even one time.

[B]

It's her. Elizabeth Gilbert. It is her.

[A]

Elizabeth Gilbert.

[B]

This is my first time.

[A]

This is my first time being in love. I never. Every other person who ever called me a pet name actually hated me and was mean rather than. I mean. She's clearly been called a lot of pet names by a lot of men, and it was clearly fine at the time.

[B]

In the cinema event, she was like, oh, this is a. When people say they're talking, she's talking about Internet parlance. She's like, honey no. And like, sweetie no kind of thing. When she was talking, I was like, I get that you're talking about mean people on the Internet. You do sound a bit homophobic. You know, you do sound like you're doing Olymparist action as you say this. I was like, what happens if Ms. Americana Taylor, I thought you loved gay people.

[A]

You need to calm down. Remember.

[B]

Remember that.

[A]

Yeah, I think that was a bit of a. That was tone deaf and hot. What can we say it was.

[B]

It's a tone deaf and hard.

[A]

It was a tone deaf and hot moment from her. But, yeah, I think. Listen, I think it's quite sweet that she is absolutely adamant that the past doesn't exist, even that there is so, so much recorded material that exists that shows that she has, in fact been in love before. Is this the song where some of the lyrics are like, I thought it would Never happen. Is this the. Literally this? And you're like, honey, honey. You have thought it would happen. Happened multiple times.

[B]

Yeah, it really does. If you were hearing the song for the first time, you would think it was written by a woman who was like, oh, did this girl just never have a boyfriend before and she like was late to come into relationships. No, no. This girl's famously had many boyfriends.

[A]

Yeah. And just again, I just think this is a song where a lot of the lyrics really call back to lover for me. And in her intro she talks about how when they recorded this song, it was one of the first songs they recorded. They really were like, yeah, we realized we had a whole new album and it's so different. And then you listen to it and she's talking about like Summertime spritz, Pink skies. That's immediately the lover cover to me.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like wintergreen kiss. All mine. Very evermore. You could be my forever night stand. Honey. I feel like she's had that lyric in her phone since she wrote the song Lover. Yeah, like that. You know, you touch my face Redefined all of those blues. Very lover era. A lot of this song is very lover era. And I will not be buying the pictures.

[B]

Don't light my face.

[A]

Don't lie to my face again. You didn't write this, all of this for the first time then. But it is a really useful song for weddings.

[B]

And then finally we have Life of a showgirl.

[A]

Life of a Showgirl. Look, I like it fine. It's fine.

[B]

I've never been great now to be honest, on her like mid century play.

[A]

Yes, I know.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Your least favorite thing is when Taylor Swift is like. And I am like when she's being like Mr. Ben or something. She decided to wear a different hat for the day. And today her hat is showgirl.

[B]

And sometimes I find it so cringe.

[A]

You know, I was smoking my cigarette.

[B]

Yeah. I find her fiction very hard to handle. Her name was Kitty. Amen. Pretty and witty. It's giving to the city.

[A]

It's giving Carrie's novel in. And just like that.

[B]

It'S so Carrie's novel. It's the woman. It's very the woman.

[A]

It's very the woman. Stared out across the balcony at the carts. I think it's a lovely song. I think it is a lovely closer and it will be really good for closing tours and also weddings.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's like a closing.

[A]

It's a real wind down song and you need that. She hasn't always landed the wind Downs. Well, in her previous album. I really do enjoy that, the shift from, you know, you're sweet as a peach and soft as a kitten. And she's like, oh, my God, I'm looking at this woman. And she did this amazing performance with all the other dancehall girls, and by the end, she's like, those fucking bitches in the dance hall who hate me, but I. I won't die. I'll live forever.

[B]

It's crazy.

[A]

It's quite good. I like that. I like that shift. I like that. And it kind of speaks. So what? You know, again, the negotiating tables that we don't see behind the scenes in the music industry and the. Probably in many ways, if you're a woman in the music industry, your whole life is a really long hendu.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

You're constantly involved in certain dramas and who's the queen bee and who isn't God.

[B]

Your life is a hendu. It's a hendu or it's a wedding.

[A]

It's hendu or it's a wedding. And this song could be hendu as well. It could be end of the night for hendu. Yeah, it could be end of the night.

[B]

It feels like leaving a venue, doesn't it? It does feel like the whole song feels that way.

[A]

I mean, the end where they say, thank you for coming really makes it easy.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But it's also, again, one of the sort of. When I was listening on my own, my headphones. One of the greatest challenges I had with this album before I went out and danced to it is a challenge of my own making, which was the mental kind of alignment of Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce with Yzma and Kronk from the Emperor's new groove.

[B]

Yes. That's who they are.

[A]

An alignment that they have done nothing to dispel in any of their public appearances, where he just, like, plays into himbo and talks about how much he'd like to have an otter be his best friend.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, it's very Talking Squirrel.

[A]

So crunk. And I'm like, I have to try and mentally separate the two. And it's hard. And the other thing that makes this hard is this song. The life of a showgirl, because Yzma could be singing it. I mean, obviously, Yzma becomes the kings of, like, the Emperor's Advisor, but, like, she's wearing a showgirl outfit the whole time.

[B]

Oh, my God.

[A]

She wears the big ostrich feathers and that tits are out, and she's like an old showgirl.

[B]

She's getting closer and closer to Iseman.

[A]

She's getting closer and closer. And that thing of like, I'm immortal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm like, that's Yzma. She does the voice. She even does the voice where it's kind of like kind of cabaret.

[B]

A little baby doll.

[A]

It's Anzma voice.

[B]

Oh, my God. It was all coming to this.

[A]

I'm sorry about that.

[B]

Verifying the Emperor's new groove.

[A]

And I'm sorry that if anyone else who has watched the Emperor's new groove will now also have that stuck in their head when they listen to this album. But I like it. End of the night, end of the hen night, end of the wedding.

[B]

And it's also. It's two pals. It's her and Sabrina being like, yeah, we're both showgirls.

[A]

I guess if it's a karaoke hen, you can have a nice time with it.

[B]

Yeah, it's very. The bride and her maid of honor, isn't it? Doing a little karaoke at the end of the night and they still have the mics. They're like, thanks so much for coming. You know. Oh, go the girls, go the girlies.

[A]

Go the girlies, go the girlies.

[B]

And that's it. That's the life of a showgirl. It only took us two hours, which is about how long she's been making it.

[A]

And look.

[B]

So, in summary, I loved it. Our theory is flawless.

[A]

Our theory is flawless.

[B]

Where do we think this is going to sit in the. I mean, it's impossible to tell at.

[A]

This point, but we don't yet know which. Which songs will rise up to. To kind of be. Yeah. Metabolized into culture. We don't yet know which ones they'll be. We have our own personal favorites. Is it her strongest offering ever? No. No, it doesn't have to be. Not every single album.

[B]

Something that Gav said to me when I. He was like, what are you doing this weekend? I was like, well, I'm going to two Taylor Swift themed events with Jen, so you won't be seeing much of me at all. And he was like, oh, it's like the World cup for women. I was like, it's exactly the World cup for women. Because having observed him go through many World Cups over the years, not every World cup is. Is like history making. No, not every World cup is like a very exciting World Cup. Some World Cups. I just think she's scared of the house. And that's what this album is. It's bloody excuse. Scare of the house.

[A]

I just think it's. They've done it. She's done it. Well, she's done what we needed. We needed a bit of a bop. She needs something for the wedding and the hendu. Everyone else needs something for the wedding in the hendoo. And we had some collective time together dancing. And if you're expecting more from her, don't. You know, sometimes a song is just a song. Sometimes an album is just an album. Another showgirl is just a showgirl.

[B]

Thank you for coming.

[A]

Thank you. It's been another amazing night.

[B]

Okay, you gotta go so I can edit this podcast. Podcast so I can be the showgirl. Thank you.

[A]

Bye.

[B]

Good night. Good night. Pura brings smart fragrance and function together. Premium scents, smart app control and sleek design. And here's the best part. Your first set of fragrances is free. Hurry to pura.com now and upgrade your home today.