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- [00:02]
Sarah Reed
Hey, it's Sarah. Juror number 11 from the sequestered podcast. Here's exciting news. Dateline NBC has just released a new episode titled the pin at apartment 210. In this episode, DATELINE correspondent Blaine Alexander explores the investigation, the trial, and the key moments that define the search for justice in the murder of Jasmine Pace. If you've been listening to Sequestered, you know how personal this case became for me. I had the opportunity to briefly share about my experience as a juror in this episode, and I feel incredibly honored to be a part of something that helps amplify Jasmine's story on a national level. This episode isn't about the trial or the jurors. It's about Jasmine. Her voice, her family, and the lasting impact of what happened. Now streaming on Peacock. You can watch this episode of Dateline tonight or anytime you want. So check it out and help us continue to honor Jasmine Pace's memory. Go to peacocktv.com to start your free trial. Before we begin, please be advised that this episode contains graphic descriptions of violence as presented during the trial. Please take care while listening. It's Saturday, January 18, 2025, day six of the trial. By now, we were no longer the fresh, wide eyed jurors who had entered the courtroom on day one. The gravity of this case had settled in, and with each passing day, the weight of our roll grew heavier. We had listened to hours of testimony, examined evidence, and watched the state methodically build their case against Jason Chen. We'd seen Jasmine's family take the stand, heard the pain in their voices as they recounted the frantic hours they spent searching for her. We had listened to expert witnesses break down crime scene details, some with precise conclusions, others with more uncertainty. We had watched DA Cody Womp and her team present their evidence with confidence, reinforcing over and over again that this was a premeditated act. Not a crime of passion, not an accident, but a murder. The days of feeling like outsiders in the courtroom were over. At this point, we weren't just observing the trial, we were part of it. This didn't feel new anymore. We were here to finish what we started. And apparently, so was the State. This is sequestered. A juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. I'm Sarah, juror number 11. Each episode, I'll take you inside the courtroom, behind the scenes, and into the weighty moments of this trial as we honor Jasmine's life and navigate the complexities of seeking justice. Let's begin. This is episode seven. The State rests as the Courtroom took their seats. Judge Patterson turned to the prosecution and asked if they had any more witnesses. D A Cody Womp stood and to our surprise, simply said, the state rests their case. Just like that, the prosecution was done. A brief explanation followed from the bench. Now it was the defense's turn. But before we even had a chance to absorb the shift, we were asked to exit the courtroom. The judge and attorneys needed to cover a few motions before the defense could begin. We returned to our coffee, card games and books in the jury room. Meanwhile, in the courtroom, we the defense did something pretty standard in criminal trials. They filed what's called a motion for judgment of acquittal. This is a formal request for the judge to dismiss some or all of the charges, arguing that the prosecution didn't present enough evidence for a reasonable jury to convict. It's a way of saying, even if you take everything the state just presented at face value, it's still not enough to legally support these charges. Now, this motion is rarely granted in high profile cases like this, especially in a murder trial, but it's a critical procedural step because it preserves the defense's ability to appeal later on if needed. And in this case, the defense also made a separate request for the judge to allow the jury to consider what's called lesser included offenses. Lesser included offenses are exactly what they sound like. They're charges that are still illegal, but they're considered less severe versions of the primary charge. In this case, the primary charge was first degree murder, which requires proving premeditation, meaning the killing was planned. The defense asked the court to also instruct the jury on lesser charges, like second degree murder, which doesn't require premeditation, or voluntary manslaughter, which could apply if the killing happened in the heat of the moment. This kind of legal maneuvering is common, but it's also strategic. It gives the jury more options. So instead of choosing between convicting on the most serious charge or letting the defendant go free, they could land somewhere in the middle. It's one of those moments where you could feel both sides preparing for the end game. The defense protecting their client from the harshest sentence possible, and the state holding firm that this was a premeditated intentional murder. The defense had one more move up their sleeve. Mr. Weiss renewed a motion he'd already tried once before. He asked the judge to allow a forensic psychologist named Dr. Douglas Lewis to testify for the defense. Now, this wasn't just a random request, because earlier in the trial, the state's Expert medical examiner, Dr. Steven Cogswell, actually said that the best kind of expert to speak to Jason Chen's state of mind would be a forensic psychologist. That's exactly who Dr. Lewis was. And the defense wanted to bring him in to testify about Jason's ability or inability to form premeditation. This is important because premeditation is what separates first degree murder from the other lesser charges I mentioned. If Jason didn't have the mental capacity to form premeditation, the jury could consider a lesser offense like second degree murder or even manslaughter for a second time. Judge Patterson denied the request, and the reasoning was layered. First, Judge Patterson said Dr. Lewis opinions were too speculative, meaning they didn't meet the legal standard of certainty needed for expert testimony. Basically, his opinion didn't cross that line from this could be possible to this is what happened to a reasonable degree of psychological certainty. Also, because the defense had waited until after the trial started to formally request Dr. Lewis testimony, Judge Patterson ruled it would be unfair to the state to allow it at this point in the trial. So the motion was denied. Again, the defense took a break here to organize their witnesses. And about 30 minutes later, we entered the courtroom and took our seats in the jury box. The defense calls their first witness to the standard Courtney Paglino Brewer. Courtney was the neighbor who lived in apartment 110, the unit directly below Jason Chen's apartment. Let's listen in to defense attorney Weiss asking Courtney about the night Jasmine Pace went missing.
- [08:57]
Cody Womp
On the night of November 22, in the early hours of November 23, was there an incident that you forecall?
- [09:06]
Travis Pace
Yes, I was woken up in the middle of the night by a loud scream.
- [09:11]
Cody Womp
Can you kind of take us and you can go slowly through the events that woke you up and everything that you heard from that point until you get here?
- [09:27]
Sarah Reed
If you've been following the podcast, we've got something new for you. Now you can dive even deeper into each episode on our website, SequesteredPod.com we've added exclusive blogs for every episode, packed with extra details, behind the scenes insights and key moments from the trial. Plus, we've organized all the trial and news coverage by each day of the trial so you can follow along just like we did in the jury room. Head over to SequesteredPod.com now to explore the case in a whole new way.
- [10:18]
Travis Pace
There was a scream that started me out of my sleep. I checked my phone to see the time because I was going to call 91 1. It was around 2am There was a voice that was screaming words. The words I couldn't Understand fully.
- [10:37]
Cody Womp
Was it a male voice, a female voice?
- [10:41]
Travis Pace
And then assuming that the apartment above mine is laid out the same as mine, there sounded like chasing a lot of footsteps going across towards the front door.
- [10:52]
Cody Womp
One person's footsteps or two footsteps?
- [10:54]
Travis Pace
It sounded like multiple.
- [10:55]
Cody Womp
You said towards the front door Was towards the front door?
- [10:58]
Travis Pace
Of course, towards the time Marcus. I was in the bedroom and I heard it.
- [11:03]
Cody Womp
You had said that you heard a scream. Can you describe the scream?
- [11:08]
Travis Pace
Distressed. Not quite. Angry? Emphatic.
- [11:17]
Cody Womp
What? And you said you could hear arguing. Did that sound like an argument or a fight?
- [11:22]
Travis Pace
I thought that maybe I had heard the tail end of a fight. I only ever heard one voice, and.
- [11:29]
Cody Womp
That was the female voice. After hearing the scream and the arguments and the footsteps, what did you do?
- [11:38]
Travis Pace
I laid there awake for a minute because I couldn't go back to sleep. My husband had woken up, but he thought the noise came from outside, and he went back to sleep rather easily. I could hear the sounds of tv. And then when I moved from the bedroom to my living room, there were sounds of someone walking across the apartment and the sound of the washer and the garbage table.
- [12:10]
Cody Womp
You said you could hear the arguing?
- [12:14]
Travis Pace
I only heard her voice, so I just assumed it was an argument.
- [12:21]
Cody Womp
You couldn't make out what was being said?
- [12:22]
Travis Pace
No.
- [12:23]
Cody Womp
Did you hear any crying?
- [12:26]
Travis Pace
The voice that came after the screaming, that was. It kind of sounded like when you're already upset but you're trying to prove a point and you're crying at the same time. So it was just very kind of garbled. I would say that there was crying behind it.
- [12:44]
Cody Womp
Did you call nine of the ones?
- [12:45]
Travis Pace
I did not. Because by the time I settled down from being abruptly woken up and thought that I heard footsteps go across and a door slam, I thought that it had just been a normal apartment argument and everything kind of calmed down.
- [13:04]
Cody Womp
Did you ever contact authorities?
- [13:06]
Travis Pace
I did.
- [13:07]
Cody Womp
When did you contact authorities?
- [13:10]
Travis Pace
I want to say the 2027 or the 28th.
- [13:14]
Cody Womp
Why did you contact?
- [13:16]
Travis Pace
Because I had seen the missing persons poster for Jasmine on Facebook and connected the dots of her last name location being the floor above mine. And so I submitted a tip to Crime Stoppers saying what I heard, and I just thought it was the right thing to do.
- [13:37]
Cody Womp
And is what you told Crime Stoppers then the same thing as you testified so far this morning?
- [13:41]
Travis Pace
Yes, sir.
- [13:44]
Sarah Reed
Courtney testified that in the early hours of November 23, the night Jasmine was murdered, she was jolted awake by a loud, panicked scream. It startled her so much, she immediately grabbed her phone to check the time, thinking she might need to call 91 1. According to her, it was 2:11am it was the voice that stuck with her. The scream she heard came from a woman. And after that initial burst of terror, Courtney could hear her trying to talk through sobs, like she was crying and arguing at the same time. The words were garbled and Courtney couldn't make out exactly what was being said. Then came what she described as chasing the sounds of two people running from the floor directly above her toward the front door of the apartment, followed by the distinct sound of the front door slamming. 20 minutes later, Courtney heard the TV in the bedroom turn on loudly. And about 30 minutes after that, she hears the garbage disposal turn on and then the washing machine, which she described were both running at the same time. It wasn't until days later, when Courtney saw Jasmine's missing person flyer on Facebook, that she realized what she had actually heard. According to the flyer, Jasmine's last known location was at 110 Tremont street, apartment 210, the apartment directly above hers. That's when Courtney knew she had to say something. She immediately submitted a tip to Crime Stoppers, sharing everything she remembered from that night. As I sat there listening to Courtney, my mind couldn't stop racing with questions. Questions, of course, that no one could fully answer. Was the TV turned up to cover the sound of something no one was supposed to hear? What was Jason washing in the middle of the night? Sheets. Clothes? Something worse. And the garbage disposal. What did he put down there? Was it something small? Or was it evidence of something that could never be recovered? None of us knew for sure. But what haunted me the most was the realization that Jason wasn't just up late tidying his apartment. He wasn't cleaning the house. He was covering up a crime scene right above Courtney's head. The next witness was Jasmine's biological father, Travis Pace. Something to be aware of is that Travis and Jasmine's mom, now Katrina Bean, are divorced. With Mr. Weiss leading Travis took us through the night Jasmine's family realized she was missing. November 26th, into the early morning hours of the 27th. On the 26th, Travis was out to dinner with friends, celebrating Thanksgiving, when his daughter Gabby called in a panic. Jasmine wasn't answering her phone and no one knew where she was. Travis and his girlfriend drove to the last location Jasmine's phone had pinged, a building near Tremont Street. When they got there, they found Gabby and some of Jasmine's friends all trying to figure out how to get inside. They managed to get into the building through a back door and started knocking loudly on every door they could. They were desperate to make noise, to wake people up and find someone who had seen Jasmine. And that's when they learned about Jason Chen. A neighbor told them Jason lived on the second floor and that Jasmine had been there recently. That's all they needed to hear. Travis went straight to Jason's apartment and knocked. There was no answer. The door was locked, but Travis managed to force the handle open. What he found inside made his stomach drop. The apartment was empty, but it was clear someone had left in a hurry. The bed was unmade and there were female items in the bathroom. When Travis opened a desk drawer, there was Jasmine's driver's license and credit cards just sitting there in a neat little stack. That's the moment he knew something was terribly wrong.
- [18:00]
Cody Womp
What did you do in the bedroom? Looked. There were no persons in the bedroom. So now I turned around with a different goal of not looking for a person but to look for evidence adjustment. What did you do to look for evidence to Jasmine? The doors were. The cabinets were open. Things were on the surface. And it appeared there were female products in the bathroom. And walking forward and opened the drawer. There was a computer desk in the top left of the apartment if you're facing to the hallway. So if you enter in through the door, is it to the right? Yes, to the right. Immediately there's a computer desk. Open the drawer. Jasmine's driver's license was right there on the top, stacked up in a pile. Slid it. Her credit cards, her bank cards. A stack of all of Jasmine's cards and identifications were right there. What did you do? I took them out of the drawer and I spread them apart widely, distinctly from left to right. Why'd you do that? They without a search warrant, they could not open a drawer and look for those themselves. And I tell me telling them that they were there, it was hearsay. But if I lay it across the countertop and they flashed their light on it and recorded it, they can show that to missing persons. There's something we made it forward. You needed to do something to help the police investigate. Yes. What did you do after you laid out the cards? Called 91 1. Actually, as soon as I opened the drawer and I saw the cards, I called 911 and told them to call 91 1. This is absolutely the apartment that Jasmine was in.
- [20:03]
Sarah Reed
Travis immediately stepped out of the apartment and called 911. At this point, Mr. Weiss asked Travis Pace if he would recognize himself on a 911 recording. The state objected wildly, and the jury was asked to leave the courtroom. While we were out, they played the 911 tape for Travis Pace, but Judge Patterson ultimately overruled the option to play it in court. So we never heard it. All we know is that Travis told the 911 operator exactly where they were and that Jasmine had been missing since Wednesday. Here is Travis Pace talking about his interaction with the officers on scene.
- [20:45]
Cody Womp
Take a report and submit a report to Missing Persons. I said, you get them on the scene, they're on standby. They're not reporting to the scene. Call your detective or your sergeant and put pressure on their sergeant to make their sergeant force officer to show up. He said, the best I can do would be to tell my surgeon that I think it's important to put pressure on your sergeant and see what happens. It's the best I can do for you. They say natural damage to the apartment. I know what we did. Did you ever go back into the apartment? Yes. When did you go back into the apartment? Immediately, right when they drove off. What did you do? Continue to look for more things. What were you looking for? Anything that would lead to finding Castle. How long were you in here for? Couldn't tell you.
- [21:49]
Sarah Reed
As soon as the officers left, Travis went back into Jason Chen's apartment. He spent the next hour searching, looking for any clue that might lead him to Jasmine sitting in that jury box. What stood out to me was how clear it was that Travis wasn't thinking about evidence, chain of custody, or crime scene protocols that night. He was thinking like a dad desperate to find his daughter and doing anything he could. I couldn't quite figure out the defense's angle in calling Travis to the stand. So far, everything he testified to only seemed to strengthen the case against Jason Chen. Defense attorney Weiss takes a sharp turn after this. He focuses on the small discrepancies between Travis Pace's and Katrina Bean's testimony on the night they all went to the Tremont apartment looking for Jasmine. I'm assuming this was to put doubt in our minds that their stories didn't totally line up, but it seemed like such a small detail. If you remember, on day one of the trial, Katrina Bean testified that they used a credit card to break into Jason Chen's apartment. I remember thinking, did it really matter how they got in? At this point, both had already admitted to breaking in. When asked about the discrepancy, Travis remained calm, and his response was simple. We remember it differently. You can hear their exchange here.
- [23:18]
Cody Womp
You were there with Katrina Pace when You were interviewed by Detective Crawford and Detective Speech, weren't you? I was there. You were here in this courtroom in February of last year and you heard Katrina Pace testify. That didn't. And then this past Monday, you were in this room when you saw Katrina Pace testify on that stand. Right. Were any of those statements true? Do we remember it differently? I'm sorry, what? The statement's true. Who am I to say what the truth is? Did a resident of the apartment building open the door for you and I support you to come in the building? Who did that? Did Katrina Face or others get into store with the credit card? I'm not sure if they did or not. Who was the first person to get into the door? I was. Did he ever see Katrina face or another person use a credit card to get into the door? I do not. And you said earlier it be impossible to use a credit card to get into that door. You heard Katrina testify that she went back in the apartment multiple times after that morning. I heard that. Were you with her those times? You know what she did in the apartment during those times? Does your ex wife, Katrina Face, does she have a reputation for being honest?
- [24:51]
Sarah Reed
The state now has their chance to cross examine Travis Pace and it feels like a showdown.
- [24:58]
Travis Pace
Did you receive a subpoena to testify in this trial?
- [25:01]
Cody Womp
I did. By who?
- [25:05]
Travis Pace
Did you ever receive a subpoena from the defense attorney? Were you ever notified by the defense that they were going to call you as a witness today? Did they tell you Monday? Did they tell you Tuesday? Did they tell you Wednesday? Thursday, Friday? They tell you this morning you didn't know you were being called as a witness until you were sitting right there and he said your name, Is that right?
- [25:27]
Cody Womp
Yes.
- [25:28]
Travis Pace
How long have you and Katrina been divorced?
- [25:32]
Cody Womp
20 years.
- [25:33]
Travis Pace
Is it fair to say that y'all don't have a great relationship? Is it fair to say that this whole experience isn't hard on your already tough relationship? Sir, would you say that you're the one that initially saw Jasmine's photo ID, her driver's license and her credit cards in Mr. Chen's apartment?
- [25:53]
Cody Womp
I believe so.
- [25:54]
Travis Pace
Were they in the desk drawer?
- [25:55]
Cody Womp
They were.
- [25:56]
Travis Pace
And you took them out and put them on the desk, Is that correct? And you were knocking on doors because you couldn't find your daughter, could you?
- [26:03]
Cody Womp
Correct.
- [26:04]
Travis Pace
And all you were trying to do was find your daughter? You were desperate. You were desperate?
- [26:14]
Cody Womp
Yeah.
- [26:15]
Travis Pace
You thought she might be in Jason Chen's apartment, didn't you?
- [26:18]
Cody Womp
I don't know that part.
- [26:20]
Travis Pace
Would you have done anything to get in that apartment.
- [26:22]
Cody Womp
I would.
- [26:23]
Travis Pace
Because you had reason to believe, based on what the neighbors told you, that she could have been in danger?
- [26:29]
Cody Womp
Yeah.
- [26:31]
Travis Pace
You have a military background, is that correct? Sir? Is that one reason you're proficient in firearms?
- [26:36]
Cody Womp
It is.
- [26:37]
Travis Pace
Did you clean anything up in Mr. Chin's apartment?
- [26:40]
Cody Womp
No.
- [26:41]
Travis Pace
Did you plant any evidence in Mr.
- [26:42]
Cody Womp
Chen's apartment other than moving her credit cards and her driver's license? I don't know how to plant it.
- [26:49]
Travis Pace
You didn't take anything in there and leave it?
- [26:51]
Cody Womp
I did not.
- [26:52]
Travis Pace
Did you have any idea at the time what had happened to your daughter?
- [26:55]
Cody Womp
No.
- [26:56]
Travis Pace
Did you have any idea that she had been stabbed to death at that time?
- [26:59]
Cody Womp
Definitely not.
- [27:00]
Travis Pace
She hadn't been located, had she? But did you know that he might be involved?
- [27:05]
Cody Womp
Yes, most certainly. Because he lied about speaking with her about the duration, about the timing.
- [27:15]
Travis Pace
And you were aware that he lied?
- [27:17]
Cody Womp
Fully aware how? I had him on the phone. Dan, that's your girlfriend. You're participating with the parents to look for her. What can I do? I'm equally concerned that she's missing. How can we find her together? The fact that that wasn't happening was the biggest immediate flag. He's my number one suspect.
- [27:42]
Travis Pace
Well, did he tell you that he did it, but it's because she came after him with wine glasses?
- [27:47]
Cody Womp
No, he lied.
- [27:49]
Travis Pace
When did he say he had seen her last?
- [27:51]
Cody Womp
He lied about that.
- [27:53]
Travis Pace
Do you recall when he had said he'd seen her last?
- [27:56]
Cody Womp
I don't remember exactly what he said. I just know that it wasn't what the phone record showed. It was different than what we had proof of.
- [28:04]
Travis Pace
He wasn't concerned about it, was he?
- [28:06]
Cody Womp
No.
- [28:07]
Travis Pace
At all, was he?
- [28:12]
Sarah Reed
After that frantic night of searching, Travis and Jasmine's family were left with fear and unanswered questions. The next clue didn't come from the apartment. It came from Jasmine's own Facebook account. At some point on Saturday, November 26, a photo was posted to her Facebook page. It was a picture of Jasmine, but immediately her family and friends knew something was wrong.
- [28:42]
Travis Pace
Were you monitoring Facebook during this time period?
- [28:45]
Cody Womp
We were.
- [28:46]
Travis Pace
Do you recall a time that week when a photo was posted from your daughter's Facebook account?
- [28:54]
Cody Womp
It was literally like the match that lit this whole thing on fire. Because it was not a modest photograph posted on Facebook. And anybody that knew Jasmine knew she would not have posted that. And it was a different timeline of her photo, so it wasn't even recent either. There was so many problems with it that it drew immediate red flags to everybody in the Family and friends, people that were.
- [29:28]
Travis Pace
What day was that posted?
- [29:30]
Cody Womp
I believe that was the same Saturday. The 26th.
- [29:34]
Travis Pace
The 26th Saturday. And how do you know it wasn't.
- [29:37]
Cody Womp
A recent photo of her? She has tattoos. And we can know basically what month and year it is on which tattoos she has.
- [29:48]
Travis Pace
Did she have tattoos? In the photo she allegedly posted from her Facebook the week of Thanksgiving, they.
- [29:55]
Cody Womp
Were missing, which means that it most definitely was an earlier photograph.
- [30:04]
Sarah Reed
After some back and forth with the judge, the Facebook photo they're talking about was finally displayed on the screen. The courtroom was now presented with an image of Jasmine standing in front of a mirror, taking a photo of herself with her phone. She was wearing black lace lingerie, and as her father later described, it was not a photo Jasmine would have ever chosen to share publicly. Below the image was a caption that read, enjoying Thanksgiving with my baby. But Jasmine hadn't been with anyone for Thanksgiving, and the words didn't sound like her at all. Then came the most chilling realization. This wasn't even a recent photo of Jasmine. Her arms and body were missing. The tattoos her family and friends knew well, marks that should have been there. If this was a recent photo of her, Jasmine hadn't posted this. Jason had. It felt fake, forced, as if someone was trying to make it look like she was alive and well when her family already knew she wasn't. As Travis put it, this was the match that lit this whole thing on fire. In other words, this was the moment when everything shifted for the family. Jasmine wasn't just missing. Someone was actively manipulating the narrative, rewriting her story in real time.
- [31:33]
Travis Pace
Is this the photo that I just showed you?
- [31:36]
Cody Womp
Yes, it is.
- [31:36]
Travis Pace
Is that your daughter? Does she have tattoos on her arm, on her shoulder? In that photo? Mr. Pace, does that say enjoying Thanksgiving with my baby?
- [31:55]
Cody Womp
It does.
- [31:57]
Travis Pace
And you now know when that was posted from Facebook, she was dead. Is that right? And you now know that at this point in time, he had her phone, didn't he? Nothing further, Judge.
- [32:29]
Sarah Reed
You know, during sequestration, I had a lot of time to think. And honestly, I kept wishing I had a speaker so that I could just listen to a great book. That's why I love audiobooks. Whether I'm driving, walking the dogs, or traveling, I can just press play and get lost in an amazing story anytime and anywhere. One of my all time favorites is New York by Edward Rutherford. This epic historical novel spans over 400 years, following generations of families through the city's most pivotal moments, from its Dutch settlement days and all the way to 9 11. It was one of the first audiobooks I had ever listened to. It felt like the narrator was reading the story just for me. I was completely hooked. Here's some good news. You can listen to New York or any other book for free. Audible is giving sequestered listeners a free audiobook with a 30 day trial. Just go to audibletrial.com sequestered that's one free book, yours to keep forever. So find something you love and get listening. Go to audibletrial.com sequestered as we sat there listening to Travis walk through how the family pieced all of this together, how they knew without a doubt that Jasmine would never post something like that, it was one of the clearest windows we got into who Jason Chen really was. This wasn't just about hiding evidence. This was about control. Even after Jasmine was gone, Jason was still trying to control the narrative and manipulate how the world saw her. Once Travis finished his testimony, Judge Patterson let the jury ask questions. This was the part where we could write down anything we still wanted to know. The judge and attorneys would review the questions and if they were appropriate, he would ask them directly to the witness right there in open court. There was something incredibly human about this part of the process. It wasn't lawyers trying to make a point. It was us regular people, a jury of peers, trying to understand what really happened that night and trying to make sense of the choices Travis and the rest of Jasmine's family. Family made in those desperate hours. The first question was simple. How well did Travis even know Jason? Did he know they were dating? Had Jasmine ever mentioned him directly? Travis admitted that Jasmine had never brought Jason up to him, but she had talked about him to other people she trusted. And Travis knew they'd been close enough to take a trip to Chicago together recently.
- [35:30]
Cody Womp
How did you know Jason Shim was Jasmine's boyfriend? I didn't necessarily know that it was her boyfriend. I knew that they had been speaking his name, had been spoken about, and that they knowingly went on a trip to Chicago together and that his name was relevant. We knew they were at least somehow close enough to take a trip to Chicago. More than that, I wasn't aware how much more they were dating or not dating, at least enough to go to Chicago.
- [36:18]
Sarah Reed
Another juror wanted to understand exactly how they got into Jason's apartment. Travis explained that he forced the handle, physically breaking the mechanism to get the door open. Once inside, he unlocked it so that they can come in and out freely. And then came my question. The dumpster. Did anyone in your Party check it that night, and if so, what did they find?
- [36:46]
Cody Womp
Did anyone in your party search the dumpster area on the night of 1126 27? Do you recall if anyone saw particles of clothing or sanitary pad? Yes, we did. We. We did. On that night and for the next. I'm sorry to interrupt. Say you did search the dumpster area or you did see the article, the clothing, sanitary pad for. Both. Both. Okay. We did search. And we did see both. Yes. Was Katrina Pace ever inside the apartment at the same time you were? Yes, I believe she was. Were you present when any items were taken from the apartment? If so, what do you recall being collected? Were you present when any items were taken from the apartment? No, I was not present for that. Did you take anything from apartment 210? No, I did not. Possibly, and I really don't recall.
- [37:54]
Sarah Reed
Possibly.
- [37:55]
Cody Womp
We would have on the very next entrance, right after the police had left. And we kind of all concluded that their help was going to be less than expedient. And we may have actually grabbed all of her IDs and stuff at that exact moment, but it's a blur.
- [38:20]
Sarah Reed
This wasn't a forensic team with gloves and evidence bags. These were parents, terrified and exhausted, looking for anything that could be a clue. Another question from the jury to Travis Pace was if he smelled marijuana in Jason Chen's apartment that night. Travis said that he didn't smell. Smell anything, but he remembered a bong sitting on the computer stand with a baggie beside it. And even though Travis wasn't sure that was relevant to Jasmine's disappearance, he pointed it out to the police anyway. Finally, we asked Travis what the bed looked like when he first walked in. He said it was messy, unmade, with pillows and blankets rumpled and some clothing thrown on top. Nothing dramatic, but it painted a picture of an apartment where something had happened in a hurry. The next witness was Johnny Lawrence, a private investigator and crime scene expert from right here in Nashville, Tennessee. His specialty, crime scene reconstruction and blood stain analysis. His job was to examine the evidence, document it, analyze it, and piece together the order of events based on what the scene itself revealed. A little side note here. Johnny Lawrence was kind of all over the place. He was presented as the defense's expert witness, but unlike the state's experts, his credibility wasn't immediately accepted. The prosecution and defense argued back and forth, forth in front of us about whether Lawrence's opinions should even be allowed as expert testimony. That's because under Tennessee law, for someone to testify as an expert, their opinions have to substantially assist the jury in understanding the evidence. It took at least 30 minutes for Judge Patterson to decide whether he could even be entered as an expert witness. At one point, we were asked to leave the room while they debated it. Here's a clip of Weiss arguing for him to be entered.
- [40:30]
Cody Womp
Their opinion is this. So that's. There is flexibility in there. I'm not asking for an absolute certainty of anything. I think the flexibility comes from. To the reasonable degree. But your opinion has to be something more than speculation. Just so you know. So the Dr. Coswell talked about the position of the body when. When killed. That is something that the. That experts find about the Dr. Cogswell find on the crime scene. In general, while he did not testify that Ms. Ace was shot or handcuffed because he was excluded from that, the state made those implications that. That she was. Mr. Lawrence can testify regarding the state of the body. When found. He can testify regarding kind of the same things that Dr. Co saw. Then there is with investigator Crawford and the CSI team. One of the arguments is this is the most blood that they have ever seen. Our argument, our rebuttal, is they're not seeing just blood. What we're seeing is the cleaning materials that we talked about that all of these people that have contaminated the seed. So yes, the record is probably right. I have one on contamination. But. But it's not just blood that would get trapped throughout the apartment. It would be in the cleaning materials too. And he can opine on that as well. Then one of the most serious things and one of the most important things that we need Mr. Moore to specify about is how the Chinese are part of the crunchy investigation, collected evidence, and more importantly. And what's going to come out through Mr. Lawrence are pieces of evidence, specifically one piece of evidence that CPD still doesn't know about. So it's important for me to be able to introduce that through this witness.
- [42:28]
Sarah Reed
When we returned to the courtroom, Johnny Lawrence was still on the stand. Judge Patterson ruled that we would hear his testimony, but he made it clear, clear it was just one expert's opinion, not fact. Lawrence was sworn in, and we were ready to hear what he had to say. Unlike the state's experts, Lawrence wasn't involved from the start. He was hired by the defense in early December 2020, two weeks after the initial investigation. That meant he wasn't present for either of the two searches of apartment 210. Instead, he relied on reviewing law enforcement's photographs and visiting the scene himself. On December 9, he described walking into the apartment, noting how the main room was dark, illuminated by an eerie blue tinted light. He took his own photos, conducted his own tests and quickly formed his opinion this crime scene had been contaminated. I'm going to be honest, Lawrence's testimony was a bit painful to sit through. He struggled to clarify whether his statements were conclusions, theories or just opinions. At one point, Judge Patterson had to step in.
- [43:48]
Cody Womp
Here's what I had Mr. Lyson left Fleshes out more details he wants to as far as opinions of his witness as an expert Mike testified to. I've got. His opinion is that nothing can show where she died. However, a big part of the incident took place in the bedroom. As far as the investigation, more blue star should have have been applied and also the scene was contaminated multiple times were brought in and left out. So those are the opinions that I have as far as this expert witness perhaps providing to the jury. If there's something I've missed, something you want to explain more. That's perfect, go ahead. One correction on that, sir. Blue star. Not that normal blue star needed to be added, but different types of techniques after the blue star. And that's where the glucose crispr vitamin comes in. So there's other tests. There's other tests.
- [44:45]
Sarah Reed
Despite the confusion, Mr. Lawrence pressed on. He detailed his examination of Jason Chen's apartment, describing blood stains, transfer stains and impact stains that suggested potential contamination. Using digital crime scene photos, he enhanced images to reveal new details, including what he believed to be a blood transfer stain on a maroon sheet, possibly from Jasmine Pace's hand. But discrepancies started to emerge. Lawrence pointed out differences between police body cam footage and the crime scene photos later taken, indicating that items had been moved after officers arrived. He also highlighted the challenges of interpreting blood spatter patterns, noting that contamination could have come from multiple sources, Jason Chen, law enforcement, or even the initial investigation itself. To his credit, Lawrence never claimed to have all the answers. He didn't say this is exactly how Jasmine died and this is exactly what happened in apartment 210. In fact, he repeatedly emphasized that he couldn't reach any absolute conclusions beyond a reasonable doubt, which ironically, is the state's job. Judge Patterson even reminded him of that. Still, while Lawrence couldn't offer definitive answers, he did form theories, educated guesses based on the patterns and traces left behind. One of those theories, blood wasn't just present in one area. It had been moved, tracked and smeared across different parts of the apartment, suggesting that after Jasmine was injured theory, there was movement. For us as jurors, this put us in a strange position on One hand, we had an expert telling us that gaps existed in the investigation, that key evidence may have been missed. But on the other hand, even he admitted that he couldn't say with certainty what happened in that apartment. And that left us with more questions than answers. Here's Latricia Thomas from News Channel 9 sharing a wrap up of day six in the courtroom.
- [47:08]
D
Images of the day came from this. A maroon sheet that was found in Jason Chen's apartment. But how it was found and in what direction and in what specific part of the bed remains to be seen. And that's when. Because what Johnny Lawrence testified himself about, which is the changing in the crime scene from the first time Chattanooga police officers went in with their body cameras on, which would have been November 27, in the early morning hours after Pace's mother and father called them there, to when those crime scene photos were later taken by CSI investigators from the Chattanooga Police Department. Now, we've seen these images before in hearings about this case. Let's take a little bit of a look about what some of them show. We're not going to show all of them to you. You can see here in these comparison images, they're pointing out a few different things. They're saying a door was closed. Again, these were. There's a lapse of several days in between these two different items there on the floor, the blind position is different. And then if you can see in the right hand image, there's a pair of underwear that's on the floor that isn't there in the first image. Another thing that the prosecution brought up on cross examination of Mr. Lawrence was the direction and the shape of these supposed handprint blood transfers there. They pointed out, if you look at that first big spot there, that could be a finger, the edge is very straight. And the prosecution asked Mr. Lawrence, if you have a handprint, is the edge of it usually straight? Well, let me just read you the, the transcription of the testimony there. This is homicide investigator Paul Moyle from the prosecutor's office. He asked Lawrence, isn't it possible, sir, that what we actually see on the screen is not a bloody handprint or bloody fingerprints, but where the cloth that had been folded over and the transfer happened that way. And then Mr. Lawrence answers, not necessarily, because you have to understand what this stain is showing is variants of the fingers that have blood on them. And then, then we don't know how much blood was on there, if this was a hand. So again, on cross examination, the prosecution getting Lawrence to say that he's not sure that it was a hand either. So a lot of doubt about what we were actually seeing in some of these photographs raised, and something I thought was very interesting. Again, we've been talking in this case about how the jury is allowed to ask questions of the witnesses after the state and the defense are done. And the judge, Judge Boyd Patterson, has actually commended the jury on how good of notes they're taking and how specific their questions are. So one juror asks about the items that are moved in the apartment. Again, these items from Mr. Lawrence's own report. So the judge reads, reads the jury question there at the end. Do you think it's possible that Jason Chin moved items on November 27 after the body cam footage was filmed? Since cellular records, again, this is from earlier testimony in the week show him in that same area later in the day. So a cell phone expert who extracted the locations of Jason Chin testified earlier in this week that he was in the same location of Tremont street later on the 27th. And then this is kind of where this all comes down. The expert witness, Mr. Lawrence, says, there's nothing that gives me any information about who the items he's talking about. There's nothing to lock in who it was.
- [51:16]
Sarah Reed
Day six of the trial gave us more than just testimony. It gave us a timeline of desperation. We heard from Jasmine's father, Travis Pace, who physically forced his way into Jason Chen's apartment, driven not by protocol but by panic. He wasn't looking for evidence. He was looking for his daughter. We heard from Courtney, the downstairs neighbor, who unknowingly became the ear witness to Jasmine's final moment. Moments hearing a scream, the chase and sobs that would later haunt us all. And we heard from Johnny Lawrence, a private investigator who was brought in too late. His job was to reconstruct a crime scene that had already been trampled through by family, by law enforcement, and by Jason himself. What Lawrence gave us wasn't certainty. It was a list of what ifs. And that was the defense's entire case. Three witnesses. None of them did much to help their argument. And then, just like that, they were done. After all the buildup, all the motions and all the attempts to poke holes in the state's case, the defense rested with Johnny Lawrence as their final witness. No bombshell revelations, no airtight alibis. Just speculation, discrepancies, and a forensic expert who wasn't even there when the evidence was collected. For a case of this magnitude, it felt underwhelming. Next time on Sequestered.
- [53:01]
Travis Pace
Victims Matter. Jasmine Pace is not just some girl listed in an autopsy report. She is not the photos that you have seen. She is a person. She had family that loved her. She was a friend. She was a granddaughter. Please don't minimize this trial to the trial for him.
- [53:26]
Sarah Reed
As the trial nears its end, the the prosecution and defense make their final gripping arguments. Was Jason Chen's crime a calculated act of murder or a moment of uncontrolled passion? That's next on episode eight. Thank you for listening to Sequestered A juror's perspective on the murder trial for Jasmine Pace. Each episode brings us closer to understanding the trial, the people involved, and the weight of seeking justice. If this story speaks to you, please follow, share and continue the conversation with us. Jasmine's story deserves to be remembered. This is a BP production. The show is written, written, edited and produced by me, Sarah Reed with co production by Andrea Clyde. News clips featured in this episode were sourced From WTVC News, Channel 9, Local 3 News Chattanooga and the Law and Crime Network. Music and sound design are curated to reflect the gravity and sensitivity of this story and with the intent to honor Jasmine, her family and the community affected by her death. For more information or to connect with us, visit sequesteredpod.com or follow us on Instagram equestriedpod. Thank you for listening. Until next time, stay curious and stay safe.