Tick, Tick... Boom!

Summary

Sentimental Garbage - Episode: "Tick, Tick... Boom!"

Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Guest: Kate Young
Release Date: February 6, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of Sentimental Garbage, host Caroline O'Donoghue engages in a deep and introspective conversation with her guest, Kate Young, about the recently released film adaptation of "Tick, Tick... Boom!" Directed by Lin-Manuel Miranda, the film explores the tumultuous journey of Jonathan Larson, the creator of the iconic musical "Rent." Both Caroline and Kate delve into their personal reactions to the film, its portrayal of artistic struggle, and the broader cultural implications surrounding storytelling and creative perseverance.

---

Overview of "Tick, Tick... Boom!"

Kate Young provides a comprehensive synopsis of "Tick, Tick... Boom!" highlighting that it is a semi-autobiographical stage show by Jonathan Larson, renowned for "Rent." The narrative centers around Larson at the age of 30, grappling with the decision to either continue his passion for creating art or succumb to the pressures of a conventional career in advertising. The film juxtaposes Larson's attempts to produce his ambitious musical "Superbia" with his work at the Moondance Diner, emblematic of his struggle to sustain his creative dreams while maintaining financial stability.

Notable Quote:

"The story is essentially him at 30, going, do I go and do something else or do I commit to this show and do I make this piece of art?"
— Caroline O'Donoghue [04:06]

---

Critical Analysis of the Film vs. Stage Show

Caroline expresses her initial discomfort with the film, noting that while she appreciated the songs and Andrew Garfield's performance, certain elements felt confrontational to her as a creative professional. Kate counters by emphasizing the film's sincerity and the authenticity Andrew Garfield brings to the portrayal of Larson. They discuss the narrative structure, where significant events in Larson's life, including the success of "Rent" and his untimely death, remain off-screen, focusing instead on the immediate creative and personal dilemmas he faces.

Notable Quote:

"I don't believe the song because it's like, I don't think you were ever going to give up."
— Caroline O'Donoghue [16:50]

---

Personal Reflections on Creativity and Career Struggles

Both hosts draw parallels between Larson's artistic journey and their own experiences in creative fields. Caroline shares her challenges with publishing her second book, despite previous successes, underscoring the unpredictability and relentless demands of creative work. Kate relates by recounting her struggles in the theater industry, emphasizing the emotional toll of creative rejection and the societal pressures to conform to stable career paths.

Notable Quote:

"The only thing you can expect from your work, you cannot expect it to write or cash checks for you."
— Caroline O'Donoghue [12:54]

---

Social and Systemic Issues in Storytelling and Art

The conversation shifts to the systemic barriers in the arts, particularly regarding who gets to tell certain stories. Caroline critiques Jonathan Larson, a straight white man, for representing marginalized communities during the AIDS epidemic, discussing the complexities of privilege in storytelling. They acknowledge the broader issue within musical theater and other art forms where the most affected voices often lack the platforms to share their narratives authentically.

Notable Quote:

"It's a systemic problem of who gets to tell stories and who has the privilege to do that."
— Kate Young [22:28]

---

Comparison with Other Works

Caroline and Kate compare "Tick, Tick... Boom!" with other musicals like "West Side Story" and the Tolkien biopic starring Nicholas Hoult. They explore how these works remain relevant by encapsulating timeless themes through their music and storytelling, despite evolving societal contexts. The discussion highlights the challenge of making a 1990s story resonate with contemporary audiences, particularly regarding Larson's rigid dichotomy between artistic integrity and commercial success.

Notable Quote:

"Tick, Tick... Boom! is such a 90s piece of work. [...] very much like, fly too close to the sun because you must be sincere."
— Kate Young [39:28]

---

Sincerity vs. Whimsy in Musicals

Kate Young elaborates on the role of sincerity in musicals, contrasting it with whimsy. She appreciates the genuine emotion Andrew Garfield brings to Larson's character, making the film resonate despite its sometimes whimsical elements. The hosts discuss the balance between heartfelt storytelling and theatrical extravagance, emphasizing that sincerity can make or break the impact of a musical.

Notable Quote:

"Andrew Garfield in this is incredibly sincere. It's so many sincere men in a way that I just don't think you always see."
— Kate Young [65:49]

---

Age Milestones and Life Choices

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to reflections on turning 30 and beyond. Caroline shares her personal anxieties about career progression and life milestones, such as starting a family. Kate discusses her decision to remain childfree, highlighting the societal pressures and personal freedom associated with such choices. Their dialogue underscores the intersection of age, creativity, and personal fulfillment.

Notable Quote:

"I have to write something else because I think that's what writing is. Like, you just have to sit down and write the next thing."
— Kate Young [35:26]

---

Concluding Thoughts

As the conversation wraps up, Caroline and Kate acknowledge the depth and complexity of "Tick, Tick... Boom!" while expressing differing personal reactions to the film. They appreciate its sincere portrayal of artistic struggle, even if its narrative choices don't entirely resonate with them. The episode concludes with mutual appreciation for each other's perspectives and the shared challenges faced by creatives in balancing passion with practicality.

Notable Quote:

"I love this conversation so much. Like, you want the movies growing on me because [...] it's the most beautiful and practical thing."
— Caroline O'Donoghue [86:12]

---

Key Takeaways

• Artistic Perseverance: The film underscores the relentless pursuit of creative dreams amidst societal and personal pressures.

• Systemic Barriers: There is a critical examination of who gets to tell certain stories, highlighting issues of privilege and representation in the arts.

• Sincerity in Storytelling: Genuine emotion and sincerity are pivotal in making musicals resonate, even when thematic elements are whimsical.

• Life Choices and Creativity: Balancing personal life milestones with creative ambitions presents unique challenges, particularly as individuals age and their priorities evolve.

---

Recommended Viewing

Both hosts highly recommend watching "Tick, Tick... Boom!" for its heartfelt depiction of the creative struggle and Andrew Garfield's compelling performance. Despite their mixed feelings, they acknowledge the film's emotional sincerity and its ability to provoke meaningful conversations about art, life choices, and personal fulfillment.

---

Thank you for tuning into this episode of Sentimental Garbage. Stay tuned for more engaging discussions on the cultural phenomena that we love yet are often made to feel ashamed of.

Transcript

[Kate Young]

Valentine's Day is coming up, and for me, there's Only one place I 1-800-Flowers.com. this year, 1-800-Flowers wants to make sure you're a Valentine's hero with an exclusive double the roses for free. When you buy one dozen, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen roses. It's the perfect way to say I love you without breaking the bank. Trust me. 1-800-FLowers always delivers. To claim your double the roses offer, go to 1-800-flowers.com acast. That's 1-800-flowers. Com acast.

[Caroline]

Hello, and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where we talk about the culture we love that society sometimes makes us feel ashamed of. My name is Caroline, and why do I want to play the play game? And hey, what a way to spend the day. I get to talk to Kate Young today.

[Kate Young]

We get to talk today. Hello. Hello.

[Caroline]

Coming in on a very giddy vibe today.

[Kate Young]

Very giddy vibe, which is a really.

[Caroline]

Good time to tell you that I did not like this movie.

[Kate Young]

Wait, this is really good. What a great conversation we're gonna have.

[Caroline]

I know.

[Kate Young]

I was like, how am I gonna tell about. Yeah, no, you have to tell me. Of course you have to tell me. Okay.

[Caroline]

Okay.

[Kate Young]

Fascinating. This is why we've not talked about it in the last two days.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. Because the thing what's interesting about this is that, like, the ways in which I didn't like it were so individually confronting to me. Interesting as somebody who is a creative person who makes things and stakes their life and happiness often on the outcome of those things, rightly or wrongly. And so there was elements of this, obviously. I loved a lot of the songs. I thought that some of the direction was really inspired. Andrew Garfield's an incredible performer, but there was just something about it that pissed me off.

[Kate Young]

This is so much fun to talk about.

[Caroline]

I know. Let's start from the.

[Kate Young]

Cause I so intensely pitched this to you.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Young]

This was like my pitch.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

We had conversations this week about alternative topics because you hadn't seen it yet and we weren't sure. And. Oh, fascinating that two days ago I didn't get a call going, no, we are doing something different. It's shit. We can't talk about this. Not shit, but, like, you didn't enjoy it and I don't want to talk about it.

[Caroline]

No, I do want to talk about it very much, actually. But before we get into all of that, I want you to tell me the plot of Tick, Tick, Boom, because I think this is going to be one of those movies that a lot of people will not have heard of. Not have heard of. It's fairly recent. It came out on Netflix, I think, during the Pandemic.

[Kate Young]

Yep. Big time.

[Caroline]

And, you know, that was a time where lots of things came out and.

[Kate Young]

Real overload of stuff online.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

And I think because it didn't happen in a cinema, it happened on people's screens at home. There was a real. Because it's Netflix as well. Like, unless the algorithm is pushing it at you or people that, you know, are suggesting that you watch it.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

You're not gonna see it. It's not gonna flash up in front of your screen and be like, you should watch this tonight.

[Caroline]

And also, what I really respected about it is something that I think people were looking for during COVID which were. They were looking for frictionless entertainment.

[Kate Young]

Oh, big time.

[Caroline]

Like, lots of people watch, like, the Sopranos or Sex and the City or whatever. And, like, you know, Sopranos has fiction, has friction in it in terms of, like, people getting killed or whatever. But it's expected, you know, there's a. Yeah.

[Kate Young]

And it's also.

[Caroline]

There's a pattern and a rhythm to it, you know.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Whereas what I really admire this for is that, like, it kind of almost reminded me of, like, the Muppet Show.

[Kate Young]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline]

Where it's like, people are going to behave.

[Kate Young]

People.

[Caroline]

The Muppets. The Muppets are going to behave within the strata of what a character is. Piggy will always behave in an egotistical way. Kermit will always be sort of like fawning and resigning, but professional.

[Kate Young]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He'll get there. He'll do the job.

[Caroline]

People will behave within the archetype of their character, but there will be a madness to it and a kind of like a. Like, oh, what? I don't know. What are they doing? What is it for? Who is it for? How am I? I.

[Kate Young]

Yes. Who is it? And.

[Caroline]

And that's what tick, tick, boom, sort of remind me of. And. And I actually think it's going to be this thing that I will end up liking, maybe even by the end of this conversation. But please tell me more about it. I interrupted you in the first sentence.

[Kate Young]

So in terms of. For people who have not seen it, for people who do not know what it is, it is a semi autobiographical, a stage show that was written in the 90s by a musical theater writer who wrote Rent, called Jonathan Larson. So his most famous thing is Rent, and he also wrote this show, which has had many different lives. He did it as a solo Autobiographical piece on stage a couple of years later. He then had two people who were with him who did the roles. And that is kind of a thing that you see in the film. And then it became sort of a. A different version and a different version. And it is now this film version. I have never seen it on stage, so I've not got a relationship with it before this film. And I think that that has been an incredibly interesting thing. Like, my love for it is so strong, which is very unusual for me, given that I have no relationship with, I would say, the work of Jonathan Larson. I've never seen Rent. I've never, like. It's not a thing that ever super appealed to me. But this film specifically really appealed to me. And we'll get to, like, why it did. But the story is essentially this. About two shows. The story is about Tick Tick Boom, which is a show that Jonathan Larson is writing. And he is performing on stage with two people. But it's also mostly about him trying to write Superbia, which is this massive musical that he wrote in his 20s. And it's 1990. He is turning 30. He has written this musical and they are having a reading of it where he has got a band that he has fought to have multiple members. Cause it's kind of a rock musical, which is new for lots of Broadway. And he's got a big cast and they do a reading of it. And the whole film essentially, is this sort of. I'm 30. Something I'm doing has to hit. I have to make work because I'm not making any money. He is working in the Moondance Diner, which is incredibly famous in loads of different bits of art. It's such a satisfying thread through stories set in New York. Is like, who is working at the Moondance Diner at that time? And he is working there, he's earning that money. But he is living in a shed, you know, a flat that he shares. And Jonathan Larson really did live in this flat until he was 35. And the flat never had the heating. It never had anything like an illegal wood burner, a legal wood burner. Like a very tricky sort of living situation to see as aspirational, or a thing you should. You might want to have, once you hit an age where all of your friends are going and doing something else. When everybody's like, I. I tried to make art and it didn't happen, and I'm gonna go and do something else. And the story is essentially him at 30, going, do I go and do something else or do I commit to this show and do I make this piece of art? And is. Is that worth it? Is it worth it to go and make this art? Is it worth, like, the sacrifice in relationships? Is it worth my living situation? Is it worth the sort of, like, uncertainty of what this looks like? And the frankly, like, mad idea that one of your ideas might work enough to make a show on Broadway like that is such an unlikely truth. Unless you're in our social circle.

[Caroline]

Unless you're specifically.

[Kate Young]

Unless you're specifically touching that this week. That's happening this week. But, yes, that is. You know, it is such an unlikely outcome that I think the whole story is just a. What. What am I going to do about the fact that all I can do is this, That I desperately want to tell these stories, that this is my thing. And the kind of reckoning with what happens when the thing you've poured your soul into for a decade is a thing that nobody else wants to see.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

And that is kind of the story of it is like, that couple of months, it's about a week where he is turning 30. He's having this first reading, and he's reckoning with what the rest of his career might look like and life might look like.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Especially when there are these, like, options that are opening. Like, the legit options that are opening up in front of him. Like, his best friend, Michael, works in advertising. He used to want to be an actor, and now he has this, like, unbelievably 90s office and unbelievable 90s flat. And that's sort of one avenue that's sort of presented to him. And the other avenue is his girlfriend, Susan.

[Kate Young]

Susan. Yeah.

[Caroline]

Who is a dancer who has been injured in the past, but is also just kind of getting tired of it. And she's been offered this position as a kind of a teach. Live in.

[Kate Young]

Outside of New York.

[Caroline]

Outside of New York.

[Kate Young]

So, like, we could leave Manhattan. Our life could be really good, and it could look different to this.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And so the reasons for him to keep pursuing this dream are like. It's like they're, like, so thin.

[Kate Young]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline]

Because like it says in this sort of opening monologue where it's like, you know, I am. I've been turned down by every record label and movie company and theater company. And, like, I have. I have basically no evidence that I should keep continuing this other than Stephen Sondheim was nice to me once.

[Kate Young]

Yes. Stephen Sondheim came to a reading and said, I like what you're doing, kid. And then left.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And then even, like, Then left and, like, then didn't.

[Kate Young]

Then doesn't do anything about that.

[Caroline]

Doesn't do anything with that, which is so real to me, because I think when you're, you know, a young person creating things, or even not, you don't have to be really young anyone creating things. And this is something I think about a lot because I'm gearing up for another press run of stuff, and I'm doing a lot of those pieces that are, like, what I wish I could hold myself. And I always feel like such a fraud writing those sets of pieces. But going back to the idea that you think when you're creating something, that one person has the ability to change your life, one phone call has the ability to change your life, or one sort of chance meeting. I remember back in the day when it was all about sharing your writing on Twitter, and some random editor from stylist would follow you and you'd be like, oh, that's my life.

[Kate Young]

That's happening. That's happening.

[Caroline]

That's happening.

[Kate Young]

That's all they need to do.

[Caroline]

Walk around for the rest of the day with, like, a sense of destiny and telling everybody about it and telling your mom about it as, like, a soothe, because she doesn't know what you're still doing in London, you know, of.

[Kate Young]

Course, yes, we've really lived that.

[Caroline]

We've really lived that and like, that. And now kind of having had, like, some success in my chosen career of, like, realizing that there is no such thing as that phone call or that follow on Twitter, maybe there are for, like, the tiniest amount of people. Like, I know people who, like, got their tweets seen by, like, a TV.

[Kate Young]

Show, and then they got hired. And then they got hired. Yeah, sure. But it's rare. That's not a story to aspire to.

[Caroline]

No, it's so rare. And it's like, what is more common in the very rarefied field of, like, people getting their work notice at all is like, you acquire a vibe.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Through a long time, you slowly acquire a vibe. And you may not acquire fans necessarily, but you like people. I don't know the kind of. The world of your work gets associated with it, with the people you're hanging out with, the people who are making stuff like yours or whatever. And the vibe gets big enough that it's enough for somebody to take a.

[Kate Young]

Financial gamble on it, sustains the work, like, the vibe.

[Caroline]

But even that somebody who takes a financial gamble on it will represent a board of people who have decided it's.

[Kate Young]

A good idea financially and Also that. That. That isn't then the end of the story.

[Caroline]

No.

[Kate Young]

Like that one person taking a financial gamble or that board taking a financial gamble is like, okay, so that's the next bit.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

And then question mark. And then is that going to work? Is that. Are people going to engage with that work? Are you going to write more? Are you going to do something different? Are you. You know, all of it is not one answer that is just lands you in a place of done.

[Caroline]

I totally. And I'm finding that like, specifically where I am, like, right in this moment in time right now, I'm six months out for my next book coming out. Last book did the best of any book I've ever written. And I had foolishly assumed, despite the fact that I have been in this. I have been a professional writer since I was 19. Like, I wasn't doing it for a living, but I was like, doing it in public.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

I was 19. And like, I thought that I had cleared some fence that I would no longer have to jump anymore and that doors would just fly open. I was like, oh, no. Unless you're like doing something that's like a direct sequel of the Totally. That you've just done. You are back at the beginning again.

[Kate Young]

It's like, here's the gate, here's the locked door again. Jump again. Jump again. Like, welcome Return. Hi. A new book. Yeah. Your work at the door. Thank you.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So it's like there is. And what I loved about this is the final realization that the only thing that you can expect from your work, you cannot expect it to write or cash checks for you.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Vis a vis your life, your happiness, your whatever.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But the only thing you can ever really come back to is that it's a really good way to spend your time. It's a really nice way to spend a day.

[Kate Young]

To spend your day.

[Caroline]

You know?

[Kate Young]

Yeah. That it's like if. If you can make it work, it's a privilege to tell stories and to spend your day doing stuff. Making stuff.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I've. I've had the best year of my career ever. And the best time I've had in the last year creatively has been like taking three days after I had a movie with a friend. Yeah. You know what I mean? And like, of course it is like sitting opposite someone, like, just playing, I guess, you know. Yeah. And that's kind of what this movie is about yet.

[Kate Young]

And yet.

[Caroline]

And yet, like, this is all subject matter. I am Goo Goo Gaga fucking hair. And yet I found this several things about this movie, very hard to ignore and got in the way of my embracing him as a character and embracing this struggle. And I think they're already interesting, actually. So, again, it's a fucking admirable piece of work because it poked corners of my brain that I. And it unset jelly that I thought was set already. Kind of fascinating, you know what I mean?

[Kate Young]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

I love stories about art. I love people who pursue it. I love to create or whatever. And here. Here are my issues.

[Kate Young]

Come on.

[Caroline]

This is so fun, actually. First of all, I think the way the things that the movies say that it's about and the struggle that it purports to be at the corner at the center of this movie, which is that, like, when do you persevere? When do you give up? When are you fooling yourself? When is it time to move on from these dreams or whatever? I feel like it doesn't actually have the courage of its convictions because this was a movie directed by Lin Manuel Moran. Indeed. Somebody who plugged away at it as a public school teacher for years and then became the dude, like the Andrew Lloyd Webber of our generation kind of thing. The guy. And he's obviously obsessed with this man and loves this man so much.

[Kate Young]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Jonathan Larson, rather. And also Jonathan Larson wrote Rent. Like, that is the. All of the story of this story happens off screen.

[Kate Young]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Which is that this is a person who was observing his best friends and his musical theater community. He was watching them vanish because of the. The AIDS epidemic. And that's like a really. It's obviously dreadful in every way. And, like, Rent was the first mainstream piece of art that, like, a secondary school could go to. See, that was about this thing that people were completely silent about. It changed how AIDS is spoken about. It helped change the face of musical theater, and that's so important. And because those things are real, it means that the struggle and like that is everywhere. In the movie, you see Jonathan visiting his friends who have hiv. You see him watching, like, horrible. People on the news say that if gay people just stopped having sex, then we'd have rights. You see him, like, biking on his way to work. And the pink triangle. What are they called again? That Charity? Speak up or something.

[Kate Young]

Speak up. Speak.

[Caroline]

Well, look at this symbol for HIV or whatever. And you see him being informed by this. And while that is touching and moving, it's like, first of all, I never believe he's gonna give up. And there's a beautiful song called Johnny Can't Decide, and I think it's my favorite Song. It's one of the best songs in the movie. I think maybe it is the best song in the movie. And it's been going around in my head all day and I love it. But I also don't believe the song because it's like, I don't think you were ever going to give up. You never seriously entertained working in advertising and you never seriously entertained following your girls. So it does just feel like untrue. Like, it feels like the movie's kind of a lie in a way.

[Kate Young]

I think this is the really fascinating thing about it because it kind of opens with this promise that everything in this film is true, apart from the bits that Jonathan made up. Yeah, that's how it's, like, given to you as autobiography. And the challenge of Tick Tick Boom. The challenge of this film really is that it is both a biopic about this man who wrote Rent, and it's also a production of his own only semi autobiographical story. So his actual Susan was a real person, but her name was not Susan. His girlfriend who was a dancer. They were actually on again, off again until he died in the mid-90s. So their real relationship is not represented in the stage, in the performance of Tick Tick Boom and in his writing of Tick Tick Boom. Because it feels, I guess, and I am guessing here, obviously, but I think it's more narratively sort of satisfying to do a song that's like, she's leaving instead of like she's staying. And we were kind of on and off and we had this thing, like, you know, of course. Of course you make a thing happen. And so it is this challenge of telling a story that is both a real story of a man's life and the lies he told about it in a semi autobiographical piece of work and how those things conflict. And I do agree that it is challenging in there that I also don't believe he's gonna give up. I don't believe.

[Caroline]

Not just because, you know, he doesn't historically, but because he was never going to.

[Kate Young]

Indeed. No, not because I come to the film with a knowledge that this man wrote Rent, but because, of course, he doesn't. Like, of course he's not going to. And I also, I do genuinely think that he is presented to you as a character as well as a real man, but presented to you as a character of somebody who has an arrogance that isn't going to give up. Like, I don't. I truly don't think that the film wants you to think he might give up. Do you think that really it is about finding a way to keep going and that he was always going to find a way to keep going. And I do think that the Johnny can't decide and stuff. I think there's a reason that it's a song that happens in third person. I think that it's not really about him. It is about a fiction. And I think that you are constantly at play with this character of Jon Onstage, writer of Jonathan Larson, and then Andrew Garfield playing Jonathan Larson as both Jonathan a man and Jonathan a man who wrote about himself as a character called John. Like all of those things conflicting in.

[Caroline]

The film and can be so. Also summarized by. I think this is a Brian Eno line. But it was like he said something to the degree of like, every successful person will tell you not to give up. And you will not hear from the. You will not hear from the unsuccessful people who gave up. Of course, it makes me think of like a how I met your mother storyline where. Well, I don't know if you're familiar with that show.

[Kate Young]

I used to be the concept of it, yes. I've not watched the whole thing, but.

[Caroline]

There was a whole thing where Alyson Hannigan's dad is a deadbeat board game maker and he like, just like, you should never give up on your dreams. And everyone's like, you really need to.

[Kate Young]

Give up on this.

[Caroline]

And I'm just like, I'm so into representations of people giving up.

[Kate Young]

Yes, yes. But I think that what this. I do think that what this really does is the important thing at the end of this film is that he gives up on the musical. I do think that is he gave up on that dream because I think that the whole thing is like he sees this dream as one linear thing where he writes a musical in his 20s and that is the musical that is going to make his name and it's going to be on Broadway and this is going to happen and it's going to happen. And like, he is so linear in how he's seeing it. And there is a point at the end of the film that makes him go like, I have to write something else. And that is the thing he gives up on. And what he's not giving up on is like, I love this. I can't imagine another life. I want to do this. I was never going to go into advertising. But what I do have to do is write something about the world around me. But he spends his 20s writing this like mad futuristic musical that sounds genuinely fascinating, but as discussed in the film, probably bad. Like, definitely unstageable yeah, yeah, yeah. And that instead, this whole thing is just like, what if you did waste 10 years writing a thing? And what if that taught you everything about writing the next thing?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

And that. That feels like the story. I'm invested in that version of him giving up and going, okay, I can move on from that musical. And there's things that I'm also critical of. Like, I have read a lot about Jonathan Larson and the way in which a straight white man who never contracted HIV has become a voice in the 90s of bringing the sort of AIDS epidemic and the crisis in. Particularly in New York, to public awareness. And his. The sort of real challenge of that being a story that he is telling and a story that has. Has his name on it, where he is talking about the struggles of his friends around him and people who are outside of his community as well. And I've read a lot about that, and I've got a lot of feelings about that. It's not really the place for them because it's me basically going like, yeah, I think that this is a massive systemic problem of who gets to tell stories and who has the privilege to do that and all of these things.

[Caroline]

But it's also very endemic to musical theater, specifically because we just did west side Story. And that is about sort of like gang violence within the Puerto Rican community. Written by Leonard Bernstein and Stephen Sondheim.

[Kate Young]

Yes, indeed. Our friend Stephen Sondheim. From the film.

[Caroline]

Yeah, from this film.

[Kate Young]

From this film.

[Caroline]

So. But I think that is a fascinating subject in general, though, in that. Yes. Like, it is a systemic problem of, like, the people who are, like, most affected by these issues not often being in the position of storyteller. That is awful.

[Kate Young]

Yes.

[Caroline]

But also that thing of, like, trying to work within the system that you have.

[Kate Young]

Absolutely.

[Caroline]

Which is that, like, the way that these creators are not trusted to tell their own story. And I had this moment the other day because I was posting something on social media about the puberty blockers ban.

[Kate Young]

Oh, yes.

[Caroline]

That has just come into effect, which is heartbreaking and terrible for all different reasons. But I said something to the effect of, you know, I write for young people. I go into schools. My. My books for young people have trans characters in them. I have, like, talked to trans kids. Like, I think we have this idea that, like, I think we have this idea that, like, trans kids are these, like, emboldened theater kids who's taken their interest in dresses too far or something, when in reality, it's like, you meet these kids and they're suffering and.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And like they come up to you and they like something that's happened twice is that I have had to sign a kid's book. Their name that they told me that their name was in front of their teacher. And then they will come back at lunchtime with their real name.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's. It's this. It's the worst. It's the worst thing in the world. Of course it's the best thing to have a kid trust you. It's the worst thing to think. Like even your teacher who arranged for me to come here.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. Yeah. Who knows this book?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

Who knows what's in this book? You do not feel safe in this context.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

You do not feel like that's the thing you could do in front of them. That's so heartbreaking.

[Caroline]

It's so heartbreaking. And it's. And it's also why I will just never fucking back to call on this issue.

[Kate Young]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

But like also the I then someone messaged me, someone super nice and well meaning being like this. She said this really affected me. I wish I heard more stories like this. And I kind of felt like there are stories like this. If you want to listen to the.

[Kate Young]

People who have to tell them, you need to follow those people. Then people are telling those stories. They really are. I promise. Like come on, follow them.

[Caroline]

Right. But then it made me realise that there's a responsibility to translate the things that you've experienced to screen, but it's also a responsibility to translate the things that you have witnessed.

[Kate Young]

No, definitely. Right, exactly that.

[Caroline]

Because we have the system that we have and it's like changing slowly but not quickly enough. And I line that like Jonathan says in the film, which really affected me. Maybe I didn't hate it. Is that like 45 minutes to go.

[Kate Young]

I'm gonna get you.

[Caroline]

He's in this kind of self hating monologue of like, like the, the pressure of what he's going through artistically but also the pressure of his friend group and the pressure of relationship. All these things. The pressure of money. And he says like, you know, no one's doing anything or at least not quickly enough and I can't do it.

[Kate Young]

I can't do it fast enough. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And that is such a real thing as well because like the, the, the issues of the day always feels like the issue of today rather than something that will still be an issue in two years when your thing is done.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

You know, totally.

[Kate Young]

You're so right. Like it is his, his friend Michael in the film is called Matt in real life and is a true friend of his and based on a real person. And he was definitely living in a community who were dealing with this on a daily basis and engaged with it. And so, yeah, I think that it is really interesting that the thing that kind of. And of course, this is like, a narrative neatness, but the thing that pushes him into writing Tick, Tick, Boom and then writing Rent, which is, again, narratively convenient. He'd actually started writing Rent before he did Tick, Tick Boom. It's all of that. But is his agent going, like, maybe next time try and write something, you know, like, look around you and write about people. And the thing that, you know. And I think that felt very, like, you know, on the nose in a moment of, like, yes, this is this. I'm gonna direct you towards the end of this thing, which is, yes, he made a musical, guys. He made a musical in the end. But also, like, I. I find incredibly affecting because I started telling the story before, and then we got distracted by Tash. So Tash texted me at the end of 2021, and we'd all had a weird two years, you know, and we'd kind of. So we'd been out and had dinner, like, a month before that. And I'd. I'd had a really tricky year because in the middle of the year, I sent a book I'd been working on for seven years to my agent, and it was a big murder mystery set in the 1940s in, like, in a town in England. And I had. I kind of, like, writing it for ages. Felt like just a project I was doing a project I was doing. Like, I didn't think of myself as a fiction writer. I write cookbooks. So it's fine. It's just like, this fun thing I'm doing on the side. And then, of course, for probably the final year and a half of writing it, I was very much like, no, this is a book now. And I actually think it's good. I think it's really good. And I didn't want to. I didn't know how to, like, manage that feeling, but I was like, no, I'm really proud of this story that I've been telling and this whole narrative neatness. And I've. I've made. You know, I've written 110,000 words down on my laptop, and I. And then I sent it off to my agent, and she had it for probably three weeks. And then she was like, I really want to talk to you about the book. Come to London and We'll go and have lunch. And I went to this meeting being.

[Caroline]

Like, she's gonna offer me a bag of money.

[Kate Young]

She's gonna say like, I've talked to this person and I think we should send it to this person. I think we should send it to this person. And we sat down and we just had this meeting where she was like, yeah, this book is like nine different things. It's like, I don't know whether it's like a family drama, whether it's, you know, a domestic thing, whether it's the murder mystery. Like, she's like, it's not thrillery enough to be like a thriller or plotty enough to be a murder mystery. It's too like character based. It's this, it's this. She's like, have you read Patricia H.E. smith's book on writing thrillers? I was like, yeah.

[Caroline]

When someone comes to your meeting with advice on a book, you should be kind of like, advice for a self help book, essentially.

[Kate Young]

I've read that, yeah. Not only are you recommending a self help book, I read it and I just had this like incredibly tricky two hour meeting just sitting there with her going like, there is nobody I could send this to. Nobody is gonna publish this. And there's maybe a version of this book that could be publishable. Like, I think you should go away. I think you should think about what you wanna write. I think you should think about like what story you really wanna tell. Strip bits away from it. Yeah, tell this. She's like this, this really lovely, like little romance in the heart of it. There's this lovely scene where one of the girls goes to London and meets this girl she fell in love with at school. And that's really lovely, like, you know, maybe more of that or whatever else. And I kind of went away from that meeting and just went like, I guess I'm not a writer then.

[Caroline]

Oh, even though you had written several books?

[Kate Young]

Yeah, yeah, like had written and had published several cookbooks, you know. And I was like, I guess I'm just not a writer. Guess that's the truth for me. And I guess I just. And I went away. My agent like emailed me a month later and she's like, any do you want to have a follow up chat? Like, how are you feeling? And I was like, oh, it's in a drawer. And I just kind of said to her like, yeah, no, I'm really thinking about it, I'm making plans. And I was like, I'm never gonna look at that book again. Like that Book is dead to me, obviously. I cannot pick that book up and feel like a writer again. I will simply feel like a sad loser. And so I had kind of spent then a couple of months. I was writing a cookbook at the same time, but I'd spent a couple of months being like, well, if I was going to write something else, what would I want to write? And I kind of had this sort of idea for a bit of a. Because I had really enjoyed writing this chapter where this girl goes and sees this girl she fell in love with at school. And I was like, maybe I write, like, a little Romancy thing or a little, like, you know, maybe I could do something like that. And I had, like, talked to Ella about the plot of it and talked to, like. And then I. Tash and I went out for dinner, and I sort of just, like, pitched her the whole plot of what I could imagine, what eventually became a novel that I did write and sort of said, yeah, I think it's like this. And then this happens. And then I think, like, these characters do this thing. And she was like, this is fun and great and, you know, amazing. And I kind of went home. Yeah, maybe next year I, like, spend a little time doing that. And she texted me in December, and it was, like, cold and bleak, and it had been a pandemic for two years. And she said, I think you should watch this film. Tick, tick, boom. And I was like, I'd just done my yoga for the day. I'd just done my Adrienne. So I was literally on my yoga mat when I got this message.

[Caroline]

Where's the knighthood?

[Kate Young]

I know. Where is her knighthood?

[Caroline]

Dame Adrian.

[Kate Young]

Dame Adrian got us all through. And I do. And so I was, like, still on my yoga mat. And I was like, oh, I don't really. I haven't loved a film musical in a really long time.

[Caroline]

Yeah, they rarely break through.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. And I was like, I don't feel like I'm gonna, like, love this. I don't really have any feelings about Andrew Garfield as a performer. Like, I don't. I'm not coming to this with a sense. And I was like, I don't really love Rent. Like, you know, I've listened to a bunch of the songs. It's never really grabbed me, so maybe. Maybe not for me. And I just turned it on, and I watched the whole thing on my yoga mat. I was like, I'm just gonna have five minutes. I'm gonna watch the first five minutes. It's, like, lying on my yoga mat. On my floor. Just, like, head to the side. Literally that.

[Caroline]

Just, like, a dog has been neutered.

[Kate Young]

Yeah, literally. My sofa was there, and I did not get up to it. I just watched this whole thing beginning to end. And the bit. There's a bit at the end which. You should watch it. People should watch it. Maybe at the end of this conversation, you will also recommend that people watch it, but.

[Caroline]

Oh, I fully recommend people watch it.

[Kate Young]

But there's a conversation at the end. So the sort of real moment is when his. When Jonathan has done this staged reading. It's been building up to this the whole time. The film is also kind of about him writing the last song, but only because that feels like a dramatic thing.

[Caroline]

That he might be doing.

[Kate Young]

It's really like.

[Caroline]

That was another problem I had with fate.

[Kate Young]

Me, too. I don't buy that. That feels fake, and that's kind of fine. I'm like, really? That is just supposed to stand in for the challenge of writing a thing, but you want to tell a story in a week because it's a film, and a story that's told over eight years of how to write this musical is not the story you want to tell because it's not as interesting. So you want to make the final dramatic thing tricky, which is it needs one more song. It needs a big, like, moment in the musical. You've not written it yet. The reading's on Friday. And that's not real, but sure, I get it.

[Caroline]

But it drives the plot.

[Kate Young]

It drives the plot. Exactly. And it drives his, like, panic with it, and it drives. Gives, like, this sort of energy of the whole film. But his agent calls him afterwards and. And sort of says, like, so funders have, like, people who are producers who might have funding. They've come. Like, mostly his friends have come. Most of the audience are people he knows. Stephen Sondheim showed up, but, you know, also some people who have money came, and he. He's definitely has this moment where he's like, maybe it's gonna happen. I think it is gonna happen. Like, they did really well. Everyone seemed.

[Caroline]

The vibe in the room.

[Kate Young]

The vibe was good. And his agent calls, and she's like, yep, they loved you. They loved it. They loved it.

[Caroline]

She's great as well.

[Kate Young]

She's so good. Judith Light. She's. I just love her. I've, like, been watching Law and Order for my entire, like, life.

[Caroline]

Oh, is that what she's.

[Kate Young]

And she's a judge, and so I feel very. Eventually, yeah, exactly. And. And she. She calls him and she's like, they loved it. They love you. They can't wait to see what you make next. And he's like, no, no, but this. I made this.

[Caroline]

This is what I made.

[Kate Young]

This is what I made. We now go to Broadway. Give me money. Give me money for the thing that I made so that I can write and live, and I need it to be seen, and then I can be a success. And she's like, it's too many people for off Broadway. It's too weird for Broadway. This is never gonna happen. It's not. It's not gonna be the thing. And he has just spent his entire 20s being like, no, this is gonna be the thing. And to hear that. And he just goes like, what do I do? And she's like, you write the next one.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Young]

And the whole thing is just like, that's all you can do. And after you finish that one, write another one. That's what writing is. Yeah, that's what the job is. Like, you just have to sit down and write the next thing. And I sort of texted Tasha. I was like, I have to write the next thing. I was like, in rivers of tears.

[Caroline]

I imagine what that must have been like for you in that exact moment.

[Kate Young]

In the exact moment that, like, it gave me exactly what I needed. I cannot tell you how. Like, I do not know if my life would have been different if I hadn't seen this film. I'm sure I would have got this information some other way. But it felt like a thing to suddenly go like, oh, it's okay. Like, working on something for 10 years and it not becoming a thing is actually not failure because of all the stuff I learned and all the ways, I'll do it differently next time. And the other biggest thing she says to him is, write a thing that, you know, like, maybe. Maybe next time write something, you know. And I wrote my book that came out last year, which is a romantic comedy set in Bristol, a thing that I know in, like, four months, I sat down that. That. That sort of night and went, okay, this is the time I'm going to carve out to do this. I'm going to plan it all January. I'm going to have a draft by my birthday in May, and then that's going to be a thing. And if. And if somebody. If my agent reads that book and is like, yeah, so it's nine different things, I just don't think. I can't imagine who we'd sell it to. I'm like, then you have to maybe look at a Different job. Like you have to go, like, maybe I keep writing non fiction and I'm good at that and I can, I can do that really well. Not everyone, you know, can be a novelist. And that is totally fair enough and, and you know, totally fair enough. But I sat down and wrote a whole other book and it felt incredibly important to have that moment.

[Caroline]

And it should be said, has been a massive hit.

[Kate Young]

Well, it's been really nice, my experience.

[Caroline]

And you've definitely seen it around.

[Kate Young]

Thanks. It's been really nice. It's like. And it felt, writing, it felt amazing. Like it felt fun and rich and good and like a story I really wanted to tell. And like I wasn't sort of going, okay, well what would happen next? And instead was going, no, this would happen next because then these people do this thing. And it felt like an experience that was full of joy. And it felt as well like an experience I didn't have to do loads of research on because it's essentially about going out and dating women. And that was the thing I had done. So that's. Yeah, exactly. And so it felt very much like, no, this is a world I know. This is a world I can immerse myself in. These are feelings that I can give to characters. So none of the like, stuff that has, that happens in my novel is real, but all of the feelings that the characters have are real. And that didn't feel true the first time round. It felt like I was trying to work out how people might feel rather than knowing how they feel because of feelings.

[Caroline]

Something I find fascinating about musicals in general is that like the really great ones, they deal with something that like, either allegorically or not, that is so relevant to the exact point in time that it came out, you know, And I'm saying this because I watched it so recently. Like west side Story, yeah, was so specifically about like the emergence of gang violence and also race based sort of like gang violence in the 60s and like this sort of like post war baby boomer generation who were young then and who were breaking away from the values of that time period. Right. And what's interesting is that you can like come back to west side Story at any point and sometimes it feels hokey because the songs have survived. The songs remain mountable because everyone knows what they are. And therefore it will last forever because it will always make money, because people always want to see. I want to be in America always. People always want to hear someone hear Maria, you know, but the issues will take on new light and color based on Whatever is happening right now. So, like, west side Story feels relevant again, even though 10 years ago, there's something twee about it almost, you know, because we are in the state. We are with America and with, you know, race and everything. But the thing about Tick tick boom that is not settling well with me here is that it is such a 90s piece of work. I mean, you know, 1990, but. You know what I mean? And the thing about 90s, the 90s outlook on creativity versus selling out.

[Kate Young]

Yes.

[Caroline]

I find very challenging.

[Kate Young]

Yes. Yeah, I do. It is. So it's even that. Even down to, like, that. I don't know, like, 10 seconds where there's suddenly a wrap happening in the middle of the film, which is so mad. Is so deeply rooted in the 90s. It's so, like, in the title of a song.

[Caroline]

I love that rap, by the way. I think it's one of the best parts.

[Kate Young]

So good.

[Caroline]

So good.

[Kate Young]

So, like, yes, here we are. Come on, this is happening.

[Caroline]

And the way the rapper is then in the audition room thing. I'll be here playing.

[Kate Young]

Exactly. It's so good.

[Caroline]

It's really. I love. That's my favorite part.

[Kate Young]

Yes. It's. It is magic to be like. It is so specifically the 90s. It is so specifically 1990. And that is true of, like, its version of New York, the way in which people exist in that. But also, you're right, this idea of. I think that we have much more of a culture now of just freelancing as a thing in a way that it wasn't in 1990. And where the sort of the dichotomy of what Jonathan has to choose between, which is, I can either continue to make my art and be a waiter at the Moondance diner, or I must sell out and go and do something else. Like them being such. There are two roads, there's a fork. Here's the clarity of it doesn't sit well in 2021. It is a tricky way of telling that story. It's very much like sets it in a time and a period and a place. And I think that what. What, for me is the version of it in 2021. So the film itself has. Is a different version of it than the stage show. And I think that the film itself is very much about the sort of, I guess that feeling of watching everybody else around you and figuring out where your place is in amongst everyone and working out whether or not you have something worth saying. And a lot of noise happening all around you saying, maybe this isn't worth Saying maybe this isn't worth doing. And I think that there is something at the end of 2021 about being a young person who's been indoors for two years and going like what am I saying? That has any worth what, you know, what is worth talking about what is worth doing? And our world is falling apart and a mess and is there anything I can do about that? And if the only thing I can do about that is write songs about it, is that worth anything?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

And I think that that feels like a thing that's still, that still feels current. Even though the sort of work practice of it would be selling out to go and do some days in advertising.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

Does not work to do a focus, to do a focus group like in a way that everyone we know who is a person who makes art is also doing a bunch of other things and at various points has gone and worked in offices or done bits or you know, or gone and done a focus group or gone and done like whatever else it is, it's not selling out.

[Caroline]

Yeah. In a way that we recognize what's interesting about the selling out thing. I mean there's so, there's so much in the phrase selling out that is like fascinating. Right. Because we. It is not a phrase that is in use. No, because, and I think what, because Jonathan's life, right. It's like as you say, very two, two clear paths. He can live in shit and make his art or he can be rich and have a full time job in advertising. And you're right, like freelance doesn't. And also it's fucking annoying by the way, as somebody who like something I say a lot whenever I'm asked, like in those like advice sort of vibes or whatever. Is that like, like oh, how hard was it to get your first book published? And I said, I always say it was harder to get an entry level job in marketing. Of course like in 2010 or whatever was like it, it's like jobs are hard. I think this is so specifically my personal package and should not affect anyone's view of the film because it is so my chip on my shoulder. But like, like the idea of, of trying to get a job in advertising was so difficult. And I worked in advertising for three or four years but took me a long time to get there just to get in on that level. And, and, and, and to me it was like, wow, imagine if I could live and have maybe ideas.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Maybe I write, maybe I can write little bits of copy line for ice creams, which I did. And one of those ice cream copy lines got on the bus ad. So that's nice.

[Kate Young]

You drank limoncello at your wedding because of Lemsip.

[Caroline]

Like, you know, Lemsip is responsible for marriage.

[Kate Young]

Responsible for your marriage.

[Caroline]

Like, Gavin is still in that industry. And so it is confronting to be like, first of all, Jonathan can get a job whenever he feels like it.

[Kate Young]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jonathan just could walk into any job anyway.

[Caroline]

And the way he walks into Michael's office, like, fine, I'll take a job in advertising. Like, what job?

[Kate Young]

What are you talking about? And also the, the other people in that focus group, it's like, yeah, what are you. Who are these people? Like, that he wouldn't be in there with them.

[Caroline]

Come on, come on. And like, and I, I think so. First of all, that's annoying.

[Kate Young]

Yeah, that's. That is annoying. That is annoying. I feel the same about like being a producer in theater. It was, it was way hard. It took me years when I first moved to London of working at night and interning during the day and trying to be a producer in theatre to get like a 16 grand a year entry level job working in theatre and working in offices in theaters. Not being an actor, not like not doing any of the sort of creative, in the sort of broadest sense things, but doing producing and working in an office and like organizing workshops and doing stuff like that. That, that job was so hard to get. That job was so hard that I almost left England. I'm sure, like, it was so difficult and in many ways and the way.

[Caroline]

You are made to feel so lucky.

[Kate Young]

So lucky and also so disposable. You know, how, how there are that sort of like Miranda Priestly thing of, you know, like the Stanley Teach. There are a million girls who, who, yes, you know, want that, wanted this job that you always feel as soon as you're in somewhere to be made to feel like there are a million people behind you just waiting to walk in.

[Caroline]

Can I tell you one of my most grateful moments of my whole career trajectory? Yes, please. This is a lot of career chat today. I'm really enjoying it.

[Kate Young]

I think it's a film about work.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it is. It really is. So I'm loving the chat, but when I was 24, 25 and when I was still working in advertising and I was, I had run the gamut of it or whatever, you know, I had to. Been able to live okay and have ideas for money and I just was like, you were living okay? Yeah, I was living okay. And, and I think coming to this thing of like, you know, ultimately I did move here to be a writer, you know, and I want to. I want to be in an industry where I can be near that. And like, as much as I adore writing copy lines for lemsip, like, we. We must move on. And so I was looking really fiercely and unsubtly for. For of something more, something bigger, something more. And this. I was recommended by a friend of a friend. Actually, weirdly, I was recommended by Jen.

[Kate Young]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline]

It's just occurred to me now to work a Penguin of Penguin Books.

[Kate Young]

I just. The way I know.

[Caroline]

Gasp.

[Kate Young]

Take a breath.

[Caroline]

Gasp. And this is like, no, I'm sure nobody who interviewed me or whatever back there but is listening or still works there, but it was like some kind of social media management role to head up, like, the YA division or something. And it was sort of a perfect role for me because I. I loved reading ya. That was like a genre that I just devoured all through my early 20s because the kind of escapism of it meant everything to me. And I had been working as a social media manager, slash advertising copywriter for like, so long. And I was like this. I could be the head of this team for like, you know, 30 grand a year or whatever. And like, I would work at Penguin and I would work near books, and I, like, killed myself. I like, like, I had a presentation. I did it for, like, all these different people. I kept doing it or whatever. I kept passing ranks and eventually it was like, between me and one other person or whatever. And then I just didn't get it at the last minute because they're like, you know, we're really trying to expand on the YouTube side of things and you don't really have a background in that. And it was just like. That's undoubtedly true.

[Kate Young]

I can't argue with that. I do not have the YouTube background you require.

[Caroline]

I don't know how to edit video. And I can't fake that.

[Kate Young]

No, I can't pretend I can't. I could say, no, no, no, no. I've edited tons of videos. I could come in tomorrow, edit video for you tomorrow. I just can't.

[Caroline]

I just can't do that for you. I was crestfallen. I was so obsessed. And, like, everybody in my life was upset, of course, because this was months.

[Kate Young]

You've really, like, invested at that point.

[Caroline]

Everybody's in it or whatever. This is actually a way bigger disappointment than the thing with that other book. Yeah. Because it was like, I was watching. It was like that feeling of, like, you're walking down this long, long hallway and you see the door and you have your hand on it and then it's like you're just, just booted out and you're at the back of the hallway again and it feels the door, the door feels so small.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

But like, I think all the time about like, what it would have been like if I'd gotten that job and that, you know, that would have been like probably meeting in and interviewing for the social channels, lots of YA authors. And I know because my self esteem was so low back then in terms of how intelligent I thought of myself and how gifted I thought of myself, I would have seen, I would have been like, oh, I just interviewed Suzanne Collins for the Twitter and I see that she's a genius and I am mud. And I am gonna. You know what? I love working behind the scenes.

[Kate Young]

I love working behind the scenes.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I would have been so. And like, it would have been such a million girls would have died for this job kind of job as well to me at that time, of course. But I would have toed the line for 10 years and like completely not have forgotten that I ever wanted to be a writer, I think because being near it would have been enough and being near that prestige would have been enough as well, of like Penguin, like, you know.

[Kate Young]

Yes. No, I'm totally with that.

[Caroline]

I've never told that story before.

[Kate Young]

That is an amazing. And you're not a story. No, no, no, it is, is. It's the alternative life. Like, that is such a clear alternative life. I had a similar. Like when I was interning in theater, there was a job that was not in London and that I went for and I like got on two trains, like for a first job, a first round interview and a second round interview. And it was to work in this. In. In a theater outside of London. And I really. There is an alternative life where I do get that job. And I was so in because I'd spent a year working for free and I was like, like, I. It is time. This is my thing. I can imagine this job. I can do it. I could, I could be there. I could see myself in the building. And when I got off the train and walked to this venue, I would like walk in the door and I'd be like, yeah, this is it. That's where I'll get my coffee. This is how it's going to look. This is where I'm going to live. I'd started looking at, like, where I would rent, what it was going to.

[Caroline]

Look like looking up your Facebook friends of who lives there too, being like, I could be friends with her again.

[Kate Young]

Right. None of them. But, you know, all my Facebook friends are in Australia. I was like, I will start again. I will do this thing. Like, I have moved to London two years ago, and I will start again.

[Caroline]

The thing of selling out is actually way more interesting in the light of this movie because the thing about Jonathan's life is that, yes, he will have to live in squalor, but he is still able to live in New York City because of the economics of that time. It is difficult.

[Kate Young]

It's difficult. And he does call, you know, but.

[Caroline]

He can do it. And, like, it's not even one of those things where it's like a Sex in the City moment where you have to suspend. You just believe that people have to. Can afford these apartments because that apartment was created painstakingly from pictures of Jonathan's real apartment. And it's a fine apartment. It's grody as hell, but there is space for a person to live and bike into the center of Manhattan, you know, and that did. That option did not exist for you and I. Our challenges were very different. They were like, can you afford to, like, you know, afford to work in your sellout job? Yeah, that's the fucking depressing thing.

[Kate Young]

Totally. And this is the thing is, like, for him as well, his. His version of doing this wasn't like, I am writing at night. I am gonna make this happen. Yeah, his thing was very much, okay, so five days a week, I'm writing. I work in the diner on Saturday and Sunday. Like, he had a weekend job in the diner that was. That's sustaining him living in Manhattan. Yeah, like, that is mad. That's a mental tree.

[Caroline]

That's nuts.

[Kate Young]

And. And of course, that. That lowers the stakes. That. That, like, makes it a question of just. Well, yeah, it sounds like he'll probably keep doing that for a while. He can live here. You know, he. He. He is. He doesn't have a lot of money. He is struggling. He is, like, selling his music. He's doing all those things. But, like, he essentially has other things, you know, has other ways of saying yes to money and yes to things. And I think the challenge of this. Of this film and the structure of this film, and I say challenge as a person who genuinely loves it, but I do think that, like, reducing everything to a week makes it both full of tension and also, as soon as you step back from it, you go, like, oh, yeah, that's not. That's Kind of.

[Caroline]

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Kate Young]

You know, that, that, yes, the panic of, like, how am I going to pay for a musician by this Friday? And yes, I'm going to take this, you know, this focus group because it's going to give me money for a guitarist or a drummer or whatever it was that I need for Friday. And yes, I'm going to, like, I, I, I, I'm going to quit my job because I think this is going to happen and all of these things. But to immediately then get the diner job back again is, is to put weight on this one week feels both narratively neat in a way that of course, you have to do in a musical. And I think, I think that the challenge of it, and this is not. I think that what is really interesting about it is that it has to be both a very true picture of somebody making art in Manhattan and trying to make that work in 1990. And the fact, as well, of the fact that it's a musical makes it a fantasy. And the fact that, like, you are breaking a reality. It's not just, just that the songs are all songs he is writing for the show. Like, a lot of them are the tick, tick, boom songs that end up. And that he is performing them on stage with lovely people. Like, he's performing them with actors on stage.

[Caroline]

Vanessa Hudgens.

[Kate Young]

Vanessa Hudgens.

[Caroline]

Gorgeous. Vanessa Hudgens.

[Kate Young]

Gorgeous. Right.

[Caroline]

Something very calming about seeing Vanessa Hudgens.

[Kate Young]

Just really being beautiful and sitting on stage doing these songs with him.

[Caroline]

I know. She was like, one of my favorite things about him, actually.

[Kate Young]

I love her.

[Caroline]

I have never watched High School Musical. I have no context of her musical.

[Kate Young]

I directed it when I was. Yeah, when I was back in Australia. I know. Directed a school version when I was in Australia.

[Caroline]

In my hometown of Brisbane.

[Kate Young]

In your hometown of Brisbane, Yes. In my home suburb of Ashgrove.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. But yes. So I. She's a joy in it.

[Caroline]

An absolute joy and rippling with competence.

[Kate Young]

Yes, absolutely. She's just like, yes. I am the woman who shows up to rehearsals being like, show me the new song. I'll. I'll have it down.

[Caroline]

I actually wish she was more of a character.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. Yes. Yeah, I see that. I see that. But, yeah, I think that, again, this sort of, like, narrative trickiness of you are seeing that week and the week and the lead up to the Superbia Workshop, but also you are seeing two years later, once he has become real friends with her and he's brought her in to be the actor in this thing and the Other actor in it is actually the guy who, in real life, not in the film, who sang Go the Distance in Hercules. So when they did that, like, that reading of it with the two actors and him, it was the guy who did Grow the Distance.

[Caroline]

One of the hardest songs to sing on karaoke because there's a lot of very hard.

[Kate Young]

Right.

[Caroline]

I've seen a lot of people whiff it.

[Kate Young]

And he is also in the diner in the scene that's like everyone from Broadway.

[Caroline]

Yes. Tell me about your feeling about the diner and that scene and Sunday.

[Kate Young]

I believe the song is Sunday. Sunday, which is a sort of very tangible homage to Sunday in the Park. George.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Kate Young]

The Sondheim musical. It's fun and lovely and warm, and I'm so glad they're all there. But my relationship with musicals is actually not with those people.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Kate Young]

Because I haven't seen them and I know who they are because, like, Bernad Peters. Right. I've had that experience now. But, like, my feelings of musicals are so much more rooted in the songs than in my experience of watching people. Because it wasn't a thing that I did until I kind of. Until I moved here. So it's. It's a song that I know is supposed to make me feel more than it does.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Kate Young]

But I. I am. I want to hear Johnny Can't Decide. I want to hear why. I want to hear, like, you know, that sort of stuff is the ones that really hit me in it. And I'm aware. It's a. Like, I'm aware of what it's doing, and I'm moved by what it's doing, and I am. My. My experience of it is thinking about Lin Manuel Miranda making it.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Kate Young]

And thinking about him on set in the middle of COVID wearing a mask, getting all of those Broadway stars in and, like, coordinating how difficult that would have been to film and feeling like it was a thing he really wanted to do because he loves Broadway so much and he loves all of those people so much. And I get very moved making it. Like, I get very moved by the making of the thing.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

But I am not as moved by their presence as I am by, like, Andrew Garfield song singing the songs.

[Caroline]

Lin Manuel Miranda really is our flesh Kermit, isn't he?

[Kate Young]

Yeah, he really is. Big, fleshy Kermit. He is just, like, the most sincere. Like, yeah, we made a good. Like, I'm picturing him nodding like, Kermit. Just, like, little mouth.

[Caroline]

Like, can't wait to, for some reason meet him one day. Ah, Flesh Kermit.

[Kate Young]

I kind of hope he would like that.

[Caroline]

I think he'd really like it.

[Kate Young]

But that. That sort of, like, very sincere nod of like, you know, that one in the Muppet Christmas Carol of, like, things are good. We've made good things here. I just. Yeah. I'm very moved by that version of it. And I think that. That. That. That is.

[Caroline]

Linu Miranda will come to his final form creatively when he finds his piggy. Like, there is a. There is, like, in the way that Jennifer Coolidge and the guy that makes White Lotus, Mike White, they kind of come as a parent. They're Kermit and Piggy of that world.

[Kate Young]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline]

Lynn needs his piggy.

[Kate Young]

He needs a piggy.

[Caroline]

He needs some big. To pass people around for him.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. Who's that going to be? What a joy to imagine who it could be. What a thrill.

[Caroline]

Sorry, I interrupted you.

[Kate Young]

No, no, you didn't.

[Caroline]

You did.

[Kate Young]

Flesh. You're just Flesh. Kermit and Piggy. Yeah. Flesh, Kermit and future Piggy. But I think that's it. I. You know, I. My big sort of emotional watching of this is that I. I think I said this to you in voice note when I was trying to pitch this, which is that my. I really remember being a teenager and watching Friends and the one where they all turned 30 and this thing happening in narrative and in fiction and in nonfiction. All of this about 30 being a thing. And I think for women, 35 is a thing for a whole different reason. But I understand why you would pick on 30 as a thing. This sort of end of your 20s. What are you gonna do next? What is your life gonna look like? What's gonna happen? And in French. And it was always very striking to me that nobody was worried about their job. That nobody in that episode is like, when Rachel is panicking about turning 30 and having feelings about turning 30. When Monica has feelings about turning 30, all of them have these feelings. And all of it's about, like, I'm not married and I don't have kids yet. And nobody is having a moment where they're like, I'm not really where I thought I'd be in my career. I'm not making stuff that I thought I'd make. Like, I think that I could be doing better. There's pressure here. There's, like, people who are getting promoted above me. And I don't know why that is. Like, all of those. Those things exist so much more tangibly for me in my friendships and our conversations about 30. And it's kind of that for many of my, like, particularly female friends, like, now that we're sort of 35, people are like, am I starting a family? Am I doing this? Am I, like, what's the kids situation look like for me? But, like, 30. Very much. I remember loads of us just being like, am I doing the thing I'm supposed to be doing? Like, am I. Am I showing up to a job every day that I can imagine doing good work at? Am I. Is this matter. Am I doing the thing I should be doing? Am I doing the thing I want to do? And I feel very moved by this. This story being like. I think that this story is so much not about him leaving with Susan because he's never going to.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

This, like, the story is not. Does Jonathan want to have kids in a family? It's like, so tangibly.

[Caroline]

Johnny can decide.

[Kate Young]

Johnny can decide. Johnny knows he's going to stay, but, like, what is Johnny going to do for the next 10 years? What stories is he going to tell for the next 10 years? And, like, the, you know, the tragedy of the film is like, he doesn't get 10 years, he gets another five years. And he.

[Caroline]

Yes. So we haven't touched on this yet, so maybe you could. This is very much, again, also part of my problem, which is that, like, so much of the plot of this film happening off screen.

[Kate Young]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And so explain to us what happens.

[Kate Young]

And I do think that. I do think that the narrative framing of the film, I'm not sure, quite works. I think that there's. I think that it's. I really like the way that the film is structured. I really like the way that the film is done. But I think the narrative framing of, like, we introduce this idea of sort of the shaky cam, like, this is real, these scenes are real.

[Caroline]

Can I say I hated that.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. This is what I mean. These things, these framing devices, the shaky cam. I don't like. I don't think it works. And I don't think that the end, which is shaky cam footage that is like some real shake.

[Caroline]

Shaky cam footage.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Fucks me up.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. I don't think. And it's like, I know why you do it. It's to tie in with the, like, some of the shaky cam footage that was real. But, like, the, the sort of narrative conclusion of this story is that he. The, The. The thing about the. The film itself is that all that happens by the end of the film is that he realizes he might have to write something else. Like, the end of the film is him getting A book to write new music in from his girlfriend who is leaving. And then him having his 30th birthday and going like, well, I guess I get up tomorrow when I write something.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

And what happens in the five years after that is he spends five years writing Tick, Tick Boom, writing Rent. And then on the night before the first preview of Rent, he died from an aortic dissection really unexpectedly in his sleep. He'd had a couple of days of feeling not great and had been to a doctor, and a doctor was like, you seem fine. And he went home and he died. And he never got to see the show that did go to Broadway, that sort of had a run on off Broadway and then had a run on Broadway. And the producer of that show had sort of found him because he'd come to a, like, reading a performance of Tick, Tick Boom. Like that Journey is all off screen. It's all a thing that happens once the film is done. This film is much more like. This film is only really concerned with what happens when something you make is not going to be the thing.

[Caroline]

There are many places in this movie when Jonathan is such a challenging character to be around.

[Kate Young]

Oh, big time.

[Caroline]

He's such an egomaniac.

[Kate Young]

He's a terrible boyfriend.

[Caroline]

He's a terrible boyfriend.

[Kate Young]

Terrible friend.

[Caroline]

Terrible friend. And also annoying.

[Kate Young]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

Big time. Just an annoying man. Like, the whole this is the life thing. I'm sure it works for other people. It don't work for me.

[Kate Young]

Don't work for me. Don't work for me. I want to see him do. Yeah. I want to see him sit at the piano and sing. Why? About him and his friend Michael. Like, I want to see him sing about their childhood and about having gone to a theater and being like, how am I going to spend my day? This is how I'm going to spend my day.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

Like, this is the best way I can imagine to spend all my days.

[Caroline]

Exactly.

[Kate Young]

To go and make something with.

[Caroline]

That's incredible and beautiful. Beautiful piece.

[Kate Young]

But you're right, like, this is the Life. It's very.

[Caroline]

Like, it's the most naughty thing I've ever seen.

[Kate Young]

If I was at that party, Gotta say, I'm out. Salute. Farewell.

[Caroline]

I was having this conversation, my friend Diana, the other day, and we were talking about whimsy in general.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And about how embarrassment is famously the most contagious emotion in that. Like, if you see someone who's embarrassing themselves, you are dead. Like, you have died.

[Kate Young]

Yes.

[Caroline]

And your empathy for that person will never be higher than that moment. And I'm talking about, like, how I think whimsy is on the other end of that scale. It is the least contagious emotion when somebody is being fatuously whimsical in that kind of, like, look how crazy I am. I'm a pretty neat guy, wouldn't you say? I'm like, kill him. Kill Flesh Kermit. Sic your dogs on him. There's something. And it's what's weird about that is, like, whimsy and embarrassment existing on this kind of thing of, like, most contagious emotion to least contagious emotion, because they both have something to do with sort of openness and vulnerability.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. And sincerity.

[Caroline]

And sincerity. And I love sincerity, and I love people who try hard. But that man, I was like, get him away.

[Kate Young]

I see that. I see that. But I think, like, on the film side, and this is obviously, I come in. In the position of. For the film.

[Caroline]

Yes. For.

[Kate Young]

Is that I think that those moments are few. And my feeling of sincerity and my feeling of being on his side and sincere in that is contagious to me. So the sincerity of this film is very contagious to me. And I am somebody who is, I think, has a tendency towards sincerity and vulnerability and openness.

[Caroline]

Oh, right here, baby.

[Kate Young]

And I think that. That I certainly watch this film and. And the sort of. Both. The. The. Both this. The film as a piece of art and the piece of art the film is telling. Both of those things, I think, are super sincere, because I think Flesh Kermit is very sincere.

[Caroline]

I'm sorry, I'm not over it. People are gonna get so sick of saying Flesh Kermit, But I just. I think it's the funniest thing I've ever heard.

[Kate Young]

I think Flesh Comet is very, very sincere. And I think Andrew Garfield in this is incredibly sincere.

[Caroline]

It's a lot of sincere men.

[Kate Young]

It's so many sincere men in a way that I just don't think you always see. I think there's a lot of archness in the past couple of decades. A lot of, like, irony and archness. And don't worry, I'm actually above this. And I think for to be a good musical, you cannot be above it. Like, you can't be. And I think that that sometimes means the risk of tipping too far into whimsy.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Kate Young]

Like, I think that you. You are, like, flying too close to the sun because you must be sincere. And sometimes if you tip into whimsy, I'm, like, quite inclined to forgive it, so long as the Sincerity is true.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Kate Young]

And. And I do genuinely think, like, my. My sort of understanding of how Andrew Garfield was cast in this is that he had been in Angels in America on stage, which I saw here and then went to New York, and Lin Manuel Miranda saw it in New York and was like, that's Jonathan Larson. Like, that's gonna be Jonathan Larson. And he called a mutual friend of theirs and was like, hey, can I.

[Caroline]

Have a single sing?

[Kate Young]

The massage therapist like, can Andrew sing? And the massage therapist like, yes. And not knowing whether that was true or not. And Andrew Garfield worked for a year.

[Caroline]

To sing and has a beautiful voice.

[Kate Young]

And a beautiful voice and a great musical voice. Like a really great. He carries it so well. So beautiful.

[Caroline]

There's like a lot of space in there or something. It's like you feel like he can walk around in his voice big time.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. It's a real story, storytelling voice. And it's really open and sincere and it's really heartfelt. And I think that that, that is what is so great about Wicked. It's what's so great about, like, Chicago. It's like, what's so great about singing in the rain? It's like this big, open hearted. We are here for this. This is sincerity. And I think in the same way that it sometimes tips into whimsy in. In the Sound of Music. I love it. I adore it.

[Caroline]

I love it.

[Kate Young]

You know, I'm so there for it. And I think that sometimes whimsy in, like, the Sound of Music is easier to sort of see and take because you can't imagine being there, but you kind of can imagine being at that party.

[Caroline]

That's so true.

[Kate Young]

I think the challenge of Tick Tick Boom is like, you're like, oh, I know those people. And that would have been mortifying. I would have hated to be in that room. And I get that. But I forgive it because of the sincerity.

[Caroline]

But also, you can tell that, like, Lin Manuel Miranda and Andrew Garfield both think that's a great room to the point that even of the finance guy.

[Kate Young]

Who'S like, wow, what a great time, guys.

[Caroline]

And they have to be like, smiling, going, wow, we're at the center of everything here. Aren't we, guys? And it was. Yeah. And yeah, that was.

[Kate Young]

And like, I am friends with a lot of very deeply sincere people, and we are all very sincere together. We all sing, we all sing and we do, you know, But I think that there is a.

[Caroline]

All of our parties end with singles.

[Kate Young]

All of our parties. Right. But there's a. That it Tips. And you're just like, oh, no, we've gone too far. I also do think it's something about, would I forgive it of women in a way that I don't forgive it of men? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Like, show that. Show me that scene with like very sincere women singing and jumping around and dancing. And maybe I'm like, I want to be at that party.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I want to hear them list their housemates.

[Kate Young]

Yeah, me too.

[Caroline]

It's so funny that you say that because, like, the only moment I enjoyed is when he points to his older lesbian.

[Kate Young]

Oh, I love the lesbians. Yeah, obviously. Obviously. It's like, these guys live next door. It's like, yes, they do. They're at every party.

[Caroline]

I love it. This is great.

[Kate Young]

I think that what feels really important to me about this story as well is that it's a real. I think there are lots of pictures and I mean like films or stories or anything else about making something as a team, about putting something on stage or making a film or getting the band back together or doing that thing and like working with other people. And what is always quite compelling to me is to see a story of somebody who is like, I toil alone. Like, this is a lonely existence of. I have nobody to share this panic and this stress with. And this is quite a lonely version of doing this. And I think that he. It clearly like being in a room with musicians and with actors and stuff. Once. Once he gets there, you can just see everything light up. And I do think that there is. It's very self indulgent of me who is somebody who writes to be like, if. If my friends stopped writing and started working 9 to 5 in a job that they couldn't take calls from me in, I would probably also lose my mind. Like so much of me being able to sit at home and write books is the fact that I know other people who are doing the same thing and we set up a community of it. And I think that what he really is struggling with, which I feel very, like, deeply in it, is that it's not just that people have sold out, it's that they used to all do it together and now they don't. And that he is kind of left in a place where he doesn't get to air that with anybody. He has this agent who won't call him back. His friends all work full time. Like it just has shifted. His girlfriend's sick of it and she's like, I want to go and work full time. I want to go and be a teacher. Like, I want to go and, you know, have this life somewhere else. And he is kind of like, I don't know how to do this when it's just me. And I think that's a really true thing. I think, like, seeking out community and colleagues is so important.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

To making art, Particularly when it's a version of art that is, like, you on your own.

[Caroline]

God. You know what this has reminded me of? And it's a movie I don't expect you to have seen because very few people did. And it came out in the same time frame. The JRR Tolkien biopic starring Nicholas Hoult.

[Kate Young]

I did not see it.

[Caroline]

Right. It's on Disney.

[Kate Young]

Okay. Okay. I'm going in.

[Caroline]

Honestly, Jen was sleeping over the other night, and we threw it on because we were like, what we want right now is like a. Like a slow, soft period drama where it's, like, in the air and we're all walking tomorrow. Mordor, everyone we know is doing an app that you should also do called Fantasy Hike, where you. Basically, it's a pedometer that tracks your steps and how far you're getting to Mordor. I am currently the furthest, but I may not be the first to arrive. You're gaining on us all, actually.

[Kate Young]

Well, I. I also, Because I have an Android, it currently isn't taking payments, so it's not registering any of my miles.

[Caroline]

What the.

[Kate Young]

I know.

[Caroline]

Okay.

[Kate Young]

It'll happen again. It'll come back.

[Caroline]

Anyway, it's called Fantasy Heights. If you want to have a walking challenge with your friends, I will say.

[Kate Young]

It'S also made a lot of my friends and I, all of our friends, we've all been talking about Tolkien. More.

[Caroline]

Yes. Yeah, that's part of it.

[Kate Young]

We've all been back on the Hobbits.

[Caroline]

So anyway, Tolkien, it is what I like to call a five star, three star film.

[Kate Young]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

It is like the best kind of. It's on film. Four in the middle of the day.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. Beautiful.

[Caroline]

And. Or I'm watching it on a plane kind of movie. It's gentle, it's purposeful, it's well made, beautiful. But it's not trying that hard. Anyway, that is a movie about this group of friends that Tolkien had during his school days because he was an orphan. And he was sort of sent as a kind from a. By a patron. By an old schooly patron to this boarding school where he was inevitably the poorest kid there. And he. He formed this club with these three other Boys called the sort of the TCB Society. It's like their tea club. Tea club. It was a tea club. It was the. Something like the tea. The Bowerman Tea Club or something, basically. And the whole thing is that they're just these, like. It starts with these preteen boys who are sitting in this like grand tea room and they shouldn't really be there, but they also have the money to be there, so who can stop them? But the whole point of it is that they are sort of pushing each other in their artistic pursuits from a very young age. And like, one of them's a poet and one of them is a musician and one of them is J.R. tolkien. And he's got this like, obsession with languages and things and it you. And really it's actually more a film about these boys than it is about Tolkien. But they obviously had to sell it on something, of course. And so you watch them go through Oxford together and you watch Tolkien, you know, get a scholarship and then lose a scholarship and then resent his friends because they all rich and they can just. Nothing is. People are going to fix their problems, but not his. And then you watch them all die in World War I. And you. And he is. I think one of them also survives, but like he's not in. It's not really dealt with in the film, but it's like he's not the same. It's kind of the vibe.

[Kate Young]

Yeah, of course. Don't think you would be.

[Caroline]

No, no. Right. And it's. I think it's. There's been this very. Comparison's been made a lot about like, you know, Tolkien's relationship to both world wars in terms of fighting in one, having his son fight in another, and the way that affected his work, but the way it's sort of communicated in this film, it's like, yes, that's there for those who want to see it and it's obvious, but the kind of. The thing underneath that is the fact that like, he was making these stories with his friends because he loved them. And then the struggle he goes through when his friends are gone and he.

[Kate Young]

Doesn'T have the people to go hear this thing I made.

[Caroline]

And there's a part where his wife sort of says to him, he's sort of sitting. It's like this miserable day, post war, where that he's teaching in Oxford and he's writing at night and his wife kind of says to him, like, you know, you used to do this because you loved it. And she basically gives him an ultimatum, like in this movie of like, you need to either find joy in this again or stop because it's killing our family. And then he basically finds a way to do it for his own sons.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. For his sons.

[Caroline]

It's actually. Do you know what? Maybe it's a five star. Five star.

[Kate Young]

Oh, that's a five star. Five star premise, I gotta say. Wow.

[Caroline]

But it is kind of the same thing, even though very different premises of, like, well, how do I make things when the people I make things with don't care anymore or aren't here anymore.

[Kate Young]

Or, like, acheering me, you know, from the sidelines and back here, but, like, they've kind of all moved on and, you know.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

They're doing something else.

[Caroline]

And weirdly, it's like, I would. I would like to see the part. Maybe one of us will make this. Who knows? We don't know.

[Kate Young]

We don't know.

[Caroline]

But we are at a similar place where women I know are starting to think about children. I'm thinking about children.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And that I will. I will be an artist always. And I hope I will have enough money to. And resources to be able to do both. But I don't know.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

What I'm gonna end up with. No. Neither does anybody else.

[Kate Young]

No, we don't. Right.

[Caroline]

And you know, the people who don't have children are gonna have more time to dedicate to their art. And like, that will be a shift in, like, in like an artist community that you and I have built of mostly other women.

[Kate Young]

Other women. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And. And it's going to be other people too. So it's like. It's a pressing thought.

[Kate Young]

It is a thought.

[Caroline]

And what I was thinking all the way throughout this movie about, like, oh, my. I didn't care about turning 30, but I do care about turning 35.

[Kate Young]

Right. You know, this is it. It's. It's big. It is a thing. It is a real consideration. It is a real, I think, like my. My experience of turning 35s. I will be 38 this year. Oh, yeah.

[Caroline]

I forget. You're a couple years on me.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. Yeah. So I. You're so youthful. Thank you. Very gray hair, but very youthful face. I have been 35 and I had that moment of. I think my experience of it was very much like a fear that I would suddenly feel a thing that I hadn't felt for the past decade, which is that I keep. I have always assumed I would have children. I'm quite maternal. I'm quite good with kids. I really like family. I like community. I like all of that. And I, I've always assumed that that was a thing I would do. And when I came out, it was suddenly a thing that I was like, oh, I would have to really think about this and think about, like, logistics in a way of, like, who would be pregnant and what would that look like? And would I want to be the person who carries a child? Would I want to be the person who is not carrying a child? Like, what, what does that look like? Do we adopt? Do we. You know, there's lots of different ways in which that might look like, look for lots of couples, but it's certainly, like, compulsory to think about it if you, you're a queer couple. And I, I really had this moment approaching 35, where I was like, I am single and what if I suddenly have that biological thing of I really want to have a kid? And I, I, I really, I came into, like, leading up to the pandemic, had a moment of being like, like, if I don't meet somebody, I assume I will have a kid on my own. Like, I will, I will figure out a way to do it on my own. And then the pandemic made me go, I really respect that for other people. It is not for me.

[Caroline]

What was the, what about the pandemic.

[Kate Young]

Made you think that being isolated. I think I just had a real moment of being like, if I'm not going to do it with somebody, I don't want it to restrict my movement and my flexibility and the fact that I'm, I can get in a car and come and see pals and come and spend time in other people's houses.

[Caroline]

And go to Italy for a month.

[Kate Young]

Right, exactly. And have that, like, that flexibility. Like, as soon as I am locked down in a house, and I'm not saying that children would lock me down in a house in that same way, but it definitely would, it would make more complicated the ease of, like, going to stay on a friend's, in a friend's spare room. You know, that would become a different thing. And, and I very much had this moment of just being like, I could do that with somebody, but I don't want to do it on my own. I'm happy to, like, for my life to change like that with somebody, but not on my own. And it was a real thing of just suddenly when I realized that, I went, oh, my God, I really don't hope, I really hope that I don't have the biological, Like, I really want a kid to fight against. And it's still, like, I think I can imagine my life in many different ways. I can imagine being happy in various different ways. And I feel really grateful for the, like, you know, whatever it is in me that means that I don't have that need.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

That I know that lots of women of my age do.

[Caroline]

But when you. When you came to that decision, which is like, what a great, like, decision to make without the pressure of having to make it in a sense of like, yeah, of course there's biological issues and we're all aging or whatever, but like, like to just calmly come to that by yourself, I think is a very powerful thing. But did you have that moment of, like, immediately assessing who your group is going to be of who else is not going to have a child, you think?

[Kate Young]

Well, I so think the really interesting thing for me is that it made me go, like, well, great, I'll be able to visit my friends with kids. Like, I will have this really important, great relationship with kids in my life. Who might my friends have. I will be able to be the, like, flexible coolant who's like, yeah, it. Come and stay in the spare room for a month. It's, you know, I know you're having. Now that you're 12, you're just furious all the time. Come and stay for two weeks in the summer. That's going to be great. Like, that freedom and that possibility opened up. As well as being like, I also like that in my friendship group there are people who aren't going to have kids. And where I kind of feel like, oh, yes, we, you know, I don't think that it's made me, like, look away from friendships where I know people are having kids or where they are currently having kids. What it allows me to do is be flexible enough to be like, cool. I'm the one who drives to, like, come and see you. I'm the one who goes, yeah, of course I can come and let's have a takeaway on the sofa and I'll hold the baby for three hours and you can go and have a bath and you can have a great time. And that is an offer I could not make if I was going to have loads of kids. Yeah, you know, that's an offer that would be made much more difficult if I also had a kid lying on me in my own home.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kate Young]

You know, it gives me the flexibility to be able to be that person. I really love kids, so it's really nice to, like, have that relationship with people I love and with the people they're making. That is so nice.

[Caroline]

I mean, that. That's a really refreshing thing to hear because I just feel like that there's certainly. If you were to just be online or on substack or whatever, you would think that there's like, this great divide. Divide.

[Kate Young]

The great divide between us.

[Caroline]

Great div. You're right. There is no divide. You're right, it is. And I. I really resent the kind of people who are pushing out there. I mean, I understand that people need to, like, write about the differences that they're feeling in their lives and. And the alienation or whatever, but the idea that we're all like, the decision to make more people sort of like, makes you. Puts you on one side of a war.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. No, mad to me.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And there's a lot of it around. Right. I'm not making it up.

[Kate Young]

No, no, you're not making it up. I do think that exists. I think there's a real, like. Like, I am somebody who's choosing not to do this. I need to find my friends who are not doing it, because I can't. And, you know, I might have different feelings about this in 10 years. I might be like, oh, I wish I had. Or I. I don't know, you know, whether I see my friends enough because they're all busy with school and kids and stuff like that. And I should have made sure that I had more friends who weren't having kids. I have no idea whether that's going to happen, but I would rather regret not having kids. Thank. Can regret having them and feel like it restricts my life. I don't ever want to resent anyone or.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And also, no one can regret proof their life.

[Kate Young]

No, like, indeed. You know, you know, I'm making a choice, and I feel really great about it, and I hope that I continue to. But I don't know. You never know.

[Caroline]

How did we get here?

[Kate Young]

This feels like a very mad conversation, you know, but I think it is tick, tick, boom as well. I think it is like Susan heading upstate and like, what does life look like? And who are you going to surround yourself with? And. And what is it? If you just kind of go, I don't have to. I think the joy of our lives is like, yes, I'm. I have to make tricky choices. And there's lots of things about, like, art versus family versus, you know, all of this.

[Caroline]

Being a woman in the.

[Kate Young]

Being a woman in the arts and all of that stuff. And I think it's, you know, this is a very, very different film if. If Jonathan Larson's A woman.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Kate Young]

Like, I think that's. It's a really different story to tell. It's a really interesting story that isn't this story, but it's. And I. I think you're right. I think, like, one of us will do it. Like somebody we know. Yeah. Somebody writes it. But yeah, I do think that it's really interesting to ask all of these questions to women who feel like they're running out of time in a different way and who are, like, looking at biology and worried in another way or, like, questioning and thinking and trying to work out how to do everything or when to make a call. And I think that is an incredibly interesting conversation that. That this film is not having.

[Caroline]

Well, I loved it.

[Kate Young]

I. You know what? I just. So it's. It's such an interesting thing. It's a. It's a soundtrack where the songs get really stuck in my head. But it's interestingly a film I have watched a bunch of times without having the soundtrack on repeat in my house. Like, I've been to see Wicked at the cinema twice, and I've listened to that soundtrack like, a hundred times since Wicked came out. I listened to Tick, Tick, Boom, Driving down here Today, and I was like, oh, yeah, that song, like, I think it's good and fun and lovely. But the Lin Manuel Miranda's directed version of this film, the film that has all of these feelings in it, is the art that I'm connecting with. And that is a lot of those songs, like, really move me and really stick in my head and do all of those things. But it is the work as a whole, rather than, like, the way that I've engaged with musicals in my childhood of listening to a soundtrack over and over and over. This is like, I'm engaging with this film as an entire, entire piece.

[Caroline]

I totally get that. And like, even again, if it all didn't. Didn't vie with me completely, like, I just respect the fuck out of it for being about what it's about. And also for Lin Manuel Miranda to, like, have, you know, gotten his MacArthur genius grant.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Seren is this. And is that. And be the. On top of the world and like, be like, no, this is the story. He could have made anything and this is what he chose to make. And there's something very admirable and lovely about someone who wants to make a story that's so full of oddities and friction and unclear answers about art.

[Kate Young]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Especially when he's coming off, like, this incredible, successful, huge career. So a hat tip to Flesh Kermit.

[Kate Young]

And the fact that he got this job because he. He played John. He played the role. He did it. He did it on stage as part of, like, no, no, like tick, tick boom.

[Caroline]

Oh, wow.

[Kate Young]

So he performed a bit of tick, tick boom. So a version of it that's been on stage, he performed and a producer saw it and was like, I think he might make this. And they, like, worked on making the film.

[Caroline]

My God.

[Kate Young]

Yeah. So he had this, like, long standing relationship with this text that I think has been performed a bunch of times, but is not one that I think gets a lot of traction outside of New York because it's such a, like, story about making art in Manhattan. And there's a lot of Americans who have. Particularly like New York, Broadway Americans who have a lot of feelings about the sort of piece of work that is the stage version. But I think this film version just has a different story to tell. I think it is different to the. To the staged version because of the context in which you put it and the version of it that you're telling. Yeah, yeah. And I really like that we got.

[Caroline]

We gotta go. Because we've been here for a.

[Kate Young]

We gotta die. We gotta go.

[Caroline]

But this has been incredible. I think it's like sometimes I worry that about, like, I don't want to, like, fake it for anyone and I could never fake it for you.

[Kate Young]

No.

[Caroline]

But I love this conversation so much. Like, you want the movies growing on me because. Yeah, you're right. Like. Like, I don't know what. What it tries to do is. Is so beautiful. And I'm so glad I did it. And I love hanging out with you.

[Kate Young]

I love hanging out with you too. And thank you for watching it twice this week and texting Tash and being like, Acast Powers. The world's best podcasts. Here's the show that we recommend. Do you like being educated on things that entertain but don't matter? Well, then you need to be listening to the Podcast with Knox and Jamie. Every Wednesday, we put together an episode dedicated to delightful idiocy to give your brain a break from all the serious and important stuff.

[Caroline]

Whether we're deep diving a classic movie, dissecting the true meanings behind the newest slang, or dunking on our own listeners.

[Kate Young]

For their bad takes or cringy stories.

[Caroline]

We always approach our topics with humor and just a little bit of side eye. And we end every episode with recommendations on all the best new movies, books.

[Kate Young]

TV shows, or music. To find out more, just search up the Podcast with Knox and Jamie wherever you listen to podcasts and prepare to make Wednesday your new favorite day of the week. ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.