← Sentimental Garbage
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- [00:00]
Jensen McRae
To make switching to the new Boost Mobile risk free, we're offering a 30 day money back guarantee.
- [00:05]
Caroline
So why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile?
- [00:07]
Jensen McRae
Because you have nothing to lose. Boost Mobile is offering a 30 day money back guarantee.
- [00:11]
Caroline
No, I asked why wouldn't you switch from Verizon or T Mobile?
- [00:15]
Anita
Wouldn't.
- [00:16]
Jensen McRae
Because you love wasting money as a way to punish yourself because your mother never showed you enough love as a child.
- [00:22]
Anita
Whoa, easy there. Yeah.
- [00:23]
Jensen McRae
Applies to online activations. Requires port in and auto pay. Customers activating in stores may be charged non refundable activation fees.
- [00:39]
Anita
Hello and welcome to Sentimental Garbage, the podcast where we communicate largely via finger clicks. My name is Caroline and my grandpa is a commie. And my grandma pushes tea. And joining me is the girl who always feels pretty. It's Jensen McRae.
- [00:53]
Jensen McRae
Thank you for that introduction.
- [00:55]
Anita
Thank you so much for coming on and for. This is very embarrassing for a pop culture podcaster introducing me to this film.
- [01:06]
Jensen McRae
Well, I'm happy to be anyone's introduction to it. It was like, it dominated my childhood in a way that I look back and I don't really understand why.
- [01:14]
Anita
Yeah, I mean, we're about to get to the bottom of why. So when I. We were communicated over DM on Instagram, and I'm just. I just think you're so fabulously talented and I love your music. And when you wanted to come on the show, I was so happy to have you and. And then you came with west side Story immediately. Like, it was an immediate text back and I. And I. Yeah, I would love to know why exactly.
- [01:37]
Jensen McRae
I mean, I know that when I was a kid, like, your parents are always showing you movies that they loved when they were younger. Like, I remember my mom showed me Dirty Dancing. That was like her favorite movie. And I just remember finding it, like, intolerably long. I wish I knew, like, the runtime of that film, because I'm sure it's a normal length of a movie, but as a child, I felt it was so long. Cause it didn't really capture my interest. I think I was too young to, like, care about being in love with Patrick Swayze. And she must have shown me one side story. And for some reason I was like, this is a perfect film. And now I'm gonna. I literally watched it every single day for, like, I think all of fourth grade. And like, we went on a family trip to Jamaica. And this was in the mid-2000s, when you had to have a DVD player. Like, there weren't like, iPads or any. Like, you didn't. There was no other way to watch a movie on a plane. So we all brought big DVD players. And that makes me feel so old. And I think the only DVD I brought on that trip was the west side Story movie. And I watched it. It, like, whenever there was downtime. Like, that was my entertainment was watching that movie.
- [02:31]
Anita
That's so gorgeous. And like, what if you could. I mean, I'm sure because you've had this, like, lifelong relationship with this thing. I'm sure it's changed over time. Like, can you. Like, I can see why a young. Like a young kid would see it and also hear songs like I Feel Pretty or America. And like, there's a sort of a. There's a playground fun to it. And the color and the dress and all that was that, like, is. Is what got you the same thing as what kept you?
- [03:04]
Jensen McRae
I think so. I mean, I think everything that you just said is spot on. Like, I did musical theater as a child and now, like, I'm not quite as into it. Like, I'm more select. Like, I don't just love every musical. Like, there's a few musicals that I think are great. West side Story, obviously, being chief among them. And then other ones, I'm like, I can't. I don't wanna sit through that. And so it has to be very particular. And I think with west side Story, it's the music I think is so good. Like, America was one that, like, I would off sometimes. I wouldn't watch the whole movie. When I would watch it, I would fast forward and, like, just watch Americ. Like, that was my favorite, I think. And I was obsessed with Anita's dress. Like, I love the dress that she wears in that song. And I think another big part of it was like, I mean, I'm so. I'm biracial. My mom is white, my dad is black. And growing up in the 2000s, like, there was just starting to be a little bit of representation, like, in the mainstream media for that. And, like, one thing my mom did when I was a kid is she would cut out pictures of biracial celebrities from magazines and, like, put them in a folder for me and be like, folder. Look, look, look at all these people who are like you. And it was like my parents desperately trying to show me, like, myself being mirrored back to me. And the thing that I've found with a lot of non white kids is, like, you kind of take it where you can get it. And so even if there's someone who's not your ethnicity. If they're not white, you just latch on as that and you claim it as your own. And so I think, like, I mean, a lot of the people in that movie are straight up wearing brown face, and they're also like, 35 blank 6. But Rita Moreno is Puerto Rican. And I think that I probably gravitated towards Rita Moreno as, like, an icon of representation. Even though I'm not Puerto Rican, I was like, yes, I'll take it. And so I think, like, a story about, like, a quote unquote interracial relationship, even though obviously Natalie Wood is also just white, was something that resonated with me and, like, something that I knew would be of interest to me down the line.
- [04:57]
Anita
It's like, first of all, Rita Marino is obviously the best character in the film.
- [05:03]
Jensen McRae
She's every. I mean, she. Did she win an Oscar for it? I think she might have won an Oscar for it. I mean, she's sensational. They also made her do Brown Face because she wasn't, like, dark enough for their, like, which is. There's a lot wrong with this movie, but I don't care. Like, it was a. It was representative of a time. But, yeah, Rita Moreno is the highlight for me, of course.
- [05:22]
Anita
And it was. It's so funny because, as you said, I think you hit on something very true a minute ago when you said that, like, your mom showed you Dirty Dancing. And it was. It just felt long. And it made me think while I was watching this, I was like, well, I grew up in a house that, like, everyone loved musicals and classic, you know, movie musicals. Why didn't I grow up with west side Story? And then it made me think that unless your family are, like, capital S Show people, actually, any one household can only probably metabolize about one or two musicals at a time because they're all incredibly long. So we were a Sound of Music in Les Miserables household. And that was. That was the number of musicals we could really ingest. And so just get a lot.
- [06:06]
Jensen McRae
I think about that a lot with, like, regards to. With music as well. Because, like, obviously, as a musician, like, I'm always getting asked, like, what did you grow up listening to? And, like, who were your influences and stuff? And I'll say, you know, my biggest. My usual people. It's like Carole King, Stevie Wonder, James Taylor, Alicia Keys. Those are my big four. And I'll encounter people who grew up with the Beatles, for example, and the Rolling Stones. And I didn't. I didn't know their music until I Went to college, really, because I went to music school and I had to study it. And to your point, there's only so much classic music that you can take as a family, but especially as a child, there's only so much you can retain. And you're really beholden to whatever your parents taste is. So like, in your case, your parents are like, these are the best musicals that you're gonna know. The Sound of Music in Les Mis. And it's like to other people, it's like how there's such a big gap in your education. It's like it's impossible to cover all of pop culture in the first, like 10 years of your life. You're gonna miss a lot.
- [06:58]
Anita
You have hit the subject that I am absolutely obsessed with, which is the idea that like, you know, for our generations, the pre digital, every pre digital media generation, sort of like post post vinyl pre digital, kind of that entire analog generation of owning culture in your house, but only a finite amount of it. And how like every single person, their personality is made up of like the 3 VHS and the 10 DVDs and whatever. And so like, if what my entire character was just boiled down to three things, it would probably be Billy Joel, the Muppets, Christmas Carol, and like Little Women on vhs, you know, like, and that's kind of like. Like if I just was like, melted down, it would just be three things, you know.
- [07:42]
Jensen McRae
Oh, my gosh.
- [07:43]
Anita
And everybody has the same. And like, everybody is like, it's like a very specific thumbprint that everyone has that's incredibly specific to them just based on this, like, flotsam and jetsam of whatever the fuck was in their house, you know?
- [07:56]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, I love that as an intellectual exercise, like, to ask people, like, what are the. What are the weird. What are the VHS tapes that like, make you who you are? I mean, I know for me, one of them would definitely be the Looney Tunes. I mean, specifically the Looney Tunes cartoon Duck a Muck. But like, I don't remember what the name of that VHS tape was, but like, a lot of Looney Tunes cartoons were critical to my development. And I guess west side Story is another one of them. But I want to know now. I want to know. Everybody's. Oh, and Brandy Cinderella, that's the other one. I guess I could have submitted that for consideration as well.
- [08:28]
Anita
Oh, yes, we've actually done Brandy Cinderella.
- [08:30]
Jensen McRae
Of course. I'm not surprised. It's an iconic film. I broke my DVD and my VHS tape of both of those. I had it on VHS and dvd. And they both broke from overuse.
- [08:39]
Anita
It's so good. I think it's like the highest budget straight to VHS movie ever. It's some kind of, like, crazy record. But back to west side Story, of course. So, again, my first time, like, ever seeing this thing. And I really want to work through it chronologically, but there was something that, like, I enjoyed it so much. Just like. And that really. I watched a little documentary this afternoon about it where. You know those documentaries where it's just, like, loads of talking heads of famous people saying how it. How good it is. And there was something that, like, weirdly, Baryshnikov said when he was being interviewed about it. Baryshnikov, or as he's known listeners to this podcast, the Russian from Sex and the City. And he said, you know, I grew up on propaganda cartoons of America of, like, big fat Americans with, like, money falling out of their pockets, like, eating. And, like, I was raised to think of America as this kind of artless space place. And then he was like, well, and I watched this movie, and it was such a quintessentially American piece of art. Like, it's Coca Cola and it's modern jazz and it's Cuban rhythms, and it's all these things and it's these colors and it's this, like, it really, more than any one scene, the whole piece of it sent a fucking shiver down my spine. Just that it is. So, yes, it's a movie musical, and it's like, big love and yearning and stuff, but just the artistry at work in this thing from the opening frame is unbelievable. When you're getting these, like, aerial shots of. Of New York and I. And you. And get. You get these clicks and everything, which obviously is an iconic part of the musical. And you're in. I was instantly, like, shut out of my thing of like, oh, this is like a classic movie musical that I'm watching that will take place on a series of sound stages. And I was immediately dunked into this thing of, like, you are watching a seminal piece of American art. I don't have that many Americans on the podcast. Tell me your response to this as an American piece of art, particularly in the moment that it is to be American right now.
- [10:49]
Jensen McRae
I mean, to me, it feels like, obviously it's both the best and worst of what it is to be American. Cause the whole film is about racial tension. And that's something that. I mean, I think what's interesting is obviously my primary exposure to it was as a child and I was a child of the 2000s. I was a child initially, like, I guess of the Bush administration, but then mostly of the two Obama administrations, at least in my conscious memory. And to me, watching a film about racial tension felt very antiquated. Like, it felt very like old timey. Cause I was like, well, we have a black president now. We fix that. And like, watching that, watching it now, like, I have watched it obviously since and like, it feels so much more poignant. Cause it feels. It doesn't feel as antiquated anymore. It does feel like right now, like, to be an American is to coexist with, like, the trauma and the pain of the divisiveness that exists. And also to still be making art and still be falling in love. Like, I don't want to, like, compare this time period to any other time period because I do believe that, like, my ancestors made so much more with so much less. But this is like, not a good time to be American at all. Like, it's a very, very difficult time to be an American, especially if you're. Specifically, if you're not a straight, cisgender white man. It's a very bad time to be an American. And there's still happy moments. And I think that that's what this movie feels like to me is all of the amazing things that happen when the world is hostile to you and all of the beauty that you can find in the world when it is hostile to you. And especially with I Feel Pretty. They have to work in that dress shop just to barely make ends meet. They're barely surviving. They're scraping by in that really, really tiny apartment in New York. And yet Maria has fallen in love with Tony and she's dancing around and pretending to be a bride. And like, that to me is like, representative of, like, what girlhood is. It's like, no matter how horrible the world is being to you, like, you're still probably going to find a way to, like, play dress up with your friends. And like, I think that, like, the color, I mean, people talk about this a lot how, like, we don't do Technicolor anymore. And I don't know if west side Story technically is Technicolor, but regardless, the coloring in the film is like its own character. And, like, just how bright it is and how evocative it is and how, like, immersive it is. Like, you really feel like you're. It's so bright and it's so purposeful that you really feel like you're there. And so I feel like it really does remind me of, like, what it means to force yourself to find joy and beauty and love in a place that it would be really easy not to like, obviously, Bernardo was the voice of, like, everything sucks here. Why are you happy? Like, why should we even be here? And Anita is the voice of, like, I don't care how much it sucks. I'd rather have it suck here than have to deal with it sucking somewhere else.
- [13:35]
Anita
I love that. It's so crazy to me when I. I mean, generally we would do some kind of a plot summary, but I feel like if you don't, like, even I, who had never seen west side Story, knew the plot of west side Story before seeing it. That it's a Romeo and Juliet story, you know, about. About these two gangs in lower Manhattan and that. But, like, obviously I'm so aware of America as a song. Or it's like. Is like, what's the full title of the song? Is it.
- [14:03]
Jensen McRae
Is it called I Want to be in America?
- [14:05]
Anita
I Want to be. Yeah.
- [14:06]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, maybe. I don't know.
- [14:08]
Anita
Well, we all know what I'm talking about because it's like, such, like, a breakout. If you know one song from this musical, you'll probably know that. And there's something kind of. I've always kind of done it in my head as, like, almost a joke song because it's so loud and so big and so just like, repetitive that, like, it just goes around in your head. And I had never listened to the lyrics and I'd never understood the context for its place in the story, but it completely, like, transfixed me when it was on. It's quite early in the movie, so it's like we have this whole setup of Sharks vs Jets, and the Sharks are made up of the Puerto Rican population, and the jets are the kind of like, mixed second generation immigrant whites, sort of a diverse background, but white. And they have this sort of. You know, it plays like the opening of Romeo and Juliet where, like, you don't meet Romeo and Juliet right away. You meet just like, some guys just.
- [15:03]
Jensen McRae
Like, having a fight kind of thing.
- [15:08]
Anita
Just some guys having a fight. And then, you know, we're introduced to sort of Tony. And, like, Tony's not a Jet anymore, but when you're a Jet, you're a Jet for life. And then we get Maria, and we find out that Maria has kind of just come to the country. Her parents are there as well, her brother's there, and her brother's, like, deeply protective over her and has ideas of who she's gonna marry. And what she's gonna do. And it's that, like, classic older brother dynamic of, like, I know how terrible men are. Cause I am terrible kind of thing. So I will protect you from men like me. And then we, you know, he kind of, like, chastises Maria and, like, puts her in her place. And then, like, immediately goes up to the roof to, like, just kind of, like, mack on his girl.
- [15:54]
Jensen McRae
Yeah.
- [15:55]
Anita
And there's this big, hilarious dance fight between Anita and her friends and the women and, like, all the men. And the kind of. The fight is really about whether, as you said, whether or not it's good to be in America. And the women are just so filled with life and energy, and the men are so cynical. And, you know, I'm not American, but I am an immigrant in the sense that, like, I live in a country I wasn't born in. And it really took me into this, like, very specific thing you don't see elsewhere, which is the way in which women and men relate to the immigrant experience. First of all, the way in which, like, women often went away from their nuclear families, are able to experience more freedom. And, like, these women specifically are, like, benefiting from, like, the cultural revolution happening in America at that time and all that. And men are romanticized their lives back home more in part because they're targeted as criminals more in the place where they've ended up. You know, like, women are targeted as labor and men are targeted as criminals. And so it's like, oh, of course they have these different perspectives on what it's like to be in America.
- [17:09]
Jensen McRae
You know, I hadn't considered that. And I think it's so interesting to think about, like, how. Yeah, when women. The women in this story, like, have left, even though obviously the culture of the United States is not particularly progressive at this point. Like, they've left a More a culture that's more rooted in machismo. And they've come to a place where, in theory, there's starting to be a little bit of a shift towards equality. I think women are still a ways off from being able to have credit cards in this timeline. But, like, they're able to work, they're able to have their own income, they're able to potentially live on their own. Whereas the men, even if they're coming to America, in theory, for more opportunity, they have more cultural. They would have more cultural currency in their hometown because they would have more social control over the women. And in the US it's like, it seems, at least in this environment, it's harder for them to exert social control over the women. And also in their hometown, they're considered the alphas of their society, whereas here, they're considered subservient and deferent to white men. And I hadn't considered that informing it. I mean, I guess, obviously, again. Cause I watched it as a child. But it's interesting to think about that framing now. Like, the women, they have nothing to lose, really, coming to America, because at home. Yeah, they're poor in both places. They're existing at the whims of men in both places. But in America, there's marginally more opportunity for them to carve out their own independent existence.
- [18:27]
Anita
Yeah. It's like, wherever I am, I'm still dealing with being a woman anyway.
- [18:31]
Jensen McRae
Yeah. Yeah. Whereas for men, it's like, wait, when I was home, like, I was the top dog. I was the guy. And now suddenly I'm like, second fiddle to these random white guys. Like, that sucks.
- [18:40]
Anita
That sucks. And I feel for everyone.
- [18:43]
Jensen McRae
Yeah. Yeah.
- [18:44]
Anita
And crucially, I like everyone. They're all my friends. Yeah.
- [18:49]
Jensen McRae
They're all my best friends in 1960s Manhattan.
- [18:54]
Anita
I just loved it, man. Like, I'm really afraid that, like, I know that people are gonna be listening and be like, want me to have a more informed take. But I just, like, sat down and watched this movie this afternoon and, like, didn't get up and just, like, ordered Deliveroo to my couch so I could just not interrupt it.
- [19:10]
Jensen McRae
It's so good. I mean, America's great. Maria's probably my other. Well, okay. Maria's one of my favorite songs. And then A Boy like that. I think those are the three songs that, like, if I didn't have time for a full rewatch, it was like, I'm gonna watch America. I'm gonna watch Maria. I'm gonna watch a boy like that. Those three are getting hit for sure.
- [19:24]
Anita
Tell me about what Maria does to you emotionally.
- [19:27]
Jensen McRae
Well, the melody is crazy. Like, it was actually a song that I ended up studying a little bit in music theory classes when I got to college, because in my. I tried to take classical theory, which was a nightmare, but then I had to take pop theory, and we had these exams where we had to be able to identify intervals. So, like, the. Like, there's so the. I don't know how much you know about, like, music theory, but, like, the distance between, like, the difference between, like, C and D, like, do and re, that's called the second. That's, like, the closest interval you can have. And then the distance between do and Mi is a third, between do and FA is a fourth, between do and sol is a fifth. And the interval between. For the notes in Maria, I'm trying to remember. I think it's like a. It's like a flat six or something. It's a weird interval that, like, when you learning about, like, all the different intervals in school, like, they would give you an example of, like, a pop culture sound to, like, make you think of it. Like, Here Comes the Bride is like one interval and whatever, so you can remember what sounds like. And there was this interval which I feel like is like a. Either a sixth or maybe some kind of an accidental around it. It's like the Maria, like, that was the only example they gave. Because, like, that's the one that everyone knows. Like, oh, it's a tritone. That's what it is. It's like. It's like a very harsh interval. I think some people call it, like the devil's interval. But it softens up because it goes Maria. It, like, slides up to where it wants to resolve, but it always lands on that sharp, uncomfortable note first. And that is just such. On a music theory level, that feels great. It exemplifies how it feels to be falling in love. Cause it's very uneasy, it's scary, it's uncomfortable, it's alarming. And you're like, this feels like I have a stomachache and my heart is racing and I don't feel good. But it does. The feeling bad, feels good. And it's just a genius interval choice in order to. To show that on a musical level. And then obviously the rest of it is also really, really beautiful. And, like, it makes you want to be named Maria. Listening to that song, you're like, damn, I wish my name was Maria. Cause I want some guy to sing my name like that that many times. It's also such an impossible song for men to sing. Like, it was like a compilation of a bunch of different Broadway Tonys singing Maria. And it's just like, when you get to Broadway, man, like, those guys can sing Maria. Like, I saw. I've seen. I was so obsessed with the musical as a child that, like, when I was. For my ninth birthday, I think my mom took me to see a product at a local community college. Cause that was the only place she could find tickets. I was like, that was the only place putting it on. And I thought I was at Brown.
- [21:55]
Anita
Your mom sounds like a real one. She sounds great with her folders and her tickets.
- [21:59]
Jensen McRae
She is the best. She's like, you Will want for nothing. And so we went to go see it, and I think it was probably bad, but I didn't know that. Cause I was a kid, and I was like, this is incredible. And then I ended up seeing it on Broadway much later. And that was obviously amazing. And I saw it. I think I went to go see it at my college, and I think I left in the middle, If I'm being totally honest, it wasn't really giving. But when you watch a compilation of Broadway Tonys singing it, you're like, wow, this is a demanding song. And if you really nail it, it's. I mean, you're just transfixed. You're like, I can't take my eyes off of this performance. So many of the songs in that show are really hard to sing, though, which is. I mean, as a person who's like, I used to do musical theater. I'm a singer now. I would potentially go back to musical theater if the opportunity presented itself. It's kind of terrifying to think about singing a song from a show like that, because all those songs are really hard.
- [22:50]
Anita
Thank you so much for explaining to me the stuff about tritones and what makes Maria that melody so special and so hard to sing. Because you're so right in what you just said about the slight nausea of it. It's, like, heavenly, but it's also sicky kind of thing. And that sort of thing of, like, narratively, it feels like the. The doom is kind of, like, already baked into the elation, you know?
- [23:20]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, yeah.
- [23:21]
Anita
When I hadn't even thought of. Yeah, yeah.
- [23:25]
Jensen McRae
It's a really. It's a really, really special choice. And, like, I haven't sat with enough musicals in the way that I've sat with this to know, like, if there's similarly purposeful choices in other shows. But I just know that, like, Maria is, like. Even though America's probably my favorite song and the one that I've gone back to the most, Maria is the most emblematic of the show. Maria, I feel like, is the show like that. The juxtaposition of the doom and the dread and the love and the light and just the youthfulness of it. Cause the show, practically, it couldn't be about people who are 40. It just wouldn't work. Even though the actors are 40. It has to be about young people, because they have to be able. I mean, I'm 27, and I even feel now that there are certain things I'm never gonna feel again. I think I've, like, there's certain types of feelings That I think are for youth. And they're not even that distant in my past. But I think it's like once you feel them the first time, it's like, it's just never gonna feel like that again. And I look at Maria and Tony and it's like, if Tony had lived. Spoiler alert. Sorry, guys. If Tony had lived. And in the case of Maria, she's never gonna feel that way again. She'll fall after the credits roll. Like she'll fall in love again in her life. It's never gonna feel like it felt with Tony again. It can't. Cause it's impossible. And so west side Story, in addition to being about love and being about death and being about racial division in 1960s America, is about the feelings about youth, about the things you can only feel when you're however old they're supposed to be, like 17, but, you know, your late teens, early 20s, you get like one shot at it. I really firmly believe that. And I think even if you fall in love again and it's beautiful and it's mystical and it's amazing, it never quite feels like that.
- [25:11]
Anita
Yeah, it's a little bit like chickenpox, where like, you want to hope you get it young because the older you are when it happens for the first time, the likelier it is to be deadly.
- [25:24]
Jensen McRae
Like, I had mine when I was 24.
- [25:27]
Anita
Oh, shit. And it was like, you got to the hospital.
- [25:31]
Jensen McRae
I almost went to the hospital. I truly almost went to the hospital. And so, like, yeah, I think if. Yeah, it truly is. You're lucky if you experience it, you know, when you are 17, because then you can get. You're young and you're springy and you can bounce back faster, I think.
- [25:47]
Anita
Yeah. Fuck. Wow, you're so like. The thing is that one of the structural flaws of, like, Romeo and Juliet is the fact that. And like, Baz Luhrmann has had his way with it, and this obviously has a take on it, is that, you know, it famously lives and dies in a three day time frame. And so every person who takes up the mantle of trying to, like, tell the story of Romeo and Juliet, and it's such an elastic myth, you know, we can pour anything into it. We can pour any kind of conflict into it or love story into it, and it will make sense. And that's why it survives more than any other play. But the thing that everyone has to work their way around is that these are kids who risk it all for an instant connection. You know, they risk their families and their Lives and everything, you know, their honor. And the way Baz Luhrmann represents that is that beautiful moment with the fish tank. But the way that west side Story represents that, I actually prefer even more. It's like that beautiful thing where we have the dance scene, which is gorgeous and, like, you never want it to end. Like, you more. More dance battles, more sexy looks, go on forever. I could. I don't got anywhere to be. Like, do it always. But then, you know, Maria and Tony see each other and the world sort of blurs and stops. And they. In a way that I am only now just realizing, was referenced in the 2005 Pride and Prejudice, direct by Joe Wright. If you're familiar with that scene where Darcy and Lizzie are dancing and the rest of the room kind of disappears and everything slows down. It's so masterfully done, but it's clearly referencing west side Story. And they kind of draw towards each other, and it's like the colors don't necessarily invert, but everything gets darker and you can see the outlines of other dancers. And they speak in this to each other. And it's kind of dialogue, but it's kind of almost dream speak. It's like the way you talk in a dream. Like they're kind of talking to each other, but they're kind of talking to themselves. And Maria says something like. He kind of half accuses her of joking with him, and then she says that, I don't know how to make jokes like that yet. And there was something about that line that, like, really upset me.
- [28:17]
Jensen McRae
Well, it just reminds you of just how young they are. And I don't know what the age difference is supposed to be in west side Story. Obviously, in the original, Romeo and Juliet isn't Romeo's 19 and Juliet's 13.
- [28:28]
Anita
If I'm something, remembering correctly, something disquieting like that.
- [28:31]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, yeah. And also isn't. I know that Shakespeare wrote an iambic pentameter, but isn't it that, like, in the scene when Romeo and Juliet encounter each other, it's like they're perfect IMs or something? There's something, like, distinctive about their first meeting. It's been a long time since I read that book.
- [28:46]
Anita
Since I read that book, I'm a failure.
- [28:48]
Jensen McRae
But there's something about when they meet that, like, the meter changes slightly or it becomes more perfect in some way, or they're completing each other's sentences or something. There's something about their meeting that's faded in their dialogue. And so I'm not surprised that it's then that it's echoed in west side Story. But yeah, with her saying, I don't know how to joke like that yet is. Again, watching it as a kid, I'm like, I don't know what any of these people are talking about. Those grownups are crazy. But like, now, like, watching it as an adult, you're like, oh, my heart hurts. And like, all the life that this girl hasn't lived.
- [29:20]
Anita
Yeah, like, it's. I just again, to like, go back to the kind of the well wornness of the Romeo and Juliet stuff. It's like they. If they wanted to be lazy, they could have been lazy because we know all of this story already. But instead they were like, no, every single square inch of this is going to tell the story as best as we possibly can in the fullest we possibly can. From the colors to the sets to the. The way in which, like, this kind of. I mean, I. You. You obviously have studied musical theater, so you will know much more than me, but the way this kind of, kind of made a new frontier for dance as a storytelling methodology, I love.
- [30:04]
Jensen McRae
I mean, the dancing in this movie is. Is so great. And again, another thing that I would be terrified to do if I ever tried to do musical theater again, I cannot dance at all. But yeah, the dancing. The dance scene, I. Similarly, every time I watch it, I'm like, this should just be the whole movie.
- [30:20]
Anita
Just be 90 minutes of this.
- [30:23]
Jensen McRae
Also unrelated, but I just think about Maria's dress in the dance scene. I wanted a dress like that so badly. I mean, I think it's in a museum somewhere. I think the dress Natalie Wood wore is in a museum somewhere. It's. It's just everything.
- [30:37]
Anita
Oh, that whole. That made me really upset, too. I'm on period at the moment, so everything's making me upset.
- [30:43]
Jensen McRae
Oh, my God. I'm fine.
- [30:48]
Anita
I'm rocking a hefty day two over here.
- [30:51]
Jensen McRae
I am also on day two.
- [30:54]
Anita
Oh, twins. That's nice. That's beautiful.
- [30:57]
Jensen McRae
That was fate. We had to record today.
- [30:59]
Anita
We had to. We had to. The whole thing when she's arguing about, like, cutting the dress or dyeing it red and then she puts it on and she just loves it. And like, again, it's just. Yes. Should they have gotten a Puerto Rican actress? For sure.
- [31:13]
Jensen McRae
But again, it's like, these are things that, like, obviously there are people in the 1960s who got it right. Like, there are people who, in the olden times who were ahead of their time that knew what was right and what was wrong. That weren't racist. Whatever. Most of the people that were making movies during that time were not woke. Okay? They didn't have woke yet. And like when I, if they, you know, when they made, I mean they did remake west side Story recently, which we don't even have to, we don't have to discuss that. We don't, we don't have to get into that because that's not what, that's not what matters today. But like, you know, if they were to make that exact movie now, you know, they're not going to make the same mistakes. They're not going to put white people in brown face. But at the time that was just the situation. And as a person of color, there are things that I choose to enjoy even though they offend my sensibilities. And I think that's what's funny about whenever people get mad, whenever right leaning people get mad about the woke left and the woke movement and stuff. It's like the truth is I can still enjoy a lot of old stuff that's kind of racist. I just read the Razor's Edge, which I really liked and I didn't know that the N word was in that book a couple of times. But I wasn't like, I don't like this book now because it has the N word. I was like, this is a great book. And people said the N word back then. Big whoop. I think if you make something awesome and you can just kind of get over the fact that there are racial insensitivities and you can get over the fact that there are gender insensitivities, in my opinion, you can enjoy things from the past even if they're not up to present day standards. And I think that west side Story is a perfect example of like, yeah, it wouldn't pass a sniff test now that version of the movie. But like it was a, it's a. Everyone in it is so talented. Everyone who made it is so talented. And I think it's worth keeping it around. Like I think it should stay in the canon. Like it's, it's just great.
- [33:04]
Anita
Oh, this is, this is here to stay forever. But like it's also. I, I'm I'm so. I completely subscribe to your line of thought. 100. It's something I've been thinking about a lot lately where the kind of the plethora of content that we have and the impossibility to choose between all of it of what books we're gonna read and like what. And, and the more I think of, like, people weeding things out based on sensibilities. I'm sort of. I'm beginning to, like, be like, oh, are you just weeding it out because you want an excuse to. You're just trying to winnow down your pool of things that you are gonna see. It's like, you can just say, I don't want to read that. Like, I don't need a moral reason, because why I should. Do you know what I mean?
- [33:44]
Jensen McRae
And I totally get, like. I mean, there's certain things, like, if you're triggered by something, like, that's. That's obviously a totally separate issue. Like, if you're personally. Like, if you're not. Like, I'm not. If you're. If you say, like, I'm not gonna watch this thing that has a graphic scene of sexual assault in it. Cause that triggers me, of course, more power to you. Like, that is a very valid reason to not read something or to not watch something. But to say, like, on principle, like, I won't. I don't want to consume anything that has racist content in it. It's like, I don't. I mean, I don't personally know anyone. I think that would do that. I mean, it's very different if, like, oh, I'm not gonna read this. Cause the author says the N word all the time. It's, like, different. But if it's like, if it's something. If the art itself is like, oh, yeah. Like, they didn't cast a person of the red ethnicity in this role. Or like, oh, yeah, there's, like, racial slurs. It's like, I just. But it's important to watch things that represent how things used to be as well. I think that it's valuable to be able to track through time, like, the development of how we make art and what we deem to be acceptable in art. And I was reading. I don't remember what book I was reading. I think it might have been a Chuck Klosterman book. But talking about how, like, watch. If you watch Mad Men, which is supposed to be, like, a faithful depiction of the 1960s, it actually tells you a lot more about the 2000s, when it was made, than it tells you about the 1960s.
- [34:54]
Anita
Oh, that's fascinating.
- [34:56]
Jensen McRae
And so, like, when you watch a period piece, you learn a lot about, like, the time. You learn not only about the period that it's set in, but also, like, what people thought about that time period when they were making it. So you learn the Mad Men is not a depiction of the 1960s. It's a depiction of what people in the 2000s thought the 1960s was like. And so I think, like, having a real life time capsule in the form of west side Story is very valuable. It's like, this is what the people. This is what people actually were thinking and saying and doing in that time. And this is what they thought was acceptable.
- [35:27]
Anita
Yeah. And these were sort of artistic manifestations of. Of real concerns as well. And I think what's so powerful, and this was like a genuinely controversial thing when it came out and like the way in which people were using dance and jazz and basically every artistic color in their palette, like sometimes literally with the use of color in the movie to highlight what was a contemporary issue. And like, that was. That was legitimately a concern for people. Like, and there's something so, like, could you, if you wanted to make fun of the fact that like, for the majority of the movie, most of this war and this fighting is happening via medium, the medium of like dancing and clicking, like. Yes, but does that also mean that we got a PG film that you could like, truly explore the kind of. This issue that most Americans would only have heard of in paper is reported on in a very probably racist or at least biased way. Do you know what I mean?
- [36:28]
Jensen McRae
Like, yeah, I mean, I. It's obvious it is a funny joke. It's a punchline now that like, yes, they're dancing gangs. But I mean, I hadn't. I hadn't really considered that. I hadn't considered that that was a way of expressing something that would have been if, if you had made it, not a. Like, if it wasn't a musical or like, if it was a musical but it didn't involve dance and it involved actual violence. Like, I mean, the only really violent scene is like the last scene, basically. And if you had had a movie that was just a bunch of people just beating the crap out of each other, you know, it doesn't. The dance is an interesting metaphor. And I, as a person who does. I'm a person who doesn't necessarily appreciate dance as an art form probably as much as I should. And I think that framing in that way definitely makes me take a step back and consider the utility of dance and how in. Especially in any show where there's any kind of violence, the usage of dance as a stand in for any kind of violence or violation is actually quite profound. And I think I didn't really appreciate it as much as I probably should have.
- [37:26]
Anita
While we're on the subject of violation, like that. That fucking scene with Rita Marino's character at the end. I held my breath the entire time.
- [37:36]
Jensen McRae
It's horrible. And again, it's something that when I was a kid, it just completely went over my head.
- [37:41]
Anita
Yeah, like they're dancing really hard around Anita kind of thing. And like you're truly afraid for her safety and. And also weirdly darkly curious as to how far the movie is prepared to take it kind of thing. And it also, it really gives me a lot of like, thought around because this is a very like 5 years ago topic. But like a while ago there was so much discussion over, like, what was okay to show in a rape scene or a sexual assault scene. And I remember there being this odd kind of Jezebel.com sort of ruling on what is like, tick, this is a good rape scene. There's one in Orange is the new black boo. This is a bad rape scene. The one from. And where it's like kind of implying that there is only one kind of like a scene like that you can shoot implies that there's only one kind of way that can happen. And that's just not honest. And I, at the time, I remember that feeling very relevant. But looking back now, I'm like, what kind of crazy shit were we on?
- [38:53]
Jensen McRae
You know, we didn't have enough going on. We started making up stuff. That's what happens. You read certain articles from like however many years ago and you're like, we just didn't have enough. Like, now there's real stuff going on and we just didn't have enough to think about.
- [39:04]
Anita
Fucking hell, Jensen. I'm so glad that somebody said this because, like, I had this moment the other day. Cause I used to work at a women's website, like a very. It was like London's equivalent to Jezebel or whatever. And it was like very man spreading what are we doing about it kind of stuff. And now with everything that's going on, I'm like, we were so fucking naive. Like, what the fuck were we on about?
- [39:27]
Jensen McRae
I mean, it goes to show the propaganda machine was very effective. The propaganda machine's not working as well anymore. Really. Cause like, the pro. A lot of the stuff that we're dealing with now has been going on for a long time. But like, the mask is just off. But like, you know, 10 years ago, like, we were just like, la la la la la. Buzzfeed, Listicle.
- [39:46]
Anita
Who cares?
- [39:47]
Jensen McRae
And now we just don't. We don't have the luxury to do things like that anymore.
- [39:51]
Anita
Yeah, we were just over there in the content factory making up Portmanteaus. Do you know what I mean? Being like CEO momfluencer, like, meanwhile world.
- [40:03]
Jensen McRae
Was already burning, but we didn't know, so we were just like 10 ways to lean in. But yeah, I mean, I think, like, I mean, I've definitely read think pieces about like, the depiction of sexual assault in media. And I think at the end of the day, like, it's something that, like, I don't know if there's like a handbook, I don't know if there's like a rule book that we can say, like, this is definitively the way to do it and the way to not do it. And I mean, I'm personally.
- [40:31]
Caroline
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- [41:08]
Jensen McRae
That sounds like a threat.
- [41:09]
Caroline
Then how do you think we should say it?
- [41:10]
Jensen McRae
Unlimited talk, text and data for just $25 a month for the rest of your life.
- [41:15]
Caroline
I don't know.
- [41:16]
Jensen McRae
Until your ultimate demise.
- [41:18]
Caroline
What if we just say forever? Okay, $25 a month.
- [41:21]
Jensen McRae
Month. Forever. Get unlimited talk, text and Data for just 25amonth with Boost Mobile Forever. After 30 gigabytes, customers may experience slower speeds. Customers will pay 25amonth as long as they remain active on the Boost Unlimited plan. Maybe this is controversial. Maybe this is, like, overly conservative. I think that there's a lot of value in not showing. I think there's a lot of value in implying just because, like, the more graphic a scene like that, like, I just watched. Not to spark more controversy, but I just watched. It ends with us, the Blake Lively Justin Baldoni movie.
- [41:54]
Anita
Oh, haven't seen. What was that?
- [41:55]
Jensen McRae
I didn't watch it when it came out in theaters. And I watched it when it was on streaming, and there's like a protracted graphic sexual assault scene. And I didn't know that it was in there. And I almost turned the movie off. And I was like, what value does this have? Like, it's about. Obviously it's about an abusive husband. And, like, we already knew he was abusive. Like, it was already. It had already been established time and time again. And then they go and put this long, like, overly long scene. And I was like, this is, like, this is upsetting and this is unnecessary. And I'm baffled that it was included. And obviously in the case of west side Story, like, that scene's not graphic. Like, nothing really happens. And I think that, like, there's. I think there's value in that. In the same way that, like, having dance as a stand in for fighting, having dance as a stand in for the implication of sexual assault. You get the point, you know, and, like, you get. You get the message. And, like, I don't know, Like, I think. Not that it's uncreative to depict sexual assault literally and to depict it in real time, but, like, I often wonder, like, what is the value of this? Like, are you trying. Cause sometimes it feels like they're trying to, like, confusedly titillate the viewer. And it's like, that's not what that's supposed to be. Like, having the implication off screen or through some other means, it gets the message across. And the character living with the aftermath of that gets the message across. And I, Yeah, I don't. I'm going to argue against depicting it pretty much every time.
- [43:20]
Anita
Yeah, I can. Like, what do I really think? I do think there are cases where it can be powerful. But then again, I'm also struggling to think of those cases. Do you know what I mean? If I were to give you, like, I serve you up a thing where it's like, oh, we see it all and it. It. It matters. Weirdly, the, The. The scenes that always get me and that I love and that I would never want to get rid of are scenes that inevitably ended in some kind of female triumph. Like, I don't know if you're in the movie True Romance at all.
- [43:55]
Jensen McRae
No.
- [43:56]
Anita
So in that, you know, Patricia Arquette is like this tiny little sexy girl, and she is. And James Gandolfini is a hitman who tries to murder her, and then she ends up murdering him. But. But first we see her take a fucking beating, and it is savage and it's hard to watch. But also the ways in which she fights back. And I love this. I love when a woman fights back with her, like, female stuff that's around. So she, like. It's like hairspray in the eyes. And then she picks up the back of the toilet thing and, like, knocks him over the head and then gets a wine screw through his feet. And it's like. It's that kind of. That sort of scrappy girl fighting that's just, like, stunning. And I love it. And I guess I would never trade in that scene because the release that you get at the end of it is so. It feels so cathartic. Like.
- [44:43]
Jensen McRae
No, that's great. And I also just thought of a scene that I do. Even though it was incredibly difficult to watch, I did think it was amazing. Did you see baby reindeer?
- [44:53]
Anita
No. God, we haven't seen any.
- [44:56]
Jensen McRae
I mean, baby reindeer. I would say go into. Don't go into it. When you're feeling mentally or emotionally fragile. That is a dark, dark show. But there's one episode in the middle in particular that, like, basically the entire episode, you will have a stomachache. Like, it is almost unbearable to watch. And there is a scene of sexual assault. I mean, there's a couple scenes of sexual assault in the show, but there's one in particular that people who have seen it will know what I'm talking about. And it is, like. It's the most graphic scene of sexual assault I've ever seen. And it was horrible. But I do see why it was included. And, like, I did. And also, the victim in this case is a man, which, like, maybe that's why. Maybe that's why. But that's, like, the one that jumps to my mind of, like, that was really graphic. They could have implied it. They chose not like you. I think, if I remember correctly, you think the camera's gonna move. It's, like, about to. Like, you think it's about to happen. You think the camera's about to move away to imply it and it doesn't move and that. I mean, it's not for most. I think a lot of people probably would not be able to bear watching it. I don't know how. I. I think I was just in a headspace where I was able to handle it. But. But that is an example of a scene where I think it did work narratively, but it's rare. And I do. I mean, but west side Story, like, that would have been really out of place. Like, if they had done, like, it would have been a crazy, total shift.
- [46:10]
Anita
That was crazy. Yeah. But the thing is, it's still a crazy tunnel ship.
- [46:15]
Jensen McRae
It is already a crazy tunnel ship.
- [46:16]
Anita
Even though it stays within the language of the film itself, which is what makes it such an impressive thing, you know, an effective thing.
- [46:24]
Jensen McRae
But what happens? Doc Brown. Not Doc Brown.
- [46:27]
Anita
Doc Brown. Not Doc Brown. Not Doc Brown.
- [46:30]
Jensen McRae
Yeah. What's his name? Christopher Lloyd just appears in the movie for 30 seconds. No, but Doc, the owner of the pharmacy, he comes in and interrupts. Right? That's what stops it, right?
- [46:37]
Anita
Yes. And then he says. He kind of helps her up and he gets her out of there and he says, I don't know why you boys have to pretend to be at war all the time. Which is so, I think, is really effective and also really speaks to, I think. I mean, obviously I'm not a person in the 50s or 60s, but, like, what would have been, like. Because kind of gangland violence was such a hot button topic of that era. And, you know, that was. It was also reflected in things like Rebel Without a Cause. And you can so feel the previous generation who has gone through two world wars and, like, who had, like, you know, we're sort of dreaming up this America for this new generation of baby boomer kids and being like, why are you. Why are you doing this? And the answer to that is I think that we are so good at training men for army that they will turn everything into Army.
- [47:35]
Jensen McRae
Yes, yes.
- [47:36]
Anita
Men will make absolutely anything into army. Yeah.
- [47:40]
Jensen McRae
I mean, I read a book a few years ago about serial killers. I had a bit of a serial killer phase, like many women do, I think. And they were talking about, obviously the critical mass of serial killers was in the 70s and 80s. And one of the things that they talked about being a reason why is that the men. These men had fathers who had fought in World War II, who had come home who had PTSD and, like, didn't know how to talk about what they had seen. And these were boys that had grown up, like, on stories and depictions of the war and they. I mean, obviously the Vietnam War happened, but it was like, it wasn't the same. And I think that, like, to your point, generationally, like, especially in America, like, yeah, we're kind of just con. Everything sort of is implied that, like, men are eventually going to have to take up arms. Like, the implication of American culture is, like, as a man, everything you're doing is in preparation for one day having to defend your wife, your kids, your country. Like, at some point that's gonna be called into question and you're gonna have to either fight with your bare hands or with a gun and do something about it. And so all of that like fear and dread and anxiety and anger gets displaced onto other things and creates army, where there's army for anyone with eyes to see it.
- [48:56]
Anita
Exactly. Everything is army. Like, yeah, completely. And like, you know, because I'm self employed and I try and go to the gym when I can, you know, I sort of like pop up there or whatever. And you see like the same guys who are just getting jacked, like more and more like the hugest guys you've ever seen in the gym at like 1:30 on a Tuesday. And I'm like, you have no job to go to and you're just, you're preparing. But for what?
- [49:22]
Jensen McRae
I mean, I think not to like go so far off script, but that was. I think I read an interesting article about this as well. Like during the early days of the pandemic about how part of the reason that people were so resistant to the measures that the government was asking for, the masks, the lockdowns, people are still resistant to masks is because especially a men, is that they want an apocalypse that involves them being able to take up arms and fight. They envision an apocalypse where they get to kill a zombie with it. Like they get to cut off people's heads or they get to have an automatic weapon. And they don't want an apocalypse that the rules are you have to help people. They don't want an apocalypse that you have to wash your hands and wear a mask and stay inside. They want an apocalypse that involves a fight where either they will die or someone else will die at their hand. And that's generally like what the most of the problems that we're dealing with now. Like also the global existential problems we're dealing with now can be solved by empathy, taking care of each other, and science. And they want global problems that involve war. They just want war. They just want the global problems to be like, oh, what your government needs you to do is to go out and kill a bunch of people. They don't want your government to be like, hey, can you like stop eating so much red meat and wash your hands? They don't want that to be the answer. And that's why we have the men that we have now.
- [50:36]
Anita
Fuck. What is the solve? Someone tell us what the solve is.
- [50:42]
Jensen McRae
I mean, I hope it's that like with generational turnover. But like, unfortunately, like a lot of these men are gonna keep instilling those things in their children. Like people always say, like, oh, well, the old generation's gonna die out and then it will be over. It's like, no. Cause they instilled it in their kids and they instilled it in their kids. Like, we have to be really conscious about trying to fix those things. But yeah, I mean, it's require a great cultural shift for people to not have the west side Stories taking place of like, people thinking that, like. Cause obviously the answer to the central problem of west side Story is both. Both sides being like, hey, these are two kids in love. Let's give them a break. Let's be nice to them and let's see how this goes. And let's not kill each other over it. But they want the answer to be. We have to literally wipe the other group off the face of the earth.
- [51:26]
Anita
Yeah. And like, and. And really, Tony and Maria are an are. They're not the reason they're fighting, but they're an excuse to fight more.
- [51:34]
Jensen McRae
Yeah. Then they were look for it anywhere. They would have. If it hadn't been Tony and Maria, it would have obviously been something else else.
- [51:41]
Anita
I'm really fascinated while we're on this subject of men and how their violence is like, you know, contained and discussed that song that, like. I mean, if this were Singing in the Rain, it would. The be. It'd be the Be a Clown song. You know that song Officer Krupsky. And they're just, oh, yeah, that one's fun. It rocks. It's so good. And it like, again, like, it's. You just want to like, watch it again and like the lyrics up and everything. But there's this whole thing of like, essentially the. The jets being like giving this sort of fake confession to first the officer that they kind of know. Officer Krupsky. And then a judge and then like a kind of like a. A therapist. But essentially giving the reasons with which they're kind of permitted to behave, the ways that they behave. And some of them are probably broadly and like demographically true. Like, oh, my dad hits me and my mom's a drug addict and I'm this. Or whatever. But it's all played in this kind of clowny way. And like, sociologically, I'm. I'm fucked up or whatever, haha kind of thing. And there's just sort of like, it's. I don't know whether this was true at the time or I'm just putting this reading on it because I'm living in 2025. But like, it feels like, oh, there's always been this interest in like diagnosing and pathologizing kind of white male violence. And there's like. There's like, there's like a margin for sympathy that does not exist elsewhere, you know?
- [53:08]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, I mean, it's. I. I guess I hadn't really thought about that either because I was thinking about how I was like, well, women don't really do. Women don't do violence in that same way. But then I was like, oh, but like, if whenever men who aren't white are violent, at least the mainstream media and the mainstream understanding of that violence is immediately turned into like an innate trait that. Like a completely non fungible innate character trait and a moral failing. Whereas, like when a white man does violence, it's like, oh, well, but can you blame him because of all the stuff that happened to him? As if that stuff doesn't happen to other people as well. But I mean, I thought it was interest. I thought it was interesting, like watching them. Yeah, I never really knew what to make of that song because. Is it them being like winking and self aware? Is it them using it as an excuse? Like, there's so much. There's so much to it. And it would be. We don't really get to explore the backstory of the jets at all. Like, as you're to your point, like, yeah, it is probably demographically true, but it's like we don't know specifically the lore of any of those people. There's no parents in that movie. Like, we don't know.
- [54:09]
Anita
No, we don't even see Maria's parents. We just have.
- [54:12]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, we don't know anybody's parents. Yeah, we see the only family is that it's Maria and her brother are the main characters. Everyone else, we don't know anyone's family life at all. And so, I mean, I guess the gangs end up being a stand in family, but they're obviously quite dysfunctional and they're all supposed to be teenagers, so they don't really. They don't know what the hell they're doing. They're not really doing any raising of any kind. Although there's that kid, there's Baby John, the youngest one.
- [54:34]
Anita
And there's the.
- [54:35]
Jensen McRae
They do have that protective instinct over Baby John and they obviously have some degree of protection over each other. But with Baby John, there's like this desire almost to keep him pure, like they're trying to shield him from the worst of it. So there is some parental impulse, but ultimately it's not enough to stop them from actually doing all the things that are enacting and reenacting their own trauma.
- [54:55]
Anita
What's your take on anybody? Is that her name?
- [54:59]
Jensen McRae
Anybody's? Yeah, I mean, it's such a. She's kind of such a throwaway character. Like, she doesn't get very much juice.
- [55:08]
Anita
I just feel like I can feel the generations of girls, gays and they's, who have just like, seen various parts of themselves in anybody. She feels like an important sort of tiny character that you wish had more.
- [55:19]
Jensen McRae
But, you know, I mean, I think, like, she. She's an example of, like, you know, she obviously wants power. Like, she's an example, like a lot of the women in this movie, not that they're content with powerlessness, but they're. They've kind of resigned themselves to the way that the world works and the way that most people do. Like, I think most people are not like revolutionaries. Like, most people kind of like, look at the social order and they go, okay, I see where I fit into this. I'm gonna get my licks where I can. I'm gonna try to get myself ahead where I can. But ultimately I'm gonna play by the rules and I'm gonna slot into the role that I've been assigned. And anybody's is like, I'm not doing that. I want the currency that comes with being a man or being a boy, I guess. And cuts off all her hair and wears their clothes and is like, this should be enough. But I mean, I think, I guess the function of her character is to demonstrate that it's like there's. In that particular setting, the idea of being a man goes. It's deeper than the performance, than the clothing and hair performance aspect of it that they have. I mean, I guess in the same way, now that conservatives insist that trans people are not real or that they're not actually, in fact, trans. Yeah. They're insistent that she can't possibly participate just because she cut her hair and wore different clothes. But I think her thing is that she's trying to get access to. To some kind of power. She's poor like the rest of them. They're all so poor. And so I guess if you're a woman, you're poor. She doesn't have, seemingly, as far as we know, the network that Maria and Anita at least have. Like, they at least have each other. They have the other women. They have the dress shop. They do have a community. I guess the implication is that anybody doesn't have that form of community. And it's like the only community that she sees that's worth having is the jets and she's trying to get it by any means necessary. And they just reject her at every turn. So you have to wonder like, well, where does she go after that? I mean, they do let her do something at the end. I don't.
- [57:14]
Anita
They like, she gives them information and then one of them is like, I don't know, says you're a real nice guy. And she's like, hooray.
- [57:23]
Jensen McRae
I think they give her a knife maybe. Like, she gets something. She gets a little triumph at the end. But it's interesting watching how every single character in the movie is like, I need to get mine where I can. Like, the resources are so artificially scarce. And so they are all looking for the ways to just get any crumb of autonomy or community or power.
- [57:42]
Anita
Do you have any other, like, special interest in any of the side characters? I mean, the side characters are very, they have a function. You know what I mean?
- [57:51]
Jensen McRae
You know, I, I, what I found when I first watched the movie, I would kind of glaze over during the scene. But in later watches it became more interesting. Was, I think his name's Iceman, the guy who sings Cool. Oh yeah.
- [58:01]
Anita
What's your take on that song? Tell me more.
- [58:04]
Jensen McRae
I just like it. I started to like it so much more the more I watched it. And it was an, again, an interesting kind of tile in the mosaic of masculinity that they're creating. Cause like, the whole thing is that like they're, they're so violent and they're constantly looking for a fight. And Iceman is like, relax, everybody, just relax for a second. And obviously in his case, it's like he's trying to prevent them from being caught. You know, it's self preservation more than anything. But it is an interesting theme to explore of like, what if masculinity was about pausing and thinking before we act, as opposed to about just immediately doing violence at any opportunity or at the first sign of being disrespected. I was just gonna say he's also kind of hot. I realize now most of the time he's fucking hot.
- [58:45]
Anita
Yeah, totally.
- [58:46]
Jensen McRae
Like, didn't really, again, was wasted on me as a nine year old. But in older watches, I'm like, wait, he's like the hottest guy in the movie.
- [58:53]
Anita
Yeah. Very piercing wolf eyes.
- [58:56]
Jensen McRae
Yeah. And like just like distinguished. And I think again, in contrast to like, Riff is so peripatetic and Bernardo is so macho and misogynistic and like, everyone is, everyone is so violent and like insane and like, just like a live wireless and he's just like. He's calm, cool. He's ice. That's why they call him Iceman. And that's the hottest guy in the movie. And I think that's an important thing that you learn as you get older.
- [59:19]
Anita
So important. What do you think is the relevance in that scene when all the girls are just, like, flashing the headlights on the cars? It's very spooky, but I don't know what it's for. It just might be atmosphere. I don't know.
- [59:31]
Jensen McRae
I mean, I think atmosphere. I think, like, trying to maybe desensitize them from sudden movements. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like it's. Yeah. The girls are also. I mean, there's also the argument of, like, they're just trying to participate. Right. Like, they. The girls are. What's it, their name? Graziella. And I don't remember the other one's name, but they're very rarely afforded any opportunity to participate. They're the arm candy of the guys. And I think there's a moment where they say something to that effect where they're like, we can do stuff. We can be helpful, too. And they're like, ah, get out of here. I think that. I mean, they pity anybodies. I think there's a scene where they have an interaction with anybody's with, like, a degree of pity. But there's ultimately also some envy there of like, I want to do something, I want to matter. I want to be a part of this. I don't want to just wear a pretty dress and, like, hang on Riff's arm. And I think it's an opportunity for them to feel like they're participating in the conference about what to do next about the strategy meeting.
- [60:29]
Anita
I feel like we've skipped over some very key Tony and Maria bits. And the bits I wanted to line on specifically is the whole piece in the bridal shop and also somewhere. Which feels like its own thing.
- [60:45]
Jensen McRae
Yeah. I mean, I gotta say, like, now that you mention. I'm like, oh, we've talked about all my favorite moments in the movie. Because frankly, the Tony and Maria moments.
- [60:52]
Anita
Are not as interesting.
- [60:55]
Jensen McRae
Like, I find they're just, like, sweet. They're very sweet. I do think that the dance scene with Tony and Maria is great. I think Tony singing Maria is great. I almost like more the Tony and Maria talking about each other separate than I like them together. Like Tony talking about Maria in Maria. Beautiful Maria. And Anita singing A Boy like that. Literally, like, life changing. Such a knockout song. I love how it's choreographed. I love the lighting. They're so amazing. Tony, Maria in the bridal shop. Tony and Maria getting married. Like, it's a little slow for Somewhere is a beautiful song. It is also, again, if you're gonna talk about the heart and soul of the movie, another song that really is the heart and soul of the movie. Just like talking about, like, there has got to be a better place. And one day we will get there. One day we will be able to live somewhere freely. One day it won't be like this, but it doesn't. I feel like inadvertently and I feel like this happens in a lot of. Maybe not all love stories, but in a lot of love stories where you do have a built out ensemble cast, the other people just end up being more compelling. Cause Maria. The thing about Maria and Tony, they have to be stand ins for like a universal love story in many ways. They're not really allowed to have much personality because they have to just be like universal man and universal woman. Whereas like these other characters are able to play more of a variety of different roles. Like, Anita gets to be like hot, spicy love interest and also voice of reason. And also like strong independent woman. Like, she's very multidimensional. And similarly, Riff, I feel like, is multidimensional. Cause he's like, you know, tough, wisecracking gang leader, but also like sensitive guy in search of a brother. Like, there's just like. They all have stories. Whereas like Tony and Maria, the only stories that they get. I mean, Tony gets a little bit of like, I used to be a gangbanger and I'm not anymore. But mostly it's just that they have to be two people in love. And that's like the entire narrative. And they do not get any desires outside of each other. And I think maybe that's what makes it harder for me. Like when I return to it, I'm like, I'm kind of more interested in these other stories. Cause like, contemporary rom coms don't really. They can't really get by without giving the leads real depth and dimension. But that story, it doesn't really function unless it's almost like a folktale of like, they're just. They're the units that they have to follow that trajectory.
- [63:15]
Anita
Yeah. And there are so many musicals that are like that. If you think of even Grease, like, you don't care about Sandy, you care about Rizzo.
- [63:22]
Jensen McRae
You know, Rizzo has the best songs, she has the best one liners. She's the most interesting. Yeah, Sandy is just Like, I mean, it's in fan fiction, you know, like the term Mary Sue.
- [63:31]
Anita
Yes, I do. Yeah.
- [63:32]
Jensen McRae
Yeah. Like, they, like.
- [63:33]
Anita
Sorry, but our listeners might not. So why don't you explain?
- [63:35]
Jensen McRae
Oh, yes, yes, yes. So, yeah, in fan fiction, the concept of the Mary sue is basically just like the standard female character who is perfect. Like, she doesn't have any real flaws. She doesn't have any real quirks or personality. Like, she. Or if she does have any hobbies or traits, like, she's kind of good at everything. Everything kind of goes her way. Like, she's just not interesting. And it's impossible to root for her because she's so unrelatable. Like, she's beautiful without knowing it and blah, blah, blah. And unfortunately, there are certain protagonists in various pieces of media that are like that. But the function of that being in, like, a love story is it's like, she's beautiful. Everyone knows she's beautiful. She does whatever is expected of a woman in the social contract that she's inhabiting. So, like, in this case, like, she's docile mostly. Like, she doesn't really push back against. I mean, she says to Bernardo, I want to dye my dress red. But ultimately, her only act of rebellion is through falling in love with this man. She would never rebel in any other way.
- [64:26]
Anita
But I think, actually, because this movie ends with Maria walking away, it's like this event is the creation of her character. Like, this is the thing that will. She will define her life around. And, like, there's something. I mean, because I didn't know the ending. I mean, I knew they were. I knew it's Romeo and Juliet, so. So I was like, well, they're both gonna have to die.
- [64:46]
Jensen McRae
And so, yeah, fascinating that she doesn't.
- [64:48]
Anita
When she takes the gun at the end, you just think, like, oh, fucking Natalie Wood is gonna shoot herself on the head, like. Or whatever. And then she kind of walks off, and you're just left staring at the screen and you have to think about, like, who that woman has to be tomorrow, you know?
- [65:02]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, it definitely creates the opportunity for her to be so much more than she was. And, I mean, I guess to her credit, like, she had led such an incredibly sheltered life, and she lived an entire lifetime in three days. And now that she has experienced the loss of who she thought was the love of her life, it will inevitably engender some character development. Like, something. She's gonna develop a personality now. But, yeah, Tony. I mean. Yeah, Tony. Similarly, like, he's kind of. I don't remember. Was It. I think they call it Gary Sue. There's like, whatever they call Gary Sue. I don't. I think. I don't remember if that's right, but there's like, some equivalent for men, but it's like, he's perfect. He also, like. I mean, I will say, oh, what's. What's the. What's the name of his song? Is it called Could Be? Who Knows? What's the name, the song that he's in? Could Be, who Knows? It's only just out of reach, down the block on a beach. That one. I love that song, too. Also one that I always watch when I rewatch it. He is clearly foreshadowing his meeting of Maria. So I guess in theory he has slightly more depth, but ultimately he's. His character is, like, just in a state of waiting. He's like, oh, I want something to happen to me. That's his whole personality. And then he meets Maria and he's like, well, that's the thing that was supposed to happen to me. And then he dies.
- [66:12]
Anita
Then he dies.
- [66:13]
Jensen McRae
So, yeah, Maria is the one that comes out with the opportunity to have. To have a real life and to have opinions and experiences.
- [66:22]
Anita
I also just love, like, the way that thing is shot, man. The way this whole fucking movie is shot. I love any movie musical that is kind of frank about the fact that it was on stage and it was made for stage, and it's going to use the elements of stage production where it's the most beautiful place to do it, you know? And, like. And, like, it's so funny because I remember growing up and I wonder if you had this. Watching movies with my brothers and having them say, like, ugh, so clearly a set. Do you know what I mean? Like. Or whatever looking, you know, whenever you want an episode of Friends, when they're, like, in the street outside the coffee house. And it's so. It's like the most, like, unconventional, convincing, sort of Sesame Street New York, like, LA backlot you've ever seen. And the older I get and the more I think cinema has tended towards hyper realism. I have. I've been like, no, show me the set. Show me the beautiful sets that somebody has painted. And like, I was watching Annie with a friend the other day, and we were a little stoned, and my friend said to me, me. She was like, you ever heard. Hear that phrase, seeing the joins? You know that phrase? Well, when you can see the joins of something, it's supposed to be an insult. It means you can see where the wood is Literally joining. It's like a carpentry insult that people often use for pieces of work. I'm like, oh, you can see the joints of like, you can see the effort and you can see the, the fingerprint still on this thing. And my friend said to me, she was like, that used to be an insult, but now I think it's a compliment. I want to see the joints. Like, I want to see the fingerprints and the nails and the like, the places where people like designed and built these sets and then choreographed these enormous dances and then just put a camera and a fucking tripod and left it there, you know, like, one of the reasons why La La Land is such a disappointing musical is first of all, those people aren't very talented.
- [68:17]
Jensen McRae
And second of all, I haven't seen it. That's my act of rebellion is. I haven't seen it.
- [68:23]
Anita
Your act of rebellion is an LA person.
- [68:25]
Jensen McRae
Yeah.
- [68:25]
Anita
But like also it's like, you know, I'm sure you probably know they've got that highway that they've shut down, that famous highway that I'm sure has a famous name. And they have people sort of like on top of their cars and dancing and it should be incredible. But because the filmmaking sort of gets in the way of what it's supposed to be. Just all these like long tracking shots and it follows certain dancers. And so you don't get any of the impressiveness of like what a movie musical like west side Story is trying to do, which is it's trying to mimic the feeling of being in a theater sitting totally still and watching this fucking like six minute dance scene happen in front of you with real energy, real people, real sweat. And like you can just see all the feet moving in tandem. And like that's like the breathless excitement of musicals. And instead we just get like very realistic looking, looking musical worlds that feel odd and, and cameras that follow people and do tricky little things. And it's like, it's just not what I fucking want. And like west side Story is what I want. Just like beautiful sets and a still fucking camera.
- [69:28]
Jensen McRae
I mean, that made me think of so many things. Like one, like the idea of the uncanny valley, right? Like the fact that everything they're in their effort to make everything hyper real. Like ultimately it's not real what we're seeing. It is manufactured and so like it does feel a little bit off. Like you're never gonna get to the point of like, oh yeah, this is 100% fully real. Cause it did have to be staged. But also what that Made me think of was, I don't remember where I was reading this, but just that as soon as an art form becomes obsolete and is replaced by something, quote, unquote, better, the inherent flaws in the previous version become recreated in the new art form. So, like, as soon as, like, film photography, grain used to be a liability in film photography when it first began. And then as soon as we got digital cameras, all we wanted to do was try to make them look like film photos. As soon as we got digital cameras, we were manually inserting grain. We used to record music to tape, and the hiss of the tape and the click of the tape was a liability. And as soon as we started recording things digitally, we were re adding in the hiss and the click of the tape. And with film, we used to build sets and we used to have one stationary camera. And as soon as we could do it realistically. I think what you're expressing is that desire to see what we used, like, is to reenact those old flaws onto the new art. Because it's what it feels like effort, it makes it feel more real. Like, ultimately, the quest to make things more perfect looking just puts us in the uncanny valley. Whereas being able to see film grain, being able to hear the hiss of tape, being able to know definitively that we're on a set, that's what makes it human. That's what makes it not feel like it was created by generative AI. It's what makes it feel human, is cause we can see that human beings made it. And as a person who's like a lifelong try hard. I'm obsessed with seeing naked effort. I'm obsessed with seeing sweat. I wanna know you try. I don't want. I don't really want things to look effortless, frankly. Like, I find effortlessness boring. Like, oh, you didn't even have to try to do that. Okay. Like, I want to see someone who at the end of the dance number, like, in west side Story, there's so many scenes where at the end of when they're done dancing, everyone's like, panting and sweating. Yeah, like, that is cool. Like, you. I know that took a bunch of takes. And I know it took a bunch because you guys had to do it in one take. And I know it took a bunch of effort, and I know it took hours of rehearsal. And, like, that's what I want want. Like, I want proof that this happened and that it was people who made it. And it wasn't automatons and it wasn't computer generated, like, worth. So especially now we are starving for that.
- [71:50]
Anita
Yeah, we are. And it's so interesting. I don't know what your feelings were on the Wicked movie, but I am obsessed with it and I am obsessed with the effort every. I'm just obsessed with effort as well. I'm the exact same fucking person as you like that. Like I just. That whole. I watched so many behind the scenes things of like John Chu talking about, about how he not only did he plant all of those tulips, he waited three harvests to use them because for them to be the appropriate height they needed to be, you know. And like I just think that we are, you know, fingers crossed. I know that like, you know, the money is falling out of the movie industry. Like there's a hole in the middle of it. But like I think we are going to see a reemergence of practical effects like in the next couple of years. Like if you think about the Barbie movie and the Wicked movie, like we're. I think I just hope movies don't need to be like $350 million or whatever in order to be practical. We can just paint some sets again.
- [72:44]
Jensen McRae
You know, I mean, I really do. This is kind of my. What keeps me going in my heart is I think the same thing is going to happen with art is what happened like with food. Like, you know how you have to pay extra for organic food? I think that's what's going to happen with art where like there's going to be a bunch of AI slop that's pushed out into the world, but we're still going to make like we're still gonna do stuff as people. And I think that it's. Maybe there will be a premium in terms of cost on what that costs. Like, hey, do you want to see stuff that was made by people? Hey, do you want to see stuff that looks human? It's gonna cost you 25% more because it's organic. Like that's my kind of consolation. It's not like the ideal outcome, but I don't think there's any way to stop all of this just like AI generated crap from being pumped out because it's cheap to free. But I do think that you can't stop people from making art and you can't stop humans from wanting to see art made by humans. And I think there are plenty of. Just as there are plenty of people who read terrible books. Like they read terrible books that were written by someone just churning them out one a day. But people still want literature and they still buy it and there's still a market for it. And ultimately the people who don't care what they consume is that we were never going to appeal to them anyway. I think the same thing is going to be true of music and of movies especially. Obviously, live theater's not going anywhere for a while. We can't replace that with robots yet. And so I do think that that's what I agree, that there's going to be a reemergence of things that feel deeply human. I think that's going to become a status symbol, is consuming things that are deeply human and doing things that are in the digital world, doing things virtually doing things with the help of AI. It's going to become kind of gauche, I think, and hope it'll become a thing that you do that.
- [74:19]
Anita
I'm with you. And the thing is that these frameworks already exist. Right? Like, theater already costs a lot of money. Like, going to the cinema is fucking expensive, like, whatever. But like, you know, it's the branding that we. That will change. Like, nothing will functionally change. Like, it will still cost 150 fucking quid to go to a Broadway musical. But yeah, I think you're right. The messaging is about to change in a big way.
- [74:47]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, I just, I really, I see it a lot. I see it especially with the. I mean, I'm Gen Z, I guess, technically people are talking about how with Gen Alpha, the generation younger than me, it's going to become a status symbol to not have a digital footprint. And I think that's all true. Everything related to being online, to being on social media, to kind of communing with the digital realm is going to become a thing that's considered not cool. Like, I think it'll be cool to be like, oh yeah, I hang out with my friends in the real world. Oh yeah, I go see live theater. Oh yeah. Like, I will only watch movies that look like humans made them.
- [75:19]
Anita
Yeah, I mean, certainly I have Gen Alpha genital nephew and niece, and that seems to be the way they're going. Like, they don't 0% post. Like, they post a couple of things. But what's so reassuring is they post exactly what I used to post when I was their age, which is like five photos of their bad house party and then they don't post again for a year.
- [75:41]
Jensen McRae
And that's the way that. So that's what social media is. I'm on pixelfed now, which is like the new old Instagram vibe. Not very many people are on it, but the way it functions is very similar to the way Instagram used to function. Everyone who's on there is just posting pictures of a sunset or a selfie or their coffee. There's no celebrities on there. You just are posting for yourself. And then if other people see your thing and like it. And I really do hope that that becomes the new wave. I mean, I think because of, like, you know, what's going on, obviously, with the American government trying to monopolize the way we communicate, I think people are just gonna. People hate those guys so much that I really do think the usage of their apps is going to fall out of spite. Twitter already is losing users by the millions.
- [76:25]
Anita
Oh, yeah.
- [76:26]
Jensen McRae
Every day.
- [76:26]
Anita
Yeah.
- [76:27]
Jensen McRae
And so I think, like, these other platforms, it's just gonna keep happening. Cause those guys have made themselves so unlikable that we're just like, yeah, I don't wanna use anything you own.
- [76:36]
Anita
I'm married to a graphic designer. And so the one thing I have to add is that whenever he sees type design in the world, he just says, no one told me it was typography Sunday. And when. When I watched the end credits of this movie, I said out loud to myself, no one told me it was typography Sunday. Because that those end credits are gorgeous.
- [77:01]
Jensen McRae
They're beautiful. Again, not a. Not a detail was spared. This was from top to bottom. They thought through everything.
- [77:06]
Anita
They thought through every motherfucking thing. And I'm so grateful for them for doing it. I'm so grateful to you for coming on this podcast. Jensen McRae, can you tell us your mostly English and sometimes Australian listeners, what's next from you?
- [77:19]
Jensen McRae
New music is coming. New music is on the way. Sooner than you think shows even could be happening. Who's to say? Especially if you live in the UK and Ireland. Keep an eye out. Who knows when that'll be? I couldn't say, but it could be soon. Yeah, but stuff is coming. You can follow me on Instagram, I guess. Not on TikTok.
- [77:42]
Anita
Not on TikTok.
- [77:43]
Jensen McRae
And subscribe to me on YouTube. I'm trying to get my YouTube following up now.
- [77:47]
Anita
Oh, yeah, do that. I'll do that. And like, if anyone, you know, my favorite of your songs, I think Massachusetts is the most beautiful.
- [77:54]
Jensen McRae
Thank you.
- [77:54]
Anita
Beautiful song. And I also love My Ego Dies at the End. And I also had a great jam to White Boy today.
- [78:01]
Jensen McRae
Even though that's a deeper cut.
- [78:03]
Anita
It is. But it's like there's something about your intonation specifically on that song that's so Tracy Chapman core to me.
- [78:09]
Jensen McRae
Oh, thank You.
- [78:10]
Anita
It's like, the tone of your voice or something. Is that, like, an intentional riff?
- [78:14]
Jensen McRae
I mean, I steal from a few different people. I actually just. The festival that I was playing this past weekend was for Brandi Carlisle. I steal Brandi Carlisle's voice when I can. Katie Gavin, the lead singer of Muna. I steal her voice. Adele. Those are probably the people that I like. I copy their vocal inflections and tone the most.
- [78:33]
Anita
And you've done, like, a Phoebe Bridgers, sort of kind of a parody. Kind of not a parody, which is. I love when things sit in that place of, like, this is kind of a parody. It's not them now.
- [78:45]
Jensen McRae
Yeah, it definitely started that way. And then, like, when it. That was, like, my first time going viral, and when it went viral, like, and my team and I were discussing what we were gonna do with it, it was very much like, this. This can't literally. Like, it has to be a you song. Like, it started as a Phoebe parody, and now if we put it out, it has to be you. And I was like, no, I get it. I don't want to. I don't want to be a parody artist.
- [79:03]
Anita
Well, I love your stuff, and I. I love talking to you, and I hope you'll come back on the podcast again soon.
- [79:08]
Jensen McRae
You got it.
- [79:28]
Caroline
At Verizon, anyone can trade in their old phone for a new one on us with unlimited ultimate, which means everyone in your family could get a new phone and stay on your family plan. Keeping you close.
- [79:40]
Jensen McRae
Hey, mom, you seen my toothbrush?
- [79:42]
Anita
Yeah, I'm almost done with it.
- [79:46]
Caroline
Oh, maybe too close. Trade in an additional term supply. See verizon.com for details.