Waitress (2007) with Janina Matthewson

Summary

Sentimental Garbage Podcast Summary

Episode: *Waitress (2007) with Janina Matthewson
Host: Caroline O'Donoghue
Release Date: January 16, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this heartfelt episode of Sentimental Garbage, host Caroline O'Donoghue delves deep into the intricacies of the 2007 film Waitress with her guest, Janina Matthewson. The conversation navigates through the film's unique blend of humor and emotional depth, exploring its portrayal of complex female relationships and the nuanced depiction of domestic struggles.

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Comparing Waitress to Steel Magnolias

Caroline opens the discussion by juxtaposing Waitress with Steel Magnolias, initially questioning the latter's capacity to evoke both laughter and tears. Janina counters, emphasizing that Waitress stands out for its seamless integration of Southern charm with profound emotional narratives.

• Caroline: "I believe that of the film Waitress."
• Janina (00:01:37): "Waitress. I mean, I don't remember Steel Magnolia as being funny at all..."

---

Southern Accents and Cultural Representation

The conversation shifts to the significance of the Southern accent in Waitress. Caroline and Janina appreciate how the accent contributes to character development and adds authenticity to the narrative.

• Caroline (00:08:48): "But also, it really occurred to me, like, the power of the Southern accent during this."

Janina highlights the accent's role in making characters relatable and endearing:

• Janina (00:08:55): "Southern accent is decept. Difficult to do. Southern American accents. I could never quite get the hang of it."

---

Character Analysis: Jenna and Her Friends

The heart of the episode lies in dissecting the film's main characters—Jenna and her friends Becky and Dawn. They explore Jenna's artistry, her tumultuous marriage, and the sanctuary she finds in her pie-making.

• Janina (00:10:11): "Jenna is the master pie maker of this diner... she is married to a man with a full head of hair and is controlling and abusive."
• Caroline (00:10:45): "She's trapped in the way that we think that..."

The dynamic between the three women is portrayed as a pillar of support amidst personal turmoil, emphasizing the film's focus on female solidarity.

---

The Complexity of Earl: A Nuanced Villain

Earl, Jenna's husband, is discussed in depth, revealing layers beyond his abusive exterior. Janina appreciates how Waitress portrays Earl not just as a villain but as a deeply insecure individual.

• Caroline (00:16:01): "He is so weak and desperate..."
• Janina (00:16:47): "It's like abandonment issues. Right. It's desperation not to be alone."

This portrayal challenges typical abusive archetypes by attributing Earl's behavior to his internal insecurities and fear of abandonment.

---

Dr. Pomatter: The Unconventional Romantic Interest

The episode also delves into Dr. Pomatter's character, the charming yet awkward doctor who becomes Jenna's confidant. Janina and Caroline admire Nathan Fillion's portrayal, noting his ability to bring depth and vulnerability to the role.

• Caroline (00:24:44): "He's bumble.com. He's a feminist app for women."
• Janina (00:24:29): "I'm a sucker for a romantic hero who's so weird."

Their discussions highlight how Dr. Pomatter serves as a catalyst for Jenna's transformation, embodying the film's theme of finding strength through unexpected connections.

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Adrienne Shelley's Legacy and Tragic Demise

A poignant segment of the episode honors Adrienne Shelley's contribution to cinema and the tragic circumstances of her untimely death. Janina shares insights into Shelley's creative genius and the loss felt by the film community.

• Janina (00:65:55): "She was a wonderful, wonderful talent... she was murdered in an apartment she was using as an office."
• Caroline (00:73:12): "It's a real testament to how powerful this work is..."

The hosts reflect on Shelley's ability to craft a film that resonates deeply, blending authenticity with artistic expression.

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Themes of Independence and Community

Caroline and Janina explore the film's core themes—independence, community, and the balance between self-reliance and interconnectedness. They commend Waitress for portraying female empowerment without disparaging romantic relationships.

• Janina (00:62:31): "Interdependence within a community is the way we function best."
• Caroline (00:62:31): "It breaks my heart that she didn't get to see it released."

The discussion underscores the movie's message that true happiness and strength come from both personal growth and mutual support within a community.

---

Notable Quotes from the Episode

Throughout the conversation, several memorable quotes emerge, capturing the essence of Waitress and its exploration of complex female experiences:

• Janina (00:08:38): "I'm sorry, Americans. We are going to keep doing that."
• Caroline (00:20:53): "I have nothing here. There's nothing here at the store today."
• Janina (00:42:35): "I wish we saw a little bit more of his journey."

These quotes illustrate the hosts' and guest's appreciation for the film's nuanced storytelling and character development.

---

Conclusion: Celebrating Waitress and Adrienne Shelley's Vision

Caroline wraps up the episode by emphasizing Waitress's enduring impact and Admirna Shelley's visionary approach to filmmaking. She acknowledges the film's balance of humor and heartbreak, lauding it as a masterpiece that offers both solace and inspiration.

• Caroline (00:73:44): "For it to look so beautiful, for it to capture so many things about contemporary women's lives..."

Janina echoes these sentiments, expressing ongoing admiration for Shelley's work and the lasting legacy of Waitress.

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Closing Remarks and Promotions

The episode concludes with Janina sharing updates on her latest projects, including her upcoming book and podcast, while Caroline encourages listeners to engage with their favorite content. Both express gratitude for the opportunity to discuss such a meaningful film, leaving listeners with a deepened appreciation for Waitress and its creator.

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Key Takeaways

• Waitress masterfully blends humor and emotional depth, offering a profound exploration of female relationships and personal struggles.
• Adrienne Shelley's directorial genius is celebrated, highlighting her ability to create authentic, relatable characters within a stylized Southern setting.
• The film's nuanced portrayal of abuse, independence, and community serves as a powerful commentary on contemporary women's lives.
• Caroline and Janina's insightful analysis provides listeners with a comprehensive understanding of Waitress's thematic richness and its enduring cultural significance.

---

Notable Timestamps and Quotes:

• [00:01:37] Janina: "Waitress. I mean, I don't remember Steel Magnolia as being funny at all..."
• [00:08:48] Caroline: "But also, it really occurred to me, like, the power of the Southern accent during this."
• [00:10:11] Janina: "Jenna is the master pie maker of this diner..."
• [00:16:01] Caroline: "He is so weak and desperate..."
• [00:24:44] Caroline: "He's bumble.com. He's a feminist app for women."
• [00:65:55] Janina: "She was a wonderful, wonderful talent... she was murdered in an apartment she was using as an office."
• [00:62:31] Janina: "Interdependence within a community is the way we function best."
• [00:42:35] Janina: "I wish we saw a little bit more of his journey."

---

This episode of Sentimental Garbage serves as an in-depth tribute to Waitress and Adrienne Shelley's remarkable contribution to film, offering listeners a rich analysis that underscores the movie's emotional resonance and cultural impact.

Transcript

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[Caroline]

Hello and welcome. Sentimental Garbage podcast where we bake all our pies with the heart in the middle. My name is Caroline, and as you can plainly see, my left boob is much higher than my right boob. And all my life I met harlots, but you are a queen. Ba da ba da ba ba da ba. Something between. It's Gina Mathewson.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yay.

[Caroline]

Hi, welcome to the funniest and most upsetting movie. Yeah, remember when Steel Magnolia is the theme tune? The theme, the kind of the slogan for that movie was the funniest movie to ever make you cry. Yeah, I don't believe that of Steel Magnolias. I believe that of the film Waitress.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, Waitress. I mean, I don't remember Steel Magnolia as being funny at all, but it's a long time since I've watched it.

[Caroline]

The old ladies are doing old lady funny stuff and she's dying about Julia Roberts dying. Yeah, yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's like weep, weep the whole time and then occasionally chuckle.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Well, actually, this movie sort of exists quite nicely in. In that canon of like Southern women dealing with hard realities in a cacad way.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. Ben Charman. Well, they live in hell.

[Caroline]

Ben Charming. While they live in hell. Yep.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yes, sir.

[Caroline]

Just realized that like, Americans do listen to this podcast.

[Gina Mathewson]

I'm so sorry.

[Caroline]

To us, this accent sounds so convincing and also harmless. And to them they're like, please don't stop.

[Gina Mathewson]

Southern accent is decept. Difficult to do. Southern American accents. I could never quite get the hang of it. And I am professionally trained.

[Caroline]

Tell me, how did we get to Waitress today?

[Gina Mathewson]

Oh, it was a journey. It's so saga.

[Caroline]

It was a saga getting to this movie today. And not because like, like, weirdly, we both love this movie. I've seen it a billion times. You've seen it a billion times. I think I've invoked it on this podcast many times, even talking about, like, domestic abuse in film when talking about, like, affairs in film and all these things, but I've somehow never covered it, and you're the perfect person to cover it with. But the way we got here was so convoluted in that you came over here because you were like, caroline, I know. You almost did French Kiss on the podcast, the Meg Ryan movie, French Kiss. But then you had that whole snafu with it not being available for streaming. It's now available for streaming again.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yep.

[Caroline]

So you came over, we got all.

[Gina Mathewson]

Excited, we had dinner, and we sat down, and it was gone on prime for two weeks or something.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It was basically on prime over Christmas and then just stopped.

[Gina Mathewson]

Gone. And it's so annoying because it's such a wonderful movie, and I want you to see it.

[Caroline]

I totally believe you, and I think I would love it.

[Gina Mathewson]

So good.

[Caroline]

I don't know why the fates keep conspiring, but I also love that, like, the curse of. The curse of French Kiss on this podcast. It's important to have lore sometimes, and not watching French Kiss is part of ours.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And then we decided that we'd watch Annie.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because we were. Because I was covering a lot of musicals on the podcast lately, and then we got a little too stoned watching Annie, and then we realized that we didn't want to talk about Annie ever. No.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's like, Annie is fascinating in so many ways, none of which are appropriate for this podcast, and which I will probably be turning in my head privately for the rest of my life. This is having been the first time I rewatched it since I was a kid.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

But not for here.

[Caroline]

Not because Annie is a dirty film. Just because I don't. Again, it goes back to my thing with, like, I just don't think kids stuff works that well on this podcast.

[Gina Mathewson]

No, it doesn't. It doesn't. And, like, I also think the kids stuff in Annie is. Is not the best parts of Annie. The best part of Annie is Easy Street.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Okay. Maybe you will come up for Annie one day, but not today. Because. Because then we were just like, okay, well, we got to record something. And then we decided, and they kind of shot from the ether, and I was like, how the fuck have I never talked about this movie before?

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Waitress.

[Gina Mathewson]

Waitress. It's so good.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

I don't even remember why or how I watched it for the first time. Like, I don't know where I heard about it because it wasn't like a massive release and I definitely didn't see it in the cinema, but I have watched it so many times over the years and, like, been dedicated to it for a very long time.

[Caroline]

And I have the same thing. I remember seeing it in the theaters with my mother when it came out, and I was still in school, I think, and really liking it. And I think the reason this movie has had the staying power it has. I mean, first of all, I mean, we'll get to it, but the sort of chilling reality around the writer, director Adrian Shelley's career in life that was cut so devastatingly short. But also, I think the reason this movie has the staying power it does is because, you know, it, like, deals with very meaty things that real women do deal with without doing it in, like a kitchen sink way. It's very stylized.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's very stylized. And I also think it's. It's very human in a way that often it's very easy to fall into obvious cliches and tropes when you're dealing with themes like this. And it doesn't really do that. Like, everything is a little bit more strange than you expect in a movie of this genre. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caroline]

And I think, like, I mean, you kind of need to take it apart scene by scene to understand how the motor really runs with this one. Because, like, the ways in which it is genius are so subtle and like, you know, the way it sort of dawns on you, like, oh, wow, we're dealing with a master here. Because it looks so innocent and so pretty and uses imagery we've seen so many times before from, like, small town, Americana type movies. Takes you a while to realize you're dealing with something quite, quite profound.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I think one of the first indicators of that is, like, when you're. You start in the credits with these, like, pie scenes and you're like, wow, I wish we in Western Europe had a relationship to pie that America has to pie. Wow, it's so nice to see this many pies.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. A beautiful tray of pies at your diner. You can get a slice of cherry.

[Caroline]

Pie, beautifully shot pies, wonderful open pies, weird colored pies, whatever. And then immediately you cut into the person who's making the pies. Beautiful Keri Russell in a darling little uniform. And then the immediate drama is her taking a pregnancy test and talking about how much she doesn't want to take the pregnancy test, how much she doesn't want to be pregnant, and, like, pretty quickly how much she hates her husband because she doesn't want his. You know, she hates him. He's awful. Everyone agrees he's awful. Everyone agrees her life is awful. Like, everything. Everything sucks. And she just doesn't want to be pregnant. And look, she is. Yeah, yeah. And we meet her and her two.

[Gina Mathewson]

Friends and her two gorgeous friends, Cheryl Hynes and Adrienne Shelley herself.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Gina Mathewson]

And it is also, again, masterful the way it is just genuinely funny right from the start, as it is also being devastating. Like, I love that scene when they're talking about how awful her life is. And they both repeatedly are saying things like, well, I have an invalid husband and one boob higher than my other, but I still wouldn't share anyways with you.

[Caroline]

And I've got pasty, pasty skin.

[Gina Mathewson]

I am sorry, Americans. We are going to keep doing that. Yeah, sorry, sorry. We mean well.

[Caroline]

We mean well.

[Gina Mathewson]

We love the movie. Yeah.

[Caroline]

But also, it really occurred to me, like, the power of the Southern accent during this.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yes.

[Caroline]

Because, like, there are several times in this script where characters simply say what's going on? Or, like, say what their role is in the film. Like, the old man coming in being like, own this pie shop. Now, if you'd like, seen that written in the script, you'd be like, the thing is, Adrian, you have to show, not tell or whatever. But because, like, a Southern accent. Yeah. There's a reason that, like, Southern people are always being cast on reality shows. They're really good at stating the obvious in a really entertaining way. Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. I'm just coming home here with full charm and tell you exactly who I am and why I'm here.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, it's.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, it's a real boon for plot developing lines. And also, it's just charming as hell. Like, it's beautiful.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

I think that first scene from the bathroom to the store with the three girls together, I think it's very important that it starts with the three of them. Like, this is a movie about a woman who is surrounded by women, you know, and it's the only the three of them, but it feels like the most important relationships in her life. And I love that. I love just starting off on a foot of, like, there are men here, but they're not as important as the women.

[Caroline]

So give me a potted sense of, like, who Jenna is and who these women are.

[Gina Mathewson]

Jenna is. She is the master pie maker of this diner. She makes inventive, interesting, weird pies that she gives weird, inventive names to. And she is, you know, young and beautiful and married to a man with a full head of hair. And we still wouldn't trade places with her in a million years because she is married to a handsome man with a full head of hair who was very controlling and abusive. And it feels very much like her job is the only place she is safe. Really.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

That is where she is the most relaxed. And then she has her two friends. Becky, played by Cheryl Hines, who is older and acerbic and the most dressed up and glamorous of the three.

[Caroline]

Yeah. When you look up the phrase brassy dame.

[Gina Mathewson]

Brassy dame.

[Caroline]

That's who you get. You get Cheryl Hines in this movie.

[Gina Mathewson]

Absolutely. And then dawn, who is played by the writer, Directori Giancelli, who was little and thinks she's ugly and thinks no man will ever love her and is adorable and has these fantastic glasses, those real, like, 1950s secretary glasses. And this is the thing I find fascinating from a bit later. I always love looking at when people cast themselves in their own movies that they have written the lines they give to describe their characters. Like, there's a bit where Jenna does Dawn's makeup for a date and Cheryl Hines says, oh, you look so pretty. Your skin looks like a normal person's.

[Caroline]

And I love that.

[Gina Mathewson]

And like, there was a scene. I don't know if you saw a real pain recently. There's a scene. It was written and directed by Jesse Eisenberg. And there's a whole scene where Culkin, Karen Culkin, goes on about how beautiful Jesse Eisenberg's feet are.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God, I love that. I love what you put in your.

[Gina Mathewson]

Movies to be said about you.

[Caroline]

I love that. God, and that's so interesting, the thing of Adrian as well, of, like, how she would have as an actor. She was an actor as well. And you can still catch her popping up in things. And she's always really noticeable when you see her. Even very small roles. That's a job you have where you have to be aware of your physical attributes and in quotes, your physical shortcomings. And the way that she did exercise those demons by just having people constantly refer to her as this kind of ugly duckling with pasty, pasty skin. It's like, oh, your skin almost looks like a normal color.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Must have been oddly exercising for her, you know.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. But I think that's ideally to be a performer. This performing is a weird thing because it attracts people with egos. But to do it well, you kind of have to be able to let go of your ego.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

And she. She feels like someone who really. She finds it more entertaining to talk about herself than to worry about.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

How she, you know, that's the vibe I get from mainly this movie. But. Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

I think what's. So you mentioned the glasses, and there is this, like, in a way, this movie feels very out of time. Like, it has that thing that, you know, is it. It could be 1970, it could be 1995, it could be 2007, it could be contemporary.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It kind of. It looks at this kind of part of small town Americana that doesn't. That exists in everyone's mind. Yeah. More than it exists in a specific place. And it sort of really borrows from a kind of a 1950s aesthetic as well. Like, there's those glasses, their little uniforms, the way things are lit, the way it's colored, the way these pies are.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I think what's. So what really adds to the sort of, like, darkness and the flavor of the movie is that, like, we think of the 1950s and, like, the. The cartoon of the smiling pie lady who looks like how Keri Russell looks.

[Gina Mathewson]

Right.

[Caroline]

Like, with. You can imagine, like, a little graphic glint in her teeth, you know, when she's smiling almost.

[Gina Mathewson]

She could be slapped on a box to sell you a frozen pie at the supermarket.

[Caroline]

1,000%. And, like, we think of this as an idealized time, but, like, these are women who are like. Or at least our main character, Jenna, she's trapped in the way that we think that, like, we don't often think of that, you know, of, like.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

You know, obviously no one thinks of the 50s as being, like, a paragon of women's rights or anything, but the idea that, like, she's a woman who is in, like, a deeply abusive relationship, that it has, like, burrowed its way into her brain, into her self worth, into what she thinks she's allowed to do or to enjoy.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And I just think the way that the aesthetic and the themes of the movie, I just. I'll never get over it. I think it's so good.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's just a perfect balance, I think. I think that's deceptively hard to do. I think there are a lot of people who try to do dark themes in pastels or in pinks, and it can so easily become grating and insincere and.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

It just isn't. It just. It. Yeah, it feels. It is very stylized, but it feels very real and normal, you know, that life is never just one thing. Like. Yeah, you don't just. You are in an abusive marriage. That's not all that you have. Like, you're also. She's also this beautiful creator. Like, she has. She's an artist who gets to do that and express that and takes joy in that, and she has fun at work. Like, it's very. I don't know. Feels like just comfortably sitting in a very complex reality.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Gina Mathewson]

Rather than setting things against each other.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Like, even the depiction of the abuse itself.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Is something I have never seen in any other movie. And I guess that's. I mean, I don't want to say that, like, men are incapable of depicting this kind of abuse in nuanced ways, because of course they have. But, like, it's the. The thing of. I'm used to seeing abusers in movies as being these, like, almost dragons that women have to get past. And for sure, that's true of Earl. But, like, what I feel like is the most prominent thing about Earl. Like, yes, he's, like, scary. Yes. He's angry. Yes. He's sometimes violent. Not always, but, like, sometimes violent. But I think what's the scariest thing about him is his insecurity.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And he's the. He's so weak.

[Gina Mathewson]

He's so weak, and he's so desperate and needy. And that's where it's coming from. Like, it's. It's not. Because I think. I think abuse and a lot of similar crimes come from a desire to control someone. The belief that you're entitled to control someone. But I've never seen it portrayed as something that is like, that is what. That is what's going on. But it's also wrapped around this fear of being alone and this. This desperate need to cling on to Jenna. And he. The only way he knows how to do that is by, you know, controlling her. It's. It's really interesting, and I think it's. I think it's also interesting that you don't. You don't see that much violence. The violence is almost always just potential. And that is enough for you to know that it's happened frequently in the past. There's enough for you to get a full picture of what this relationship is like. But I do think a lot of domestic abuse stories lean so heavily in, like, showing you the violence in a way that can be, I don't know, a bit gratuitous sometimes.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Whereas this is just like. No, this isn't in. Who is she is afraid of with good reason. And you don't need to See much more than that.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I think. I think that, like, quote unquote, the most we see is he, like, slaps her, which is hard to look at.

[Gina Mathewson]

Right.

[Caroline]

But, like, I. Actually, what's. What's amazing about this film is that there are times where it's hard to watch and it's hard to bear at certain times, but because, like, it holds you so firmly.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it, like, it's on you just like, it's not. Like, when you see other things where you feel like there's something, like, titillating or exciting about the abuse that you're showing. There's something that's very. Like, we're on your side or something when you're watching it. I don't know what that specific. I would like to know how men feel watching this film.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

So, yes, he does slap her in that scene. But that's not the most upsetting scene.

[Gina Mathewson]

No. Of their relationship. No.

[Caroline]

Like, for me, that thing when he finds money that she's been sucking away so she can escape.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And he, like, falls to his knees and he. So he drags her from a wedding. Like, he makes a huge scene at the wedding. He, like, kicks a chair over, drags her basically by the hair home, shows her all the places where he's found her money that she stashed. And then he begs her on his knees for him. For her to tell him that he was. She was sucking away that money to buy him a present.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. Yeah. And the. The way that she responds to that, just like, this is something she has learned she has to do to say, yes, I bought it for you. There's a deadness to that that is horrifying. It's really. Yeah. It's very effective.

[Caroline]

That it's all about just, like, creating a reality that you can live in this man with. Live with. In this reality with. Even if it's so, like, obviously fake and he doesn't care if it's fake.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, and it's. It's from the beginning of their interactions. He's like, tell me you love me. Tell me this. And he doesn't care how insincerely she develops it. And she's almost like her one. Like, it reminds me of that thing that came out about Britney Spears about, like, how her one. When she was sort of like, under her conservatorship, the one ways that she would show her own defiance is by never tossing her hair. Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, Carrie's. Russell's not tossing her hair is not shifting her tone. Like, we know she's like a warm, lovely woman, but she refuses to give an inch more than she has to to this man who kind of has her in prison.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so she'll be like, I love you, Earl. It was kind of flat. And, like, when they're having sex, he'll like that. He, like, begs her for.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And then, like, he'll say, like, tell me something sexy. And she'll go, what do you want me to say?

[Gina Mathewson]

And then he just immediately, oh, there's a beautiful moment. That's one of my favorite moments when he's just. She's like, what do you want me to say?

[Caroline]

He's like, I know. It's. It's so. I was like, oh, my God, I love women. Why aren't there more women directors, writing directors? Because, like, the. The. The. The darkness of that comedy.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

God, it's so good. I had written it down on my notes. Just that. Just the line in quotes, say something sexy. What do you want me to say? Comes.

[Caroline]

Comes instantly. Like, it's such a. Like, what is your. We'll get to the lighter parts of the film because this is, like, you know, there's many different shades and flavors going on this movie, but it's kind of. I don't know, it's the most interesting, I guess, to start with the hardest stuff. What's your impression of Earl as a man? Like, something we said when we were watching it together was like, I feel like I can see the man. I can see the boy he was and how he was parented and how he became this person.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Caroline]

It.

[Gina Mathewson]

It feels very much like. It feels very much like there was violence in his childhood, but also, more importantly, probably neglect.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

The fact that he. He needs so often to be reassured is very, very. Like, it feels like. I mean, it is abandonment issues. Right. It's desperation not to be alone. So I think that means that suggests that he was probably alone a lot. To me, it seems like this is a couple. They were high school sweethearts that got married right out of high school. And.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

The moment that they were responsible for their own lives, he became so afraid of being alone that he turned into what we see in the film, which is violent and controlling.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And you really get the sense as well, that these are two people who are alone in the world.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yes.

[Caroline]

You know, I think that a lot.

[Gina Mathewson]

There'S a film about people who are alone. I think, like, at least that is how everyone starts out. Everyone is like, you have the old. The old man who. Who I Own this diner. Who.

[Caroline]

I own this at the end, refers.

[Gina Mathewson]

To her as his only friend. And then you have dawn, who is sure no one will ever love her, is obsessed with finding love because she thinks she's unlovable. And Becky, who is married to some kind of invalid dementia.

[Caroline]

I love how you never hear any.

[Gina Mathewson]

More about my invalid husband.

[Caroline]

Basically a vegetable. It's so. It's so fun again. But she's in, like. I have no doubt in my mind that that character cares for her husband as well as she can, and there's a lot of love there, but she.

[Gina Mathewson]

Is his carer and not his wife anymore.

[Caroline]

At this point, I think, yeah, whatever happened, that's the deal now. But, like, just the warmth and the callousness at the same time is just. I'm just obsessed with it.

[Gina Mathewson]

I love it so much. And even Dr. Pomatter, like, he just has moved to this town where he knows no one for his wife, who you don't see until the very end, and all he has is this new patient he's obsessed with.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Dr. Pomatter, played by Nathan Fillion, a charming, charming man. It's such a weird role. It's so weird.

[Gina Mathewson]

I love it so much.

[Caroline]

I love it.

[Gina Mathewson]

I'm such a sucker for a romantic hero whose basic deal is that he doesn't really know what to do with all these feelings, but he thinks he should do something.

[Caroline]

It's very Phantom of the Opera.

[Gina Mathewson]

I also think it's important to note, before we forget to note it, that terrible Earl, the bad husband, is played by Elton from Clueless.

[Caroline]

Oh, my God. I didn't see this until you told me.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Crazy.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's crazy. He's such a good bad guy.

[Caroline]

So Elton from Clueless is the guy who was supposed to get with Ty, played by Brittany Murphy.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. Where Cher tries to set Ty up with him, but then he is actually going for Cher, and then they get.

[Caroline]

Into a fight, and then she sort of. He trips her out of a car, and that's when she gets mugged.

[Gina Mathewson]

I think she gets mugged. She has to lie on the ground in her Alaia dress.

[Caroline]

So. Yeah, I mean, like, her Alaia dress. Yes. But so, like, let's. Like this actor. I'm sure he's in. I'm sure somebody will write in being like, that guy was in eight seasons of the Shield or whatever.

[Gina Mathewson]

He's one of those guys. Jeremy Sisto is his name, and he is one of those guys who I remember those actors who I remember as, like, a Teen heartthrob existing in the world more than I remember him from being in things that I saw.

[Caroline]

Well, I gotta say, he's remarkably gifted. He is, like, one of the few abusers on screen I have ever felt sorry for. Like, truly sorry for. Not in a way that I want him to, like, get the girl in the way that I want him to, like, get help rather than go to jail, you know? But back to Dr. Pomodor.

[Gina Mathewson]

Dr. Pomodore, 9th and Fillion.

[Caroline]

And also just like, yeah, yeah. This movie about people who are alone and weird. Everyone in this movie is weird.

[Gina Mathewson]

Everyone in this movie is weird. And because I think Adrienne Shelley was weird. And I think that's beautiful.

[Caroline]

I think that's beautiful.

[Gina Mathewson]

I love it so much.

[Caroline]

And something I really noticed on this watch around, and I know it, because we're both, like, Gilmore Girls fans, is like, this movie feels like a movie set in Stars Hollow.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, I know it's in the south and not in New England, but, like, apart from that, for Gilmore Girls fans, in the Gilmore Girls, canonically, there are two cafes. One of them is Luke's Diner, where the bulk of the action happens. And the other. And this is like, the genius of the Gilmore Girls is Westons. And, like, it's so, like, every neighborhood has the coffee shop you go to and the coffee shop you don't go to. And I believe that the cast of Waitress are at Weston's. They are the people who go to Weston's.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. You just don't see them because you're always at Luke's unless Lorelei and Luke are in a fight.

[Caroline]

But, like, everybody has that sort of Stars Hollow, like, small town, I'm a freak, but my place is here kind of thing.

[Gina Mathewson]

Everyone's a real character.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And like. And even Nathan Fillion's character, who's supposed. Even the heartthrobs are characters. He's just, like. It's so fucking weird. So he's introduced, like, she goes. She's pregnant. She doesn't want to be. She goes to the doctor. The doctor who generally takes her has partially retired. She's introduced to this young junior doctor man who's just moved to town. He is awkward as hell.

[Gina Mathewson]

He is bumbling in a way you expect an Englishman to be.

[Caroline]

Yes. So true.

[Gina Mathewson]

But he's an American, and he manages it. Not many American actors can bumble like Nathan fillion can.

[Caroline]

He's bumble.com? he's bumble.com. he's a feminist app for women. Yeah. And, like, even the small grace notes that feel like they must have been made up on the day of, like, you know, he's a new. He's in a new job in a new place and, like, in. His doctor is, like, full of shit.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It's, like, full of stuff everywhere. He's got files everywhere. There's nowhere for him to sit down.

[Gina Mathewson]

There'S doilies on his office chair.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Nothing.

[Caroline]

He doesn't fit here. He doesn't make sense here. And, like, they have old lady doctor's.

[Gina Mathewson]

Office and he is a young man.

[Caroline]

He's a young man. He's a young, young man just out of Jersey. And, like, they have this sort of, like, set of interactions that get progressively stranger.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Starting with her in the office. And it's like that thing. And it's so, like, I understand that the US does not have the nhs. And they should have the nhs.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yes, they should. We should also have the nhs, but better.

[Caroline]

We should have the nhs, but better. Because, like, there's something that's so. NHS about her doctor's meeting, where they ask you if you have a question and then you say. And they go, maybe a question about this? And you go, yeah, sure, what about that? And they go, well, I have a pamphlet right here. So it's like they're prodding you to be more curious. You get curious and then they fob you off in another party.

[Gina Mathewson]

They're like, please try and troubleshoot this on your own before you waste my time.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's nuts. It is such an HS meeting that poor Jenna has.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And. Yeah. And then, like, so they have that. It's a bit mad. And then shortly after, she sees him again when she's waiting for the bus, and he basically sits down next to her and he's like, oh, hey, good to see you. And she's like, hey. And he basically says, so I have a fetish about waitresses.

[Gina Mathewson]

Same thing for waitresses.

[Caroline]

It's so nuts. And it's one of those things where it's like, if this man were less attractive, you would call the police.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because he just, like. He's like. You know, when I was growing up, there was a pie shop and there was a woman who worked there, and I had a crush on her and she used to wear a uniform just like yours. And you remind me of her, actually. And then years later, when I was a doctor, she came in with an ovarian cyst and I removed it. She was 50 or so by then. Anyway. Did I mention that you remind me of her. And then she says something to the effect of, you're strange.

[Gina Mathewson]

But this is my favorite kind of love story where I don't. I have opinions about the function the love story plays in this movie, which we will get to. But my favorite kind of love story is just two people who just become more and more fascinated by each other.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's not like. It's just like, what is going on with you? What's going on with you? I'm so interested. And then that's how they fall in love. And it's beautiful.

[Caroline]

Like, I just.

[Gina Mathewson]

I just think that's the best. Like, if you actually. Because that's what it's like. Right. Like, you're just trying to. I just want to understand what makes you tick, you know?

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

What is love if not then.

[Caroline]

And it's so interesting because, like, I think it's such a confident choice as a writer to do that.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because I think the temptation with a rom com or a love story or whatever is that you write this chemistry that instantly pings and you see that this person who has a partner who does, like, it's the kind of. I don't know, it's very like Nora Ephroni or something. And like, you see Tom Hanks's girlfriend, Parker Posey, and she doesn't get him and Meg Ryan. And then they. They ping off each other. But then it turns out afterwards they're not supposed to ping off each other because of evil book tactics and business. But, like, I like the confidence to write characters who are both fairly awkward.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And don't ping.

[Gina Mathewson]

No.

[Caroline]

At all.

[Gina Mathewson]

No. Yeah. And I think it's one of those things that is putting in the script what I always want from a rom com performance, which is. And this is what I kind of think maybe charisma, maybe chemistry is. But you want your. At least your romantic hero to be really good at looking at.

[Caroline]

People say more like the.

[Gina Mathewson]

This is. It's just this moment. The first. The first time I saw someone put this into words really succinctly. I think it was Angelica. Joe Bastian was talking about James Marsden in 127Dresses or 27Dresses. However many dresses.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

And how he just stares at her as if she's the most fascinating thing in the world when she's being crazy. And it's like. It's so romantic and there. And like when you start looking for men who look at women right. Like, the best is Colin Firth and Pride and Prejudice. He's so good at Staring at people. Glen Powell, very good at staring at people. That's why he's such a good rom com lead.

[Caroline]

Okay.

[Gina Mathewson]

Very, very good at just like really looking. This is why Jonathan Bailey has charisma with every single cast of member of the cast of Wicked. Because he looks. He just looks. You know, it's so important and it is giving that, that idea that you're just trying to understand someone. Like. And that's always been in the best romcom performances in my opinion. But this is, it's just, it's just in the writing. It's just like I wanna. You're so weird.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

What the fuck is up with you? What the.

[Caroline]

And how can I line up with you?

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. I can't get enough of how weird you are.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

God, yeah. And they're both so like. Because she's. It's better to write her this, right, this way of like. Yeah. Just being fascinated by how weird someone is rather than like instant pingy chatty chemistry.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because like when someone's job is being tipped for being nice. You know what I mean? Like, she's a nice waitress. She's nice to everybody. The old man who hates everybody likes her because she's nice to everybody. And when you, when she meets somebody who likes, breaks down her defenses, not because he's charming and not because he's aggressive, but because he's fucking weird. And she has like no tools with how to deal with him because he's all so hot and weird.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yes. And I think it's set against that. You commented when we were talking earlier, when we were watching when she, she writes that first letter to her baby and she's, she makes the comment not, not most people in this world aren't worth meeting or something. It's like. And then she meets a guy who's really worth meeting because he's so weird.

[Caroline]

So weird and nice, but also weird. So then like she, how does it go? She's like, how do they first kiss again?

[Gina Mathewson]

It is one of my all time favorite movie kisses. It's after that she's had an appointment and he. So she called. No, this is what happens. She calls up because she's been spotting.

[Caroline]

Yes. Fuck, this is great.

[Gina Mathewson]

She's like, I've been spotting. And he says, okay, we'll come in tomorrow morning at 7 before work and I will see you. And she comes in and he says, have you.

[Caroline]

Oh, and there's no one there. He answers the door because the surgery.

[Gina Mathewson]

Doesn'T open until 9:30 or something. And she he asks her how she is, and he's like, is it just. Have you been spotting a lot? And she was like, no, it's just the once. And he said. And he says, well, that's fine. Spotting a little is completely normal at the stage of pregnancy. And she's like, why did you bring me all the way in here? I had to get in to town so much earlier so I could get here in time for work. There's no one else here. What a weird thing to do. And then she leaves and he goes out.

[Caroline]

Oh. And he says, I have no answer for that.

[Gina Mathewson]

I have no answer for that.

[Caroline]

We should all be more comfortable with just saying that. Like, I have no answer for that. I just have no answer for that.

[Gina Mathewson]

And so she kind of yells at him a little bit for dragging her in there when he could have just said that over the phone. And then she storms out and says, oh, fuck, I forgot my purse. And he is bringing her purse out after her. And she just walks straight up to him and just kisses him really hard. Immediately out of nowhere. And I love it so much. Just like an immediate, oh, fuck, I need to kiss this man so good.

[Caroline]

It's so good. It's so good. I adore. Yeah, I adore this movie.

[Gina Mathewson]

And I love their little codes and stuff. Like when she comes in and she hasn't talked to him for a few weeks and he's like, you haven't called with any questions or concerns.

[Caroline]

The repeated thing of questions or concerns.

[Gina Mathewson]

Questions or concerns.

[Caroline]

And then at a certain point she says in a biting way, and he gives her a look like, don't use our funny codes in a mean way. I won't have it.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And like, it's just one of the best there. I think there are some questionable uses of music in this film. They don't all work, but one that really works for me and it's. It's like a decades long sort of obsession with this song since is like she. They have this kiss. It's very confusing. They meet again at her appointment a little while later and he says, I'm so sorry. That was so unprofessional of me to kiss you. It'll never happen again. I was very tired. I was very overworked. It's a new place. And then she kisses him again. And then they go at it again. And then he sort of sits her down in his office and is like, I don't want you to ever ignore me again.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. You can't just leave me for weeks.

[Caroline]

Me, your doctor why would you leave me alone here? Me, your doctor, in my office, where I work. And she's like, okay. And he's like, I'd like you to come in Friday. And she's like, okay. Do you have a lunch break? Okay. And then in a delivery that is so Kirk from the Gilmore Girls, he gets up, leaves the room with his big, tall, long Nathan fillion body and he just goes, I wish we were Friday. And just leaves. And she's so gobsmacked. And then you hear this mic drop of like needle drop of cakes, short skirt, long jacket.

[Gina Mathewson]

And it's just that.

[Caroline]

I want a girl with eyes like a diamond. It's so good. And you have this whole thing of her being so freaked out by what just happened. And then slowly as the day goes on, her freaked out smile, like it's.

[Gina Mathewson]

Like a montage of her just sitting in various places, just like beaming.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Just like the confusion turning to this full beam, like, oh my God, like somebody wants to have sex with me in not a scary way.

[Gina Mathewson]

Not a scary way. Someone is. Someone is kind.

[Caroline]

People are kind.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

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[Caroline]

What I love about this movie as well is it has this. Despite it being so stylized and romantic in places, it has this real commitment to realism that like, people are concerned for her for sure, but also like, they know she's with this terrible man. She knows she's now pregnant with this terrible man's child. And like her, her avenues for exits are getting smaller and smaller.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And further and further apart. But also they kind of know she won't leave him and they kind of know they can't do anything about it. So they just sort of continue with their lives and like they hold their concern for her with them at all times. But also it's a bit, I think There's a lot of moments where it's like she's a bit like. Like dawn will say, oh, will you get me ready for my date night? And then she'll be, like, putting on Dawn's makeup in the bathroom at the. At the diner, and she'll be saying basically things about how she's terrified of her husband. And Dawn's a bit like. Oh, yeah. You know, and it's just. It's grim, but it's. There's a realism to it that I really appreciate.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

That no one's trying to solve her way out of her.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Her situation for her.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. They know exactly why it's hard to leave. She can't afford to, and where would she go? And all of the normal reasons that come up when it's. When you're trapped somewhere and you don't know how to get out. And I think it's also like a real. It places it in a. In a. Like, in a. An old context, you know? Like, these are people who have grown up in this small town.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Where people are poor. There's probably a lot of domestic violence. Like, this is life. These are. This is.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

This is a reality of life. Everyone's got their thing, you know, everyone's got their thing that they're dealing with.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

And no one has a lot of options. Yeah. And yet they live and they're happy, you know, in various ways. And they're friends and they're not unsatisfied. It's like a lot of things being true at once in a very compassionate way, I think.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And then we have Dawn's romance.

[Gina Mathewson]

Then we have Dawn's romance.

[Caroline]

Should we deal with the two others little subplots?

[Gina Mathewson]

Let's deal with the two others little subplots. So dawn, who believes no one will ever love her, goes on a date with a man called Ogie.

[Caroline]

Ogie, short for Oklahoma.

[Gina Mathewson]

Who initially is very stalkery, but then she falls in love with him.

[Caroline]

The things they say about Ogie. I think you're a scary, freaky little elf. Call him like, a gnome and a goblin. He's so funny. I know. Like, every now and then people try and come up with these missives about stalking in rom coms, and I do get it. Yes. And particularly in this rom com, which is so about, like, toxic dynamics.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yes.

[Caroline]

I like the kind of. I don't know. I like Ogie. I like how he's like, I will not be taken no for an answer. Because he's like, she could get rid of him. If she wants.

[Gina Mathewson]

He's got no power. He's this little man, and he's just like, no, I know what I want, and I'm going to sit here until I get it. I think you're beautiful. And I do wish. The one thing I wish is that I wish we saw a little bit. Like, we don't. We see everything from Jenna's point of view, so we don't see this. And that's, you know, one of the things about storytelling. But for me, I would love to see a bit more of that journey.

[Caroline]

Yeah. He grows on you.

[Gina Mathewson]

He grows. And I want to see him grow. I want the chance for him to grow on me a little bit more.

[Caroline]

You're right, though. Like, I. I love the decidedly selective scope of what we see. And you're right. We only see what Jenna sees, which is like, a very, like, novelistic approach to.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Because I think you, like, in general, contemporary rom coms, you see a lot of characters on their own, characters having their own thing, but, like, you only really see things as they revolve around Jenna. She's kind of in every scene, more or less.

[Gina Mathewson]

I think mostly with rom coms, if you see more than one point of view, it's the two leads. You see Sally and Harry's point of view.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. But you don't see, like, Carrie Fisher alone.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you just cut. Like, even you can do more easily. Multiple points of view, but you can't. It doesn't mean you can easily do it. You know, it's a comparative thing, but it's still. You've got to make a choice. Otherwise it feels, like, messy.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

So construction. So. Yeah. You don't have to see it. You just have to believe it. Because she just has to believe it. She just has to accept that.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

If dawn fell in love with him, then she fell in love with him.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And what I like is that, again, it's one of those things that's really in the performance of, like, when he's there to pick her up from work, you just believe that, like, she's thrilled to see him. Yeah. Like, she's so excited to see him. And I find it so weird because, like, even in between the first and second time, you see Ogie, the first time, he's like this tiny little gnome. He's like glowing eyes with his stupid poems. Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

So good. He just. I think what it is is he really. You really do believe that he will cherish her and she deserves to be cherished.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And we just Believe that she's going to be okay. And this is not a movie where everybody being okay is a given.

[Gina Mathewson]

No. Yeah.

[Caroline]

Yeah, but that's.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, that's dawn and then. And then Becky.

[Caroline]

And then Becky, who's just like. I mean, her. Her subplot is even thinner. It's just like she's been. She's been having sex with the guy.

[Gina Mathewson]

Who manages the fucking shop with the line. With the line shift line cook, who is married, and she's married, and they just have been fooling around. And I love when she talks about it when Jenna has found out and she. Jenna is like, do you love him? And she's like, I don't know, but I love it. I love having someone to dress up for.

[Caroline]

Yes.

[Gina Mathewson]

She's just like, I'm having a little adventure and I. I don't get to do that. And it's like. It's really sweet.

[Caroline]

I love that bit of writing. I love. I don't know if I love him, but I love it.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And, like, we did an episode on Mistresses about a year ago with Madeleine Gray, and I think that's when we spoke about this. This. This. This movie before, which is that, like, there are very few depictions of women having extramarital affairs in TV and cinema. Like. Like shockingly few. And the other thing I think about a lot is the fact that there's no. It. Yeah. There's no. The word for the mistress, but there's.

[Gina Mathewson]

No word for a woman's. The personal woman is having an affair with.

[Caroline]

Yeah, I guess you could say lover or.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, but that doesn't suggest infidelity. That's.

[Caroline]

Yeah, exactly. It doesn't really exist.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, that is. That's never occurred to me before.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's.

[Gina Mathewson]

But it's one. One of the things that I love is that this movie is so content to be. To not moralize about anyone. Like, it doesn't do it about anyone in this film. Like, no. No one is making 100 good choices. No one is. Is making 100 bad choices. They're all just kind of doing their best. And it doesn't ask you to judge anyone. Like, even. Even Earl. Like, the reason that you feel a little bit of compassion for him, even though he is a controlling, abusive household that everyone should get away from, is because he just feels like a full person. Like, he's. He's got more going on than just that, because people do. It's incredible writing, incredible direction on the.

[Caroline]

Moralizing thing as well, and how it sort of refuses to moralize. As a movie. Like, it doesn't judge any of these women for having affairs. Like, there's two separate women having extramarital affairs in this movie, and it judges neither of them. Even if they briefly judge each other, they get past it very quickly and they realize that wine. They love each other more than they hate affairs. It also never judges the wives or.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Or like, there's even a part where Jenna says to Cheryl. Not Cheryl, Becky. Like, we like her. Like, she tells him to stop yelling at us and she's like, who cares? Kind of thing, essentially. And then later on, we meet Dr. Pomatter's wife and she seems lovely as well. And she even says, like, wow, she looks at you with so much trust.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And like that. Like it's. It's just a movie that isn't interested in selling out any form of womanhood. No. Like, it's just a very pro women movie.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Even if people hurt other women in the choices they make.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, I love that about it.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Can we talk on the subjects of morals? Like, the. The whole thing as well? And I feel like this is a very rare thing to see in film, to see a pregnant woman who is completely unmaternal.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. It's really interesting also to see. I think the whole setup is. Is. Is interesting around her pregnancy, both in that she. She doesn't want the baby, but she's not going to get an abortion and she's not going to try and be happy about it. She's just. This is a fact of her life. It's another thing that she's dealing with, and that's the reality of it. But also, she's a pregnant woman who is depicted as, like, sexual and sexy and romantic. And those things aren't in conflict. There's no, like, the only suggestion that they would be is their one point when. Or there are a few points when Earl makes comments about her body is like, oh, you're getting fat. And.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

When you, you know, lose the baby weight. But the movie itself, indefinitely. Dr. Porman, like, there's no. There's no bothering to ask that question because it doesn't a question that needs to be asked. But I feel like often is.

[Caroline]

You're right. It wears that so casually.

[Gina Mathewson]

So casually. It's like, this isn't an issue.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It never really. Yeah. Never really comes up and you just sort of accept it. But then, like, think of anything else where a pregnant woman is having a very sexual affair with somebody who isn't the father of that child. Like, it's. It's pretty amazing.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. Happened in Superstore, actually. That's the only other thing I can think of where there is, like, a romance with a pregnant woman, with someone who is not the father of her baby.

[Caroline]

And it makes me wonder a lot whether Adrienne Shelley, whether she wrote this while she was pregnant.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, I think she might have, actually. I think I have read in bits about the making of this that. That she did write it while she was pregnant with her daughter, and it might have been a way of her processing ambivalence about pregnancy and motherhood, or it might just all be made up. I don't want to assume that any part of any woman's writing is autobiographical, because that happens all the time. But it is like, you know, the things you think about when you are going through a life stage are gonna influence what you think about when you're writing something similar.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. Again, I don't know whether I will never know whether or not it is autobiographical in any way, but I. But, like, you know, I find that interesting, the whole thing of, like, accusing women of autobiography and their work, when I feel like it's like all. All work done by everybody is coming.

[Gina Mathewson]

Out of your experience of life.

[Caroline]

Yeah, yeah. And like, of course, even if you're writing, like, you know, Deepest Fantasy or sci fi, you're still on some human level trying to process what's happening to you in the moment of your life, even if you're not explicitly discussing it. So, like, I feel. Yeah, I mean, there's. There's a lot of complicated stuff around pregnancy and being a mother around here. And, like, she's not given a lot of reasons to look forward to motherhood. And I think what's so fascinating about the way she turns and the way we see her, like, become this sort of mother warrior in the. In the. In the final scenes is that, like, she. I think she said at a certain point that she feels like when she's writing to her baby that she feels like all the love has been sort of crushed out of her. Like, every sort of vulnerable part of her has been made hard and that she's got nothing to offer this child.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And so really, her kind of lack of maternity, like. Yeah, her lack of maternity is, like, genuine as well. Not everybody has to be maternal. Not everybody is. But it also comes out of this really naked sense of, like. I don't think I have anything for you. There's nothing here. There's nothing here at the store today. I'm sorry. You know, and then we just see this moment where she. She meets her baby and, like, she's about to run away with Dr. Pomatter.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, she was about to run away with him when her waters broke.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

And then she has the baby, and for a long time, she, like, won't look at it. She's looking away while the nurses are wrapping it up in blankets. And then they finally hand her the baby, and she looks down at her, and it just. Everything changes in a moment, which is, again, not a given, I'm sure, not what happens with every experience of childbirth. But it's just this really interesting choice as well, to just slowly, the room around her literally goes out of focus. And there's that really interesting shot. Like, it's between it. The camera is on her from a distance as her husband and the doctor are talking at the end of her bed. And they are out of focus, and she's in focus but far away. And it's just. It's just really still. Nice moment.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think as well that, like, I. I don't know, maybe it's because I'm, like, sort of contemplating this live stage a lot, but I feel like I see so much about all the things that motherhood takes from you and how you're left sort of weaker. I get not weaker, but, you know, I mean, like, less relevant, less in control of your mental faculties, like, whatever. I just feel like we're, like. I understand that, you know, we need to hear the truth about motherhood, but I feel like we're getting a lot of the worst truths a lot at the moment.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's a real swing.

[Caroline]

There's a real swing of, like. I know that there was, like, a real smug mummy thing that lots of mothers became mothers during that time when that culture was really widespread.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And. And back then as well, it was like, kind of mummy bloggers and all that kind of vibe who were just kind of women trying to make a living. Really?

[Gina Mathewson]

Really. But, like, yeah, that thing where they were making motherhood look easy and fun.

[Caroline]

And appreciated, and the difficult parts are, like, sweet, you know, the stress is, like, funny, you know, and for lots of people, it isn't funny and whatever. They feel like this kind of quite bleak aspect of being a mother was underrepresented. And now it feels like there's kind of a swing where, like, if you pick up the majority of books about modern motherhood, like novels or shows or whatever, it feels like the creation of new people is a human rights violation. Do you know what I mean, like, that's how it feels.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, I think so. And on some social media as well. Like, there's just been a real. Let's be honest, ladies, this is the worst thing in the world. It's like, okay, I'm sure sometimes it is.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

But I don't. That's not all that it is. Yeah. I feel like we need a. We need to balance as a culture.

[Caroline]

Yeah. Like, we just. We need. We need some fucking balance, man. For the love of God. Like, can they. Can I please get some more of the smug mummy propaganda? Because I'd quite like to have a child, and I'd like to. I'd like it to not feel awful.

[Gina Mathewson]

I love that in the movie as well. That, like, all she sees of motherhood, she keeps seeing the same mother and child. And this child is just a brat. And, I mean, Hickey, she's like two or three, so of course he is. And just this exhausted mother, just constantly, everywhere she turns, this pair of this horrible mother and child. And close to the end, the mother stops and says, like, no one ever tells you how hard it is. And that's all she sees. And she keeps having these horrified moments. And then the moment she has the baby and she looks down at the baby, she just. The first thing she says to her is, like, we're gonna have so much fun.

[Caroline]

Yeah, it's so nice. Oh, my God, I love it so much. And like, that thing of. She just. She realizes that, like, she is able to take any amount of abuse or degradation or violation from this man, and she's gotten used to it, and she's kind of grown up with it, in a sense. But then when somebody else is on the line, it's like, oh, no, look at this precious thing. She can't ever suffer a moment's unhappiness at the hands of this man. I won't allow it. And the way that the having of this child. Which, yeah, having a child can mean that you feel like, you know, for many people, it makes it harder to leave a marriage. Of course. Of course it makes it harder to leave a marriage. You're more financially dependent on a man than ever. But the way that it gives her the strength to leave. I know that can be corny and simplistic, but I also love that idea of just, like, becoming a stronger person through motherhood rather than a weaker one.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. Yeah. It is also a thing. Like, it has the sense of. This is kind of hoagie. But I. James Monsoon posted a meme today or yesterday when she was like, my vibe for 2025 is done. I'm not angry, I'm not raging. I'm just done. And that's what it feels like. Here's this moment when she's like, no, I'm done. I'm done with this.

[Caroline]

I'm done. I'm done. Oh. And then she sort of, like, is wheeled out of the hospital because, like, yeah, she's been woken up in the middle of the night by her friends because Earl is refusing to pay the hospital bills. So they have to leave right now.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. Which is, again, dystopian and deranged.

[Caroline]

Dystopian and deranged. And so she's wheeled out. Dr. Pomatter stops her. And then she sort of says right away, like, we. We're ending this now. Yeah, let's just leave. Like, we could straight. She said, we could string this out for a couple of years and break a lot of hearts. But, you know, I think we should just end this now when there's no body count. And he's basically tries to protest and she's like, I'm leaving now. Like, that's. I'm. So what do you think you mentioned earlier on the function of, like, the function of this love story within this movie. Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

So I actually think in. In very, very. In theme for me, in sentimental garbage appearances.

[Caroline]

I.

[Gina Mathewson]

The love story is a mechanism for her growth in the same way as it is in Titanic. Like, he is not meant to be there forever. He is meant to be there to help her get to where she needs to be. And I think it would be a lesser movie if they ended up together. Like, I do end it with a little bit of hope that maybe his marriage does break down in, like, 10 years from now. They reconnect. And that would be sweet because I think, like, I love that relationship and I love the way it builds, and I would like them to have a romantic ending, but she gets a happy one without him. And I think that's. It's a more important ending that she gets a happy one without him. Because it's beautiful to see someone's happy ending being. Learning to be independent and finding joy and independence, especially in this world where we have crafted a narrative that romantic success is the only indicator of, you know, essentially being a valid person, which I think is a really toxic idea. I think the most important thing you can learn to be is alone. And that's the best way to make sure that when you aren't alone, it's good because you're not going to put up with someone unless they make. Unless they're better than your own company. And learning to love your own company is the only way to make sure that that is good and not just the best you can get, you know?

[Caroline]

No, I totally. Yeah. That's very profound, actually. Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Honestly, I think I was single my entire life until my late 20s and I think it's the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm so grateful it was mutual.

[Caroline]

It was you and you and everybody.

[Gina Mathewson]

Else between me and everybody we met. But I'm so. And I was not happy about it for a lot of that time. You know, everyone wants to fall in love. But I'm so glad that I learned to be an adult alone and I learned to travel alone and because I think it's important to know that you can do that and you can have a joyful life doing that.

[Caroline]

That's beautiful.

[Gina Mathewson]

Thanks.

[Caroline]

But I also think that I have seen a lot of movies lately that, you know, kind of indie rom coms or romantic dramas or whatever that has a kind of a female perspective and ends with I choose me.

[Gina Mathewson]

Right.

[Caroline]

Yeah, right.

[Gina Mathewson]

In a very eat prate love sort of way.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I mean, she doesn't choose her and eat prate love, she chooses.

[Gina Mathewson]

I've never read or seen it.

[Caroline]

Oh, well, yeah, no, she ends with the guy.

[Gina Mathewson]

Well, I'm happy.

[Caroline]

But if you're paying attention to the Liz Gilbert life story, you'll know that guy is not forever either. So that's a whole other thing. But no, what I mean is endings where it's a woman in flat alone, typing her book or some other kind of solo pursuit of walking off into the wilderness.

[Gina Mathewson]

The girl bossification of single life.

[Caroline]

Yes, a little bit. But it's like, yes, what you said is completely true of like, you need to learn how to be alone to really understand that it's your, like, yeah, exactly as you just said, like, that your own company should be the best. And anybody who adds onto that is like, you really know, they're great because they're even better than being alone. Like, that is an unbelievably like, zen and like, very brilliant way to like view the whole process of coupled women and romance. Like, and I really applaud you for it. But I also think the sort of. And Sally Rooney has said this very beautifully elsewhere, the idea that like, we can live alone, by which I mean, like independent from other people. People is like this like very solipsistic, freaky notion that's very 21st century and helps no one, right?

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, I think so.

[Caroline]

The whole point with this is that she ends with a community.

[Gina Mathewson]

She ends with a community. Yes, exactly. I think that the idea that the most important and relationship should be a romantic one is where things fall apart, I think.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Interdependence within a community is the way we function best. And modern society is kind of set up in denial of that. Like, it's a very anonymized world apart from romantic relationships.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

You kind of have to fight for community.

[Caroline]

What I like as well is that we see her at the end. She's like, she's been left. The guy. The old guy, has done her drawing.

[Gina Mathewson]

A beautiful. A beautiful charcoal drawing.

[Caroline]

A beautiful charcoal drawing. That is the exact right amount of good and the exact right amount of bad.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's so beautiful. It is like he worked so hard on it. And it looks like something that you did in art class when you were 12 years old.

[Caroline]

Yeah, no, it looks like somebody who was good at drawing when they were 12 and then stopped doing it until they retired. And sometimes they pick up charcoal every now and then.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yes, that's exactly what it is.

[Caroline]

It is such a good bit of.

[Gina Mathewson]

Mediocre sketch in the prop design department made that sketch. Like, it should win an Oscar every year.

[Caroline]

It takes so many professions to make a movie. Magic and prop design is often very underrated. Very underrated.

[Gina Mathewson]

Very important.

[Caroline]

Very important. It's so important that charcoal drawing is the amount of bad that it is. But he leaves her, like, a small fortune. I can't remember what exactly the check said. Maybe like 100 grand or something.

[Gina Mathewson]

You don't see it for very long. And it's spidery old man handwriting.

[Caroline]

Yeah. So look, I actually prefer that if you don't see it, it's like a sum of money, an extraordinary sum of money. And she's like, what the fuck? And, like, Becky is like, oh, what's that? And she's like, oh, he did me a drawing. And she holds up the drawing, and everyone has the exact appropriate response, which is so good. So good. And then we are led to believe that she sort of like, well, first of all, she wins the pie contest.

[Gina Mathewson]

She wins the pie contest.

[Caroline]

Well, I think.

[Gina Mathewson]

Is that. Oh, yeah. No, it's. She's got the baby in a carrier as she wins the pie contest.

[Caroline]

Yes. Which is great for, like, the $20,000 pie contest, which is crazy to me. And then she buys the Pie Diner and she calls it Lulu's Pies, after her daughter. And the.

[Gina Mathewson]

She.

[Caroline]

Obviously, the place has had a Little bit of a makeover. Like, it's had a paint job.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's got a big, big, bright new sign.

[Caroline]

Big, bright new sign. New uniforms that are very flattering and very pretty. But what I like about it is that the day to day of her life has changed very little.

[Gina Mathewson]

Very little. She just brings her daughter into work with her and makes pies with her friends and is happy.

[Caroline]

Yeah. All she needed was to not have that horrible husband. But now she doesn't have him. And, like, just. I mean, there's lots of bits about this movie that kind of end me, but, like, just her walking home with her daughter in their matching yellow outfits.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's really cute.

[Caroline]

It's really sweet.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's lovely.

[Caroline]

We've kind of. I didn't want it to get into the way of the discussing of the overall movie because I think this is a wonderful movie, regardless of who the creator is or what happened to them. But would you like to share with the class maybe a little bit of stuff about Adrian Shelley?

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. So this was Adrienne Shelley's third movie that she wrote and directed. There are. She's been an actress for ages. She'd also written a lot of plays. She did not get to see this movie released. She died before it was released. She was murdered in an apartment she was using as an office. This very smart writer behavior is to rent a separate apartment. So you have to go to work to do your writing, if you can afford it.

[Caroline]

I mean, she must have been so new into affording it.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

It must have felt like such a luxury.

[Gina Mathewson]

It must have.

[Caroline]

She must have been like, wow, I can't believe I really have the money to do this now.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. You know, so she'd got herself a little apartment to work in, and there was construction going on in the building. And one of the construction workers followed her into her apartment and murdered her and staged it to look like a suicide. And it was initially ruled a suicide. I think that her husband took it.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

That she wouldn't have killed herself. And he made the police come back and look again. And they found a footprint on the bench beside the shower from where the guy had stood to hang up her body. And it's just an awful chance encounter with a stranger, which is the rarest kind of murder. And it's just a tragic loss, like, obviously for her husband and her daughter, who was 2.

[Caroline]

And who is the little girl who you see in this movie.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. At the end. Yeah, the daughter at the end of the movie is Adrienne Shelley's daughter. She looks so much like her mum. It's tragic, but, yeah, it is. It is heartbreaking to think that aside from the personal tragedy of that, the art that we have lost, because this was her first film to cut through to the mainstream, to have, like, a wide international release. And she's so good. Like, so many of my notes were just writing down lines because she's such a good writer. Like, there's a bit where it's just. I drive a very nice compact car.

[Caroline]

I drive a very nice. I make $30,000 a year. And I just love my mother.

[Gina Mathewson]

I think she was a wonderful, wonderful talent. And I honestly, I will never be. I will never not be heartbroken that we don't get more of her work. I think she must have had so much more to give. Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's that thing of being a rarity within a rarity.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Like, to have a woman of her age just kind of. Not a Nepo baby, just like, kind of came from nowhere and was good to make a movie, to write and direct a movie and act in it and for it to be so different to everything else that was going on at that time in movie making. To get this. It's so hard to get anything made. To get this, like, wonderful cast who are just the right amount of famous for it to get a release, but not so famous that any one role overshadows the other. For it to look so beautiful, for it to capture so many things about, like, contemporary women's lives, while also, like, having this sort of spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down, that doesn't make the medicine any less potent.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And for that unbelievable artistic rarity to occur and for the even rarer thing to happen to you, which is that you are, like, murdered by a stranger who breaks into your. Where you are, like. It's just. It's flabbergastingly unlucky. You know, it's.

[Gina Mathewson]

It's a really cruel occurrence to have happened. Yeah, it's devastating. And, yeah, she was such a rare. Such a rare talent and. And. And weird.

[Caroline]

Yeah, weird, weird.

[Gina Mathewson]

And she made this movie that, in anyone else's hands, would have either been gratuitous with violence or it would have been, like, tweets and kitschy and it's none of those things. It's just, like this perfectly observed little character piece.

[Caroline]

And it's like. And what I love is that it's not even, like, an indie cult hit. Like. No, there's a Broadway musical based on this now, which neither you nor I have seen.

[Gina Mathewson]

No, no. I'm a little bit shady about the musical because I feel like I love this film for such a long time, and then everyone else started talking about it.

[Caroline]

I know. I feel that way, too. Yeah. I feel that way, too.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah. But, yeah, I love. I love this movie. I love Adrian Shelley. I think she was a genius. I am consistently devastated by her loss.

[Caroline]

Me, too.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And, like, I. It is so straight. It's weird because, like, it's such a specific and strange story that. What happened to her. And yet. And every time I turn on this movie and I think I'm probably. I think I'm probably about the age she was when she died.

[Gina Mathewson]

Maybe she was 40.

[Caroline]

Really? She was 40? Okay, so we're her age.

[Gina Mathewson]

Ish.

[Caroline]

You know?

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, we're there.

[Caroline]

And, like, I don't know. I've been watching this movie since I was a teenager, and, like, the more I watch it and the more I can recognize just the universality of it and. And I forget about it, what happened to her so quickly. And I just watch it and, like, for a piece of work to be that powerful, to overshadow a story so terrible.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

And it's like, oh, I'm in heaven again. I'm in heaven with my friends. I love these people. It's a real testament to how powerful.

[Gina Mathewson]

It is as a piece of work. Yeah. It breaks my heart that she didn't get to see it released.

[Caroline]

Yeah. I love that her daughter has this, though.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah.

[Caroline]

Her daughter's a private individual. I have no idea what she's doing, but, like, it's such a scarring, horrible thing to lose your mother at literally any age. Like, I think if I lost my mother now, it would ruin my life. But, like, to. To go around with that mark on you that, like, your mother died in this way, but to be able to watch this movie and know that she loved you so much. Yeah, it's kind of like, you know that cliche in movies where an orphan child picks up a photograph of their mom looking beautiful, and then the mom's, like, sister or friend taps them on the shoulder and says, your mother was beautiful and she loved you so much. It's like the movie of that. It really is.

[Gina Mathewson]

But, yeah, to have got to be in it. To have got to be in your mum's last movie.

[Caroline]

Yeah.

[Gina Mathewson]

Even though you weren't old enough to understand what. What it was and what. What was happening.

[Caroline]

I just think it must be a really nice thing.

[Gina Mathewson]

I think it's.

[Caroline]

I don't want to overstate how nice it is because nothing's as nice as having a mom. But like, but like, I. I hope. I hope it's of some comfort.

[Gina Mathewson]

Yeah, me too.

[Caroline]

Is there any lighter note you want to end the movie on? It's very funny, funny movie. Love.

[Gina Mathewson]

I just have. I just have another. Just another great line that I wrote down. Once you're done wiping away all your indiscretions.

[Caroline]

You'Re done wiping away all your indiscretion.

[Gina Mathewson]

Oh, it just.

[Caroline]

Oh. I hope Southern people are okay with the fact that their voices are magical. And I love them. I love them.

[Gina Mathewson]

Ah, yeah, I love them too.

[Caroline]

Janina, do you want to plug anything you've been working on?

[Gina Mathewson]

I have a book coming out in paperback this month. Actually, my book the Horses, which came out in hardback in August, is out and paid back at the end of this month. Please buy it. I need to eat somehow.

[Caroline]

Oh, no.

[Gina Mathewson]

I also do a podcast called History is Sexy. Yes, we talk about history with Dr. Eva Southern, who is much smarter than me. Our next episode is on the Marquis de Sade, so that's fun.

[Caroline]

Yeah. And also Gina's done two fabulous episodes of this podcast before. One on Jagged Little Pill and the other is on titanic. Basically the two sides of 90s womanhood. Really, both sides of that dark coin.

[Gina Mathewson]

That's exactly what it was to be a woman in the 90s Titanic and allows more set. What a beautiful period.

[Caroline]

All right guys, see you next week.

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